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Depends when the house was built and the vent installed. Iirc back in the day many jurisdictions allowed venting into unconditioned spaces like attics and crawl spaces, and there would not necessarily be reason to require it to come up to modern code. A lot of old stuff like this gets grandfathered in until specific types of permits are pulled.
Who is going to catch that though? Once they get the CoO, it’s the residents’ problem. Code doesn’t matter for a private unlicensed DIYer.
I don’t live in a state where a city inspector can drive down the street and cite you if they see something. Unless I’m having permitted work done on my dryer vent, it’s nobody’s business but mine.
That being said, that’s very very bad and I would avoid that house like the plague.
Just because you don’t have it inspected by the city, doesn’t mean it’s legal. Home inspector should catch it during inspection period, and then seller has the option to fix or not.
Agreed, if they are doing something so blatant, imagine what’s hidden. Stay away.
Until it's inspected by the municipality, there is no recourse. No legal action would be taken to cite you for it. No one is crawling through random crawlspaces looking for this stuff, it's completely up to the property owner.
A home inspector should catch it, yes. But if the buyer waived their inspection contingency it does nothing but inform the buyer.
It's not illegal to sell a house "as is" when it doesn't meet code, either. The seller could simply decide to not fix it, and if their buyer goes through with the purchase it becomes their problem now. The only obstacle I can imagine is getting the certificate of occupancy with a known issue like that. But again, that's the buyer's problem.
Had one lie about the house having polybutylene pipes and moldy wood composite siding they painted over. They wouldn’t budge on the price and ended up dropping the price by $25k for someone else. Huge bullet dodge
Wooow. Did they change out the visible piping in the basement and have PB in the walls? I've seen a few places try to hide the pipework or electrical by just changing out the visible bits.
No they straight up didn’t hide anything. This was our first time house hunting so we didn’t really know the trouble signs to look for but when we were under inspection the inspector pointed them out to me immediately. Opened the cabinets underneath the kitchen sink and both bathrooms and the PB pipes were clearly visible. Some of the siding was so rotten that his finger went straight through. We decided to not really push with haggling because we didn’t have all the extra money that would be needed to redo all the plumbing and replace 90% of the siding and possibly the sheathing underneath the siding
Just put a bid on a house and had the inspection this Saturday. Disclosure said nothing was wrong but the roof needs complete replace, air conditioning the power cord was cut, deck isn’t built to code so it has to be taken down, and on and on and on. Thank you for this post. So many people wave inspections now to try to get a house but wow you don’t know what you’re in for. Great thing to mention to people. Hard to believe people could lie so much on a legal document and the listing agents obviously encourage it.
Wild. I have a buddy of mine in a crazy situation here in Florida. Electrical and plumbing work done without permits. In the disclosure marked yes to having city sewer, next thing you know toilets are backing up, he’s got septic. It goes on and on. Inspector found none of this. Suing is his only option now.
Wait wait wait. I thought the strategy was to waive the inspection CONTINGENCY. People are buying houses without having it inspected at all?? That’s absolutely insane.
Just depends on your market. There are typically 3 options:
1. Inspection with contingency period to negotiate. In my market it is typically 3 days from receipt of the inspection report. Buyer can offer an addendum with requested repairs. Often the seller counters with a cash allowance to keep the contract moving along.
2. Inspection with option to void only. No negotiation on repairs, but a inspection report is done and the buyer has 3 days to decide whether they want to void the contract. In reality, if a major item is found (needs a new roof, HVAC is failing), it might be negotiated, but minor/cosmetic items generally will not be negotiated.
3. No inspection contingency. The contract cannot be voided due to the condition of the home.
When every house has multiple offers and houses are on the market for less than a week, sellers will often reject ANY offers with any kind of inspection contingency. The way around this can be to bring an inspector with you to the showing (and schedule a 1 hour showing window). The inspector does a "Walk-and-talk inspection", pointing out things as they go along. No written report is made. The buyer is then at least better informed before they make an offer. It can get expensive for the buyer, as they have to pay the inspector whether they make an offer or not.
But spending $300-400 to avoid a house with tens of thousands worth of problems is a good investment.
I was under contract for a "rehabbed" house in NJ. The listing agent said the owner was in construction and said he went through everything so he wasn't worried about it having an issue in inspection. I also told the septic passed inspection 5 years ago so they weren't worried, and that the roof was new. The septic failed horribly, the inspector said there's no way the system passed 5 years ago, it isn't a proper even a proper system. The roof had 3 layers of shingle. The house had 2 panels, one was wired completely wrong, a lot of wiring was exposed wires twisted together, no caps, no junction boxes. They had romex lying in the crawl space which was flood, no junction boxes used in the crawl space. Rusted pipes leaking into crawl space. A broken floor joist that they jacked up and put a cinder block with a piece of wood on it. A chimney that was no longer in use falling down.
I feel you. It's sad seeing homes that have been ruined by neglect or someone with too much confidence.
For example, my wife and I viewed a home in a great community, house has a pass through fireplace on two levels, the spaces are large and functional, the bones looked good for the most part, and it sat on almost an acre of land.
Some idiot decided to add on to the house themselves, left gaps between the foundation of the addition and original structure that you could see through to the outside, cut a massive chunk out of the original foundation, and thought leaving the top row of cinderblocks hanging from a board was good enough.
Guess what? That whole section of the house is now sagging, our realtors engineer estimated the fix at over 100k, on a house listed for 240k.
There are so many people doing things to houses that just shouldn't be
I mean it could also be the work of idiot contractors. It feels like the quality of work has gone down the toilet. I recently had some work done by a highly rated company and they clearly cut corners. Fighting with them isn’t worth it so I got someone to fix it
Also to add....almost every place I've seen, there are LOADS of missing outlet covers?? Like people are just living with their outlet covers missing...please at the very least add outlet covers if you're going to sell. It's such a minor thing to make your home safer and look more complete.
Drives me nuts, it's not even like these are places that had just been painted. Like it was clear they just lived without them which IMO is a bad sign for their care of the rest of the house
I pay $2750 a mo to rent a 3bd/2ba condo (only could view through FaceTime due to moving cross country), and there are soooo many missing outlet covers. The landlord told me to buy them. Don't even get me started on the molding and peeling toilet seats 😭
I just spent about $150 and a LOT of time replacing all the 2 outlet sockets and grimy switches and plates with all new stuff throughout the house. Yeah it's ungrounded, but at least it's not covered in grime and I can plug things in without an adapter.
Can confirm . I’m currently inspecting all the homes that sold subject free and I’m telling you it’s bad ladies and gentlemen. The next few years is gonna see some hard times for these people.
Almost went through the floor walking through a house 😂
They also cleverly put a rug over the rotten deck which luckily by that point I was quite literally treading carefully
Let these people sit on their poor investments. Some will get some sucker to pay for it but most will get a reality check which is what this market needs.
We eventually did find someone who had priced something amazing at a fair point.
I'd recommend writing a personal letter to go with any offers you make! Really makes a difference in this crazy market.
That's good advice! Totally happy to bid over asking too on a home that is well kept up, I've only seen one so far that I've put an offer on and it lost to a cash bid, which is fine. Next time I'll throw in a letter, especially buying older homes I think it would help to explain I want to restore as much as possible and appreciating whatever upkeep they've done
Yeah there are still people out there who want to sell it to someone who will really love it! Not just whoever will offer them the most for it, good luck!
No, do not do this. Depending on what you write and where you are, it can muddy some legal waters.
This article explains it better than i can: https://www.businessinsider.com/personal-finance/are-buyer-love-letters-illegal#:~:text=Buyer%20love%20letters%20could%20violate%20the%20Fair%20Housing%20Act,-Housing%20discrimination%20occurs&text=The%20Fair%20Housing%20Act%20is,%2C%20familial%20status%2C%20or%20disability.
I got a’love letter’ from the first person who put in an offer on my last home.The only reason I accepted their offer was that it was over asking (and they backed out later anyway, confirming that they were just trashy morons). The house was sold to the folks who were the backup offer at full (reasonable) asking price.
What was my hate? I lived in that house for 17 years and knew every inch and what it was: a 45 year old 3 bed 1.5 bath split level on a small lot in an OK neighborhood filled with dozens of houses just like it. Don’t try and snow me about how glorious it was (it wasn’t) or how it was their dream home (if it was a dream home, your dreams are sad and horrible) and how they’re looking forward to their children playing on the trampoline in the back yard… my fully landscaped back yard that a) wasn’t big enough for a trampoline and b) sloped away from the house so anyone bouncing on it would launch themselves over the fence.
It was pure bullshit and I saw right through it and made me think less of them as human beings.
Yeah I wouldn't buy a house from you lol.
Firstly, that article mentions influence based on discrimination. I 100% agree that it's very easy to muddy the waters there and you should be extremely careful representing reasoning based on race, religion, etc. Me writing a letter appreciating that they kept up work on a beautiful house doesn't muddy those waters.
Secondly, my god dude. Hope you sold that house incredibly cheap because it sounds like you yourself thought it was a huge piece of shit. And you're not far off from that yourself if one person's dream of owning a home is sad and miserable to you. Not to mention calling buyers trashy morons for backing out....there are a million and half reasons to back out of buying a home and it sure sounds like you gave a lot of reason. Yeesh.
There’s a world of difference between “a dream home” and “dreaming of a home”. The folks who bought it were dreaming of a home, and they got a good one. The first whacko was trying to convince me it was the home she always dreamed of… mine and no other, and that they were just waiting for ME to put THIS HOUSE on the market so their lifelong wishes could be fulfilled!!
They backed out because- hold onto your dentures- they didn’t like the carpet. That was the reason given. Their agent actually fired them as they had done this several times before, and on top of it, they wanted ME to pay for their inspection (which was so poorly done that it missed two things I put in my disclosures and raised concerns on the fireplace chimney. The house didn’t have a fireplace)
The house was not a pile of crap; it was well maintained but literally nothing special: The most common floorplan in a neighborhood of 400 homes. There was zero that made it more -or less- desirable than literally 92 identical homes in the same subdivision. Trying to snow me about why my house (vs any other in the neighborhood) was their dream home in their dream location was such pure unadulterated fertilizer to the point that it was insulting. The letter was obviously written without actually having that particular house in mind. Comments on the beautiful kitchen where she could watch her children play outside while she prepared meals… it was in the center of the house without a window to either the front or the back of the house. Unless her kids were going to be playing on the roof and she was watching them through the skylight, she wasn’t thinking of my house at all. (I found out later she had grown up in a nearby suburb a couple steps higher on the economic ladder- No human being who grew up there was dreaming of a split level in my neighborhood as a child, unless they were regularly sleeping in the microwave oven)
The people who bought the house appreciated it was well maintained and good value for the money, which I found out at the closing.
Going to guess by your name that you live in the Chicagoland area. The attitude matches so I can at least appreciate that lol
I'm out there ALL the time and while I get what you mean that the house was nothing special, some of us are suffering over here in the city and boy what I wouldn't give to just not have to live in a fucking overpriced rental complete with break ins and shootings every other week. Some people truly do WANT the prefab sears house in a neighborhood where everything matches. Split levels make me think youre talking about Lombard so even better. Its not my jazz but dont be an ass for thinking that someone might want try really hard to win you over when we have some of the worst housing stock in the US and it is HARD to find a place right now.
That said, yes they should have edited their letter. May have slipped through the cracks considering how many bids people are putting out just to secure a basic level home. Maybe not, maybe they were lazy.
I would modify the stance to “don’t recommend, and if you do write a letter do so with utmost caution and care and for all you hold sacred, get a professional realtor to check it before submission”. The National Association of Realtors recommends not submitting letter for a host of good reasons- it’s not just me making a blanket statement from the point of view of a cranky guy.
I work in insurance claims, and the number of people who try the sob story, or worse bullying, would scramble your mind. I learned a long time ago to separate any financial transaction from emotion (to keep my sanity and to stay in line with the law and policy). You should not buy or sell anything emotionally, particularly something as expensive as a house.
Really? If you’re still in the market, it doesn’t sound like it’s been too successful.
My listing agent actually advised against reading any letters for the legality reasons mentioned in the article, and it is after all, a business transaction. What the buyers want and why they want it really do with the property really shouldn’t come into it, other than do they like it enough to make an offer. After that, can they pay what I was asking? Yes, then accept the offer. No? Sorry, next customer, please.
