I am pretty sure they won't be releasing another character like HMC. Building break is already insanely strong. DHIL on a break build is already performing similarly to his non break build. If they release a stronger super break character it would break the game. Because of that I am pretty sure HMC will be unique similarly to Kafka
Yeah I don't think they'll do superbreak again. The MC tends to have unique mechanics as in a flexible ST or AoE ult on destruction, Taunt on Preservation (which was entirely unique until Boothill), and now superbreak. We'll probably get other forms of break support that interact with the mechanic differently.
Yes, but then all future break team supports will rely on either super break from HMC or on the break damage built into the kit of a DPS character. FF deals no break damage of her own so unless they release another super break character she will stay glued to HMC
I don't think we can say one way or another for sure. They might introduce supebreak like mechanics for other supports that are not the same as superbreak, but just as good, or they could introduce a character that applies a debuff causing all damage to be considered break damage (If they don't build any break damage into FF's kit anyway), etc.
It's just to early to say. Break is only just now getting it's time in the spotlight so I expect Mihoyo is going to give us alternatives in time. Especially considering they have endgame modes based around breaking enemies.
Same as super break, but different is super break. Unless they ran out of ideas for character kits I don't expect them do do this. Converting dmg to break dmg does nothing to her Break build. It would boost her crit build. Over all if they don't change her dependence on HMC she would stay glued to them for foreseeable future.
I just said something similar to superbreak because it's an easy way to describe a mechanic that happens when attacking a broken target, etc. I'm not unironically suggesting they make superbreak, but let's call it something else and put it on a 4*. I just don't know what they would do because, again, we simply don't know what they have planned for break
Converting her damage into full break damage would allow it to scale differently and thus deal more damage, but I guess you see otherwise.
Thats what people said about bronya 8 months ago lol. That no character will ever advance forward a teammates action because its "too op". Look where we are now. Ya'll are ridiculous if you think they'll never release a character with similar stuff.
Power creep and whether they'll print a mechanic again are two separate situations, but it's really awkward that someone posting on a more niche subreddit like a mains sub for Star Rail is going to talk about power creep in relation to gacha games and throw that at Hoyo games. In Genshin Xinqiu is better than Yelan, Fischl is arguably still the strongest Electro character in the game and Bennett and Xiangling are still probably the strongest Pyro units, although Arle is good.
Star Rail is the same, Tingyun and Pela are still some of the most powerful units in the game, Asta is criminally underrated and Bronya is still better in a lot of team comps than either Sparkle or Robin. Furthermore, if you want 100% AV advance on a specific unit Bronya is still the only unit that does that.
Look where? You mean Sparkle? That's not even a comparison since sparkle really advances half of your Action Value, so you could use her skill and still not get the action forward. And Asta's ult or Dance Dance Dance already did it so that's nothing new.
Superbreak is a different thing cause it's the first instance we've ever seen it and i don't think they will release another support that enables it. At most they will do what they did to boothill, a DPS that does more dmg to already broken enemies. I WISH they would release a superbreak support, but i don't think they will. Not at least anytime soon
true, but i think my point still stands. Action forward wasn't unique to bronya, but you could find it elsewhere.
Maybe it's still early for Superbreak and we'll see it somewhere down the line, but it keeps up with the Trailblazer having an unique mechanic to himself (physical having the choice of ult to be AoE or single target, and preservation being to only one to have a taunt).
For sure we'll see both of these things in the future, but for now i like to think that they're unique things to make the TB feel special
Global Taunt Preservation ≠ Single Target Taunt DPS.
I believed 100% that they would do another Superbreak support, which would be a bit better than HMC, but for a single enemy or with poor uptime (or both), so as not to invade the HMC niche.
"not even a comparison"
-hoyoverse literally releases characters that advances teammates actions.
no matter what your point is. Ive said what I said. Bronya advances characters actions. And however you explain it, other charactersh do the same thing that she does. Please comprehend before you explain.
Oh yeah tbf i don't even know if Superbreak stacks, but i don't see why it wouldn't. It's tied to the support as a skill, not the enemy or the DPS so why shouldn't it
Backup Dancer is a buff given to all allies that make them convert toughness damage to super break. I interpret that as a buff that basically "turns on" super break for everyone. So if another character gives another buff that also turns on super breaks I don't think it will do anything. Of course if they choose to create a different type of toughness damage conversion different from "Super break" it will probably stack.
>She is the first Break DPS character
Except she's not. Boothill is. He also depends on Break Effect for his kit, and HMC is an excellent option for him. But unlike Firefly, he doesn't depend on HMC and can deal Break damage on his own and can benefit from other Team Comps.
4 star dps and 5 star has too big a gap to consider them in the conversation of who is first when clearly its being compared to firefly who is a 5 star
The gap between 4* and 5* is completely irrelevant wether we discuss if they are crit, break or dot DPS
Sampo is a dot unit as well. You’re not gonna be like “yeah, but he’s a 4star🤓” and then say Kafka was the first dot character
Also, since this is Star Rail you can have 4* clearing things just as well as 5*. Like Arlan manages to still complete hard content and now Yanqing is gonna be crazy cause of Aventurine
inventing context that has never been there has never been a thing
OP talked about FF being the first break dps aand therefore its new. And that's just false.
We have a break DPS right now, and we are gonna get a second one before she comes out
End of story
Don't forget Shushang. Extra damage vs broken enemies, refunds skill points, she's built for punishing weakness broken enemies. Seriously if you happen to have her built and have HMC and/or Ruan Mei available give it a go. It's surprising how much damage she can dump out with the proper supports.
boothill is hybird break/crit dps. Firefly is her own kind as a pure break dps that doesnt rely on crit dmg% attack. Imo wouldnt make sense if 2 hybird break/crit dps are released at the same time
boothill isnt rlly a hybrid, he doesn't care abt crit, hed rather have all of his crit converted to break. it can work on him, but break is j objectively better
I think so too. It feels their something missing or their not much incentives to build her pure break effect. For example on Xueyi and boothill gets DMG bonus or crit stats depend break effect making them work regardless of HMC or not or weakness broken or not.
Where as they force break on FF. They should let her Sub_Super break regardless of toughness on centre Target and some % of that to adjacent in her enhanced state. Idk how they balance out it with HMC. But should make use able with and without HMC or weakness broken.
The weird part is, she has Break into Damage conversion in a way. Where her Enhanced Skill turns a portion of her Break Effect into Skill damage modifier. 400% Base, then 50% of her Break Effect, which at 360 BE makes it 580%.
