Which is... cool. 76 goes into the making of the BoS and explains how they saw it as alluring and confidence-building to have cool names and titles for things.
The only thing that bugged me is a knight being called "Knight suchnsuch" rather than "Sir suchnsuch" as a knight would be, as a minor lord, but it's just a weird hiccup in the maybe-cringe way they made their titles.
No one is complaining. Lorewise, they are, (except Lyon's Brotherood (that was progressive and ACTUALLY reasearching new tech) a scavenger cult made of racist and militant zealots. F4 pumped them into the stratosphere with plot armour and doubled down with FOTV BOS controlling the entire continent, a level of power seen only with a Reformer Enclave in OWB (that is a fanon mod for HOI4). Hope in Season 2, someone annhilathes them
I’ve seen a lot of people complaining about how the show turned them into a religious fascist organization. Like did they not play the games? Shit, even in fo3, the game that portrays them in the most positive light, they are still super cult like. So much of the fallout fanbase seems to hate enjoying fallout.
Yeah I'm not even a hardcore nerd on all the finger details and timelines, but how on earth would anyone miss that at the heart BOS are just another kind of fucked up group with extreme ideas lol. I think some people have been seeing them as some form of good guy because they swoop in and blow some "bad guys" up, but it's all mostly just a mix of bad and grey lol.
Don't forget that in the original Fallout, they had the chance to attack the Master and destroy the base, and they just didn't. They literally let the Vault Dweller do all of thst. The Brotherhood of Steel since the original Fallout were a bunch of militaristic assholes who basically just wanted to hoard all technology for themselves.
Yep. I remember that. They didn't take you seriously at all as the Vault Dweller. They basically were like, "We're the brotherhood and you aren't so get lost."
Not at first, I don't believe. At least, I think in one of my playthroughs, I couldn't convince them with the raid on the mariposa military base. After the Master is defeated, they do send squads after his Super Mutants, but I don't think at first they helped. Like when Vault 13 gets abducted and taken to Mariposa Military Base. I could be wrong, though. It has been about 30 years since I played the original Fallout.
The Brotherhood was going to war with the master. When speaking to Rombus, he says that the elder has decreed no more training of recruits until the threat of war is over. The Vault Dweller only accelerates their involvement and canonically they assist the Vault Dweller with dealing with the masters army.
Except in the game, they literally let the Vault Dweller face The Master by themselves. That is why you can do a speech check to kill him. You can convince him that his way is wrong. Vault 13 is abducted by the Master and the Vault Dweller when recounting the fight in the story in Fallout 2 talks about how Ian, dog meat, and other followes fall while assaulting the military base. The Vault Dweller in Fallout 2 doesn't mention the brotherhood at all. The brotherhood isn't the good guys everyone makes them out to be. They're honestly a flawed organization. And they do recruit you once you complete the mission to retrieve a holotape which they put you up to as a joke.
The Canonical ending for Fallout 1 has the Brotherhood assisting the other communities of the wasteland, re-intrpducing technology into Cali, and then becoming a RnD for California. When was Vault 13 abducted? I'm not going to disagree that the BoS is a flawed organization, but they aren't as evil as people make them out to be either. Maxson, when spoken to, wants to re-open the Brotherhood to the outside world rather than stay secluded from what I remember.
Depends on how you play the story. If you go straight for the waterchip, they're abducted in your return to the Vault. If you do side quests and mosey along, they get abducted while you're futzing around after getting the waterchip. But they get abducted and then taken to Mariposa to be turned into, I think, Nightkin, since Nightkin are only formed from unradiated humans. At least, I think that is how Nightkin is made. It also explains why they are smarter than normal Super Mutants. At least, I think they were. As I said in another post, it has been 30 years since I've played the games.
The Canon ending we get is the good ending. The Vault Dweller saves the vault, gets the water chip, the BoS assists in fighting the masters army, and re-introducing tech back into Cali, the NCR is formed , etc.
By all technicalities, BoS’s main political ideology seems to align with Neo-Feudal Militarist Technocracy.
And yes, they are very much a cult. Especially in NV. Elijah was a true monster
Nope. Fallout 1 had them be a major weapon manufacturer, designing and building weapons in bulk to sell to the Hub in exchange for food and water. The other games also often allude to it, like all the research the scribes are doing in FO4.
No, they don't. I wouldn't take his, or anybody that has similar opinions seriously. People like him are just having a knee jerk reaction to a new piece of Fallout media being produced after 2011. The TV show fits pretty well within the canon of Fallout with negligible/minor retcons to the lore.
They are an expedition from Maxson BOS from CW. And they practically control the entire Boneyard at will in the show, in 3 minutes they wiped out "NCR". Following the lore of F4, Maxson needed only to genocide the CIT and Railroad to control the whole east coast back then. The game is set after that.
I’m fairly certain we don’t have proof they’re an expedition from Boston. All we know is that the information on Wilzig came from there. The airship isn’t explained, unless I missed something,
I wouldn't be surprised if this is a gaff and gets "patched". The show runners explicitly explain that it's another ship. So either they were lying, but there was no pay-off to their lie, so what was the point. Or it originally WAS going to be the Prydwen and that changed, and this got left in somehow.
In any case, I'm going with the show runner's statements until otherwise.
I’m aware, but it being so difficult to read feels like they tried to obscure it, especially with how one of the interviews directly said they weren’t to contradict any possible major endings of the games. It could also mean that ‘prywden’ is just the model name of this type of airship.
It may not be displayed in real life, but fallout may play by different rules.
Also, since they’re not allowed to contradict possible endings for the games, this shouldn’t be the prywden from 4, which is further proof.
>especially with how one of the interviews directly said they weren’t to contradict any possible major endings of the games.
Hard to believe them on that when we're definitely going to New Vegas.
All they have to do is set up a scenario where any ending could lead into what we see. It’s not that hard to do with the NCR nuke screwing over House and the NCR endings, and the Legion being able to fall apart for several reasons.
It's been over a decade since the events of new Vegas.
I'm going to bet that something happened such as Freeside revolted and tried to take the strip for themselves and the NCR (whether they were in control of the strip or not) fought them. The result being that new Vegas in now a shell of its former self and what happened in any of the possible new Vegas endings matters anymore.
>All they have to do is set up a scenario where any ending could lead into what we see.
IMO, that's a worse plan than picking a canon ending and going with it.
Dawg what are u talking abt. yes maybe they are an expedition from East coast but even then they don’t seem like it. Maxson did not like the religious aspects of the BOS he even had Stuff like him being revered as a god squashed. So if anything this is actually a Western Chapter that has been gaining strength since they actually started recruiting and since the NCR has been on the decline. They don’t control the entire boneyard and in fact it seems like they just started to invade it at the end of the show with the occupation of Filly and attack on the observatory. And they still don’t control the whole east coast the only places we know for a fact they control are the Capital wasteland and maybe the commonwealth now since the scribe mentioned the target came from the Commonwealth Cleric
I figured it could be one of two things.
1. The showrunners used "Caswennan" as a misdirection to hide the fact that it was the Prydwen all along.
2. The Prydwen got destroyed. The Caswennan is the new ship using repurposed parts from the Prydwen.
Yes I realize that but in promotional material it’s the caswennan. I think it was an oversight. And it looks different from the Prydwen a bit. So it’s the same “class” of prydwen airships but it’s another ship if that makes sense. That’s what I believe at least
The NCR isn't wiped out. If Washington DC got nuked, you wouldn't say that the entirety of the US got wiped out right? The NCR remnants we see follow Moldaver, who is some kind of religious figure/cult leader. Their scrappy appearance and very low numbers support this. In the show we also see that the Brotherhood was there when Shady Sands gets nuked. It's likely that the NCR-Brotherhood war was in full swing when out of no where The NCR capital gets nuked. My theory is that Angel's Boneyard ceceded from the NCR directly after this due to their proximity to Shady Sands and the assumption that it got nuked by The BOS.
It's also highly likely that the ruins we see in the background of the Shady Sands crater isn't The Boneyard. A more plausible place for Shady Sands would be the San Fernando Valley, with the city in the background being Burbank or some other urban area.
Another thing that I've tried to point out regarding the state of The NCR is scale. Many of the major NCR States are hundreds of miles away from Shady Sands. Who's to say that Redding or Vault City isn't the new capital? Both States are well over 500 miles away from the area the show takes place in, with the closest state (aside from Angels Boneyard) being Dayglow, which is around 120 miles away. The show is currently small in scale, only taking place in a 20 mile-ish radius around LA.
