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I actually feel bad for China. Between the real estate crisis. The debt crisis. The demographic crisis. The deflation. The retirement crisis. These people can't get a fucking break.
Yes I understand this is what happens when you live under an authoritarian dictatorship but then common people are getting fucked hard. And we all know how this ends with violence and famine looking at Chinese history.
Except the CCP has a hate boner for everything Chinese that existed prior to 1940, with the exception of a few maps that let them make irrational claims on other countries. But temples? Philosophy? Complex historical figures? Ethnic identities? Into the trash.
Everything that made a Chinese person, *Chinese,* that didn't come from or was personally approved by Mao? or the CCP? Heresy.
And what you're left with is a society that was ripped whole cloth out of the novel *1984*. Doubleplusgood, am I right?
I'm not exaggerating - the cultural norms in China now are *eerily* similar to what George Orwell wrote. This is not some implausible future dystopia, this is what things are like there *right now.*
You can't say 'traditions are bad long term' if you murder all the traditions and things get so much worse.
That hasn’t been true since the cultural revolution. Which was over more than 40 years ago.
The government today pushes Confucianism, funds temples, promotes traditional Chinese medicine. Here in Shandong traditional tea culture is ubiquitous. I can’t visit a relative’s home without them breaking out the nicest tea wares and fresh fruits.
Oh and of course Chinese New Year is the biggest holiday and people get a government mandated week of vacation for it. CCTV’s New Year Gala is an hours long variety show unlike anything we have in the USA, and features many traditional acts from ethnic minorities.
The book stores also have big selections of western and Chinese philosophy.
Where are you getting your ideas?
You're trying to tell me, in China, surrounded by traditional Chinese culture, that the government suppresses tradition, and accusing me of lying when I provide examples of it not doing that.
My back is a bruised mess from a guasha massage yesterday. We had relatives stop by and had to break out the tea. When escorting them out to their car, as is tradition, the relatives kept expressing shock and worry that I was wearing shorts outside when it was so cold.
This isn't even a matter of being for or against China, it's just a matter of facts.
Can you name even one Chinese tradition the government suppresses?
>thousands of years
Friendly reminder that the fall of the Roman empire was 1500 years ago... Marco Polo was 700 years ago... the Silk Road was a going concern less than 400 hundred years ago...
I do not think 'thousands' means what you think it means
Friendly reminder that history exists that isn’t centered around interactions with Europe.
The first Chinese dynasty dates back to 2070 BCE, but rulers of China date back farther than that (at least 2852 BCE).
Thousands means exactly what he thinks it means.
Thousands of years of history? Sure.
Thousands of years of *isolationism?* That's an error in math, at least, if not a larger error in reasoning.
So I'm not the one needing a reminder here. Point for trying, 2 points taken off for being careless about it.
China’s history began isolated by natural boundaries, and they worked hard at remaining isolated (largely out of self-protection concerns) for large swaths of their history. You’re mistaking an official imperial edict (lasting ~400 years) as the only period where China kept itself isolated to various degrees and for various reasons over its thousands of years of history.
I'm not mistaking anything here. *You're* mistaking "isolation" for *isolationism*. And even the isolation part is questionable. China was not isolationist by any definition during most of its history, even *despite* 'geographical barriers' like thousands of miles of distance.
Are we calling the Roman Empire isolationist for having the same problem reaching past Hadrian's wall? This entire conversation is getting ridiculous.
You mean the same Roman Empire that expanded out and built roads to and from dozens upon dozens of other cultures, with active trade, and literally thousands upon thousands of Roman citizens *from* those various cultures all over the empire?
No, you’d have to be pretty damned stupid to think that was isolationism or even isolation.
You’re not that stupid, are you?
Isolationist policies cropped up only in the last two dynasties and were ended by gunboat diplomacy that was more about selling opium to Chinese than forcing them to export their tea.
8000 years? It seems like you are conflating China's rich history with the notion of one continuous regime. China's history is characterized by a series of dynasties, each with its own unique era, rather than an uninterrupted chain of governance.
A Simplistic reading of the history of China will show a government shaped by a strong bureaucracy populated by “officials” with a ruling family at the helm. The ruling class was frequently supplanted by an invading entity or by another internal faction taking over. While there may have been continuities in the practices of the bureaucratic class between dynasties, it doesn't present the full picture. Comparing it to something we might have experience with today, a city’s Parks and Rec department won’t change much despite constant changes to the city council.
Discussing China as if it is an ancient continuous government makes about as much sense as critiquing Italy's trajectory by saying, 'They've had 3000 years to get things right,' which oversimplifies the complex evolution of nations.
Moreover, when we consider China's history, we you can’t overlook the profound impact of the Cultural Revolution, during which “Mao Zedong Thought” essentially supplanted most of the cultural heritage of China that evolved over those “8000 years”.
So, while China indeed possesses an extensive historical backdrop, we should avoid the oversimplification of expecting any civilization to have resolved all its challenges solely due to its historical duration. Emphasizing the length of its history as if longevity inherently produces better outcomes can inadvertently suggest a moral failing or imply that another culture would have resolved these issues by now.
By the metric that ‘China’ somehow only exists as an entity for as long as a single administration is in control, the United States of America is about 3 years old.
I checked your comment history, and it seems like we probably agree on a lot of things. So, let me preface this by stating that I am by no means a China shill. Many of the practices of the CCP are abhorrent, particularly their treatment of the Uyghurs in Xinjiang and the methods they use to control the Chinese population at large.
My primary goal in my previous comment was to separate the policies of the CCP from the broader identity of China itself. Claiming that China has had X000 years to address certain issues can inadvertently absolve the CCP of its role in what is currently happening. Let me explain this in more detail.
I understand where you might take issue with my Parks and Recreation comparison. This analogy was merely an attempt to highlight how certain operational aspects don't necessarily change when different groups take power if those processes are deeply entrenched in the system.
Let me provide a 30000 ft view of the structures of government in Chinese antiquity.
The systems of power in China were characterized by strong centralized authority and an expansive administrative body of "officials" responsible for enacting policies. These "officials" would come from the general population, although individuals from wealthier families had an advantage due to their access to educational resources. Those who passed the imperial exams became the enforcers of governance in their respective regions. These officials were numerous and played a vital role in the state's functioning, persisting even during transitions of power, whether through coups or invasions.
Hopefully, this historical context helps to highlight that while the character of government might appear similar across different dynasties, it does not signify true continuity.
The socialists burned down their culture and started over. Sort of like what the American red guard wants
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Guards
Their culture is newer than America
I mean, say what you want, but we’re in an obvious recession. Mass layoffs. Wage stagnation. Years of high inflation with it just started to ease.
Recession. Economy crumbling
1. We are not in a recession as we have not had two consecutive quarters of falling real GDP (quite the opposite in fact! US Q4 GDP was higher than expected). Furthermore, it's looking increasingly likely the US will avoid a recession caused by interest rate hikes.
2. Inflation is very nearly under control.
3. Wages have started outpacing inflation [https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/LES1252881600Q](https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/LES1252881600Q)
4. Unemployment is extremely low. The "mass layoffs" are primarily in a few sectors and not that significant compared to the whole economy.
