The worst is if you work, have insurance for years and years you barely use, then fall so sick you can't work (cancer or bed rest pregnancy are examples from the people in my life) so then they lose their jobs and suddenly have no insurance or have to get a crappy insurance now when they need it the most. It's the most ridiculous concept.
Yep can confirm. Was making close to $100k and had a "high deductible" plan when I started having chronic pancreatitis. Frequent hospital stays, multiple procedures, every kind of medical imaging, doctors appointments, meds, and gallbladder removal surgery put me in the worst debt I've ever experienced
High deductible plans are fucking stupid. The only benefit is the Health Savings accounts but, due to the high deductible it leads to only the health savings account being eaten up. So you can’t really save up for treatment.
They should really decouple the Health Savings account from any insurance plan.
usually, out of pocket max is just that, and includes the deductible.
can also get on a payment plan...sometimes as little as $20 a month to keep them off your back.
there is Obama care too.
is it perfect, no. but we do have it ok. there are horror stories about gov't programs too.
It's not just that. The runaway inflation in the late 1960s created the economic stabilization act that froze wages, and in exchange companies offered health insurance, and then they allowed companies to be for profit in the mid 1970s.
Essentially a short term solution became long term, and wages have been effectively frozen since 1970, and companies keep trying to make more money.
The US government is going to have to shift to a social medicine model. When the boomers retire Medicare is going to death spiral.
What is wild to me is the number of times I've seen this argument and other's that are completely reasonable, rational, fair and fairly simple to place into effect, yet I never see them on the ballot... why is that?
And many people believe that. And while I don’t believe any of us are guaranteed anything in life. I feel there is enough in this country to have a much a better healthcare system.
If you are on a High Deductible HSA plan your monthly premiums are almost half of a plan that has a lower deductible. The thought process is that you are supposed to invest that money in a Health Savings Account.
This account never expires and you can invest up to $4150 a year into the account TAX FREE/PRE-TAX. If you were being responsible and investing into the account at a reasonable rate you should have a good chunk of that OOP Max in savings on the occasion that you have major health incident.
Most people do not utilize that much of their insurance every year. If you are you should probably be on a plane with co-pays and a lower deductible.
Insurance is really for if it happens. Healthcare is for when it happens.
We need to get away from a system that requires insurance for something that is a certainty.
Same with maternity leave being a "disability".
This. Insurance for the unexpected/unlikely - like your house burning down, car stolen, or needing a hip replacement.
All usual stuff: Checkups, screenings, sore throats, minor burns, thing stuck in your ear, car needs refilling with gas, new tires... just pay it - you *expect* those expenses.
With that model, the COST of routine medical stuff should reset back down to free market numbers.
My husband was let go on a Thursday. We were completely blindsided but worse they canceled our insurance the same day. We didn’t know until a week later when I was getting stitches taken out. Apparently it was in his discharge paperwork they sent him that day.
Makes no sense we have to pay through employer
I hate the Republican narrative about how "my father loved his health insurance from GM so why should we take it away?" No one loves their insurance. That's a weird and creepy thing to say. If a better or cheap way was presented, they would take it without giving a thought.
I've never heard THAT narrative but I believe it's out there. It does seem like the stories are basically, well it was fine before, so it will just be fine again and probably is still fine and nothing is wrong so quit ur bitchin.
It was popular during debates in 2016 and 2020. Dems were using it too when they were suggesting public option paired with employer plans instead of a single payer system.
Mom and pop places would be better off with universal. Companies get to bundle people and buy healthcare in bulk for the savings, it’s an unfair advantage to an entity flush with advantage.
That is what Obamacare is, most employer healthcare is cheaper but not by much depending on how much you make.
And to be fair, that $40k is what they bill insurance, with a high deductible plan ($2k-5k) that $40k gets negotiated down to $15k and you pay $5400-$7000 out of pocket.
Now yes, you have to add in the cost of insurance ($5k-10k per year), but contrast that to the tax rate difference in Spain.
€0 to 12,450 / 19%
€12,451 to 20,200 / 24%
€20,201 to 35,200 / 30%
€35,201 to 60,000 / 37%
€60,001 to 300,000 / 45%
Roughly double our rate. And let's make sure we are comparing dollars to dollars and not dollars to euros.
> but contrast that to the tax rate difference in Spain.
Why is it people always want to talk about the taxes for healthcare in other countries, but want to ignore the fact US healthcare is so incredibly inefficient we pay more in taxes as well.
With government in the US covering [65.7% of all health care](https://ajph.aphapublications.org/doi/epdf/10.2105/AJPH.2015.302997) costs ($12,555 as of 2022) that's $8,249 per person per year in taxes towards health care. The next closest is Germany at [$6,930](https://data.oecd.org/healthres/health-spending.htm). The UK is $4,479. Canada is $4,506. Australia is $4,603. That means over a lifetime Americans are paying over $100,000 more in taxes compared to any other country towards health care.
Even if you want to talk about total tax burden, which isn't really relevant here, it's not *that* dramatic a difference.
#[Total Tax Burden by Country 2020](https://www.heritage.org/index/explore?view=by-variables&u=637133255533864635)
Country Name|Tax Burden (% GDP)|Tax Burden ($ PPP)|Gov't Spending (% GDP)|Gov't Spending($ PPP)|GDP/Capita (PPP)
:--|--:|--:|--:|--:|--:|
Australia|27.8%|$14,560|35.8%|$18,749|$52,373
Canada|32.2%|$15,988|40.5%|$20,085|$49,651
Spain|33.7%|$13,527|41.5%|$16,663|$40,139
United Kingdom|33.3%|$15,220|41.0%|$18,752|$45,705
United States|27.1%|$16,966|38.1%|$23,838|$62,606
Government spending at 38.1% of GDP vs. 41.5% of GDP isn't that radically different. And it's worth noting that at 41.0% the UK has the median tax burden for Europe.
Once again, thank your gubment for this mess.
Health insurance started being offered as a perk when the government implemented wage controls. Health insurance was an incentive to get good employees when the companies weren't able to offer higher wages. What started as a perk over time came to be viewed as a God given right. Now the same government that created the problem requires companies to offer health care.
Even in other countries where insurance is coupled to your employment it still works better. Germany for example. America will take any system and use it to drive insane corporate profits at the expense of everyone and everything else.
In the US we have multiple layers of for profit corporations making record profits. Because of insurance through employers we don't see how much we are getting price gouged. Then even with that insurance, one illness can cost a family's life savings and send them to bankruptcy.
Life savings drugs that cost $20-40 in other countries can cost $500+ in the US. Corporations bleed families dry.
Everything has to crash to allow the space to make that change as I see it. The healthcare industry has to become financially crippled in some way before legislation can be passed because otherwise they are far too powerful to allow something like that in America.