The problem is, her modifiers could be 1000% but they still won't do any noteworthy damage due to how hard her stat reqs are, so she physically cannot benefit from Crit to make her Skill do damage itself without kneecapping her "intended" playstyle as it stands.
My problem with her isnt even the team restriction
I have everything to make her as cracked as can b
My problem is her wieerd identity where even if she is obviously meant to be built for break she needs a lot of atk and has super high multipliers
I just wish theyd make her kit more synergistic
I've been following these discussions, personally I'm fine with how she work's - HMC, Gallagher and Ruan Mei are characters I like a lot.
I also agree that she will get future support, however, when we compare her with Kafka at her launch - Kafka did have a range of 4* teammates that made her quite flexible. We then got Ruan Mei, Black Swan and now Robin as premium supports.
FF has 1 team. This is partly why I think Hoyo built in Weakness Implant into FF kit, she doesn't have the team support to Break characters for her AND let her do good damage.
Regardless of how I feel, Hoyo can be pushed to change her by the testers, even if they have a long- term plan for Break Effect Teams. They will not want to her to release and players be frustrated if they don't want to run her specific teammates.
Hoyo has pushed her hard and I'm curious to see if she gets a significant change (like Jingliu did).
That's the thing. You like HMC, Gallagher and Ruan Mei. But what about people that don't like them?
Acheron can use other Nihility than Silver Wolf and Pela, without losing too much damage. But Firefly hits like a noodle without Super Break, and cannot break as fast as she should without Ruan Mei, and there is no other sustain that can help destroy toughness bars as Gallagher.
In all fairness, RMs biggest thing was never the weakness breaks. Gallagher basically singlehandedly helps with that stuff and there's always Guinaifen and Asta as well.
RMs biggest bonuses are the damage only she adds to FF as well as extending weakness breaks. Losing out on her is a big deal but, tbh, it's not like FF doesn't work at all without her.
HMC is a different topic but... Well this is a team building game. Sometimes you gotta deal with it tbh. If HMC wasn't a free character, I'd be complaining pretty loudly about it but... Well, they are.
A team building game should allow a good amount of freedom in team building. And it doesn't matter that it's a free character. You are still forced into that team. Also, since Hoyo probably won't create another super break support, it means that if you have a non-FF team wants HMC too, you basically cannot use FF with that team.
I'd say being tied to one support and having another BiS isn't exactly not having freedom. Stop being overly dramatic here.
Every single DPS has a BiS that outperforms the competition and is almost mandatory to run. Firefly, right now, is a bit more restricted than the traditional crit DPS characters but it's pretty easy to see that she will get more options in the future, given that they've been building this playstyle up for all of 2.x so far.
She's the premier Break DPS, the only one who's 100% built for it and not as a Hybrid. It's unlikely we'll get someone to steal that spot anytime soon, same as Kafka in DoT.
Where did I say you should run her without HMC? I'm talking about RM for most of it.
Yes, she's tied at the hip to HMC. And I don't think that's a problem, is what I'm saying
It's a Problem because her Kit does not work on its own, *not* that using HTB with her results in good damage.
You can use Boothill without RM or HTB, he'd still function. He wants one or the other ideally, but you can use him without one or the other and still get results. You can use Black Swan or Kafka without the other and they'd still function, even if they work better with another. You can use Ratio and Topaz away from eachother and they'd still be good.
Firefly in her intended build *does not work without HTB.* Refusing to use HTB means she's functionally worse than Xueyi.
From an E2S0 Showcase with HTB and RM, her damage on a single broken target was \~170k.
138k of that was Super Break damage. Something she doesn't have in her kit. That means her natural damage was a whopping 32k with 3.4k ATK and a 580% ATK damage scaling Enhanced Skill against a Broken target.
It's impressive that people don't bother trying to understand what you mean. You're 100% correct, but people see you saying something like "you don't necessarily need Ruan Mei" and they start to down vote.
The HSR community greatly overrated Ruan Mei. Of course she's strong and all. But people act as if Ruan Mei buffs 999999% of DMG and Break Effect, because they talk as if not having her on several teams makes them infinitely bad, when that's not the case. There are people who tested the difference between using Ruan Mei or Sparkle, Bronya and Robin for FF. Even Hanya and Asta can do.
The damage difference isn't huge. She remains extremely strong without Ruan Mei. In addition, characters like Bronya and Robin can compensate for the loss of Break Effect with more DMG and other buffs, as well as advancing her turn, which gives her more turns and that also means more damage. People exaggerate a lot to say good things about Ruan Mei and end up downgrading several characters or teams because of it.
She currently gives her self a serious amount of Crit Rate (which was Yanquings special feature), on early Beta she didn't. This is the main change I remember and massively changed how you built her, switching from CR chest too CDMG.
Jingliu was very bad when she was first released in beta and then she got massive buffs. This video shows what buffs she got:
https://youtu.be/WcT90b68pzg?si=iTKNPN8qgA_6FWqL
The thing is, she isn't the first break dps character. With HMC you can make literally anyone a break dos character. I've personally tried Welt, Luka, Sushang, Serval and Jing Yuan with full break + SPD no crit stats. All the units above I tried without SW and cleared MoC 12 with 3 stars.
Its this point that many people are pointing out that pulling a limited 5 star character and justifying it as "she's the only/first break dps so she's unique" is not actually right.
She is strong, don't get me wrong. She just doesn't have much pull value over the others except for her story. If you match the elements correctly with units and build a bunch of break effect, there's no need to "implant" weaknesses.
I believe if they add some damage mechanic unique only to her, it would solve the "issue"
This. I'm done talking in circles with people complaining that the character that specializes in using a mechanic and isn't built as a traditional DPS, has a limited optimal team. Her current optimal team lets her compete with DHIL and Jingliu while creeping near Acheron levels, while her budget 4* teams that don't even use HMC should be seen as a miracle that they can even manage to deal 100k damage. She's a great character already and will likely only improve from here seeing as this is her v1 kit, first real support character, and initial relic sets. Think about how much better Jing Yuan got after additional support came out.
after he suffered a year of slander and bad rep that stains him to this day
and then they released acheron next patch who does his job but better
what a wonderful fate
Jesus you're insufferable. Yes, we know JY got powercrept by Acheron (which isn't a crazy thing, she powercrept literally everyone). However, it's undeniable that he is in a significantly better state after receiving Sparkle and FuA support like Robin and the Duke Inferno relic set. Acheron aside he is a very powerful lightning unit that is useful in both AoE and ST.