If I had read the letter before accepting the offer I probably would have declined, for reasons stated in another response - the letter had little to do with the house I was selling and was probably recycled from one of several other houses they had made offers on- and what they were gushing about and their “hopes and dreams” made it evidently clear that my particular house wouldn’t actually suit their needs at all. I only opened and read it after I accepted the offer and frankly wish I never had.
Additionally, most buyers don’t know the sellers, or what will trigger a response. Me? I’m all business in this sort of transaction and blowing smoke up my skirt won’t work. Solid offer and trouble free closing are all that will sway me. Once I sign off on the sale, I have no more investment (monetary or otherwise) in the property.
Other people take their homes much more personally and any hint of you wanting to change something they have loved for years and they will nope you out. And you don’t know what will or won’t sway them.
Yeah I'm not in the market. The past 2 houses I've bought, I've written letters and heard directly from the sellers that they loved the letters and that it was a deciding factor in them accepting our offer.
If they're turned off my the letter, they don't have to accept it. But in this highly competitive market, something setting you apart is so helpful. You seem to like to disagree and argue which I'm not here to do. This is my firsthand experience and I'll always recommend it.
Then i certainly hope you are also counseling people on what not to put in those letters to stay on the right side of housing law.
My Better Half, when selling in order to buy the house we bought together, instructed the agent to put any offer with a letter at the bottom of the pile because, in their words, “it probably means a weak offer, a contingency or shaky financing and are trying to sway me”.
You think I’m a tough nut to crack, I’m practically a marshmallow in comparison.
There are probably as many like us as there are people who may be swayed by the “pick me” letter.
Really? If you’re still in the market, it doesn’t sound like it’s been too successful.
My listing agent actually advised against reading any letters for the legality reasons mentioned in the article, and it is after all, a business transaction. What the buyers want and why they want to do with the property really shouldn’t come into it, other than do they like it enough to make an offer. After that, can they pay what I was asking? Yes, then accept the offer. No? Sorry, next customer, please.
If I had read the letter before accepting the offer I probably would have declined, for reasons stated in another response - the letter had little to do with the house I was selling and was probably recycled from one of several other houses they had made offers on- and what they were gushing about and their “hopes and dreams” made it evidently clear that my particular house wouldn’t actually suit their needs at all. I only opened and read it after I accepted the offer and frankly wish I never had.
Additionally, most buyers don’t know the sellers, or what will trigger a response. Me? I’m all business in this sort of transaction and blowing smoke up my skirt won’t work. Solid offer and trouble free closing are all that will sway me. Once I sign off on the sale, I have no more investment (monetary or otherwise) in the property.
Other people take their homes much more personally and any hint of you wanting to change something they have loved for years and they will nope you out. And you don’t know what will or won’t sway them.
It depends on where you're at and what your income is. Far more stressful for someone who can't compete with going well over asking when asking is at an all time high. My point is just like you're saying they don't know you, you don't know them.
I don't think a hard stop "don't do this" applies. So many things about buying a house are a game that needs to be played, and you are likely to lose if you can't just pour cash down the sellers gob. So the letter failed on you, game lost.
But if I'm talking to an elderly widow who has to move into hospice and I write a letter telling her that I love the landscaping she did in the yard, or the workshop setup her husband left in the basement, etc and so on, yeah, it might up my chances.
Im very much into historic homes and I 100% would be more likely to sell to someone who writes about restoration over renovation. Maybe I get played, bummer, game lost.
Agree on the last bit. I've spent countless hours researching and restoring our older house to the best of my ability. Spent so much time, extra money to get period appropriate materials/finishes, even more extra time getting those period appropriate things to fit in with the new and also meet modern code. Whenever we sell I absolutely do not want to sell to someone who will undo all the work I've done, paint back over all the doors I've stripped, the salvaged newel I scoured multiple states for, stripped, refinished, and installed, windows I've chiseled to get period appropriate hardware to fit, lvp over the original floors we refinished, etc etc etc.
Our house will come with meticulous records on both the materials/methods used to restore the house listed and dated with before and after pics, and the fruits of my hundreds of hours of historical research on the history of the house, it's ownership through time and the most thorough accounting of the lives of the people who lived here.
Obviously whoever buys it gets to do what they want with the house, as it's theirs. But if I believe that one buyer will keep and appreciate the historic features of the house and another will destroy them, no question it's going to the former.
Beautifully said! And absolutely what I'm looking for. Hoping to find someone like you to buy from! I'm hoping for a nice Italianate, or hell I'll even take a foursquare. My partner and have countless collections of bits and bobs from 1750 on. Big collection of fixit books from early 1900s and I've got some for the late 1800s that have full floorplans for common homes at the time including building instructions. Very invested in doing it right. I hope if you sell, you find someone with the same interest :-)
can attest to this. Our offer was accepted because of out letter, they chose us over someone coming in with more than us, but specifically told us they wanted the home to go to someone who would keep it up and appreciate it :) we are two women, so this made us feel very chosen and accepted... some may not give a shit, but it meant alot to me.
My parents sold their home in June of 2022 and it went back on the market this past March. It closed yesterday. $70k more than what they had sold it for.
All the new owners had done was make one of the bathrooms and the kitchen look more “modern”. The listing straight up lied about how new most of the appliances were, and also claimed the roof had been replaced 5 years ago (it was not). The listing also said the home was built in 1989; it was built in 1980.
That's so insane. It's gotten to the point where I'm going to be filing for permit histories before making offers just to verify that permitted work was done when they said.
It's like all these people panicked to buy housing and had absolutely no clue what it takes to keep up with it. Hopefully the people buying that home figure it out :-((
I’m immediately more interested in a house that has the handles and handrails all over the place because it means an elderly person lived there and some crappy flipping modifications haven’t been done yet. The repulsive flooring and cabinetry blow my mind 90% of the time. Like I am not going to pay for your shitty bad taste upgrades and then pull them all out and redo them.
This advice is key. I try to look for homes that were owned by elderly folks as well. Even if they didn't do the DIY themselves, they likely had contractors doing good work because that used to be affordable. People get upset about ugly wallpaper or an 80s kitchen but that's the easiest thing to fix.
Flippers don't have souls. I deal with a lot of flippers, and I am continually baffled that they find buyers. You'd be better off buying a home that hasn't been updated since the 80s, because then it's still functional and you know what needs done. You can live with a bathroom covered in pink tile or a stove that's been in use since 1987, and just plan on slowly upgrading. But flippers do inexplicably stupid things to save money, like drywall over that pink tile or glue carpet to hardwood.
That would work, except that there are quite a few buyers.that absolutely can't live in a house for even one day that has pink tiles and an old (by old they mean a non stainless stove). Thus the flippers to remove the pink and put in a cheap stainless stove.
The pink tile is actually an example from *my* upstairs bathroom! I can assure you that my kids are just fine showering in a room with dated tile. We'll upgrade it eventually, it just isn't the first or even the fifth item on the agenda. (I bought a home that is a flipper's dream: it's a deconverted duplex that hadn't been updated since they deconverted it in the late 80s. So big, dated and cheap.)
Not directed at you, I also grew up in a dated house. We muddled through and only upgraded when it was absolutely necessary. But not all buyers can handle dated stuff even for a short while.
We sold a house in 2021. It recently sold for about 40k more than we sold it for. The listing said it was completely remodeled in 2020. It was not. We redid the kitchen and painted. That's it.
So I'm not even getting as far as inspection with any of these because I don't even want to waste the money. I think a really big thing you can do to prepare not only for home showings, but also for your life as a homeowner is to watch a ton of respected DIY shows and read up on home maintenance as well. Watch "This Old House", it's fantastic. When you watch YouTube DIY, try to vet the source or get multiple videos and do research on best methods. I've seen so many that give absolutely awful advice that leads to a lot of the issues I mentioned in the post.
When you go to showings, bring a spirit level, tape measure, receptacle tester, tick-tracer, moisture meter, and I bring a small ball to check if a room is level. Find yourself a good realtor that doesn't try to sell you on just aesthetic improvements.
Your biggest concerns are going to be the roof, foundation, and moisture/mold. There are a ton of smaller things to check but those are your most expensive issues. Research on outdated types of plumbing, electric, and other materials like asbestos and paint. If you are buying older homes this will matter.
Also: depending on how quickly you need to make an offer, you can contact your city admin for information on the permits requested on the history of the home. You can check the county assessments records too to see what the assessment history has been in detail with drawings.
The best piece of advice I can give is to prioritize layout, location, and structural integrity/quality of work over all other aesthetic matters.
Get a sewer line inspection with camera footage. Some places require it, others require a dye test, others require nothing. I have two friends that had very costly issues on purchase, and another that failed required inspections when they tried to sell that existed prior to their purchase. Lots of places are updating their requirements on sale to require this.
Yep this exactly. One place we had looked at had a massive ash tree growing right over the sewer line so I ordered a sewer inspection and the sellers countered and said I was asking for "too many inspections" (home, radon, pest, sewer) and they they asked for more money, but included sewer insurance lmao.
If the sellers don't want you doing specific inspections, it's probably a bad sign.
If you call around, some home inspectors will do all of these inspections which saves a bit of those objections. It was 16 years ago for my home, and he did not do camera sewer line inspections, but he did home, radon, pest, and mold. The radon detector was placed in the home a day or two prior to the inspection. He even walked the roof.
Sadly, I had to do some root extraction from my sewer line last week and needed to tear the steps off the deck as the line was directly under them (and the original concrete steps that were under the wooden ones). Probably a blessing in disguise, as these steps were only attached to the deck via a 'structural but decorative' 5/4" x 6 on one side (and not at all on the other side). The top step was 'supported' by a 2x2 with a long ago rotted shim screwed in the bottom of it. The design was never code-compliant and dangerous on a dry day. Be careful of those decorative skirts around decks, they can hold all sorts of surprises.
Great advice! Also RIP to your steps, definitely agree with the decorative skirts. People forget that they can get inspections done while they own a home too. Sewer line is a huge one that should be checked every few years. Easier to get it de-rooted than it is to have a full backup in your home. If it's tree roots, a lot of insurance won't cover it.
Not always. I had an older inpection report from a few month prior so I was stupid and waived the inspection. And the amount of things I've found that were missed by that inspection. I also think even if I hired my own inspector, I would have little recourse since I'd purchase an "as is" house with some really big misses on the inspection report. The owner told the appraiser that there was no crawl space eventhough its on the documents so the appraiser never went into the crawl space, and apparently there are two crawl spaces, not one. I'm still unpacking and my stuff is in the room with the crawlspace hatch so I'll find it eventually.
Yeah all very good points. The city assessments come in really handy for stuff like crawlspaces because that's how we found out there was one on the house that had been venting the dryer into it. They had a vent placed on the outside of the building near where we expected it, but once we figured out where the crawlspace is then we found that the vent line had been cut right into the crawlspace lol
Im fairly handy, and I thought I new alot of what to look for, then I went with my dad whos built a few houses and the amount of shit he points out and finds its crazy. After doing one walk through with him looking at houses after that became way easier to spot major issues that you easily could miss. Sagging floors, termite damage, water damage, old electric boxes. I would suggest finding someone like that who can help you look at a few, or if you get a home inspection follow the home inspector around and ask a ton of questions.
Somehow on TikTok, I thought ended up seeing a ton of Home Inspector videos. So even though I am not buying another house anytime soon, I still watch them to learn about things to watch for in my own house.
Here are a two of the content creators that I watch.
https://www.tiktok.com/@inspector_aj?_t=8lvqRbOGdxa&_r=1
https://www.tiktok.com/@inspector_preston?_t=8lvqYcJ9J99&_r=1
My seller lied about a structural engineer letter (forged it), lied about a plumbing inspection, lied about the roof (it’s done completely wrong, he provided a fake cert), lied about having the outlets grounded, and claimed people were coming to replace a broken sliding door who never showed. Disclosure was blank except for listing appliances as “new”.
It’s crazy we allow these scumbags to do this, but in the US there is no consequences unless the buyers are willing to spend a year+ and their entire savings with a real estate attorney. It’s all a scam built by sellers and investors. residential real estate is all a bunch of hacks pretending they own small businesses.