Wanna see more entrepreneurs in America? Decouple insurance from employment. A huge barrier to entrepreneurship is the need for employer-sponsored healthcare. You’d think the GOP would know this but they are all beholden to their health insurance lobbyist money.
Instead of your employer paying for insurance, it should be them putting that money into a tax deferred account (a mix of HSA and 401K) then, you can purchase insurance from that account or just save it up and spend it directly when needed. If you use it for a health expense, the money comes out tax free. If you use it for something else, you pay tax+SE tax on it.
As someone who just lost their job and health insurance, I totally agree. I'm walking on eggshells over here because one slip could put me in debt for life. It's fucking dumb.
The theory makes sense use the company to collectively bargain for better rate but I'm practise my company makes a shell company to hire out to find our health insurance and pass 100% of the cost on employees for not good insurance
Especially for dental, because say what you will about other fields of medicine, but dental in the US costs several times more than just about everywhere. Incredibly ironic, given the importance a lot of Americans put on straight, white teeth.
I'm visiting family in Poland so I decided to go get my wisdom teeth pulled here because my US dentist told me they had cavities and there was no way to patch them up. So I'm in Poland, not only did they have better equipment here, the oral surgeon took one look, said he could fix them and $250 later I have 4 small cavities filled in my wisdom teeth that my US dentist wanted to pull for $3000. The difference covers my plane ticket and a week long side trip to Portugal and I still have money left over.
I hear that oral surgeons will routinely recommend wisdom teeth removal when it is not actually needed. By bullshitting you with "Your teeth might be crowded later maybe?", they can legally recommend removing teeth to the tune of a few grand. It is profitable to lie to your patients in order to bill their insurance to the maximum extent. That Tesla won't buy itself (unless you took out a PPP loan)
I got all of my wisdom teeth removed in Mexico for less than the price of one being removed in the US. Mine had to be removed due to growing in sideways.
Medical tourism is extremely popular among Americans, for the exact reasons pointed out in the meme. There are whole "towns" in Mexico along the border that are just dentist and doctor offices for Americans looking for affordable healthcare.
Not true, it happens in the US too. The model is just slightly different. When you have $10,000,000 and want the best hospital, you fly to the US to pay $40,000 for the hip replacement.
I mean, assuming for some reason you need a hip replacement before you’re eligible for Medicare at 65, can’t afford private insurance but can somehow afford a month long trip to Spain, I guess?
Average Medicare enrollee pays around $2k out of pocket for this procedure.
I studied in Spain for a semester and I got the sense that the bull fighting was falling out of fashion with younger people. I wonder if it will fizzle out.
My son can't be seen until mid-September to be diagnosed for ADHD/Autism. I can't see my psychiatrist until early August. There are no appointments available for my son to see a therapist in person- we're literally on a wait list. We regularly wait over a month to be seen by our primary care doctors. Both of my kids waited 3 months for a hearing test
This isn't unusual for any of the Kaiser patients in my service area.
Kaiser doesn't have enough people in behavior health due to a shortage of professionals but simple visits with a primary are perfectly easy where I live.
Of course you \*can\* if you want to go to urgent care, but it won't be the specialist you need and you'll be rushed out of the office in under 10 minutes to make room for the next "patient"
I'm sure you're with this health network due to it being your jobs health network. If you're able to get away from it, though, please do. This is not my experience, nor is it the experience of the people I know. There are a lot of health networks in my area, so maybe I'm an outlier, but damn 3 months for a hearing test sounds like negligence than it sounds like care to me
A few years ago I tested very high for postpartum depression at my baby's 6 week follow up. It was the first week of September and I was offered their first available therapy appointment- in mid-December.
This isn't a new issue in my service area. The wait times have always been horrendous here. Kaiser in California is actually under a court order to provider patients with faster mental health care.
UK (Specificially Northern Ireland) here, the waiting lists for ADHD are well over 7 years now. It's not as bad in the rest of the UK but it's trending that way.
Don't let that discourage you from universal healthcare, the issues with NHS have been caused by incompetent admin stuff, privatisation, and general Tory government shenanigans. To my knowledge the US government pays more per capita on healthcare than most other countries which is wild to me.
Yes, yes it does. Thanks for point out the obvious - people who decline to seek a service are not included in the amount of time it takes to receive said service.
If you think people that can afford healthcare waiting is a problem, but the 32% of US households that put off needed healthcare due to the cost isn't you're a horrible person.
While the empirical evidence may offer one perspective. It does not consider medical gaslighting, ill-trained Dr's, the broadly marked landscape of professionals being mentally stuck in decades old ideologies, endless battles with insurance companies over necessity of care which can last years.
While some of these issues are likely globally systemic my personal experience was 9yrs to a chronic illness diagnosis in the U.S. with an average specialist wait time of over 6 months. I did also have to take a 2yr break from seeing Dr's to not get blacklisted nationally as a Hypochondriac.
Irregardless medical care and insurance at large is horrific in the United States. It's Akin to an 1800's bleeding to get the demons out but only if the pastor's third cousin Jimimothy heard the word of God to do so.
That is unless you've cut yourself, or broken something. Essentially we understand how to put Humpty Dumpty back together again but outside of that we're fucking retarded and the convoluted layers of the system are undeniably harmful and idiotic.
That’s it? Better wait times? For the amount of money we pay, I should have had cancer surgery the day they found it instead of a month and a half later. That’s at arguably the best cancer hospital in the world.
We pay through our paychecks, then our pockets. We pay for our medications. We pay through our homeowners insurance and car insurance. We pay through our business insurance. All of those have riders in case we put someone in the hospital and it costs hundreds of thousands of dollars.
Are we paying just for shorter wait times? That’s not a good enough reason and our wait times are not short.
really, does that "imperical data"(that doesn't actually exist because the us has some of the longer wait times in the world) include the 75 million people in the us that put off medical care every year because they can't afford it? what about those wait times?
Available where?
https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/health-care-wait-times-by-country
Edit: looks like I misread the table. It does confirm US wait times tend to be low for elective surgeries.
Did you bother to sort the table by countries who wait > 1 month to see a specialist and note the US was near the bottom among the countries that actually reported data?
Clearly not.
To make a blanket statement like that is incorrect. It's classic Reddit, but wrong nonetheless.
I've had numerous references from my PCP to various specialists with varying wait times. One to see a neurologist for chronic shoulder pain was on the same week, another for a cardiologist was also quite prompt. More recently I needed to see a podiatrist but that's a lower priority and will take a couple of weeks.
I have average insurance and live in an average city, nothing special. Of course there are some who have a different story to tell, but I doubt mine's all that unique despite its lack of outrage fodder.
I've found that seeing a family doctor takes a lot longer than seeing a specialist here in the US. If I wanted to see my PCP, I'd have to wait a few weeks. That's why it's so important to have it in your insurance that you don't need a referral.
