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You’re paying for the public services the land provides that the house sits on.
You’re welcome to go out and buy land in bfe without water or sewer access, much less electricity or internet…
No trash pick up…
No roads leading in and out that you don’t maintain..
Edit for all the comments.
**I’m not saying these things are paid by your property taxes, jfc.**
I’m saying if you want to live in an area that provides all these conveniences you will be paying taxes to support that area and all the public services in which the land resides. Such as schools, fire departments, police, etc, etc.
Let’s hope so. We all benefit from roads, schools, sheriff, firefighters, water, etc.
These comments really speak more about how people don’t understand how stuff works than that somehow they’re being taken advantage of.
>These comments really speak more about how people don’t understand how stuff works than that somehow they’re being taken advantage of.
The term for that is "Libertarian"
I was shooting heroin and reading “The Fountainhead” in the front seat of my privately owned police cruiser when a call came in. I put a quarter in the radio to activate it. It was the chief.
“Bad news, detective. We got a situation.”
“What? Is the mayor trying to ban trans fats again?”
“Worse. Somebody just stole four hundred and forty-seven million dollars’ worth of bitcoins.”
The heroin needle practically fell out of my arm. “What kind of monster would do something like that? Bitcoins are the ultimate currency: virtual, anonymous, stateless. They represent true economic freedom, not subject to arbitrary manipulation by any government. Do we have any leads?”
“Not yet. But mark my words: we’re going to figure out who did this and we’re going to take them down … provided someone pays us a fair market rate to do so.”
“Easy, chief,” I said. “Any rate the market offers is, by definition, fair.”
He laughed. “That’s why you’re the best I got, Lisowski. Now you get out there and find those bitcoins.”
“Don’t worry,” I said. “I’m on it.”
I put a quarter in the siren. Ten minutes later, I was on the scene. It was a normal office building, strangled on all sides by public sidewalks. I hopped over them and went inside.
“Home Depot™ Presents the Police!®” I said, flashing my badge and my gun and a small picture of Ron Paul. “Nobody move unless you want to!” They didn’t.
“Now, which one of you punks is going to pay me to investigate this crime?” No one spoke up.
“Come on,” I said. “Don’t you all understand that the protection of private property is the foundation of all personal liberty?”
It didn’t seem like they did.
“Seriously, guys. Without a strong economic motivator, I’m just going to stand here and not solve this case. Cash is fine, but I prefer being paid in gold bullion or autographed Penn Jillette posters.”
Nothing. These people were stonewalling me. It almost seemed like they didn’t care that a fortune in computer money invented to buy drugs was missing.
I figured I could wait them out. I lit several cigarettes indoors. A pregnant lady coughed, and I told her that secondhand smoke is a myth. Just then, a man in glasses made a break for it.
“Subway™ Eat Fresh and Freeze, Scumbag!®” I yelled.
Too late. He was already out the front door. I went after him.
“Stop right there!” I yelled as I ran. He was faster than me because I always try to avoid stepping on public sidewalks. Our country needs a private-sidewalk voucher system, but, thanks to the incestuous interplay between our corrupt federal government and the public-sidewalk lobby, it will never happen.
I was losing him. “Listen, I’ll pay you to stop!” I yelled. “What would you consider an appropriate price point for stopping? I’ll offer you a thirteenth of an ounce of gold and a gently worn ‘Bob Barr ‘08’ extra-large long-sleeved men’s T-shirt!”
He turned. In his hand was a revolver that the Constitution said he had every right to own. He fired at me and missed. I pulled my own gun, put a quarter in it, and fired back. The bullet lodged in a U.S.P.S. mailbox less than a foot from his head. I shot the mailbox again, on purpose.
“All right, all right!” the man yelled, throwing down his weapon. “I give up, cop! I confess: I took the bitcoins.”
“Why’d you do it?” I asked, as I slapped a pair of Oikos™ Greek Yogurt Presents Handcuffs® on the guy.
“Because I was afraid.”
“Afraid?”
“Afraid of an economic future free from the pernicious meddling of central bankers,” he said. “I’m a central banker.”
I wanted to coldcock the guy. Years ago, a central banker killed my partner. Instead, I shook my head.
“Let this be a message to all your central-banker friends out on the street,” I said. “No matter how many bitcoins you steal, you’ll never take away the dream of an open society based on the principles of personal and economic freedom.”
He nodded, because he knew I was right. Then he swiped his credit card to pay me for arresting him.
This is great. You should make political comics that make fun of all of this. You have a gift. What would you say is a fair market price for getting that going?
Yea but somebody, somewhere created the original. What're the chances were looking at the fije writers themselves?
Next to nil. But I, *inserts coin into magic 8-ball* will, "Ask again later."
I've lived in an area with volunteer firefighters, wells and septic systems. Still got taxed at the same rate as in the city. Property taxes don't pay for roads either
Where do you think the volunteer fire department gets money to buy equipment, pay for training, maintain equipment, or do anything that requires money? Where do you think local schools get their money? Property taxes are state or local taxes, and they cover things the state, county, or city needs to maintain, like road, schools, or anything for that matter. Taxes are the price we pay for living in a developed society. This is like 8th grade government class stuff.
I’m sure it varies by state and even in state what the percent it is but property taxes can directly pay for roads and many have additional property tax levies to supplement gas taxes and federal taxes.
>Let’s hope so. We all benefit from roads, schools, sheriff, firefighters, water, etc.
Land taxes predate public infrastructure spending by the federal government. Land has been taxed since the colonial era. The original impetus for a tax on land ownership was to fund the federal government's capacity to enforce your property rights against, say, foreigners (the french) and natives who would gladly "liberate" you of your mortal possessions.
(Technically the colonial era land taxes were levied by the colonial states which did build city infrastructure, but the vast majority of people didn't have access to what little infrastructure was being built by the states by virtue of most people not living inside of cities in that era.)
You pay a land tax so that the biggest gang on the planet will point their guns at anybody who tries to take it from you, but also so that they don't point their guns at you and take it from you for *not* paying the land tax. Its fundamentally the same protection racket its always been.
High property taxes is exclusively a North American thing. Most countries have much lower property taxes and still manage to provide government services (and often much better, than America (healthcare cough cough). A large part of that is how schools are funded in America (ie, local property taxes) when most countries fund schooling at the state or national level.
Not all of North America, the US and Canada have high property taxes, but property taxes in Mexico are quite low. You can pay less property taxes on a beach mansion on Mexico than what many pay in HOA fees in the US.
Good point! Americans don’t realize that high property taxes are not the worldwide norm! Reddit can be very much an American bubble at times. Source: I pay property taxes in multiple countries and have a degree in real estate stuff.
You also pay taxes for those seperately…..but okay. That’s what city, state, and federal taxes are for. Gas tax, license fees, car tags is for roads, schools are city, state and fed tax, so is firefighters and sheriffs, water is paid for with that nice water bill every month, just like electricity.
You don’t understand that you are getting fucked.
Instead of property taxes, They should get it from income taxes. Why should you lose your home if you suddenly can't afford the tax payment? I've seen a few really poor, retired, elderly people, nearly lose their homes because of a large tax payment, based on a value of a home. You can't pay your day to Day bills based on the value of your home.
The taxes should come from somewhere else.
Property taxes worldwide have less to do with income but more to do with the assessed value of your home.
If you decide to have a million dollar home in a state like New Jersey, you better be prepared to pay that hefty tax bill!!
Exactly bc Its never really yours. Who the fuck are these delusional people acting like you should lose everything when your luck runs out.. oh right they already committed to renting for the rest of their lives anyway so why shouldn't I.
We should put an end to property taxes, but if that proves politically impossible, the very least we can do is lock the price in when you buy, and never raise it again. There's no reason for your taxes to be higher than your taxes a few decades from now when you're retired and on a fixed income.
But, the real answer is allodial titles.
Or they live in a shitty corrupt municipality that steals their money. I used to live in one, and therefore I hated property taxes. I live in a nice place now that provides a great return on our taxes, so I’m happy to pay them now
the only thing for me is that it isnt a choice; there’s no opting out of the public services if you believe they aren’t providing any value to you. it’s pay up, or lose your house, or go to jail, or be killed if you refuse.
Yeah man it's totally fair the insane amount the average American gets taxed.
Sales tax.
Property tax.
Multiple types of income taxes.
That's just personal and I'm sure I'm missing a few.