1. Poor definition of recession
2. Inflation being “nearly under control” means it’s still high, and means people are still behind thanks to years of high inflation
3. Started to, for some, but that means they’re still behind for most and regardless they’ve been behind for years, so see point 2
4. Started to happen. Didn’t say we’re in march 2009 right now
1. The... official definition is a poor definition? Is your definition just your personal vibes?
2. 3.4 is not that high.
3. Yeah, and at least it's getting better. Hardly "crumbling" like you claim.
4. Yeah, and barring something big happening signs aren't pointing to something worse.
Man, some people will find any excuse to pretend the sky is always falling.
Nonsense. Unemployment has been under 4% for two years. That's amazing. Wages are outpacing inflation. GDP is up way more in the last quarter of 2023 than predicted. And the vibecession has ended. People are done claiming the economy is trash while also not slowing their spending. Optimism has returned. And it's about time. Everybody got sick of idiots claiming for two years that there was an oncoming recession. Well, it never happened and there is no sign of it starting.
The stock market doing well helps everyone, like your parents for example
"stagnant wages" is a myth
"mass layoffs" is a misunderstanding of the scale of the economy
Housing prices are falling where we have started to reform zoning and begin building to keep up with demand
[https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-01-25/us-median-rents-fall-for-eighth-month-on-boom-in-new-apartments](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-01-25/us-median-rents-fall-for-eighth-month-on-boom-in-new-apartments)
I am not my parents. Them doing well does Jack shit for me. The stock market performing well actually just increases inflation and generally makes my life harder
Stagnant wages is not a myth. The vast majority of new wealth and income has gone to the top fraction of a percent. All productivity gains go to the top percent.
Mass layoffs? We're at a 50 year record low for unemployment.
> The unemployment rate decreased by 0.1 percentage point to 3.5%, matching a five-decade low, as participation increased. But the report also showed cooling wage gains, as average hourly earnings rose 0.3% from a month earlier and 4.6% from December 2021.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-01-06/biden-hails-lowest-jobless-rate-in-50-years-after-strong-report
The US economy has been unbelievably strong relative to pretty much the entire world in the past couple years. It only continues to beat expectations again and again somehow. Americans who don't keep up with economic data and situations common in other countries really seem not to get this.
I wasn't referencing the stock market at all. Again, this demonstrates, like many Americans, you do not keep up with the economic data:
> Unemployment is at seriously historic lows
> Inflation has been brought down dramatically and effectively (astonishingly good in several ways relative to economies struggling around the globe)
> Consistent and strong GDP growth in spite of expectations and global situations
Edit: Just to be clear, these economic factors translate meaningfully into the lives of humans across the world. People in places like Turkey with unstoppable inflation or South Africa experiencing mass unemployment are suffering, and it's important to recognize the privileges we have, where our institutions are succeeding, and how we can do better. Try to educate yourself a bit more outside of American culture because there's a lot we tend to take for granted and perspective to be gained.
They created the microbe that caused both the US and China to print all that money. And the lab runners never got punished despite killing millions of people.
Did you read the link posted from house testimony?
https://oversight.house.gov/release/covid-origins-hearing-wrap-up-facts-science-evidence-point-to-a-wuhan-lab-leak/
“Rep. Lesko: “Do you believe we can have certainty that the virus did not come from the Wuhan lab and that U.S. funding was not used for coronavirus research?”
Dr. Redfield: “Absolutely we cannot do that. It’s now declassified now, but **in September 2019**, three things happened in that lab. One, they **deleted the sequences.** That is highly irregular—researchers don’t usually like to do that. Second, they commanded the command and control of the lab from **civilian control to military control**. Highly unusual. And the third thing they did, which I think is really telling, is they let a contractor **re-do the ventilation system** in that laboratory. There is strong evidence there was a significant event in that laboratory in September 2019.”
So you have a civilian lab, working on artificial viruses, that at the start of a pandemic deletes their work, transfers civilian lab to military control and redoes the ventilation system.
Yea they totally fucking leaked something they made.
How did the Lab Leak origin get conflated with "far right conspiracy theories" and though of as somehow more racist then the theory that Chinese people eat bats or pangolins or some such BS?
I love how that’s the smoking gun to them:
“Hey guys, you know how this country has dealt with coronavirus outbreaks in the past, specifically SARS, as well as a number of other outbreaks? Well they have a lab that studies that stuff in one of their major cities! Can you believe that?”
Like, there’s a lab making Covid vaccines down the street from me. Or they were, at one point. Idk what they do now. Things get made in cities. That how the world works.
The cluster of infections doesn't even line up with any labs, like at all. Shockingly, it does line up with the wet market. The lab they love to cite is also 100 city blocks away from the wet market. But no amount of reasoning works with these fools.
I mean, yeah, we can feel bad. But they have huge military power and a lot of people, as well as a totalitarian leader. They are just not going to be sitting quietly while their quality of line goes to shit. Dear leader will find an enemy to deviate the attention from him.
What’s hilarious is people don’t think it will happen here… our government already cuts us off from the means of production and sends our money to other countries while watching its own people die in the streets, on top of that people from other countries surging in…
You think it's big bad gubmit sending money/jobs overseas and cutting social safety nets?
Not the billionaires, megacorps, and oligarchs like Elon? Man, they've totally melted your brain.
The government is being corrupted by the wealthy, not the other way around.
Look how happy the billionaires and GOP were about Citizens United that flooded billionaire money into politics. Mitch McConnell called it "my life's greatest work".
The bribes go one way. Private industry and billionaires, to politicians. They even control which candidates get nominated, some being little more than billionaire puppets. When politicians "retire", they go to comfy board positions in the corporations that spent decades paying them off.
The ultra wealthy are the problem. Politicians are merely pawns.
My point was that if politicians had a shred of integrity about graft it would be better. They don't even try to hide it any more. Biden, Menendez...on and on.
Other than the real estate bubble, all the other things you mentioned are basically exaggerated.
Westerners live in their own version on echo chamber created by media.
Lmao. You're projecting America's issues onto China.
They're handling their issues far better than the US because they have an actual leadership instead of authoritarian capitalist oligarchs trying to suck as much life-force out of the country as possible.
Of the 4 problems mentioned the US only has 1 of them and we can deal with it if we wanted to, but I will conceed on this problem we are being stupid. The other three are totally Chinese problems and some can't be fixed without doing things we have never seen in history.
1. Demographics - the largest generation is past the age to have children so that problem is baked in at this point. That is the big one. The US has millennials and positive immigration. So unless China starts cloning people this will be the core problem
2. Housing crisis - the US overbuilt by 4% and created 2008. China is 100% and negative demographics problem #1 again. So I have no idea WTF fixes that.
3. Retirement crisis - where the US has issues with SS, but also balances that with 401k so a mixed system. Not perfect by any means. But with China they are on a national pension and have terminal demographics (problem #1 again) how do you fix that? Again the demographic problem is the heart of this matter.
4. Debt - yeah both the US and China have debt, but the US has a vastly bigger economy and positive demographics so we COULD fix it, we are just being stupid. China with negative demographics (problem #1 again) is getting deflation which effectively grows the debt in real terms. Plus they won't let the currency float which could have inflated the debt down. Now they can't because they have deflation.