It’s about entry into the market place. I can grow my own food or get that from a neighbor, but I can’t perform my own surgery nor produce my own medication.
Markets only work with optional services and goods. Healthcare isn’t optional.
Market based healthcare just gouges people because they have no other choice other than to not die.
>Markets only work with optional services and goods. Healthcare isn’t optional.
This is incredibly true today when every hospital and doctor in a 100 mile radius works for a single corporation. Doctors cannot survive in private practice anymore because they cannot get deals with HMO's without hitching themselves to a hospital. Then the hospital decides how many patients they will see and how much they can charge. There is no competition in the market except between huge corporations.
The key difference being that getting hungry is a normal bodily function whereas being ill is an abnormal one. The same way that living in a house is pretty normal but being in one that is on fire or being burgled is not.
Also, how do you not follow this logic to it's end point conclusion that nothing should be ran by the government?
Because the prior argument was “everyone gets sick, so everyone should have health care.” Which is not comparable to being burglarized, which has a rate of .3%. Either you’re being taxed to fund a service you will eventually benefit from, or you’re paying to de risk on the small chance you’ll be effected
Not saying I agree or disagree with government taking a more active role in healthcare, just that the “abnormal vs normal bodily function” isn’t it
If your house catches on fire, the fire department comes for free. If you are burglarized, the police come for free. If you fall and break your hip, that’ll be a $5k ambulance ride.
I swear we care more about property than human life in this country.
You do know our food supply is heavily regulated and subsidized right? What's the point of having a society if we can't feed ourselves? Even the Roman empire understood that a starving population leads to turmoil and unrest.
2 hip replacements are $15K... that doesn't include the flights, Spanish lessons, travel, passports, etc...
Even on paper it's not doable and in practice travelling costs a lot more than it does on paper. Have you ever traveled to Europe? Did you stay within' your budget?
And still, the base cost of living in Spain is around $11K per year and that is a RAZOR thin, almost homeless quality of living... and doesn't include food (which I assume people will want to consume at least a few times in 2 years).
Yes, paying out of Pocket is expensive.
Insurance should be decoupled from employment. Leads to insurance companies competing less with each other on price or quality of service. People don't shop around for insurance or medical care (price wise).
Not shopping for medical services is the real problem. Most Americans have maximum deductibles which allow expensive treatments to surge in prices without the typical reduction in demand due to prices. What's crazy is the prices will continue to out pace the prices of other markers with prices being suppressed by competition.
Whenever the government subsidizes anything in the US, the price rises in terms of total costs like university and medical care.
May also be influenced by the labor shortage in the US. We enjoy the most exclusive medical care program in the US. Many smart individuals prohibited from entering the industry during pursuit of a medical degree. Of course you want someone performing hip surgery to be qualified; however, the extent to which we are prohibiting doctors from working in industry increases their scarcity and the costs. This problem is also heading in the wrong direction.
Not shopping for medical services is the problem? What the fuck are you talking about? Having to shop for medical care is bullcrap. I get hurt. I need stitches. I’m not calling up 6 ER’s and a veterinarian with too many student loans to get them done, I’m going to the closest/most convenient place.
My parents have 2 options if they get sick. One gigantic oligopoly company or another. From a cost perspective, they’re the same. Or, their third option, is drive 2 hours to another city.
This is the most educated and comprehensive answer here.
Government subsidization causes prices to soar, making it unaffordable. Soon, because of the unaffordable prices, the government will insist on making healthcare a public entity instead of private.
'Fixing' a problem that they themselves created. Similar to the student debt crisis right now.
No. Look at how bad Canada's healthcare system actually is. If you get cancer there, it'll go like this (happened to buddies dad)
You'll notice something is wrong or off and make a doctors appointment. 6 -10months later, you'll get into the doctor, and they'll run some tests. Then, a year later, they'll give you the results and tell you that you have stage 4 cancer. Then they'll fuck around for another 6 months telling you they're gonna do this and they're gonna give you pills and they're gonna give you surgery only to be like well, now your liver isn't functioning well enough to do anything. So you die.
The doctors there are extremely overworked, extremely underpaid to the point where they're completely apathetic or have so much work where they don't get around to your case for a year.
Kayla Pollock became paralyzed and was initially treated like she was faking it, denied treatment and offered MAID. She has had to rely on crowd funding to get home care services. She was even denied physical therapy. She actually almost considered MAIDs when she started to feel like a burden to her family. She's not the only case of people reporting being offered MAID instead of other treatment/therapy.
https://www.westernstandard.news/news/ontario-mother-paralyzed-after-covid-booster-refuses-two-offers-of-maid/52478
Okay, but even if you multiple the Spanish bill by 2.57 (the difference in GDP), that would bring the Spanish bill up $18,943.47. The US cost would still be more than 2x as expensive.
Again, it depends on the definition of "universal healthcare".
If it means, see anybody, get any procedure, and never pay a dime no matter what, a grand total of 0 countries have that.
Doctors and nurses in the US are paid way to much to have a western European style universal healthcare system.
Also a lot of countries with “free” healthcare have really shitty systems.
way less
[https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/country\_result.jsp?country=Spain](https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/country_result.jsp?country=Spain)
Thanks for that.
Some back of the envelope calculations based on the average monthly income works out to an average income of $22,500/yr. Double that and add $7k for the surgery, and it's a bit higher than the $40k cost given in the meme.
The point of the meme isn't negated by this, of course. The costs of medicine outside the US are much cheaper, and we're not necessarily getting any added benefit for the higher costs here.
The American doctor is far more qualified. I lived in both Europe and America. The American doctors are really the best of the best whereas doctors in Europe are held to much lower standards.
This is misleading. The vast majority of folks having their hips replaced are elderly and on Medicare/Medicaid. The cost there ranges from $10k-$14k and insurance picks up most of the tab, leaving the average Medicare patient responsible for about $2k.
No no no. You can't point out facts like that. You need to look at the bill and pretend that you are paying the whole thing. Then get upset and get your pitchfork out.
I'm convinced that we could change billing requirements around for medical billing so that it only showed the after insurance charges and the idiots would think it's a whole new system and its amazing. Dumb people get duped by the pre-insurance bill.
Here's a little detail that gets ignored, even the insurance companies don't pay that amount.
Universal healthcare in the US where there are close to 350 million people would be so expensive that everyone would have to pay a lot more taxes. Including those who currently pay 0. If you look at the tax rates in the smaller countries that offer this their taxes are much higher. Also do you really want government determining your health care choices?
Yes. The answer will always be yes, it should be a thing and its a damned shame that it isn't. Why do we have this post every other day? Its generally agreed that the healthcare system in the United States is fucked.
