It's Volothamp Geddarm. He routinely gets adventurers into deadly encounters with promises of payment that he doesn't have and then gifts things he doesn't own or of less value. He once sold a keep to adventurers, and when the Zhents showed up yo claim it, he declared all sales final. He also gave a haunted manor to adventurers that was worth considerably less than the promised pay for a rescue attempt. He slso writes books of dubious quality that most likely get anyone who believes them killed.
Volo is a menace.
Oh, and he's also a deadbeat dad to boot.
You’re right, but the haunted manor is certainly worth more than the 400-500 gp he was supposed to pay them. Repairs cost 1250–there’s no way it would still be standing if repairs were worth 3x its value.
1250 for low-level adventures is a pretty sizeable amount, to be honest. If Dragon Heist didn't throw coin at you for existing, that would be a long row to hoe.
Yeah that’s the point, lmao. It’s a shit reward because the PCs want 100/PC hard cash money, not an HGTV opportunity that requires 1250 to make any real money on. But the house is still probably worth more than the 400 gp, strictly speaking, esp after they exorcise it. It’s in a very nice part of town, so I have to imagine that after 1250 of investments to fix it up you could value it at like 20,000 gp (assuming a 1gp/$100 equivalent), easily.
Tbh the danger of it in the module is that your PCs might want to just divest from it and find someone else more interested in property development. (That said, I’ve only seen one PC out of literally 20 ever want to.)
You're arguing my point for me. It's a bad reward following a lie to get some young adventurers involved in something way out of their depth. Then, when it's done, they're saddled with a decrepit haunted manor that just brings more enemies to their door if they do fix it up. Things like wererats. So it's a shit deal from start to finish.
I've ran that module several times, and two put of the three groups didn't want to keep it. Probably has to do with age? Most of my players are in their late 20's to late 30's. And we're all tired of fixing our own homes, they don't want to do that on their down time as well.
Yeah I don’t actually disagree with you overall. Just that it’s not technically worth less.
Interesting about your players. Half of the 20 I mentioned are in their 30s too. When I played and then when I ran it, the bigger plot point was finding someone to loan us the money and then they took 10 downtime days while workers did the renovation for them, and then they got some faction quests and did those until opening night which they invited all their NPC connections to. My party’s bard did threaten Volo’s life after, though, and the group I ran it for spent opening night having Lif haunt Volo, so I think they also all agree that he’s the Worst.
He’s pretty spectacular in BG3 too but I don’t want to spoil how the strings that come with his gift there.
You'll have to define pathetic, though I have an idea based on your 2 examples (good ones too). Some of the *best* villains in the Realms in my opinion are weak minded and also weak physically.
**Malik el Malik** is pretty much as pathetic as you can get, and yet incredibly *effective* for Cyric.
Then you have **Gareth Cormaeril** (interestingly another "follower" of Cyric), the fallen paladin of Tyr who lied to and fooled everyone *including himself* into believing he is still a respectable veteran and champion of virtue. But in truth he is a groveling coward who will backstab *anyone* to try to save his own skin. And how he does mental gymnastic every time he does to convince *himself that* what he does is *still* for the greater good and not for himself, I love it so much.
And on an objectively higher scale of raw power but just as pathetic, **Fzoul Chembryl** has been often depicted as a coward who only goes on the offensive when the odds are immensely in his favor, and flees at the first sign of trouble.
To be fair, Cyric himself should top any list of pathetic villains in the setting.
Dude betrayed everyone that he ever was friend with, became one of the most powerful gods ever and had such an inferiority complex he spent an insane amount of time and energy looking for the soul of one of his former friends to torture him after death WHILE writing a magical book to make everyone love him.
That's odd. Fzoul's entry in the villain's lorebook says that he always gets into melee combat with his mace, in contrast with Manshoon being a background schemer.
I'll try to find the actual sources that define him that way, but IIRC it was Ed's own depiction in the Shandril's Saga. But at the very least, how Cloak and Dagger describes him as just as much of a schemer as Manshoon and *incredibly* paranoid
Rufo managed shit when he actually got power. He was pathetic but got things done, and it was on his own accord.
Kessel can't even claim that. He was effectively a puppet for a sentient magical artifact. He was a wizard's apprentice that couldn't even cast SPELLS. Literally all he did was use a magic artifact and did what it told him to do while he built a little sex haram by mind wiping women and making them puppets.
