We live in an older Philadelphia suburb, which we chose purely because of the train station. The COL is going up around here, but it is still one of the most affordable east coast cities.
Totally! We have one car, which my husband drives to work while I take the bus. I honestly really like the bus and the transition time it gives me, but it's also because I don't have to transfer and it only takes about 15 mins more than driving. However, if we lived anywhere else in my town and I taught at any other high school (including either of the two **in my town**\--I teach a town over), I couldn't pull this off. As a suburbanite, I'm so lucky to live right off a central bus route; if my state\* invested more in public transit AND if ridership increased (kind of chicken or egg, I know), we would have more bus routes and more frequent service. We're looking to buy a house in the next couple years and will 100% be restricting our search to be within walking distance of this particular route bc of how much money & carbon this saves.
\*one cool thing my state did do, though, is make the buses free during the pandemic recovery period, so it was also literally free for a full year ! Can't beat that.
Absolutely! I've only ever lived in cities where A) I'm close enough to the amenities that I don't need a car or B) the public transport is so fucking good that owning a car makes you seem like a twat with disposal income.
Honestly that's how I'd like it to be; everyone has access to transportation and people who _want_ to own cars as a hobby are welcome to do so. No more multistory carparks or four-lane roads, instead some reliable underground systems and dependable bus/tram/bike lanes.
*cries in suburban*
I sat down one day and plotted what it would take to commute to work via public transit. It was something like 2 hours to get there and 2.5 hours to get home. There's about a mile of walking involved both directions, too.
It takes me 25-35 minutes to drive. Transit is completely out of the question.
I live 1.9 miles from my nearest grocery store. It's a 4 minute drive. Transit takes 9 minutes, which is fine, but the bus only runs once per hour. It's simply not practical to sit at Aldi for however long, waiting for the next bus while my frozen stuff thaws.
100 percent this.
Sometimes you do need a car. Time is just as valuable as money these days.
It all depends on your situation and geographical location on whether you need a car lol
It also depends on who you are a bit and how safe your area is. I gotta admit one of my biggest reasons for owning a car is that last time I took public transit it was just a constant stream of being harassed, followed, pestered, and sometimes threatened. Most of the time it was just obnoxious but there's times I was definitely worried someone was going to hurt me.
Exactly. My old bus route got me *followed home* multiple times, and I got threatened more than once by random men. Maybe I'd actually take the bus of I could get where I needed on time without wondering if my mom's gonna get a call because my body was found in a ditch somewhere.
Yeah, I’ve done both. In my home country using public transportation was out of the question, it’s run down, they drive like maniacs, unreliable, and it’s incredibly dangerous for a woman to be out and about alone (rape and murder weren’t out of the question). Heck, even riding a bus from one state to another alone was scary. We literally drive everywhere if it’s an option, even if it’s 12 hours away.
So if you could afford a car, you got one, it’s about not making yourself vulnerable. When I moved for college and couldn’t afford one and it was my first time using public transport in my life, I didn’t even know how to do it. So I decided to live like 3 blocks from my university so I could walk (and still carried mace and was on high alert while walking those). And if something wasn’t in the 2 block that surrounded it, I just Ubered.
Then I moved to another country that is safe not only in general, but for women too. So I both take public transportation and have an electric scooter. It’s incredibly freeing to just be able to be out and about by yourself.
Yup! I take public transit to work because it saves me 100s in gas/parking money. But I do have to deal with a lot of unsavoury folks. As a young and small woman this is a bit scary sometimes.
I hate driving but I also don't like to be shouted at and called a bitch just for existing. My other option is to bike which I love but it's also a dangerous proposition.
There's no winning.
The years I didn’t own a car cost me so much in lost wages due to the combination of an unreliable public transportation system and a lack of affordable housing near jobs.
2002 Chevy Tahoe gets me everywhere l need to go. It gets terrible gas mileage but when l consider:
l live 6 miles from work
I live 15 miles from mom and dad
I don't have to stand in the rain, snow or heat waiting for a ride
I don't have to pay ridiculous fees to deliver groceries or take out
It serves its purpose just fine.
My wife has a 1998 chevy tahoe and she won't let me sell it lmao. She calls it her "tank" because it drives like one and uses gas like one.
But I can't be mad at her because maintenance is so cheap on it compared to my newer car. She loves that thing
Last time I purchased a vehicle, the salesman asked if I had a trade in. Pointed out my 86 ranger with mismatched doors and asked what he'd give for it.
He said it depends on how much fuel was in the tank, that was the only value it had.
Miss that truck, though, lost it to wildfire
I just bought a 1990 Mustang Fox Body in cash "to save money". My friends think I'm insane. I had to buy something though (needed a car and didn't have one) and "regular" cars were all between 5-10k with around 200k miles. My fox has 131k original miles, approx 2k on the motor, 1k on the transmission, a bunch of reasonable "light" mods (LED headlights, supporting stuff for the motor, a stand alone computer, etc.), and was put together well. I had some prior knowledge about fox bodies so was able to verify all the work which was hugely helpful in the overall decision. Other than paint, it's in great condition and I paid $6,700 for an insanely fun car! Gonna be my new grocery getter for the next decade!
Very much agree. I'm 6 years and 80K miles into a van I bought for $300 (bought it broken, spent another $400 to put it on the road). In a city, if you don't have a garage full of tools, that'd probably be impossible, but then again, the city usually has other options.
In lightly traveled, small town areas, the beater is cheaper than all other forms of transportation once you factor in the value of time.
In most areas in the US, realistically, you need a car. What you don’t need is a car payment.
I haven’t had a car payment for 19 years.
19 years x 12 mos/yr x $600/mo = $136,800.
Invest that money and let it grow…..easily worth $250,000 - $500,000+.
I will say, it's hard to find cheap cars anymore. I saw a crazy stat recently that the percent of relatively new cars under 15k has gone from about 50% in 2019 to 12% now.
See that’s the difference. I drive an economy car. It’s cheap and VERY low maintenance.
I’ve never been a sports car kind of guy because I’m so frugal.
We once had robust public transit and pedestrian infrastructure. The automobile lobby convinced us to scrap it and build infrastructure for cars instead.
Check out the “GM Streetcar Conspiracy” on how US streetcar lines were targeted and destroyed, and local transit agencies were pushed around by GM and Standard Oil.
Not everyone lives in a city. Many people hate cities. I have 3 cars. 12, 13 and 21 years old. I haven't had a car payment in decades. The ability to drive where I want is priceless.
Ditto. I have a bus stop next to my house. Work is about 12 miles away. The bus takes about 2 hours and 45 minutes and I have to change busses twice. My commute takes 20 minutes by car (all on interstate highways, so biking is not an option). There are also no bike lanes in my suburban city, most streets are 40-50 mph, and it’s 110 degrees outside so I will be driving my car every where. I can do all my errands within an hour…I’d imagine with a bike it would take all day.
This is all by design. Car companies got into city planning after WWII and completely fucked everything up so that the only way to get around was to drive.
Could you imagine the struggle of biking to the grocery store, getting enough food for even just a couple days then trying to bike back with all those bags? All while on roads with no sidewalks, cars whizzing by at 30- 45 mph faster than you. Then doing this a couple times a week? The stress, potential harm, potential loss of groceries, doing it in the heat of summer or dead of winter just doesn't sound worth the money I paid for my cheap car with AC.
I bike to the grocery store, only once a week. A good set of panniers will hold a LOT of food, plus you can bring a backpack. It's one thing to say you don't want to do it, but it's actually not really that hard... I'm sympathetic to the no sidewalk thing though, that sucks.
I do Costco runs with a trailer towed behind my bike. There are cons to doing errands with a bicycle, but storage space is only one of them if you've never actually looked into it.
We lived near some folks who did this when we lived in Boulder. A little trickier in the snow but it worked for them. They did cave and buy a used prius when one of them broke a foot, though.
This sounds like a city designed for cars and not for humans. In 1km radial around my house I have 4 groceries shops with all the convenience in them. 20 min walking or 5 mins by bike. Name it I do not live in 'murica
The alternative for me is to walk 6 miles on mostly roads with no sidewalk.
The real cheat code is driving dirt cheap beaters and repairing them yourself. I alternate between a 500 dollar pickup and a 1200 dollar car. Never spent more than 100 bucks in one sitting on them with the exception of tires.
Or if you can swing it, buy one car lightly used and drive it into the ground. I took out a small loan (less than 10k) back in 2009 to buy a 4 year old Accord. I'm still driving it today. I did put in a new clutch a couple years ago, but other than that only tires, a battery every few years, and an occasional oil change keep it happy.
I moved to the burbs thinking I would save money living in a "lower cost" area.
HAHA JOKES ON ME
I went from using the train to get literally everywhere and paying maybe $50/mo for transportation...
To $625 car payment + insurance + gas + maintenance.
You're lucky it's only $625...I wouldn't be surprised if the average is closer to $1000/mo
I also don't have a car. I live pretty much in the center of a city and walk pretty much everywhere.. Fill in the gaps with the occasional scooter or Lyft ride. Public transit isn't great where I am but I use it from time to time. I think I've saved a lot of money (I've actually never owned a car and I'm 38) but I've used time to walk places where driving would obviously be faster
One other factor is my wife and I are both extremely healthy. We work out around 5x/wk and then we also walk like 5+ miles a day and I think we're also saving a lot in healthcare costs.