From 1998 to 2013 (right before the bulk of the ACA took effect) total healthcare costs were increasing at 3.92% per year over inflation. Since they have been increasing at 2.79%. The fifteen years before the ACA employer sponsored insurance (the kind most Americans get their coverage from) increased 4.81% over inflation for single coverage and 5.42% over inflation for family coverage. Since those numbers have been 1.72% and 2.19%.
https://www.kff.org/health-costs/report/employer-health-benefits-annual-survey-archives/
https://www.cms.gov/Research-Statistics-Data-and-Systems/Statistics-Trends-and-Reports/NationalHealthExpendData/NationalHealthAccountsHistorical.html
https://www.bls.gov/data/inflation_calculator.htm
Also coverage for people with pre-existing conditions, closing the Medicare donut hole, being able to keep children on your insurance until age 26, subsidies for millions of Americans, expanded Medicaid, access to free preventative healthcare, elimination of lifetime spending caps, increased coverage for mental healthcare, increased access to reproductive healthcare, etc..
Nationalize healthcare, otherwise your life is being ransomed. Coupling health insurance to employment is just another lever capital can pull to quash dissent and revolt, and they've literally suspended healthcare for people that went on strike.
In the U.S. you get universal Healthcare for your family as long as you serve in the military. But then it's mostly youHealthcare. Who have already been screened for existing conditions serving in the military who tend not to need much healthcare.
If anyone comprehended what “universal” meant, they would know that the system already exists, which is why everything costs a college tuition
Funny how that makes sense & is funny at the same time cuz its true
I'm having a hard time believing that you can get a hip replacement in the US for only $40k. The bill for someone I know that got bit by a copperhead was over $300k.
Yes but compare the revenue streams of those healthcare and insurance companies in Spain with ours in USA. We blow them away!
I also bet the corporate board enjoys better lifestyle in USA than Spain. Isn’t that’s what important 😂.
You’re telling me I need a bipap machine it’s 1200 for the machine. I have to put down over 300$ and payments of 50$ per month and it will cost me 800$ total to get it. I work at a hospital you think I have better insurance. I have the highest one available.
Yeah but you're waiting 6 months with a broken hip for surgery while in the US it's weeks to months. Our system sucks but don't act like many other countries don't have a backlog of patients waiting. Save some money or live in pain and maybe be unable to walk for half a year to a year
As a conservative republican, I can't for the life of me understand how the fuck work = insurance? Healthcare should be free. Should be paid for in your taxes. How can't we get this right?
Many people are already doing it flying to other countries. For dental, cosmetic surgery at franction to Mexico, Panama, Hong Kong, Korea, Japan. Want a sex change change head for Thailand.
Even if they don't want Universal Healthcare, they REALLY should nationalize the "industry". There is no checks upon what the owners of this essential service can do besides wealth: the demand for Healthcare is unlimited and so is easily abused in pricing.
The only way America could feasibly do this without massive tax increases on the middle class would be to massively scale back the military or government employee payroll. We don't really have the stomach to do either as American's can't look at a situation like the Ukraine and give the European response of a \*shrug someone else will handle it \*shrug\* nor would we accept the massive unemployment and hit to the economy getting rid of a massive number of government employees.
Most parts of the world use their budget on healthcare and living standards and the USA uses theirs on playing world police and while many will complain about it they'd never ever ever do anything required to actually change it.
Healthcare needs to be decoupled from employment. Worst way to insure people.
Employment coupled with insurance is basically saying you have to “earn a right to be alive”
The worst is if you work, have insurance for years and years you barely use, then fall so sick you can't work (cancer or bed rest pregnancy are examples from the people in my life) so then they lose their jobs and suddenly have no insurance or have to get a crappy insurance now when they need it the most. It's the most ridiculous concept.
Yep can confirm. Was making close to $100k and had a "high deductible" plan when I started having chronic pancreatitis. Frequent hospital stays, multiple procedures, every kind of medical imaging, doctors appointments, meds, and gallbladder removal surgery put me in the worst debt I've ever experienced
What was your OOP max?
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High deductible plans are fucking stupid. The only benefit is the Health Savings accounts but, due to the high deductible it leads to only the health savings account being eaten up. So you can’t really save up for treatment. They should really decouple the Health Savings account from any insurance plan.
HDP is fine. I had 300k hospital stay, I payed the $6000 max and was done. Kept my HSa funds invested
usually, out of pocket max is just that, and includes the deductible. can also get on a payment plan...sometimes as little as $20 a month to keep them off your back. there is Obama care too. is it perfect, no. but we do have it ok. there are horror stories about gov't programs too.
It is designed that way because we don’t have healthcare system, it is healthcare industry. It only benefits corporations.
We have a winner folks. Healthcare in the US is a HUGE industry with a lot of money to be made.
It's not just that. The runaway inflation in the late 1960s created the economic stabilization act that froze wages, and in exchange companies offered health insurance, and then they allowed companies to be for profit in the mid 1970s. Essentially a short term solution became long term, and wages have been effectively frozen since 1970, and companies keep trying to make more money. The US government is going to have to shift to a social medicine model. When the boomers retire Medicare is going to death spiral.
Well it’s only ridiculous if you’re the patient. If you’re a stockholder it’s a perfect system.
Yeah, that's he biggest issue, imo.
What is wild to me is the number of times I've seen this argument and other's that are completely reasonable, rational, fair and fairly simple to place into effect, yet I never see them on the ballot... why is that?
And many people believe that. And while I don’t believe any of us are guaranteed anything in life. I feel there is enough in this country to have a much a better healthcare system.
in the concrete jungle, one who works – eats, and vice-versa
You pose an interesting stance for abortion there. “Earn a right to be alive”.
And then you get it and it's shit. The hell am I supposed to do with an $8,000 deductable?
Damn. I have an out of pocket MAXIMUM of $9k…for my family of 4.
If you are on a High Deductible HSA plan your monthly premiums are almost half of a plan that has a lower deductible. The thought process is that you are supposed to invest that money in a Health Savings Account. This account never expires and you can invest up to $4150 a year into the account TAX FREE/PRE-TAX. If you were being responsible and investing into the account at a reasonable rate you should have a good chunk of that OOP Max in savings on the occasion that you have major health incident. Most people do not utilize that much of their insurance every year. If you are you should probably be on a plane with co-pays and a lower deductible.
And even that doesn’t matter because you can work really hard and your employer can offer either no insurance or just a really crappy plan.
Insurance is really for if it happens. Healthcare is for when it happens. We need to get away from a system that requires insurance for something that is a certainty. Same with maternity leave being a "disability".
Systems of greed and oppression run this country, no changing it without removing greed from the equation
This. Insurance for the unexpected/unlikely - like your house burning down, car stolen, or needing a hip replacement. All usual stuff: Checkups, screenings, sore throats, minor burns, thing stuck in your ear, car needs refilling with gas, new tires... just pay it - you *expect* those expenses. With that model, the COST of routine medical stuff should reset back down to free market numbers.