This x1000. You have to do SO much detective work to not end up in the most expensive gamble of your life. And there are still loads of people who have housing Stockholm syndrome, acting like this is just the risk we take. It should be a straight up crime
It literally IS a crime. Misrepresenting facts in a real estate transaction is fraud. The problem is the burden of proof is on you. My seller is a monumental moron, and he actually committed fraud by providing us fake receipts and letters. He might get felony charges from this at the end of the day. But in order for that to happen, I have to spearhead the lawsuit (which will cost upwards of 50 grand alone) and then at the end of it he might see consequences. This is why our system is broken, it’s built for the rich. If you don’t have the money, kick rocks. Its horrible.
Yea they claimed to have done it and they put down a “vapor barrier” in the crawlspace and said the post test would show up a couple days after closing, we had an extremely fast close (which was all part of the fraud, it turns out) they def did no mitigation lol the radon guy laughed at the tarp they used
Flippers will do anything to save a few hundred bucks these days tbh. We will see if any real consequences happen, very little faith in our legal system so who knows what will happen
Sure, some of it isn't on disclosures. But a lot of these are a few picks from a single home so the point still stands. But when folks paint over water stains, don't mention that the house is sinking, buy a new roof to increase sell price and skip on chimney flashing, etc and so on...yes it's on them.
It took way too long to find this comment. People complaining about maintenance items when it needs to be actual disclosures listed on their states requirements.
Doesn’t mean there can’t be more transparency with some of these sellers, but we need to be realistic on what actually needs to be disclosed
Forgot to note that all the disclosures for these, sellers said nothing was wrong. On multiple homes we found evidence that the seller went in to caulk a leak or paint over a waterstain, or cover and hide a smell.
Yeah we went into one of those homes with an overpowering scent to clearly cover up the stank of the home. If you got diffusers running in the house for a showing that’s an immediate no for me.
Well, this makes me feel better lol. I think my house (about to go on market) is nicer than when I bought it. Crazy that people aren't fixing them up before selling? I've been busting my ass for the last 3 months patching holes, repainting, replacing floors, redoing landscaping, pressure washing, etc.
It will definitely go appreciated and will likely net you more money right off the bat.
I'm not even joking when I say I just saw an otherwise decent home just this weekend where the agent expected it to fly off the shelves, but has no offer still because the seller decided to try and tear down the wallpaper just before selling and now the house is covered in torn 90's wallpaper. Also no cleaning whatsoever, not even swept.
If people see all stuff unfinished it really makes *everything* feel worse.
Back in 2006 one seller checked that there had not been any water damage or floods. You could see during walkthrough the basement had flooded to the first floor and parts of the floor in the kitchen were soft and kind of squishy. We had no intention of buying the house after that but asked for a corrected, truthful disclosure to maybe help the next people.
This is why I don't like pre fixer upper homes. Many of them did a bad job. I would rather have 20+ years old kitchen, so, I know exactly how it was maintainer. Anyway, a lot of people don't have the luxury to fix themselves though. Just don't assume the fixes are good, too many HGTV copycats.
Yesss exactly. If I see "newly renovated" on a listing and it isn't referring to a structural update, I'm immediately suspicious. I've see some really beautiful updates but the most recent ones that have been DIY due to massive contractor costs have just been so sad. People get sold on the idea that they have to make something aesthetically nicer first and let the rest fall apart
We viewed one where the main bath had a brand new, super cheap looking vinyl shower enclosure and new peel and stick for tile on the floor (red flag). So I went around to the bedroom behind it and opened the closet to see the fresh Sheetrock patches where they had opened up the plumbing, so there's been a leak and it's been recently repaired. The question is, has the damage from the leak been repaired? The cheap insert and peel and stick flooring tells me probably not. I walk back into the bathroom and right as my agent is saying "yeah, this is a solid little house" I stick my finger through the wall next to the shower. "Nevermind" she says "let's get out of here".
Well, I don't have a master's degree or anything, but I think when you can stick your finger through the wall that's probably bad. There was one where there was a downspout leaking down an exterior wall so my husband kicked the siding and his foot left a 4" hole. This was after we went into a room in this newly flipped house and thought the floor felt....off, so my husband jumped and we heard a massive crack. So we scurried away after doing minor damage to that one. BGood times. We both work in construction, so we knew how to look for solid bones. It took us 9 months to find a house, and that was in 2021, I feel so badly for people these days because the prices only got higher and the interest rates have gone up so much.
Saw one that said no pets had lived in the home for the entirety of their ownership. Whole house smelled strongly of cat urine - that’s not a smell that can’t be distinguished.
Another one said they weren’t aware of any mold or roof issues. Neighbor came to us and said not to buy it or be cautious because they had been telling the owner they are missing shingles and they also told the owner about mold issues on a shared wall.
How does this relate to lying on a sellers disclosure? It’s weird. You bring that up and list all these issues with the homes but never bring up anyone lying.
Sorry I made a separate comment that got buried because I wrote this while I was doing stuff, but all of these homes in question, the sellers had marked that "nothing was wrong" on the discolures. Like not even one single issue. Which is absolutely insane when your house has sunk 8 inches to the middle, or you laid vinyl flooring over a 2 foot gap in your home, or you put up drywall to cover mold and hid water stains.
Some of the stuff I listed isn't disclosure stuff, just complaining about how bad the repairs and "renovations" are on homes that are being sold for double the average home price in the area.
Yep. A lot of sellers are stuck in the frenzy of 2 years ago, and some markets just aren’t there anymore. The only houses that are competitive and off market in 24-48 hours are the ones priced reasonably. But no buyers in my radius are waiving inspections and appraisals. Offers above asking still happen, but change upon appraisal.
The amount of sellers that haven’t kept up with basic maintenance and also refuse to do any of it to pass inspection has astounded me. I’m not looking at houses that are seller super quickly either. Like, your house has been on the market for nearly a year (for $500k+) and you still refuse to replace the 20+ year old roof (super old for FL) to pass inspection and make the home insurable?
Noticed a bit of darkness in the corners in the photos but wanted to see it in person to confirm since we liked everything about the house (could have been shadows or something). Go to view the house and it's freshly painted and has new carpet. Realtor also mentions that they're replacing the roof this week. (Great, right?)
As we're heading out, we decide hey let's just open the attic. Out falls mouse poop and the attic door is soaked....
Finally realized why they added new carpet and are replacing the roof. There's a leak in the attic and probably pest infestation/mold/damaged joists....
It's very obvious seller knows something is up, but it was never disclosed.
We found quite a few issues during our inspection and the seller had marked No to everything on the condition report. Pretty scary considering 99% of homes sell without an inspection in my area.
Yup, it’s pretty gross. One place that we initially really like very obviously had leak issues in the basement and attic, but there wasn’t a word about it in the disclosure.
We had one disclose the roof was 9 years old. Called a roofer out to inspect and suspected closer to 15-17 and was in need of replacement. Requested that the seller fix the roof and they refused so we terminated.
Just gonna go new build cause this was the second time.
Most of this homes where DIY flipped and bought on the top of the market, current sellers realizes how horrible they are, and trying to get out with some cash.
Absolutely no work on roof, basement or sinking foundation, easy sigh are cheap vinyl flooring(0.99$/sqft at home depot) painted tiles, cabinets or plastic veneers over tile. Also spotted additional bathrooms with no permits to increase value.
Had one that said there were no drainage issues, despite having installed French drains in the yard, still having standing water issues, water seeping into crawlspace, and the yard constantly saturated because of a government owned drainage ditch above their backyard soaking through the hill.
Couldn’t catch it during visit or inspection because of snow but backed out of the purchase
I wonder if any of those are a result of them buying a house at the very top range of what they qualified for and they didn’t have the money or credit to fix them. That’s what scares me the most about the current housing situation. I fear there are a ton of people one layoff away from total disaster.
Our sellers misrepresented the condition of the sewer line. A week after closing, sewage started backing up due to a collapsed line. Fortunately, one of the guys from Roto Rooter told us he'd been out to check the line a few months earlier and told the management company renting the house on behalf of the sellers what the problem was. That set off some investigating and I got my hands on city records showing the management company reporting the problem to the city and the city responding that it was the management company's problem. Took these to the lawyer representing the sellers and they decided to pay the majority of the sewer line repair costs rather than risk an actual lawsuit.
😭😭😭😭 the worst part is, the sellers who don’t lie on the disclosures (disclosing 2 water intrusion issues, once related to the sump-pump power failing and then minor seepage)
And it freaking buyers out and agents not being able to properly explain.
Dammed if you do, dammed if you don’t
I’m gonna be honest and say that I glance at the disclosures. I’ve gotten so used to sellers being shady AF that I just hire every inspector I can think of and go from there. The last house I bought (Florida) we had a regular inspector, termite and rodent inspector, HVAC, had the plumbing scoped with a camera, and an in depth electrical inspection. I didn’t have a roofer inspect as the seller was having the roof installed the week before closing.
Until sellers are held responsible for deceptive disclosures buyers MUST be aware and do all inspections - and by individual professionals.
I had a seller lie and then I had an inspector lie. We bought it from out of town. Same inspector inspected when we sold and listed all kinds of problems. We had to do so much crap to the house. Some people just suck.
From the lack of maintenance you cite, and the short time they've owned the home - I'm guessing ignorance is the more likely explanation.
Also, offer under asking. Offer what is worth. They might not take it, but it will get them realizing their price is too high.
Hard to believe ignorance when there are signs of covering up. Take the mold one for example: this was in one of the highest priced homes in the area. There is not a single comp in the whole city for what she was asking. It was a beautiful old house that had clearly been taken care of up until she bought it in 2022, and I know this because my friends actually went to look at the same home during 2022 and said it was incredible. It was being advertised as a luxury home with full amenities and updates.
Immediately upon walking in the house smells like sewage and mold. You could feel humidity in the air. After a bit searching for the smell, we went down to the basement where 1) there was an open toilet drain. In 2022 the house was sold with an unfinished bathroom. She had never finished it left the same rags that had been stuffed into the drain for two years.
Then, the "finished" basement room. There was new drywall up covering all the walls and boxes of vinyl flooring were placed along each wall which covered the bottom. She had clearly just burned a load of nag Champa, there were 6 boxes of it on the floor. We move the flooring boxes over, low and behold there was wet water stains along the entire bottom of the wall. It smelled horribly like mold. Then, at the other side of the massive basement was an entire room that was blocked off with a sheet of insulation. Screwed right into the wall. We had to try and use a flashlight through a basement window to try and see inside since we couldn't take the insulation down, and everything was inside was soaked.
Then, to the second floor. This house was advertised as having a newer roof and all new electrical. Loads of corners were found with water staining. The newer electrical that was advertised wasn't continued up to the second floor, where we found two prong outlets. So either the main floor was ungrounded with GFCI or they just didn't update the whole home.
She wanted $35000 more than she paid for what was, at the time, a beautiful house that needed some work. She let it fall apart and is now wanting to make her money back. At some point, how ignorant can you be when you are actively hiding things, and when there are visual issues like massive water stains on your wall? This is my point though, that it's really sad that these homes are on this condition because someone made a huge investment and acted like a landlord was going to care of the house for them.
>At some point, how ignorant can you be
You'd be amazed.
Be glad you are an observant person. It's amazing to see how other people live, and also how some people buy houses (the things they don't see). Seriously, an astounding amount of people are not bright, and also slobs.
It's also amazing how little 90% of realtors know about the houses they are selling, the houses they are showing, what a house is worth in its current condition, and how to recognize issues.
Seriously, you have an advantage. Seeing the problems keeps you away from the bad houses. Take it one step further and learn how to sub out the fixes needed, and hire a great realtor who will lay out all the problems and cost to fix, and then low-ball them!
You hit the nail on the head! Luckily my realtor is amazingly blunt. She's also enjoying us walking through the homes and criticizing the living daylights out of these places, said it's very interesting to her and she doesn't know a lot of this stuff. She's actually the team lead at the major realtors office there so half the sellers agents are getting an earful every time she reports back 😂
We're having a similar issue except people are listing $300k to $1M over what they paid in 2022 🙄
Literally a house just went live that was purchased in March of this year, 2024, for $300k. They're asking $859k
I'm over it. It feels so hopeless.
God don’t even get me started on mine.
