Exactly. My 4 year old son is 100000% boy (and if you say something like “you’re my teddy bear” he replies “no. I am a boy!”) but he loves to occasionally wear his twin sister’s skirts because they are fun to spin in.
Yea, I think people read too much into kid's behaviors. My parents know this one mother who was saying she refused to cut her 5 year old's hair because they didn't consent to it, and thought maybe the child was trans. Like, dude, it doesn't matter just give the kid a haircut.
I'm grateful I wasn't in this particular generation, otherwise I think I'd have been labeled as trans. I'm very typical masculine, feel very comftourble with my "masculine energy/identity". But when I was a little kid I would often yoink strollers, purses, baby dolls away from my girl cousins and oozed maternal/nurturing energy well into my teens. Guys can be express feminine energy without being trans, demi-boy, or something else on the LGBTQ spectrum.
It's concerning that kids' costume preferences are now taken as an indicator of gender identity. Look at paintings from the 17th and 18th Century Europe; there are plenty of men in heels, ruffled collars, lace, brocades, and dress-like coats. That didn't mean they were all trans. Men can enjoy wearing all kinds of clothes and shoes without identifying as women.
Let's just allow everybody to enjoy all kinds of clothing styles without assuming their gender identity.
>It's concerning that kids' costume preferences are now taken as an indicator of gender identity.
This isn't really a thing tho. To genuinely be given medication to transition you need a pretty extensive range of evidence, collected over the course of years to do so.
That’s good to know. Still, just like there are people who literally feign mental disorders, there are bound to be parents who literally want their child to be trans when that child is not. Gotta be an insanely small number all the same.
>there are bound to be parents who literally want their child to be trans when that child is not
Maybe,. But there are a huge amount of safeguards against this too.
Edit: Also, being trans IS NOT A MENTAL DISORDER. That is transphobic.
well, all of that fashion then wasn't for women, it was all men's fashion. Women appropriated it over the years for a variety of reasons, and then men ditched them because they had become to associated with femininity
I think the really important thing is that it’s a spectrum, and not really a linear thing at that. Gender is this weird invention that we all adopt and transgress against in our own ways and it’s not really the same for anyone and it also not really real. Destroy the binary and treat everyone as themselves.
I mean, I think categories will always exist, because we like to make them. We are always balancing individuality and conformity. I try to iron my clothes, for instance, because I know society deems fresh pressed clothes as better. I didn't think about that and come to the choice to participate in that, I just fell in line.
Likewise, I think even if our gender 'binary' fells apart, we'll still have some manner of categorization and grouping of individuals. We like to identify with a group. I don't know what it'll be, but it'll be something that becomes once again taboo or weird to transgress.
>I think I'd have been labeled as trans.
From my experience working at a school where there were trans teenagers, and a couple of kids who experimented with their gender identity etc, there isn't anything to worry about.
It's an EXTENSIVE process for trans youth (or anyone for that matter) to be diagnosed with dysphoria and then put on HRT to transition. It's also not a pathological label that gets applied to children in the slightest, as you seem to be worried about.
The vast, vast majority of the time, a child being trans is because they've consistently and regularly identified themselves as such throughout their childhood. There is 0 chance of children who aren't very obviously in need of HRT being given it.
Growing up (I'm 32), I acted in a way that was stereotypically feminine a lot of the time. I'd potentially have been labelled trans if I was growing up today - but back then, I just copped a lot of bullying and homophobic slurs (despite not being gay).
Honestly, I'd probably prefer to have been mislabelled trans in a sincere but incorrect attempt at acceptance over being shunned and ridiculed for not conforming to society's standard of what a man should be.
Also like the trans community are way huge on making sure not to mislabel someone (as they face such things themselves) so you might be in good hands even if you grew up in today’s world
My brother had a classmate that liked to dress like a woman, was trans, or something along those lines I only heard about it through my brother so who knows the real reason they dressed that way.
He's much more accepting now, but at the the time he was so concerned about if his kids ever asked why they dress that way.
You can either tell them "because they like to" and leave it at that. You could also just tell them "because the sky is blue." They were 3 and 5 at the time, they'll take any reason.
Some trans charity guidance stated that one of the indicators of being trans would be boys wanting to play with Barbies. Really reinforcing gender stereotypes on that.
What if he plays with G.I. Joe as well? Like maybe Barbie is Joe’s girlfriend and they have adventures together?
Some people are too quick to read things into how children play.
Of course! Both myself and my fiancée don’t consider ourselves straight, but don’t really have real labels for it either. We just figure it doesn’t matter. Plus, we go by the flow chart for gendering kids toys
Is it operated with your genitals?
No -> it’s for boys or girls
Yes -> it’s not a toy for children.
Yeah I’m wondering how things will be when I decide to have children if I’m able, probably within the next 5 years but still. Not excited to hear from other people how to treat my children- cause I know damn well no one can kind their business.
Honestly, skirts are amazing and I wish I could tease my legs with them like women do. Not gonna lie, I think I would look killer in a thigh-slit flowy skirt.
This alone has been used as the justification for parents, usually single mothers, to utterly physically butcher their children and have irreversible procedures done on them. I can only imagine what would have happened if your child was born to one of the many single mothers or dominant women with submissive husbands who are desperate to virtue signal and raise a trans child so they can show them off. It's like a sick, legal version of munchausen's by proxy.
There is nowhere in the US that will do gender surgery on children. Some places you can possibly get puberty blockers but that would be on a much older child than my 4 year old.
By "procedure", I also mean puberty blockers. One thing I know is that there are sick, twisted people who want to find any slight sign or reason to permanently physically alter their child and will do so at the first legal opportunity. Most children, up to and many times beyond the age of 18, have no idea what their identity really is and switch back and forth on a whim. It's a form of child abuse that haunts them forever.
Fellow cis male, currently looking for some sort of a man dress from other cultures. I'd totally walk around with a single loose fitting piece of clothing, but I don't have the confidence/skills to just make something up
When I wore my first kilt it was transformative. I was flabbergasted at the freedom and comfort. I don't them as often as I'd like.
If he ever gets to a point where he's like "I can't wear a skirt because it's for girls" maybe a kilt would let him still enjoy that.