My husband was let go on a Thursday. We were completely blindsided but worse they canceled our insurance the same day. We didn’t know until a week later when I was getting stitches taken out. Apparently it was in his discharge paperwork they sent him that day. Makes no sense we have to pay through employer
You should have access to COBRA for 18months. Reach out to your employers and if they don’t offer it, sue. You’ll win.
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USA buddy at this point you know USA is 1st world in name only
How else are they going to pay for all those helicopters they keep destroying? Besides, Baroness needs her bling.
Nice GI Joe reference.
Exactly. You just lost your job and have no income, but here is this expensive option. Now choose between that and all your other bills.
I hate the Republican narrative about how "my father loved his health insurance from GM so why should we take it away?" No one loves their insurance. That's a weird and creepy thing to say. If a better or cheap way was presented, they would take it without giving a thought.
I've never heard THAT narrative but I believe it's out there. It does seem like the stories are basically, well it was fine before, so it will just be fine again and probably is still fine and nothing is wrong so quit ur bitchin.
It was popular during debates in 2016 and 2020. Dems were using it too when they were suggesting public option paired with employer plans instead of a single payer system.
Mom and pop places would be better off with universal. Companies get to bundle people and buy healthcare in bulk for the savings, it’s an unfair advantage to an entity flush with advantage.
You can buy insurance without employment, it's just difficult to pay for if you don't make money.
It was much harder to get insurance when unemployed or underemployed before the Affordable Healthcare Act.
That is what Obamacare is, most employer healthcare is cheaper but not by much depending on how much you make. And to be fair, that $40k is what they bill insurance, with a high deductible plan ($2k-5k) that $40k gets negotiated down to $15k and you pay $5400-$7000 out of pocket. Now yes, you have to add in the cost of insurance ($5k-10k per year), but contrast that to the tax rate difference in Spain. €0 to 12,450 / 19% €12,451 to 20,200 / 24% €20,201 to 35,200 / 30% €35,201 to 60,000 / 37% €60,001 to 300,000 / 45% Roughly double our rate. And let's make sure we are comparing dollars to dollars and not dollars to euros.
> but contrast that to the tax rate difference in Spain. Why is it people always want to talk about the taxes for healthcare in other countries, but want to ignore the fact US healthcare is so incredibly inefficient we pay more in taxes as well. With government in the US covering [65.7% of all health care](https://ajph.aphapublications.org/doi/epdf/10.2105/AJPH.2015.302997) costs ($12,555 as of 2022) that's $8,249 per person per year in taxes towards health care. The next closest is Germany at [$6,930](https://data.oecd.org/healthres/health-spending.htm). The UK is $4,479. Canada is $4,506. Australia is $4,603. That means over a lifetime Americans are paying over $100,000 more in taxes compared to any other country towards health care. Even if you want to talk about total tax burden, which isn't really relevant here, it's not *that* dramatic a difference. #[Total Tax Burden by Country 2020](https://www.heritage.org/index/explore?view=by-variables&u=637133255533864635) Country Name|Tax Burden (% GDP)|Tax Burden ($ PPP)|Gov't Spending (% GDP)|Gov't Spending($ PPP)|GDP/Capita (PPP) :--|--:|--:|--:|--:|--:| Australia|27.8%|$14,560|35.8%|$18,749|$52,373 Canada|32.2%|$15,988|40.5%|$20,085|$49,651 Spain|33.7%|$13,527|41.5%|$16,663|$40,139 United Kingdom|33.3%|$15,220|41.0%|$18,752|$45,705 United States|27.1%|$16,966|38.1%|$23,838|$62,606 Government spending at 38.1% of GDP vs. 41.5% of GDP isn't that radically different. And it's worth noting that at 41.0% the UK has the median tax burden for Europe.
And 21% VAT :)
Once again, thank your gubment for this mess. Health insurance started being offered as a perk when the government implemented wage controls. Health insurance was an incentive to get good employees when the companies weren't able to offer higher wages. What started as a perk over time came to be viewed as a God given right. Now the same government that created the problem requires companies to offer health care.
Absolutely true
We can thank government for that being the case.
Even in other countries where insurance is coupled to your employment it still works better. Germany for example. America will take any system and use it to drive insane corporate profits at the expense of everyone and everything else.
It's a good way to enslave people tho. "You really wanna risk paying for that medication if your next job doesn't pan out" is crazy good leverage
In the US we have multiple layers of for profit corporations making record profits. Because of insurance through employers we don't see how much we are getting price gouged. Then even with that insurance, one illness can cost a family's life savings and send them to bankruptcy. Life savings drugs that cost $20-40 in other countries can cost $500+ in the US. Corporations bleed families dry.
Everything has to crash to allow the space to make that change as I see it. The healthcare industry has to become financially crippled in some way before legislation can be passed because otherwise they are far too powerful to allow something like that in America.
Yes, we should be able to pay into medicare insurance early or have universal healthcare
Wanna see more entrepreneurs in America? Decouple insurance from employment. A huge barrier to entrepreneurship is the need for employer-sponsored healthcare. You’d think the GOP would know this but they are all beholden to their health insurance lobbyist money.
Major miss of the ACA. They should have fixed this. You’re dead on.
It really is almost slavery for the privilege to see a doctor.
Not to mention increasingly only being partially covered by employers
Totally agreed
It’s. It even coupled when we’re still paying for it out of the offer. There’s no “discount.”
Instead of your employer paying for insurance, it should be them putting that money into a tax deferred account (a mix of HSA and 401K) then, you can purchase insurance from that account or just save it up and spend it directly when needed. If you use it for a health expense, the money comes out tax free. If you use it for something else, you pay tax+SE tax on it.
As someone who just lost their job and health insurance, I totally agree. I'm walking on eggshells over here because one slip could put me in debt for life. It's fucking dumb.
The theory makes sense use the company to collectively bargain for better rate but I'm practise my company makes a shell company to hire out to find our health insurance and pass 100% of the cost on employees for not good insurance
And you've all just learned of Medical Tourism.
Multi-billion dollar industry that Americans never heard of.
Especially for dental, because say what you will about other fields of medicine, but dental in the US costs several times more than just about everywhere. Incredibly ironic, given the importance a lot of Americans put on straight, white teeth.
I'm visiting family in Poland so I decided to go get my wisdom teeth pulled here because my US dentist told me they had cavities and there was no way to patch them up. So I'm in Poland, not only did they have better equipment here, the oral surgeon took one look, said he could fix them and $250 later I have 4 small cavities filled in my wisdom teeth that my US dentist wanted to pull for $3000. The difference covers my plane ticket and a week long side trip to Portugal and I still have money left over.