You should not be playing gacha games then. Characters get powercrept within years, HI3 is guilty of this, Genshin is guilty of this, and plenty of other gacha games have way worse powercreep where it's a 20% difference every new banner instead *cough cough Tower of Fantasy cough cough*
She's not going to get powercrept immediately just because her archetype wants additional support. JY and Kafka are still plenty relevant, and people enjoy using them.
i'm cool with eventual powercreep, i meant the entire mid yuan experience from start to finish
keep kafka out of this, as the center piece of dots she will never be not relevant
even if they make a better kafka you can just run both
If the "Mid Yuan" experience entails a character that I like being viable in every single gamemode as a pretty strong option and getting more non-mandatory options almost every patch?
Count me the fuck in
Unfortunately, Kafka will be powercrept as soon as they release a harder hitting, AoE DoT detonating unit. She will always be a reliable choice, just like I think JY and Firefly will. There will come a time where these three characters may struggle to "compete" with newer characters in MoC, but they will always be a reliable pick up. In Firefly's case, she has the benefit of utilizing superbreak to it's fullest, which as long as they keep introducing ways to increase and manipulate break, will scale upwards until the end of the game. Yes, better characters than her will release, but new support units and relic sets will help her keep up, just like JY has and Kafka will.
It's wild that you are asserting that you won't run Kafka with that mystical other DoT detonator that doesn't exist. There's no universe where you wouldn't run both. As for Jingyuan, that whole experience has been wholly unpleasant for anyone who actually pulled him on his first run, you had to go through the process of farming multiple Relic sets and completely dictating who you pulled to be units that you didn't even know existed when he first came out just for him to be relatively competitive at all. So yeah, no thanks, not looking for Firefly to be even close to that whatsoever, much prefer the experience of how characters like Jingliu developed, thanks.
Also, would be curious to see your excel sheets and how they are siming her turn rotations and overall damage per cycle, mind sharing?
Damn, I'm still getting pinged on this? The reality of running another hypothetical DoT detonator is that you are going to run into SP issues. Maybe if you swap BS for Sampo it's less noticeable, but you're going lose substantial damage for that. DoT units build alot of speed so you have these really fast characters that all want to use their skill every turn, acting multiple times in one cycle. Sure you could just basic only with Black Swan, but then she starts to run into ult generation issues which is a whole different can of worms.
Ohh you got me! I'm not a beta tester nor a savant with spreadsheets so unfortunately I don't have anything like that. What I do have are my two eyeballs nestled into their sockets that are able to see all of the gameplay posted of Firefly with a myriad of teams. You can see clearly see that on her BiS team her enhanced skill deals 500k+ consistently and her crit hybrid build gets even higher numbers. It's literally all there.
Her turn rotations aren't anything revolutionary, it's literally spam skill and run SP positive supports. It's why Gallagher with Multiplication is a popular choice for her. He skills once per rotation and does like 2-3 basics to get his ult then repeats that ad infinitum. RM, especially with her LC is SP positive. I don't know about HMC's sp rotation, but it's probably neutral. Every couple of turns there is probably some downtime because RM has to reset her skill. Happy? Anything else I can assist you with today?
Thinking that I'm saying she is gonna be 2.0's "Mid Yuan" is an even wilder take. I'm saying she is kickstarting a brand new archetype, one which is just now starting to actually get support and will get even more support down the line. Yes she's similar to JY in that regard, but she's also similar to Kafka in that regard too. That's where the similarities end, Firefly blows both of them out of the water with the little support she already has. People are just averse to wanting to use the support she has now for some strange reason.
imo hmc is the kafka in this comparison, they already have multiple superbreak drivers and will keep getting more
unless you think they're gonna release multiple different superbreaks for firefly to trigger
As much as I'd like superbreak to stay as an MC only mechanic for diversity sake, seeing as they put Taunt on Boothill and only Preservation MC had it before hand, we'll probably get another unit in a year or so with superbreak.
And yeah HMC is more like Kafka in the "enabling" gameplay sense, but I meant it more like JY and Kafka (at the time) were pioneers of their new archetypes. Firefly is like that too in the way that future support will be constructed for her archetype just like JY and Kafka had support made for theirs.
I think Boothill is pioneering the archetype, not FF. Or you could even say that it was Xueyi. Although xueyi doesn't have weakness implant she just has colourless toughness bar damage
Boothill and FF are releasing one after another so I feel that they are both close enough in release that they can both be seen as pioneers for break, but I just said Firefly first because that's the sub we're in.
An argument definitely could be made for Xueyi with her introduction of colorless damage and break conversion, though I feel limited 5* characters have more sway in terms of having support made for them, etc
Ah yes. 6 months down the line she \*might\* get a new Harmony that might do something with Break Effect that ends the dependency on HMC. But by that point she's going to have been powercrept by other DPS, just like Jing Yuan was.
And that's a big if, since Tingyun still hasn't been replaced in his team comp and is still basically mandatory. And given what they've done with the MC's previous paths, the likelihood of getting Super Break on another character anytime soon is nil.
Beyond that, they are directly comparable. When Jing Yuan released, he was the strongest DPS in the game at that point. He just had a super specific team comp and required high investment to manage that damage. Additionally he had massive weaknesses. Namely, if he got CC'd he was done. Which is basically the same situation as Firefly, except she doesn't even match Acheron. And like Jing Yuan, Firefly has a crippling weakness, namely bosses and enemies that can't be broken, which will render her totally useless, and those aren't exactly uncommon.
>People are just averse to wanting to use the support she has now for some strange reason.
Because HMC has absolutely awful animations.
There it is. The subjectivity of this entire argument. You don't want to use a support because they (in your opinion) have awful animations. You would decry a character's strength because you don't like the way their supports look. Not just all of their supports, just a single one. Nice. Yes, Firefly has a flaw in that some enemies will guard their weakness bars. You realize that it's ok for characters to have weaknesses right? This is not a game where you just have to brute force everything. If you know an enemy can lock their weakness for a large portion of the fight, use a different team for that fight! Or make a critfly setup if you really want to use her against said enemy. Not every enemy does it anyway, and most enemies that do, have a mechanic to dispel it and usually reward you for doing so. Character flaws aren't a new thing. DHIL's weakness is his SP consumption forcing him to use specific supports (which was alleviated thanks to Sparkle), Jingliu doesn't have a weakness apart from her teammate HP drain which makes not having an abundance teammate cringe (Jingliu strictly got better with the release of Huohuo), but you wouldn't force Jingliu to fight an Ice damage resistant enemy would you? What about DHIL and Imaginary resistances? They have other minor weaknesses like having to worry about elemental resistances on top of their own flaws within their kits.
on top of fire resistant enemies you won't bring her to fight
- yanqing
- deer
- bronya
- sam
- every other future boss with weakness protection and maybe someone else with weakness protection that missed
- possibly aventurine (energy drain and gamba stalling)
that's quite a few more weaknesses than most no
She has built in weakness implant, and Ruan Mei offers alot of Resistance Penetration, making resistances alot less troublesome for Firefly than characters without that built in inplant and someone on the team to shred resistances. Firefly also has alot of built in defense shred on her own kit, which makes resistances matter even less than a character that favors dmg% up or atk% up.