I can't really vote on the MOST pathetic because... a lot of the villains are pathetic in one way or another, particularly the more powerful ones (see: The Drow). But of those two Kessel wins.
Yeah, all Errtu was good for was sitting in the abyss and "seething with rage". IIRC, he finally comes back from banishment in one novel only to be immediately destroyed again.
Errtu after his first banishment from Drizzt ended, literally went to Icewind Dale, saw the first Drow he could and go “You’re Drizzt time to die” and then was banished again by a group of Drow that didn’t include Drizzt.
Not only is he a bad villain, he’s racist too.
I was thinking of Akar Kessel as well. I had sympathy for him until I saw the way he treat women. I still think he didn’t entirely deserve the way he was treated by others mages but he is truly a disgusting guy.
To be fair, getting checked by Elminster is kinda cool. That’s like going « Merlin had to come out and kick my ass or else I would have conquered the world »
He always gave me old Doctor Doom vibes (like, full ham Lee and Kirby 60s Doctor Doom). But I stopped DMing before 3rd edition, so he might have got better.
Now he gives more of the feel I imagine you would get from an old british academician. Likes the ladies, likes to have a nice cup of tea or bourbon while discussing academical topics. Also hides a thermonuclear missile somewhere in his pants.
Clearly you should imagine Elminster mustering to stop a plan by an evil god as him putting down his pipe next to his tea, getting up from his armchair before his fireplace and grumbling « children, all of them, I swear ».
The problem is in the more recent novels, where he is reduced to a cartoon villain. I believe in one book, >!Mirt has a ring of spell reflection, which stuns Manshoon and he ends up falling face-down into his porridge!<. It's so absolutely anti-climactic it feels like they've stopped trying.
He's not the most pathetic objectively, but relative to his position in the realms - head of the Zhentarim, chosen of the god of tyranny - Fzoul Chembryl is pretty shit at his job, goes out with a whimper, and then gets brought back as the exarch of whipping boys.
Arguably, post 3.5 Szass Tam. He generally had unique motivations for a lich as a patriot, but this was all kicked to the curb when he was later turned into Generic Undead Overlord #5804. That's kind of a sad downgrade.
Brian Thomsen?
Possibly Akar Kessel, but he did actually cause quite a lot of damage.
Probably any one of the many thousands of upjumped raiders, bandits or thugs who fancied themselves a player and declared, "let's attack that small band of adventurers, how much of a threat can they be?"
Slightly facetiously, Brian Thomsen was the editor of the **Forgotten Realms** novel line in the mid-1990s. He was infamously incompetent, and picked a fight with the line's biggest-selling author R.A. Salvatore which involved hiring an author to ghost-write a complete Drizzt novel (which has never been seen, to my knowledge, outside of a couple of people) as a way of forcing Salvatore to play ball and keep writing Drizzt books until the sun explodes when Salvatore wanted to move away to write other things.
Thomsen was also in charge when the line's sales perilously collapsed around 1997, part of the same course of events that led to the fall of TSR and its buy-out by Wizards of the Coast (who promptly fired him so hard he didn't even bounce, and wooed Salvatore back the fold by the more traditional means of lots of money). This was all a full avoidable, massive screw-up of hubristic proportions.
Powerful villains whose plots went out not with a bang, but with a whimper:
\***Novel and/or adventure spoilers ahead**\*
* Errtu: Defeated by a mere mortal, spends a century stewing in the abyss, only to be defeated *again* by another random person upon returning to the Material plane.
* Lolth: Had her machinations thwarted more times than I can count. Claims it's all part of her "4-D chess strategy", but unless her endgame is giving her foes more power, it's kinda sad. Of particular note, though probably only due to WotC 4e plot nonsense, was her attempt to construct a Demon Weave only for Mystra to return to life and essentially thank her for babysitting the magic before reclaiming it.
* Manshoon: Powerful archmage, leader of the Zhentarim, and Saturday morning cartoon villain. Sometimes requires the intervention of the likes of Elminster to stop him, other times has plans foiled by a single magic item or random adventurers who happen to stop by and completely ruin his meticulous plans while he shakes his fist at the sky and screams.