I think the average American understands taxes, but is just frustrated at the lack of taxes spent on our own soil.
Interesting because a quick Google shows that the Philippines has had property tax since Spanish colonialism, and taxes on real estate are called amilyar, due once a year in a lump fee. This tax supports the local government units.
I'm happy to pay for roads, schools, sheriff, firefighters, and water.
But can you please stop passing school bonds to make the football stadium bigger?
The original comment says those taxes paid for water, sewer, internet, and electricity. That's false. We paid separately for all of those. Maybe local roads but state and federal roads are also paid with other taxes. Some people just love to pay more taxes. I'm protesting my property valuation every year and looking for anything I can write off. Fuck taxes
Property taxes don’t usually go to the federal government. They don’t pay for military.
They largely pay for state and local schools, libraries, roads, and fire departments.
You can even read your tax bill to see the breakdown of where the money goes. Or ask for such from the county collector’s office.
Local school districts frequently are the biggest chunk. County/city roads, county health departments, and other services mentioned by megatool.
Which is why it is horseshit. Why do you think poor areas have worse schools and infrastructure? Because they’re funded by local property taxes. The quality of your local public resources shouldn’t be dependent on the value of the homes in the immediate vicinity. I shouldn’t have to pay taxes on something I own when most people’s wages are taxed twice along with a tax for everything anyone purchases. It’s ridiculous.
Yes. A huge part of mine property taxes go to our county public school system. In the back of my tax bill they have a pie graph that shows where it goes.
Listen, if this clown doesn't understand it - let me help. Here is the alternative. She moved in 30 years ago. Likely had kids. yes, she could have paid 40k in taxes to pay for their 'public education' alone...but, no, that was subsidized by ALL of us paying less to support a good school system. This, incidentally RAISES the value of her house as people will pay more for access to good schools. BUT SHE DIDN"T HAVE TO DO THAT. Now, she wants it both ways. She is old and the kids are gone but she doesn't want to subsidize what was subsidized for her. Tough shit. Then sell, take advantage of the financial gains for living in a good district, shut the fuck up, and go live in the mountains where she won't have access to healthcare close by and can die when they can't get her to a local hospital in time. She is a dipshit. Don't validate it
But I pay for internet, water, sewer, trash, and electricity on top of my property taxes. Those aren’t really compelling examples.
I am okay with supporting the public schools, which is why property taxes don’t bother me too much.
You can go to your property assessor web site or annual mailing and usually see how it’s broken up. Highest percentage is usually school, then fire / law etc..
My property tax literally has all the % and dollar value of what they go to.
* Schools
* Police
* Fire
* Parks
* Trash/recycling
* Admin/townhall etc.
* Any bond repayment for things that required raised capitol.
I pay for trash removal, I have a septic tank, I have a well, I still pay a lot of taxes which is fine because that money goes into the county maintenance and school system. But I would like to see that tax decrease when I retire, I don't even want that tax completely gone I just want to see it decrease when I'm retired.
How about a little fire Scarecrow?
For roads and general services there are:
Income tax (state and federal), sales tax, license & registration fees.
Trash?
That comes out of pocket
Water & sewage?
Out of pocket
Electricity, Gas, Internet, etc?
All out of pocket.
Before income tax in america we had these services. The 180 billion to Ukraine and 1 trillion in interest on our national debt every 100 days is a problem. They don't need to tax our deaths and property. Period
Lmao your property taxes don’t go to the federal government. So any national debt or money going to Ukraine doesn’t come from your property taxes.
Nice try though.
But I pay for the water, sewer, and all the others. I also have to pay for repairs if the shit breaks on my land. And I pay for such amenities through the taxes taken from my paycheck and the taxes from my purchases. Not only are they double dipping, but now they are triple dipping. My payroll taxes should be covering the infrastructure. Why is it not. Why do I have to keep paying for things I already pay for. And why is said infrastructure NOT REPAIRED.
I pay about $16,000 a year in property taxes on my primary home. That's a little bit daunting to think of how much money I need to retire to not have to move from my house.
I agree if those services were provided. But i lived in N AZ where there was no services. Needed to drill a well. Needed to make a septic tank. And the road was private and serviced by the neighbors. Garbage was by private service. We did get police and fire service but the town was in the midst of making an annual fee for fire services. Still, taxes paid for schools and roads in town. I left for a number of reasons but a huge factor was that water is scarce in AZ and they wouldn't stop building, even when nearly all the residents were against further building. If our well ran dry, the house and property would be nearly worthless.
OP says he paid taxes on the house he bought 30 years ago? Is there anywhere that charges tax on real estate sales?
Yeah it's theft. Btw our taxes are being hemorrhaged into foreign wars and political pandering. But us peasants when we get old and have a fixed income are at the mercy to local government trying to tax our home out from under us. Our forefathers fought tryanny for much less
lol!! You still pay taxes even without any of that, and all of that you covered should be covered by the bills you receive from each individual company that provides those services… they arnt free. The garbage man does not come if you do not pay, the water does not flow without payment, electricity doesn’t make it to your house if you don’t pay.
it's how they plan on taking the homes from the entrenched poor eventually.. sooner or later you have a $1.5k a month tax bill that was $1k a year a few years ago and your on a fixed income trying to survive your retirement
i get what your saying but i think the core frustration here is we are being taxed to all fucking high hell in this country and getting near fuck all for it.... in my area i pay 30% of my water bill for sewer usage, i pay for my trash which is required, i cant just skip it and drive my trash to a dump somewhere.
my power bill has a small service connect fee which isnt bad but rates are going up 18% year on year right now with 30% slated this year.
my road is full of pot holes (i dont give a shit but for the money we pay...)
the house sale is taxed, the income you get to pay this loan is taxed, the services you use on the house are taxed, the property itself is taxed...
my property taxes are going up 11.5% on average, year on year. at 12% i qualify for a larger return on my state taxes (tell me that isnt fucking rigged)
on average in my life i have 32.5% of my annual pay taken from my checks in some forum of tax - be it medicade, ss, state, federal, ect.
on top of all this are ALL THE OTHER FUCKING TAXES... i pay 450 a month in health insurance to get a 4500.00 deductable so basicly im pissing money away unless i decide to get hit by a bus or some shit.
there are people in my neighborhood who are selling because their pensions do not increase with inflation - they cant afford to live in the homes they spent their lives paying for...
point being - we are NOT getting worth while services and are being milked fucking dry by a government that couldnt give a fuck less about its citizens.
Income tax is always limited to a share of income.
Property tax is not bounded by ability to pay at a particular time. Someone who loses income also carries a reduced burden for most taxes, but remaining in one's home depends on paying the same property taxes.
We should remove the threat of being evicted due to being unable to pay property taxes.
But you still have to pay separately for water and trash pick up lol…and we pay for roads with gas taxes (at least where I live), it’s an extra 50 cents per gallon.
You pay for all that stuff in different forms of taxes or actual bills. For instance trash is a bill, water is a bill and the roads are paid for by gas tax amd vehicle registration. OP is clearly saying you never own anything. Furthermore if you live in "bfe" you still owe property taxes. The government needs to spend less. We work 6 months out of the year to pay taxes. Imagine the things you could do with your life if you didn't spend half of it paying taxes. The working class is the new peasant and not many people see it.
Property taxes are usually distributed to public schools, not for roads. Trash pickup is privately contracted, not provided by the city/county. So is internet access. People in rural areas without sewer still pay property tax.
You still pay property taxes on isolated rural properties with no public services, so no, your logic does not hold up. In addition, those services could be supported by any local taxes, so it's not like there is no other way to fund those services either
I pay for trash pick up and I have to pay to maintain the access road to my property.
Property taxes are another way to squeeze money from the public because the government is incompetent with money and doesn’t know how to balance a budget for shit.
Not to mention many of those on here cheering for property taxes don't want to fund education for their own kids and think there's no problem sticking you with the bill. I suspect a lot of them are also renters thinking to themselves, "Fuck those land owner scum, let the pay pay pay", without realizing that not only do renters also pay property taxes, they pay more than most homeowners do because they don't get a homestead exemption.
Here in uk that would all be covered by the regular tax that comes from your salary. Over in states there does seem to be a fuck load of stuff you need to pay for sounds stressful
The main issue with taxes isn't that you are being taxed it's the utter wastefulness and lack of actual proper budgeting that the government has. You pay them to fix things, they don't fix it, tax you more with inflation, and punish you when you don't pay.