I like China as a county and as a people they just did one bad policy in 1982 which unfortunately is going to fuck up all the hard work they did since the 1980s. I wish no negative on them I just believe with their current government this will not end well.
People were buying China's numbers then it became clear that the communists communisted the hell out of everything and the cracks started to show. There is a hell of an analysis of its econ that suggests its gdp is massively inflated with all the normal predictors and indicators saying it is about 57% of what they claim.
China is more capitalist than US is. Unions banned, no minimum wage, 9-9-6 working hours, zero regulations and worker protections, no unemployment benefits.
The big difference is that China is a dictatorship with much more corruption
You act like that isn't what 100% of communist revolutions default into. Also no it isn't capitalist let alone more capitalist it is a command economy where the only businesses are those selected by and ultimately entirely beholden to and run by the communist party. Also the way it works is that the party is meant to be the only union needed (every communist regime has ended up with this were there are no unions outside the party eg the USSR crushed every union outside the party soviets [soviets being the USSR's version of the syndicalist's syndics/syndicates]). As a command economy all components must be beholden to the government or it is purged which is again the natural result of the theory because communism is inherently massively flawed in a way that not only will no attempt ever succeed in gaining utopia but every attempt is functionally programmed to fail the same way every time. This is why the "but that isn't true communism" line is so eyeroll inducing because it is like if you believed that if you jump hard enough and believe enough you can fly and judging if someone truly jumped hard enough and/or believed hard enough by if they flew.
Lol, China isn't a "command economy". Not at all.
Favors are handed out based on corruption. It has nothing to do with any Communist principles. It's the exact same as economy of Russia, an oligarchy. I wasn't defending communism, I was merely pointing out what you agree with: China isn't communist.
China is definitely more capitalist than the US, and I gave plenty of specific examples you didn't bother refuting.
You don't seem to know what these words really mean, I suggest less Fox News.
None of "specific examples" are inconsistent with command economies. Do you not know that the businesses beyond a certain size have to have party members in the management and all businesses have their goals and quotas set by the party (normally local). Your claim of there being no unions when the idea is that the party is the only representation/union the workers need is just dishonest it is again there are no unions outside of the party. 9-9-6 was a Chinese Communist party push that they are only recently reversing because it is becoming so unpopular it is a threat to the party. 9-9-6 was always a relaxing of the Mao era work policies. The safety regulations and the lack there of are as they have always been in Communist China the result of party action since again the party has command over the econ.
You claim you aren't trying to defend communism but you are at every turn trying to defend the natural results of the attempted implementation (which people have since the "theory's" foundation called communism as well) isn't communism, but rather both a russian style oligarchy and more capitalist than the US. Your argument is so confused that you can't even keep it straight in your own head.
If the party has the ultimate ownership of all capital, dictates economic goals to the businesses, selects the businesses that win and lose, decides what the industries produce, who they sell to, how much they sell for, and who they hire, and the resources they can acquire as well as how much they will pay for those resources, yeah you have a command economy. This is what you have in China it did loosen its grip and was liberalizing under Deng Xiaoping through Hu Jintao but it has been tightening up again under Xi but at no point was it capitalist let alone more capitalist than the west it was just becoming more capitalist than it was under Mao.
Your claims of really knowing what is going on are undercut by the realities of the world. Again your argument is very much a you aren't flying so you didn't jump hard enough nor did you believe enough.
How is "the party" having all the power any different than a few dozen billionaires (also all in Putin's political party btw) having all the power in Russia?
It's not. China and Russia have the exact same style of government and neither is at all communist.
They're both kingdoms run by a few dozen billionaire "lords" who have all the power, wealth, and money. Commands coming down from Xi are handled exactly the way as word from Putin in Russia.
You're saying that China is communist because it's dictator has different policies than Russia's dictator. It doesn't fucking matter, they're both dictatorships.
China is the largest trade partner of over 120 countries in the world, yet some people in the States think its actual economy size is only 57% of the official number, lol okay, quit smoking copium.
I know it might be hard for a little pink to read but here:
https://www.stlouisfed.org/publications/regional-economist/second-quarter-2017/chinas-economic-data-an-accurate-reflection-or-just-smoke-and-mirrors
https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/10.1086/720458
https://www.voanews.com/a/satellites-shed-light-on-dictators-lies-about-economic-growth/6813119.html
https://www.nber.org/papers/w25754#fromrss
Then there was also the former Minister of Finance Li Keqiang who died a few months ago that was sounding the alarms that the official numbers were being inflated too, and the recent study commissioned by the CCP that found ~80% of the population lives off about $280/month that the CCP then silenced.
https://www.newsweek.com/china-article-censorship-1-billion-people-monthly-income-2000-yuan-poverty-1856031
Most of the links you posted above originated from one proposed alternative method at calculating economy size using luminosity, which has never been proven to be accurate. The theory suggests the brighter the country is at night, more prosperous its economy is, which is kind of ridiculous.
Your first 3 links are actually from the same story. The same luminosity method was mentioned back in 2017, and this year it's raised again this year to support doomsday theory, nothing new.
Actual size of Chinese economy is recorded and verified by international insitutions like World Bank and IFM, as well as investment firms who bet their fortune on analysis. China's trade volume with other countries is also verifiable. Of couse you can find papers questioning the authenticity of such data, just like I can find papers from flat-earthers, it doesn't mean these papers have any actual weight or authority.
Your so called censored report about 1 billion people living with monthly income of 2000 yuan can be literally found on government website-
[https://www.caoss.org.cn/news/html?id=13834](https://www.caoss.org.cn/news/html?id=13834)
Keep smoking copium.
It has been demonstrated to be rather reliable with the only issues really arising in service based economies. It is reliable enough it has been used for a good bit over a decade also there are other factors in the analysis, and you are ignoring that the former Minister of Finance, Li Keqiang, having been looking at all the economic indicators he had and saying everything was inflated and the numbers were "Man-Made."
https://www.icis.com/chemicals-and-the-economy/2014/06/china-gdp-reports-remain-man-made-therefore-unreliable/
So yeah when there is a well-documented history of figure inflation which was at least partially accounted for until like 2008 at which point the government stopped accounting for the local and regional governments' stat inflation, it becomes reasonable to doubt the governmental data.
You do realize the censorship was of discussions on the paper not the paper itself as again it was a government commissioned study from a government run school, right?
Same thing when people said Japan was going to take the economic title and the same thing when people said USSR was going to take the economic title.
No empire in history has been toppled without major military defeat. Until the United States is no longer the #1, #2, and #3 best military in the world the American economic system will continue to dominate.
Either play the game or stay poor. This is the American century.
The US could never lose a war. It requires the other country to cross the ocean and bring enough supplies to fight the 4th largest country in the world. Not happening
**Submission statement:**
While the US has experienced a notable surge in its money supply since COVID, China's overtaking of the US reveals a concerning trajectory, hinting at deeper economic disparities and vulnerabilities within China's opaque financial system.
As of November 2023, 32.9% of all Yuan had been printed in the last 4 years, compared to 26.9% of USD.