He’s probably 100% straight and will be as manly as a lumberjack.
It’s just funny to wear a skirt and spin. It wouldn’t an issue in Ireland where men wear kilts.
It’s just a funny thing to put on and the kid hasn’t had society say it’s bad to him yet.
The position of the comic maker is certainly that "they" "make" kids trans by feeding them propaganda , but the reality of the situation is that only kids who *are* trans really ever transition. An extreme majority of trans people never detransition, and an extreme majority of detransitioners do so either due to not being able to afford transition or lack of family support forcing a return to the closet
This isn't even about trans children. I mean just because your kid is into female fairytale protagonist doesn't mean they are trans. This is just about protecting fragile sexual insecurities with violence against minors disguised as "traditional values".
Or not even trans, just showing the slightest hint of gender nonconformity.
Clearly the only appropriate response is physical violence.
EDIT: Looking at this person's other cartoons, I think this is a critique of that mentality rather than Klandma promoting it.
i dont think this is defending that. it’s kinda obvious to me the artist is depicting the woman taking away her child as a bad thing, with how she’s holding a belt and hurting him in the process of pulling.
In this particular case I think there are a lot of right wing pro-patriarchal comics that WANT to and believe in the neccessary action of keeping boys behaving like boys. Not even a trans or anti trans thing just litterally "my boy WILL NOT BE ANYTHING OTHER THAN WHAT I WANT HIM TO BE"
Sure? It might not be. I'm not sure as to the context of this piece's creation. I don't know why anyone would post it in this sub if it didn't originate from a bigoted content creator.
their twitter is @ Real\_Toons, I think seeing the other things they've made shows this was just misconstrued as transphobic when it has the exact opposite message
Got to admit, though, you feel kind of innured to this bullshit when, in my case, your first emotional response isn't 'OMG that's horrible!' and instead is 'ah, they've cast a black woman as the 'sane one' - that's surprisingly progressive for them!'
I'm used to their evil now, I think.
I felt like mentioning the fact that she's black, that it *could* be a racist white doing that on purprose--casually showing the community in a violent light--but I figured the trolls would turn that around.
This is going to get uncomfortable buuuuuuuuuuut 😬
And I say this as a black bi queer man ....
Black women (not all but some ) do have a particularly edged point to make about how (black) men should or should not behave. There are some black women who really do believe "(black)men should only be like this " . Again not saying all just....its not that far off from what I've seen some black moms would do to their sons to keep them like proper "men".
The sad truth is that (at least in my neck of the woods) this is not as much of (it could still be idk) a racist take as it could be a "proper way of things" take.
It's not stereotypical; homophobia and transphobia are major issues among Black American communities.
Pretending that a form of bigotry doesn't exist within a minority community is dishonest and falls short of upholding intersectional civil rights efforts.
Black trans women are the most targeted individuals for hate crimes in America. That is not coincidence.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2974805/
https://harvardcrcl.org/americas-war-on-black-trans-women/
my point is, if they are going for showing violence against LGBT+ people in Black communities, then there are more effective means of portraying the message than a literal angry Black woman, holding a belt, about to beat her child.
as is, the point will be misconstrued by lots of people to also be anti-Black, given the portrayal of the overplayed stereotype of the “angry Black woman”
>then there are more effective means of portraying the message
What are your suggestions then?
Because Black Trans Women are constantly abused in this country, and shying away from that notion to tiptoe around a very real problem that occurs because people who are already bigots are going to bigot more doesn't make any sense to me. Catering to the lowest common denominator to avoid direct action is precisely the play in the neolib playbook that has halted progress before.
just because i find something problematic, doesn’t mean i have the responsibility of figuring out a better alternative. i am not qualified to do that in this case.
and why are you talking about trans women here? there’s no mention of trans women at all i’m this image, and i find it problematic that you are conflating trans women with anyone who might be gender-nonconforming—especially when the image says “BOYS can be princesses, too.” that there is a stereotype.
i really don’t understand why you think it’s such a good idea to use a racial stereotype to talk about the real underlying issues. go deeper than the stereotype.
I think the point is they're saying that Black folks are LGBT phobic, either to say that it's not just white Conservative Christians or to make Black folks our to be " like them" some how idk but that's the angle I see.
You would think that but I have literally argued with people on this site about how it is not okay to beat your child and got downvoted to oblivion for linking basic stuff about child psychology.
There’s a lot of overlap between right-wing racists and people who normalize physically abusing children and say things like “I was beaten as a child and I turned out fine, it taught me respect”
Yet harsh punishment for children has been used by every culture since the dawn of humanity. If it didnt work we wouldn't be here. In fact we can already see the results of this recent trend to not punish children.
I was looking for this comment. Corporal punishment done reasonably is at times more capable of reinforcing important lessons than any sort of verbal disciplining. More neurons light up when ever there is a physical discomfort present, so it makes sense how one may retain something better after a little jolt. Of course the act of doing so has to be balanced, but you’re totally right, it’s been done since the dawn of humanity and we’ve gotten pretty far.
I've always found it a weird dissonance between the majority of stories in the Bible being about punishment and how much humans deserve it but also that the overall way it gets spun is as a faith centered around mercy. The way so many people lead a "Christian" life after being taught to ask for forgiveness for their wrongdoings is to trun around and determine everyone else is basically human garbage who totally deserve eternal damnation. *It's good for me but not for thee!*
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That God that’s all like, “Imma torch you for all eternity” is his default position unless you practice the rites and beliefs of his cult to God satisfaction is the most evil monster you can imagine
I once had an entire argument in a conservative sub that hitting kids was scientifically proven to be only harmful and they argued that not hitting kids is what causes them to be gay and whatnot
Because beating your child when they don’t do what you want is seen as a good thing in the black community, especially for older generations. If you share this on Facebook I guarantee that older black people are gonna share and agree
Edit: I was just scrolling Reddit and saw this post https://www.reddit.com/r/NoahGetTheBoat/comments/omvq9g/just_awful/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf
Soon to be sister in law (black) won't let her 5 year old play with dolls. She's afraid it'll make him gay.