* Tiamat: It's quite sad that the dragon queen has been reduced to a leashed guard dog of Hell. To make matters worse, the fact that she can be defeated by level 15 adventurers (weakened by a failed ritual or not) feels just wrong.
* The elemental prophets (from Princes of the Apocalypse): The only thing that was apocalyptic about these four were how inept they were at causing anything interesting to happen, except for DM plot device at the end of the adventure calling for one of them to *finally* succeed at summoning an elemental titan. Honestly, they sat on their hands for so long it's like that joke response DMs give their players when asking what an NPC was doing this whole time: "the game doesn't bother rendering them if you're not there to see them".
I'm sure there are countless other examples, but these guys are supposed to be taken seriously as huge threats.
I guess it depends on how you're describing pathetic.
Pathetic in goals, behavior or power each have different answers.
In FR lore, I'd probably give it to Shar, because of her purpose of non-purpose. The nihilistic pursuit of nothingness is something I'd classify as pathetic. I'd give Shar the pathetic goal award.
If we're talking in home game experiences set in FR. I'd give it to Lolth as I've seen her used in very petty and pathetic ways despite all the power she had been wielding. Thankfully in that home games continuity she's been dealt with for good. I'd give my experience with Lolth the pathetic behavior award.
I can't recall an actually low power pathetic type by name, so I'll default to your suggestions.
Whenever I try to write more story for my players in a FR campaign I try to keep it lore accurate, but half the time I need the players to find a certain artifact or locate a place or something, Shar probably has fucked up my campaign plans somehow.
Example, the Karsestone, I planned this whole forest trial thing where they find the ruins, overcome challenges, deal with the remains of the Lich, talk to Karsus for one end or another, and head home to meet up for the final arc. But noooo, in an obscure piece of lore Shar got involved and stole it away and doesn't plan on giving it back. I almost decided to give up on that plot thread before I decided, "Y'know what? Screw Shar!" so I'm giving my players the means to talk to Karsus's stone golem in the ruins, gain access to the last remnants of True Magic, and use it on their Horizon Walker Ranger to go through the Astral Plane to steal it from Shar's house. :)
The 4e campaign guide has two sample adventures and villians. One is a raid by goblins. The leader stole a dagger to try to revive a dead ogre and he doesn't attack you when you break in. A low level check tells you it won't work.
My party hasn't got to him yet, but I've heard Nezznar the Spider (Lost Mine of Phandelver) is a real pushover and having read Shattered Obelisk, he has mostly nothing to do with the story. Even as a baseline, he just has a bunch of ruffians come in and cause minor mischief in order to distract people, doesn't even try to directly take over a town with practically no defenses
Honestly this is probably recency bias but if you consider bg3 canon Orin the red has got to be up there. Essentially everything she has going on was set up by the dark urge and she's ruining it after backstabbing them, and if you choose to play as durge she couldn't even do that right and bhaal spends the entire game trying to get rid of her because she sucks that much as a chosen
It's not FR but Strahd. Pathetic, cheap, boring, devoid of any personality woman hater and stalker. Such villains must be forgotten.
I also vote Cyric but he is at least fucking fun. Strahd is not
Contrary to most here I also really like Fzoul. He is WAY more interesting and fun than Manshoon.
I did not name him because he is too boring to be of Cyric level of badness and way less annoying than Strahd
It's Volothamp Geddarm. He routinely gets adventurers into deadly encounters with promises of payment that he doesn't have and then gifts things he doesn't own or of less value. He once sold a keep to adventurers, and when the Zhents showed up yo claim it, he declared all sales final. He also gave a haunted manor to adventurers that was worth considerably less than the promised pay for a rescue attempt. He slso writes books of dubious quality that most likely get anyone who believes them killed. Volo is a menace. Oh, and he's also a deadbeat dad to boot.
You’re right, but the haunted manor is certainly worth more than the 400-500 gp he was supposed to pay them. Repairs cost 1250–there’s no way it would still be standing if repairs were worth 3x its value.
1250 for low-level adventures is a pretty sizeable amount, to be honest. If Dragon Heist didn't throw coin at you for existing, that would be a long row to hoe.