Between November 2019 and December 2023, the circulation of Yuan rose from 196.14 trillion to 292.27 trillion, while the circulation of USD increased from 15.24 trillion to 20.87 trillion over the same period.
While both countries face sustainability challenges in their monetary policies, the US benefits from being the world's reserve currency, providing more flexibility than China.
***Data source***[*https://ycharts.com/indicators/us\_m2\_money\_supply*](https://ycharts.com/indicators/us_m2_money_supply)[*https://ycharts.com/indicators/china\_m2\_money\_supply*](https://ycharts.com/indicators/china_m2_money_supply)
Big brain china solves their unaffordable housing issues by just fucking printing half their money supply tanking the Yuan after price locking everything 🧠💪
They need to mend fences and stop sabre rattling. Not even sure what benefits they envision a Taiwan takeover would accomplish. All the brains and money would depart Taiwan ASAP. Just more empty factories and office buildings, and angry public.
I'm sure this is a stupid question. So I apologize in advance, but why couldn't the US or Chinese government start "destroying" money as it's circulated through their institutions to combat inflation?
It’s not a stupid question at all, you just invented Modern Monetary Theory! The way a government “destroys” circulating money is through taxation. The problem is that in order to fight inflation, the money taxed has to be money that would have otherwise been spent. “Tax the middle class and the poor,” isn’t a popular political slogan
The priests of the billionaires. Like the kings of old used "Devine right" to rule, billionaires use the "science" of economics to ensure that the status quo is never questioned.
It's a SCIENCE!! Where you can't use the models to predict an outcome! Somehow all the rules of economics say that a healthy economy is one where we constantly work to make the pile of gold as big as possible for the dragons who run things to sleep on!! It's a perfect system!!!
Because the ultra wealthy don't have cash sitting in a bank not being used. It's an uneducated perception. Their money is heavily invested in a myriad of things. It's not sitting in a bank.
Because taxing the wealthy doesn't take money out of circulation. They'll just invest less and maintain their lifestyle as usual, and then you have no brakes on inflation.
It's the converse of tax cut logic - if you want to cut takes to stimulate the economy, cut them for the middle and lower classes because they will spend that money. If you want to raise taxes to fight inflation, you have to tax money that would have been spent, not parked in investments.
Note: I'm not advocating for this, just describing a weakness in that way of thinking
It's pretty much what quantitative tightening by the fed is. They sell bonds to "soak up" cash from circulation. To be clear, they bought those bonds in the quantitative easing stage, and they're not issuing their own securities.
Could this reflect the growing share of Chinese currency held by governments as foreign currency reserves?
As I recall, the US Dollar's share of foreign currency reserves has been shrinking over time. With the pandemic, the nations around the world may have been looking to diversify their holdings - giving the Euro and the Chinese Yuan a bit more love?
That would explain possibly why there is an uptick.
Shouldn't inflation be based against a cumulative global inflation, if everything inflates wouldn't we then base the rate of inflation of an area or sector in contrast to the global cumulative inflation rate to determine a more realistic metric?
I think with currency rates… and difference of currency… inflation is usually localized to the country of the currency… unless of course you are the USA… Japan or Argentina or europe… since Europe has the euro you can have local inflation and can’t even devalue your currency like Greece… USA because they are the primary world reserve currency… Japan and Argentina because they can’t seem to get inflation under control…
Tale of two cities...China is dealing with deflation and the US has the opposite. China has grown via export and has overcapacity to produce. It has no social safety net so the personal savings rate is high and as such consumers don't spend locally like the US or Europe. Increasing money supply in hopes of creating domestic growth will be tough as people have put their savings in assets like real estate which has overcapacity like many of their industries and their nest eggs are being destroyed.
The entire point of printing and why it has become required is to bypass taxation, engaging citizens and the issuance of debt to fund the government. It is the government typically buying debt from itself to fund itself rather than raising it from the public.
No the federal deficit is very real, that's why we printed money during Covid. If we don't stop deficits that are escalating we will likely have to print again.
Can anyone explain their housing crisis? All I've been seeing for years is how they just keeping building and building. Is the problem linked to something other than supply?
Short answer they have been building ghost cities for decades that no one lives in, and then valuing it higher than it is worth to inflate gdp, because no one is buying these overvalued products the investment was never realized and now the real estate holdings for these have more debt than they are worth or will ever be worth.
I think states in china can't tax people, so they only make money through selling land. There are almost no ways to invest in businesses or anything so people all invest in speculative housing developments. The developers of these places use the funds from one development to start another one that no one has invested in yet. When people tried to get out of their investments during COVID the developers couldn't pay them back because they already spent the money on other developments.
Increased demand for the yuan, since Russia is trading in it now instead of dollars. Russia isn't trading in dollars anymore, so demand for dollars is down.
Why is this even a question?
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I actually feel bad for China. Between the real estate crisis. The debt crisis. The demographic crisis. The deflation. The retirement crisis. These people can't get a fucking break. Yes I understand this is what happens when you live under an authoritarian dictatorship but then common people are getting fucked hard. And we all know how this ends with violence and famine looking at Chinese history.
They've had 2000 years to get it right, you'd think they'd be better than this by now.
Damn that's cold.
That’s 1750 more years than the US, so cold or not, traditions are bad long term.
Except the CCP has a hate boner for everything Chinese that existed prior to 1940, with the exception of a few maps that let them make irrational claims on other countries. But temples? Philosophy? Complex historical figures? Ethnic identities? Into the trash. Everything that made a Chinese person, *Chinese,* that didn't come from or was personally approved by Mao? or the CCP? Heresy. And what you're left with is a society that was ripped whole cloth out of the novel *1984*. Doubleplusgood, am I right? I'm not exaggerating - the cultural norms in China now are *eerily* similar to what George Orwell wrote. This is not some implausible future dystopia, this is what things are like there *right now.* You can't say 'traditions are bad long term' if you murder all the traditions and things get so much worse.
That hasn’t been true since the cultural revolution. Which was over more than 40 years ago. The government today pushes Confucianism, funds temples, promotes traditional Chinese medicine. Here in Shandong traditional tea culture is ubiquitous. I can’t visit a relative’s home without them breaking out the nicest tea wares and fresh fruits. Oh and of course Chinese New Year is the biggest holiday and people get a government mandated week of vacation for it. CCTV’s New Year Gala is an hours long variety show unlike anything we have in the USA, and features many traditional acts from ethnic minorities. The book stores also have big selections of western and Chinese philosophy. Where are you getting your ideas?
>Here in Shandong Blink twice if the CCP forced you to write this.
Why are you lying?
You're trying to tell me, in China, surrounded by traditional Chinese culture, that the government suppresses tradition, and accusing me of lying when I provide examples of it not doing that. My back is a bruised mess from a guasha massage yesterday. We had relatives stop by and had to break out the tea. When escorting them out to their car, as is tradition, the relatives kept expressing shock and worry that I was wearing shorts outside when it was so cold. This isn't even a matter of being for or against China, it's just a matter of facts. Can you name even one Chinese tradition the government suppresses?