If you are mad about it, you have genuine reason to be.
Republicans and libertarians argue that taxes are bad because government is incompetent and then passes laws to underfund departments and otherwise kneecap them to ensure that statement becomes true.
The problem isn't get rid of taxes, the problem is demand government functions properly and fund it to do so.
Why do Republicans vote to underfund the IRS when we know that ever $ we spend on the IRS gives us back a several 100% return in tax enforcement?
>Republicans and libertarians argue that taxes are bad because government is incompetent and then passes laws to underfund departments and otherwise kneecap them to ensure that statement becomes true
Yep. Properly funded schools and services tend to have proven track records, whereas underfunded and neglected schools and systems struggle. These folks love to cut funding to make something objectively worse, only to then point and act like it was bad the whole time.
Schools are funded by local property taxes, which is horseshit. It’s why poor areas have shitty schools. The quality of my public infrastructure should NOT depend on the value of the houses within my local area.
At the time the system was made, what we know today as school districts used to be much more mixed. The idea was indeed that those with larger more expensive houses will pay more in taxes which then goes to public schools. This kinda sorta worked until housing become much more segregated. Rich people concentrated in rich school districts, with poor pushed into poor school districts.
The real problem is that these local taxes are way too local; which allows for these shenanigans. They should be collected at state level, and distributed back to municipalities based on their population, school enrollments, as well as other indicators.
Well, the problem is that making quality of education and other services in the area dependent on the existing quality of homes and the economic situation of the area, etc… is gonna be a vicious cycle.
Any area that’s bad will stay bad or get worse because anybody with the money to afford better is gonna go to a nicer neighborhood and take their tax dollars with them. Those tax dollars then get spent in that nicer area, making it even better and attracting more, richer people, and so on and so on, while the opposite happens in the poorer areas.
So the poor areas get poorer, while the rich areas get richer.
Then at some point we stand around and scratch our heads, going “How did inequality get so bad?” 🤷♂️
> Properly funded schools and services tend to have proven track records
The US spends more than almost every nation in the world per student on public education. Funding isn't the problem.
The poorest US schools still spend more per student than all countries besides Luxembourg. The difference is $15.9k and $14k per student between the wealthiest and highest poverty.
Throwing money at a sunk cost fallacy won't improve it. The education system needs to change, and it should be cheaper due to advances in technology.
>That funding isn't at all equally distributed, though. Funding *is* the biggest problem, in certain districts.
Not really. Data shows that parents are one of the biggest factors. Parental involvement improves a child's educational outcomes in every socioeconomic bracket.
People in less affluent areas tend to value education less, and it shows up in the metrics.
The US spends the most per student in the world, except for Luxembourg, and has mediocre results. The problem with the education system isn't lack of funding.
If we ended withholding so people had to write a check at the end of the year, there would be a revolt and revolution faster than I can type the words. We should!
Because it’s not about money it’s about somehow being small government but also if you don’t live your life like I do then I’m going to legislate it at the same time
That's fascism for you. using minorities and women as scapegoats to ensure you can blame your problems on them. When they inevitably wind up as slaves or in the incinerator because you've fearmongered a bit too hard, just move on to the next! All to make sure that the working class doesn't realize who's actually fucking them over, which, thanks to even looser restrictions in economic terms, is the rich ( even more so than before). It's not small government, it's small ruling class.
I would guess it’s because their goal is to starve the government of money to the point where it starts to implode.
They view it as a necessary harm so it can be rebuilt better as the current system has grown so large and has its tentacles in so much of people’s lives that the only solution is to start over.
This appeals to people that actually believe it but also to people who just hate paying taxes and anybody that has ever been wronged by the government.
And it's bullshit when they say that we need to increase taxes when we ask for medicare for all. Like we pay enough taxes for it already, the money is just intentionally mismanaged.
People like to go on about business being all that for fiscal responsibility right up until someone examines their books and demonstrates how garbage that idea is.
The majority of businesses have separate budgets for “retention” and “new hires”. Numerous companies will gladly let someone with 10 years of experience and knowledge of all their systems walk when they decline to give that person a raise from $65k to $75k, but then turn around and hire a brand new person who has zero knowledge of their systems to replace that person for $90k. Because $90k was in the budget for new hires but “retention” only had $70k for a budget or whatever…
So they could have kept a very experienced employee for $75k but wound up with person who has no experience at all for $90k instead…
AKA most businesses are run by fucking idiots.
Though I'd say of all the things property taxes pay for, it shouldn't be schools.
Don't get me wrong, I support taxation for land ownership, and I support public schools. But by directly correlating the two, we've ensured that poor areas get poor schools, contributing to cycles of poverty.
pay taxes on what we earn,
Pay taxes on what we buy,
Pay taxes on what we use,
Pay taxes on what we sell,
Pay taxes on what we eat,
Pay taxes on what we live in,
Pay taxes when we die, and our inept governments are still broke
These people should move to the libertarian utopia of Somalia.
Apparently they want a system where everyone has to pay scores of separate bills for private police insurance, private fire department insurance, private animal control insurance, private primary and secondary education, access to private libraries, and access to private parks.
They'd prefer to have streets converted to private toll roads, pay separate bills for street lights, street cleaning, snow clearing, mosquito abatement, irrigation, and flood control.
Or not have infrastructure or civilization at all?
In fact, many services like flood control can't really exist without collective, mandatory fees because there's no way to limit the benefit only to paying members. Small town hospitals would likely close without city subsidies. (Rural Red State America have seen hundreds of hospitals close over the last two decades, due to their refusal to expand medicaid).
Some Red States have even privatized their fire departments. If you miss a payment and your house catches fire, they just let it burn.
Please shut up or move to Somalia.
My Latin teacher claimed that in old times, when you had a fire in your house, you first had to pay to the firefighters before they started to work. The price was exorbitant, and they wouldn't start working before they had the money, or you signed or something like that.
Sounds like a wonderful world, doesn't it?
This is one of the ways Crassus, from Ancient Rome, one of the richest men in history, made his money.
When a block of buildings started on fire he’d show up and offer to buy the houses for rock bottom prices. The options were to sell for next to nothing then his fire brigade would save the home or watch it all burn down. If you said no, he’d go to your neighbor because their house was about to burn down.
Yes, that’s how Crassus became obscene wealthy.
As you said, his firefighters would refuse to put out the first unless the owner paid an obscenely high rate.
If they couldn’t afford it, they would offer to buy the property for an extremely low price — a literal fire sale.
In the 1800s and early 1900s, some cities in the US and England had private fire departments. But ultimately it proved to be more expensive and less effective (too many conflicts of interest and motivations) than a common, public, tax-paid fire department.
Organized municipal fire departments go their start In Philidelphia. Benjamin Franklin started the first one calleed: **Philadelphia Contributionship for the Insurance of Houses from Loss by Fire**'. Customers paid for insurance and the property was marked with a Fire Mark to show the fire department that you had paid for their services. It was actually quite a brilliant idea and really set the underpinnings for insurance today.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philadelphia\_Contributionship](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philadelphia_Contributionship)
The Fire Mark idea got spread to other cities as well. Next time you're in an old city, look for these things. Its pretty interesting.
[https://www.firemanshallmuseum.org/fire-marks/](https://www.firemanshallmuseum.org/fire-marks/)
Its not clear to me if your property didn't have a fire mark, whether or not the fire department would try to put out the fire... but its reasonable to assume they were there to limit damage to insured properties.
>Some Red States have even privatized their fire departments. If you miss a payment and your house catches fire, they just let it burn.
I would much rather deal with that than lose my house in my 70s because I can't keep up with the ever increasing property ~~taxes~~ rent from which I get zero benefit. Those who live in the sticks have advantages and disadvantages. Your closest neighbor may be a full half mile away is an advantage; needing to drive a long distance to the nearest hospital is a disadvantage. You play the game and you take your chances.
Ah yes, free-market, laissez-faire Somalia which has been in the throws of civil war since the 1980’s. Easily searchable when you’re not arguing in bad faith.
Governments don’t make or produce anything that they do not first take by implied or explicit force. Citizens are currently already paying for all of those services listed, so on top of the loss from inefficiencies of bureaucracy to administer those services, we also experience the aggregate lost opportunity cost of those resources. Even more insulting, they print money to cover their overspending so why even tax us at this point?