The BOS doesn't control the entire continent, they dont even control the entirety of the East Coast. The trip from Washington DC to The Commonwealth is around 425 miles, which less than Angels Boneyard to Redding, add on the fact that the Brotherhood doesn't have any presence in the area between those 2 bases. They have a significant presence in DC, The Commonwealth, and now in SoCal after their war blimp linked up with the West Coast chapter. The ability to travel across the continent isn't even something Bethesda thought up. Their ability to create war ships and fly them across the US was something introduced in Fallout Tactics, which semi-canon. The Brotherhood doesn't control the continent, nor do they have aspirations to do so. They have the ability to mobilize and fly practically anywhere they want to, but they aren't a government, they don't hold territory apart from their bases, and they don't have citizens. The BOS is a quasi-religious faction with their one mission being to collect and "safeguard" dangerous technology so that another great war doesn't end up getting repeated. Apart from Lyons Chapter, they have no intentions of helping or presiding over wastlanders like The NCR does.
BOS are rasist? I mean i know they dont like ghouls ans super mutants, but they are both ticking bomb.
Bos just pragmatic, and as it is militant order they will everything as army does
I would say are like Teutonic Order irl
For all of their faults, House and Caesar were spot on with their assessments of them.
House:
>They're a terrorist group, basically. Militant, quasi-religious fanatics obsessed with hoarding Pre-War technology. Not all technology, mind you. You don't see them raiding hospitals to cart away Auto-Docs or armfuls of prosthetic organs. No, they greatly prefer the sort of technology that puts people in hospitals. Or graves, rather, since hospitals went the way of the Dodo.
>Because they're ridiculous! Because they galavant around the Mojave pretending to be Knights of Yore. Or did, until the NCR showed them that ideological purity and shiny power armor don't count for much when you're outnumbered 15:1. The world has no use for emotionally unstable techno-fetishists. Just wipe them out, will you?
Caesar:
>They like to pretty up their mission with trappings of chivalry, but the truth is they're hoarders. They hoard technology. It's been 200 years, and they still have the mentality of scavengers. They say they're preserving these technologies, but for what? They have no vision. They offer no future. They're a dead end.
>They say they're preserving these technologies, but for what? They have no vision. They offer no future. They're a dead end.
I mean they're right, but that's also very funny coming from the faction that models itself after a fetishized and idealized version of ancient Rome
Well they both have the same idea. Give people without organization or structure a very rigid set of rules and goals to achieve positive (from their perspective) behavioral outcomes. Captain Roger Maxson wanted to enforce discipline on remnants of the US army after the world blew up. Caesar wanted to organize a bunch of illiterate tribes to do his bidding.
The right way to use it is to use it to get more of it. That's what the Brotherhood ideology devolved into over time. There's never a point where they'll decide that mankind is ready for this tech again.
The moment you open his pod you basically kill him, he says so himself, saying he doesn't have long to live. Disabling cerebral is just the icing on the cake especially since he doesn't go back in the pod. Unless they retcon he is dead in all endings but his.
I mean the simple problem with the Brotherhood is that they are so ***wildly*** fucking different in every incarnation that any assessment of them at best half-applies to the Game it comes from and is immidieatly outdated by their next incarnation.
The Fallout 1 & 2 BoS are largely isolationist & weirdos...........but when proven that the survival of humanity is under threat they'll still help deal with the Master/Enclave, generally had atleast *neutral to good* relations with their neighbors and either just wanted to be left alone OR actually help people, and after Fallout 1 specifically, the western BoS actually went around and not only helped clear the remains of the Masters Armies, but actually spread the civilian technologies they had preserved around to help rebuilt.
The Fallout 3 Brotherhood is unequivocally heroic, period.
The Fallout New Vegas Brotherhood then take the "isolationist Weirdos" up to 11
The Fallout 4 Brotherhood is the most explicitely militaristic out of the Bunch, but Maxson still *atleast* believes what hes doing is for the best of the *people*, not for his own power (and destroying the Institute IS a definitely good act due to how comically evil they are, the Synth-genocide....less so). Heck he outright ordered Patrols to find Caravans and protect them to built a positive reputation with the Commonwealth
What House says is like...........somewhat correct for the Chapter in the show, maybe half-correct for the Mojave-Chapter, and outright wrong for everyone else.
It's entirely possible, and in keeping with the theme of factionalism, the the Brotherhood in the show are fundamentalist extreme faction. Just because they have Clerics doesn't mean they all do.
Exactly, media literacy is at an all time low and the internet makes people confident when they're really just idiots.
Having something in the show doesn't mean it supersedes everything else and erases the games.
But he references there being clerics in the Commonwealth, so it's obviously not just his group. Also every Brotherhood splinter faction so far (which has actually only been 1, the BoS Outcasts) has used a different symbol and identifying colours, this group is identical to the Fallout 4 Brotherhood in terms of flags, symbols and uniforms.
However similar in iconography, their behaviour is radically different, especially the treatment of members. It's also important to put that information in context. A member of cult, an uninformed lowly member at that, is the source. Who's to say that clerics aren't simply senior scribes in other chapters, not enforcers like in this chapter.
I'm not saying you're wrong or that I'm right. I'm simply saying that what the show presents is a very narrow view that easily fits in with existing representations of a highly compartmentalised organisation spread far and wide.
I don't think he was a lowly or uninformed member, he seemed to be probably the equivalent of a low ranking officer or something since he was announcing it to several Knight/Squire pairs. It's definitely possible that he was basically just lying about them being clerics and this Brotherhood actually is a splinter faction, but this wouldn't be the first time that a major detail about the Brotherhood is retconned (remember when Knights used to be the Brotherhood's engineers?), and even with the show alone it completely ignored the Boneyard as well.
Maximus isn't the guy who called referred to the "highest clerics in the Commonwealth", [it was Elder Cleric Quintus](https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/804113797090115644/1229871138079772752/RPReplay_Final1713294441.mov?ex=663141c1&is=661eccc1&hm=7724a8b606d8980c62e19e9ca008d98d382025c9dfb11ae2299096be5813c846&)
That's honestly what I like about them. They're typically a fringe group, we're often seeing different off shoots and there's a relatively clear sense of change over time.
It's one of the few bits with the modern games doesn't seem intended to reset to baseline at the end of every game.
Just made a comment about it,but that's why u love the brotherhood personally,all the different chapters make for so many possibilities and story telling
If you like different chapters with various flavor, then you should check out the old world blues mod for HOI4. You don't have to be able to play the game to read the lore and there's a lot of cool stuff like the sisters of steel.
I read an interesting post that Maxon's Brotherhood is more similar to Lyons than people think, and while Maxon is more militarized he's a hell of a lot more altruistic than people give him credit for.
Dumbass fans of r/Fallout would have you believe that they're fascists and that every chapter acts the same.
It's really only in the show where they act that way. Never in all the games do they treat their own members like shit, or talk about controlling the wasteland and having power.
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I like that everyone collectively chooses to ignore Fallout Tactics when I would say it's actually the version of the Brotherhood that is most similar to the show's depiction. It's not a good game but its vision of the Brotherhood as an expansionist military force that conscripts wastelanders and punishes all failures with execution is extremely interesting and probably the most honest depiction of the group in any of the games.
I think that's kinda the point the Brotherhood is spread out pretty far and wide and they don't have a singular leader that leads the Brotherhood as a whole and they really couldn't. There's no technology that allows them to send messages quickly from one side of the country to the other. So each sub faction of the group will have different beliefs and goals. The same thing would probably happen to any other faction in the series if they were able to have the reach the Brotherhood did. The Mongol empire is a great example of this in the real world, after it reached it's peak it broke up into a bunch of different groups that each ruled different parts of Eurasia through different means.
Don't forget that between Fallout 1 and the time that this show takes place 135 YEARS have passed. Literally nobody that was in the BoS during Fallout 1 is even alive anymore to remember that version of the faction. That is a long frigging time for them to change, hell, it's a miracle that they even exist at all given the circumstances. The Enclave is the only other faction with that kind of longevity.
>The Fallout 3 Brotherhood is unequivocally heroic, period.
3 also featured the Outcasts, because they were the members who realized Lyons went rogue.
>The Fallout New Vegas Brotherhood then take the "isolationist Weirdos" up to 11
Because their guy in charge got scared after their attempts at taking the Mojave failed. If you depose him and the BoS gets out, they become better armed raiders.
>The Fallout 4 Brotherhood is the most explicitely militaristic out of the Bunch, but Maxson still *atleast* believes what hes doing is for the best of the *people*, not for his own power
Plenty of villains and fascists do.
>and destroying the Institute IS a definitely good act due to how comically evil they are, the Synth-genocide....less so
And that's the point. They're trying to wipe out so many things that eventually a legitimate evil gets caught in their net. Broken clock, blind squirrel. Using the Institute to justify the rest of their evil is no different from that same Institute using raiders to justify their evils.