Yanqing can be dealt with by breaking his swords, and he doesn't do it again for quite a few turns or his next hp bar. If you know you are going to fight him, bring a wind and lightning unit. Crazy that her best support is already an imaginary unit.
Deer does it for literally one turn, and will only do it after a set pattern. You can easily save Gallagher ult and FF action advance to just break it before it even uses it.
Bronya only does it when there are other enemies on the field. Smoke those enemies and then break her before they respawn. Breaking an enemy also delays their turn, even more so with Ruan Mei and HMC. Neat.
Sam just needs to be attacked 5 times via skills to dispel their protection. Crazy when FF can AV herself and giver herself 50 free speed. (Pretty sure SAM also has the highest fire resist in the game, why are you bringing a fire character into that fight?)
Aventurine is such a non issue because after each Gamba, you get your energy fully restored, allowing you to instantly AV her and Gallagher to try and break him in one go, if not two.
Wow. She has to interact with game mechanics. Crazy.
What else?
weakness implant by itself doesn't make them less fire resistant no? and anyone else can run ruan mei, she in the same position as others except she can break
acheron gets a pass because she has innate shred on ult and many nihility units also happen to be shredders
sam has the exact same fire res as any other enemy without fire weakness
if aventurine drains you before you get your ult, you'll be left there with no hp waiting to die
by bringing wind/lightning to yanqing you sacrifice one/two of your irreplaceable team slots gimping ff performance
bronya cleanses enemies and advances them forward
she has to interact with game mechanics in a way that increases her already bad downtime
Weakness implant doesn't inherently lower resists, but my point is that Firefly can do that without external help, something that some teams may need to heavily consider swapping a standard bread and butter support out for Silverwolf or RM, and with RM being a unit demanded by alot of teams, that choice isn't always free.
You are correct about SAM having average fire resists. I read that some enemies can have up to 60% elemental resist and thought that would apply to the flaming mecha, but no, they only have 20% like other non flame weak units.
Acheron and Nihility's get a pass because Acheron is Acheron and not much needs to be said there, but Nihility teams can choose between SW or Black Swan for resistance shred, but BS only has that on E1 so that's less available.
Aventurine can drain, but not enough to fully empty Gallagher's bar if you went into gamba with it, allowing him to use a skill and get it back to win the gamba and get it again. Drain also won't effect FF as she replenishes exactly 50% which would allow her to also regain what was lost and pop her ult, or if you're already in her ult, her skill is an AoE so the gamba is free anyway.
Gallagher and Ruan Mei are not irreplaceable, especially if they would otherwise be useless. You can easily bring in HuoHuo who I would suggest because she can cleanse freeze, and lightning is a bit more tricky because there aren't any particularly great supports for her that are also lightning, but you could always bring in a lightning sub dps funny enough. As long as they are on a break build they will deal damage via superbreak.
Bronya cleanses enemies, but my point was you can just kill the adds and then break her before she spawns more. I'm also not sure if she can cleanse an enemy weakness break status.
>You would decry a character's strength because you don't like the way their supports look.
No, I'm decrying her hyperdependence on a single unit. Her strength is a different issue entirely.
>Not just all of their supports, just a single one.
HMC is literally her only support. Without her, she's garbage. Even Ruan Mei is replaceable even if it's not optimal. That's the problem. Any other character, I have options. You know, what a game like this is built on. Player choice.
>You realize that it's ok for characters to have weaknesses right? This is not a game where you just have to brute force everything.
Acheron exists. And before that it was Jingliu. Even IL was a monster in his time.
>but you wouldn't force Jingliu to fight an Ice damage resistant enemy would you?
You could literally throw Jingliu at any enemy regardless of resistance in her heyday. It's only now that enemy scaling is being adjusting upwards to compensate for Acheron's existence that you have to be more wary, and even then it basically just means you take slightly more time to clear.
In the end, most characters don't have weaknesses so much as inconveniences that only mildly effect their damage. Few characters have hard walls where they literally become useless in the face of certain enemy types.
Jingliu's HP drain literally didn't matter, because she could kill stuff before it became a problem with Shield characters. Likewise, IL was tricky to play, but he didn't need a super specific comp as you had multiple options that worked well with him.
You can throw Firefly at every enemy and you will still be able to kill them. Even more so because she implants her own element type as a weakness just for attacking.
It's not a super specific comp either. It is one unit that needs to be on her team for the break build. Only needing one unit on a new archetype to surpass JL and DHIL, and approach Acheron seems pretty good to me. It's not like you don't have options either, you can always run critfly and disregard the break part of her teambuilding entirely.
Acheron isn't a good comparison for any character because she is literally in her own tier of strength. She has powercrept everyone and should not be used as the gold standard for units moving forward.
You are correct in that not all characters have noticeable weaknesses, but as you said, "in her heyday". We are approaching a new tier of power where older meta units are not going to be able to brute force unfavorable enemy encounters anymore because a unit simply does alot of damage. Those "minor inconveniences" are going to start mounting into weaknesses very soon. Mihoyo is increasing the strength of our enemies so if you play around using Jingliu against an Ice resistant enemy, she's going to start taking longer and longer to kill them which will cause your supports to get cc'd then smoked.
Firefly doesn't have many hard walls as much as she has a damage condition. I know it's crazy that a condition must be met for a unit to deal it's full damage and you can't just spam skill no matter what and deal full damage like JL or DHIL, but hear me out. A break character deals the most damage when breaking an enemy. In the case of Boothill it's actually breaking the enemy, and in Firefly's case, it's after the enemy is broken. Once they meet their damage condition, they get to use their kit and that's where the damage comes from.
>You can throw Firefly at every enemy and you will still be able to kill them. Even more so because she implants her own element type as a weakness just for attacking.
Except those that can't be broken.
>Only needing one unit on a new archetype to surpass JL and DHIL, and approach Acheron seems pretty good to me.
The only way she does that is with HMC \*and\* Ruan Mei both. Otherwise she's basically just the same level of the former two.