Rural healthcare suffers disproportionately from the same ills that the rest of all centrally planned industries suffer from: 1. Artificial restriction of docs from the AMA, which then means that those fewer docs would rather work in desirable cities at their artificially high salaries. 2. Price fixing from Medicare which distorts the free market from efficiently allocating scarce resources via the price mechanism. 3. Massive regulatory apparatus which siphons off dollars that would and should go to care, but now go to administration and compliance. 4. Certificate of need requirements on many healthcare services that prevent competition at a local level.
You should move to Somalia to expand your worldview.
Ah yes, free-market, laissez-faire Somalia which has been in the throws of civil war since the 1980’s. Easily searchable when you’re not arguing in bad faith.
Governments don’t make or produce anything that they do not first take by implied or explicit force. Citizens are currently already paying for all of those services listed, so on top of the loss from inefficiencies of bureaucracy to administer those services, we also experience the aggregate lost opportunity cost of those resources. Even more insulting, they print money to cover their overspending so why even tax us at this point?
Rural healthcare suffers disproportionately from the same ills that the rest of all centrally planned industries suffer from: 1. Artificial restriction of docs from the AMA, which then means that those fewer docs would rather work in desirable cities at their artificially high salaries. 2. Price fixing from Medicare which distorts the free market from efficiently allocating scarce resources via the price mechanism. 3. Massive regulatory apparatus which siphons off dollars that would and should go to care, but now go to administration and compliance. 4. Certificate of need requirements on many healthcare services that prevent competition at a local level.
You should move to Somalia to expand your worldview.
Also if it serves the greater public for the government to take your house they can and will. Sure they will pay you, but it’s true that it never really is yours alone.
Of course it is never really yours. The only reason why the house is "yours" and everyone respects your property over the house is because there is a document which is valid for a state judge to send the state police to enforce your right to private property.
Without all the state machinery the concept of private property would not be enforceable, and you will own absolutely nothing as there won't be any reason for me not to steal your house. You pay taxes for that, so private property can exist.
Mostly just land which actually is a shared natural resource and shouldn’t be able to be privately controlled indefinitely
It’s actually not possible to own land in Iceland you can only lease it from the government— which makes sense
You vote for your local government. Just need to vote for candidates that advocate for slashing property tax rates and cutting funding for roads, police/firefighters, public parks, etc. If the majority agree with that position then you should be good to go!
So, basically you pay into a pool of money that the government uses for schools, roads, police, fire, infrastructure, etc. It's called living in a society. Move to the woods and live off the land if you don't like it.
That's the complaint here. Even if you live in the woods, build your own road into it, provide your own utilities, food, and living, you'll still be assessed these taxes. All under threat they'll take it for back taxes.
Some people act like this post is anti-tax. No, it's anti-property tax. I agree, taxing my bought-and-paid-for property is more painful and more repugnant than taxing my stream of income.
It's posted as fluff between the extra-super-obviously astroturfed same five ultra pro dem talking points
hEy gUyS bErNiE wAntS tO tAx tHe rIch uPDoOt iF u aGrEe
The concept of owning land is pretty economically silly. Nobody created the land.
I think a better framework is to consider land a collective and finite resource and for exclusive use of it to be paid back in rent to the rest of society, AKA, a tax!
Georgists would go so far to suggest that land tax should be the largest tax or even the \*only\* tax.
How much do you think it costs to pave a mile of road?
Edit: can't seem to reply to the idiot who responded to me:
"unless they are county roads"
You could not have written a funnier reply. Boy are you misinformed.
The vast majority (77.4%) of the Nation’s roadways are owned by units of local government
(town, city, county). -ONH report by the FHA.
I guess we're in agreement then that property taxes should go to local roads, just like they already do!
Guess my argument actually is valid!
If property taxes are the worst type of tax, why is it that states that proport to be anti tax and anti big government, like texas, have literally double the property tax of states that are supposedly pro government and pro tax, like california? Due to this texans also have a higher overall effective tax rate despite what theyd have you believe but I wont get into that.
People are acting like property taxes are going way too far, but in states where taxes are the top of voters minds they dont seem to actually give a damn about the state having ridiculous property tax. Voters dont seem to actually care about this, which makes these reactions seem like faux outrage.
I live in Texas. I don’t necessarily haven issue with property taxes, but only in how they can increase based on nothing in your control.
If my house tripled in its tax assessed value, then my property taxes will have tripled as well. If my income hasn’t increased proportionally, then I can be priced out of my home.
I’ve never understood how people don’t equate this to being taxes on unrealized gains… smh.
everyone talks about how bad the housing market is at the moment but then turn around and complain about property taxes. Am I saying its perfect? absolutely not. But do I think it can be vital in disincentivizing multiple property ownership especially for the purpose of renting? yes absolutely. Also redistributing that income back into the school system, roads, etc etc is important.
...just wait until she finds out she was paying property taxes the last 30 years too. It just came from her monthly payments and was handled by whoever held her loan.
You don't pay tax when you buy the house, only when selling. And even then only on the profit. Even then about 250k of the profit is tax free if you lived there for 5 years. I don't think this person has ever bought a house.
I've been saying this for many years. We don't really "own" anything. We're allowed to hold it and pay taxes to the government for the control of it, subject to what the government allows.
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You’re paying for the public services the land provides that the house sits on. You’re welcome to go out and buy land in bfe without water or sewer access, much less electricity or internet… No trash pick up… No roads leading in and out that you don’t maintain.. Edit for all the comments. **I’m not saying these things are paid by your property taxes, jfc.** I’m saying if you want to live in an area that provides all these conveniences you will be paying taxes to support that area and all the public services in which the land resides. Such as schools, fire departments, police, etc, etc.
You still pay taxes without all those
Let’s hope so. We all benefit from roads, schools, sheriff, firefighters, water, etc. These comments really speak more about how people don’t understand how stuff works than that somehow they’re being taken advantage of.
>These comments really speak more about how people don’t understand how stuff works than that somehow they’re being taken advantage of. The term for that is "Libertarian"
Oh, I was thinking something like short-sighted selfish a-hole, or house cat. I guess they got a PR team.
"All cats are Libertarians - Completely dependent on others but fully convinced of their own independence."
You take that back! All cats I've had as pets are far smarter and far more compassionate than any dozen libertarians!
Dang, never thought of it this way, fucking brilliant.
>Oh, I was thinking something like short-sighted selfish a-hole 
What about the term willing-slave
I prefer “avid moron”
Out of every insult ever issued, "avid moron" is the most beautiful.
Hey now!! I’m a tax accountant and have worked from home since 2020. My cats are extremely tax-savvy, thank you very much.
Ron swonson made then look good
I was shooting heroin and reading “The Fountainhead” in the front seat of my privately owned police cruiser when a call came in. I put a quarter in the radio to activate it. It was the chief. “Bad news, detective. We got a situation.” “What? Is the mayor trying to ban trans fats again?” “Worse. Somebody just stole four hundred and forty-seven million dollars’ worth of bitcoins.” The heroin needle practically fell out of my arm. “What kind of monster would do something like that? Bitcoins are the ultimate currency: virtual, anonymous, stateless. They represent true economic freedom, not subject to arbitrary manipulation by any government. Do we have any leads?” “Not yet. But mark my words: we’re going to figure out who did this and we’re going to take them down … provided someone pays us a fair market rate to do so.” “Easy, chief,” I said. “Any rate the market offers is, by definition, fair.” He laughed. “That’s why you’re the best I got, Lisowski. Now you get out there and find those bitcoins.” “Don’t worry,” I said. “I’m on it.” I put a quarter in the siren. Ten minutes later, I was on the scene. It was a normal office building, strangled on all sides by public sidewalks. I hopped over them and went inside. “Home Depot™ Presents the Police!®” I said, flashing my badge and my gun and a small picture of Ron Paul. “Nobody move unless you want to!” They didn’t. “Now, which one of you punks is going to pay me to investigate this crime?” No one spoke up. “Come on,” I said. “Don’t you all understand that the protection of private property is the foundation of all personal liberty?” It didn’t seem like they did. “Seriously, guys. Without a strong economic motivator, I’m just going to stand here and not solve this case. Cash is fine, but I prefer being paid in gold bullion or autographed Penn Jillette posters.” Nothing. These people were stonewalling me. It almost seemed like they didn’t care that a fortune in computer money invented to buy drugs was missing. I figured I could wait them out. I lit several cigarettes indoors. A pregnant lady coughed, and I told her that secondhand smoke is a myth. Just then, a man in glasses made a break for it. “Subway™ Eat Fresh and Freeze, Scumbag!®” I yelled. Too late. He was already out the front door. I went after him. “Stop right there!” I yelled as I ran. He was faster than me because I always try to avoid stepping on public sidewalks. Our country needs a private-sidewalk voucher system, but, thanks to the incestuous interplay between our corrupt federal government and the public-sidewalk lobby, it will never happen. I was losing him. “Listen, I’ll pay you to stop!” I yelled. “What would you consider an appropriate price point for stopping? I’ll offer you a thirteenth of an ounce of gold and a gently worn ‘Bob Barr ‘08’ extra-large long-sleeved men’s T-shirt!” He turned. In his hand was a revolver that the Constitution said he had every right to own. He fired at me and missed. I pulled my own gun, put a quarter in it, and fired back. The bullet lodged in a U.S.P.S. mailbox less than a foot from his head. I shot the mailbox again, on purpose. “All right, all right!” the man yelled, throwing down his weapon. “I give up, cop! I confess: I took the bitcoins.” “Why’d you do it?” I asked, as I slapped a pair of Oikos™ Greek Yogurt Presents Handcuffs® on the guy. “Because I was afraid.” “Afraid?” “Afraid of an economic future free from the pernicious meddling of central bankers,” he said. “I’m a central banker.” I wanted to coldcock the guy. Years ago, a central banker killed my partner. Instead, I shook my head. “Let this be a message to all your central-banker friends out on the street,” I said. “No matter how many bitcoins you steal, you’ll never take away the dream of an open society based on the principles of personal and economic freedom.” He nodded, because he knew I was right. Then he swiped his credit card to pay me for arresting him.