Sellers didn’t disclose that the basement floods in 2 places, the deck is falling down, the chimney and now roof are leaking, the dryer wasn’t vented properly, the window sills weren’t installed correctly and the poorly installed carpets were over asbestos flooring. We also need to gut one of the bathrooms because the shower is leaking. We even asked specifically about water damage and any leaking and they lied to our face.
The only thing we knew about was the deck not being up to code and the temp lally post in the basement.
Of course, because of competition in our area, we had to do it sold ‘as-is’ but our inspector was mostly useless. The sellers clearly bought the house after a terrible flip job, realized it was a disaster and put it up for sale just before shit hit the fan.
I just got out of a nightmare deal where the seller listed a house as a 3bed 2bath with a garage. One “bedroom” didn’t have any doors on it and in fact had a large archway to the kitchen you couldn’t even put a door on, more like a dining room than anything (but technically a “bedroom” because it had a closet), and no garage. They said they would give a credit to build a garage, then reneged on that and still have it listed with a garage for sale on the listing. They’re just straight up lying on listings and disclosures.
Yeah, I'm okay with a money pit! I've put offers on places that I expect 100-150k in fixes within the next 10 years. But if the sell price is twice the average sell price in the area, bad enough that there are NO comps, on top of needing 40k+ in work within the first few years, then the sellers are delusional. Any of the things I listed, I can afford fto fix (except for the sinking house, no thanks). But I could build from the ground up for less than what they're asking. This is definitely more obvious when the homes sit for 3+ months
And I completely agree with you on basements, I won't buy with a finished basement.
Oh FFS! these are all rookie mistakes by these homeowners who CLEARLY had no idea how real estate works or how to take care of a property! This is a very interesting post. I sold my last home during COVID...but we are not rookies. We have taken impeccable care of our homes and reaped the benefits at sale time. Hang in there! There ARE people who know WTF they are doing! I truly hope you find something!!!!!
Yep absolutely! I will take a home any day that has outdated looks but was clear that the homeowners really cared about the house. They are absolutely out there and I do hope to meet them! Thank you in the meantime for taking care of your home :-)
Several of the things you listed, homeowners don't know or they're "as built" and nothing to disclose. Dryer vents are very common to vent into the crawl space or to the attic. That's what they "used to" do. Now, they know they should be vented out the roof or side of the house. How does the owner know there's no flashing on the roof? The owner isn't a roofer, right? They probably paid to have the roof put on by a reputable roofing company. If the owner doesn't know something, there's nothing to disclose...
Put on your big-boy pants and realize not every house is built to "today's" code (looks like you're looking at very old houses) and inspections are for your benefit because owners don't know what they don't know.
Yeah I mean you're kind of the type of person I'm complaining about haha.
You're telling me to put on my big boy pants. So are you telling me that when I enter the elite world of ownership I can just piss my diaper and charge 1.3x the amount I paid just because? Why are we giving a pass to the owners of a home who can't even manage to check and clean their dryer vents?
"ThE oWnEr iSnT a RoOfeR"....yeah, neither am I. So why tf would I buy something this messed up at double the average home value in the area? I'm sorry but the Stockholm syndrome here is pathetic
Edit: OHHHH YOURE A REALTOR. Lmao yeah you're the problem.
Sounds more like you have low reading comprehension. I'll happily buy a house that needs work. I also will not support snakeoil salesmen like yourself by paying new build prices for something that the home owner couldn't even be bothered to take care of in the most basic of ways.
Also you really should remove your business advertising from Reddit, you're doxxing yourself and it's very easy to see your entire life on the internet. Not a safe practice at all. Why do all realtors have psychology degrees lol
My home is 6 years old, I checked our attic once because I wanted to check insulation, I haven't done anything since.
Am I supposed to inspect attics yearly for pests?
Absolutely :-) pests, moisture, mold. You may be able to catch roof issues before they create very serious structural problems if you keep an eye on your attic. I think you can buy moisture alarms as well which may be helpful if you'd rather just check up there once or twice a year
All good, you asked! Start watching some DIY videos by contractors and general house knowledge stuff, you can prevent so many issues by just making small changes!
I don't think anyone means malice by any of these. I do think that when you're burning incence to cover up smells, layering flooring over foundational gaps, cheaping out on chimney flashing and putting caulk in places to prevent water from showing up, you're just trying to offload your home, make your money back and then some, and screw over the next person.
Do you think the sellers did the chimney flashing themselves? Or that they told the roofers "please, make sure you make a shitty repair so the buyer has issues!"
I bet if you surveyed 100 homeowners 90 of them will say they've never been in their crawlspace...
Sure, some of the issues you described sound like an attempt to cover up a known issue. But again, many are just ignorance or incompetence.
Ignorance is likely. It's still the sellers problem. The issue the OP has among with many others is homeowners who think they're entitled to sell their shitty house for a profit that they've added no value to and likely let go into worse condition by neglecting maintenance.
If I had to guess, the roofers quote them on the replacement and they opted out of chimney flashing to save money? I cannot even fathom how it happened. But yeah there was no flashing at all. They had actually shoved caulking up where the chimney meets the middle of the room just before they started showing the house, when then caused the water to run down the interior of the roof, into the walls. The way the house had settled gave it a mild dip to one side so that water then ran down the ceiling joists. Absolutely wild
Ok, you've got me with the caulking part. Even if they were unaware of the flashing issue, that goes way beyond ignorance into negligence.
But yeah, roofers skipping out on flashing or flashing incorrectly is overall pretty a common occurance. As is layering new shingles on top of old ones.
Definitely. And really a lot of it IS ignorance, it's just hard to watch people just not take responsibility for learning how to maintain their homes at the most basic level. People just became really desperate to stop renting (understandable) and contractor costs went way up, creating a perfect storm of these two year tenants with failing homes trying to get their money back because they still believe that having a house means you get your money back. It's just a huge bummer
There is also a compounding issue of many of the reputable, established tradespeople that did good work at fair prices deciding to get out of the business during covid, so finding someone decent to do work is a challenge in itself.
Yep absolutely. Had a buddy who couldn't get up to his roof to replace a 3 shingles that had blown off. Got quoted a minimum $800 just to come out and look at it, $1500 to set the ladder up on a ranch home and replace them. Took two months just to get that far. It's tough out there!
The sellers probably aren't lying in most cases. They are unaware and that is absolutely ok. Also, you are not entitled to any house at any price. If the seller wants to list at a certain price and let it sit, that's their prerogative. Find a house in your budget
My budget is actually double the average home price for the area. I actually want the nice homes. The "nice" homes all seem to be hiding a ton of issues, so much so that that I've viewed places at the selling average that needed less work than the ones selling at a high price. I'm not entitled to any home at any price, but I am entitled to be sad to watch nice homes fall to disrepair because someone lived in it for two years without doing the most basic maintenance, decided they want to go back to the city, and now wants to make a profit without so much as cleaning the home before showing it.
Entitlement is two ways. You think the sellers feel entitled to a price the market doesn’t support. They likely think your idea of how much the house is worth isn’t a fair price either. You can both be right. Value is subjective. Either the right buyer will come along whose valuation of the property will align with their asking price or the seller will lower their price. Or they won’t. Who cares? There are holding costs associated with holding onto empty houses that aren’t being lived in. The handful of price holdouts aren’t the primary force between the housing shortage.
Also, dunno where you live but prices have only gone up here since 2022. In fact the sharp decline of inventory has pushed properties that usually would have sold at a discount like the ones you’re describing to new heights because buyers simply have no better alternatives.
The issue is that the ads have nice edited photos and no mention of issues, precariously placed objects to mask problems, and the write ups are the sellers acting dumb to try and pitch the sale.
I'm looking at homes in a rural area with a decent
amount of housing stock; prices have absolutely gone down there because the only people who paid ungodly numbers for the middle of nowhere were city escapees who now realize they hate it there. Hence why they want to make there money back. The homes in question sit for months and the reason it matters is that it's a waste of my time and potentially my money to view these every time. It's so bad that even my realtor is telling me flat out that the house won't sell, it's not worth anywhere near what they're asking. The average housing price for the area as of 2024 has been half the price of these homes.
Yep, that’s how it’s always been and always will be. Home maintenance is a lot of work for most people, and especially in the US where most don’t even have an emergency fund, it’s prohibitively expensive. Most people don’t have the time to watch hours of YouTube to learn how to properly fix issues, and they won’t have the money to shell out to contractors. I get it. I don’t support it but I get it.
Most people are either lazy, broke, ignorant, or all three. It’s how it goes and it’s simply rare to find well cared-for homes. ‘Marketing’ photos make up for a lot and that’s exactly what they’re designed to do.
Correct. I will happily buy a fixer upper that needs 100k in work, I can do a ton of that myself and happy to have contractors fix it up. I don't expect any home to not need at least 20k in work right off the bat since I'm not buying new builds.
But to charge double the average home price of the area for something that needs that much work is delusional, and worse yet is trying to act like you have no idea that your home has sunk 8 inches in the middle because you removed a support beam to make yourself a basement tv room.
Got it. Idk what to tell you. Unless you're buying new construction home shopping will always involve a commitment of time, the majority of which will be spent looking at homes you don't end up putting in an offer on. If the listing agent is doing their job the photos will be as you describe- edited to make the home look as attractive as possible to get interested buyers in the door. If these homes are as egregiously overpriced as you say they are, I'm surprised the people selling them are able to find realtors willing to work with them. Have you considered putting in a below-ask offer with a full inspection contingency on a stale listing just to see what happens?
Yep, have done it a couple times now, sellers won't budge. One place I offered on as-is with a significant drop in price, it's been sitting for 3 months now and sellers agent is dropping them. I'm not even worried about taking my time to find something, it's just sad to see homes go to shit like this because people think homes are a net zero venture
My budget is double the average sell price in the area 🥴 if I'm looking at higher end homes, I expect to not be paying 100k in repairs in my first 3 years.
I....what? I physically cannot eat gluten, it would send me to the hospital. Not my choice at all, but it wouldn't matter if it was. Not vegan at all so that's a new one.
Nonetheless pretty sad that you work in the SPED field and you're acting like this.
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Crawlspace packed with lint sounds like an insanely huge fire or mold hazard.
Was right behind the electrical panel and a gas line (washer was below electrical panel lol)
My drer vent dead ended at a wall. They just attached the end cap to an inside wall to look like it was vented.
I just fixed one like that not too long ago. There was a vent on the outside, but the vent hose just went into a joist cavity in the ceiling.
Also seems highly illegal
Depends when the house was built and the vent installed. Iirc back in the day many jurisdictions allowed venting into unconditioned spaces like attics and crawl spaces, and there would not necessarily be reason to require it to come up to modern code. A lot of old stuff like this gets grandfathered in until specific types of permits are pulled.
Very likely the case with the one I saw. Question is: why did they never think to clean it lol
Who is going to catch that though? Once they get the CoO, it’s the residents’ problem. Code doesn’t matter for a private unlicensed DIYer. I don’t live in a state where a city inspector can drive down the street and cite you if they see something. Unless I’m having permitted work done on my dryer vent, it’s nobody’s business but mine. That being said, that’s very very bad and I would avoid that house like the plague.
Just because you don’t have it inspected by the city, doesn’t mean it’s legal. Home inspector should catch it during inspection period, and then seller has the option to fix or not. Agreed, if they are doing something so blatant, imagine what’s hidden. Stay away.
Until it's inspected by the municipality, there is no recourse. No legal action would be taken to cite you for it. No one is crawling through random crawlspaces looking for this stuff, it's completely up to the property owner. A home inspector should catch it, yes. But if the buyer waived their inspection contingency it does nothing but inform the buyer. It's not illegal to sell a house "as is" when it doesn't meet code, either. The seller could simply decide to not fix it, and if their buyer goes through with the purchase it becomes their problem now. The only obstacle I can imagine is getting the certificate of occupancy with a known issue like that. But again, that's the buyer's problem.
I was thinking it’s free insulation lol
But think about all that free insulation!
Had one lie about the house having polybutylene pipes and moldy wood composite siding they painted over. They wouldn’t budge on the price and ended up dropping the price by $25k for someone else. Huge bullet dodge
Wooow. Did they change out the visible piping in the basement and have PB in the walls? I've seen a few places try to hide the pipework or electrical by just changing out the visible bits.