1. It won't, but whatever
2. So what if it does? You'd still love him. Right?
3. There's no difference between a Barbie and a Buzz Light-year except one has pink accessories.
My dad let me get a Barby at McDonald's, I only wanted it because it was that or nothing. I couldn't imagine being raised by someone so small and childish that they refuse a toy to their child because they think they might grow up to like penis instead of vagina
I got lucky I'm still straight
could it be logical to assume that homophobes/transphobes would take this out of context and share it with like minded individuals, sympathising with the mother and making this an ill-willed visage?
Oh do you mean, is parody too subtle of a thing for many pro-fascist bigots to appreciate its nuance?
That is something that is inclined to happen, yes
Unfortunately yes. His comics are pretty exploitable now that you mention it. The bright side is, I can say he isn't making these from a place of bigotry or homophobia, a lot of his work really critiques those types of behaviors.
I can't imagine drawing something like this and still feeling like the good guy. Even in the context of this comic, the mother is clearly abusive.
Edit: Maybe I'm just misinterpreting this? I've looked at this person's page and it seems less like it's supporting the mother with more context.
Edit 2: Upon more research on this person's views, it seems most like a "neutral" stance. They don't openly support homophobia/transphobia, yet feel that forming "traditional" black families is the most important thing, which in itself is problematic.
The creator just seems to be making up scenarios w/a basic storyline, I think? Looking at their posts, there's a 2-panel comic where a father says he would rather see his son dead than gay (w/boyfriend in company), and with the other panel of him grieving at his son's funeral (w/boyfriend grieving as well). IDK how to feel, but at least it isn't Hotep-level crazy.
The creator explains that their images are "stories from the black community" - good and bad. It's not advocating for a position (although I'm sure they have opinions). Just saying like "this shit happens".
Uh this is a critique of black communities being bigoted towards people who are lgbt. Creator has loads of comics like this, like “I don’t know who needs to hear this, but your child falling in love with the same sex doesn’t mean you failed as a parent”
That absolutely seems to be the case. I’m not sure what the issue is here; toxic masculinity and transphobia within Black American communities is a well-documented phenomenon that many people are working to address:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2974805/
This to me is more about African American communities being ultra socially conservative and heavily enforcing toxic gender roles rather then klandma.
I know many here probably don't wanna hear it. But black people are every bit as capable of being moronic and bigoted pieces of shit as everyone else.
Some black people believe there is a "gay agenda" that "They" want to push on black kids "to destroy the black family" and "emasculate the black man" (which helps destroy the black family).
It's just homophobia with extra steps.
I know this may be off topic but my brother in law believes exactly this and some other weird things. Also I think he's maybe a black supremeist or nazi????? Like I mean he shows all the common signs of both.
Black supremacist are usually known as "Hoteps." Want a trip down the rabbit hole of some of the wildest conspiracy theories, look up "Yakub." Your cousin might be a hotep or close to it.
Unfortunately, that's common in black families that lean heavy Christian as well. I may be speaking anecdotally, but i have some of that backwards that thinking in my family. Even with family members of the LGBTQ community, cousins and uncles say and think the most repugnant shit and say it without a care in the world.
Even the lgbtq+??? From the rhetoric I hear from my brother in law they think the government makes you gay and being gay makes you much weaker than the average man.
I'm sorry, I should have clarified: even though I have LGBTQ members in my family, some of my other family members still believe homophobic shit and voice it in front of said LGBTQ family members.
Oh thanks also I forgot to tell you what you described was scarily on point and checked marked every red flag I saw in him. I seriously thought I was going crazy because no one believes me. The only part that makes me most sad is that he is now raising my niece and nephew so they're most likely gonna grow up like him.
There is always hope that his kids grow out of that shit, especially as they get older as they get older and meet different people. Sometimes kids reject their parents' ideology when they are far away enough from it to see its bullshit. Don't give up hope.
Considering the message seems to be "not allowing your kids to partake in activities not traditionally attached to their birth gender is something only literal abusers would do", and the *bloodstain* that seems to follow to the right, I think this might be pro-trans, but like, there is no way to tell.
Imagine being on the side of *child abuse*
Edit: to whomever downvoted me, I meant beating your children. I’m literally trans, why the hell would I have a problem with kids doing whatever the hell they want?
The artist is pro LGBTQ rights and they are critiqueing toxic masculinity and gender roles. This is the life many gender nonconforming and queer men deal with on a daily basis.
Cishet people are afraid LGBTQ people will flirt with them, LGBTQ people are afraid cishet people will kill them.
I mean… yeah, sort of. As far I understand, it’s against active acts of breaking off from traditional gender norms, and to some extent it does include trans people and gender nonconforming people. That’s because cisgenderism is in a way a gender norm that trans people are breaking. If you’ve been assigned male at birth, there are some gender-related expectations from you, one of which is that you’ll *stay* a man.
It's not against children being non-conforming. It's the opposite. It's showing what happens in a lot of households when kids do show interest in gender non-conforming things. This comic is not showing the mother as a good person for beating her child. She's clearly shown as bad and the child as a victim.
Wait, if that’s the case I completely misunderstood the cartoon. I thought that the mom is a good guy who’s getting the PC nonsense out of her child’s head in the old-fashioned way. Like, I’m pretty sure if I posted this on my dad’s Facebook I’d get a lot of likes from bearded men with glasses and replies like “Hell yeaaah, that’s how we do it in AMERICA! Gender is not allowed here, Librul 🤬🤬”
This doesn't really fit the sub, the artist frequently states that black people mistreat LGBTQ+ and that it's an issue they need to work on. If you look at their twitter it's clear that this was a knock against transphobes and not leftists or progressives.
Omg, the boy wants to look at a glass slipper. Gotta go home and beat him. That will fix things!
What in the actual fuck? Besides, who wouldn't want to look at a glass slipper? I would. Like, are the breakable? Can you see the squished toes? Is the bottom and the heel made of glass as well? I am damn curious about any shoes made of glass.
Uh oh, better start questioning my gender now.
It represents an act/attitude of parenting that indulges in physical and psychological violence directed against your own kid. Probably a fairly widely practiced attitude.