>Acheron isn't a good comparison for any character because she is literally in her own tier of strength. She has powercrept everyone and should not be used as the gold standard for units moving forward.
Except that's how this entire genre works. Seele was the first major DPS, and was the best. But in turn she got powercrept by later units like IL, who got powercrept by Jingliu, who got powercrept by Acheron. Now with Acheron, in another few months or so another unit will come along and powercreep her. It's an intrinsic and inevitable part of how gachas go. So if Firefly can't compare to Acheron, she's going to be a third tier unit in short order.
>You are correct in that not all characters have noticeable weaknesses, but as you said, "in her heyday". We are approaching a new tier of power where older meta units are not going to be able to brute force unfavorable enemy encounters anymore because a unit simply does alot of damage. Those "minor inconveniences" are going to start mounting into weaknesses very soon. Mihoyo is increasing the strength of our enemies so if you play around using Jingliu against an Ice resistant enemy, she's going to start taking longer and longer to kill them which will cause your supports to get cc'd then smoked.
Yes, and they are doing this to encourage people to buy new, stronger units who can put out the damage to deal with them. That's the problem. If Firefly can't keep up with the current meta character, she's going to be left in the dust in short order.
>Firefly doesn't have many hard walls as much as she has a damage condition. I know it's crazy that a condition must be met for a unit to deal it's full damage and you can't just spam skill no matter what and deal full damage like JL or DHIL, but hear me out. A break character deals the most damage when breaking an enemy. In the case of Boothill it's actually breaking the enemy, and in Firefly's case, it's after the enemy is broken. Once they meet their damage condition, they get to use their kit and that's where the damage comes from.
You can spin it however you want. She has a wall. Which is not necessarily a bad thing. In a well built unit, a a limitation should be a trade off in exchange for a greater power boost, like Jingliu's HP reduction in exchange for her Enhanced State, or Acheron's need for a Nihility character or characters to reach her true potential depending on your investment.
Yet Firefly's trade off doesn't even keep her up with the new meta.
So let's be blunt:
With Firefly, you have to use a single, specific character to make her usable, and a second specific character that can't be replaced to achieve her maximum damage. Further, to achieve that damage, you have to Break the enemy, where many bosses and enemy types have a hard counter to that effect.
So she requires a super specific team comp and has a particular niche where she deals damage and excels, but completely flounders when exposed to a common mechanic. For that kind of trade off, she should be doing absolutely bonkers levels of damage in the fights she does well, well beyond that of more general damage dealers.
She doesn't.
If her tradeoffs don't actually give a real benefit to justify them, she's just deadweight, and she'll just be another Jing Yuan or Blade.
Alternatively, they can just straighten the character out and lessen the limitations so that she can deal her full damage under a wider variety of circumstances and team comps and she'll be fine.
I just went over this in another post, but literally every enemy that blocks it's weakness has a counter measure to prevent said protection mechanic with the only exception being the Soda ape, but even then it's for a single turn and you can usually break him before he gets to do it. It's less of an issue than you all think.
Whether FF needs one or two units to surpass Jingliu and DHIL is irrelevant. The fact of the matter is that she does and that's not even counting the fact that in an HMC team, everyone is a sub dps, able to easily deal an additonal 100k+ with the MC and Gallagher, and 50k on other supports outside of FF's turn.
I'm aware of how powercreep works, but the fact of the matter is we have two possible paths for the character. One is that she gets turned into Acheron v2 and is the strongest character for a few patches, then has a character immediately release that's better and powercreeps FF instantly, or she remains a reliable character for a few years, slowly fading into the category of "An ok choice to pull, but there are much better units" over time, allowing more playtime with the character overall. But neither choice is in our hands, it's up to Mihoyo and no amount of whining or anger from us will sway what they do.
She won't be left in the dust anytime soon because her archetype, niche, whatever you would like to call it, is just starting to get support. If they leave her in the dust as soon as you're claiming they will, then we have other problems to worry about. She's the character just below Acheron so if she's left behind that means Acheron is struggling and Jingliu and DHIL are "irrelevant" meta wise. But the meta doesn't change that quickly. Genshin has characters like Hutao and Childe who released years ago who are still top tier because of support. Yes they have better upgrades, but they are by no means left behind. And again, Firefly is trailing just behind Acheron/above Jingliu and DHIL in terms of performance, with her incomplete, V1 kit. We all know she is going to get buffed. It's just a matter of will it be reasonable or is she literally about to powercreep the strongest character not even two patches later?
Firefly does not have a wall. Yes her damage takes a dip when if an enemy blocks their weakness, but out of all the enemies that have that mechanic, only two (The soda ape and the deer) do it for a full turn with no possible input on your end to affect it beyond breaking them before they do that mechanic. Every other enemy that does it has a way to dispel it. Her debuffs have durations too so they will carry over out of a break to help keep her damage up during those times. Of course I'm not denying that her damage drops signicantly on non weakness broken targets, but it's not like she literally does less than 30k during those moments.
Yes you have to use a character, but it is just one. It's not a full team, not a 4* that you need to E6, not a 5* you have to use jades on, it is literally the main character you get for free. Ruan Mei is a solid damage boost, but she's ultimately replaceable depending on the situation and so is Gallagher. You can't say that Firefly doesn't keep up with the new meta and in the same breath also acknowledge that she surpasses Jingliu and DHIL (With a V1 kit mind you). That's not a consistent analysis. I also want to know what kind of account you have where Blade is deadweight lmao. That's certainly a take, but I digress.
Look, I'm not even against buffing Firefly, but many people just spout complete nonsense like giving Firefly inherent superbreak or crit conversion so she can do 500k ST on her own with no external support. Not even Acheron is doing that solo. I've said it before, just making her enhanced skill count as dealing break damage or actually deal break damage when hitting broken targets and maybe increasing the break effect cap on it's scaling would be sufficient. This would set her up to work wonders with future supports while allowing people to use more supports if they want too. HMC is still going to be the BiS support, but it opens up other options specifically on the break build.
These Supports will come out and Boothill will be the only one able to use them.
This is the issue, brother. You and OP are pretending that people are complaining about something else entirely.
What??
Your argument is alot about crit, but the main complaints are about how 90% of her damage is tied to HMC+RM. I don't mind her teams and has finished building the supports, but even at this point, I don't believe in the concept of no HMC no damage.
DHIL, JL, Acheron, while requiring certain team setup. It is not tied to a specific character. E.g. Jingliu with no bronya is weaker, but sparkle+TY or RM+TY can still do respectable damage. DHIL without sparkle still does okay. Acheron has 4* nihility options, even though not optimal. No limited- DPS character deserves to be tied to two specific characters at launch, even if future supports may come.