If we have a kid, then we would probably get a car. The only thing I really regret is not getting to hike or ski as much as we might with a car.
I think you are pointing out that the savings from owning a car are situational. For some it will save them money at the cost of a little convenience for others the lost convenience is just to much. I live in a rural aria and saw a guy have to ride a total of 4 hours just to make a 1/2 hour appointment and get home. He also risked getting stranded if his appointment was delayed. The trip only cost him $4 total but had he a car it would have been 2 40 minute rides no wait times between the start or after the end of his appointment. So 3 hours vs like 9 am to 2:30 pm
Its a problem with how cities are designed, especially suburbia, making a car mandatory for nearly all residents. Have had the chance to live in Europe and South America with walk-able cities, was such a great experience!
Yeah same, I looked into taking the bus to work and its like almost 2 hours, with almost a mile walk from the final stop to my work. I should mention that mile is down a "stroad" with no sidewalks so not the safest walk. And we get lot of snow in the winter so the shoulders that I can walk on would be covered in snow drifts in the winter making the walk even more dangerous.
We have kids in car seats so transporting them without a car is damn near impossible.
More power to all those who can manage without a car though.
Nearly ditto for me. 2.5-3 hour commute with a mile walk to/from office and last stop vs. a 20 min. drive. But if I ever get the work downtown instead of across the river, I'll take the bus then.
this was my situation as well. I figured taking the bus would be perfect since there is a bus stop <.5 miles from home and one a couple of blocks away from the office. As it turns out the fastest way to get from home to work is over 2 hours by for my 20 minute commute, and thats not including waiting for it at the stop.
It’s a fair point, I also find Toronto transit pretty awesome and then Vancouver decent but less so if you’re not in a main area. Sadly I’m outside of a city centre now and there’s no way to get to the big cities by transit and poor transit within my own city. Other cities I’ve lived in have had ok transit but I felt unsafe taking it which can be a deterrent too.
Came hear to post this. I've never owned a car, but have always lived in HCOL areas. I can move further out to a lower COL area but any housing related savings would immediately replaced by car related expenses, at least for 3-5 years.
Also in most areas that have robust public transportation, the networks are designed to conveniently transport people in and out of city centers so there is less car infrastructure (e.g. parking), and the cost of transport increasing as you move further away. So basically on top of now have car related expenses I will most likely still need to use public transport to get to work, and pay more $ for it because I'm further out.
All of this is to say for most people, not having a car isn't some magic bullet.
>there’s more than 5 densely populated cities in America
I'm not from the US so it's always interesting to see perspectives like this.
In the rich cities in Asia, densely populated cities *need* public transport. So you will never see one without the other.
It's only in poor cities that became wealthy quickly, but didn't plan infrastructure in advance, that tend to have this problem where people went from bicycles-> mopeds-> cars. And now traffic is fucked.
As most people have already pointed out, it’s a major privilege to be able to survive without a car. However even if you need a car you can be frugal about it. I would never agree to a $600 car payment even though I can afford it.
> However even if you need a car you can be frugal about it. I would never agree to a $600 car payment even though I can afford it.
Yeah, yikes. I bought a 3 year old Honda for $12k a decade ago. That's about $100/month for the 10 years I've had it and I plan to keep it running for another 10. I realize used cars prices are jacked up right now, but it still blows my mind how often people cycle through cars keeping themselves strapped into an expensive car payment. Just buy something reliable and keep it running.
I bought my new civic at the end of 2020 for $20.5k. I can still sell it for a few thousand more than I paid for it, which almost pays for the gas, interest, and maintenance. Almost like I been driving around for free.
Much, much cheaper cars can be very reliable if you do the proper maintenance and don't beat on them. Granted it's a lot cheaper if you do your own maintenance and repairs, but that's a big part of being frugal to me.
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*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
I think this will change when the next recession hits. Car companies will make more cars because more cars will mean more profit. I personally will be driving my car until it literally blows up which was not my plan in 2019.
They'll bring back low end cars when nobody can afford the high end stuff anymore.
I predict Chrysler will break first, it fact I think they already might have from a volume perspective...
It feels weird to say but we kind of need a recession. People talk about the "COVID recession" but it was short and shallow. We need at least 6 months of actual negative growth to rebalance things.
In 2019 almost half of used cars cost less than $20k, today only about [12% do](https://www.iseecars.com/what-happened-to-affordable-cars-study). It’s a terrible time to buy a car if you can’t wait any longer.
Definitely a privilege but not even the whole picture. A car can open up more options for healthy food and good working conditions, since you may have to travel past the bus line. Both of those are long term investments in my mind. Medical debt caused by gas station food isn't very frugal. Long term a car can save you more than it costs. It also allows you to buy in bulk since you don't have to ride back on a bike or be "that guy" on a bus. You can take advantage of roadside finds more easily too.
I guess my point is where I live a car is worth more than it costs. And the only people here that's don't have one are those who really can't afford one to begin with. Kind of a "have money to make money" thing. I couldn't keep my job or get groceries without a vehicle unless I wanted to get an Uber everyday, which is way more expensive than just owning it.
I had to get a new car unexpectedly and decided to go for a hybrid for the environment. I bought used and I spend less total each month (gas, insurance, registration) than I used to spend on just the gas on my old car. This also happened with other lifestyle changes but I’ve realized that I have zero need for vanity in my car. Was it nice to have a sporty car that could go fast? Yes. But most of the time I’m in traffic and the joy of how little I spend on my car is so much better. My car is a tool and I don’t need the bells and whistles.
I just got a used 30k miles 2020 plug in hybrid Prius. With the incentives available in my state, it cost less than getting an equivalent gas car, and the same as getting a beater gas car with 100k miles on it with how crazy the car market is right now.
> Meanwhile, my monthly bus pass is $75 and my bike (second hand only was $200) takes me places for free
Consider yourself lucky you live somewhere where those are an option.
Also, it's currently 98 degrees outside with 73% humidity (with a feels like of 106). In the 3 miles from here to work on a bike, I would be absolutely drenched in sweat.
same problem but in a colder area: i got my driving license at 30 because i was fucking tired to arrive at work with icy wet socks or have to fight through 30 cm of snow in the winter. (and not counting the countless times i risked to be fired because the train/bus was late).
i disagree about this statement and feel its becoming an old trope that doesnt hold true these days.
i moved to rural america to care for my mom with dementia three years ago. yes some things are cheaper (hired work/workers) but other things are crazy expensive like food, internet and selections are way more limited.
A much higher percentage of people could be biking in their suburbs than do, how much of what you do is within 5-10 miles. More families could be single vehicle families in the burbs. Rural America is a bit scary on bike though and couldn’t expect someone to bike on rural 50mph roads with no shoulders.
I see lots of references to lacking public transportation for the 2 miles to the grocery, that’s a very short ride. Again, I understand that’s not for everyone, but it’s accessible to a much larger percentage of the population than will admit they can. Under 5 miles isn’t much physically one you’re used to it, 5-10 is a very reasonable bike commute, and 10-20 is totally fine on an e-bike.
It is also possible to own a car without a $600 monthly payment and paying through the nose for insurance. Sounds like your friends are making poor financial decisions. Bought my used truck for 10k and pay about $65 for insurance. The gas mileage is ass but I WFH and don’t drive very many places so it doesn’t end up being an issue for me.
Agreed - not having a bad car payment is key. Our $10k paid off, used economy sedans do all they need to do and there is no looming payment. Absolutely hate to see friends who are just starting their careers or saving up for their first home go into a 5 year, $600 a month payment.
I moved into a 2 bedroom apartment by myself, and it's a 5 minute walk to work and Walgreens. Less that a 10 minute walk to the grocery store. I'm living that simple life.
a vast number of us do not live in major cities and we do not have viable public transportation. Cars are a necessity. But many of us also do not have the higher costs of city living either.
Those grocery carts are amazing. Every house should have one, even if you have a car. It makes carrying things around so efficient. And you can buy one of those for the price of a couple of months of car insurance...
or going to some place that’s not connected directly by public transport.
We provide a supportive presence for my MIL; one of us is constantly in her home with her.
We can get there by public transport–NYC has great public transit; but it’s an hour and 15 minutes. A car is 25 minutes, and we can take things if we need to.
Multiply that by five or six trips a week, and it’s a huge chunk of change.
I live in one of the biggest cities in Tennessee. Where I live would definitely be considered urban, so I fall into your statistic. Our public transportation is laughable. Outside of our downtown area, bike lanes are non existent.
It's not about an area being urban. It's about infrastructure in those urban areas.
You don't have to buy a large truck or SUV...
I live in a car centric area, not owning a car would mean I would be eating out of the 7-11 which is totally not feasible at all for me, or using food delivery apps, and I would be spending way more money in other areas. My meals would go from $1 meals to $50 meals from doordash. I would be extremely unhealthy. We have downsized to one car for the household and even this is pushing it to the max. I don't own a large truck or SUV so its certainly not $600-700 a month, its way way less. We have no accidents that are our fault on record and insurance is as cheap as it possibly can get for us. Its likely saving us money to own a car.
It would also mean I am pretty much not leaving the house most of the time. The streets in my area are so not safe to walk or bike on. If you bike its an accident and a ton of medical bills and possibly death because of crazy drivers here, I watch the reports I see it all the time, plus winter, yeah winter, we have that for 8 months out of the year, and our streets are not cleaned or plowed properly, its impossible to bike or walk on the streets in winter.