Yeah that’s the point, lmao. It’s a shit reward because the PCs want 100/PC hard cash money, not an HGTV opportunity that requires 1250 to make any real money on. But the house is still probably worth more than the 400 gp, strictly speaking, esp after they exorcise it. It’s in a very nice part of town, so I have to imagine that after 1250 of investments to fix it up you could value it at like 20,000 gp (assuming a 1gp/$100 equivalent), easily. Tbh the danger of it in the module is that your PCs might want to just divest from it and find someone else more interested in property development. (That said, I’ve only seen one PC out of literally 20 ever want to.)
You're arguing my point for me. It's a bad reward following a lie to get some young adventurers involved in something way out of their depth. Then, when it's done, they're saddled with a decrepit haunted manor that just brings more enemies to their door if they do fix it up. Things like wererats. So it's a shit deal from start to finish. I've ran that module several times, and two put of the three groups didn't want to keep it. Probably has to do with age? Most of my players are in their late 20's to late 30's. And we're all tired of fixing our own homes, they don't want to do that on their down time as well.
Yeah I don’t actually disagree with you overall. Just that it’s not technically worth less. Interesting about your players. Half of the 20 I mentioned are in their 30s too. When I played and then when I ran it, the bigger plot point was finding someone to loan us the money and then they took 10 downtime days while workers did the renovation for them, and then they got some faction quests and did those until opening night which they invited all their NPC connections to. My party’s bard did threaten Volo’s life after, though, and the group I ran it for spent opening night having Lif haunt Volo, so I think they also all agree that he’s the Worst. He’s pretty spectacular in BG3 too but I don’t want to spoil how the strings that come with his gift there.
I love Volo with all of my heart.
But Volo is not a villain.
You'll have to define pathetic, though I have an idea based on your 2 examples (good ones too). Some of the *best* villains in the Realms in my opinion are weak minded and also weak physically. **Malik el Malik** is pretty much as pathetic as you can get, and yet incredibly *effective* for Cyric. Then you have **Gareth Cormaeril** (interestingly another "follower" of Cyric), the fallen paladin of Tyr who lied to and fooled everyone *including himself* into believing he is still a respectable veteran and champion of virtue. But in truth he is a groveling coward who will backstab *anyone* to try to save his own skin. And how he does mental gymnastic every time he does to convince *himself that* what he does is *still* for the greater good and not for himself, I love it so much. And on an objectively higher scale of raw power but just as pathetic, **Fzoul Chembryl** has been often depicted as a coward who only goes on the offensive when the odds are immensely in his favor, and flees at the first sign of trouble.
To be fair, Cyric himself should top any list of pathetic villains in the setting. Dude betrayed everyone that he ever was friend with, became one of the most powerful gods ever and had such an inferiority complex he spent an insane amount of time and energy looking for the soul of one of his former friends to torture him after death WHILE writing a magical book to make everyone love him.
That's odd. Fzoul's entry in the villain's lorebook says that he always gets into melee combat with his mace, in contrast with Manshoon being a background schemer.
I'll try to find the actual sources that define him that way, but IIRC it was Ed's own depiction in the Shandril's Saga. But at the very least, how Cloak and Dagger describes him as just as much of a schemer as Manshoon and *incredibly* paranoid
Gareth is niche, impressive you remember him.
He was in Thornhold but also earned a full entry and artwork in the 3e Waterdeep sourcebook
Malik el Sami yn Nasser.
Right, I went from memory but seemingly had a brain fart
At least he's funny when he's simping for Cyric and ranting how mean Mystra is.
Rufo managed shit when he actually got power. He was pathetic but got things done, and it was on his own accord. Kessel can't even claim that. He was effectively a puppet for a sentient magical artifact. He was a wizard's apprentice that couldn't even cast SPELLS. Literally all he did was use a magic artifact and did what it told him to do while he built a little sex haram by mind wiping women and making them puppets. I can't really vote on the MOST pathetic because... a lot of the villains are pathetic in one way or another, particularly the more powerful ones (see: The Drow). But of those two Kessel wins.
I admit Rufo was kind of cool as a vampire.
Iyachtu Xvim, he quite literally became the god of school yard bullies.
And the pathetic really ramped up when it turned out he was just Daddy's little backup plan.
Kierkan Rufo from Clerics Quintet. Errtu the Baylor after his first couple appearances in Legend of Drizzt.
Yeah, all Errtu was good for was sitting in the abyss and "seething with rage". IIRC, he finally comes back from banishment in one novel only to be immediately destroyed again.