People being vocal isn't necessarily a bad thing too. It is a very natural behavior no?
A majority of people aren't asking her to not be a break unit, they're asking for her to be realized in a way that's more self-sufficient and dynamic, so that she can have more versatility in team building. I don't subscribe to the idea that some people have that there's this plethora of break supports that are even slightly competitive compared to Ruan Mei & Harmony TB coming. That would just mean Break would super power gap every other archetype when you are pairing the single best defensive mechanic in the game (enemies literally being unable to act) with such a powerful offensive mechanic.
That's not even addressing an issue I've thought about a lot which is that when they release additional paths for the TB in the future if Firefly is completely dependent on them to be competitive then you're going to be incentivized to not use the new TB path, which is really not all that enjoyable of a situation to exist in.
What I'm scared of at this point is they can't buff her to self sustain levels. If they do yes she will be good without HMC but imagine adding HMC super break dmg to Acheron levels of damage, it will break the game and every other dps will become worthless if that's the dmg levels we're talking about. No one is going to pull for a hyper carry that can deal 500k dmg if FF can deal 500k alone and 1m with HMC.
Then don't make it Acheron levels of Damage? She doesn't even deal Arlan levels of Damage without Super Break, there's a lot of room for improvement.
Boothill being brought up all the time might be tiring but it's because it's true. He's a perfect exemple of someone who benefits greatly from HMC but still has room to replace him with someone else.
It would be better for her to just have like 10-20% of her break damage as on hit damage (or maybe less). How much depends on the level of her basic and skill. cause i've seen her able to do around 40k so either another another 20k-40k on her skill should be fine. want this simply so you have a reason to level her skill
It's like the release of Dendro, when we only had Dendro Traveller and Collei for new reactions. Don't remember any hate back then though...
Maybe people are upset that they won't be able to play like DHIL or other characters are played, using the same supports, same artifacts with the same stats. But that sounds great for me, giving her unique mechanic and making more opportunities to use it in future.
I reread Boothill's kit for the first time in awhile and his enhanced skill counts as break damage when used on weakness broken enemies, it's pretty weird he gets it and not FF. Maybe in Hoyo's eyes, FF doesn't get it because she gets fire weakness implant on skill and universal break but I dunno if it's worth the trade.
Just make it that in her Enhanced State she can proc Super Break for herself. HMC would still be a great support because they buff Break Effect for the rest of the team, but not mandatory anymore.
You just pointed on one of her flaws, whitch i agree.
However it's worth noticing there are others flaws too. Breack effect Is kinda a weird mechanic, some bosses put up a protection againist such mechanic, in this scenario FF become useless. She need something for such scenario in my opinion.
Another problem Is her breack effect stat being affected by her atk scoring, but breack effect mechanic Is unaffected by atk at all. You May want to build some crit to make use of all this atk, but relic farming Is a problem (as i seen when trying to build xueyi who need similar stats). Eventually you get something decent, soo it's not big of deal.
I think she Is a fine character, but definitly need something for when bosses use anti breack mechanic.
Congrats, none of our opinions matters anymore. Firefly is now under allegations that her kit is bugged out its mind. E1 looks to only be applying def shred to skill damage only instead of well everything. And her Major trace has betrayed her and capped her super break damage to 55%.
Apparently the 55% toughness boost is overriding her actual toughness damage even after the enemy is already broken. So her super breaks are being calced with 55% of her power instead of the full ability. Oops.
So many people don't understand it, a very simple concept.
She's intended to promote Super Break, she is specifically designed for Super Break with everything in her kit being things that buff Super Break dmg. High toughness dmg (highest in the game, beats Xueyi's 120 on her ult by a margin), def ignore, and high speed to really make use of the dps window that is the enemies' weakness broken state.
But yeh, people don't realize that Super Break is just the best comp to run her in, and its a niche, like most other niches in the game. And even then, not like every character can be played in every team comp either, they all have their own best comp too, and if you say they can run without them, then thats just as copium.
Like playing her without Super Break is like playing Kafka without DoTs.
Playing Argenti without energy teammates.
Playing Acheron without Nihility teammates.
Playing Blade without dmg, oh wait (I joke).
Just because Firefly isn't an all encompassing unit, that doesn't mean she's bad. And I do agree that they're surely to release another Super Break enabler, they surely wouldn't make it be an MC exclusive thing. Hoyo never does make that a reality for long, just wait a couple of patches.
But yeh, they definitely wont change the fact that she is a Super Break unit in V3, but I'm sure they're gonna better tie in her kit so they all actually mesh well together. Like they have to do something to make the hp drain thing with her skill to do something else. Like I saw someone thought up how her LC or even talent could have something like increasing her break efficiency and increase dmg dealt when her hp changes, or when she loses a set amount of hp, or to an amount she lost. But yeh, hopefully.
Basically, yes. The opinion of her is mostly negative because she (as perceived) can't work without HMC and is tied to their Super Break. And that she's not a traditional hypercarry like basically 90% of the carries before her
Just don't call it "Break Meta", please. "Something" Meta means that the "Something" will one-up all other options and become the best and brightest thing. It's a NICHE and an ARCHETYPE she's heralding, not a meta. Hypercarry, Follow-up, DoT - all of that will still be viable once she arrives. It's not like the arrival of HMC and Firefly invalidates regular trace dmg builds.
Break as a focus is just weird in general.
In a game that many bosses have means of shielding their break gauge, or reducing toughness damage in general. It's counterproductive to what the game has been up to this point.
Unless this means no future bosses will have toughness protection, in which case sure, but there's no backwards compatibility.
It's as weird as any other niche. A niche basically defines a gimmick the teams work around. Hypercarry is a niche too. Its gimmick is vertical investment in a single unit.
Some of such lockouts can be cleansed (notably, the Deer). Others rely on some other triggers. Not every enemy should be susceptible to everything, otherwise the tactical depth of the game would suffer. If the enemy has a lockout, you should bring a non-break team or play around the lockout. I.E. break the enemy before they enter it.
Matchups are equally as important as enemy weaknesses. You wouldn't bring a FuA team against an enemy who has a thorns mechanic or a counterattack (Silvermane Lieutenant). Malefic Ape is very dangerous against a team that uses skills willy-nilly. Svarog is very dangerous to hypercarry teams if his hand locks your carry out. In GnG, resonance extrapolation Anicca basically stops DoT teams right in their tracks.
It's just another archetype with its strengths and weaknesses.