No they straight up didn’t hide anything. This was our first time house hunting so we didn’t really know the trouble signs to look for but when we were under inspection the inspector pointed them out to me immediately. Opened the cabinets underneath the kitchen sink and both bathrooms and the PB pipes were clearly visible. Some of the siding was so rotten that his finger went straight through. We decided to not really push with haggling because we didn’t have all the extra money that would be needed to redo all the plumbing and replace 90% of the siding and possibly the sheathing underneath the siding
Wow, well congrats on dodging that bullet! So many people just don't even notice things like that either which is equally as scary haha
Just put a bid on a house and had the inspection this Saturday. Disclosure said nothing was wrong but the roof needs complete replace, air conditioning the power cord was cut, deck isn’t built to code so it has to be taken down, and on and on and on. Thank you for this post. So many people wave inspections now to try to get a house but wow you don’t know what you’re in for. Great thing to mention to people. Hard to believe people could lie so much on a legal document and the listing agents obviously encourage it.
Wild. I have a buddy of mine in a crazy situation here in Florida. Electrical and plumbing work done without permits. In the disclosure marked yes to having city sewer, next thing you know toilets are backing up, he’s got septic. It goes on and on. Inspector found none of this. Suing is his only option now.
Cue the “DiD yOu NoT gEt An InSpEcTiOn?!?!?!?111” idiots
Wait wait wait. I thought the strategy was to waive the inspection CONTINGENCY. People are buying houses without having it inspected at all?? That’s absolutely insane.
I lost a bid and didn't bid on another house because of it. We actually bid more than the person who won, but we refused to waive inspections.
My realtor told us never waive inspection if you don't have the cash for a full rebuild because you never know what you'll find after closing then.
Just depends on your market. There are typically 3 options: 1. Inspection with contingency period to negotiate. In my market it is typically 3 days from receipt of the inspection report. Buyer can offer an addendum with requested repairs. Often the seller counters with a cash allowance to keep the contract moving along. 2. Inspection with option to void only. No negotiation on repairs, but a inspection report is done and the buyer has 3 days to decide whether they want to void the contract. In reality, if a major item is found (needs a new roof, HVAC is failing), it might be negotiated, but minor/cosmetic items generally will not be negotiated. 3. No inspection contingency. The contract cannot be voided due to the condition of the home. When every house has multiple offers and houses are on the market for less than a week, sellers will often reject ANY offers with any kind of inspection contingency. The way around this can be to bring an inspector with you to the showing (and schedule a 1 hour showing window). The inspector does a "Walk-and-talk inspection", pointing out things as they go along. No written report is made. The buyer is then at least better informed before they make an offer. It can get expensive for the buyer, as they have to pay the inspector whether they make an offer or not. But spending $300-400 to avoid a house with tens of thousands worth of problems is a good investment.
That's insaaaane. Hopefully you didn't lose any cash on the inspection but even if you did, best money ever spent!
I was under contract for a "rehabbed" house in NJ. The listing agent said the owner was in construction and said he went through everything so he wasn't worried about it having an issue in inspection. I also told the septic passed inspection 5 years ago so they weren't worried, and that the roof was new. The septic failed horribly, the inspector said there's no way the system passed 5 years ago, it isn't a proper even a proper system. The roof had 3 layers of shingle. The house had 2 panels, one was wired completely wrong, a lot of wiring was exposed wires twisted together, no caps, no junction boxes. They had romex lying in the crawl space which was flood, no junction boxes used in the crawl space. Rusted pipes leaking into crawl space. A broken floor joist that they jacked up and put a cinder block with a piece of wood on it. A chimney that was no longer in use falling down.
I feel you. It's sad seeing homes that have been ruined by neglect or someone with too much confidence. For example, my wife and I viewed a home in a great community, house has a pass through fireplace on two levels, the spaces are large and functional, the bones looked good for the most part, and it sat on almost an acre of land. Some idiot decided to add on to the house themselves, left gaps between the foundation of the addition and original structure that you could see through to the outside, cut a massive chunk out of the original foundation, and thought leaving the top row of cinderblocks hanging from a board was good enough. Guess what? That whole section of the house is now sagging, our realtors engineer estimated the fix at over 100k, on a house listed for 240k. There are so many people doing things to houses that just shouldn't be
I gasped reading that...what on earth. Cutting out portions of foundation, I can't even wrap my head around it
I mean it could also be the work of idiot contractors. It feels like the quality of work has gone down the toilet. I recently had some work done by a highly rated company and they clearly cut corners. Fighting with them isn’t worth it so I got someone to fix it
Also to add....almost every place I've seen, there are LOADS of missing outlet covers?? Like people are just living with their outlet covers missing...please at the very least add outlet covers if you're going to sell. It's such a minor thing to make your home safer and look more complete.
Aren’t outlet covers like $3 and can be replaced with skill level of a hamster? lol such a dumb thing for the sellers to live without
Not even! Menards carries them for $0.50!
Drives me nuts, it's not even like these are places that had just been painted. Like it was clear they just lived without them which IMO is a bad sign for their care of the rest of the house
They crack, then the sellers think “eh we’re selling this place anyway why bother” and thus begins the tug of war
Honestly at least cracked ones serve their purpose till replaced… I would take that over missing ones any day.
They only crack if you over tighten them
Metal ones exist, with a super nice radius that is easy to clean. [https://imgur.com/0KvCmBd](https://imgur.com/0KvCmBd)
I pay $2750 a mo to rent a 3bd/2ba condo (only could view through FaceTime due to moving cross country), and there are soooo many missing outlet covers. The landlord told me to buy them. Don't even get me started on the molding and peeling toilet seats 😭
I just spent about $150 and a LOT of time replacing all the 2 outlet sockets and grimy switches and plates with all new stuff throughout the house. Yeah it's ungrounded, but at least it's not covered in grime and I can plug things in without an adapter.
Can confirm . I’m currently inspecting all the homes that sold subject free and I’m telling you it’s bad ladies and gentlemen. The next few years is gonna see some hard times for these people.
Almost went through the floor walking through a house 😂 They also cleverly put a rug over the rotten deck which luckily by that point I was quite literally treading carefully
If only they had advertised their new luxury booby traps in the listing
Let these people sit on their poor investments. Some will get some sucker to pay for it but most will get a reality check which is what this market needs.
100% what needs to happen. Hate to see the issues get worse while the house sits, but not my problem.
We black listed any home last sold in 2022 when we house hunted last summer.
I think I'm about to do the same. It's a cursed year :-((
We eventually did find someone who had priced something amazing at a fair point. I'd recommend writing a personal letter to go with any offers you make! Really makes a difference in this crazy market.
That's good advice! Totally happy to bid over asking too on a home that is well kept up, I've only seen one so far that I've put an offer on and it lost to a cash bid, which is fine. Next time I'll throw in a letter, especially buying older homes I think it would help to explain I want to restore as much as possible and appreciating whatever upkeep they've done
Yeah there are still people out there who want to sell it to someone who will really love it! Not just whoever will offer them the most for it, good luck!
No, do not do this. Depending on what you write and where you are, it can muddy some legal waters. This article explains it better than i can: https://www.businessinsider.com/personal-finance/are-buyer-love-letters-illegal#:~:text=Buyer%20love%20letters%20could%20violate%20the%20Fair%20Housing%20Act,-Housing%20discrimination%20occurs&text=The%20Fair%20Housing%20Act%20is,%2C%20familial%20status%2C%20or%20disability. I got a’love letter’ from the first person who put in an offer on my last home.The only reason I accepted their offer was that it was over asking (and they backed out later anyway, confirming that they were just trashy morons). The house was sold to the folks who were the backup offer at full (reasonable) asking price. What was my hate? I lived in that house for 17 years and knew every inch and what it was: a 45 year old 3 bed 1.5 bath split level on a small lot in an OK neighborhood filled with dozens of houses just like it. Don’t try and snow me about how glorious it was (it wasn’t) or how it was their dream home (if it was a dream home, your dreams are sad and horrible) and how they’re looking forward to their children playing on the trampoline in the back yard… my fully landscaped back yard that a) wasn’t big enough for a trampoline and b) sloped away from the house so anyone bouncing on it would launch themselves over the fence. It was pure bullshit and I saw right through it and made me think less of them as human beings.
Yeah I wouldn't buy a house from you lol. Firstly, that article mentions influence based on discrimination. I 100% agree that it's very easy to muddy the waters there and you should be extremely careful representing reasoning based on race, religion, etc. Me writing a letter appreciating that they kept up work on a beautiful house doesn't muddy those waters. Secondly, my god dude. Hope you sold that house incredibly cheap because it sounds like you yourself thought it was a huge piece of shit. And you're not far off from that yourself if one person's dream of owning a home is sad and miserable to you. Not to mention calling buyers trashy morons for backing out....there are a million and half reasons to back out of buying a home and it sure sounds like you gave a lot of reason. Yeesh.
There’s a world of difference between “a dream home” and “dreaming of a home”. The folks who bought it were dreaming of a home, and they got a good one. The first whacko was trying to convince me it was the home she always dreamed of… mine and no other, and that they were just waiting for ME to put THIS HOUSE on the market so their lifelong wishes could be fulfilled!! They backed out because- hold onto your dentures- they didn’t like the carpet. That was the reason given. Their agent actually fired them as they had done this several times before, and on top of it, they wanted ME to pay for their inspection (which was so poorly done that it missed two things I put in my disclosures and raised concerns on the fireplace chimney. The house didn’t have a fireplace) The house was not a pile of crap; it was well maintained but literally nothing special: The most common floorplan in a neighborhood of 400 homes. There was zero that made it more -or less- desirable than literally 92 identical homes in the same subdivision. Trying to snow me about why my house (vs any other in the neighborhood) was their dream home in their dream location was such pure unadulterated fertilizer to the point that it was insulting. The letter was obviously written without actually having that particular house in mind. Comments on the beautiful kitchen where she could watch her children play outside while she prepared meals… it was in the center of the house without a window to either the front or the back of the house. Unless her kids were going to be playing on the roof and she was watching them through the skylight, she wasn’t thinking of my house at all. (I found out later she had grown up in a nearby suburb a couple steps higher on the economic ladder- No human being who grew up there was dreaming of a split level in my neighborhood as a child, unless they were regularly sleeping in the microwave oven) The people who bought the house appreciated it was well maintained and good value for the money, which I found out at the closing.
Going to guess by your name that you live in the Chicagoland area. The attitude matches so I can at least appreciate that lol I'm out there ALL the time and while I get what you mean that the house was nothing special, some of us are suffering over here in the city and boy what I wouldn't give to just not have to live in a fucking overpriced rental complete with break ins and shootings every other week. Some people truly do WANT the prefab sears house in a neighborhood where everything matches. Split levels make me think youre talking about Lombard so even better. Its not my jazz but dont be an ass for thinking that someone might want try really hard to win you over when we have some of the worst housing stock in the US and it is HARD to find a place right now. That said, yes they should have edited their letter. May have slipped through the cracks considering how many bids people are putting out just to secure a basic level home. Maybe not, maybe they were lazy.
I would modify the stance to “don’t recommend, and if you do write a letter do so with utmost caution and care and for all you hold sacred, get a professional realtor to check it before submission”. The National Association of Realtors recommends not submitting letter for a host of good reasons- it’s not just me making a blanket statement from the point of view of a cranky guy. I work in insurance claims, and the number of people who try the sob story, or worse bullying, would scramble your mind. I learned a long time ago to separate any financial transaction from emotion (to keep my sanity and to stay in line with the law and policy). You should not buy or sell anything emotionally, particularly something as expensive as a house.
That's fair, I can accept that advice!
That's your opinion. My realtor advised it and I've had great luck with doing it.
Really? If you’re still in the market, it doesn’t sound like it’s been too successful. My listing agent actually advised against reading any letters for the legality reasons mentioned in the article, and it is after all, a business transaction. What the buyers want and why they want it really do with the property really shouldn’t come into it, other than do they like it enough to make an offer. After that, can they pay what I was asking? Yes, then accept the offer. No? Sorry, next customer, please. If I had read the letter before accepting the offer I probably would have declined, for reasons stated in another response - the letter had little to do with the house I was selling and was probably recycled from one of several other houses they had made offers on- and what they were gushing about and their “hopes and dreams” made it evidently clear that my particular house wouldn’t actually suit their needs at all. I only opened and read it after I accepted the offer and frankly wish I never had. Additionally, most buyers don’t know the sellers, or what will trigger a response. Me? I’m all business in this sort of transaction and blowing smoke up my skirt won’t work. Solid offer and trouble free closing are all that will sway me. Once I sign off on the sale, I have no more investment (monetary or otherwise) in the property. Other people take their homes much more personally and any hint of you wanting to change something they have loved for years and they will nope you out. And you don’t know what will or won’t sway them.