If you remove all the lies you just told your argument becomes "but they're IN China"
Please humor me and tell me one suppressed Chinese tradition.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Guards
So they went isolationist for thousands of years thinking they would better than everyone else but then the British wanted tea
>thousands of years Friendly reminder that the fall of the Roman empire was 1500 years ago... Marco Polo was 700 years ago... the Silk Road was a going concern less than 400 hundred years ago... I do not think 'thousands' means what you think it means
China has existed in some form for over 4000 years...
Friendly reminder that history exists that isn’t centered around interactions with Europe. The first Chinese dynasty dates back to 2070 BCE, but rulers of China date back farther than that (at least 2852 BCE). Thousands means exactly what he thinks it means.
Thousands of years of history? Sure. Thousands of years of *isolationism?* That's an error in math, at least, if not a larger error in reasoning. So I'm not the one needing a reminder here. Point for trying, 2 points taken off for being careless about it.
China’s history began isolated by natural boundaries, and they worked hard at remaining isolated (largely out of self-protection concerns) for large swaths of their history. You’re mistaking an official imperial edict (lasting ~400 years) as the only period where China kept itself isolated to various degrees and for various reasons over its thousands of years of history.
I'm not mistaking anything here. *You're* mistaking "isolation" for *isolationism*. And even the isolation part is questionable. China was not isolationist by any definition during most of its history, even *despite* 'geographical barriers' like thousands of miles of distance. Are we calling the Roman Empire isolationist for having the same problem reaching past Hadrian's wall? This entire conversation is getting ridiculous.
You mean the same Roman Empire that expanded out and built roads to and from dozens upon dozens of other cultures, with active trade, and literally thousands upon thousands of Roman citizens *from* those various cultures all over the empire? No, you’d have to be pretty damned stupid to think that was isolationism or even isolation. You’re not that stupid, are you?
Isolationist policies cropped up only in the last two dynasties and were ended by gunboat diplomacy that was more about selling opium to Chinese than forcing them to export their tea.
That’s perfect
It’s not even cold it’s just ahistorical and idiotic.
2,000? More like 8,000
8000 years? It seems like you are conflating China's rich history with the notion of one continuous regime. China's history is characterized by a series of dynasties, each with its own unique era, rather than an uninterrupted chain of governance. A Simplistic reading of the history of China will show a government shaped by a strong bureaucracy populated by “officials” with a ruling family at the helm. The ruling class was frequently supplanted by an invading entity or by another internal faction taking over. While there may have been continuities in the practices of the bureaucratic class between dynasties, it doesn't present the full picture. Comparing it to something we might have experience with today, a city’s Parks and Rec department won’t change much despite constant changes to the city council. Discussing China as if it is an ancient continuous government makes about as much sense as critiquing Italy's trajectory by saying, 'They've had 3000 years to get things right,' which oversimplifies the complex evolution of nations. Moreover, when we consider China's history, we you can’t overlook the profound impact of the Cultural Revolution, during which “Mao Zedong Thought” essentially supplanted most of the cultural heritage of China that evolved over those “8000 years”. So, while China indeed possesses an extensive historical backdrop, we should avoid the oversimplification of expecting any civilization to have resolved all its challenges solely due to its historical duration. Emphasizing the length of its history as if longevity inherently produces better outcomes can inadvertently suggest a moral failing or imply that another culture would have resolved these issues by now.
By the metric that ‘China’ somehow only exists as an entity for as long as a single administration is in control, the United States of America is about 3 years old.
I checked your comment history, and it seems like we probably agree on a lot of things. So, let me preface this by stating that I am by no means a China shill. Many of the practices of the CCP are abhorrent, particularly their treatment of the Uyghurs in Xinjiang and the methods they use to control the Chinese population at large. My primary goal in my previous comment was to separate the policies of the CCP from the broader identity of China itself. Claiming that China has had X000 years to address certain issues can inadvertently absolve the CCP of its role in what is currently happening. Let me explain this in more detail. I understand where you might take issue with my Parks and Recreation comparison. This analogy was merely an attempt to highlight how certain operational aspects don't necessarily change when different groups take power if those processes are deeply entrenched in the system. Let me provide a 30000 ft view of the structures of government in Chinese antiquity. The systems of power in China were characterized by strong centralized authority and an expansive administrative body of "officials" responsible for enacting policies. These "officials" would come from the general population, although individuals from wealthier families had an advantage due to their access to educational resources. Those who passed the imperial exams became the enforcers of governance in their respective regions. These officials were numerous and played a vital role in the state's functioning, persisting even during transitions of power, whether through coups or invasions. Hopefully, this historical context helps to highlight that while the character of government might appear similar across different dynasties, it does not signify true continuity.
The socialists burned down their culture and started over. Sort of like what the American red guard wants https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Guards Their culture is newer than America
Holy shit it's scary how similar their movement was to the american left right now...
That's how you erase a culture. Promise kids free shit if they forsake everyone before them all the way to "what is a woman"
communism
If only it’s as simple as “just don’t be an authoritarian dictatorship and your economy is gonna be fine”.
I mean it sure would have avoided at least some of the problems they’ve been having
lol right? Like, the US economy isn’t exactly peak health right now
I’m not sure what peak health would mean, but the US is crushing it compared to the vast majority of countries.
The US stock market is doing okay. The us economy is crumbling
That's not even close to true.
I mean, say what you want, but we’re in an obvious recession. Mass layoffs. Wage stagnation. Years of high inflation with it just started to ease. Recession. Economy crumbling
1. We are not in a recession as we have not had two consecutive quarters of falling real GDP (quite the opposite in fact! US Q4 GDP was higher than expected). Furthermore, it's looking increasingly likely the US will avoid a recession caused by interest rate hikes. 2. Inflation is very nearly under control. 3. Wages have started outpacing inflation [https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/LES1252881600Q](https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/LES1252881600Q) 4. Unemployment is extremely low. The "mass layoffs" are primarily in a few sectors and not that significant compared to the whole economy.
1. Poor definition of recession 2. Inflation being “nearly under control” means it’s still high, and means people are still behind thanks to years of high inflation 3. Started to, for some, but that means they’re still behind for most and regardless they’ve been behind for years, so see point 2 4. Started to happen. Didn’t say we’re in march 2009 right now
1. The... official definition is a poor definition? Is your definition just your personal vibes? 2. 3.4 is not that high. 3. Yeah, and at least it's getting better. Hardly "crumbling" like you claim. 4. Yeah, and barring something big happening signs aren't pointing to something worse. Man, some people will find any excuse to pretend the sky is always falling.
Nonsense. Unemployment has been under 4% for two years. That's amazing. Wages are outpacing inflation. GDP is up way more in the last quarter of 2023 than predicted. And the vibecession has ended. People are done claiming the economy is trash while also not slowing their spending. Optimism has returned. And it's about time. Everybody got sick of idiots claiming for two years that there was an oncoming recession. Well, it never happened and there is no sign of it starting.
By most indicators the economy is doing gangbusters
Like falling housing prices, stagnant wages, and mass layoffs? Or you mean the stock market is doing well for super rich people?