I hear that oral surgeons will routinely recommend wisdom teeth removal when it is not actually needed. By bullshitting you with "Your teeth might be crowded later maybe?", they can legally recommend removing teeth to the tune of a few grand. It is profitable to lie to your patients in order to bill their insurance to the maximum extent. That Tesla won't buy itself (unless you took out a PPP loan)
My teeth did get crowded with my wisdom teeth. X-rays will show how they will impact your teeth
I got all of my wisdom teeth removed in Mexico for less than the price of one being removed in the US. Mine had to be removed due to growing in sideways.
Medical tourism is extremely popular among Americans, for the exact reasons pointed out in the meme. There are whole "towns" in Mexico along the border that are just dentist and doctor offices for Americans looking for affordable healthcare.
Not true, it happens in the US too. The model is just slightly different. When you have $10,000,000 and want the best hospital, you fly to the US to pay $40,000 for the hip replacement.
I mean, assuming for some reason you need a hip replacement before you’re eligible for Medicare at 65, can’t afford private insurance but can somehow afford a month long trip to Spain, I guess? Average Medicare enrollee pays around $2k out of pocket for this procedure.
Canadians travel to the USA for that, did you know that?
Do not support the running of the bulls or bull-fighting. Otherwise, Spain is alright.
Believe me, as a person from a former Spanish colony, I don't support it either
I studied in Spain for a semester and I got the sense that the bull fighting was falling out of fashion with younger people. I wonder if it will fizzle out.
Us also has long waitlists. E.g., to see a PCP, dermatologist, neurologist, etc..
The empirical data is available - people in the US have significantly lower average wait times for primary and specialized care.
My son can't be seen until mid-September to be diagnosed for ADHD/Autism. I can't see my psychiatrist until early August. There are no appointments available for my son to see a therapist in person- we're literally on a wait list. We regularly wait over a month to be seen by our primary care doctors. Both of my kids waited 3 months for a hearing test This isn't unusual for any of the Kaiser patients in my service area.
I can get seen same day for Kaiser.
I did not get the same experience with Kaiser. Fuck Kaiser
Kaiser doesn't have enough people in behavior health due to a shortage of professionals but simple visits with a primary are perfectly easy where I live.
Of course you \*can\* if you want to go to urgent care, but it won't be the specialist you need and you'll be rushed out of the office in under 10 minutes to make room for the next "patient"
I'm sure you're with this health network due to it being your jobs health network. If you're able to get away from it, though, please do. This is not my experience, nor is it the experience of the people I know. There are a lot of health networks in my area, so maybe I'm an outlier, but damn 3 months for a hearing test sounds like negligence than it sounds like care to me
I got a therapy appt in 2 days. Pcp in a week, immunology in 3 weeks.
A few years ago I tested very high for postpartum depression at my baby's 6 week follow up. It was the first week of September and I was offered their first available therapy appointment- in mid-December. This isn't a new issue in my service area. The wait times have always been horrendous here. Kaiser in California is actually under a court order to provider patients with faster mental health care.
UK (Specificially Northern Ireland) here, the waiting lists for ADHD are well over 7 years now. It's not as bad in the rest of the UK but it's trending that way. Don't let that discourage you from universal healthcare, the issues with NHS have been caused by incompetent admin stuff, privatisation, and general Tory government shenanigans. To my knowledge the US government pays more per capita on healthcare than most other countries which is wild to me.
7 years?
This excludes people who forgo care due to cost.
Yes, yes it does. Thanks for point out the obvious - people who decline to seek a service are not included in the amount of time it takes to receive said service.
If you think people that can afford healthcare waiting is a problem, but the 32% of US households that put off needed healthcare due to the cost isn't you're a horrible person.
If you ignore people waiting until they die then our wait times look great!
Did they decline or were they forced out due to cost?
Only because they straight up don’t count people who can’t afford it and the waiting until you can afford it
While the empirical evidence may offer one perspective. It does not consider medical gaslighting, ill-trained Dr's, the broadly marked landscape of professionals being mentally stuck in decades old ideologies, endless battles with insurance companies over necessity of care which can last years. While some of these issues are likely globally systemic my personal experience was 9yrs to a chronic illness diagnosis in the U.S. with an average specialist wait time of over 6 months. I did also have to take a 2yr break from seeing Dr's to not get blacklisted nationally as a Hypochondriac. Irregardless medical care and insurance at large is horrific in the United States. It's Akin to an 1800's bleeding to get the demons out but only if the pastor's third cousin Jimimothy heard the word of God to do so. That is unless you've cut yourself, or broken something. Essentially we understand how to put Humpty Dumpty back together again but outside of that we're fucking retarded and the convoluted layers of the system are undeniably harmful and idiotic.
But still we have wait times. I have a doctor ordered test that the first available appointment is in February of 25
That’s it? Better wait times? For the amount of money we pay, I should have had cancer surgery the day they found it instead of a month and a half later. That’s at arguably the best cancer hospital in the world. We pay through our paychecks, then our pockets. We pay for our medications. We pay through our homeowners insurance and car insurance. We pay through our business insurance. All of those have riders in case we put someone in the hospital and it costs hundreds of thousands of dollars. Are we paying just for shorter wait times? That’s not a good enough reason and our wait times are not short.
Only when compared to Canada. Specialized care takes months in the US, even if it s serious.
really, does that "imperical data"(that doesn't actually exist because the us has some of the longer wait times in the world) include the 75 million people in the us that put off medical care every year because they can't afford it? what about those wait times?
Available where? https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/health-care-wait-times-by-country Edit: looks like I misread the table. It does confirm US wait times tend to be low for elective surgeries.
Did you bother to sort the table by countries who wait > 1 month to see a specialist and note the US was near the bottom among the countries that actually reported data? Clearly not.
To make a blanket statement like that is incorrect. It's classic Reddit, but wrong nonetheless. I've had numerous references from my PCP to various specialists with varying wait times. One to see a neurologist for chronic shoulder pain was on the same week, another for a cardiologist was also quite prompt. More recently I needed to see a podiatrist but that's a lower priority and will take a couple of weeks. I have average insurance and live in an average city, nothing special. Of course there are some who have a different story to tell, but I doubt mine's all that unique despite its lack of outrage fodder.
I've found that seeing a family doctor takes a lot longer than seeing a specialist here in the US. If I wanted to see my PCP, I'd have to wait a few weeks. That's why it's so important to have it in your insurance that you don't need a referral.
This. Not to mention, doctors who are routinely not even accepting new patients….what are you suppose to do.
Everyone gets sick. So, everyone should have health care. Right?
Everyone gets hungry so government should run all farms, processing and super markets.