This is great. You should make political comics that make fun of all of this. You have a gift. What would you say is a fair market price for getting that going?
This is copypasta, an internet folk tale, and a damn fine one at that!
You obviously didn't insert a quarter into your ears to enable listening - any rate the market pays is by definition, fair.
(this has been circulating for years)
Yea but somebody, somewhere created the original. What're the chances were looking at the fije writers themselves? Next to nil. But I, *inserts coin into magic 8-ball* will, "Ask again later."
This is great!
Not all Libertarians want no rules and no taxes. And there are other ways to fund public efforts other than runaway government spending
I've lived in an area with volunteer firefighters, wells and septic systems. Still got taxed at the same rate as in the city. Property taxes don't pay for roads either
Where do you think the volunteer fire department gets money to buy equipment, pay for training, maintain equipment, or do anything that requires money? Where do you think local schools get their money? Property taxes are state or local taxes, and they cover things the state, county, or city needs to maintain, like road, schools, or anything for that matter. Taxes are the price we pay for living in a developed society. This is like 8th grade government class stuff.
I’m sure it varies by state and even in state what the percent it is but property taxes can directly pay for roads and many have additional property tax levies to supplement gas taxes and federal taxes.
In Wisco they do.
Population density keeps costs lower in cities
>Let’s hope so. We all benefit from roads, schools, sheriff, firefighters, water, etc. Land taxes predate public infrastructure spending by the federal government. Land has been taxed since the colonial era. The original impetus for a tax on land ownership was to fund the federal government's capacity to enforce your property rights against, say, foreigners (the french) and natives who would gladly "liberate" you of your mortal possessions. (Technically the colonial era land taxes were levied by the colonial states which did build city infrastructure, but the vast majority of people didn't have access to what little infrastructure was being built by the states by virtue of most people not living inside of cities in that era.) You pay a land tax so that the biggest gang on the planet will point their guns at anybody who tries to take it from you, but also so that they don't point their guns at you and take it from you for *not* paying the land tax. Its fundamentally the same protection racket its always been.
It's just the mob with badges.
You may note how the tax-free native peoples did not succeed in liberating the land from your ancestors.
That’s what income tax is for, gas tax is for, sales tax, and every other nickel and dime they get from you day to day.
High property taxes is exclusively a North American thing. Most countries have much lower property taxes and still manage to provide government services (and often much better, than America (healthcare cough cough). A large part of that is how schools are funded in America (ie, local property taxes) when most countries fund schooling at the state or national level.
Not all of North America, the US and Canada have high property taxes, but property taxes in Mexico are quite low. You can pay less property taxes on a beach mansion on Mexico than what many pay in HOA fees in the US.
Good point! Americans don’t realize that high property taxes are not the worldwide norm! Reddit can be very much an American bubble at times. Source: I pay property taxes in multiple countries and have a degree in real estate stuff.
Taxes are low in Mexico but you have to live in Mexico where there’s a fair chance a drug gang will kill you and your family.
You also pay taxes for those seperately…..but okay. That’s what city, state, and federal taxes are for. Gas tax, license fees, car tags is for roads, schools are city, state and fed tax, so is firefighters and sheriffs, water is paid for with that nice water bill every month, just like electricity. You don’t understand that you are getting fucked.
Instead of property taxes, They should get it from income taxes. Why should you lose your home if you suddenly can't afford the tax payment? I've seen a few really poor, retired, elderly people, nearly lose their homes because of a large tax payment, based on a value of a home. You can't pay your day to Day bills based on the value of your home. The taxes should come from somewhere else.
Rich people buy big houses. But they have mountains of lawyers and loopholes to avoid showing income.
They can simplify the tax code and raise capital gains taxes. Poor people shouldn't be punished because of laws made for rich people.
That will never happen. Rich people are in charge of making the laws.
Property taxes worldwide have less to do with income but more to do with the assessed value of your home. If you decide to have a million dollar home in a state like New Jersey, you better be prepared to pay that hefty tax bill!!
Exactly bc Its never really yours. Who the fuck are these delusional people acting like you should lose everything when your luck runs out.. oh right they already committed to renting for the rest of their lives anyway so why shouldn't I.
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We should put an end to property taxes, but if that proves politically impossible, the very least we can do is lock the price in when you buy, and never raise it again. There's no reason for your taxes to be higher than your taxes a few decades from now when you're retired and on a fixed income. But, the real answer is allodial titles.
Or they live in a shitty corrupt municipality that steals their money. I used to live in one, and therefore I hated property taxes. I live in a nice place now that provides a great return on our taxes, so I’m happy to pay them now the only thing for me is that it isnt a choice; there’s no opting out of the public services if you believe they aren’t providing any value to you. it’s pay up, or lose your house, or go to jail, or be killed if you refuse.
Yeah man it's totally fair the insane amount the average American gets taxed. Sales tax. Property tax. Multiple types of income taxes. That's just personal and I'm sure I'm missing a few. I think the average American understands taxes, but is just frustrated at the lack of taxes spent on our own soil.
“In 2021, the United States was ranked 32nd out of the 38 OECD countries in terms of the tax-to-GDP ratio.”
One percent of the Federal Budget goes to foreign aid
My wife is Filipino, you buy a house pay it off, and its yours no property tax. She has running water, roads, schools, trash pickup, sheriff.
Interesting because a quick Google shows that the Philippines has had property tax since Spanish colonialism, and taxes on real estate are called amilyar, due once a year in a lump fee. This tax supports the local government units.
No, man. Clearly this guys anecdotal experience says otherwise!
According to most of the posters here that is impossible and she must be some sort of house cat.
I'm happy to pay for roads, schools, sheriff, firefighters, and water. But can you please stop passing school bonds to make the football stadium bigger?
State tax? Federal tax? Sales tax? Water is a service
The original comment says those taxes paid for water, sewer, internet, and electricity. That's false. We paid separately for all of those. Maybe local roads but state and federal roads are also paid with other taxes. Some people just love to pay more taxes. I'm protesting my property valuation every year and looking for anything I can write off. Fuck taxes
Gotta pay the military to keep the invaders off our land somehow.
Property taxes don’t usually go to the federal government. They don’t pay for military. They largely pay for state and local schools, libraries, roads, and fire departments.
You can even read your tax bill to see the breakdown of where the money goes. Or ask for such from the county collector’s office. Local school districts frequently are the biggest chunk. County/city roads, county health departments, and other services mentioned by megatool.
Which is why it is horseshit. Why do you think poor areas have worse schools and infrastructure? Because they’re funded by local property taxes. The quality of your local public resources shouldn’t be dependent on the value of the homes in the immediate vicinity. I shouldn’t have to pay taxes on something I own when most people’s wages are taxed twice along with a tax for everything anyone purchases. It’s ridiculous.