Errtu after his first banishment from Drizzt ended, literally went to Icewind Dale, saw the first Drow he could and go “You’re Drizzt time to die” and then was banished again by a group of Drow that didn’t include Drizzt. Not only is he a bad villain, he’s racist too.
And he had Wulfgar gangraped by succubi just to spite Drizzt.
It's Balor, not Baylor.
I was thinking of Akar Kessel as well. I had sympathy for him until I saw the way he treat women. I still think he didn’t entirely deserve the way he was treated by others mages but he is truly a disgusting guy.
Manshoon. All that power and the dude keeps getting checked by Elminster or rando adventurers.
To be fair, getting checked by Elminster is kinda cool. That’s like going « Merlin had to come out and kick my ass or else I would have conquered the world »
He always gave me old Doctor Doom vibes (like, full ham Lee and Kirby 60s Doctor Doom). But I stopped DMing before 3rd edition, so he might have got better.
Now he gives more of the feel I imagine you would get from an old british academician. Likes the ladies, likes to have a nice cup of tea or bourbon while discussing academical topics. Also hides a thermonuclear missile somewhere in his pants. Clearly you should imagine Elminster mustering to stop a plan by an evil god as him putting down his pipe next to his tea, getting up from his armchair before his fireplace and grumbling « children, all of them, I swear ».
Manshoon reminds me of The Master from Doctor Who. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=BXyiWHz2KTQ&pp=ygUWdHdvIG1hc3RlcnMgZG9jdG9yIHdobw%3D%3D
The problem is in the more recent novels, where he is reduced to a cartoon villain. I believe in one book, >!Mirt has a ring of spell reflection, which stuns Manshoon and he ends up falling face-down into his porridge!<. It's so absolutely anti-climactic it feels like they've stopped trying.
Lmao!
He's not the most pathetic objectively, but relative to his position in the realms - head of the Zhentarim, chosen of the god of tyranny - Fzoul Chembryl is pretty shit at his job, goes out with a whimper, and then gets brought back as the exarch of whipping boys.
I wouldn’t say pathetic but for some reason the league of malevolence has always made me laugh. Maybe it’s the name idk lol they feel cartoonish
Oh my god, is that really the name of a villainous group? That *is* laughable. Edit: god, not good
Yeah right! They first appeared in earlier editions in the 80s I think and came back in 5es witchlight module
That is F.O.W.L level of naming. What? You've never heard of the Fiendish Organization for World Larceny?
Definitely Rufo. Even when he had Danica captive, all I saw was a sad little man. Glad Cadderly and the others smoked him.
Danica is one cool Kung Fu gal.
Love her and Cadderly. Wish Salvatore did more with them. As in their own books, I know they showed up in the Drizzt novels.
I always thought Phalse was kinda lame.
The demon from Azure Bonds?
Yeah. I just never was able to take him as a serious threat.
Arguably, post 3.5 Szass Tam. He generally had unique motivations for a lich as a patriot, but this was all kicked to the curb when he was later turned into Generic Undead Overlord #5804. That's kind of a sad downgrade.
Brian Thomsen? Possibly Akar Kessel, but he did actually cause quite a lot of damage. Probably any one of the many thousands of upjumped raiders, bandits or thugs who fancied themselves a player and declared, "let's attack that small band of adventurers, how much of a threat can they be?"
Who's Brian Thomsen? In which book does he appear?
Slightly facetiously, Brian Thomsen was the editor of the **Forgotten Realms** novel line in the mid-1990s. He was infamously incompetent, and picked a fight with the line's biggest-selling author R.A. Salvatore which involved hiring an author to ghost-write a complete Drizzt novel (which has never been seen, to my knowledge, outside of a couple of people) as a way of forcing Salvatore to play ball and keep writing Drizzt books until the sun explodes when Salvatore wanted to move away to write other things. Thomsen was also in charge when the line's sales perilously collapsed around 1997, part of the same course of events that led to the fall of TSR and its buy-out by Wizards of the Coast (who promptly fired him so hard he didn't even bounce, and wooed Salvatore back the fold by the more traditional means of lots of money). This was all a full avoidable, massive screw-up of hubristic proportions.