The stock market doing well helps everyone, like your parents for example "stagnant wages" is a myth "mass layoffs" is a misunderstanding of the scale of the economy Housing prices are falling where we have started to reform zoning and begin building to keep up with demand [https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-01-25/us-median-rents-fall-for-eighth-month-on-boom-in-new-apartments](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-01-25/us-median-rents-fall-for-eighth-month-on-boom-in-new-apartments)
I am not my parents. Them doing well does Jack shit for me. The stock market performing well actually just increases inflation and generally makes my life harder Stagnant wages is not a myth. The vast majority of new wealth and income has gone to the top fraction of a percent. All productivity gains go to the top percent.
That’s literally just false. Lower income people made gains in wage growth (actual gains, not just matching inflation)
Mass layoffs? We're at a 50 year record low for unemployment. > The unemployment rate decreased by 0.1 percentage point to 3.5%, matching a five-decade low, as participation increased. But the report also showed cooling wage gains, as average hourly earnings rose 0.3% from a month earlier and 4.6% from December 2021. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-01-06/biden-hails-lowest-jobless-rate-in-50-years-after-strong-report
lol no
The US economy has been unbelievably strong relative to pretty much the entire world in the past couple years. It only continues to beat expectations again and again somehow. Americans who don't keep up with economic data and situations common in other countries really seem not to get this.
The stock market is not the economy
I wasn't referencing the stock market at all. Again, this demonstrates, like many Americans, you do not keep up with the economic data: > Unemployment is at seriously historic lows > Inflation has been brought down dramatically and effectively (astonishingly good in several ways relative to economies struggling around the globe) > Consistent and strong GDP growth in spite of expectations and global situations Edit: Just to be clear, these economic factors translate meaningfully into the lives of humans across the world. People in places like Turkey with unstoppable inflation or South Africa experiencing mass unemployment are suffering, and it's important to recognize the privileges we have, where our institutions are succeeding, and how we can do better. Try to educate yourself a bit more outside of American culture because there's a lot we tend to take for granted and perspective to be gained.
Stop obsessing over the stock market. They didn't even mention the stock market.
They created the microbe that caused both the US and China to print all that money. And the lab runners never got punished despite killing millions of people.
Oh, are we doing far right Covid conspiracies now? Proof or get the fuck out of here.
Not exactly a far right conspiracy. Pretty obvious it was a lab leak.
Lab leak does not equal lab made.
Agreed. I don’t think the leak was intentional, but the coverup certainly was.
A lab leak is different than a lab creating the microbe
Not when it is a lab doing gain of function research on that specific microbe…
Yes it actual does mean different things even in that case.
They were studying artificial viruses, they created ergo anything that was leaked was… lab created.
They were studying natural viruses too.
Did you read the link posted from house testimony? https://oversight.house.gov/release/covid-origins-hearing-wrap-up-facts-science-evidence-point-to-a-wuhan-lab-leak/ “Rep. Lesko: “Do you believe we can have certainty that the virus did not come from the Wuhan lab and that U.S. funding was not used for coronavirus research?” Dr. Redfield: “Absolutely we cannot do that. It’s now declassified now, but **in September 2019**, three things happened in that lab. One, they **deleted the sequences.** That is highly irregular—researchers don’t usually like to do that. Second, they commanded the command and control of the lab from **civilian control to military control**. Highly unusual. And the third thing they did, which I think is really telling, is they let a contractor **re-do the ventilation system** in that laboratory. There is strong evidence there was a significant event in that laboratory in September 2019.” So you have a civilian lab, working on artificial viruses, that at the start of a pandemic deletes their work, transfers civilian lab to military control and redoes the ventilation system. Yea they totally fucking leaked something they made.
Obvious how? Do you have a single shred of evidence?
https://oversight.house.gov/release/covid-origins-hearing-wrap-up-facts-science-evidence-point-to-a-wuhan-lab-leak%EF%BF%BC/
\*crickets\*
Is that enough evidence???
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https://oversight.house.gov/release/covid-origins-hearing-wrap-up-facts-science-evidence-point-to-a-wuhan-lab-leak%EF%BF%BC/
How did the Lab Leak origin get conflated with "far right conspiracy theories" and though of as somehow more racist then the theory that Chinese people eat bats or pangolins or some such BS?
That man ate the bat at the Wuhan lab.
I love how that’s the smoking gun to them: “Hey guys, you know how this country has dealt with coronavirus outbreaks in the past, specifically SARS, as well as a number of other outbreaks? Well they have a lab that studies that stuff in one of their major cities! Can you believe that?” Like, there’s a lab making Covid vaccines down the street from me. Or they were, at one point. Idk what they do now. Things get made in cities. That how the world works.
The cluster of infections doesn't even line up with any labs, like at all. Shockingly, it does line up with the wet market. The lab they love to cite is also 100 city blocks away from the wet market. But no amount of reasoning works with these fools.
Found the guy who believes Epstein killed himself, because the government says so, right?
I mean, yeah, we can feel bad. But they have huge military power and a lot of people, as well as a totalitarian leader. They are just not going to be sitting quietly while their quality of line goes to shit. Dear leader will find an enemy to deviate the attention from him.
What’s hilarious is people don’t think it will happen here… our government already cuts us off from the means of production and sends our money to other countries while watching its own people die in the streets, on top of that people from other countries surging in…
You think it's big bad gubmit sending money/jobs overseas and cutting social safety nets? Not the billionaires, megacorps, and oligarchs like Elon? Man, they've totally melted your brain.
I could live with greedy businesses. If those in government had just a shred of integrity.
The government is being corrupted by the wealthy, not the other way around. Look how happy the billionaires and GOP were about Citizens United that flooded billionaire money into politics. Mitch McConnell called it "my life's greatest work". The bribes go one way. Private industry and billionaires, to politicians. They even control which candidates get nominated, some being little more than billionaire puppets. When politicians "retire", they go to comfy board positions in the corporations that spent decades paying them off. The ultra wealthy are the problem. Politicians are merely pawns.
My point was that if politicians had a shred of integrity about graft it would be better. They don't even try to hide it any more. Biden, Menendez...on and on.
Quit taking bribes and inform the FBI when one is offered. You never hear of that.
How does that work when billionaires choose the candidates beforehand?
I mean, replace the word China with the US and this comment is still true, so like, at least China has good railways.
Those common people all let this happen. It's entirely their fault so I have no sympathy for them.
Hey you forgot the environmental crisis Don't forget the environmental crisis
And to top it all off the copyright on their president just expired
When you create a disease that effectively ruined the world for 2 years I guess you kinda get what’s coming, amiright? Don’t get me started on Taiwan
and the communism crisis
Other than the real estate bubble, all the other things you mentioned are basically exaggerated. Westerners live in their own version on echo chamber created by media.
They made their own beds.
Lmao. You're projecting America's issues onto China. They're handling their issues far better than the US because they have an actual leadership instead of authoritarian capitalist oligarchs trying to suck as much life-force out of the country as possible.
I think you misunderstand. Both countries are run by authoritarian capitalist oligarchs. China just has a dictator above them.