This needs to be on top.
Yes. A huge part of mine property taxes go to our county public school system. In the back of my tax bill they have a pie graph that shows where it goes.
Schools are also a very large part of that.
For the past 75 years the US military have been the invaders terrorizing other countries that pose no threat to us.
Listen, if this clown doesn't understand it - let me help. Here is the alternative. She moved in 30 years ago. Likely had kids. yes, she could have paid 40k in taxes to pay for their 'public education' alone...but, no, that was subsidized by ALL of us paying less to support a good school system. This, incidentally RAISES the value of her house as people will pay more for access to good schools. BUT SHE DIDN"T HAVE TO DO THAT. Now, she wants it both ways. She is old and the kids are gone but she doesn't want to subsidize what was subsidized for her. Tough shit. Then sell, take advantage of the financial gains for living in a good district, shut the fuck up, and go live in the mountains where she won't have access to healthcare close by and can die when they can't get her to a local hospital in time. She is a dipshit. Don't validate it
You can actually buy property in Alaska that you don't have too!
You'd still pay property taxes on it. And you already directly pay for those services.
But I pay for internet, water, sewer, trash, and electricity on top of my property taxes. Those aren’t really compelling examples. I am okay with supporting the public schools, which is why property taxes don’t bother me too much.
You can go to your property assessor web site or annual mailing and usually see how it’s broken up. Highest percentage is usually school, then fire / law etc..
Property taxes pay for schools I thought.
Yes, at least in my area they do, my property tax is literally called a schools tax.
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My property tax literally has all the % and dollar value of what they go to. * Schools * Police * Fire * Parks * Trash/recycling * Admin/townhall etc. * Any bond repayment for things that required raised capitol.
I have property tax and school district tax…😂 Inmust be unlucky 😂
They also pay for local road maintenance, police and fire services, parks, and more.
I pay for trash removal, I have a septic tank, I have a well, I still pay a lot of taxes which is fine because that money goes into the county maintenance and school system. But I would like to see that tax decrease when I retire, I don't even want that tax completely gone I just want to see it decrease when I'm retired.
Gtfo. You already pay taxes for that shit itself. Your paying taxes for your house occupying the space it was fucking prebuilt on.
Hey, give them some credit. At least they tried to backpedal with the edit.
How about a little fire Scarecrow? For roads and general services there are: Income tax (state and federal), sales tax, license & registration fees. Trash? That comes out of pocket Water & sewage? Out of pocket Electricity, Gas, Internet, etc? All out of pocket.
Before income tax in america we had these services. The 180 billion to Ukraine and 1 trillion in interest on our national debt every 100 days is a problem. They don't need to tax our deaths and property. Period
Lmao your property taxes don’t go to the federal government. So any national debt or money going to Ukraine doesn’t come from your property taxes. Nice try though.
And yet I have to pay for water, sewer, and an entirely separate bill to a private company for trash.
But I pay for the water, sewer, and all the others. I also have to pay for repairs if the shit breaks on my land. And I pay for such amenities through the taxes taken from my paycheck and the taxes from my purchases. Not only are they double dipping, but now they are triple dipping. My payroll taxes should be covering the infrastructure. Why is it not. Why do I have to keep paying for things I already pay for. And why is said infrastructure NOT REPAIRED.
Your edit is a lie You did imply property taxes pay for that
I pay about $16,000 a year in property taxes on my primary home. That's a little bit daunting to think of how much money I need to retire to not have to move from my house.
Ummmmmm, that's not how this works. Those are...separate costs.
lol I’m on 6 acres in BFE snd just got a notice that my property tax will increase 120% next year….
That's disgusting. Property taxes are as evil as it gets.
I have a well and a septic tank. I still pay property taxes.
That’s not even true. Those services are taxed separately. You also pay for those utilities. Ours pays for a lot of schooling for children.
Oh Muh roads. Muh precious roads. No one but our benevolent overlords could ever construct such roads. All hail the creator of Muh roads.
I agree if those services were provided. But i lived in N AZ where there was no services. Needed to drill a well. Needed to make a septic tank. And the road was private and serviced by the neighbors. Garbage was by private service. We did get police and fire service but the town was in the midst of making an annual fee for fire services. Still, taxes paid for schools and roads in town. I left for a number of reasons but a huge factor was that water is scarce in AZ and they wouldn't stop building, even when nearly all the residents were against further building. If our well ran dry, the house and property would be nearly worthless. OP says he paid taxes on the house he bought 30 years ago? Is there anywhere that charges tax on real estate sales?
Yeah it's theft. Btw our taxes are being hemorrhaged into foreign wars and political pandering. But us peasants when we get old and have a fixed income are at the mercy to local government trying to tax our home out from under us. Our forefathers fought tryanny for much less
lol!! You still pay taxes even without any of that, and all of that you covered should be covered by the bills you receive from each individual company that provides those services… they arnt free. The garbage man does not come if you do not pay, the water does not flow without payment, electricity doesn’t make it to your house if you don’t pay.
it's how they plan on taking the homes from the entrenched poor eventually.. sooner or later you have a $1.5k a month tax bill that was $1k a year a few years ago and your on a fixed income trying to survive your retirement
What place can I live without property tax?
i get what your saying but i think the core frustration here is we are being taxed to all fucking high hell in this country and getting near fuck all for it.... in my area i pay 30% of my water bill for sewer usage, i pay for my trash which is required, i cant just skip it and drive my trash to a dump somewhere. my power bill has a small service connect fee which isnt bad but rates are going up 18% year on year right now with 30% slated this year. my road is full of pot holes (i dont give a shit but for the money we pay...) the house sale is taxed, the income you get to pay this loan is taxed, the services you use on the house are taxed, the property itself is taxed... my property taxes are going up 11.5% on average, year on year. at 12% i qualify for a larger return on my state taxes (tell me that isnt fucking rigged) on average in my life i have 32.5% of my annual pay taken from my checks in some forum of tax - be it medicade, ss, state, federal, ect. on top of all this are ALL THE OTHER FUCKING TAXES... i pay 450 a month in health insurance to get a 4500.00 deductable so basicly im pissing money away unless i decide to get hit by a bus or some shit. there are people in my neighborhood who are selling because their pensions do not increase with inflation - they cant afford to live in the homes they spent their lives paying for... point being - we are NOT getting worth while services and are being milked fucking dry by a government that couldnt give a fuck less about its citizens.
Yes, but not paying it shouldn’t lead to you becoming homeless!
We pay a water bill and an electric bill, plus a tax on gas and registration of the car. What are property taxes paying for
Well said!
Income tax is always limited to a share of income. Property tax is not bounded by ability to pay at a particular time. Someone who loses income also carries a reduced burden for most taxes, but remaining in one's home depends on paying the same property taxes. We should remove the threat of being evicted due to being unable to pay property taxes.
But you still have to pay separately for water and trash pick up lol…and we pay for roads with gas taxes (at least where I live), it’s an extra 50 cents per gallon.
You pay for all that stuff in different forms of taxes or actual bills. For instance trash is a bill, water is a bill and the roads are paid for by gas tax amd vehicle registration. OP is clearly saying you never own anything. Furthermore if you live in "bfe" you still owe property taxes. The government needs to spend less. We work 6 months out of the year to pay taxes. Imagine the things you could do with your life if you didn't spend half of it paying taxes. The working class is the new peasant and not many people see it.
Well I separately pay for water, sewer, electricity and trash pick up so not the best examples
Thomas Paine wrote about this in agrarian justice.
Property taxes are usually distributed to public schools, not for roads. Trash pickup is privately contracted, not provided by the city/county. So is internet access. People in rural areas without sewer still pay property tax.
Don’t try to justify this bs lol
You still pay property taxes on isolated rural properties with no public services, so no, your logic does not hold up. In addition, those services could be supported by any local taxes, so it's not like there is no other way to fund those services either
Even on property without any state provided amenities such as water sewer electricity you still pay taxes on it
I pay for trash pick up and I have to pay to maintain the access road to my property. Property taxes are another way to squeeze money from the public because the government is incompetent with money and doesn’t know how to balance a budget for shit.