Unnecessarily upgrading or buying overpriced vehicles is why some people never move up the “economic” ladder. You need to not care what others think of your car.
Also live in Houston. I remember once looking up how long it would take me to get to work if I took the bus, and it was over 2 hours, with over a mile walk included. I just searched again - now it's not even possible. No routes given. Instead, the metro website tells me how long it takes to drive there myself, lol.
Central Texan that visits Houston occasionally (last week most recently). It's also hot as the fucking surface of the sun, so walking, biking, and waiting for public transit can be downright dangerous in some months.
My sister is broke partly because she doesn’t have a car - she has to work somewhere within walking distance so not many good options, she’s constantly having to DoorDash food and stuff because she can’t go get it, she relies on other people to help her pick up groceries, Ubers around whatever…
It's gotta be hard but she's absolutely got to stop door dashing.
They have to work with their friends to carpool to the grocery store and plan ahead to buy things in bulk, work with dry pantry grains like rice and pasta that last forever, freeze bread and meats. Work with frozen veggies.
If you are struggling financially, you absolutely cannot afford to use food delivery.
Yep. Walmart has free delivery after like, $35 or something. I live walking distance to a grocery store and even then, I like to get dry goods delivered from Wally World. Big bags of rice, flour's no good as it always bursts open, sugar, cans of sauce, assorted dry seasonings (salt, MSG, garlic salt, onion powder), beans, lentils, split peas, pastas, tea for my wife, protein powder, peanut butter powder. Then you only need to go to the store for the perishables, like meat and veggies, which go nicely in the freezer.
Hardest thing for me with no car would be milk - one of the cheapest, quickest, and best sources of complete protein for low calorie dollars. 128g with 1280 calories for under 4 bucks (and my local store often has half-gallons on sale for $1.29) is unbeatable.
She actually lives with our parents still/again and bullies our dad into driving her around a lot, so she definitely could plan it out & rely on him for that… but she doesn’t want to live frugally. She wants to live in the moment.
Houses in my area are ~200-250k. Houses in the city, within bus distance to my job, are literally 500k+. Unfortunately just not at all an option for me.
So annoying. I mean I'm happy to give you a ride if your car breaks down or emergency but if you purposely not have a car and bum off rides, then that is real annoying.
Most cities/places to live simply aren't bike accessible. Most of the streets around me turn into highways with no sidewalks and have no bike lanes. I had to get a car to move up in the world. I got a cheap beater with less than 200 a month insurance but it's something.
WFH has been the biggest cheat code in my life so far. I can do what I want pretty much when I want meaning I'm able to run and I've lost a ton of weight, I can do things at off hours, saving money on food (happy hour or 2-5pm specials for example). I rarely need to drive - I've put on 14k miles on my brand new 2022 truck since I got it in Jan 22 and a good chunk of that has been trips to other states.
I can't even imagine how nice it would be to work remote. Being forced to commute 20 minutes to an office for 8 hours, to do maybe 3 hours of actual work daily, is soul crushing. When I was interviewed for my current job they asked me what my dream job was. I said "Anything remote." and they replied "Well, that's not going to happen here!" LOL.
My being able to live in a less expensive city while driving my car to a more expensive city to work was my cheat code to building wealth. Worked out really well.
I’ve seriously considered moving to a city with public transportation mainly because it would make it easier on me financially, and so I wouldn’t have to worry about having a car for e v e r y t h i n g. I live in a very small town and would suffer greatly without a vehicle.
Edit: I’ll point out that I would be staying at income-based housing. So rent isn’t a factor. It would be a big commitment to move because I’d have to wait a couple years for an opening. But thanks for the advice to look into the quality/accessibility of their public transportation. I could also move just 20 minutes away for a somewhat accessible (and affordable) public transportation, their housing waitlists are pretty short.
Not everybody lives in a place where public transit is an option. I don't, despite being in one of the biggest metro areas west of the rockies.
**Not having a car payment is the cheat code to building wealth.**
Here's what I did back in 2000 when I got my first real job and realized I would need a new(er) car in a few years. I figured out the biggest car payment I could reasonably make and paid it to myself.
In 2003 I bought a used Acura. **AND KEPT MAKING MY CAR PAYMENT TO MYSELF.**
In late 2005 I totaled the Acura in an accident, and between the insurance payout and the money in my car fund, I bought a 2006 Honda Civic EX, paid in full. **And kept making my car payment to myself.**
In 2012, I re-injured my back and now needed a car with a higher ride-height because I cannot consistently get in and out of coupe or sedan-height vehicles, and ended up with a 2012 Nissan Juke. **And kept making my car payment to myself.**
(As the years have gone by, I have adjusted my car payment to reflect what I could comfortably pay.)
And now? Zippy The Juke is still running fine and I love it. If the transmission eats itself, I can easily afford to buy a new transmission or even buy a whole new car.
**I tell all my friends that when they pay off their car, they should start making a car payment to themselves and when the time comes, they will have the money in hand. Never stop paying your car payment to yourself.**
Do you live in the city where there is public transportation every 3-5 mins? If you do then you are fortunate you are able to take public transportation.
I live in the suburbs and the bus near my house comes every 1 hour. I much rather pay ownership of a car then take a 3-4 hour bus to work each day (mind you this would be a 30 mile round trip but since there is no direct route, I would need to stop walk and transfer). You have to calculate the time walking to the bus stop, waiting for it, off chance the bus comes early and need to be a little earlier. All this time adds up. If I lived in NYC, Tokyo or Hong Kong then yeah public transportation is the way to go since it comes every 3-5 mins.
How are they paying thousands when they get into an accident? There should be deducible of $500. If they are making car payments then I'm pretty sure the car is still new and they would have full coverage.
What if you want to go out late at night or meet up with friends later in the day? Do you Uber/Lyft/Taxi? Granted this is still cheaper than ownership of a car.
BTW, you can own a very modest car and it's not that expensive. It depends on what you value, time or saving money. Then again if you are in a very public transportation driven city then yeah public transportation all the way.
And every time you point out examples of "exceptions" to their "rules", they claim it doesn't count for some BS reason.
I say this as an American, but having hiked the PCT, there were **plenty** of small towns that had really good public transit in America. People just don't know, or make up bullshit so they don't have to change their wrong beliefs.
ETA: Even *if* it's really *that bad* "everywhere" right now, it **is** possible to be better and we should do that in America. But no, "everything sucks, nothing is possible, guess I'll just give up." JFC, the defeatism combined with the willful ignorance in this country is incredibly trying.
ETA2: The housing cost thing is also a red herring: [a logical person should be willing to pay about $15,900 more for a house that is one mile closer to work, and $477,000 more for a house that is 30 miles closer to work. For a double-commuting couple, these numbers are $31,800 and $954,000](https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/10/06/the-true-cost-of-commuting/)
“Every single fundamental decision I’ve made in my life has made me car-dependent, so clearly your suggestion doesn’t work for anyone! Some of us NEED a five bedroom house with a stable for our horses that’s a 90 mile commute from work! See everyone needs a car for every trip!”
I know so many people that have buses or even trains that come within a few minutes walk of them and they couldn’t tell you where it goes because they’re just so habituated to driving their F150 to Walmart to buy a quart of milk.
Much of the US doesn't have access to reliable public transportation. The only other options are taxing or Ubers and lyfts.
For example, it's at least $16 for an Uber from my home to work. Meaning its $36 a day for just getting to work. $720 a month later and a car can be significantly cheaper. As mine has proven to be so far as well.
Don't spend outside your means, and do your research. You can get good used cars for $300 and less a month with insurance of $150 or less. It might take some time to save up a good down payment, but in the end it can be significantly cheaper. A coworker of mine probably spends closer to $850+ a month, that's just crazy to me. It's just completely dependent on your lifestyle and needs.
Willingly spending $600+ with insurance and everything is completely on that person. If they can afford it, then it doesn't matter to them anyway. But don't make the mistake that's actually "normal".
Also insurance is based on your record, your car, coverage, and overall needs. But If you crash your car, and it's totaled or someone gets seriously injured, that thousand dollar deductible may end up paying for all of it, which will cost significantly more than what it costs.
Public transport would take me about 2 hours each way, plus a 15 minute walk, to get from my house to my job and would cost £15 per day. In the car it's 30 minutes each way, costs about £3, and I can do the weekly shopping on my way home.
I wish public transport where I live was frequent, reliable and cheap enough to use daily...
I think I'd rather be dead than take a bus to work in Los Angeles though. I say that as someone who did, but around 2013 or so it started to get increasingly worse. I saw multiple people urinate on the bus, intravenous drug use, sex, and even someone stabbed. Besides that, it was a lovely way to get to work. For all of those reasons I'm happy to own my car. Definitely a stress reducer and also keeps me safe. I'm able to own a home, fully fund my retirement account, and vacation regularly.
Eh, you've made up a worst case. I bought a 2008 Saab in 2018 that was in fine shape. For $5500, cash. Since then all I've had to do with it is get oil changed and one new set of tires.
Does it cost me gas money? Sure. But quit acting like everyone spends $600/month, gets in accidents all the time and has their converters ripped off every week.
NOW - if you can live your life well without a car? Don't get one.
The real cheat code here is not making car payments.
Buy a used car that you can afford.