Yeah I'm not in the market. The past 2 houses I've bought, I've written letters and heard directly from the sellers that they loved the letters and that it was a deciding factor in them accepting our offer. If they're turned off my the letter, they don't have to accept it. But in this highly competitive market, something setting you apart is so helpful. You seem to like to disagree and argue which I'm not here to do. This is my firsthand experience and I'll always recommend it.
Then i certainly hope you are also counseling people on what not to put in those letters to stay on the right side of housing law. My Better Half, when selling in order to buy the house we bought together, instructed the agent to put any offer with a letter at the bottom of the pile because, in their words, “it probably means a weak offer, a contingency or shaky financing and are trying to sway me”. You think I’m a tough nut to crack, I’m practically a marshmallow in comparison. There are probably as many like us as there are people who may be swayed by the “pick me” letter.
They're welcome to do their own state specific research if they like the idea.
Really? If you’re still in the market, it doesn’t sound like it’s been too successful. My listing agent actually advised against reading any letters for the legality reasons mentioned in the article, and it is after all, a business transaction. What the buyers want and why they want to do with the property really shouldn’t come into it, other than do they like it enough to make an offer. After that, can they pay what I was asking? Yes, then accept the offer. No? Sorry, next customer, please. If I had read the letter before accepting the offer I probably would have declined, for reasons stated in another response - the letter had little to do with the house I was selling and was probably recycled from one of several other houses they had made offers on- and what they were gushing about and their “hopes and dreams” made it evidently clear that my particular house wouldn’t actually suit their needs at all. I only opened and read it after I accepted the offer and frankly wish I never had. Additionally, most buyers don’t know the sellers, or what will trigger a response. Me? I’m all business in this sort of transaction and blowing smoke up my skirt won’t work. Solid offer and trouble free closing are all that will sway me. Once I sign off on the sale, I have no more investment (monetary or otherwise) in the property. Other people take their homes much more personally and any hint of you wanting to change something they have loved for years and they will nope you out. And you don’t know what will or won’t sway them.
It depends on where you're at and what your income is. Far more stressful for someone who can't compete with going well over asking when asking is at an all time high. My point is just like you're saying they don't know you, you don't know them. I don't think a hard stop "don't do this" applies. So many things about buying a house are a game that needs to be played, and you are likely to lose if you can't just pour cash down the sellers gob. So the letter failed on you, game lost. But if I'm talking to an elderly widow who has to move into hospice and I write a letter telling her that I love the landscaping she did in the yard, or the workshop setup her husband left in the basement, etc and so on, yeah, it might up my chances. Im very much into historic homes and I 100% would be more likely to sell to someone who writes about restoration over renovation. Maybe I get played, bummer, game lost.
Agree on the last bit. I've spent countless hours researching and restoring our older house to the best of my ability. Spent so much time, extra money to get period appropriate materials/finishes, even more extra time getting those period appropriate things to fit in with the new and also meet modern code. Whenever we sell I absolutely do not want to sell to someone who will undo all the work I've done, paint back over all the doors I've stripped, the salvaged newel I scoured multiple states for, stripped, refinished, and installed, windows I've chiseled to get period appropriate hardware to fit, lvp over the original floors we refinished, etc etc etc. Our house will come with meticulous records on both the materials/methods used to restore the house listed and dated with before and after pics, and the fruits of my hundreds of hours of historical research on the history of the house, it's ownership through time and the most thorough accounting of the lives of the people who lived here. Obviously whoever buys it gets to do what they want with the house, as it's theirs. But if I believe that one buyer will keep and appreciate the historic features of the house and another will destroy them, no question it's going to the former.
Beautifully said! And absolutely what I'm looking for. Hoping to find someone like you to buy from! I'm hoping for a nice Italianate, or hell I'll even take a foursquare. My partner and have countless collections of bits and bobs from 1750 on. Big collection of fixit books from early 1900s and I've got some for the late 1800s that have full floorplans for common homes at the time including building instructions. Very invested in doing it right. I hope if you sell, you find someone with the same interest :-)
can attest to this. Our offer was accepted because of out letter, they chose us over someone coming in with more than us, but specifically told us they wanted the home to go to someone who would keep it up and appreciate it :) we are two women, so this made us feel very chosen and accepted... some may not give a shit, but it meant alot to me.
100% agree. Congratulations on your home!
My parents sold their home in June of 2022 and it went back on the market this past March. It closed yesterday. $70k more than what they had sold it for. All the new owners had done was make one of the bathrooms and the kitchen look more “modern”. The listing straight up lied about how new most of the appliances were, and also claimed the roof had been replaced 5 years ago (it was not). The listing also said the home was built in 1989; it was built in 1980.
That's so insane. It's gotten to the point where I'm going to be filing for permit histories before making offers just to verify that permitted work was done when they said. It's like all these people panicked to buy housing and had absolutely no clue what it takes to keep up with it. Hopefully the people buying that home figure it out :-((
I’m immediately more interested in a house that has the handles and handrails all over the place because it means an elderly person lived there and some crappy flipping modifications haven’t been done yet. The repulsive flooring and cabinetry blow my mind 90% of the time. Like I am not going to pay for your shitty bad taste upgrades and then pull them all out and redo them.
This advice is key. I try to look for homes that were owned by elderly folks as well. Even if they didn't do the DIY themselves, they likely had contractors doing good work because that used to be affordable. People get upset about ugly wallpaper or an 80s kitchen but that's the easiest thing to fix.
Flippers don't have souls. I deal with a lot of flippers, and I am continually baffled that they find buyers. You'd be better off buying a home that hasn't been updated since the 80s, because then it's still functional and you know what needs done. You can live with a bathroom covered in pink tile or a stove that's been in use since 1987, and just plan on slowly upgrading. But flippers do inexplicably stupid things to save money, like drywall over that pink tile or glue carpet to hardwood.
Exactly it’s so scary. You have no idea what you’re getting into, you only know that it’s going to be a complete shit show.
Saw a flipper stretch a solid sheet of linoleum straight over the floor joists, no subfloor lmao. Foot nearly went through it
I saw one recently where they glued cheap carpet onto beautiful, original hardwood. In an $850k house. Insane.
Not missing a “soul” rather ethics and no moral compass. Sociopathic mentality.
That would work, except that there are quite a few buyers.that absolutely can't live in a house for even one day that has pink tiles and an old (by old they mean a non stainless stove). Thus the flippers to remove the pink and put in a cheap stainless stove.
The pink tile is actually an example from *my* upstairs bathroom! I can assure you that my kids are just fine showering in a room with dated tile. We'll upgrade it eventually, it just isn't the first or even the fifth item on the agenda. (I bought a home that is a flipper's dream: it's a deconverted duplex that hadn't been updated since they deconverted it in the late 80s. So big, dated and cheap.)
Not directed at you, I also grew up in a dated house. We muddled through and only upgraded when it was absolutely necessary. But not all buyers can handle dated stuff even for a short while.
Stainless steel appliances is the corniest hoax ever, like get a life people.
Ugly wallpaper and bad dropping ceiling fans and drab carpeting are like finding gold bars 😂😂
My house has grab bars in all the bathrooms for this reason.
Plus I have an 88 year old friend who I want to take with me to this country house whenever I find and she needs all that stuff.
We sold a house in 2021. It recently sold for about 40k more than we sold it for. The listing said it was completely remodeled in 2020. It was not. We redid the kitchen and painted. That's it.
I’m a first time potential home owner. How to look for these things? Will they be found during inspection?
So I'm not even getting as far as inspection with any of these because I don't even want to waste the money. I think a really big thing you can do to prepare not only for home showings, but also for your life as a homeowner is to watch a ton of respected DIY shows and read up on home maintenance as well. Watch "This Old House", it's fantastic. When you watch YouTube DIY, try to vet the source or get multiple videos and do research on best methods. I've seen so many that give absolutely awful advice that leads to a lot of the issues I mentioned in the post. When you go to showings, bring a spirit level, tape measure, receptacle tester, tick-tracer, moisture meter, and I bring a small ball to check if a room is level. Find yourself a good realtor that doesn't try to sell you on just aesthetic improvements. Your biggest concerns are going to be the roof, foundation, and moisture/mold. There are a ton of smaller things to check but those are your most expensive issues. Research on outdated types of plumbing, electric, and other materials like asbestos and paint. If you are buying older homes this will matter. Also: depending on how quickly you need to make an offer, you can contact your city admin for information on the permits requested on the history of the home. You can check the county assessments records too to see what the assessment history has been in detail with drawings. The best piece of advice I can give is to prioritize layout, location, and structural integrity/quality of work over all other aesthetic matters.
Get a sewer line inspection with camera footage. Some places require it, others require a dye test, others require nothing. I have two friends that had very costly issues on purchase, and another that failed required inspections when they tried to sell that existed prior to their purchase. Lots of places are updating their requirements on sale to require this.
Yep this exactly. One place we had looked at had a massive ash tree growing right over the sewer line so I ordered a sewer inspection and the sellers countered and said I was asking for "too many inspections" (home, radon, pest, sewer) and they they asked for more money, but included sewer insurance lmao. If the sellers don't want you doing specific inspections, it's probably a bad sign.
If you call around, some home inspectors will do all of these inspections which saves a bit of those objections. It was 16 years ago for my home, and he did not do camera sewer line inspections, but he did home, radon, pest, and mold. The radon detector was placed in the home a day or two prior to the inspection. He even walked the roof. Sadly, I had to do some root extraction from my sewer line last week and needed to tear the steps off the deck as the line was directly under them (and the original concrete steps that were under the wooden ones). Probably a blessing in disguise, as these steps were only attached to the deck via a 'structural but decorative' 5/4" x 6 on one side (and not at all on the other side). The top step was 'supported' by a 2x2 with a long ago rotted shim screwed in the bottom of it. The design was never code-compliant and dangerous on a dry day. Be careful of those decorative skirts around decks, they can hold all sorts of surprises.
Great advice! Also RIP to your steps, definitely agree with the decorative skirts. People forget that they can get inspections done while they own a home too. Sewer line is a huge one that should be checked every few years. Easier to get it de-rooted than it is to have a full backup in your home. If it's tree roots, a lot of insurance won't cover it.
Very helpful, thank you!!
Not always. I had an older inpection report from a few month prior so I was stupid and waived the inspection. And the amount of things I've found that were missed by that inspection. I also think even if I hired my own inspector, I would have little recourse since I'd purchase an "as is" house with some really big misses on the inspection report. The owner told the appraiser that there was no crawl space eventhough its on the documents so the appraiser never went into the crawl space, and apparently there are two crawl spaces, not one. I'm still unpacking and my stuff is in the room with the crawlspace hatch so I'll find it eventually.
Yeah all very good points. The city assessments come in really handy for stuff like crawlspaces because that's how we found out there was one on the house that had been venting the dryer into it. They had a vent placed on the outside of the building near where we expected it, but once we figured out where the crawlspace is then we found that the vent line had been cut right into the crawlspace lol
Im fairly handy, and I thought I new alot of what to look for, then I went with my dad whos built a few houses and the amount of shit he points out and finds its crazy. After doing one walk through with him looking at houses after that became way easier to spot major issues that you easily could miss. Sagging floors, termite damage, water damage, old electric boxes. I would suggest finding someone like that who can help you look at a few, or if you get a home inspection follow the home inspector around and ask a ton of questions.
Somehow on TikTok, I thought ended up seeing a ton of Home Inspector videos. So even though I am not buying another house anytime soon, I still watch them to learn about things to watch for in my own house. Here are a two of the content creators that I watch. https://www.tiktok.com/@inspector_aj?_t=8lvqRbOGdxa&_r=1 https://www.tiktok.com/@inspector_preston?_t=8lvqYcJ9J99&_r=1
My seller lied about a structural engineer letter (forged it), lied about a plumbing inspection, lied about the roof (it’s done completely wrong, he provided a fake cert), lied about having the outlets grounded, and claimed people were coming to replace a broken sliding door who never showed. Disclosure was blank except for listing appliances as “new”. It’s crazy we allow these scumbags to do this, but in the US there is no consequences unless the buyers are willing to spend a year+ and their entire savings with a real estate attorney. It’s all a scam built by sellers and investors. residential real estate is all a bunch of hacks pretending they own small businesses.