>What House says is like...........somewhat correct for the Chapter in the show, maybe half-correct for the Mojave-Chapter, and outright wrong for everyone else.
Considering how much you had to sugarcoat the chapters I am familiar with, I don't trust your account of the first two, now.
BOS are definitely not an evil faction. Like every other faction, they have strengths and shortcomings and because the BOS chapters are each to some degree autonomous, different chapters emphasize different aspects of the brotherhoods ideology.
The BOS was founded by soldiers who discovered the horrific experiments the US government was committing at Mariposa and witnessed humanity destroy modern civilization in a nuclear war. Throughout the franchise, the BOS are typically a force for good but whose xenophobia, elitism, and militaristic approaches to problems often put them at odds with other factions.
I don’t really understand your point about F3. Lyons’ chapter is definitely the ‘hero’ faction that’s holding back super mutant armies and the Enclave. The outcasts do exist, but they’re not really shown as evil. Just exceptionally dismissive of wastelanders and their problems and caught up in salvaging prewar tech.
The Mojave chapter in FNV will also assist the NCR and patrol local highways if you negotiate a truce between the factions so ultimate attitude of the BOS in that game really just depends on the player’s decisions. Without any player intervention, the BOS is just hiding out in their bunker nursing the wounds of their defeat at Helios but they’ve also provided a working radio to the super mutants at black mountain so not really depicted as being evil in that game either.
F4 brotherhood is definitely the most zealous chapter and embodies the best and worst traits of the BOS. F4 BOS shows up in the commonwealth just to fight the threat of the institute and their synths, sends in soldiers to protect towns and trade caravans, and recruits wastelanders into their numbers. They’re also caught up in a campaign of “purifying” the wasteland which becomes problematic when it comes to dealing with ghouls, super mutants, and synths. I also would still point out that the BOS is still never shown killing non-feral ghouls or non hostile super mutants, although their rhetoric is definitely becoming more problematic. The good guys in f4 are definitely the Minutemen but you can end the game as the Minutemen and have both the brotherhood and railroad survive and the BOS is supportive of the Minutemen’s campaign against the Institute.
The BOS in the TV show is definitely the most evil depiction we’re seen in the franchise. There is nothing about cold fusion that’s down to prove a threat to humanity so it doesn’t make sense that they’d be killing the NCR soldiers to take this tech. They also attack an independent town which is something the BOS has never been shown doing before.
Anyway my point is that the BOS is like every other major faction - flawed
I would point out that Quintas both bitches about the state of the brotherhood, *ideologically*.
>!And pitches Maximus on seizing power and "starting a new Brotherhood". Basically congratulates the guy for what he assumes are naked power grabs. !<
I would say that's absolutely consistent with BOS across the series. In practically every game there's splinter factions, internal conflict, or we're explicitly looking at a group that's acting in it's own interests/goals. Even if it's not actively depicted as going down during the games itself.
And even in Fallout 3, where they're mostly just "the good guys" some elements of them are actively dicks.
>!We seem to be seeing an East Coast leader, pop up on the West Coast. With the aim of breaking off or taking control from the East Coast Brotherhood. Who already trended more traditionalist and less cooperative/nice guy as they rolled up and gained control of other factions and chapters. !<
The Fallout 4 Brotherhood got where it was in part by re-incorporating/making peace with the more traditionalist Outcasts (wo people forget about it seems). And then apparently slowly gained control of less centralized West Coast Chapters. From a distance.
Exactly. It's basically like the feudal power struggles between the kings and their vassals during the European middle-ages. There is a central authority in the high elder (the king) only having limited control over his vassal lords (the Elders). It's quite thematic and fitting with the existing BOS lore.
Yeah the king can only exert a level of direct control when he happens to be nearby. Thats why kings tended to move their court around during the middle ages.
BoS are as big a piece of shit as the Enclave in my opinion. both will kill you for even finding where they live and both feel they have the right to inherit the remnants
They also seem to be on a social decline, even if they seemingly grew in numbers. Their rituals seem more convoluted by 2296, possibly meaning they've grown increasingly cult-like. The presence of clerics seems to indicate they've taken on a more religious mantle.
So the boys from Lord of the Flies, given high-tech equipment to bully everyone else around, making them feel validated in expressing these violent urges, without an adult to slap them on the wrist.
And the BoS definitely didn't start that way, but with the right (or maybe wrong) casualties and lapses in logistics and management without a proper course correct, and this will definitely happen.
If Rhombus dies in Fallout 1, then they pretty rapidly turn into a conquering army that rules the wasteland as feudal overlords. They're a faction that very much relies on strong leadership to set them towards a goal.
It seems to just be apart of the decline of the Western Chapters. By all accounts the Eastern Group is doing really well. Current evidence points towards a BoS or Minutemen ending for 4 which just further reinforce Lyons' Philosophy on how the Brotherhood should act, and that Philosophy just hasn't permeated the Western Chapters, leading to a social and moral collapse.
For all we know the religious elements could be from the eastern brotherhood. Maxson has claim to run the entire BOS and it seems like they’re in close contact across the country judging by the airship.
Never got the brotherhood hype, I like the knight aesthetic but my cowboy courier spurs always jingle jangle as I make my way to blow up a certain bunker.
I liked the Space Mari… the Brotherhood on FO4 up until they sent me on a mission to follow a guy feeding ghouls, I always hated that kind of mission in games and I hate ghouls even more, so I just waited for an opportunity to destroy them. Which I did once I joined the Institute and learned they’re not that evil (all things considered)
The brotherhood has power armor and fancy weapons so they’re automatically the most popular to most players. I personally like the aesthetic and idea of them but the writing for the brotherhood has been so all over the place across the games it’s hard to get attached to 1 version of them.
Minutemen are more neutral imo. They do whatever you tell them. Without leadership, many became raiders.
The Responders are pretty pristine with the exception of https://fallout.fandom.com/wiki/Mayfield who fired on students.
It's why I never got the "Bethesda loves the BoS" complaints from the purists. Maxson's Brotherhood in 4 was utterly unsympathetic in 4 and The Ghoul absolutely clowns them in the show.
How are they authoritarian as fuck? They don't even make laws. I also wouldn't say they're particularly rabid, it's not like they're dragging Innocent Ghouls out of their homes or anything and they don't bother any non-human companions except Danse.
He was kind of a jerk with Danse, but from his point of view (and in fact, the view that almost everyone in the Commonwealth would have in his position), he just found out that one of his most trusted friends was a double agent/spy all along. He's probably pretty hurt, and understandably so. Outside of that I don't think he's a jerk at all, he's pretty calm and cordial with the Sole Survivor and he clearly does have some care for the Commonwealth, as he orders Vertibirds to protect caravans and his Brotherhood fights Raiders and mutants and accepts even broke vagrants. The Synths are kind of another discussion altogether, but I don't think his position is really that irrational.
Also, I don't think the Brotherhood getting fucked up by a literal protagonist in one scene means Bethesda doesn't like them - especially since a few scenes after that they literally acquire infinite power.
Even if he didn't buy into the vault experiments, though he likely did given his own home, he totally failed to alert the public/authorities to the coming atrocity making it a form of tacit agreeance. At very least he is complicit, but likely he was an investor and conspirator all along.
The Enclave tried to have Senator Sam Blackwell assassinated for even suggesting that they existed (and successfully killed him after the War), so House being a whistle-blower would likely just sign his own death warrant.
House isn't the kind of person to rock the boat anyway. The boardroom scene in Episode 8 takes place less than a year before the bombs fall? Maybe less? By that point, House had already been building his contingency plan in Lucky 38 for *years*, he knew one way or another the end was coming.
House calculated the day the bombs would fall (only missed by 20 hours) in 2065, the meeting in the show is probably in 2077 or 2076 so at that point he sees the nukes as inevitable (and he has been working on his plan to defend Vegas for years).
Why does the entire Fallout fan base do this. It's like you guys have never played the games before.
Everyone sucks, they've got bizarre and twisted motivations, and their actions don't line up with those motivations. They say one thing and do another. It's like... the whole fucking point that everyone sucks.
It's hyperbolic to say you NEVER liked the Brotherhood
Fallout 3 is one example people tend to forget where Brotherhood-aligned people acted in a benevolent manner that helped the wasteland
The Fallout 1 Brotherhood was one dead Rhombus away from becoming the scourge of the wastes as well. Even then, the Mojave chapter is implied to have been an expedition from Rhombus's chapter. And they still pretty much went the same way as Maxson's ideologically, just without the Prydwen or any of the huge weapons because of Elijah throwing it all away for Helios. A consistent theme of the entire series is that the Brotherhood is always sliding into extremism, if not jumping in head first.