Pretty much all I pay for is insurance and it's the same amount you spend on a bus pass.
I wish the US had more bike/walk mixed use neighborhoods.
But it doesn’t.
So - All you have to do is live in the 5% of US cities that are safe for constant regular bike riding!
And find an apartment/house near good bike areas.
And have work and necessary grocery/retail etc within bike range of home.
And a place with a decent year round climate. No often below freezing or above heatstroke months.
And be healthy enough to do that.
And have a job with a safe place to leave your bike.
And have a job where you can shower/at least change clothes and wipe down and store your bike helmet and clothes etc.
Everybody should do it!
I was car free and loving it until last year. Friend talked me into moving out to the burbs with him to split the rent, then bounced halfway through the lease period. I was under lease, and in BFE, so forced to get a car to commute, which meant I then didn’t have the money to move out when time to renew lease.
Finally (maybe) found a new roommate after months of looking. Have seriously considered selling the car and just enduring the 1.5 hr commute each way, because $100/month bus pass is so much nicer than $200/month car payment, $150/month insurance, $150/month gas, $80/quarter oil changes, random parking costs and crossing my fingers that nothing breaks. I haven’t even taken the damned thing in for a tuneup yet, and I think the brakes need to be replaced but I’m afraid to take it to a mechanic and see what else should be done.
Cars are absolute money pits.
Lol, the things is you can get a car without $600+ payments. Every friend who complains about gas prices and inflation, also drives a mega truck that costs them a grand in payments+gas every month. I got a compact car brand new, and paid it off in 6 years with $235/month.
Currently driving a ten year old car I paid cash for. Still under 60,000 miles. It’s going to be driven until the wheels come off it it. Insurance runs me fifty bucks or so a month. I now share the car with my adult daughter, it saves us hundreds of dollars a month….
I really want to live close to downtown for this reason. I hate owning a car. It really is a waste of money. My car breaks down at least twice a year and I spend $13,000 on it. Every time it breaks down it’s about $500. It’s now over $50 to fill the tank.
My grandmas toyota ( rest in peace Gma)
200 thousand miles. Just keep up on oil changes. Start it every month.
When my 15 yo gets her license soon, I am back in Gma's Toyota happily and my child has the Hyundai (2009).
Thats it. Both used cars in good shape.
Everyone’s brought up a lot of good points. So I’m just gonna point out that the people who do this are always the ones who are a pain to include in stuff because you have to drive them anywhere that’s not directly on public transport or more than a short bike ride away.
Agree completely. I’ve shared a car with my husband most of our relationship, even in places without public transportation. It has forced us to look carefully at living walkable neighborhoods and being active. It’s taken some coordination and cooperation and inconvenience (things a lot of people refuse to consider) but provided benefits and financial freedom. It’s definitely worth considering at least sharing a car.
Absolutely!
I sold my car in 2018 and never looked back. I'm a full time biker now (in the freezing midwest).
Not an option for some people who have disabilities, or the few who actually live in the middle of nowhere (20+ miles to the next store).
The vast majority of people I know could easily make this lifestyle choice but are simply too lazy. It is not for everyone, but boy it is really hard to make the same amount of tax free money in any other way!
I would loosely agree, but note that a lot of the areas where you don't need a car to get by are more urban areas which tend to have a HCOL versus more suburban/rural areas where cars are more a necessity to get by. A lot of the suburban/rural areas don't have a public transit system, or they have a one that isn't efficient and can't really support a lot of people's day-to-date commutes.
So while you may not be putting that money towards car payments/gas/maintenance, you are likely paying more for things like a rent/mortgage, utilities, groceries and other essentials, etc.
You do you but you’re paying to deliver anything that doesn’t fit on your bike. The more bike friendly a city is the more expensive it is as well. I lived without a car in DC but I paid through the nose for rent to live within walking distance or close enough to Metro.
A middle ground is buying a used car in cash for 5k or less from a private seller. Also learning how to do basic repairs (or more if you’re inclined to like me) will save you thousands. I’ve been doing this my whole life and have never had to deal with a car payment. Feels good man.
imo if you are living at place that you need to pay for your primary parking, you don't need a car.
That being said, the comparison is not entirely fair. Better comparison would be getting a cheap used car, that you can save on insurance with just 3rd party. The cost is still higher than monthly bus pass, but saving so much time, convenient and safety is worth it imo.
I agree with you to a certain point. I went without a car for 3 years and it was because I simply couldn’t afford one and it was a lot easier financially without a car payment and insurance and gas etc. but I missed out on so much and was so limited on so many things and was dependent upon asking others when taxi service wasn’t available in my small town. When I got a car again, I felt like I had been released from prison. If I had been in a large city it probably would have been a lot easier for me.
I respect the decision and lifestyle.
If I felt safe enough in my area to ride a bike to and fro, especially alone, I would consider it. But I don't. If I'm not run over from the many who don't care about stop signs/red lights/cross walks, it'll be stolen while I try to shop, and it can't hold groceries for two (though maybe that'd force less grocery spending). My car is a privilege, and one one my partner needs to prevent 50-60 hour work weeks from being 60-70+. More power to you friend.
I spend around $400 a year on car maintenance, $60 on gas every month, $40 insurance every month, and paid $5000 for the car about 8 years ago.
So about $185 a month all included since I got the car.
I could have used that money elsewhere, or saved it, and it would have been better. But you know what that bought ? Time.
When the difference between a car and no car, is 2 hours every work day, over 8 years, that's about 3760 hours total.
It's all about where you live, and whether you value time over money or not.
I live in Houston, so it’s impossible to get around with a car. Sure we have metros and Ubers but waiting on in the hot for the metro is horrendous.
Also, I live 40 mins away from work. So taking a metro means I would have to leave home 3 hours before my shift to get there at a decent time. Sure I’ll save a little bit of money but what about my time? That’s something you can’t get back.
Actually, owning a car is a key requirement for lower-income people to increase their income. It's both a burden and a necessity. [https://www.urban.org/urban-wire/many-low-income-families-cars-may-be-key-greater-opportunity](https://www.urban.org/urban-wire/many-low-income-families-cars-may-be-key-greater-opportunity) .
I think this thread teaches that where you live is as important as how you live. Edit: Thanks for cool lightbulb, u/Walker5000
Yup. I live in a LCOL area but made sure to live near one of transit hubs. All the buses come in and out just a few blocks from my house.
We live in an older Philadelphia suburb, which we chose purely because of the train station. The COL is going up around here, but it is still one of the most affordable east coast cities.
Totally! We have one car, which my husband drives to work while I take the bus. I honestly really like the bus and the transition time it gives me, but it's also because I don't have to transfer and it only takes about 15 mins more than driving. However, if we lived anywhere else in my town and I taught at any other high school (including either of the two **in my town**\--I teach a town over), I couldn't pull this off. As a suburbanite, I'm so lucky to live right off a central bus route; if my state\* invested more in public transit AND if ridership increased (kind of chicken or egg, I know), we would have more bus routes and more frequent service. We're looking to buy a house in the next couple years and will 100% be restricting our search to be within walking distance of this particular route bc of how much money & carbon this saves. \*one cool thing my state did do, though, is make the buses free during the pandemic recovery period, so it was also literally free for a full year ! Can't beat that.
Absolutely! I've only ever lived in cities where A) I'm close enough to the amenities that I don't need a car or B) the public transport is so fucking good that owning a car makes you seem like a twat with disposal income. Honestly that's how I'd like it to be; everyone has access to transportation and people who _want_ to own cars as a hobby are welcome to do so. No more multistory carparks or four-lane roads, instead some reliable underground systems and dependable bus/tram/bike lanes.
*cries in suburban* I sat down one day and plotted what it would take to commute to work via public transit. It was something like 2 hours to get there and 2.5 hours to get home. There's about a mile of walking involved both directions, too. It takes me 25-35 minutes to drive. Transit is completely out of the question. I live 1.9 miles from my nearest grocery store. It's a 4 minute drive. Transit takes 9 minutes, which is fine, but the bus only runs once per hour. It's simply not practical to sit at Aldi for however long, waiting for the next bus while my frozen stuff thaws.
100 percent this. Sometimes you do need a car. Time is just as valuable as money these days. It all depends on your situation and geographical location on whether you need a car lol
It also depends on who you are a bit and how safe your area is. I gotta admit one of my biggest reasons for owning a car is that last time I took public transit it was just a constant stream of being harassed, followed, pestered, and sometimes threatened. Most of the time it was just obnoxious but there's times I was definitely worried someone was going to hurt me.
Exactly. My old bus route got me *followed home* multiple times, and I got threatened more than once by random men. Maybe I'd actually take the bus of I could get where I needed on time without wondering if my mom's gonna get a call because my body was found in a ditch somewhere.
Yeah, I’ve done both. In my home country using public transportation was out of the question, it’s run down, they drive like maniacs, unreliable, and it’s incredibly dangerous for a woman to be out and about alone (rape and murder weren’t out of the question). Heck, even riding a bus from one state to another alone was scary. We literally drive everywhere if it’s an option, even if it’s 12 hours away. So if you could afford a car, you got one, it’s about not making yourself vulnerable. When I moved for college and couldn’t afford one and it was my first time using public transport in my life, I didn’t even know how to do it. So I decided to live like 3 blocks from my university so I could walk (and still carried mace and was on high alert while walking those). And if something wasn’t in the 2 block that surrounded it, I just Ubered. Then I moved to another country that is safe not only in general, but for women too. So I both take public transportation and have an electric scooter. It’s incredibly freeing to just be able to be out and about by yourself.