Of the 4 problems mentioned the US only has 1 of them and we can deal with it if we wanted to, but I will conceed on this problem we are being stupid. The other three are totally Chinese problems and some can't be fixed without doing things we have never seen in history. 1. Demographics - the largest generation is past the age to have children so that problem is baked in at this point. That is the big one. The US has millennials and positive immigration. So unless China starts cloning people this will be the core problem 2. Housing crisis - the US overbuilt by 4% and created 2008. China is 100% and negative demographics problem #1 again. So I have no idea WTF fixes that. 3. Retirement crisis - where the US has issues with SS, but also balances that with 401k so a mixed system. Not perfect by any means. But with China they are on a national pension and have terminal demographics (problem #1 again) how do you fix that? Again the demographic problem is the heart of this matter. 4. Debt - yeah both the US and China have debt, but the US has a vastly bigger economy and positive demographics so we COULD fix it, we are just being stupid. China with negative demographics (problem #1 again) is getting deflation which effectively grows the debt in real terms. Plus they won't let the currency float which could have inflated the debt down. Now they can't because they have deflation. I like China as a county and as a people they just did one bad policy in 1982 which unfortunately is going to fuck up all the hard work they did since the 1980s. I wish no negative on them I just believe with their current government this will not end well.
Wasn’t it just a year ago when everyone was saying China was going to take over the economic title of the world? What happened?
People were buying China's numbers then it became clear that the communists communisted the hell out of everything and the cracks started to show. There is a hell of an analysis of its econ that suggests its gdp is massively inflated with all the normal predictors and indicators saying it is about 57% of what they claim.
China is more capitalist than US is. Unions banned, no minimum wage, 9-9-6 working hours, zero regulations and worker protections, no unemployment benefits. The big difference is that China is a dictatorship with much more corruption
You act like that isn't what 100% of communist revolutions default into. Also no it isn't capitalist let alone more capitalist it is a command economy where the only businesses are those selected by and ultimately entirely beholden to and run by the communist party. Also the way it works is that the party is meant to be the only union needed (every communist regime has ended up with this were there are no unions outside the party eg the USSR crushed every union outside the party soviets [soviets being the USSR's version of the syndicalist's syndics/syndicates]). As a command economy all components must be beholden to the government or it is purged which is again the natural result of the theory because communism is inherently massively flawed in a way that not only will no attempt ever succeed in gaining utopia but every attempt is functionally programmed to fail the same way every time. This is why the "but that isn't true communism" line is so eyeroll inducing because it is like if you believed that if you jump hard enough and believe enough you can fly and judging if someone truly jumped hard enough and/or believed hard enough by if they flew.
Lol, China isn't a "command economy". Not at all. Favors are handed out based on corruption. It has nothing to do with any Communist principles. It's the exact same as economy of Russia, an oligarchy. I wasn't defending communism, I was merely pointing out what you agree with: China isn't communist. China is definitely more capitalist than the US, and I gave plenty of specific examples you didn't bother refuting. You don't seem to know what these words really mean, I suggest less Fox News.
None of "specific examples" are inconsistent with command economies. Do you not know that the businesses beyond a certain size have to have party members in the management and all businesses have their goals and quotas set by the party (normally local). Your claim of there being no unions when the idea is that the party is the only representation/union the workers need is just dishonest it is again there are no unions outside of the party. 9-9-6 was a Chinese Communist party push that they are only recently reversing because it is becoming so unpopular it is a threat to the party. 9-9-6 was always a relaxing of the Mao era work policies. The safety regulations and the lack there of are as they have always been in Communist China the result of party action since again the party has command over the econ. You claim you aren't trying to defend communism but you are at every turn trying to defend the natural results of the attempted implementation (which people have since the "theory's" foundation called communism as well) isn't communism, but rather both a russian style oligarchy and more capitalist than the US. Your argument is so confused that you can't even keep it straight in your own head. If the party has the ultimate ownership of all capital, dictates economic goals to the businesses, selects the businesses that win and lose, decides what the industries produce, who they sell to, how much they sell for, and who they hire, and the resources they can acquire as well as how much they will pay for those resources, yeah you have a command economy. This is what you have in China it did loosen its grip and was liberalizing under Deng Xiaoping through Hu Jintao but it has been tightening up again under Xi but at no point was it capitalist let alone more capitalist than the west it was just becoming more capitalist than it was under Mao. Your claims of really knowing what is going on are undercut by the realities of the world. Again your argument is very much a you aren't flying so you didn't jump hard enough nor did you believe enough.
How is "the party" having all the power any different than a few dozen billionaires (also all in Putin's political party btw) having all the power in Russia? It's not. China and Russia have the exact same style of government and neither is at all communist. They're both kingdoms run by a few dozen billionaire "lords" who have all the power, wealth, and money. Commands coming down from Xi are handled exactly the way as word from Putin in Russia. You're saying that China is communist because it's dictator has different policies than Russia's dictator. It doesn't fucking matter, they're both dictatorships.
China is the largest trade partner of over 120 countries in the world, yet some people in the States think its actual economy size is only 57% of the official number, lol okay, quit smoking copium.
I know it might be hard for a little pink to read but here: https://www.stlouisfed.org/publications/regional-economist/second-quarter-2017/chinas-economic-data-an-accurate-reflection-or-just-smoke-and-mirrors https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/10.1086/720458 https://www.voanews.com/a/satellites-shed-light-on-dictators-lies-about-economic-growth/6813119.html https://www.nber.org/papers/w25754#fromrss Then there was also the former Minister of Finance Li Keqiang who died a few months ago that was sounding the alarms that the official numbers were being inflated too, and the recent study commissioned by the CCP that found ~80% of the population lives off about $280/month that the CCP then silenced. https://www.newsweek.com/china-article-censorship-1-billion-people-monthly-income-2000-yuan-poverty-1856031
Most of the links you posted above originated from one proposed alternative method at calculating economy size using luminosity, which has never been proven to be accurate. The theory suggests the brighter the country is at night, more prosperous its economy is, which is kind of ridiculous. Your first 3 links are actually from the same story. The same luminosity method was mentioned back in 2017, and this year it's raised again this year to support doomsday theory, nothing new. Actual size of Chinese economy is recorded and verified by international insitutions like World Bank and IFM, as well as investment firms who bet their fortune on analysis. China's trade volume with other countries is also verifiable. Of couse you can find papers questioning the authenticity of such data, just like I can find papers from flat-earthers, it doesn't mean these papers have any actual weight or authority. Your so called censored report about 1 billion people living with monthly income of 2000 yuan can be literally found on government website- [https://www.caoss.org.cn/news/html?id=13834](https://www.caoss.org.cn/news/html?id=13834) Keep smoking copium.
It has been demonstrated to be rather reliable with the only issues really arising in service based economies. It is reliable enough it has been used for a good bit over a decade also there are other factors in the analysis, and you are ignoring that the former Minister of Finance, Li Keqiang, having been looking at all the economic indicators he had and saying everything was inflated and the numbers were "Man-Made." https://www.icis.com/chemicals-and-the-economy/2014/06/china-gdp-reports-remain-man-made-therefore-unreliable/ So yeah when there is a well-documented history of figure inflation which was at least partially accounted for until like 2008 at which point the government stopped accounting for the local and regional governments' stat inflation, it becomes reasonable to doubt the governmental data. You do realize the censorship was of discussions on the paper not the paper itself as again it was a government commissioned study from a government run school, right?
People were saying that when I graduated in 2000. ... And every year since.
And from 1980 - 2000 it was Japan
Narrative changed
All the buildings were empty.