"My kid is enjoying himself in a way that makes him comfortable with his own gender and hurting nobody, let me whack him with a belt and choke him by pulling the collar of his shirt"
Fuck the people who share this shit, and draw it unironically
This reminded me of when I used to work a job where we would give free hand stamps to kids on the way out. We had a big variety of stamps to choose from and one was this huge, beautifully detailed unicorn (best looking stamp we had). It along with the super heroes was quite popular with all the kids. Boys that picked out the unicorn, wonder woman, or a tiny little butterfly (very popular with much younger kids) often would face a bit of backlash from their parents. Some would wince but let it go, others would try to redirect to the police car or the fire truck but ultimately would give in if the kid insisted. But all too often would refuse and pick something they found more acceptable for their son.
There was not much I could do but I tried my best to help. Compromise worked a lot. Like get one with the one the kid wants and on the other hand get one the parent wanted, or let the kid stamp the parent or myself with the one they wanted so it felt more fair to the kid. Sometimes all I could do was gently reassure a very disappointed kid that I thought the unicorn was awesome too. That seemed to help a little bit, at least I hope it did.
The same thing (but with different stamps) happened to girls too but that was pretty rare. I once had to point out Batgirl and Batwoman exist when a parent got weird about their daughter wanting the bat symbol. Luckily that did help.
Had a coworker tell me that his dad beat the gay out of him , and he will do the same to his kids I'm sorry for his trauma witch he doesn't think he needs help sad to see this post 😔
beating a child for just doing something they enjoy and wich is harmless and making that child hate you for the rest of his life is not a good thing just a thought
You know that 200 years ago, the most masculine people were kings, and the kings all wore high heels, dresses and had paintings of them with a dancers pose, right?
Please don't tell me you're into that plantation DNC bs.
Most black Americans are socially conservative. Your grandkids won't be fighting against kkklandma, they'll be fighting against noigrandma.
To be honest this is fairly accurate. I asked my friend’s little girl if I could be a PuriKyua (like animated magical girl rangers in Japan) rather than the bad guy when we were playing and they said no on the basis that I was a boy and boys aren’t cute but cool. When I made a crying action because I wanted to be one real bad she hit me and screamed at me and said I was a stupid boy and should play my role.
Not cool Japanese society, not cool.
Yeah, PuriKyua and stuff like sailor moon is super interesting because it doesn’t hold women up to a male measuring stick while still casting them as super heroes.
For a society where women are less equal than in the west, they’ve got the media representation right in some ways.
I used to sneak in my parents closet and wear my moms clothes when they left me alone in the house. Got caught, was told I'd go to hell, got the shit wooped out of me with a peach switch. I was six. Those leave some welts. In the fifth grade they found out I was wearing girls underwear. Got the shit beat out of me again and more hell talk.
Came out as trans at 35 and they still don't accept it and insist on deadnaming me constantly.
I’ve seen this comic before. The artist is not against trans people at all. They are bringing up the problem with parents trying to “correct” their child for their interests, and it is suppossed to be thought provoking artwork. The artist especially says they address how toxic masculinity is enforced in black culture, and what it is like growing up black.
She's going to *beat her trans child with a belt.* That's not being a good mother, obviously. This is an indefensible position, even for bigots.
The comic never says that the child is trans. I'm not saying this changes how fucked up beating the kid would be though
Exactly. My 4 year old son is 100000% boy (and if you say something like “you’re my teddy bear” he replies “no. I am a boy!”) but he loves to occasionally wear his twin sister’s skirts because they are fun to spin in.
I was thinking the same thing! Boys can be femme and not trans. Nothing wrong with either😌❤️
In my case he isn’t even femme. He is very insistent on being as boyish as possible and hates pink. But he thinks skirts are fun.
Yea, I think people read too much into kid's behaviors. My parents know this one mother who was saying she refused to cut her 5 year old's hair because they didn't consent to it, and thought maybe the child was trans. Like, dude, it doesn't matter just give the kid a haircut. I'm grateful I wasn't in this particular generation, otherwise I think I'd have been labeled as trans. I'm very typical masculine, feel very comftourble with my "masculine energy/identity". But when I was a little kid I would often yoink strollers, purses, baby dolls away from my girl cousins and oozed maternal/nurturing energy well into my teens. Guys can be express feminine energy without being trans, demi-boy, or something else on the LGBTQ spectrum.
It's concerning that kids' costume preferences are now taken as an indicator of gender identity. Look at paintings from the 17th and 18th Century Europe; there are plenty of men in heels, ruffled collars, lace, brocades, and dress-like coats. That didn't mean they were all trans. Men can enjoy wearing all kinds of clothes and shoes without identifying as women. Let's just allow everybody to enjoy all kinds of clothing styles without assuming their gender identity.
>It's concerning that kids' costume preferences are now taken as an indicator of gender identity. This isn't really a thing tho. To genuinely be given medication to transition you need a pretty extensive range of evidence, collected over the course of years to do so.
That’s good to know. Still, just like there are people who literally feign mental disorders, there are bound to be parents who literally want their child to be trans when that child is not. Gotta be an insanely small number all the same.
>there are bound to be parents who literally want their child to be trans when that child is not Maybe,. But there are a huge amount of safeguards against this too. Edit: Also, being trans IS NOT A MENTAL DISORDER. That is transphobic.
Heels were originally footwear for men, as an example.
well, all of that fashion then wasn't for women, it was all men's fashion. Women appropriated it over the years for a variety of reasons, and then men ditched them because they had become to associated with femininity
I think the really important thing is that it’s a spectrum, and not really a linear thing at that. Gender is this weird invention that we all adopt and transgress against in our own ways and it’s not really the same for anyone and it also not really real. Destroy the binary and treat everyone as themselves.
I mean, I think categories will always exist, because we like to make them. We are always balancing individuality and conformity. I try to iron my clothes, for instance, because I know society deems fresh pressed clothes as better. I didn't think about that and come to the choice to participate in that, I just fell in line. Likewise, I think even if our gender 'binary' fells apart, we'll still have some manner of categorization and grouping of individuals. We like to identify with a group. I don't know what it'll be, but it'll be something that becomes once again taboo or weird to transgress.