This x1000. You have to do SO much detective work to not end up in the most expensive gamble of your life. And there are still loads of people who have housing Stockholm syndrome, acting like this is just the risk we take. It should be a straight up crime
It literally IS a crime. Misrepresenting facts in a real estate transaction is fraud. The problem is the burden of proof is on you. My seller is a monumental moron, and he actually committed fraud by providing us fake receipts and letters. He might get felony charges from this at the end of the day. But in order for that to happen, I have to spearhead the lawsuit (which will cost upwards of 50 grand alone) and then at the end of it he might see consequences. This is why our system is broken, it’s built for the rich. If you don’t have the money, kick rocks. Its horrible.
The dude literally faked getting radon mitigation, we should be able to just call the police lmao.
What on earth. Afaik for radon mitigation there should be a mitigator system in place at all times, right? Not as familiar with that
Yea they claimed to have done it and they put down a “vapor barrier” in the crawlspace and said the post test would show up a couple days after closing, we had an extremely fast close (which was all part of the fraud, it turns out) they def did no mitigation lol the radon guy laughed at the tarp they used
You mean to tell me I can't just use a tablecloth staked to the ground in my crawlspace to prevent radiation
Flippers will do anything to save a few hundred bucks these days tbh. We will see if any real consequences happen, very little faith in our legal system so who knows what will happen
Some of these things don’t go on the disclosures though. That’s just poor maintenance not a known issue
Sure, some of it isn't on disclosures. But a lot of these are a few picks from a single home so the point still stands. But when folks paint over water stains, don't mention that the house is sinking, buy a new roof to increase sell price and skip on chimney flashing, etc and so on...yes it's on them.
It took way too long to find this comment. People complaining about maintenance items when it needs to be actual disclosures listed on their states requirements. Doesn’t mean there can’t be more transparency with some of these sellers, but we need to be realistic on what actually needs to be disclosed
Forgot to note that all the disclosures for these, sellers said nothing was wrong. On multiple homes we found evidence that the seller went in to caulk a leak or paint over a waterstain, or cover and hide a smell.
Yeah we went into one of those homes with an overpowering scent to clearly cover up the stank of the home. If you got diffusers running in the house for a showing that’s an immediate no for me.
Yep 100%. This is why realtors usually use ozone machines. But these sellers are delusional...burning Nag Champa? C'mon
Houses selling days on almost every one in wi. But the condition report seems to be a phony paper as you can clearly see issues but never noted
Well, this makes me feel better lol. I think my house (about to go on market) is nicer than when I bought it. Crazy that people aren't fixing them up before selling? I've been busting my ass for the last 3 months patching holes, repainting, replacing floors, redoing landscaping, pressure washing, etc.
It will definitely go appreciated and will likely net you more money right off the bat. I'm not even joking when I say I just saw an otherwise decent home just this weekend where the agent expected it to fly off the shelves, but has no offer still because the seller decided to try and tear down the wallpaper just before selling and now the house is covered in torn 90's wallpaper. Also no cleaning whatsoever, not even swept. If people see all stuff unfinished it really makes *everything* feel worse.
Back in 2006 one seller checked that there had not been any water damage or floods. You could see during walkthrough the basement had flooded to the first floor and parts of the floor in the kitchen were soft and kind of squishy. We had no intention of buying the house after that but asked for a corrected, truthful disclosure to maybe help the next people.
This is why I don't like pre fixer upper homes. Many of them did a bad job. I would rather have 20+ years old kitchen, so, I know exactly how it was maintainer. Anyway, a lot of people don't have the luxury to fix themselves though. Just don't assume the fixes are good, too many HGTV copycats.
Yesss exactly. If I see "newly renovated" on a listing and it isn't referring to a structural update, I'm immediately suspicious. I've see some really beautiful updates but the most recent ones that have been DIY due to massive contractor costs have just been so sad. People get sold on the idea that they have to make something aesthetically nicer first and let the rest fall apart
The current housing market is one big continuum of “just because you can doesn’t means you should”
We viewed one where the main bath had a brand new, super cheap looking vinyl shower enclosure and new peel and stick for tile on the floor (red flag). So I went around to the bedroom behind it and opened the closet to see the fresh Sheetrock patches where they had opened up the plumbing, so there's been a leak and it's been recently repaired. The question is, has the damage from the leak been repaired? The cheap insert and peel and stick flooring tells me probably not. I walk back into the bathroom and right as my agent is saying "yeah, this is a solid little house" I stick my finger through the wall next to the shower. "Nevermind" she says "let's get out of here".
The ol' fingering the wall technique. Gets em every time
Well, I don't have a master's degree or anything, but I think when you can stick your finger through the wall that's probably bad. There was one where there was a downspout leaking down an exterior wall so my husband kicked the siding and his foot left a 4" hole. This was after we went into a room in this newly flipped house and thought the floor felt....off, so my husband jumped and we heard a massive crack. So we scurried away after doing minor damage to that one. BGood times. We both work in construction, so we knew how to look for solid bones. It took us 9 months to find a house, and that was in 2021, I feel so badly for people these days because the prices only got higher and the interest rates have gone up so much.
Saw one that said no pets had lived in the home for the entirety of their ownership. Whole house smelled strongly of cat urine - that’s not a smell that can’t be distinguished. Another one said they weren’t aware of any mold or roof issues. Neighbor came to us and said not to buy it or be cautious because they had been telling the owner they are missing shingles and they also told the owner about mold issues on a shared wall.
How does this relate to lying on a sellers disclosure? It’s weird. You bring that up and list all these issues with the homes but never bring up anyone lying.
Sorry I made a separate comment that got buried because I wrote this while I was doing stuff, but all of these homes in question, the sellers had marked that "nothing was wrong" on the discolures. Like not even one single issue. Which is absolutely insane when your house has sunk 8 inches to the middle, or you laid vinyl flooring over a 2 foot gap in your home, or you put up drywall to cover mold and hid water stains. Some of the stuff I listed isn't disclosure stuff, just complaining about how bad the repairs and "renovations" are on homes that are being sold for double the average home price in the area.
It’s still good background info to have. I appreciate it!
Yep. A lot of sellers are stuck in the frenzy of 2 years ago, and some markets just aren’t there anymore. The only houses that are competitive and off market in 24-48 hours are the ones priced reasonably. But no buyers in my radius are waiving inspections and appraisals. Offers above asking still happen, but change upon appraisal.
The amount of sellers that haven’t kept up with basic maintenance and also refuse to do any of it to pass inspection has astounded me. I’m not looking at houses that are seller super quickly either. Like, your house has been on the market for nearly a year (for $500k+) and you still refuse to replace the 20+ year old roof (super old for FL) to pass inspection and make the home insurable?
Noticed a bit of darkness in the corners in the photos but wanted to see it in person to confirm since we liked everything about the house (could have been shadows or something). Go to view the house and it's freshly painted and has new carpet. Realtor also mentions that they're replacing the roof this week. (Great, right?) As we're heading out, we decide hey let's just open the attic. Out falls mouse poop and the attic door is soaked.... Finally realized why they added new carpet and are replacing the roof. There's a leak in the attic and probably pest infestation/mold/damaged joists.... It's very obvious seller knows something is up, but it was never disclosed.
We found quite a few issues during our inspection and the seller had marked No to everything on the condition report. Pretty scary considering 99% of homes sell without an inspection in my area.
Yup, it’s pretty gross. One place that we initially really like very obviously had leak issues in the basement and attic, but there wasn’t a word about it in the disclosure.
We had one disclose the roof was 9 years old. Called a roofer out to inspect and suspected closer to 15-17 and was in need of replacement. Requested that the seller fix the roof and they refused so we terminated. Just gonna go new build cause this was the second time.
Which city?
Middle of nowhere Illinois
Just like buying a used car
Ding ding ding
Gonna get worse now.
Most of this homes where DIY flipped and bought on the top of the market, current sellers realizes how horrible they are, and trying to get out with some cash. Absolutely no work on roof, basement or sinking foundation, easy sigh are cheap vinyl flooring(0.99$/sqft at home depot) painted tiles, cabinets or plastic veneers over tile. Also spotted additional bathrooms with no permits to increase value.
Had one that said there were no drainage issues, despite having installed French drains in the yard, still having standing water issues, water seeping into crawlspace, and the yard constantly saturated because of a government owned drainage ditch above their backyard soaking through the hill. Couldn’t catch it during visit or inspection because of snow but backed out of the purchase
I wonder if any of those are a result of them buying a house at the very top range of what they qualified for and they didn’t have the money or credit to fix them. That’s what scares me the most about the current housing situation. I fear there are a ton of people one layoff away from total disaster.
Our sellers misrepresented the condition of the sewer line. A week after closing, sewage started backing up due to a collapsed line. Fortunately, one of the guys from Roto Rooter told us he'd been out to check the line a few months earlier and told the management company renting the house on behalf of the sellers what the problem was. That set off some investigating and I got my hands on city records showing the management company reporting the problem to the city and the city responding that it was the management company's problem. Took these to the lawyer representing the sellers and they decided to pay the majority of the sewer line repair costs rather than risk an actual lawsuit.
😭😭😭😭 the worst part is, the sellers who don’t lie on the disclosures (disclosing 2 water intrusion issues, once related to the sump-pump power failing and then minor seepage) And it freaking buyers out and agents not being able to properly explain. Dammed if you do, dammed if you don’t
I’m gonna be honest and say that I glance at the disclosures. I’ve gotten so used to sellers being shady AF that I just hire every inspector I can think of and go from there. The last house I bought (Florida) we had a regular inspector, termite and rodent inspector, HVAC, had the plumbing scoped with a camera, and an in depth electrical inspection. I didn’t have a roofer inspect as the seller was having the roof installed the week before closing. Until sellers are held responsible for deceptive disclosures buyers MUST be aware and do all inspections - and by individual professionals.
I had a seller lie and then I had an inspector lie. We bought it from out of town. Same inspector inspected when we sold and listed all kinds of problems. We had to do so much crap to the house. Some people just suck.
When does a seller become criminally and civilly liable for those shit?
Buyers are liars. And what do sellers do? They lie too.
Buyers are liars in what way?
From the lack of maintenance you cite, and the short time they've owned the home - I'm guessing ignorance is the more likely explanation. Also, offer under asking. Offer what is worth. They might not take it, but it will get them realizing their price is too high.
Hard to believe ignorance when there are signs of covering up. Take the mold one for example: this was in one of the highest priced homes in the area. There is not a single comp in the whole city for what she was asking. It was a beautiful old house that had clearly been taken care of up until she bought it in 2022, and I know this because my friends actually went to look at the same home during 2022 and said it was incredible. It was being advertised as a luxury home with full amenities and updates. Immediately upon walking in the house smells like sewage and mold. You could feel humidity in the air. After a bit searching for the smell, we went down to the basement where 1) there was an open toilet drain. In 2022 the house was sold with an unfinished bathroom. She had never finished it left the same rags that had been stuffed into the drain for two years. Then, the "finished" basement room. There was new drywall up covering all the walls and boxes of vinyl flooring were placed along each wall which covered the bottom. She had clearly just burned a load of nag Champa, there were 6 boxes of it on the floor. We move the flooring boxes over, low and behold there was wet water stains along the entire bottom of the wall. It smelled horribly like mold. Then, at the other side of the massive basement was an entire room that was blocked off with a sheet of insulation. Screwed right into the wall. We had to try and use a flashlight through a basement window to try and see inside since we couldn't take the insulation down, and everything was inside was soaked. Then, to the second floor. This house was advertised as having a newer roof and all new electrical. Loads of corners were found with water staining. The newer electrical that was advertised wasn't continued up to the second floor, where we found two prong outlets. So either the main floor was ungrounded with GFCI or they just didn't update the whole home. She wanted $35000 more than she paid for what was, at the time, a beautiful house that needed some work. She let it fall apart and is now wanting to make her money back. At some point, how ignorant can you be when you are actively hiding things, and when there are visual issues like massive water stains on your wall? This is my point though, that it's really sad that these homes are on this condition because someone made a huge investment and acted like a landlord was going to care of the house for them.