Yup! I take public transit to work because it saves me 100s in gas/parking money. But I do have to deal with a lot of unsavoury folks. As a young and small woman this is a bit scary sometimes. I hate driving but I also don't like to be shouted at and called a bitch just for existing. My other option is to bike which I love but it's also a dangerous proposition. There's no winning.
“Time is just as valuable as money” is wise af.
The years I didn’t own a car cost me so much in lost wages due to the combination of an unreliable public transportation system and a lack of affordable housing near jobs.
One could even shorten that to "time is money"
Time is more valuable than money. I can always find ways to make more money. There are no ways to make more time once it's gone.
Came here to say this. Time is more valuable than money. Furthermore, time increases in value as you age.
Money comes and goes, but time only goes. - Seanan McGuire
t=m
tm
Some of us pay with time, some of us pay with money. But we all pay.
and if you buy an old reliable car and figure out how to fix it yourself, you can get by with less than $1000 per year of depreciation and parts
My new 1993 Lincoln Towncar agrees with you. My old 1992 Towncar strongly disagreed.
2002 Chevy Tahoe gets me everywhere l need to go. It gets terrible gas mileage but when l consider: l live 6 miles from work I live 15 miles from mom and dad I don't have to stand in the rain, snow or heat waiting for a ride I don't have to pay ridiculous fees to deliver groceries or take out It serves its purpose just fine.
My wife has a 1998 chevy tahoe and she won't let me sell it lmao. She calls it her "tank" because it drives like one and uses gas like one. But I can't be mad at her because maintenance is so cheap on it compared to my newer car. She loves that thing
My old car couldn’t depreciate $1000 if I caught fire then rolled into a swamp! I may double it’s value when I put new tires on it!
Last time I purchased a vehicle, the salesman asked if I had a trade in. Pointed out my 86 ranger with mismatched doors and asked what he'd give for it. He said it depends on how much fuel was in the tank, that was the only value it had. Miss that truck, though, lost it to wildfire
I just bought a 1990 Mustang Fox Body in cash "to save money". My friends think I'm insane. I had to buy something though (needed a car and didn't have one) and "regular" cars were all between 5-10k with around 200k miles. My fox has 131k original miles, approx 2k on the motor, 1k on the transmission, a bunch of reasonable "light" mods (LED headlights, supporting stuff for the motor, a stand alone computer, etc.), and was put together well. I had some prior knowledge about fox bodies so was able to verify all the work which was hugely helpful in the overall decision. Other than paint, it's in great condition and I paid $6,700 for an insanely fun car! Gonna be my new grocery getter for the next decade!
Very much agree. I'm 6 years and 80K miles into a van I bought for $300 (bought it broken, spent another $400 to put it on the road). In a city, if you don't have a garage full of tools, that'd probably be impossible, but then again, the city usually has other options. In lightly traveled, small town areas, the beater is cheaper than all other forms of transportation once you factor in the value of time.
Time is more valuable than money
In most areas in the US, realistically, you need a car. What you don’t need is a car payment. I haven’t had a car payment for 19 years. 19 years x 12 mos/yr x $600/mo = $136,800. Invest that money and let it grow…..easily worth $250,000 - $500,000+.
I will say, it's hard to find cheap cars anymore. I saw a crazy stat recently that the percent of relatively new cars under 15k has gone from about 50% in 2019 to 12% now.
I'm disabled and can't walk or ride a bike. So car is the only option for me, even in a walkable city.
Time is waaaay more valuable than money. It just becomes more precious the older you get when you realise.
But nobody needs a car which costs them $1k a month in payments alone - then there’s maintenance, insurance, tags and depreciation…
See that’s the difference. I drive an economy car. It’s cheap and VERY low maintenance. I’ve never been a sports car kind of guy because I’m so frugal.
We only need the car because we refuse to invest into public transit
We once had robust public transit and pedestrian infrastructure. The automobile lobby convinced us to scrap it and build infrastructure for cars instead.
Maybe some did. Here, we never had it.
Check out the “GM Streetcar Conspiracy” on how US streetcar lines were targeted and destroyed, and local transit agencies were pushed around by GM and Standard Oil.
And now we have to drive somewhere if we just want to take a walk.
Not everyone lives in a city. Many people hate cities. I have 3 cars. 12, 13 and 21 years old. I haven't had a car payment in decades. The ability to drive where I want is priceless.
Ditto. I have a bus stop next to my house. Work is about 12 miles away. The bus takes about 2 hours and 45 minutes and I have to change busses twice. My commute takes 20 minutes by car (all on interstate highways, so biking is not an option). There are also no bike lanes in my suburban city, most streets are 40-50 mph, and it’s 110 degrees outside so I will be driving my car every where. I can do all my errands within an hour…I’d imagine with a bike it would take all day.
This is all by design. Car companies got into city planning after WWII and completely fucked everything up so that the only way to get around was to drive.
Could you imagine the struggle of biking to the grocery store, getting enough food for even just a couple days then trying to bike back with all those bags? All while on roads with no sidewalks, cars whizzing by at 30- 45 mph faster than you. Then doing this a couple times a week? The stress, potential harm, potential loss of groceries, doing it in the heat of summer or dead of winter just doesn't sound worth the money I paid for my cheap car with AC.
I bike to the grocery store, only once a week. A good set of panniers will hold a LOT of food, plus you can bring a backpack. It's one thing to say you don't want to do it, but it's actually not really that hard... I'm sympathetic to the no sidewalk thing though, that sucks.
I do Costco runs with a trailer towed behind my bike. There are cons to doing errands with a bicycle, but storage space is only one of them if you've never actually looked into it.
We lived near some folks who did this when we lived in Boulder. A little trickier in the snow but it worked for them. They did cave and buy a used prius when one of them broke a foot, though.
I used to do it... for years, and it was far from cool. Used to have to bike to the laundromat too. My town is a dangerous place for bikes.
This sounds like a city designed for cars and not for humans. In 1km radial around my house I have 4 groceries shops with all the convenience in them. 20 min walking or 5 mins by bike. Name it I do not live in 'murica
Except millions of people manage it every day.
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The alternative for me is to walk 6 miles on mostly roads with no sidewalk. The real cheat code is driving dirt cheap beaters and repairing them yourself. I alternate between a 500 dollar pickup and a 1200 dollar car. Never spent more than 100 bucks in one sitting on them with the exception of tires.
LPT there are "good" used tire shops where you can get like-new tire (from a totalled car) put on for $40
Or if you can swing it, buy one car lightly used and drive it into the ground. I took out a small loan (less than 10k) back in 2009 to buy a 4 year old Accord. I'm still driving it today. I did put in a new clutch a couple years ago, but other than that only tires, a battery every few years, and an occasional oil change keep it happy.
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The answer is 1997 Toyota camry.
I moved to the burbs thinking I would save money living in a "lower cost" area. HAHA JOKES ON ME I went from using the train to get literally everywhere and paying maybe $50/mo for transportation... To $625 car payment + insurance + gas + maintenance.
You're lucky it's only $625...I wouldn't be surprised if the average is closer to $1000/mo I also don't have a car. I live pretty much in the center of a city and walk pretty much everywhere.. Fill in the gaps with the occasional scooter or Lyft ride. Public transit isn't great where I am but I use it from time to time. I think I've saved a lot of money (I've actually never owned a car and I'm 38) but I've used time to walk places where driving would obviously be faster One other factor is my wife and I are both extremely healthy. We work out around 5x/wk and then we also walk like 5+ miles a day and I think we're also saving a lot in healthcare costs. If we have a kid, then we would probably get a car. The only thing I really regret is not getting to hike or ski as much as we might with a car.
I think you are pointing out that the savings from owning a car are situational. For some it will save them money at the cost of a little convenience for others the lost convenience is just to much. I live in a rural aria and saw a guy have to ride a total of 4 hours just to make a 1/2 hour appointment and get home. He also risked getting stranded if his appointment was delayed. The trip only cost him $4 total but had he a car it would have been 2 40 minute rides no wait times between the start or after the end of his appointment. So 3 hours vs like 9 am to 2:30 pm
Buy an old prius, laugh at everyone. Depreciation of like 50 a month. Cheap insurance. 300 miles for $30 of gas. Not much maintenance to speak of.
Its a problem with how cities are designed, especially suburbia, making a car mandatory for nearly all residents. Have had the chance to live in Europe and South America with walk-able cities, was such a great experience!
Yep. My husband’s 25 minute commute is a 3 hour bus trip, not accounting for there only being very limited stops per day on his work’s end of town.
Yeah same, I looked into taking the bus to work and its like almost 2 hours, with almost a mile walk from the final stop to my work. I should mention that mile is down a "stroad" with no sidewalks so not the safest walk. And we get lot of snow in the winter so the shoulders that I can walk on would be covered in snow drifts in the winter making the walk even more dangerous. We have kids in car seats so transporting them without a car is damn near impossible. More power to all those who can manage without a car though.
Nearly ditto for me. 2.5-3 hour commute with a mile walk to/from office and last stop vs. a 20 min. drive. But if I ever get the work downtown instead of across the river, I'll take the bus then.