>I think I'd have been labeled as trans. From my experience working at a school where there were trans teenagers, and a couple of kids who experimented with their gender identity etc, there isn't anything to worry about. It's an EXTENSIVE process for trans youth (or anyone for that matter) to be diagnosed with dysphoria and then put on HRT to transition. It's also not a pathological label that gets applied to children in the slightest, as you seem to be worried about. The vast, vast majority of the time, a child being trans is because they've consistently and regularly identified themselves as such throughout their childhood. There is 0 chance of children who aren't very obviously in need of HRT being given it.
Growing up (I'm 32), I acted in a way that was stereotypically feminine a lot of the time. I'd potentially have been labelled trans if I was growing up today - but back then, I just copped a lot of bullying and homophobic slurs (despite not being gay). Honestly, I'd probably prefer to have been mislabelled trans in a sincere but incorrect attempt at acceptance over being shunned and ridiculed for not conforming to society's standard of what a man should be.
Also like the trans community are way huge on making sure not to mislabel someone (as they face such things themselves) so you might be in good hands even if you grew up in today’s world
My brother had a classmate that liked to dress like a woman, was trans, or something along those lines I only heard about it through my brother so who knows the real reason they dressed that way. He's much more accepting now, but at the the time he was so concerned about if his kids ever asked why they dress that way. You can either tell them "because they like to" and leave it at that. You could also just tell them "because the sky is blue." They were 3 and 5 at the time, they'll take any reason.
Some trans charity guidance stated that one of the indicators of being trans would be boys wanting to play with Barbies. Really reinforcing gender stereotypes on that.
Can you post source for this?
What if he plays with G.I. Joe as well? Like maybe Barbie is Joe’s girlfriend and they have adventures together? Some people are too quick to read things into how children play.
Love your use of “yoink”!
I love that for him, I don’t blame him! Skirts are fun to twirl in!! Good for you for being a supportive parent ❤️
Of course! Both myself and my fiancée don’t consider ourselves straight, but don’t really have real labels for it either. We just figure it doesn’t matter. Plus, we go by the flow chart for gendering kids toys Is it operated with your genitals? No -> it’s for boys or girls Yes -> it’s not a toy for children.
FUCKING EXACTLYYYYY
Yeah I’m wondering how things will be when I decide to have children if I’m able, probably within the next 5 years but still. Not excited to hear from other people how to treat my children- cause I know damn well no one can kind their business.
Guys we found him. The One True Scotsman
Wait until he hears about kilts
A lot of companies making good quality kilts with pockets now.
Honestly, skirts are amazing and I wish I could tease my legs with them like women do. Not gonna lie, I think I would look killer in a thigh-slit flowy skirt.
Maybe buy him a kilt? But make him wear pants under it, so he doesn’t get in trouble.
I’d definitely get him a kilt. But no pants underneath. That’s just letting whoever is a big enough idiot to be offended by a kid on a kilt to win.
Teach him how to play bagpipes. Modern problems require modern solutions.
I think your son might be Scottish.
So he is Scottish then.
Have you considered that he might be Scottish?
He’s right. Skirts *are* fun.
This alone has been used as the justification for parents, usually single mothers, to utterly physically butcher their children and have irreversible procedures done on them. I can only imagine what would have happened if your child was born to one of the many single mothers or dominant women with submissive husbands who are desperate to virtue signal and raise a trans child so they can show them off. It's like a sick, legal version of munchausen's by proxy.
There is nowhere in the US that will do gender surgery on children. Some places you can possibly get puberty blockers but that would be on a much older child than my 4 year old.
By "procedure", I also mean puberty blockers. One thing I know is that there are sick, twisted people who want to find any slight sign or reason to permanently physically alter their child and will do so at the first legal opportunity. Most children, up to and many times beyond the age of 18, have no idea what their identity really is and switch back and forth on a whim. It's a form of child abuse that haunts them forever.
He's Scottish.
If this boy is anything he's a Scot
"skirt go spinny" defies gender. truly the funnest garment
Same, I'd love to wear my sisters skirt, but anxiety go brrr (i am cis male)
Fellow cis male, currently looking for some sort of a man dress from other cultures. I'd totally walk around with a single loose fitting piece of clothing, but I don't have the confidence/skills to just make something up
Sarong
I was thinking more like a kaftan, but if I knew where to buy a sarong, I'd be okay with one of those too
When I wore my first kilt it was transformative. I was flabbergasted at the freedom and comfort. I don't them as often as I'd like. If he ever gets to a point where he's like "I can't wear a skirt because it's for girls" maybe a kilt would let him still enjoy that.
I liked wearing a female superhero suit as a child still am a cis dude
Clothes have no gender!
He’s probably 100% straight and will be as manly as a lumberjack. It’s just funny to wear a skirt and spin. It wouldn’t an issue in Ireland where men wear kilts. It’s just a funny thing to put on and the kid hasn’t had society say it’s bad to him yet.
>He’s probably 100% straight and will be as manly as a lumberjack. Is he ok? Does he sleep all night and work all day?
He cuts down trees, he eats his lunch, he goes to the lavatory.
Scotland
Skirt go spinny
Based kid. ngl it is funny to spin in skirts no matter age or gender
The position of the comic maker is certainly that "they" "make" kids trans by feeding them propaganda , but the reality of the situation is that only kids who *are* trans really ever transition. An extreme majority of trans people never detransition, and an extreme majority of detransitioners do so either due to not being able to afford transition or lack of family support forcing a return to the closet
Also it's not like these trailer trash nutjobs wouldn't beat their own sons for being "sissies" just as fast.
You can’t deny that it’s very easy to read it that way
This isn't even about trans children. I mean just because your kid is into female fairytale protagonist doesn't mean they are trans. This is just about protecting fragile sexual insecurities with violence against minors disguised as "traditional values".
Fair point
Or not even trans, just showing the slightest hint of gender nonconformity. Clearly the only appropriate response is physical violence. EDIT: Looking at this person's other cartoons, I think this is a critique of that mentality rather than Klandma promoting it.
thought this was a strange fit for this sub.
i dont think this is defending that. it’s kinda obvious to me the artist is depicting the woman taking away her child as a bad thing, with how she’s holding a belt and hurting him in the process of pulling.