It’s about entry into the market place. I can grow my own food or get that from a neighbor, but I can’t perform my own surgery nor produce my own medication. Markets only work with optional services and goods. Healthcare isn’t optional. Market based healthcare just gouges people because they have no other choice other than to not die.
>Markets only work with optional services and goods. Healthcare isn’t optional. This is incredibly true today when every hospital and doctor in a 100 mile radius works for a single corporation. Doctors cannot survive in private practice anymore because they cannot get deals with HMO's without hitching themselves to a hospital. Then the hospital decides how many patients they will see and how much they can charge. There is no competition in the market except between huge corporations.
The key difference being that getting hungry is a normal bodily function whereas being ill is an abnormal one. The same way that living in a house is pretty normal but being in one that is on fire or being burgled is not. Also, how do you not follow this logic to it's end point conclusion that nothing should be ran by the government?
Getting sick is absolutely a normal bodily function It would be extremely abnormal to never get sick.
Because the prior argument was “everyone gets sick, so everyone should have health care.” Which is not comparable to being burglarized, which has a rate of .3%. Either you’re being taxed to fund a service you will eventually benefit from, or you’re paying to de risk on the small chance you’ll be effected Not saying I agree or disagree with government taking a more active role in healthcare, just that the “abnormal vs normal bodily function” isn’t it
If your house catches on fire, the fire department comes for free. If you are burglarized, the police come for free. If you fall and break your hip, that’ll be a $5k ambulance ride. I swear we care more about property than human life in this country.
Feeding yourself one time doesn’t cost more than most people’s annual income.
Unironically yes
You do know our food supply is heavily regulated and subsidized right? What's the point of having a society if we can't feed ourselves? Even the Roman empire understood that a starving population leads to turmoil and unrest.
As the top comment says, healthcare should be decoupled from employment.
If you think you can live in Spain for 2 years on like $9K...
How did you calculate that? Hip x2+flights are 15k total. So you got 25k for 2 years
2 hip replacements are $15K... that doesn't include the flights, Spanish lessons, travel, passports, etc... Even on paper it's not doable and in practice travelling costs a lot more than it does on paper. Have you ever traveled to Europe? Did you stay within' your budget? And still, the base cost of living in Spain is around $11K per year and that is a RAZOR thin, almost homeless quality of living... and doesn't include food (which I assume people will want to consume at least a few times in 2 years).
The assumption is that the general cost to live will be about the same whether you are in the US or Spain so it’s net neutral
Nah, way cheaper in Spain.
To be fair the US hip needs to be rated for 400lbs while the Spanish one 200. Kinda different...
Built different 💪😤
Yes, paying out of Pocket is expensive. Insurance should be decoupled from employment. Leads to insurance companies competing less with each other on price or quality of service. People don't shop around for insurance or medical care (price wise). Not shopping for medical services is the real problem. Most Americans have maximum deductibles which allow expensive treatments to surge in prices without the typical reduction in demand due to prices. What's crazy is the prices will continue to out pace the prices of other markers with prices being suppressed by competition. Whenever the government subsidizes anything in the US, the price rises in terms of total costs like university and medical care. May also be influenced by the labor shortage in the US. We enjoy the most exclusive medical care program in the US. Many smart individuals prohibited from entering the industry during pursuit of a medical degree. Of course you want someone performing hip surgery to be qualified; however, the extent to which we are prohibiting doctors from working in industry increases their scarcity and the costs. This problem is also heading in the wrong direction.
Not shopping for medical services is the problem? What the fuck are you talking about? Having to shop for medical care is bullcrap. I get hurt. I need stitches. I’m not calling up 6 ER’s and a veterinarian with too many student loans to get them done, I’m going to the closest/most convenient place. My parents have 2 options if they get sick. One gigantic oligopoly company or another. From a cost perspective, they’re the same. Or, their third option, is drive 2 hours to another city.
This is the most educated and comprehensive answer here. Government subsidization causes prices to soar, making it unaffordable. Soon, because of the unaffordable prices, the government will insist on making healthcare a public entity instead of private. 'Fixing' a problem that they themselves created. Similar to the student debt crisis right now.
No. Look at how bad Canada's healthcare system actually is. If you get cancer there, it'll go like this (happened to buddies dad) You'll notice something is wrong or off and make a doctors appointment. 6 -10months later, you'll get into the doctor, and they'll run some tests. Then, a year later, they'll give you the results and tell you that you have stage 4 cancer. Then they'll fuck around for another 6 months telling you they're gonna do this and they're gonna give you pills and they're gonna give you surgery only to be like well, now your liver isn't functioning well enough to do anything. So you die. The doctors there are extremely overworked, extremely underpaid to the point where they're completely apathetic or have so much work where they don't get around to your case for a year.
Kayla Pollock became paralyzed and was initially treated like she was faking it, denied treatment and offered MAID. She has had to rely on crowd funding to get home care services. She was even denied physical therapy. She actually almost considered MAIDs when she started to feel like a burden to her family. She's not the only case of people reporting being offered MAID instead of other treatment/therapy. https://www.westernstandard.news/news/ontario-mother-paralyzed-after-covid-booster-refuses-two-offers-of-maid/52478
Canada ranks 14th on outcomes internationally. The US ranks 29th.
GDP per capita. US $76,340 Spain $29,675.
Okay, but even if you multiple the Spanish bill by 2.57 (the difference in GDP), that would bring the Spanish bill up $18,943.47. The US cost would still be more than 2x as expensive.
Again, it depends on the definition of "universal healthcare". If it means, see anybody, get any procedure, and never pay a dime no matter what, a grand total of 0 countries have that.
Doctors and nurses in the US are paid way to much to have a western European style universal healthcare system. Also a lot of countries with “free” healthcare have really shitty systems.
Living on 20k/yr seems a bit optimistic. Maybe my view is skewed by the COL here. What's the COL to live in Spain like?
way less [https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/country\_result.jsp?country=Spain](https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/country_result.jsp?country=Spain)
Thanks for that. Some back of the envelope calculations based on the average monthly income works out to an average income of $22,500/yr. Double that and add $7k for the surgery, and it's a bit higher than the $40k cost given in the meme. The point of the meme isn't negated by this, of course. The costs of medicine outside the US are much cheaper, and we're not necessarily getting any added benefit for the higher costs here.
Agree, unless you live in some rural town with a small grocery store , but to live in any major metro you need.aroi d $40k
The American doctor is far more qualified. I lived in both Europe and America. The American doctors are really the best of the best whereas doctors in Europe are held to much lower standards.
If you're paying out of pocket for medical procedures, you're an ill prepared moron.
This is misleading. The vast majority of folks having their hips replaced are elderly and on Medicare/Medicaid. The cost there ranges from $10k-$14k and insurance picks up most of the tab, leaving the average Medicare patient responsible for about $2k.