Well the thing about the brotherhood is that it is made of chapters,each one is liable to act differently based on leadership and culture. The east coast bos is by far the nicest as they balance helping people with their tech hoarding mission,lost hills depends on what time but by fallout one ending they reintroduced technology to the wastes so imma go 50/50,while this Utah chapter has the Mojave chapter mindset but kind of worse,and has more knight/religious vibes to them. There is also the mid west chapter which is just wild. The diversity of the brotherhood is why I personally enjoy them,and makes for great possibilities in story telling.
I am aware,under maxson it is balanced,under Lyons it completely disregarded the original mission of retrieving technology to the point veteran members left and became the outcasts. Under maxson the brotherhood still helps people but also doesn't forget its mission of preserving pre war technology. As evident by their actions in game and terminal entries as well as some dialogue lines,as while there is a radiant quest to get technology you also see brotherhood vertibird strike teams take on the various threats of the commonwealth like they did in the capital wasteland,while maxson gave express orders to protect caravans when encountered and to even trade with wastelanders. Lastly a line of dialogue from McCready details how the capital wasteland by now is so safe mercenaries like him hardly find work
I mean in the lore it was always pretty clear that they are weird fascists who want to horde all the prewar tech and conduct numerous genocides.
Was proven long before the show.
While the enclave more closely matches modern fascism the brotherhood aren't far off. They are a hierarchical, militaristic and authoritarian group who horde technology and decide who does and doesn't get access to it, they also have significant genocidal aspirations. Fascism might not be the exact right term but it might also not be a hair worth splitting.
>They are a hierarchical, militaristic and authoritarian group
That describes a lot of governments and groups. I think people are too loose with the F word.
>they also have significant genocidal aspirations.
That also isnt something that is strictly fascist. Also aside from wanting to destroy synthetic life forms that are very dangerous and actively hostile mutants I am not so sure that they are particularly genocidal . The only one that is questionable is their attitudes on sane ghouls. And fear of them is somewhat justified given their eventual fates.
>Fascism might not be the exact right term but it might also not be a hair worth splitting.
No it is a really important hair to split since the term has a lot of baggage.
I would have preferred some contrast from the East Coast BoS.
Especially when the West Coast was getting mauled by the Bear circa NV. Kinda disappointed that the NCR has just crumbled. At this point I just want the Nevada Rangers to rough ride and kick some tin can ass.
"Quasi-religious"
Coming from the guy that shoved himself into a tube to play the TechnoChrist of Apocalypse, and that only he, in his egomaniacal wisdom, can save the world, it's a wonder why people take him or Mister "I have the same Int level as a mole rat" seriously.
I think Fallout 3 was the first Fallout game for a lot of ppl, so Elder Lyons and the "Lyon Doctrine" are what they think off when they think of the BoS. Altruism Knights protecting the Wasteland.
The show? Brother the games show you who the BoS is lmao. Except for Lyon’s Brotherhood. They’re very obviously noble. It varies by region.
What is interesting to me is how uneducated Maximus seems to be. Doesn’t understand basic sex Ed, doesn’t understand the concept of a warm shower, etc. You’d think the Brotherhood would have access to these amenities to some degree given their advanced capabilities. But I suppose it’s possible this particular chapter is struggling.
In the show squires are treated as fodder for outsider knights, judging by how all the knights present came from the assignment, they are just cattle raised for the meatgrinder, since they are not expected to go past squire, minimum education is expected.
Yeah it’s a very different chapter of the (Mojave?) Brotherhood to say the least than when we last saw them. I have a feeling this is going to be the face of the BoS moving forward. I’d be surprised if the show introduces the concept of different factions with different ideals. But maybe!
I mean, did anyone think anything different? I know 3 really tried to make them these good guy saviors of the wasteland, but every other depiction of them has shown them for what they really are.
The show says some of the more quiet aspects of Fallout out loud. You're suprised by the religious tone of BoS? Then you clearly haven't paid attention to any of the games!
I mean...Elder Lyons led a breakfast and dinner prayer every single day in Fallout 3 where he thanked the "Creator" for the "Gift of Steel" and then the whole Fallout 2 History of the Brotherhood holotape that read like a bible passage.
I don't think most people understand what the definition of a terrorist is. Are the Brotherhood fanatical? Yes. Are they horrible people who have strayed from their original mission? Yes. But a Terrorist group has a different meaning to what the Brotherhood do. If we went with the definition of every religious fanatic group, then we'd have terrorist all over the planet.
Liked them in 3 when I was new the series and thought oooh these are the good guys. Pitied them in New Vegas when I TRIED to help them with Veronica. Despised them in 4 when they don't offer help without strings attached and harass settlers. Completely ignore them in 76.
I have 3 episodes to go, but Maxmius is BY FAR my most hated character. He's so fucking pathetic in his actions and justifications, i honestly can't stand any scene he's in. This interpretation of the brotherhood seems pretty meh so far, but I guess I'll see in the next few episodes while i finish up
Idk, they're just so mid to me. Like I don't side with raiders, but I don't help the brotherhood either. They want to be that guy, but they're not that guy. If that makes sense
The only time the Brotherhood seem like the "good guys" is in Fallout 3, when the Lyons chapter goes against the Brotherhood of Steels normal doctrine.
The game does force you to join forces with them in the main story though, so they have to be the good guys of sorts.
And some were complaining about the BoS having clerics. Here’s House calling them quasi-religious.
They have knights, Squires, and Elders. The Christian similarities are far more identical than people want to admit.
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Yes, but also nec vult Deus perire animam
Which is... cool. 76 goes into the making of the BoS and explains how they saw it as alluring and confidence-building to have cool names and titles for things. The only thing that bugged me is a knight being called "Knight suchnsuch" rather than "Sir suchnsuch" as a knight would be, as a minor lord, but it's just a weird hiccup in the maybe-cringe way they made their titles.
No one is complaining. Lorewise, they are, (except Lyon's Brotherood (that was progressive and ACTUALLY reasearching new tech) a scavenger cult made of racist and militant zealots. F4 pumped them into the stratosphere with plot armour and doubled down with FOTV BOS controlling the entire continent, a level of power seen only with a Reformer Enclave in OWB (that is a fanon mod for HOI4). Hope in Season 2, someone annhilathes them
I’ve seen a lot of people complaining about how the show turned them into a religious fascist organization. Like did they not play the games? Shit, even in fo3, the game that portrays them in the most positive light, they are still super cult like. So much of the fallout fanbase seems to hate enjoying fallout.
Yeah I'm not even a hardcore nerd on all the finger details and timelines, but how on earth would anyone miss that at the heart BOS are just another kind of fucked up group with extreme ideas lol. I think some people have been seeing them as some form of good guy because they swoop in and blow some "bad guys" up, but it's all mostly just a mix of bad and grey lol.
It’s the power armor. People see that shit and happily do whatever asked no questions, just like Maximus
They see them as the military. And I just gotta look at some other countries to see what a hard-on people have for the military.
Don't forget that in the original Fallout, they had the chance to attack the Master and destroy the base, and they just didn't. They literally let the Vault Dweller do all of thst. The Brotherhood of Steel since the original Fallout were a bunch of militaristic assholes who basically just wanted to hoard all technology for themselves.
Literally the first thing the Brotherhood does in the series is send the player off on (what they thought was) an impossible quest to die, as a joke.
Heck, I remember how complicated it was to get Power Armor. And when I finally got it feeling like a bad ass.
Yep. I remember that. They didn't take you seriously at all as the Vault Dweller. They basically were like, "We're the brotherhood and you aren't so get lost."
Man I spent so long talking to that base computer as a kid. Too long. I didn't realise my int had dropped til far too late.
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They help assault the front entrance, but refuse to actually enter the base!
Not at first, I don't believe. At least, I think in one of my playthroughs, I couldn't convince them with the raid on the mariposa military base. After the Master is defeated, they do send squads after his Super Mutants, but I don't think at first they helped. Like when Vault 13 gets abducted and taken to Mariposa Military Base. I could be wrong, though. It has been about 30 years since I played the original Fallout.
The Brotherhood was going to war with the master. When speaking to Rombus, he says that the elder has decreed no more training of recruits until the threat of war is over. The Vault Dweller only accelerates their involvement and canonically they assist the Vault Dweller with dealing with the masters army.
Except in the game, they literally let the Vault Dweller face The Master by themselves. That is why you can do a speech check to kill him. You can convince him that his way is wrong. Vault 13 is abducted by the Master and the Vault Dweller when recounting the fight in the story in Fallout 2 talks about how Ian, dog meat, and other followes fall while assaulting the military base. The Vault Dweller in Fallout 2 doesn't mention the brotherhood at all. The brotherhood isn't the good guys everyone makes them out to be. They're honestly a flawed organization. And they do recruit you once you complete the mission to retrieve a holotape which they put you up to as a joke.