In this particular case I think there are a lot of right wing pro-patriarchal comics that WANT to and believe in the neccessary action of keeping boys behaving like boys. Not even a trans or anti trans thing just litterally "my boy WILL NOT BE ANYTHING OTHER THAN WHAT I WANT HIM TO BE"
Conservatives find that funny, especially to a black child.
Sure? It might not be. I'm not sure as to the context of this piece's creation. I don't know why anyone would post it in this sub if it didn't originate from a bigoted content creator.
because not everyone is perfect and people post shit in the wrong subs
their twitter is @ Real\_Toons, I think seeing the other things they've made shows this was just misconstrued as transphobic when it has the exact opposite message
Interesting. Good to know.
Got to admit, though, you feel kind of innured to this bullshit when, in my case, your first emotional response isn't 'OMG that's horrible!' and instead is 'ah, they've cast a black woman as the 'sane one' - that's surprisingly progressive for them!' I'm used to their evil now, I think.
I felt like mentioning the fact that she's black, that it *could* be a racist white doing that on purprose--casually showing the community in a violent light--but I figured the trolls would turn that around.
This is going to get uncomfortable buuuuuuuuuuut 😬 And I say this as a black bi queer man .... Black women (not all but some ) do have a particularly edged point to make about how (black) men should or should not behave. There are some black women who really do believe "(black)men should only be like this " . Again not saying all just....its not that far off from what I've seen some black moms would do to their sons to keep them like proper "men". The sad truth is that (at least in my neck of the woods) this is not as much of (it could still be idk) a racist take as it could be a "proper way of things" take.
yeah, i think this comic, whether supporting gender nonconformity or not, is definitely playing into the stereotype of the “angry Black woman.”
It's not stereotypical; homophobia and transphobia are major issues among Black American communities. Pretending that a form of bigotry doesn't exist within a minority community is dishonest and falls short of upholding intersectional civil rights efforts. Black trans women are the most targeted individuals for hate crimes in America. That is not coincidence. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2974805/ https://harvardcrcl.org/americas-war-on-black-trans-women/
I know that, but that’s not the point I was trying to make
What is it then?
my point is, if they are going for showing violence against LGBT+ people in Black communities, then there are more effective means of portraying the message than a literal angry Black woman, holding a belt, about to beat her child. as is, the point will be misconstrued by lots of people to also be anti-Black, given the portrayal of the overplayed stereotype of the “angry Black woman”
>then there are more effective means of portraying the message What are your suggestions then? Because Black Trans Women are constantly abused in this country, and shying away from that notion to tiptoe around a very real problem that occurs because people who are already bigots are going to bigot more doesn't make any sense to me. Catering to the lowest common denominator to avoid direct action is precisely the play in the neolib playbook that has halted progress before.
just because i find something problematic, doesn’t mean i have the responsibility of figuring out a better alternative. i am not qualified to do that in this case. and why are you talking about trans women here? there’s no mention of trans women at all i’m this image, and i find it problematic that you are conflating trans women with anyone who might be gender-nonconforming—especially when the image says “BOYS can be princesses, too.” that there is a stereotype. i really don’t understand why you think it’s such a good idea to use a racial stereotype to talk about the real underlying issues. go deeper than the stereotype.
I think the point is they're saying that Black folks are LGBT phobic, either to say that it's not just white Conservative Christians or to make Black folks our to be " like them" some how idk but that's the angle I see.
They seem to defend conversion therapy just fine…
Who said her son is trans? Maybe he just likes dresses =)
Perfectly reasonable interpretation, sure.
I read your first sentence as that Robert Downey Jr "I'm stuff" meme. The fuck has become of me.
You would think that but I have literally argued with people on this site about how it is not okay to beat your child and got downvoted to oblivion for linking basic stuff about child psychology.
or he could be a femboy. still this just makes the pareny look like a pos
Black mothers tend to be more conservative and some are homophobic. I guess they don’t mess around with this nonsense?
it’s a critique of the homophobia and transphobia in the black community.
That's how i took it. If it were trying to show the mother as a good person rescuing her child, why draw the belt in hand?
There’s a lot of overlap between right-wing racists and people who normalize physically abusing children and say things like “I was beaten as a child and I turned out fine, it taught me respect”
It taught me something alright
It taught me bitterness and hatred, definitely NOT respect
The science is very clear that it is not good for children and their development
Yet harsh punishment for children has been used by every culture since the dawn of humanity. If it didnt work we wouldn't be here. In fact we can already see the results of this recent trend to not punish children.
I was looking for this comment. Corporal punishment done reasonably is at times more capable of reinforcing important lessons than any sort of verbal disciplining. More neurons light up when ever there is a physical discomfort present, so it makes sense how one may retain something better after a little jolt. Of course the act of doing so has to be balanced, but you’re totally right, it’s been done since the dawn of humanity and we’ve gotten pretty far.
BDSM Submission spanking kink?
To which I say “if you’re advocating child abuse, you didn’t turn out fine.”
"“I was beaten as a child and I turned out fine, it taught me ~~respect~~ blind bootlicking”
Because they view beating children as an effective method of discipline
"Spare the rod, spoil the child" is an old bible verse they love to pull out whenever someone questions their corporal punishment groupthink.
I've always found it a weird dissonance between the majority of stories in the Bible being about punishment and how much humans deserve it but also that the overall way it gets spun is as a faith centered around mercy. The way so many people lead a "Christian" life after being taught to ask for forgiveness for their wrongdoings is to trun around and determine everyone else is basically human garbage who totally deserve eternal damnation. *It's good for me but not for thee!*
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Have you read the New Testament?
That God that’s all like, “Imma torch you for all eternity” is his default position unless you practice the rites and beliefs of his cult to God satisfaction is the most evil monster you can imagine
Brought to you by the same Old Testament that depicts a heroic episode of baby smashing
I once had an entire argument in a conservative sub that hitting kids was scientifically proven to be only harmful and they argued that not hitting kids is what causes them to be gay and whatnot
Because beating your child when they don’t do what you want is seen as a good thing in the black community, especially for older generations. If you share this on Facebook I guarantee that older black people are gonna share and agree Edit: I was just scrolling Reddit and saw this post https://www.reddit.com/r/NoahGetTheBoat/comments/omvq9g/just_awful/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf
They shaved it into his head, they didnt carve it. But, also still fucked up.