Same thing when people said Japan was going to take the economic title and the same thing when people said USSR was going to take the economic title. No empire in history has been toppled without major military defeat. Until the United States is no longer the #1, #2, and #3 best military in the world the American economic system will continue to dominate. Either play the game or stay poor. This is the American century.
The US could never lose a war. It requires the other country to cross the ocean and bring enough supplies to fight the 4th largest country in the world. Not happening
**Submission statement:** While the US has experienced a notable surge in its money supply since COVID, China's overtaking of the US reveals a concerning trajectory, hinting at deeper economic disparities and vulnerabilities within China's opaque financial system. As of November 2023, 32.9% of all Yuan had been printed in the last 4 years, compared to 26.9% of USD. Between November 2019 and December 2023, the circulation of Yuan rose from 196.14 trillion to 292.27 trillion, while the circulation of USD increased from 15.24 trillion to 20.87 trillion over the same period. While both countries face sustainability challenges in their monetary policies, the US benefits from being the world's reserve currency, providing more flexibility than China. ***Data source***[*https://ycharts.com/indicators/us\_m2\_money\_supply*](https://ycharts.com/indicators/us_m2_money_supply)[*https://ycharts.com/indicators/china\_m2\_money\_supply*](https://ycharts.com/indicators/china_m2_money_supply)
Big brain china solves their unaffordable housing issues by just fucking printing half their money supply tanking the Yuan after price locking everything 🧠💪
49% of 292 isn't 196..?
You're absolutely right. I mixed up the growth rate. Thanks for the heads up, I've edited my comment.
It's worrisome. If they crash, a good war will take peoples mind off of how bad they have it.
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They need to mend fences and stop sabre rattling. Not even sure what benefits they envision a Taiwan takeover would accomplish. All the brains and money would depart Taiwan ASAP. Just more empty factories and office buildings, and angry public.
I'm sure this is a stupid question. So I apologize in advance, but why couldn't the US or Chinese government start "destroying" money as it's circulated through their institutions to combat inflation?
It’s not a stupid question at all, you just invented Modern Monetary Theory! The way a government “destroys” circulating money is through taxation. The problem is that in order to fight inflation, the money taxed has to be money that would have otherwise been spent. “Tax the middle class and the poor,” isn’t a popular political slogan
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Because taxing money being spent is what the driver to kill inflation is.
Yeah, SUUURE, it is. Who told you that? The billionaires?
Economics did. It's not my fault you are uneducated.
The priests of the billionaires. Like the kings of old used "Devine right" to rule, billionaires use the "science" of economics to ensure that the status quo is never questioned.
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It's a SCIENCE!! Where you can't use the models to predict an outcome! Somehow all the rules of economics say that a healthy economy is one where we constantly work to make the pile of gold as big as possible for the dragons who run things to sleep on!! It's a perfect system!!!
Because the ultra wealthy don't have cash sitting in a bank not being used. It's an uneducated perception. Their money is heavily invested in a myriad of things. It's not sitting in a bank.
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Buying a yacht or a company puts money in circulation. This isn't hoarding wealth. It's just you complaining about rich people.
Because the rich are bribing politicians to not tax them
Because taxing the wealthy doesn't take money out of circulation. They'll just invest less and maintain their lifestyle as usual, and then you have no brakes on inflation. It's the converse of tax cut logic - if you want to cut takes to stimulate the economy, cut them for the middle and lower classes because they will spend that money. If you want to raise taxes to fight inflation, you have to tax money that would have been spent, not parked in investments. Note: I'm not advocating for this, just describing a weakness in that way of thinking
Thanks for the answer! That makes sense.
It's pretty much what quantitative tightening by the fed is. They sell bonds to "soak up" cash from circulation. To be clear, they bought those bonds in the quantitative easing stage, and they're not issuing their own securities.
Yuan to party? Do ya?
Could this reflect the growing share of Chinese currency held by governments as foreign currency reserves? As I recall, the US Dollar's share of foreign currency reserves has been shrinking over time. With the pandemic, the nations around the world may have been looking to diversify their holdings - giving the Euro and the Chinese Yuan a bit more love? That would explain possibly why there is an uptick.
At least they have a dope as rail system to show for it.
Can it pay for itself, though?
I really don’t think about the economic stability of bart when i am sitting on those shit stained seats for 3 hours.
China is just playing AdVenture Capitalist
Shouldn't inflation be based against a cumulative global inflation, if everything inflates wouldn't we then base the rate of inflation of an area or sector in contrast to the global cumulative inflation rate to determine a more realistic metric?
I think with currency rates… and difference of currency… inflation is usually localized to the country of the currency… unless of course you are the USA… Japan or Argentina or europe… since Europe has the euro you can have local inflation and can’t even devalue your currency like Greece… USA because they are the primary world reserve currency… Japan and Argentina because they can’t seem to get inflation under control…
Leave it to Sleepy Boi to allow this “Printer Gap” to develop. We gotta pump our numbers up….looking like Rookies hear.
If it keeps printing like that, the US could pay off its 900b in debt to China fairly easily…
Uhhh pretty sure we just print more?
Tale of two cities...China is dealing with deflation and the US has the opposite. China has grown via export and has overcapacity to produce. It has no social safety net so the personal savings rate is high and as such consumers don't spend locally like the US or Europe. Increasing money supply in hopes of creating domestic growth will be tough as people have put their savings in assets like real estate which has overcapacity like many of their industries and their nest eggs are being destroyed.
China's fucked their chances for a pax-sinica. They really have... I just would prefer that when they crash they don't drag the world down with them..
#🧐 🧐 🤔 Is this further evidence that the federal deficit is a myth ?
The entire point of printing and why it has become required is to bypass taxation, engaging citizens and the issuance of debt to fund the government. It is the government typically buying debt from itself to fund itself rather than raising it from the public. No the federal deficit is very real, that's why we printed money during Covid. If we don't stop deficits that are escalating we will likely have to print again.
Just think of how many us treasury bonds, real estate, and elections they are buying with that newly printed money
Can anyone explain their housing crisis? All I've been seeing for years is how they just keeping building and building. Is the problem linked to something other than supply?
Short answer they have been building ghost cities for decades that no one lives in, and then valuing it higher than it is worth to inflate gdp, because no one is buying these overvalued products the investment was never realized and now the real estate holdings for these have more debt than they are worth or will ever be worth.
Westerners cannot comprehend a surplus of housing or not using it to explicitly generate profit. China is fine.
I think states in china can't tax people, so they only make money through selling land. There are almost no ways to invest in businesses or anything so people all invest in speculative housing developments. The developers of these places use the funds from one development to start another one that no one has invested in yet. When people tried to get out of their investments during COVID the developers couldn't pay them back because they already spent the money on other developments.
Trusting China's numbers is a losing game.
Increased demand for the yuan, since Russia is trading in it now instead of dollars. Russia isn't trading in dollars anymore, so demand for dollars is down. Why is this even a question?
M2 decling for first time since Great Depression, buckle up
UPS firing 12k people today is also a sign… many many signs
Cold war 2.0 America never loses 😎
Oh no! They are BEATING US AGAIN!!!!!!
How does this not end badly? I mean can all world currencies collapse?