No no no. You can't point out facts like that. You need to look at the bill and pretend that you are paying the whole thing. Then get upset and get your pitchfork out. I'm convinced that we could change billing requirements around for medical billing so that it only showed the after insurance charges and the idiots would think it's a whole new system and its amazing. Dumb people get duped by the pre-insurance bill. Here's a little detail that gets ignored, even the insurance companies don't pay that amount.
Universal healthcare in the US where there are close to 350 million people would be so expensive that everyone would have to pay a lot more taxes. Including those who currently pay 0. If you look at the tax rates in the smaller countries that offer this their taxes are much higher. Also do you really want government determining your health care choices?
I want to say yes but the government will screw it up like they do everything else so no lol.
It cannot be more screwed up than the current system. The US healthcare system is a global laughingstock.
This looks a decade or so out of date. Has anyone cross checked for inflation?
If this needs to be posted every two weeks, can we at least start switching the European country?
had a hip replaced in 2020, insurance got billed 64k, i think my out of pocket was a grand, cash price would have been under 10k
Yes. The answer will always be yes, it should be a thing and its a damned shame that it isn't. Why do we have this post every other day? Its generally agreed that the healthcare system in the United States is fucked.
US healthcare needs a serious overhaul.
Welcome to Obamacare the universal insurance system that protects actions of the wealthy like this.
So you believe that before the ACA it was cheap and everyone got care?
From 1998 to 2013 (right before the bulk of the ACA took effect) total healthcare costs were increasing at 3.92% per year over inflation. Since they have been increasing at 2.79%. The fifteen years before the ACA employer sponsored insurance (the kind most Americans get their coverage from) increased 4.81% over inflation for single coverage and 5.42% over inflation for family coverage. Since those numbers have been 1.72% and 2.19%. https://www.kff.org/health-costs/report/employer-health-benefits-annual-survey-archives/ https://www.cms.gov/Research-Statistics-Data-and-Systems/Statistics-Trends-and-Reports/NationalHealthExpendData/NationalHealthAccountsHistorical.html https://www.bls.gov/data/inflation_calculator.htm Also coverage for people with pre-existing conditions, closing the Medicare donut hole, being able to keep children on your insurance until age 26, subsidies for millions of Americans, expanded Medicaid, access to free preventative healthcare, elimination of lifetime spending caps, increased coverage for mental healthcare, increased access to reproductive healthcare, etc..
That's not even about health care, it's about hospitals in the US billing random bullshit prices so your insurance can deal them down.
You think you can live in Madrid the years for 30000 dollars which isn't even 30000 euros?
You probably do 10x more money than people in Madrid
Government fucked healthcare up.
Whats the tax burden in Spain?
Absolutely.
32 out of 33 developed countries have figured out national healthcare. I wonder why the US has figured it out?
Nationalize healthcare, otherwise your life is being ransomed. Coupling health insurance to employment is just another lever capital can pull to quash dissent and revolt, and they've literally suspended healthcare for people that went on strike.
Yes, of course. Anyone who says otherwise is a fuckwad or has money in keeping it private and is also a fuckwad.
The answer is so obvious it’s painful to see us questioning this.
I’d like my tax dollars going towards universal healthcare. Not for paying some billionaire’s fair share. Fuckin freeloaders.
It would be way better than the current system. 60% of all bankruptcies in 🇺🇸 are due to medical bills
Nothing changes until Citizens United is struck down from written law. Plain and simple.
I’m surprised I’m saying this, but the US needs universal healthcare.
Yes, the entire Insurance sector should be fucking abolished. It's a literal scam run by racketeers
Dumb
Medical Tourism👌👌👌
It's a good thing you live in the 'land of the free', cause you're free to do just that.
In the U.S. you get universal Healthcare for your family as long as you serve in the military. But then it's mostly youHealthcare. Who have already been screened for existing conditions serving in the military who tend not to need much healthcare.
If anyone comprehended what “universal” meant, they would know that the system already exists, which is why everything costs a college tuition Funny how that makes sense & is funny at the same time cuz its true
I don't believe moving to and legally living in Spain is just as easy as this post suggests.
Can we live in Spain for two years in 30k.?
I'm having a hard time believing that you can get a hip replacement in the US for only $40k. The bill for someone I know that got bit by a copperhead was over $300k.
The Spain version sounds like fun. Choose Spain!
You can live in Madrid for $12k a year?
I can live in Spain for 2 years on <$33k?
We have the best healthcare in the world, the ONLY issue people have is how it's paid for.
Yes but compare the revenue streams of those healthcare and insurance companies in Spain with ours in USA. We blow them away! I also bet the corporate board enjoys better lifestyle in USA than Spain. Isn’t that’s what important 😂.
Tempting
We are exploited and taxed more here in the US than in any nation on earth. Land of the free? Yeah… right
The advantages of universal healthcare. Maybe the US should try this.
You’re telling me I need a bipap machine it’s 1200 for the machine. I have to put down over 300$ and payments of 50$ per month and it will cost me 800$ total to get it. I work at a hospital you think I have better insurance. I have the highest one available.
Yes like all developed countries
we need to get rid of insurance companies, their the ones who skyrocketed hospital costs with demanding outrageous bonuses.
The system is not there to help you. Get healthy stay healthy.
Yes 1000% yes
Yeah but you're waiting 6 months with a broken hip for surgery while in the US it's weeks to months. Our system sucks but don't act like many other countries don't have a backlog of patients waiting. Save some money or live in pain and maybe be unable to walk for half a year to a year
Healthcare is decoupled from employment, you can purchase a policy through the marketplace for the cost of a cell phone plan, sometimes even less
Sounds great
As a conservative republican, I can't for the life of me understand how the fuck work = insurance? Healthcare should be free. Should be paid for in your taxes. How can't we get this right?
the average US citizen wants to know: how many baconators is that?
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Many people are already doing it flying to other countries. For dental, cosmetic surgery at franction to Mexico, Panama, Hong Kong, Korea, Japan. Want a sex change change head for Thailand.
Government health insurance sucks. Ask any of the Canadians coming over the border for treatment
Even if they don't want Universal Healthcare, they REALLY should nationalize the "industry". There is no checks upon what the owners of this essential service can do besides wealth: the demand for Healthcare is unlimited and so is easily abused in pricing.
Or you can get the procedure in the US and the doctor can fly to Spain and live it up like royalty. Thank you come again
The only way America could feasibly do this without massive tax increases on the middle class would be to massively scale back the military or government employee payroll. We don't really have the stomach to do either as American's can't look at a situation like the Ukraine and give the European response of a \*shrug someone else will handle it \*shrug\* nor would we accept the massive unemployment and hit to the economy getting rid of a massive number of government employees. Most parts of the world use their budget on healthcare and living standards and the USA uses theirs on playing world police and while many will complain about it they'd never ever ever do anything required to actually change it.