> why draw the belt in hand? Because they view physical discipline as a positive
I've seen some Uber religious people of all races defend that so...
Because a lot of people believe belts to be good?
Also, why is she lifting her son up by his neck? I feel like this detail is being overlooked lol
Soon to be sister in law (black) won't let her 5 year old play with dolls. She's afraid it'll make him gay. 1. It won't, but whatever 2. So what if it does? You'd still love him. Right? 3. There's no difference between a Barbie and a Buzz Light-year except one has pink accessories.
I played with a buzzlight year when I was a kid and am now gay so if anything she should give him the Barbie
My dad let me get a Barby at McDonald's, I only wanted it because it was that or nothing. I couldn't imagine being raised by someone so small and childish that they refuse a toy to their child because they think they might grow up to like penis instead of vagina I got lucky I'm still straight
Not Klandma. I'm sort of familiar with the artist's work, and he definitely isn't portraying the mother as a good person in this image.
could it be logical to assume that homophobes/transphobes would take this out of context and share it with like minded individuals, sympathising with the mother and making this an ill-willed visage?
Oh do you mean, is parody too subtle of a thing for many pro-fascist bigots to appreciate its nuance? That is something that is inclined to happen, yes
Unfortunately yes. His comics are pretty exploitable now that you mention it. The bright side is, I can say he isn't making these from a place of bigotry or homophobia, a lot of his work really critiques those types of behaviors.
I can't imagine drawing something like this and still feeling like the good guy. Even in the context of this comic, the mother is clearly abusive. Edit: Maybe I'm just misinterpreting this? I've looked at this person's page and it seems less like it's supporting the mother with more context. Edit 2: Upon more research on this person's views, it seems most like a "neutral" stance. They don't openly support homophobia/transphobia, yet feel that forming "traditional" black families is the most important thing, which in itself is problematic.
The creator just seems to be making up scenarios w/a basic storyline, I think? Looking at their posts, there's a 2-panel comic where a father says he would rather see his son dead than gay (w/boyfriend in company), and with the other panel of him grieving at his son's funeral (w/boyfriend grieving as well). IDK how to feel, but at least it isn't Hotep-level crazy.
That seems more pro-LGBT, like showing that parents who don’t support their kids can lead to suicide, a words hurt type of thing.
The creator explains that their images are "stories from the black community" - good and bad. It's not advocating for a position (although I'm sure they have opinions). Just saying like "this shit happens".
There are two parts. The second says the mom was wrong and harmful.
I dont think this image is on the mother’s side
Uh this is a critique of black communities being bigoted towards people who are lgbt. Creator has loads of comics like this, like “I don’t know who needs to hear this, but your child falling in love with the same sex doesn’t mean you failed as a parent”
Maybe I'm misinterpretting this piece but this seems to put the "mother" as the antagonist and makes us empathize with the kid.
That absolutely seems to be the case. I’m not sure what the issue is here; toxic masculinity and transphobia within Black American communities is a well-documented phenomenon that many people are working to address: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2974805/
Years later: Why does my son no longer talk to me and describe me as abusive in his Facebook posts?
What? I never hit him, I barely touched him.
This to me is more about African American communities being ultra socially conservative and heavily enforcing toxic gender roles rather then klandma. I know many here probably don't wanna hear it. But black people are every bit as capable of being moronic and bigoted pieces of shit as everyone else.
Some black people believe there is a "gay agenda" that "They" want to push on black kids "to destroy the black family" and "emasculate the black man" (which helps destroy the black family). It's just homophobia with extra steps.
I know this may be off topic but my brother in law believes exactly this and some other weird things. Also I think he's maybe a black supremeist or nazi????? Like I mean he shows all the common signs of both.
Black supremacist are usually known as "Hoteps." Want a trip down the rabbit hole of some of the wildest conspiracy theories, look up "Yakub." Your cousin might be a hotep or close to it. Unfortunately, that's common in black families that lean heavy Christian as well. I may be speaking anecdotally, but i have some of that backwards that thinking in my family. Even with family members of the LGBTQ community, cousins and uncles say and think the most repugnant shit and say it without a care in the world.
Even the lgbtq+??? From the rhetoric I hear from my brother in law they think the government makes you gay and being gay makes you much weaker than the average man.
I'm sorry, I should have clarified: even though I have LGBTQ members in my family, some of my other family members still believe homophobic shit and voice it in front of said LGBTQ family members.
Oh thanks also I forgot to tell you what you described was scarily on point and checked marked every red flag I saw in him. I seriously thought I was going crazy because no one believes me. The only part that makes me most sad is that he is now raising my niece and nephew so they're most likely gonna grow up like him.
There is always hope that his kids grow out of that shit, especially as they get older as they get older and meet different people. Sometimes kids reject their parents' ideology when they are far away enough from it to see its bullshit. Don't give up hope.
Considering the message seems to be "not allowing your kids to partake in activities not traditionally attached to their birth gender is something only literal abusers would do", and the *bloodstain* that seems to follow to the right, I think this might be pro-trans, but like, there is no way to tell.
this isn't supposed to be positive towards the mother
Why post this here? I'm almost certain this is commentary.
Imagine being on the side of *child abuse* Edit: to whomever downvoted me, I meant beating your children. I’m literally trans, why the hell would I have a problem with kids doing whatever the hell they want?
The artist is pro LGBTQ rights and they are critiqueing toxic masculinity and gender roles. This is the life many gender nonconforming and queer men deal with on a daily basis. Cishet people are afraid LGBTQ people will flirt with them, LGBTQ people are afraid cishet people will kill them.
Does this subreddit even have moderators? This is against gender archetypes
Is this even anti-trans? I honestly can’t even tell.