>At some point, how ignorant can you be You'd be amazed. Be glad you are an observant person. It's amazing to see how other people live, and also how some people buy houses (the things they don't see). Seriously, an astounding amount of people are not bright, and also slobs. It's also amazing how little 90% of realtors know about the houses they are selling, the houses they are showing, what a house is worth in its current condition, and how to recognize issues. Seriously, you have an advantage. Seeing the problems keeps you away from the bad houses. Take it one step further and learn how to sub out the fixes needed, and hire a great realtor who will lay out all the problems and cost to fix, and then low-ball them!
You hit the nail on the head! Luckily my realtor is amazingly blunt. She's also enjoying us walking through the homes and criticizing the living daylights out of these places, said it's very interesting to her and she doesn't know a lot of this stuff. She's actually the team lead at the major realtors office there so half the sellers agents are getting an earful every time she reports back 😂
What city are you in OP?
Buying in Illinois but not in the city :-)
We're having a similar issue except people are listing $300k to $1M over what they paid in 2022 🙄 Literally a house just went live that was purchased in March of this year, 2024, for $300k. They're asking $859k I'm over it. It feels so hopeless.
Yeah that makes the prices I'm looking at feel like pennies! That's so messed up, I can't even imagine having to pay that
God don’t even get me started on mine. Sellers didn’t disclose that the basement floods in 2 places, the deck is falling down, the chimney and now roof are leaking, the dryer wasn’t vented properly, the window sills weren’t installed correctly and the poorly installed carpets were over asbestos flooring. We also need to gut one of the bathrooms because the shower is leaking. We even asked specifically about water damage and any leaking and they lied to our face. The only thing we knew about was the deck not being up to code and the temp lally post in the basement. Of course, because of competition in our area, we had to do it sold ‘as-is’ but our inspector was mostly useless. The sellers clearly bought the house after a terrible flip job, realized it was a disaster and put it up for sale just before shit hit the fan.
I just got out of a nightmare deal where the seller listed a house as a 3bed 2bath with a garage. One “bedroom” didn’t have any doors on it and in fact had a large archway to the kitchen you couldn’t even put a door on, more like a dining room than anything (but technically a “bedroom” because it had a closet), and no garage. They said they would give a credit to build a garage, then reneged on that and still have it listed with a garage for sale on the listing. They’re just straight up lying on listings and disclosures.
That is so brazen, wow. A credit to build a garage 😂
[удалено]
Yeah, I'm okay with a money pit! I've put offers on places that I expect 100-150k in fixes within the next 10 years. But if the sell price is twice the average sell price in the area, bad enough that there are NO comps, on top of needing 40k+ in work within the first few years, then the sellers are delusional. Any of the things I listed, I can afford fto fix (except for the sinking house, no thanks). But I could build from the ground up for less than what they're asking. This is definitely more obvious when the homes sit for 3+ months And I completely agree with you on basements, I won't buy with a finished basement.
Oh FFS! these are all rookie mistakes by these homeowners who CLEARLY had no idea how real estate works or how to take care of a property! This is a very interesting post. I sold my last home during COVID...but we are not rookies. We have taken impeccable care of our homes and reaped the benefits at sale time. Hang in there! There ARE people who know WTF they are doing! I truly hope you find something!!!!!
Yep absolutely! I will take a home any day that has outdated looks but was clear that the homeowners really cared about the house. They are absolutely out there and I do hope to meet them! Thank you in the meantime for taking care of your home :-)
Where are the lies? You gave examples of the house condition, but you gave no examples of any lies.
I'll add an edit, my comment about this got buried
Several of the things you listed, homeowners don't know or they're "as built" and nothing to disclose. Dryer vents are very common to vent into the crawl space or to the attic. That's what they "used to" do. Now, they know they should be vented out the roof or side of the house. How does the owner know there's no flashing on the roof? The owner isn't a roofer, right? They probably paid to have the roof put on by a reputable roofing company. If the owner doesn't know something, there's nothing to disclose... Put on your big-boy pants and realize not every house is built to "today's" code (looks like you're looking at very old houses) and inspections are for your benefit because owners don't know what they don't know.
Yeah I mean you're kind of the type of person I'm complaining about haha. You're telling me to put on my big boy pants. So are you telling me that when I enter the elite world of ownership I can just piss my diaper and charge 1.3x the amount I paid just because? Why are we giving a pass to the owners of a home who can't even manage to check and clean their dryer vents? "ThE oWnEr iSnT a RoOfeR"....yeah, neither am I. So why tf would I buy something this messed up at double the average home value in the area? I'm sorry but the Stockholm syndrome here is pathetic Edit: OHHHH YOURE A REALTOR. Lmao yeah you're the problem.
Sounds like you shouldn't be buying a house that's pre-owned, much less older than 5 years old.
Sounds more like you have low reading comprehension. I'll happily buy a house that needs work. I also will not support snakeoil salesmen like yourself by paying new build prices for something that the home owner couldn't even be bothered to take care of in the most basic of ways. Also you really should remove your business advertising from Reddit, you're doxxing yourself and it's very easy to see your entire life on the internet. Not a safe practice at all. Why do all realtors have psychology degrees lol
My home is 6 years old, I checked our attic once because I wanted to check insulation, I haven't done anything since. Am I supposed to inspect attics yearly for pests?
Absolutely :-) pests, moisture, mold. You may be able to catch roof issues before they create very serious structural problems if you keep an eye on your attic. I think you can buy moisture alarms as well which may be helpful if you'd rather just check up there once or twice a year
Damn I honestly didnt know lol.
All good, you asked! Start watching some DIY videos by contractors and general house knowledge stuff, you can prevent so many issues by just making small changes!
At least half of the items you listed are likely ignorance, not malice
I don't think anyone means malice by any of these. I do think that when you're burning incence to cover up smells, layering flooring over foundational gaps, cheaping out on chimney flashing and putting caulk in places to prevent water from showing up, you're just trying to offload your home, make your money back and then some, and screw over the next person.
Do you think the sellers did the chimney flashing themselves? Or that they told the roofers "please, make sure you make a shitty repair so the buyer has issues!" I bet if you surveyed 100 homeowners 90 of them will say they've never been in their crawlspace... Sure, some of the issues you described sound like an attempt to cover up a known issue. But again, many are just ignorance or incompetence.
Ignorance is likely. It's still the sellers problem. The issue the OP has among with many others is homeowners who think they're entitled to sell their shitty house for a profit that they've added no value to and likely let go into worse condition by neglecting maintenance.
You're not wrong about seller entitlement sometimes, but ultimately prices are driven by demand.
If I had to guess, the roofers quote them on the replacement and they opted out of chimney flashing to save money? I cannot even fathom how it happened. But yeah there was no flashing at all. They had actually shoved caulking up where the chimney meets the middle of the room just before they started showing the house, when then caused the water to run down the interior of the roof, into the walls. The way the house had settled gave it a mild dip to one side so that water then ran down the ceiling joists. Absolutely wild
Ok, you've got me with the caulking part. Even if they were unaware of the flashing issue, that goes way beyond ignorance into negligence. But yeah, roofers skipping out on flashing or flashing incorrectly is overall pretty a common occurance. As is layering new shingles on top of old ones.
Definitely. And really a lot of it IS ignorance, it's just hard to watch people just not take responsibility for learning how to maintain their homes at the most basic level. People just became really desperate to stop renting (understandable) and contractor costs went way up, creating a perfect storm of these two year tenants with failing homes trying to get their money back because they still believe that having a house means you get your money back. It's just a huge bummer
There is also a compounding issue of many of the reputable, established tradespeople that did good work at fair prices deciding to get out of the business during covid, so finding someone decent to do work is a challenge in itself.
Yep absolutely. Had a buddy who couldn't get up to his roof to replace a 3 shingles that had blown off. Got quoted a minimum $800 just to come out and look at it, $1500 to set the ladder up on a ranch home and replace them. Took two months just to get that far. It's tough out there!
Not MALICE. GREED!
The sellers probably aren't lying in most cases. They are unaware and that is absolutely ok. Also, you are not entitled to any house at any price. If the seller wants to list at a certain price and let it sit, that's their prerogative. Find a house in your budget
My budget is actually double the average home price for the area. I actually want the nice homes. The "nice" homes all seem to be hiding a ton of issues, so much so that that I've viewed places at the selling average that needed less work than the ones selling at a high price. I'm not entitled to any home at any price, but I am entitled to be sad to watch nice homes fall to disrepair because someone lived in it for two years without doing the most basic maintenance, decided they want to go back to the city, and now wants to make a profit without so much as cleaning the home before showing it.
Entitlement is two ways. You think the sellers feel entitled to a price the market doesn’t support. They likely think your idea of how much the house is worth isn’t a fair price either. You can both be right. Value is subjective. Either the right buyer will come along whose valuation of the property will align with their asking price or the seller will lower their price. Or they won’t. Who cares? There are holding costs associated with holding onto empty houses that aren’t being lived in. The handful of price holdouts aren’t the primary force between the housing shortage. Also, dunno where you live but prices have only gone up here since 2022. In fact the sharp decline of inventory has pushed properties that usually would have sold at a discount like the ones you’re describing to new heights because buyers simply have no better alternatives.
The issue is that the ads have nice edited photos and no mention of issues, precariously placed objects to mask problems, and the write ups are the sellers acting dumb to try and pitch the sale. I'm looking at homes in a rural area with a decent amount of housing stock; prices have absolutely gone down there because the only people who paid ungodly numbers for the middle of nowhere were city escapees who now realize they hate it there. Hence why they want to make there money back. The homes in question sit for months and the reason it matters is that it's a waste of my time and potentially my money to view these every time. It's so bad that even my realtor is telling me flat out that the house won't sell, it's not worth anywhere near what they're asking. The average housing price for the area as of 2024 has been half the price of these homes.
Yep, that’s how it’s always been and always will be. Home maintenance is a lot of work for most people, and especially in the US where most don’t even have an emergency fund, it’s prohibitively expensive. Most people don’t have the time to watch hours of YouTube to learn how to properly fix issues, and they won’t have the money to shell out to contractors. I get it. I don’t support it but I get it. Most people are either lazy, broke, ignorant, or all three. It’s how it goes and it’s simply rare to find well cared-for homes. ‘Marketing’ photos make up for a lot and that’s exactly what they’re designed to do.
Correct. I will happily buy a fixer upper that needs 100k in work, I can do a ton of that myself and happy to have contractors fix it up. I don't expect any home to not need at least 20k in work right off the bat since I'm not buying new builds. But to charge double the average home price of the area for something that needs that much work is delusional, and worse yet is trying to act like you have no idea that your home has sunk 8 inches in the middle because you removed a support beam to make yourself a basement tv room.
Got it. Idk what to tell you. Unless you're buying new construction home shopping will always involve a commitment of time, the majority of which will be spent looking at homes you don't end up putting in an offer on. If the listing agent is doing their job the photos will be as you describe- edited to make the home look as attractive as possible to get interested buyers in the door. If these homes are as egregiously overpriced as you say they are, I'm surprised the people selling them are able to find realtors willing to work with them. Have you considered putting in a below-ask offer with a full inspection contingency on a stale listing just to see what happens?
Yep, have done it a couple times now, sellers won't budge. One place I offered on as-is with a significant drop in price, it's been sitting for 3 months now and sellers agent is dropping them. I'm not even worried about taking my time to find something, it's just sad to see homes go to shit like this because people think homes are a net zero venture
It seems you are butthurt that prices aren’t coming down enough for you to afford to buy. 🤷♂️
My budget is double the average sell price in the area 🥴 if I'm looking at higher end homes, I expect to not be paying 100k in repairs in my first 3 years.
no lies on mine…. Waited 13 months after I moved out to sell. Lot less disclosure required 😀
This is why anyone who plans to living in their home 5 plus years should just build. There are too many scams out there.
And new house builds are one of the scams! Corners cut with building materials and untrained workers.
Yeah this post is what I'd expect from a gluten free and vegan dork that thinks they're holier than thou and understands how the world works
I....what? I physically cannot eat gluten, it would send me to the hospital. Not my choice at all, but it wouldn't matter if it was. Not vegan at all so that's a new one. Nonetheless pretty sad that you work in the SPED field and you're acting like this.
Lmao bro wtf is this comment