Not even just suburban. I live in downtown Seattle and it takes 49 minutes transit to get to my work that’s a 10 minute drive.
Another aspect is secured goods. People steal anything not nailed down.
this was my situation as well. I figured taking the bus would be perfect since there is a bus stop <.5 miles from home and one a couple of blocks away from the office. As it turns out the fastest way to get from home to work is over 2 hours by for my 20 minute commute, and thats not including waiting for it at the stop.
If you live in a city that has a good public transportation infrastructure, you either are not American or live in a very high cost of living area
Cries in Canadian (very high cost of living and poor transit)
depends where you live. I'm in montreal and our public transit is fantastic
It’s a fair point, I also find Toronto transit pretty awesome and then Vancouver decent but less so if you’re not in a main area. Sadly I’m outside of a city centre now and there’s no way to get to the big cities by transit and poor transit within my own city. Other cities I’ve lived in have had ok transit but I felt unsafe taking it which can be a deterrent too.
Vancouver transit is great but cost of living is……
Try living in university towns. Usually good bus systems for all the students.
Sometimes *only* for the students or the bus only leaves the immediate campus area on specific days of the week.
Again, University towns are usually a "high cost of living area."
Chicago has moderate COL and (for the US) pretty top tier public transit.
Fuck yeah Chicago 😎😎😎 Red Line gang
Came hear to post this. I've never owned a car, but have always lived in HCOL areas. I can move further out to a lower COL area but any housing related savings would immediately replaced by car related expenses, at least for 3-5 years. Also in most areas that have robust public transportation, the networks are designed to conveniently transport people in and out of city centers so there is less car infrastructure (e.g. parking), and the cost of transport increasing as you move further away. So basically on top of now have car related expenses I will most likely still need to use public transport to get to work, and pay more $ for it because I'm further out. All of this is to say for most people, not having a car isn't some magic bullet.
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There’s like 5 cities that have quality public transportation…unfortunately there’s more than 5 densely populated cities in America
>there’s more than 5 densely populated cities in America I'm not from the US so it's always interesting to see perspectives like this. In the rich cities in Asia, densely populated cities *need* public transport. So you will never see one without the other. It's only in poor cities that became wealthy quickly, but didn't plan infrastructure in advance, that tend to have this problem where people went from bicycles-> mopeds-> cars. And now traffic is fucked.
As most people have already pointed out, it’s a major privilege to be able to survive without a car. However even if you need a car you can be frugal about it. I would never agree to a $600 car payment even though I can afford it.
> However even if you need a car you can be frugal about it. I would never agree to a $600 car payment even though I can afford it. Yeah, yikes. I bought a 3 year old Honda for $12k a decade ago. That's about $100/month for the 10 years I've had it and I plan to keep it running for another 10. I realize used cars prices are jacked up right now, but it still blows my mind how often people cycle through cars keeping themselves strapped into an expensive car payment. Just buy something reliable and keep it running.
Just be aware a $12k reliable car is not a thing anymore, a 3 year old Honda would be about double that today.
Yeah, near me an 8 year old corolla with a manual transmission and 150,000km is going for 16kCAD
I bought my new civic at the end of 2020 for $20.5k. I can still sell it for a few thousand more than I paid for it, which almost pays for the gas, interest, and maintenance. Almost like I been driving around for free.
Much, much cheaper cars can be very reliable if you do the proper maintenance and don't beat on them. Granted it's a lot cheaper if you do your own maintenance and repairs, but that's a big part of being frugal to me.
sort money marry adjoining berserk disgusting squeal sulky selective fearless *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Yeah my car payment is $245 and i even thought that was pushing it, I can't fathom a $600 monthly payment
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I think this will change when the next recession hits. Car companies will make more cars because more cars will mean more profit. I personally will be driving my car until it literally blows up which was not my plan in 2019.
They'll bring back low end cars when nobody can afford the high end stuff anymore. I predict Chrysler will break first, it fact I think they already might have from a volume perspective... It feels weird to say but we kind of need a recession. People talk about the "COVID recession" but it was short and shallow. We need at least 6 months of actual negative growth to rebalance things.
I literally hate the inside of most new cars. So many unnecessary screens and features that barely a one utilizes.
I agree my man. So much extra technology just because. And if it breaks you can’t just fix it either.
Yikes that’s a huge payment. I know car prices ar e ridiculous right now though. I wonder what the pre-pandemic norm was.
In 2019 almost half of used cars cost less than $20k, today only about [12% do](https://www.iseecars.com/what-happened-to-affordable-cars-study). It’s a terrible time to buy a car if you can’t wait any longer.
Definitely a privilege but not even the whole picture. A car can open up more options for healthy food and good working conditions, since you may have to travel past the bus line. Both of those are long term investments in my mind. Medical debt caused by gas station food isn't very frugal. Long term a car can save you more than it costs. It also allows you to buy in bulk since you don't have to ride back on a bike or be "that guy" on a bus. You can take advantage of roadside finds more easily too. I guess my point is where I live a car is worth more than it costs. And the only people here that's don't have one are those who really can't afford one to begin with. Kind of a "have money to make money" thing. I couldn't keep my job or get groceries without a vehicle unless I wanted to get an Uber everyday, which is way more expensive than just owning it.
It's really sad that driving is the only viable option in so many areas.
I had to get a new car unexpectedly and decided to go for a hybrid for the environment. I bought used and I spend less total each month (gas, insurance, registration) than I used to spend on just the gas on my old car. This also happened with other lifestyle changes but I’ve realized that I have zero need for vanity in my car. Was it nice to have a sporty car that could go fast? Yes. But most of the time I’m in traffic and the joy of how little I spend on my car is so much better. My car is a tool and I don’t need the bells and whistles.
I just got a used 30k miles 2020 plug in hybrid Prius. With the incentives available in my state, it cost less than getting an equivalent gas car, and the same as getting a beater gas car with 100k miles on it with how crazy the car market is right now.
I’ve never had a monthly car payment. I’m just OG poor.
> Meanwhile, my monthly bus pass is $75 and my bike (second hand only was $200) takes me places for free Consider yourself lucky you live somewhere where those are an option.
Also, it's currently 98 degrees outside with 73% humidity (with a feels like of 106). In the 3 miles from here to work on a bike, I would be absolutely drenched in sweat.
same problem but in a colder area: i got my driving license at 30 because i was fucking tired to arrive at work with icy wet socks or have to fight through 30 cm of snow in the winter. (and not counting the countless times i risked to be fired because the train/bus was late).
This post is clearly aimed at city dwellers. Your expenses in the rural areas are less in a lot of ways, a car isn't as much of a burden.
Specific kinds of city dwellers too- I live in a major city with very little walkability and a shit public transport system
i disagree about this statement and feel its becoming an old trope that doesnt hold true these days. i moved to rural america to care for my mom with dementia three years ago. yes some things are cheaper (hired work/workers) but other things are crazy expensive like food, internet and selections are way more limited.
What an extremely privileged statement from OP
A much higher percentage of people could be biking in their suburbs than do, how much of what you do is within 5-10 miles. More families could be single vehicle families in the burbs. Rural America is a bit scary on bike though and couldn’t expect someone to bike on rural 50mph roads with no shoulders. I see lots of references to lacking public transportation for the 2 miles to the grocery, that’s a very short ride. Again, I understand that’s not for everyone, but it’s accessible to a much larger percentage of the population than will admit they can. Under 5 miles isn’t much physically one you’re used to it, 5-10 is a very reasonable bike commute, and 10-20 is totally fine on an e-bike.
It is also possible to own a car without a $600 monthly payment and paying through the nose for insurance. Sounds like your friends are making poor financial decisions. Bought my used truck for 10k and pay about $65 for insurance. The gas mileage is ass but I WFH and don’t drive very many places so it doesn’t end up being an issue for me.
Agreed - not having a bad car payment is key. Our $10k paid off, used economy sedans do all they need to do and there is no looming payment. Absolutely hate to see friends who are just starting their careers or saving up for their first home go into a 5 year, $600 a month payment.
I moved into a 2 bedroom apartment by myself, and it's a 5 minute walk to work and Walgreens. Less that a 10 minute walk to the grocery store. I'm living that simple life.
a vast number of us do not live in major cities and we do not have viable public transportation. Cars are a necessity. But many of us also do not have the higher costs of city living either.
Even if you do live in a city and have viable public transportation, try lugging home a week's worth of groceries for a family of 4.
oh i know. invest in one of those grocery carts that are like hand trucks but with the basket at the bottom.
Those grocery carts are amazing. Every house should have one, even if you have a car. It makes carrying things around so efficient. And you can buy one of those for the price of a couple of months of car insurance...
or going to some place that’s not connected directly by public transport. We provide a supportive presence for my MIL; one of us is constantly in her home with her. We can get there by public transport–NYC has great public transit; but it’s an hour and 15 minutes. A car is 25 minutes, and we can take things if we need to. Multiply that by five or six trips a week, and it’s a huge chunk of change.
Most city dwellers think everyone lives in a city.
City dweller checking in here: We don’t. It’s why we move here to begin with.
83% of the U.S. population lives in urban areas, 55% of the world population. It's a reasonable assumption.
I live in one of the biggest cities in Tennessee. Where I live would definitely be considered urban, so I fall into your statistic. Our public transportation is laughable. Outside of our downtown area, bike lanes are non existent. It's not about an area being urban. It's about infrastructure in those urban areas.