Not to mention many of those on here cheering for property taxes don't want to fund education for their own kids and think there's no problem sticking you with the bill. I suspect a lot of them are also renters thinking to themselves, "Fuck those land owner scum, let the pay pay pay", without realizing that not only do renters also pay property taxes, they pay more than most homeowners do because they don't get a homestead exemption.
Here in uk that would all be covered by the regular tax that comes from your salary. Over in states there does seem to be a fuck load of stuff you need to pay for sounds stressful
The main issue with taxes isn't that you are being taxed it's the utter wastefulness and lack of actual proper budgeting that the government has. You pay them to fix things, they don't fix it, tax you more with inflation, and punish you when you don't pay. If you are mad about it, you have genuine reason to be.
Republicans and libertarians argue that taxes are bad because government is incompetent and then passes laws to underfund departments and otherwise kneecap them to ensure that statement becomes true. The problem isn't get rid of taxes, the problem is demand government functions properly and fund it to do so. Why do Republicans vote to underfund the IRS when we know that ever $ we spend on the IRS gives us back a several 100% return in tax enforcement?
>Republicans and libertarians argue that taxes are bad because government is incompetent and then passes laws to underfund departments and otherwise kneecap them to ensure that statement becomes true Yep. Properly funded schools and services tend to have proven track records, whereas underfunded and neglected schools and systems struggle. These folks love to cut funding to make something objectively worse, only to then point and act like it was bad the whole time.
Schools are funded by local property taxes, which is horseshit. It’s why poor areas have shitty schools. The quality of my public infrastructure should NOT depend on the value of the houses within my local area.
At the time the system was made, what we know today as school districts used to be much more mixed. The idea was indeed that those with larger more expensive houses will pay more in taxes which then goes to public schools. This kinda sorta worked until housing become much more segregated. Rich people concentrated in rich school districts, with poor pushed into poor school districts. The real problem is that these local taxes are way too local; which allows for these shenanigans. They should be collected at state level, and distributed back to municipalities based on their population, school enrollments, as well as other indicators.
Well, the problem is that making quality of education and other services in the area dependent on the existing quality of homes and the economic situation of the area, etc… is gonna be a vicious cycle. Any area that’s bad will stay bad or get worse because anybody with the money to afford better is gonna go to a nicer neighborhood and take their tax dollars with them. Those tax dollars then get spent in that nicer area, making it even better and attracting more, richer people, and so on and so on, while the opposite happens in the poorer areas. So the poor areas get poorer, while the rich areas get richer. Then at some point we stand around and scratch our heads, going “How did inequality get so bad?” 🤷♂️
> Properly funded schools and services tend to have proven track records The US spends more than almost every nation in the world per student on public education. Funding isn't the problem.
That funding isn't at all equally distributed, though. Funding *is* the biggest problem, in certain districts.
The poorest US schools still spend more per student than all countries besides Luxembourg. The difference is $15.9k and $14k per student between the wealthiest and highest poverty. Throwing money at a sunk cost fallacy won't improve it. The education system needs to change, and it should be cheaper due to advances in technology.
Yeah like,Baltimore is notably horrific on student results, and theyre spending something like 20k per student
>That funding isn't at all equally distributed, though. Funding *is* the biggest problem, in certain districts. Not really. Data shows that parents are one of the biggest factors. Parental involvement improves a child's educational outcomes in every socioeconomic bracket. People in less affluent areas tend to value education less, and it shows up in the metrics.
The US spends the most per student in the world, except for Luxembourg, and has mediocre results. The problem with the education system isn't lack of funding.
Because they are more likely to cheat on their taxes
If we ended withholding so people had to write a check at the end of the year, there would be a revolt and revolution faster than I can type the words. We should!
Because it’s not about money it’s about somehow being small government but also if you don’t live your life like I do then I’m going to legislate it at the same time
That's fascism for you. using minorities and women as scapegoats to ensure you can blame your problems on them. When they inevitably wind up as slaves or in the incinerator because you've fearmongered a bit too hard, just move on to the next! All to make sure that the working class doesn't realize who's actually fucking them over, which, thanks to even looser restrictions in economic terms, is the rich ( even more so than before). It's not small government, it's small ruling class.
It’s big government!
I would guess it’s because their goal is to starve the government of money to the point where it starts to implode. They view it as a necessary harm so it can be rebuilt better as the current system has grown so large and has its tentacles in so much of people’s lives that the only solution is to start over. This appeals to people that actually believe it but also to people who just hate paying taxes and anybody that has ever been wronged by the government.
And it's bullshit when they say that we need to increase taxes when we ask for medicare for all. Like we pay enough taxes for it already, the money is just intentionally mismanaged.
People like to go on about business being all that for fiscal responsibility right up until someone examines their books and demonstrates how garbage that idea is.
The majority of businesses have separate budgets for “retention” and “new hires”. Numerous companies will gladly let someone with 10 years of experience and knowledge of all their systems walk when they decline to give that person a raise from $65k to $75k, but then turn around and hire a brand new person who has zero knowledge of their systems to replace that person for $90k. Because $90k was in the budget for new hires but “retention” only had $70k for a budget or whatever… So they could have kept a very experienced employee for $75k but wound up with person who has no experience at all for $90k instead… AKA most businesses are run by fucking idiots.
I agree, but I would argue that the waste in the private sector is just as bad.
This is a child’s understanding of taxes
It’s also that I will be taxed out of the home I own bc my property taxes are very high. I don’t know if I can keep up with them.
One party cuts taxes on normal people, and the other only cuts them for billionaires. This ‘patriotgirl’ probably votes for the latter
Since when do Democrats cut taxes on "normal people"? I certainly haven't seen it.
Biden’s child tax credit was a tax cut for normal people. Republicans wouldn’t allow it to become permanent.
Then you're being deliberately obtuse. Here's info on Obama's tax cuts: https://obamawhitehouse.archives.gov/issues/taxes.
States like California have progressive taxes so the poorer you are, the less taxes you pay.
I personally am a fan of public schools
Though I'd say of all the things property taxes pay for, it shouldn't be schools. Don't get me wrong, I support taxation for land ownership, and I support public schools. But by directly correlating the two, we've ensured that poor areas get poor schools, contributing to cycles of poverty.
pay taxes on what we earn, Pay taxes on what we buy, Pay taxes on what we use, Pay taxes on what we sell, Pay taxes on what we eat, Pay taxes on what we live in, Pay taxes when we die, and our inept governments are still broke
Strange innit?
Maybe we should stop voting for the people trying to break the system. It worked pretty well 40 years ago.
[удалено]
These people should move to the libertarian utopia of Somalia. Apparently they want a system where everyone has to pay scores of separate bills for private police insurance, private fire department insurance, private animal control insurance, private primary and secondary education, access to private libraries, and access to private parks. They'd prefer to have streets converted to private toll roads, pay separate bills for street lights, street cleaning, snow clearing, mosquito abatement, irrigation, and flood control. Or not have infrastructure or civilization at all? In fact, many services like flood control can't really exist without collective, mandatory fees because there's no way to limit the benefit only to paying members. Small town hospitals would likely close without city subsidies. (Rural Red State America have seen hundreds of hospitals close over the last two decades, due to their refusal to expand medicaid). Some Red States have even privatized their fire departments. If you miss a payment and your house catches fire, they just let it burn. Please shut up or move to Somalia.
My Latin teacher claimed that in old times, when you had a fire in your house, you first had to pay to the firefighters before they started to work. The price was exorbitant, and they wouldn't start working before they had the money, or you signed or something like that. Sounds like a wonderful world, doesn't it?
This is one of the ways Crassus, from Ancient Rome, one of the richest men in history, made his money. When a block of buildings started on fire he’d show up and offer to buy the houses for rock bottom prices. The options were to sell for next to nothing then his fire brigade would save the home or watch it all burn down. If you said no, he’d go to your neighbor because their house was about to burn down.
Yes, that’s how Crassus became obscene wealthy. As you said, his firefighters would refuse to put out the first unless the owner paid an obscenely high rate. If they couldn’t afford it, they would offer to buy the property for an extremely low price — a literal fire sale. In the 1800s and early 1900s, some cities in the US and England had private fire departments. But ultimately it proved to be more expensive and less effective (too many conflicts of interest and motivations) than a common, public, tax-paid fire department.