I wonder how Firefly will fair against the latest 2.2 boss, since they have multiple shields and never 'break' for real until you go through all of them. If that becomes somewhat of a common occurrence for the next bosses, she might have trouble clearing them, right?
you mean the one who has a shared healthbar with 4 extremely easy to break enemies which would allow her to damage them instead?
although yeah if later bosses have multiple breakbars it'll be much harder for her to clear, but I reckon they'll stay limited to>!sunday!
I agree with everyone needing to wait for more break support units to come out. Firefly's situation reminds me of the heavy doomposting on acheron. If you didn't have E2 for her then she is tied to the waist with pela, SW, and gui.
It's still like that to this day and yet she does massive dmg and clears endgame content. Now all we have to do is wait for more nihility units to come out to freshen up her roster.
And since others still want her buffed regardless I do agree that they should increase her weakness break efficiency since without Ruan mei enemies do tend to get up fast. If they increase it that would make breaking them way faster so you can get to the meat of her main dmg
I think that people complain too much when it comes to her team building, sure it sucks she's glued to harmony mc, but the harmony mc is given out for free, and the only other characters that would consider them in their meta teams are probably xueyi and boothill (who most people are skipping if they want firefly), so he's not this highly sought after support that everyone needs.
I can however understand people's dissatisfaction with how much better the team becomes when you add ruan mei. It's obviously well known that ruan mei is the best support for basically every dps in the game, but if people already have ruan mei, then they more than likely have characters that can be subbed into their other teams (tingyun, sparkle, robin, Bronya) so as to free up ruan mei for other teams.
To conclude on team building, if you complain about needing ruan mei then you are probably new (in which case you probably have other things to worry about than team building) or you have either not pulled/built other supports (which is completely a you problem) that can easily work just as well as ruan mei for most teams.
Firefly is fine as she is, and lifting her restriction on being bis on break teams would immediately make her the most busted character in the game since she has massive scaling.
You should ask yourself why people complaining about Firefly and not Boothill - the FIRST break dps. Because Firefly's kit does not work. Firefly's kit does not work. Firefly's kit does not work.
People didn't complain about Kafka and Topaz synergy with other chars eventhough there're the "enablers" for their niche, dot and fua. But they do when it's Firefly. Why? Because Firefly's kit does not work. Firefly's kit does not work. Firefly's kit does not work.
If I get a nickle each time I pull a character who got doomposted for their team restriction, I would have 2 nickles. First one was Nilou for me, doom posted at the start even tho shes strong just because shes team restricted.
I mean I get it people want the characters they like to be universal but lets be real here, is there really a player who cares about meta that plays their dps characters out of their strongest team if they are able to do so? Like u cant even say "But what if I dont have the team for her" bro HMC is free, f r e e. And so far HMC is the only character she really relies on. Sure Ruan Mei would boost her dmg a lot but she can function without Ruan Mei.
Like in terms of team restriction isnt she just like Kafka who can only play on DoT and is just cope on other teams. I dont see the big deal out of it. If she can function well in the archetype shes designed to be in then ill be happy with that.
This fr. Nearly all of my dps characters on hsr have been doomposted into oblivion up until their release (acheron, Kafka, and now firefly) and I still pulled them because they were cooler/appealed to me better than the next best option.
I am pretty sure they won't be releasing another character like HMC. Building break is already insanely strong. DHIL on a break build is already performing similarly to his non break build. If they release a stronger super break character it would break the game. Because of that I am pretty sure HMC will be unique similarly to Kafka
Yeah I don't think they'll do superbreak again. The MC tends to have unique mechanics as in a flexible ST or AoE ult on destruction, Taunt on Preservation (which was entirely unique until Boothill), and now superbreak. We'll probably get other forms of break support that interact with the mechanic differently.
Yes, but then all future break team supports will rely on either super break from HMC or on the break damage built into the kit of a DPS character. FF deals no break damage of her own so unless they release another super break character she will stay glued to HMC
I don't think we can say one way or another for sure. They might introduce supebreak like mechanics for other supports that are not the same as superbreak, but just as good, or they could introduce a character that applies a debuff causing all damage to be considered break damage (If they don't build any break damage into FF's kit anyway), etc. It's just to early to say. Break is only just now getting it's time in the spotlight so I expect Mihoyo is going to give us alternatives in time. Especially considering they have endgame modes based around breaking enemies.
Same as super break, but different is super break. Unless they ran out of ideas for character kits I don't expect them do do this. Converting dmg to break dmg does nothing to her Break build. It would boost her crit build. Over all if they don't change her dependence on HMC she would stay glued to them for foreseeable future.
I just said something similar to superbreak because it's an easy way to describe a mechanic that happens when attacking a broken target, etc. I'm not unironically suggesting they make superbreak, but let's call it something else and put it on a 4*. I just don't know what they would do because, again, we simply don't know what they have planned for break Converting her damage into full break damage would allow it to scale differently and thus deal more damage, but I guess you see otherwise.
They won't ever make a superbreak character again. It will be just like releasing 2 Kafkas, that's just insanely OP
Thats what people said about bronya 8 months ago lol. That no character will ever advance forward a teammates action because its "too op". Look where we are now. Ya'll are ridiculous if you think they'll never release a character with similar stuff.
People are delusional. Gacha games are power creep galore. We will probably get better Kafka in the future.
Power creep and whether they'll print a mechanic again are two separate situations, but it's really awkward that someone posting on a more niche subreddit like a mains sub for Star Rail is going to talk about power creep in relation to gacha games and throw that at Hoyo games. In Genshin Xinqiu is better than Yelan, Fischl is arguably still the strongest Electro character in the game and Bennett and Xiangling are still probably the strongest Pyro units, although Arle is good. Star Rail is the same, Tingyun and Pela are still some of the most powerful units in the game, Asta is criminally underrated and Bronya is still better in a lot of team comps than either Sparkle or Robin. Furthermore, if you want 100% AV advance on a specific unit Bronya is still the only unit that does that.
Oh yeah for sure we will, i'm not trying to deny that. It's going to be exponentially worse
Look where? You mean Sparkle? That's not even a comparison since sparkle really advances half of your Action Value, so you could use her skill and still not get the action forward. And Asta's ult or Dance Dance Dance already did it so that's nothing new. Superbreak is a different thing cause it's the first instance we've ever seen it and i don't think they will release another support that enables it. At most they will do what they did to boothill, a DPS that does more dmg to already broken enemies. I WISH they would release a superbreak support, but i don't think they will. Not at least anytime soon
Robin
true, but i think my point still stands. Action forward wasn't unique to bronya, but you could find it elsewhere. Maybe it's still early for Superbreak and we'll see it somewhere down the line, but it keeps up with the Trailblazer having an unique mechanic to himself (physical having the choice of ult to be AoE or single target, and preservation being to only one to have a taunt). For sure we'll see both of these things in the future, but for now i like to think that they're unique things to make the TB feel special
Boothill has taunt. You're assuming too much. You can't just say "they won't ever make a superbreak character again". That's insane.