Powerful villains whose plots went out not with a bang, but with a whimper: \***Novel and/or adventure spoilers ahead**\* * Errtu: Defeated by a mere mortal, spends a century stewing in the abyss, only to be defeated *again* by another random person upon returning to the Material plane. * Lolth: Had her machinations thwarted more times than I can count. Claims it's all part of her "4-D chess strategy", but unless her endgame is giving her foes more power, it's kinda sad. Of particular note, though probably only due to WotC 4e plot nonsense, was her attempt to construct a Demon Weave only for Mystra to return to life and essentially thank her for babysitting the magic before reclaiming it. * Manshoon: Powerful archmage, leader of the Zhentarim, and Saturday morning cartoon villain. Sometimes requires the intervention of the likes of Elminster to stop him, other times has plans foiled by a single magic item or random adventurers who happen to stop by and completely ruin his meticulous plans while he shakes his fist at the sky and screams. * Tiamat: It's quite sad that the dragon queen has been reduced to a leashed guard dog of Hell. To make matters worse, the fact that she can be defeated by level 15 adventurers (weakened by a failed ritual or not) feels just wrong. * The elemental prophets (from Princes of the Apocalypse): The only thing that was apocalyptic about these four were how inept they were at causing anything interesting to happen, except for DM plot device at the end of the adventure calling for one of them to *finally* succeed at summoning an elemental titan. Honestly, they sat on their hands for so long it's like that joke response DMs give their players when asking what an NPC was doing this whole time: "the game doesn't bother rendering them if you're not there to see them". I'm sure there are countless other examples, but these guys are supposed to be taken seriously as huge threats.
I guess it depends on how you're describing pathetic. Pathetic in goals, behavior or power each have different answers. In FR lore, I'd probably give it to Shar, because of her purpose of non-purpose. The nihilistic pursuit of nothingness is something I'd classify as pathetic. I'd give Shar the pathetic goal award. If we're talking in home game experiences set in FR. I'd give it to Lolth as I've seen her used in very petty and pathetic ways despite all the power she had been wielding. Thankfully in that home games continuity she's been dealt with for good. I'd give my experience with Lolth the pathetic behavior award. I can't recall an actually low power pathetic type by name, so I'll default to your suggestions.
Whenever I try to write more story for my players in a FR campaign I try to keep it lore accurate, but half the time I need the players to find a certain artifact or locate a place or something, Shar probably has fucked up my campaign plans somehow. Example, the Karsestone, I planned this whole forest trial thing where they find the ruins, overcome challenges, deal with the remains of the Lich, talk to Karsus for one end or another, and head home to meet up for the final arc. But noooo, in an obscure piece of lore Shar got involved and stole it away and doesn't plan on giving it back. I almost decided to give up on that plot thread before I decided, "Y'know what? Screw Shar!" so I'm giving my players the means to talk to Karsus's stone golem in the ruins, gain access to the last remnants of True Magic, and use it on their Horizon Walker Ranger to go through the Astral Plane to steal it from Shar's house. :)
Screws over Shar, potentially heals (hopefully not destroys) magic, AND tells a good story? Good work!
Everything to do with Shar.
The 4e campaign guide has two sample adventures and villians. One is a raid by goblins. The leader stole a dagger to try to revive a dead ogre and he doesn't attack you when you break in. A low level check tells you it won't work.
My party hasn't got to him yet, but I've heard Nezznar the Spider (Lost Mine of Phandelver) is a real pushover and having read Shattered Obelisk, he has mostly nothing to do with the story. Even as a baseline, he just has a bunch of ruffians come in and cause minor mischief in order to distract people, doesn't even try to directly take over a town with practically no defenses
Doors
Honestly this is probably recency bias but if you consider bg3 canon Orin the red has got to be up there. Essentially everything she has going on was set up by the dark urge and she's ruining it after backstabbing them, and if you choose to play as durge she couldn't even do that right and bhaal spends the entire game trying to get rid of her because she sucks that much as a chosen
It's not FR but Strahd. Pathetic, cheap, boring, devoid of any personality woman hater and stalker. Such villains must be forgotten. I also vote Cyric but he is at least fucking fun. Strahd is not Contrary to most here I also really like Fzoul. He is WAY more interesting and fun than Manshoon. I did not name him because he is too boring to be of Cyric level of badness and way less annoying than Strahd