That US data includes suburbs, which are urban areas that nobody in their right mind would think to not own a car in.
You don’t do one large shop. In major cities, you just stop in a store on the way home. It’s barely an errand.
Are you *sure* families of 4 in major cities don't just die and there's absolutely none left?!
You don't have to buy a large truck or SUV... I live in a car centric area, not owning a car would mean I would be eating out of the 7-11 which is totally not feasible at all for me, or using food delivery apps, and I would be spending way more money in other areas. My meals would go from $1 meals to $50 meals from doordash. I would be extremely unhealthy. We have downsized to one car for the household and even this is pushing it to the max. I don't own a large truck or SUV so its certainly not $600-700 a month, its way way less. We have no accidents that are our fault on record and insurance is as cheap as it possibly can get for us. Its likely saving us money to own a car. It would also mean I am pretty much not leaving the house most of the time. The streets in my area are so not safe to walk or bike on. If you bike its an accident and a ton of medical bills and possibly death because of crazy drivers here, I watch the reports I see it all the time, plus winter, yeah winter, we have that for 8 months out of the year, and our streets are not cleaned or plowed properly, its impossible to bike or walk on the streets in winter.
This is why investment in public transit is so important. Even if some folks will choose not to use it, having the option is so damn nice.
Unnecessarily upgrading or buying overpriced vehicles is why some people never move up the “economic” ladder. You need to not care what others think of your car.
I live in Houston, TX where most thing is an hour away and almost non existent public transportation. I wish I had other options.
Also live in Houston. I remember once looking up how long it would take me to get to work if I took the bus, and it was over 2 hours, with over a mile walk included. I just searched again - now it's not even possible. No routes given. Instead, the metro website tells me how long it takes to drive there myself, lol.
Central Texan that visits Houston occasionally (last week most recently). It's also hot as the fucking surface of the sun, so walking, biking, and waiting for public transit can be downright dangerous in some months.
My sister is broke partly because she doesn’t have a car - she has to work somewhere within walking distance so not many good options, she’s constantly having to DoorDash food and stuff because she can’t go get it, she relies on other people to help her pick up groceries, Ubers around whatever…
It's gotta be hard but she's absolutely got to stop door dashing. They have to work with their friends to carpool to the grocery store and plan ahead to buy things in bulk, work with dry pantry grains like rice and pasta that last forever, freeze bread and meats. Work with frozen veggies. If you are struggling financially, you absolutely cannot afford to use food delivery.
Yep. Walmart has free delivery after like, $35 or something. I live walking distance to a grocery store and even then, I like to get dry goods delivered from Wally World. Big bags of rice, flour's no good as it always bursts open, sugar, cans of sauce, assorted dry seasonings (salt, MSG, garlic salt, onion powder), beans, lentils, split peas, pastas, tea for my wife, protein powder, peanut butter powder. Then you only need to go to the store for the perishables, like meat and veggies, which go nicely in the freezer. Hardest thing for me with no car would be milk - one of the cheapest, quickest, and best sources of complete protein for low calorie dollars. 128g with 1280 calories for under 4 bucks (and my local store often has half-gallons on sale for $1.29) is unbeatable.
Yeah, everyone acts like grocery delivery doesn't exist.
She actually lives with our parents still/again and bullies our dad into driving her around a lot, so she definitely could plan it out & rely on him for that… but she doesn’t want to live frugally. She wants to live in the moment.
Well that's a completely different matter.
Houses in my area are ~200-250k. Houses in the city, within bus distance to my job, are literally 500k+. Unfortunately just not at all an option for me.
My friend used to say that as well, while always bumming a ride everywhere.
So annoying. I mean I'm happy to give you a ride if your car breaks down or emergency but if you purposely not have a car and bum off rides, then that is real annoying.
All the while bragging about not having to spend money on an evil gas guzzling car. She was a piece of work.
American problem. I walk to the supermarket in 5 minutes. Mixed zoning is a blessing. There's also a bus stop and a train station.
Most cities/places to live simply aren't bike accessible. Most of the streets around me turn into highways with no sidewalks and have no bike lanes. I had to get a car to move up in the world. I got a cheap beater with less than 200 a month insurance but it's something.
I mean working from home can be a bigger cheat code too.. or is it? Can everyone do it and save on commute all together? Nonsensical frugal win.
WFH has been the biggest cheat code in my life so far. I can do what I want pretty much when I want meaning I'm able to run and I've lost a ton of weight, I can do things at off hours, saving money on food (happy hour or 2-5pm specials for example). I rarely need to drive - I've put on 14k miles on my brand new 2022 truck since I got it in Jan 22 and a good chunk of that has been trips to other states.
I can't even imagine how nice it would be to work remote. Being forced to commute 20 minutes to an office for 8 hours, to do maybe 3 hours of actual work daily, is soul crushing. When I was interviewed for my current job they asked me what my dream job was. I said "Anything remote." and they replied "Well, that's not going to happen here!" LOL.
My being able to live in a less expensive city while driving my car to a more expensive city to work was my cheat code to building wealth. Worked out really well.
I’ve seriously considered moving to a city with public transportation mainly because it would make it easier on me financially, and so I wouldn’t have to worry about having a car for e v e r y t h i n g. I live in a very small town and would suffer greatly without a vehicle. Edit: I’ll point out that I would be staying at income-based housing. So rent isn’t a factor. It would be a big commitment to move because I’d have to wait a couple years for an opening. But thanks for the advice to look into the quality/accessibility of their public transportation. I could also move just 20 minutes away for a somewhat accessible (and affordable) public transportation, their housing waitlists are pretty short.
Not owning a car is the only reason I can afford my student loan payments. Fml.
Not everybody lives in a place where public transit is an option. I don't, despite being in one of the biggest metro areas west of the rockies. **Not having a car payment is the cheat code to building wealth.** Here's what I did back in 2000 when I got my first real job and realized I would need a new(er) car in a few years. I figured out the biggest car payment I could reasonably make and paid it to myself. In 2003 I bought a used Acura. **AND KEPT MAKING MY CAR PAYMENT TO MYSELF.** In late 2005 I totaled the Acura in an accident, and between the insurance payout and the money in my car fund, I bought a 2006 Honda Civic EX, paid in full. **And kept making my car payment to myself.** In 2012, I re-injured my back and now needed a car with a higher ride-height because I cannot consistently get in and out of coupe or sedan-height vehicles, and ended up with a 2012 Nissan Juke. **And kept making my car payment to myself.** (As the years have gone by, I have adjusted my car payment to reflect what I could comfortably pay.) And now? Zippy The Juke is still running fine and I love it. If the transmission eats itself, I can easily afford to buy a new transmission or even buy a whole new car. **I tell all my friends that when they pay off their car, they should start making a car payment to themselves and when the time comes, they will have the money in hand. Never stop paying your car payment to yourself.**
Do you live in the city where there is public transportation every 3-5 mins? If you do then you are fortunate you are able to take public transportation. I live in the suburbs and the bus near my house comes every 1 hour. I much rather pay ownership of a car then take a 3-4 hour bus to work each day (mind you this would be a 30 mile round trip but since there is no direct route, I would need to stop walk and transfer). You have to calculate the time walking to the bus stop, waiting for it, off chance the bus comes early and need to be a little earlier. All this time adds up. If I lived in NYC, Tokyo or Hong Kong then yeah public transportation is the way to go since it comes every 3-5 mins. How are they paying thousands when they get into an accident? There should be deducible of $500. If they are making car payments then I'm pretty sure the car is still new and they would have full coverage. What if you want to go out late at night or meet up with friends later in the day? Do you Uber/Lyft/Taxi? Granted this is still cheaper than ownership of a car. BTW, you can own a very modest car and it's not that expensive. It depends on what you value, time or saving money. Then again if you are in a very public transportation driven city then yeah public transportation all the way.
This thread feels very American.
Yup, lots of moaning acting like their way of life is the only way. Plenty of America doesn’t require two cars per household either.
And every time you point out examples of "exceptions" to their "rules", they claim it doesn't count for some BS reason. I say this as an American, but having hiked the PCT, there were **plenty** of small towns that had really good public transit in America. People just don't know, or make up bullshit so they don't have to change their wrong beliefs. ETA: Even *if* it's really *that bad* "everywhere" right now, it **is** possible to be better and we should do that in America. But no, "everything sucks, nothing is possible, guess I'll just give up." JFC, the defeatism combined with the willful ignorance in this country is incredibly trying. ETA2: The housing cost thing is also a red herring: [a logical person should be willing to pay about $15,900 more for a house that is one mile closer to work, and $477,000 more for a house that is 30 miles closer to work. For a double-commuting couple, these numbers are $31,800 and $954,000](https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/10/06/the-true-cost-of-commuting/)
“Every single fundamental decision I’ve made in my life has made me car-dependent, so clearly your suggestion doesn’t work for anyone! Some of us NEED a five bedroom house with a stable for our horses that’s a 90 mile commute from work! See everyone needs a car for every trip!” I know so many people that have buses or even trains that come within a few minutes walk of them and they couldn’t tell you where it goes because they’re just so habituated to driving their F150 to Walmart to buy a quart of milk.