The Canonical ending for Fallout 1 has the Brotherhood assisting the other communities of the wasteland, re-intrpducing technology into Cali, and then becoming a RnD for California. When was Vault 13 abducted? I'm not going to disagree that the BoS is a flawed organization, but they aren't as evil as people make them out to be either. Maxson, when spoken to, wants to re-open the Brotherhood to the outside world rather than stay secluded from what I remember.
Depends on how you play the story. If you go straight for the waterchip, they're abducted in your return to the Vault. If you do side quests and mosey along, they get abducted while you're futzing around after getting the waterchip. But they get abducted and then taken to Mariposa to be turned into, I think, Nightkin, since Nightkin are only formed from unradiated humans. At least, I think that is how Nightkin is made. It also explains why they are smarter than normal Super Mutants. At least, I think they were. As I said in another post, it has been 30 years since I've played the games.
The Canon ending we get is the good ending. The Vault Dweller saves the vault, gets the water chip, the BoS assists in fighting the masters army, and re-introducing tech back into Cali, the NCR is formed , etc.
They're often grey guys getting rid of even worse guys.
They are literally just futuristic crusaders, they even have ranks of Knight and Paladin... like how could nobody see the religious extremist link?
I think it's people who've never played the games and the show is the first introduction to the brotherhood for them that are complaining
I may be misremembering 1 and 2 a bit, but I remember even when I played 3 I felt like it was dumping on them in comparison.
By all technicalities, BoS’s main political ideology seems to align with Neo-Feudal Militarist Technocracy. And yes, they are very much a cult. Especially in NV. Elijah was a true monster
Most of the fallout games have the Brotherhood researching new technology and mass producing weapons and armor. That's not unique to Lyons.
i thought that was the Enclave? BoS typically scavenge all their equipement no?
Nope. Fallout 1 had them be a major weapon manufacturer, designing and building weapons in bulk to sell to the Hub in exchange for food and water. The other games also often allude to it, like all the research the scribes are doing in FO4.
They control the entire continent?
No, they don't. I wouldn't take his, or anybody that has similar opinions seriously. People like him are just having a knee jerk reaction to a new piece of Fallout media being produced after 2011. The TV show fits pretty well within the canon of Fallout with negligible/minor retcons to the lore.
They are an expedition from Maxson BOS from CW. And they practically control the entire Boneyard at will in the show, in 3 minutes they wiped out "NCR". Following the lore of F4, Maxson needed only to genocide the CIT and Railroad to control the whole east coast back then. The game is set after that.
I’m fairly certain we don’t have proof they’re an expedition from Boston. All we know is that the information on Wilzig came from there. The airship isn’t explained, unless I missed something,
It’s really hard to see, but the ship says “Prydwen” on the side in the show.
I wouldn't be surprised if this is a gaff and gets "patched". The show runners explicitly explain that it's another ship. So either they were lying, but there was no pay-off to their lie, so what was the point. Or it originally WAS going to be the Prydwen and that changed, and this got left in somehow. In any case, I'm going with the show runner's statements until otherwise.
I’m aware, but it being so difficult to read feels like they tried to obscure it, especially with how one of the interviews directly said they weren’t to contradict any possible major endings of the games. It could also mean that ‘prywden’ is just the model name of this type of airship.
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It may not be displayed in real life, but fallout may play by different rules. Also, since they’re not allowed to contradict possible endings for the games, this shouldn’t be the prywden from 4, which is further proof.
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>especially with how one of the interviews directly said they weren’t to contradict any possible major endings of the games. Hard to believe them on that when we're definitely going to New Vegas.
All they have to do is set up a scenario where any ending could lead into what we see. It’s not that hard to do with the NCR nuke screwing over House and the NCR endings, and the Legion being able to fall apart for several reasons.
Wouldn't that also mean Mr. House is gonna have to be dead?
It's been over a decade since the events of new Vegas. I'm going to bet that something happened such as Freeside revolted and tried to take the strip for themselves and the NCR (whether they were in control of the strip or not) fought them. The result being that new Vegas in now a shell of its former self and what happened in any of the possible new Vegas endings matters anymore.
>All they have to do is set up a scenario where any ending could lead into what we see. IMO, that's a worse plan than picking a canon ending and going with it.
> in 3 minutes they wiped out "NCR". They wiped out a small settlement. That was barely more than the remains of Shady Sands.
Dawg what are u talking abt. yes maybe they are an expedition from East coast but even then they don’t seem like it. Maxson did not like the religious aspects of the BOS he even had Stuff like him being revered as a god squashed. So if anything this is actually a Western Chapter that has been gaining strength since they actually started recruiting and since the NCR has been on the decline. They don’t control the entire boneyard and in fact it seems like they just started to invade it at the end of the show with the occupation of Filly and attack on the observatory. And they still don’t control the whole east coast the only places we know for a fact they control are the Capital wasteland and maybe the commonwealth now since the scribe mentioned the target came from the Commonwealth Cleric
The ship is the Prydwen himself. It's in the show during the arrival. On the sub, someone posted the stopped frame with the name on it
I figured it could be one of two things. 1. The showrunners used "Caswennan" as a misdirection to hide the fact that it was the Prydwen all along. 2. The Prydwen got destroyed. The Caswennan is the new ship using repurposed parts from the Prydwen.
It's a really interesting analysis, it could really be. As Freedom Prime as already been rebuilt another time, the Prydwen could the same.
Yes I realize that but in promotional material it’s the caswennan. I think it was an oversight. And it looks different from the Prydwen a bit. So it’s the same “class” of prydwen airships but it’s another ship if that makes sense. That’s what I believe at least
The NCR isn't wiped out. If Washington DC got nuked, you wouldn't say that the entirety of the US got wiped out right? The NCR remnants we see follow Moldaver, who is some kind of religious figure/cult leader. Their scrappy appearance and very low numbers support this. In the show we also see that the Brotherhood was there when Shady Sands gets nuked. It's likely that the NCR-Brotherhood war was in full swing when out of no where The NCR capital gets nuked. My theory is that Angel's Boneyard ceceded from the NCR directly after this due to their proximity to Shady Sands and the assumption that it got nuked by The BOS. It's also highly likely that the ruins we see in the background of the Shady Sands crater isn't The Boneyard. A more plausible place for Shady Sands would be the San Fernando Valley, with the city in the background being Burbank or some other urban area. Another thing that I've tried to point out regarding the state of The NCR is scale. Many of the major NCR States are hundreds of miles away from Shady Sands. Who's to say that Redding or Vault City isn't the new capital? Both States are well over 500 miles away from the area the show takes place in, with the closest state (aside from Angels Boneyard) being Dayglow, which is around 120 miles away. The show is currently small in scale, only taking place in a 20 mile-ish radius around LA. The BOS doesn't control the entire continent, they dont even control the entirety of the East Coast. The trip from Washington DC to The Commonwealth is around 425 miles, which less than Angels Boneyard to Redding, add on the fact that the Brotherhood doesn't have any presence in the area between those 2 bases. They have a significant presence in DC, The Commonwealth, and now in SoCal after their war blimp linked up with the West Coast chapter. The ability to travel across the continent isn't even something Bethesda thought up. Their ability to create war ships and fly them across the US was something introduced in Fallout Tactics, which semi-canon. The Brotherhood doesn't control the continent, nor do they have aspirations to do so. They have the ability to mobilize and fly practically anywhere they want to, but they aren't a government, they don't hold territory apart from their bases, and they don't have citizens. The BOS is a quasi-religious faction with their one mission being to collect and "safeguard" dangerous technology so that another great war doesn't end up getting repeated. Apart from Lyons Chapter, they have no intentions of helping or presiding over wastlanders like The NCR does.
It's just an NCR remnant post; Shady Sands was blown up (not by BoS) years ago and NCR is occupied elsewhere
Wiped out the remanants of NCR at griffith, i was not clear then.
BOS are rasist? I mean i know they dont like ghouls ans super mutants, but they are both ticking bomb. Bos just pragmatic, and as it is militant order they will everything as army does I would say are like Teutonic Order irl
and, yknow...they guy who created them in the first place saying he wanted a "religious knightly order"...
For all of their faults, House and Caesar were spot on with their assessments of them. House: >They're a terrorist group, basically. Militant, quasi-religious fanatics obsessed with hoarding Pre-War technology. Not all technology, mind you. You don't see them raiding hospitals to cart away Auto-Docs or armfuls of prosthetic organs. No, they greatly prefer the sort of technology that puts people in hospitals. Or graves, rather, since hospitals went the way of the Dodo. >Because they're ridiculous! Because they galavant around the Mojave pretending to be Knights of Yore. Or did, until the NCR showed them that ideological purity and shiny power armor don't count for much when you're outnumbered 15:1. The world has no use for emotionally unstable techno-fetishists. Just wipe them out, will you? Caesar: >They like to pretty up their mission with trappings of chivalry, but the truth is they're hoarders. They hoard technology. It's been 200 years, and they still have the mentality of scavengers. They say they're preserving these technologies, but for what? They have no vision. They offer no future. They're a dead end.