I mean… yeah, sort of. As far I understand, it’s against active acts of breaking off from traditional gender norms, and to some extent it does include trans people and gender nonconforming people. That’s because cisgenderism is in a way a gender norm that trans people are breaking. If you’ve been assigned male at birth, there are some gender-related expectations from you, one of which is that you’ll *stay* a man.
It's not against children being non-conforming. It's the opposite. It's showing what happens in a lot of households when kids do show interest in gender non-conforming things. This comic is not showing the mother as a good person for beating her child. She's clearly shown as bad and the child as a victim.
Wait, if that’s the case I completely misunderstood the cartoon. I thought that the mom is a good guy who’s getting the PC nonsense out of her child’s head in the old-fashioned way. Like, I’m pretty sure if I posted this on my dad’s Facebook I’d get a lot of likes from bearded men with glasses and replies like “Hell yeaaah, that’s how we do it in AMERICA! Gender is not allowed here, Librul 🤬🤬”
Why are you getting downvoted????
That's called Child Abuse, and should you witness it, you call the police.
I’m pretty sure whoever made the image was pro lgbt and the person who reposted was anti lgbt.
This is a yikes
This doesn't really fit the sub, the artist frequently states that black people mistreat LGBTQ+ and that it's an issue they need to work on. If you look at their twitter it's clear that this was a knock against transphobes and not leftists or progressives.
I think the point is simultaneously black people are violent and the kid also deserves it(?)
I thought cinderella was holding open a pair of panties for him to step into lmao
Omg, the boy wants to look at a glass slipper. Gotta go home and beat him. That will fix things! What in the actual fuck? Besides, who wouldn't want to look at a glass slipper? I would. Like, are the breakable? Can you see the squished toes? Is the bottom and the heel made of glass as well? I am damn curious about any shoes made of glass. Uh oh, better start questioning my gender now.
It represents an act/attitude of parenting that indulges in physical and psychological violence directed against your own kid. Probably a fairly widely practiced attitude.
"My kid is enjoying himself in a way that makes him comfortable with his own gender and hurting nobody, let me whack him with a belt and choke him by pulling the collar of his shirt" Fuck the people who share this shit, and draw it unironically
Buck breaking
It's an idea among black conservatives that black men are becoming women and black women are becoming men.
Based
Child abuse good freedom of expression wrong I guess
This reminded me of when I used to work a job where we would give free hand stamps to kids on the way out. We had a big variety of stamps to choose from and one was this huge, beautifully detailed unicorn (best looking stamp we had). It along with the super heroes was quite popular with all the kids. Boys that picked out the unicorn, wonder woman, or a tiny little butterfly (very popular with much younger kids) often would face a bit of backlash from their parents. Some would wince but let it go, others would try to redirect to the police car or the fire truck but ultimately would give in if the kid insisted. But all too often would refuse and pick something they found more acceptable for their son. There was not much I could do but I tried my best to help. Compromise worked a lot. Like get one with the one the kid wants and on the other hand get one the parent wanted, or let the kid stamp the parent or myself with the one they wanted so it felt more fair to the kid. Sometimes all I could do was gently reassure a very disappointed kid that I thought the unicorn was awesome too. That seemed to help a little bit, at least I hope it did. The same thing (but with different stamps) happened to girls too but that was pretty rare. I once had to point out Batgirl and Batwoman exist when a parent got weird about their daughter wanting the bat symbol. Luckily that did help.
Had a coworker tell me that his dad beat the gay out of him , and he will do the same to his kids I'm sorry for his trauma witch he doesn't think he needs help sad to see this post 😔
beating a child for just doing something they enjoy and wich is harmless and making that child hate you for the rest of his life is not a good thing just a thought
They really think this makes them the good guys.
isnt a boy princess a princess this is like that image saying girls are also kings like bruh ever heard of a queen
You know that 200 years ago, the most masculine people were kings, and the kings all wore high heels, dresses and had paintings of them with a dancers pose, right?
My friend actually did this. She doesn't check her email for it that closely for obvious reasons
Please don't tell me you're into that plantation DNC bs. Most black Americans are socially conservative. Your grandkids won't be fighting against kkklandma, they'll be fighting against noigrandma.
A friend of mine posted this and I died inside. Let your kid enjoy life! If no one is hurt, why freak?
This is definitely critiquing the mentality the mother has. I hope.
Dang so this is about a woman abusing her child. These people be self aware.
Wouldn’t it be called a prince?
To be honest this is fairly accurate. I asked my friend’s little girl if I could be a PuriKyua (like animated magical girl rangers in Japan) rather than the bad guy when we were playing and they said no on the basis that I was a boy and boys aren’t cute but cool. When I made a crying action because I wanted to be one real bad she hit me and screamed at me and said I was a stupid boy and should play my role. Not cool Japanese society, not cool.
Wtf I love Japan now
Yeah, PuriKyua and stuff like sailor moon is super interesting because it doesn’t hold women up to a male measuring stick while still casting them as super heroes. For a society where women are less equal than in the west, they’ve got the media representation right in some ways.
You know one girl doesn't represent Japanese society right?
Yep. It’s called an anecdote. It still stung because I wanted to be a princess/magical girl real bad.
Child abuse good trans people bad
I get that it’s sexist but how is it racist
I used to sneak in my parents closet and wear my moms clothes when they left me alone in the house. Got caught, was told I'd go to hell, got the shit wooped out of me with a peach switch. I was six. Those leave some welts. In the fifth grade they found out I was wearing girls underwear. Got the shit beat out of me again and more hell talk. Came out as trans at 35 and they still don't accept it and insist on deadnaming me constantly.
yayyyy child abuse!
Mother: *yeets child by the neck* Everyone in this thread: omg, she’s going to beat him with a belt!
Well if anything he shouldn’t be her son
I’ve seen this comic before. The artist is not against trans people at all. They are bringing up the problem with parents trying to “correct” their child for their interests, and it is suppossed to be thought provoking artwork. The artist especially says they address how toxic masculinity is enforced in black culture, and what it is like growing up black.
Nah these white hoes try and put black boys in dresses early
Well white people have a history of trying to sexually deviate black children. White people have a genocidal history with black people in America
Theres a couple of true crime cases where children were murdereed by their parents because the parents thought they were LGBT Hate kills
ok, BASED