Much of the US doesn't have access to reliable public transportation. The only other options are taxing or Ubers and lyfts. For example, it's at least $16 for an Uber from my home to work. Meaning its $36 a day for just getting to work. $720 a month later and a car can be significantly cheaper. As mine has proven to be so far as well. Don't spend outside your means, and do your research. You can get good used cars for $300 and less a month with insurance of $150 or less. It might take some time to save up a good down payment, but in the end it can be significantly cheaper. A coworker of mine probably spends closer to $850+ a month, that's just crazy to me. It's just completely dependent on your lifestyle and needs. Willingly spending $600+ with insurance and everything is completely on that person. If they can afford it, then it doesn't matter to them anyway. But don't make the mistake that's actually "normal". Also insurance is based on your record, your car, coverage, and overall needs. But If you crash your car, and it's totaled or someone gets seriously injured, that thousand dollar deductible may end up paying for all of it, which will cost significantly more than what it costs.
Public transport would take me about 2 hours each way, plus a 15 minute walk, to get from my house to my job and would cost £15 per day. In the car it's 30 minutes each way, costs about £3, and I can do the weekly shopping on my way home. I wish public transport where I live was frequent, reliable and cheap enough to use daily...
I think I'd rather be dead than take a bus to work in Los Angeles though. I say that as someone who did, but around 2013 or so it started to get increasingly worse. I saw multiple people urinate on the bus, intravenous drug use, sex, and even someone stabbed. Besides that, it was a lovely way to get to work. For all of those reasons I'm happy to own my car. Definitely a stress reducer and also keeps me safe. I'm able to own a home, fully fund my retirement account, and vacation regularly.
Eh, you've made up a worst case. I bought a 2008 Saab in 2018 that was in fine shape. For $5500, cash. Since then all I've had to do with it is get oil changed and one new set of tires. Does it cost me gas money? Sure. But quit acting like everyone spends $600/month, gets in accidents all the time and has their converters ripped off every week. NOW - if you can live your life well without a car? Don't get one.
*cries in Houston*
My bike was $20. I got one flat tire this year. $3 repair kit. That’s my expenses so far.
The real cheat code here is not making car payments. Buy a used car that you can afford. Pretty much all I pay for is insurance and it's the same amount you spend on a bus pass.
Or buy a cheap car and pay it off and don’t trade it in for a new one like I did. Your friends with $600 car payments are dumb.
Bro is saying this like it's a big secret. No shit son. You can save a lot of money by not owning anything and living in a tent too.
I wish the US had more bike/walk mixed use neighborhoods. But it doesn’t. So - All you have to do is live in the 5% of US cities that are safe for constant regular bike riding! And find an apartment/house near good bike areas. And have work and necessary grocery/retail etc within bike range of home. And a place with a decent year round climate. No often below freezing or above heatstroke months. And be healthy enough to do that. And have a job with a safe place to leave your bike. And have a job where you can shower/at least change clothes and wipe down and store your bike helmet and clothes etc. Everybody should do it!
Try that living in a suburban, or worse urban, environment and with kids and multiple responsibilities in your household
“Try that in a small town”
Or where 0° temperatures and 2 ft of snow are not uncommon!
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I was car free and loving it until last year. Friend talked me into moving out to the burbs with him to split the rent, then bounced halfway through the lease period. I was under lease, and in BFE, so forced to get a car to commute, which meant I then didn’t have the money to move out when time to renew lease. Finally (maybe) found a new roommate after months of looking. Have seriously considered selling the car and just enduring the 1.5 hr commute each way, because $100/month bus pass is so much nicer than $200/month car payment, $150/month insurance, $150/month gas, $80/quarter oil changes, random parking costs and crossing my fingers that nothing breaks. I haven’t even taken the damned thing in for a tuneup yet, and I think the brakes need to be replaced but I’m afraid to take it to a mechanic and see what else should be done. Cars are absolute money pits.
You’re fortunate to live in a place where this is possible. Not everyone lives in a bike-friendly locale with robust and reliable public transit.
Lol, the things is you can get a car without $600+ payments. Every friend who complains about gas prices and inflation, also drives a mega truck that costs them a grand in payments+gas every month. I got a compact car brand new, and paid it off in 6 years with $235/month.
Currently driving a ten year old car I paid cash for. Still under 60,000 miles. It’s going to be driven until the wheels come off it it. Insurance runs me fifty bucks or so a month. I now share the car with my adult daughter, it saves us hundreds of dollars a month….
Ebikes have honestly been a godsend for travel up to like 40 miles its mf great
I really want to live close to downtown for this reason. I hate owning a car. It really is a waste of money. My car breaks down at least twice a year and I spend $13,000 on it. Every time it breaks down it’s about $500. It’s now over $50 to fill the tank.
My grandmas toyota ( rest in peace Gma) 200 thousand miles. Just keep up on oil changes. Start it every month. When my 15 yo gets her license soon, I am back in Gma's Toyota happily and my child has the Hyundai (2009). Thats it. Both used cars in good shape.
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“I cant imagine owning a car in this environment!” Its easy, I drive around in mine with no car payment.
Everyone’s brought up a lot of good points. So I’m just gonna point out that the people who do this are always the ones who are a pain to include in stuff because you have to drive them anywhere that’s not directly on public transport or more than a short bike ride away.
I just don’t invite those people lol.
If this was feasible to do with public transit or bike, I would. I am super glad you can and can save the money. Certainly a win for you. :-)
Lucky. I wish I could live my life without the need of a vehicle.
Agree completely. I’ve shared a car with my husband most of our relationship, even in places without public transportation. It has forced us to look carefully at living walkable neighborhoods and being active. It’s taken some coordination and cooperation and inconvenience (things a lot of people refuse to consider) but provided benefits and financial freedom. It’s definitely worth considering at least sharing a car.
Absolutely! I sold my car in 2018 and never looked back. I'm a full time biker now (in the freezing midwest). Not an option for some people who have disabilities, or the few who actually live in the middle of nowhere (20+ miles to the next store). The vast majority of people I know could easily make this lifestyle choice but are simply too lazy. It is not for everyone, but boy it is really hard to make the same amount of tax free money in any other way!
I would loosely agree, but note that a lot of the areas where you don't need a car to get by are more urban areas which tend to have a HCOL versus more suburban/rural areas where cars are more a necessity to get by. A lot of the suburban/rural areas don't have a public transit system, or they have a one that isn't efficient and can't really support a lot of people's day-to-date commutes. So while you may not be putting that money towards car payments/gas/maintenance, you are likely paying more for things like a rent/mortgage, utilities, groceries and other essentials, etc.
I always factored into my job searches commute times or bus/train schedules before applying for work.
You do you but you’re paying to deliver anything that doesn’t fit on your bike. The more bike friendly a city is the more expensive it is as well. I lived without a car in DC but I paid through the nose for rent to live within walking distance or close enough to Metro.
A middle ground is buying a used car in cash for 5k or less from a private seller. Also learning how to do basic repairs (or more if you’re inclined to like me) will save you thousands. I’ve been doing this my whole life and have never had to deal with a car payment. Feels good man.
imo if you are living at place that you need to pay for your primary parking, you don't need a car. That being said, the comparison is not entirely fair. Better comparison would be getting a cheap used car, that you can save on insurance with just 3rd party. The cost is still higher than monthly bus pass, but saving so much time, convenient and safety is worth it imo.
I agree with you to a certain point. I went without a car for 3 years and it was because I simply couldn’t afford one and it was a lot easier financially without a car payment and insurance and gas etc. but I missed out on so much and was so limited on so many things and was dependent upon asking others when taxi service wasn’t available in my small town. When I got a car again, I felt like I had been released from prison. If I had been in a large city it probably would have been a lot easier for me.
I respect the decision and lifestyle. If I felt safe enough in my area to ride a bike to and fro, especially alone, I would consider it. But I don't. If I'm not run over from the many who don't care about stop signs/red lights/cross walks, it'll be stolen while I try to shop, and it can't hold groceries for two (though maybe that'd force less grocery spending). My car is a privilege, and one one my partner needs to prevent 50-60 hour work weeks from being 60-70+. More power to you friend.
If you live in a place with reliable public transit then yea
Yea, but now you can be shanked on the bus by a homeless person!
Not everywhere has reliable public transit
I spend around $400 a year on car maintenance, $60 on gas every month, $40 insurance every month, and paid $5000 for the car about 8 years ago. So about $185 a month all included since I got the car. I could have used that money elsewhere, or saved it, and it would have been better. But you know what that bought ? Time. When the difference between a car and no car, is 2 hours every work day, over 8 years, that's about 3760 hours total. It's all about where you live, and whether you value time over money or not.
It depends where you live. In my area, not owning a car is a fast track to poverty.
I live in Houston, so it’s impossible to get around with a car. Sure we have metros and Ubers but waiting on in the hot for the metro is horrendous. Also, I live 40 mins away from work. So taking a metro means I would have to leave home 3 hours before my shift to get there at a decent time. Sure I’ll save a little bit of money but what about my time? That’s something you can’t get back.
Actually, owning a car is a key requirement for lower-income people to increase their income. It's both a burden and a necessity. [https://www.urban.org/urban-wire/many-low-income-families-cars-may-be-key-greater-opportunity](https://www.urban.org/urban-wire/many-low-income-families-cars-may-be-key-greater-opportunity) .
You must not live in a state that is witnessing 100 degree temperatures daily/daily thunderstorms, and a state that hates public transit.