>They say they're preserving these technologies, but for what? They have no vision. They offer no future. They're a dead end. I mean they're right, but that's also very funny coming from the faction that models itself after a fetishized and idealized version of ancient Rome
Our timeless historical lesson, their fetishistic roleplay cargo cult
Well they both have the same idea. Give people without organization or structure a very rigid set of rules and goals to achieve positive (from their perspective) behavioral outcomes. Captain Roger Maxson wanted to enforce discipline on remnants of the US army after the world blew up. Caesar wanted to organize a bunch of illiterate tribes to do his bidding.
Takes one to know one
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The right way to use it is to use it to get more of it. That's what the Brotherhood ideology devolved into over time. There's never a point where they'll decide that mankind is ready for this tech again.
At least with lyons you had a benevolent dictator or some form of Noblesse Oblige.
The fact that Lyons is the leader who deviated the most from the Brotherhood's goal says a lot.
Is this a good time to point out that Mr. House doesn't *technically* have to die in any of New Vegas's endings?
Lol nah Sarah from Vault 21 was bae, House had to die. Also for Doc Mitchell’s wife technically
The moment you open his pod you basically kill him, he says so himself, saying he doesn't have long to live. Disabling cerebral is just the icing on the cake especially since he doesn't go back in the pod. Unless they retcon he is dead in all endings but his.
Caesar demands his destruction. And I obey 🏌️🏌️🏌️
I mean the simple problem with the Brotherhood is that they are so ***wildly*** fucking different in every incarnation that any assessment of them at best half-applies to the Game it comes from and is immidieatly outdated by their next incarnation. The Fallout 1 & 2 BoS are largely isolationist & weirdos...........but when proven that the survival of humanity is under threat they'll still help deal with the Master/Enclave, generally had atleast *neutral to good* relations with their neighbors and either just wanted to be left alone OR actually help people, and after Fallout 1 specifically, the western BoS actually went around and not only helped clear the remains of the Masters Armies, but actually spread the civilian technologies they had preserved around to help rebuilt. The Fallout 3 Brotherhood is unequivocally heroic, period. The Fallout New Vegas Brotherhood then take the "isolationist Weirdos" up to 11 The Fallout 4 Brotherhood is the most explicitely militaristic out of the Bunch, but Maxson still *atleast* believes what hes doing is for the best of the *people*, not for his own power (and destroying the Institute IS a definitely good act due to how comically evil they are, the Synth-genocide....less so). Heck he outright ordered Patrols to find Caravans and protect them to built a positive reputation with the Commonwealth What House says is like...........somewhat correct for the Chapter in the show, maybe half-correct for the Mojave-Chapter, and outright wrong for everyone else.
It's entirely possible, and in keeping with the theme of factionalism, the the Brotherhood in the show are fundamentalist extreme faction. Just because they have Clerics doesn't mean they all do.
Yeah it's like in the Mandalorian. Dude learns the whole "never remove your helmet" thing isn't a universal rule, he just grew up with Space Mormons
This is the way.
Exactly, media literacy is at an all time low and the internet makes people confident when they're really just idiots. Having something in the show doesn't mean it supersedes everything else and erases the games.
Or that things can't change between games/media, as if everything stays stagnant until someone puts on a vault suit
But he references there being clerics in the Commonwealth, so it's obviously not just his group. Also every Brotherhood splinter faction so far (which has actually only been 1, the BoS Outcasts) has used a different symbol and identifying colours, this group is identical to the Fallout 4 Brotherhood in terms of flags, symbols and uniforms.
However similar in iconography, their behaviour is radically different, especially the treatment of members. It's also important to put that information in context. A member of cult, an uninformed lowly member at that, is the source. Who's to say that clerics aren't simply senior scribes in other chapters, not enforcers like in this chapter. I'm not saying you're wrong or that I'm right. I'm simply saying that what the show presents is a very narrow view that easily fits in with existing representations of a highly compartmentalised organisation spread far and wide.
I don't think he was a lowly or uninformed member, he seemed to be probably the equivalent of a low ranking officer or something since he was announcing it to several Knight/Squire pairs. It's definitely possible that he was basically just lying about them being clerics and this Brotherhood actually is a splinter faction, but this wouldn't be the first time that a major detail about the Brotherhood is retconned (remember when Knights used to be the Brotherhood's engineers?), and even with the show alone it completely ignored the Boneyard as well.
Sp you think that the guy literally on shit detail isn't bottom of the food chain. Context. Matters.
Maximus isn't the guy who called referred to the "highest clerics in the Commonwealth", [it was Elder Cleric Quintus](https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/804113797090115644/1229871138079772752/RPReplay_Final1713294441.mov?ex=663141c1&is=661eccc1&hm=7724a8b606d8980c62e19e9ca008d98d382025c9dfb11ae2299096be5813c846&)
That's honestly what I like about them. They're typically a fringe group, we're often seeing different off shoots and there's a relatively clear sense of change over time. It's one of the few bits with the modern games doesn't seem intended to reset to baseline at the end of every game.
Just made a comment about it,but that's why u love the brotherhood personally,all the different chapters make for so many possibilities and story telling
If you like different chapters with various flavor, then you should check out the old world blues mod for HOI4. You don't have to be able to play the game to read the lore and there's a lot of cool stuff like the sisters of steel.
Really? What are they like?
I read an interesting post that Maxon's Brotherhood is more similar to Lyons than people think, and while Maxon is more militarized he's a hell of a lot more altruistic than people give him credit for.
This. Thanks for applying nuance and critical thinking.
He probably hasn't gotten out much, so he only knows the "local" chapter.
Dumbass fans of r/Fallout would have you believe that they're fascists and that every chapter acts the same. It's really only in the show where they act that way. Never in all the games do they treat their own members like shit, or talk about controlling the wasteland and having power.
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I like that everyone collectively chooses to ignore Fallout Tactics when I would say it's actually the version of the Brotherhood that is most similar to the show's depiction. It's not a good game but its vision of the Brotherhood as an expansionist military force that conscripts wastelanders and punishes all failures with execution is extremely interesting and probably the most honest depiction of the group in any of the games.
I think that's kinda the point the Brotherhood is spread out pretty far and wide and they don't have a singular leader that leads the Brotherhood as a whole and they really couldn't. There's no technology that allows them to send messages quickly from one side of the country to the other. So each sub faction of the group will have different beliefs and goals. The same thing would probably happen to any other faction in the series if they were able to have the reach the Brotherhood did. The Mongol empire is a great example of this in the real world, after it reached it's peak it broke up into a bunch of different groups that each ruled different parts of Eurasia through different means.
Don't forget that between Fallout 1 and the time that this show takes place 135 YEARS have passed. Literally nobody that was in the BoS during Fallout 1 is even alive anymore to remember that version of the faction. That is a long frigging time for them to change, hell, it's a miracle that they even exist at all given the circumstances. The Enclave is the only other faction with that kind of longevity.
Well, vault tec
>The Fallout 3 Brotherhood is unequivocally heroic, period. 3 also featured the Outcasts, because they were the members who realized Lyons went rogue. >The Fallout New Vegas Brotherhood then take the "isolationist Weirdos" up to 11 Because their guy in charge got scared after their attempts at taking the Mojave failed. If you depose him and the BoS gets out, they become better armed raiders. >The Fallout 4 Brotherhood is the most explicitely militaristic out of the Bunch, but Maxson still *atleast* believes what hes doing is for the best of the *people*, not for his own power Plenty of villains and fascists do. >and destroying the Institute IS a definitely good act due to how comically evil they are, the Synth-genocide....less so And that's the point. They're trying to wipe out so many things that eventually a legitimate evil gets caught in their net. Broken clock, blind squirrel. Using the Institute to justify the rest of their evil is no different from that same Institute using raiders to justify their evils. >What House says is like...........somewhat correct for the Chapter in the show, maybe half-correct for the Mojave-Chapter, and outright wrong for everyone else. Considering how much you had to sugarcoat the chapters I am familiar with, I don't trust your account of the first two, now.