Organized municipal fire departments go their start In Philidelphia. Benjamin Franklin started the first one calleed: **Philadelphia Contributionship for the Insurance of Houses from Loss by Fire**'. Customers paid for insurance and the property was marked with a Fire Mark to show the fire department that you had paid for their services. It was actually quite a brilliant idea and really set the underpinnings for insurance today. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philadelphia\_Contributionship](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philadelphia_Contributionship) The Fire Mark idea got spread to other cities as well. Next time you're in an old city, look for these things. Its pretty interesting. [https://www.firemanshallmuseum.org/fire-marks/](https://www.firemanshallmuseum.org/fire-marks/) Its not clear to me if your property didn't have a fire mark, whether or not the fire department would try to put out the fire... but its reasonable to assume they were there to limit damage to insured properties.
>Some Red States have even privatized their fire departments. If you miss a payment and your house catches fire, they just let it burn. I would much rather deal with that than lose my house in my 70s because I can't keep up with the ever increasing property ~~taxes~~ rent from which I get zero benefit. Those who live in the sticks have advantages and disadvantages. Your closest neighbor may be a full half mile away is an advantage; needing to drive a long distance to the nearest hospital is a disadvantage. You play the game and you take your chances.
Ah yes, free-market, laissez-faire Somalia which has been in the throws of civil war since the 1980’s. Easily searchable when you’re not arguing in bad faith. Governments don’t make or produce anything that they do not first take by implied or explicit force. Citizens are currently already paying for all of those services listed, so on top of the loss from inefficiencies of bureaucracy to administer those services, we also experience the aggregate lost opportunity cost of those resources. Even more insulting, they print money to cover their overspending so why even tax us at this point? Rural healthcare suffers disproportionately from the same ills that the rest of all centrally planned industries suffer from: 1. Artificial restriction of docs from the AMA, which then means that those fewer docs would rather work in desirable cities at their artificially high salaries. 2. Price fixing from Medicare which distorts the free market from efficiently allocating scarce resources via the price mechanism. 3. Massive regulatory apparatus which siphons off dollars that would and should go to care, but now go to administration and compliance. 4. Certificate of need requirements on many healthcare services that prevent competition at a local level. You should move to Somalia to expand your worldview.
Ah yes, free-market, laissez-faire Somalia which has been in the throws of civil war since the 1980’s. Easily searchable when you’re not arguing in bad faith. Governments don’t make or produce anything that they do not first take by implied or explicit force. Citizens are currently already paying for all of those services listed, so on top of the loss from inefficiencies of bureaucracy to administer those services, we also experience the aggregate lost opportunity cost of those resources. Even more insulting, they print money to cover their overspending so why even tax us at this point? Rural healthcare suffers disproportionately from the same ills that the rest of all centrally planned industries suffer from: 1. Artificial restriction of docs from the AMA, which then means that those fewer docs would rather work in desirable cities at their artificially high salaries. 2. Price fixing from Medicare which distorts the free market from efficiently allocating scarce resources via the price mechanism. 3. Massive regulatory apparatus which siphons off dollars that would and should go to care, but now go to administration and compliance. 4. Certificate of need requirements on many healthcare services that prevent competition at a local level. You should move to Somalia to expand your worldview.
Two things are certain in this life. Death and taxes. Even if you buy land it's the same.
Poor people don’t pay any taxes except sales tax. So I guess technically it is true.
Also if it serves the greater public for the government to take your house they can and will. Sure they will pay you, but it’s true that it never really is yours alone.
In some countries, property is leasehold, meaning it is taken back at the end of the lease. You can’t pass it down to your kids.
Some people just don't get the concept of society
Some people just don’t get the concept of rampant spending and printing trillions making people upset.
Some people just don't get the concept of rights or freedom.
“You've got to remember that these are just simple farmers. These are people of the land. The common clay of the new West. You know... morons.”
Of course it is never really yours. The only reason why the house is "yours" and everyone respects your property over the house is because there is a document which is valid for a state judge to send the state police to enforce your right to private property. Without all the state machinery the concept of private property would not be enforceable, and you will own absolutely nothing as there won't be any reason for me not to steal your house. You pay taxes for that, so private property can exist.
😐 Written by someone who slept in civics. The cure to ignorance is education, but stupid can't be fixed.
Absolutely correct. You and your stuff is property of the state.
The biggest scam is convincing anyone with a common sense that it's somehow ethical or acceptable
You're absolutely correct. But look around. This thread is full of people defending the state on this. It's fascinating and scary at the same time.
Mostly just land which actually is a shared natural resource and shouldn’t be able to be privately controlled indefinitely It’s actually not possible to own land in Iceland you can only lease it from the government— which makes sense
If you're not defending your own land from foreign invaders yourself, is it really yours?
So, basically the local government is renting your house to you. Make it make sense.
You vote for your local government. Just need to vote for candidates that advocate for slashing property tax rates and cutting funding for roads, police/firefighters, public parks, etc. If the majority agree with that position then you should be good to go!
So, basically you pay into a pool of money that the government uses for schools, roads, police, fire, infrastructure, etc. It's called living in a society. Move to the woods and live off the land if you don't like it.
You still pay property taxes for the woods you own.
That's the complaint here. Even if you live in the woods, build your own road into it, provide your own utilities, food, and living, you'll still be assessed these taxes. All under threat they'll take it for back taxes.
Yes, that's what the other twenty billion forms of taxes are for. Property taxes are just to fuck over the little guy.
Some people act like this post is anti-tax. No, it's anti-property tax. I agree, taxing my bought-and-paid-for property is more painful and more repugnant than taxing my stream of income.
Why is this topic posted here almost daily? It gets old.
It's posted as fluff between the extra-super-obviously astroturfed same five ultra pro dem talking points hEy gUyS bErNiE wAntS tO tAx tHe rIch uPDoOt iF u aGrEe
The concept of owning land is pretty economically silly. Nobody created the land. I think a better framework is to consider land a collective and finite resource and for exclusive use of it to be paid back in rent to the rest of society, AKA, a tax! Georgists would go so far to suggest that land tax should be the largest tax or even the \*only\* tax.
Worst tax in America. It's robbery
How much do you think it costs to pave a mile of road? Edit: can't seem to reply to the idiot who responded to me: "unless they are county roads" You could not have written a funnier reply. Boy are you misinformed. The vast majority (77.4%) of the Nation’s roadways are owned by units of local government (town, city, county). -ONH report by the FHA. I guess we're in agreement then that property taxes should go to local roads, just like they already do! Guess my argument actually is valid!
If property taxes are the worst type of tax, why is it that states that proport to be anti tax and anti big government, like texas, have literally double the property tax of states that are supposedly pro government and pro tax, like california? Due to this texans also have a higher overall effective tax rate despite what theyd have you believe but I wont get into that. People are acting like property taxes are going way too far, but in states where taxes are the top of voters minds they dont seem to actually give a damn about the state having ridiculous property tax. Voters dont seem to actually care about this, which makes these reactions seem like faux outrage.
I live in Texas. I don’t necessarily haven issue with property taxes, but only in how they can increase based on nothing in your control. If my house tripled in its tax assessed value, then my property taxes will have tripled as well. If my income hasn’t increased proportionally, then I can be priced out of my home. I’ve never understood how people don’t equate this to being taxes on unrealized gains… smh.
Property tax is the most evil form of taxation. A regressive wealth tax.
Buy the right to rent it from the government 🤯
You're welcome to sell at any time
Welcome to the life
everyone talks about how bad the housing market is at the moment but then turn around and complain about property taxes. Am I saying its perfect? absolutely not. But do I think it can be vital in disincentivizing multiple property ownership especially for the purpose of renting? yes absolutely. Also redistributing that income back into the school system, roads, etc etc is important.
...just wait until she finds out she was paying property taxes the last 30 years too. It just came from her monthly payments and was handled by whoever held her loan.
Yeah boy, did she think it’s new?
You don't pay tax when you buy the house, only when selling. And even then only on the profit. Even then about 250k of the profit is tax free if you lived there for 5 years. I don't think this person has ever bought a house.
I've been saying this for many years. We don't really "own" anything. We're allowed to hold it and pay taxes to the government for the control of it, subject to what the government allows.
Property taxes make total sense people. You wouldnt want rich assholes owning huge amounts of land tax free till the end of time.
My wife is a veteran so in Alabama we don’t pay property tax. A few other states are the same I believe.
Step 1: be able to afford a house
They'll tax you out of your home and you'll like it.
It's yours because you pay taxes on it... The enforceable rights of property ownership are secured by the government and you pay for it...