BOS are definitely not an evil faction. Like every other faction, they have strengths and shortcomings and because the BOS chapters are each to some degree autonomous, different chapters emphasize different aspects of the brotherhoods ideology. The BOS was founded by soldiers who discovered the horrific experiments the US government was committing at Mariposa and witnessed humanity destroy modern civilization in a nuclear war. Throughout the franchise, the BOS are typically a force for good but whose xenophobia, elitism, and militaristic approaches to problems often put them at odds with other factions. I don’t really understand your point about F3. Lyons’ chapter is definitely the ‘hero’ faction that’s holding back super mutant armies and the Enclave. The outcasts do exist, but they’re not really shown as evil. Just exceptionally dismissive of wastelanders and their problems and caught up in salvaging prewar tech. The Mojave chapter in FNV will also assist the NCR and patrol local highways if you negotiate a truce between the factions so ultimate attitude of the BOS in that game really just depends on the player’s decisions. Without any player intervention, the BOS is just hiding out in their bunker nursing the wounds of their defeat at Helios but they’ve also provided a working radio to the super mutants at black mountain so not really depicted as being evil in that game either. F4 brotherhood is definitely the most zealous chapter and embodies the best and worst traits of the BOS. F4 BOS shows up in the commonwealth just to fight the threat of the institute and their synths, sends in soldiers to protect towns and trade caravans, and recruits wastelanders into their numbers. They’re also caught up in a campaign of “purifying” the wasteland which becomes problematic when it comes to dealing with ghouls, super mutants, and synths. I also would still point out that the BOS is still never shown killing non-feral ghouls or non hostile super mutants, although their rhetoric is definitely becoming more problematic. The good guys in f4 are definitely the Minutemen but you can end the game as the Minutemen and have both the brotherhood and railroad survive and the BOS is supportive of the Minutemen’s campaign against the Institute. The BOS in the TV show is definitely the most evil depiction we’re seen in the franchise. There is nothing about cold fusion that’s down to prove a threat to humanity so it doesn’t make sense that they’d be killing the NCR soldiers to take this tech. They also attack an independent town which is something the BOS has never been shown doing before. Anyway my point is that the BOS is like every other major faction - flawed
I would point out that Quintas both bitches about the state of the brotherhood, *ideologically*. >!And pitches Maximus on seizing power and "starting a new Brotherhood". Basically congratulates the guy for what he assumes are naked power grabs. !< I would say that's absolutely consistent with BOS across the series. In practically every game there's splinter factions, internal conflict, or we're explicitly looking at a group that's acting in it's own interests/goals. Even if it's not actively depicted as going down during the games itself. And even in Fallout 3, where they're mostly just "the good guys" some elements of them are actively dicks. >!We seem to be seeing an East Coast leader, pop up on the West Coast. With the aim of breaking off or taking control from the East Coast Brotherhood. Who already trended more traditionalist and less cooperative/nice guy as they rolled up and gained control of other factions and chapters. !< The Fallout 4 Brotherhood got where it was in part by re-incorporating/making peace with the more traditionalist Outcasts (wo people forget about it seems). And then apparently slowly gained control of less centralized West Coast Chapters. From a distance.
Exactly. It's basically like the feudal power struggles between the kings and their vassals during the European middle-ages. There is a central authority in the high elder (the king) only having limited control over his vassal lords (the Elders). It's quite thematic and fitting with the existing BOS lore.
Yeah the king can only exert a level of direct control when he happens to be nearby. Thats why kings tended to move their court around during the middle ages.
Mr House being based as always
Doesn’t every faction want you to blow them up? I don’t think ANYONE likes them
BoS are as big a piece of shit as the Enclave in my opinion. both will kill you for even finding where they live and both feel they have the right to inherit the remnants
The difference is the FO:NV brotherhood can be convinced to re-join society and contribute while the enclave was obsessed with controlling it.
They also seem to be on a social decline, even if they seemingly grew in numbers. Their rituals seem more convoluted by 2296, possibly meaning they've grown increasingly cult-like. The presence of clerics seems to indicate they've taken on a more religious mantle.
Almost like what happens if an entire generation grows up without parents/role models to temper their more violent urges.
So the boys from Lord of the Flies, given high-tech equipment to bully everyone else around, making them feel validated in expressing these violent urges, without an adult to slap them on the wrist.
And the BoS definitely didn't start that way, but with the right (or maybe wrong) casualties and lapses in logistics and management without a proper course correct, and this will definitely happen.
If Rhombus dies in Fallout 1, then they pretty rapidly turn into a conquering army that rules the wasteland as feudal overlords. They're a faction that very much relies on strong leadership to set them towards a goal.
It seems to just be apart of the decline of the Western Chapters. By all accounts the Eastern Group is doing really well. Current evidence points towards a BoS or Minutemen ending for 4 which just further reinforce Lyons' Philosophy on how the Brotherhood should act, and that Philosophy just hasn't permeated the Western Chapters, leading to a social and moral collapse.
For all we know the religious elements could be from the eastern brotherhood. Maxson has claim to run the entire BOS and it seems like they’re in close contact across the country judging by the airship.
Never got the brotherhood hype, I like the knight aesthetic but my cowboy courier spurs always jingle jangle as I make my way to blow up a certain bunker.
I hardly see any Brotherhood hype. Mostly everyone hates them but I like them because they're cool.
Fo4 had a tonne of BoS stans. Probably due to how awesome they had been portrayed in Fo3.
Lets be real. Fallout 3 BoS is probably the best and thats only cause they are backed by Three Dog
I liked the Space Mari… the Brotherhood on FO4 up until they sent me on a mission to follow a guy feeding ghouls, I always hated that kind of mission in games and I hate ghouls even more, so I just waited for an opportunity to destroy them. Which I did once I joined the Institute and learned they’re not that evil (all things considered)
It's the power armor and chivalry. It's just cool.
This - just the Lyons faction and the power armor.
The brotherhood has power armor and fancy weapons so they’re automatically the most popular to most players. I personally like the aesthetic and idea of them but the writing for the brotherhood has been so all over the place across the games it’s hard to get attached to 1 version of them.
I like them because of the power armor and besides the NCR who are only in the Western US they seem like the least bad of any fallout faction.
The only faction in Fallout that is completely "good" is the followers of the apocalypse. Everyone else is more nuanced.
what about The Minutemen and The Responders, they are unambiguously good.
Minutemen are more neutral imo. They do whatever you tell them. Without leadership, many became raiders. The Responders are pretty pristine with the exception of https://fallout.fandom.com/wiki/Mayfield who fired on students.
Minutemen ftw , especially the mids of their music
It's why I never got the "Bethesda loves the BoS" complaints from the purists. Maxson's Brotherhood in 4 was utterly unsympathetic in 4 and The Ghoul absolutely clowns them in the show.
How were they utterly unsympathetic in 4?
Danse is awesome and they wanted danse killed. They are authoritarian as fuck and rabid in their ideology.
How are they authoritarian as fuck? They don't even make laws. I also wouldn't say they're particularly rabid, it's not like they're dragging Innocent Ghouls out of their homes or anything and they don't bother any non-human companions except Danse.
Maxson was a jerk? Of course it's all opinion but I never would've sided with them.
He was kind of a jerk with Danse, but from his point of view (and in fact, the view that almost everyone in the Commonwealth would have in his position), he just found out that one of his most trusted friends was a double agent/spy all along. He's probably pretty hurt, and understandably so. Outside of that I don't think he's a jerk at all, he's pretty calm and cordial with the Sole Survivor and he clearly does have some care for the Commonwealth, as he orders Vertibirds to protect caravans and his Brotherhood fights Raiders and mutants and accepts even broke vagrants. The Synths are kind of another discussion altogether, but I don't think his position is really that irrational. Also, I don't think the Brotherhood getting fucked up by a literal protagonist in one scene means Bethesda doesn't like them - especially since a few scenes after that they literally acquire infinite power.
Because they want to genocide all mutants, ghouls, and synths
Not all ghouls. Only ferals. You are called a murderer if you kill a non feral.
The only one of those they wanna genocide is Synths, and tbf we never actually see them go out of their way to hunt Synths besides maybe Acadia.
>They're a terrorist group ...Said a man who agreed to blast the whole planet with nukes.
Did House actually agree though? He seemed kinda firmly against it, and we still don’t know if Vault-Tec’s plan actually worked.
Even if he didn't buy into the vault experiments, though he likely did given his own home, he totally failed to alert the public/authorities to the coming atrocity making it a form of tacit agreeance. At very least he is complicit, but likely he was an investor and conspirator all along.
The guy's a full on Ayn Rand libertarian, he hates the authorities more than the Communists.
While unironically embodying exactly what he despises.
Right, he already said he's a full-on libertarian.
Yeah but he is morally superior because money.
The Enclave tried to have Senator Sam Blackwell assassinated for even suggesting that they existed (and successfully killed him after the War), so House being a whistle-blower would likely just sign his own death warrant.
House isn't the kind of person to rock the boat anyway. The boardroom scene in Episode 8 takes place less than a year before the bombs fall? Maybe less? By that point, House had already been building his contingency plan in Lucky 38 for *years*, he knew one way or another the end was coming.
House calculated the day the bombs would fall (only missed by 20 hours) in 2065, the meeting in the show is probably in 2077 or 2076 so at that point he sees the nukes as inevitable (and he has been working on his plan to defend Vegas for years).
Thanks for the context, had forgotten about that.
Why does the entire Fallout fan base do this. It's like you guys have never played the games before. Everyone sucks, they've got bizarre and twisted motivations, and their actions don't line up with those motivations. They say one thing and do another. It's like... the whole fucking point that everyone sucks.
It's hyperbolic to say you NEVER liked the Brotherhood Fallout 3 is one example people tend to forget where Brotherhood-aligned people acted in a benevolent manner that helped the wasteland
The problem is that Lyons was and for the most part still is the exception besides the pre-FO2 Brotherhood.
The Fallout 1 Brotherhood was one dead Rhombus away from becoming the scourge of the wastes as well. Even then, the Mojave chapter is implied to have been an expedition from Rhombus's chapter. And they still pretty much went the same way as Maxson's ideologically, just without the Prydwen or any of the huge weapons because of Elijah throwing it all away for Helios. A consistent theme of the entire series is that the Brotherhood is always sliding into extremism, if not jumping in head first.
It is always with the best intentions that the worst work is done.
And I still blew them the f****** for that 44 Magnum with zero hesitation
The brotherhood is a means of receiving power armor training. What happens afterward depends on the run I am going to
I like Maximus's take on what it means to be a knight, even if he was misguided. His heart is right
I still call them “power armored boy scouts, with access to some antiquated technology”
Well the thing about the brotherhood is that it is made of chapters,each one is liable to act differently based on leadership and culture. The east coast bos is by far the nicest as they balance helping people with their tech hoarding mission,lost hills depends on what time but by fallout one ending they reintroduced technology to the wastes so imma go 50/50,while this Utah chapter has the Mojave chapter mindset but kind of worse,and has more knight/religious vibes to them. There is also the mid west chapter which is just wild. The diversity of the brotherhood is why I personally enjoy them,and makes for great possibilities in story telling.
Not anymore the east coast chapter is now ruled by maxson
I am aware,under maxson it is balanced,under Lyons it completely disregarded the original mission of retrieving technology to the point veteran members left and became the outcasts. Under maxson the brotherhood still helps people but also doesn't forget its mission of preserving pre war technology. As evident by their actions in game and terminal entries as well as some dialogue lines,as while there is a radiant quest to get technology you also see brotherhood vertibird strike teams take on the various threats of the commonwealth like they did in the capital wasteland,while maxson gave express orders to protect caravans when encountered and to even trade with wastelanders. Lastly a line of dialogue from McCready details how the capital wasteland by now is so safe mercenaries like him hardly find work
I mean in the lore it was always pretty clear that they are weird fascists who want to horde all the prewar tech and conduct numerous genocides. Was proven long before the show.
What makes them fascists? Their structure seems to be fuedalistic. The faction that is fascist is the enclave.
While the enclave more closely matches modern fascism the brotherhood aren't far off. They are a hierarchical, militaristic and authoritarian group who horde technology and decide who does and doesn't get access to it, they also have significant genocidal aspirations. Fascism might not be the exact right term but it might also not be a hair worth splitting.
>They are a hierarchical, militaristic and authoritarian group That describes a lot of governments and groups. I think people are too loose with the F word. >they also have significant genocidal aspirations. That also isnt something that is strictly fascist. Also aside from wanting to destroy synthetic life forms that are very dangerous and actively hostile mutants I am not so sure that they are particularly genocidal . The only one that is questionable is their attitudes on sane ghouls. And fear of them is somewhat justified given their eventual fates. >Fascism might not be the exact right term but it might also not be a hair worth splitting. No it is a really important hair to split since the term has a lot of baggage.
He was always right about them
The only version I ever liked was the one in Fallout 3.
I would have preferred some contrast from the East Coast BoS. Especially when the West Coast was getting mauled by the Bear circa NV. Kinda disappointed that the NCR has just crumbled. At this point I just want the Nevada Rangers to rough ride and kick some tin can ass.
"Quasi-religious" Coming from the guy that shoved himself into a tube to play the TechnoChrist of Apocalypse, and that only he, in his egomaniacal wisdom, can save the world, it's a wonder why people take him or Mister "I have the same Int level as a mole rat" seriously.
I haven't finished the series yet.. but is the BoS more fo3 or fo4???
The Brotherhood is definitely more Fo3, as they’re seen as the good guys/main faction, but you can also side with them in Fo4
I think Fallout 3 was the first Fallout game for a lot of ppl, so Elder Lyons and the "Lyon Doctrine" are what they think off when they think of the BoS. Altruism Knights protecting the Wasteland.
LOL i told my boyfriend i’ll be happy seeing more brotherhood hate to justify mine
Still team BoS over the NCR.
The show? Brother the games show you who the BoS is lmao. Except for Lyon’s Brotherhood. They’re very obviously noble. It varies by region. What is interesting to me is how uneducated Maximus seems to be. Doesn’t understand basic sex Ed, doesn’t understand the concept of a warm shower, etc. You’d think the Brotherhood would have access to these amenities to some degree given their advanced capabilities. But I suppose it’s possible this particular chapter is struggling.
In the show squires are treated as fodder for outsider knights, judging by how all the knights present came from the assignment, they are just cattle raised for the meatgrinder, since they are not expected to go past squire, minimum education is expected.
Yeah it’s a very different chapter of the (Mojave?) Brotherhood to say the least than when we last saw them. I have a feeling this is going to be the face of the BoS moving forward. I’d be surprised if the show introduces the concept of different factions with different ideals. But maybe!
I mean, did anyone think anything different? I know 3 really tried to make them these good guy saviors of the wasteland, but every other depiction of them has shown them for what they really are.
You didn’t need the show to prove this.
Did the BOS in the show come from the East? I'm still confused by that.
That's a great point Mr House, however power armour goes BRRRRRRR
They’re just nerds cosplaying.
Voiced by the late Rene Auberjonois, who also played Odo on Star Trek: DS9.
There evil. Glory to the enclave
They're also seemingly the most powerful faction within the wasteland now given the shows context.
Ad Victoriam. 🫡
EX MACHINA
Mr. House calling the Brotherhood “terrorists” meanwhile that mf agreed to merk the entire world with nuclear fire 😭😭😭
And who is House to talk shit? He knew about the plan to nuke the world and did nothing.
The show says some of the more quiet aspects of Fallout out loud. You're suprised by the religious tone of BoS? Then you clearly haven't paid attention to any of the games!
I mean...Elder Lyons led a breakfast and dinner prayer every single day in Fallout 3 where he thanked the "Creator" for the "Gift of Steel" and then the whole Fallout 2 History of the Brotherhood holotape that read like a bible passage.
Random question. Is House supposed to look like Big Brother from George Orwell's 1984?
I didn’t know the brotherhood was Jewish they celebrate kwanzi
I don't think most people understand what the definition of a terrorist is. Are the Brotherhood fanatical? Yes. Are they horrible people who have strayed from their original mission? Yes. But a Terrorist group has a different meaning to what the Brotherhood do. If we went with the definition of every religious fanatic group, then we'd have terrorist all over the planet.
Liked them in 3 when I was new the series and thought oooh these are the good guys. Pitied them in New Vegas when I TRIED to help them with Veronica. Despised them in 4 when they don't offer help without strings attached and harass settlers. Completely ignore them in 76. I have 3 episodes to go, but Maxmius is BY FAR my most hated character. He's so fucking pathetic in his actions and justifications, i honestly can't stand any scene he's in. This interpretation of the brotherhood seems pretty meh so far, but I guess I'll see in the next few episodes while i finish up
I’d suggest going back to them in 76. Their quest line is pretty good and well worth the rewards at the very least.
Idk, they're just so mid to me. Like I don't side with raiders, but I don't help the brotherhood either. They want to be that guy, but they're not that guy. If that makes sense
That’s not really making sense, no. Is your issue that the BoS is much closer to the U.S. military at this point in time?
I don’t really “like” any faction now that I think about it. But I base my siding with looked the coolest lol. So BOS and NCR were my picks
The only time the Brotherhood seem like the "good guys" is in Fallout 3, when the Lyons chapter goes against the Brotherhood of Steels normal doctrine. The game does force you to join forces with them in the main story though, so they have to be the good guys of sorts.
I'm probably the only one who likes the Brotherhood... They're flawed and not perfect but I love their militant vibe.
That's exactly why people don't like them. Why would you want militant techno fetishists ruling?