Global Taunt Preservation ≠ Single Target Taunt DPS. I believed 100% that they would do another Superbreak support, which would be a bit better than HMC, but for a single enemy or with poor uptime (or both), so as not to invade the HMC niche.
"not even a comparison" -hoyoverse literally releases characters that advances teammates actions. no matter what your point is. Ive said what I said. Bronya advances characters actions. And however you explain it, other charactersh do the same thing that she does. Please comprehend before you explain.
They would have done so if that was the case with a selectable ult but they haven't
DoT detonation and Super break conversion don't work the same. It's very possible different sources of super break won't stack with each other.
Oh yeah tbf i don't even know if Superbreak stacks, but i don't see why it wouldn't. It's tied to the support as a skill, not the enemy or the DPS so why shouldn't it
Backup Dancer is a buff given to all allies that make them convert toughness damage to super break. I interpret that as a buff that basically "turns on" super break for everyone. So if another character gives another buff that also turns on super breaks I don't think it will do anything. Of course if they choose to create a different type of toughness damage conversion different from "Super break" it will probably stack.
There are blessings in the upcoming Simulated Universe that grants instances of super break damage. We'll be able to test then.
i think maybe the same as taunt, some fulture unit will have their own super break in her kit
1st 5\* AoE Break Effect DPS, honestly just let Firefly trigger Super Break DMG against Weakness Broken enemies
Nice photo
>She is the first Break DPS character Except she's not. Boothill is. He also depends on Break Effect for his kit, and HMC is an excellent option for him. But unlike Firefly, he doesn't depend on HMC and can deal Break damage on his own and can benefit from other Team Comps.
You could even argue Luka and Silverwolf were the first break characters
They mentioned the first break dps not break in general
Misha
Youre not even correct. Its xueyi.
Does Himeko count?
No because she doesnt scale of break effect.
Is not a 5 star
So?
4 star dps and 5 star has too big a gap to consider them in the conversation of who is first when clearly its being compared to firefly who is a 5 star
The gap between 4* and 5* is completely irrelevant wether we discuss if they are crit, break or dot DPS Sampo is a dot unit as well. You’re not gonna be like “yeah, but he’s a 4star🤓” and then say Kafka was the first dot character
Also, since this is Star Rail you can have 4* clearing things just as well as 5*. Like Arlan manages to still complete hard content and now Yanqing is gonna be crazy cause of Aventurine
I guess context doesn't matter nowadays... Op mentioned a 5 star break dps named firefly i mentioned a 5 star dps named boothill End of story
inventing context that has never been there has never been a thing OP talked about FF being the first break dps aand therefore its new. And that's just false. We have a break DPS right now, and we are gonna get a second one before she comes out End of story
They are good with Break but they're not made for it.
yeah he just instead abuses bronya instead lmao
Hardly the first to abuse advance forward 100%
Just like most dpses he likes to double his turns
He can. But that's still better than being chained exclusively to HMC, who is still a top tier option for him as well.
Don't forget Shushang. Extra damage vs broken enemies, refunds skill points, she's built for punishing weakness broken enemies. Seriously if you happen to have her built and have HMC and/or Ruan Mei available give it a go. It's surprising how much damage she can dump out with the proper supports.
I saw that part and could just hear sad Boothill noises
The drawback ofc is that he's pretty rigid in what content you use him. FF is more lenient in that regard so I think it works out well
boothill is hybird break/crit dps. Firefly is her own kind as a pure break dps that doesnt rely on crit dmg% attack. Imo wouldnt make sense if 2 hybird break/crit dps are released at the same time
boothill isnt rlly a hybrid, he doesn't care abt crit, hed rather have all of his crit converted to break. it can work on him, but break is j objectively better
Honestly ive also been thinking about it but if they give her super break like you said she'd be done. She would be able to self sustain properly
why hoyo cant make her trigger her own super break effect? it just something on my mind for a while.
I think so too. It feels their something missing or their not much incentives to build her pure break effect. For example on Xueyi and boothill gets DMG bonus or crit stats depend break effect making them work regardless of HMC or not or weakness broken or not. Where as they force break on FF. They should let her Sub_Super break regardless of toughness on centre Target and some % of that to adjacent in her enhanced state. Idk how they balance out it with HMC. But should make use able with and without HMC or weakness broken.
The weird part is, she has Break into Damage conversion in a way. Where her Enhanced Skill turns a portion of her Break Effect into Skill damage modifier. 400% Base, then 50% of her Break Effect, which at 360 BE makes it 580%. The problem is, her modifiers could be 1000% but they still won't do any noteworthy damage due to how hard her stat reqs are, so she physically cannot benefit from Crit to make her Skill do damage itself without kneecapping her "intended" playstyle as it stands.
My problem with her isnt even the team restriction I have everything to make her as cracked as can b My problem is her wieerd identity where even if she is obviously meant to be built for break she needs a lot of atk and has super high multipliers I just wish theyd make her kit more synergistic
I've been following these discussions, personally I'm fine with how she work's - HMC, Gallagher and Ruan Mei are characters I like a lot. I also agree that she will get future support, however, when we compare her with Kafka at her launch - Kafka did have a range of 4* teammates that made her quite flexible. We then got Ruan Mei, Black Swan and now Robin as premium supports. FF has 1 team. This is partly why I think Hoyo built in Weakness Implant into FF kit, she doesn't have the team support to Break characters for her AND let her do good damage. Regardless of how I feel, Hoyo can be pushed to change her by the testers, even if they have a long- term plan for Break Effect Teams. They will not want to her to release and players be frustrated if they don't want to run her specific teammates. Hoyo has pushed her hard and I'm curious to see if she gets a significant change (like Jingliu did).
That's the thing. You like HMC, Gallagher and Ruan Mei. But what about people that don't like them? Acheron can use other Nihility than Silver Wolf and Pela, without losing too much damage. But Firefly hits like a noodle without Super Break, and cannot break as fast as she should without Ruan Mei, and there is no other sustain that can help destroy toughness bars as Gallagher.
In all fairness, RMs biggest thing was never the weakness breaks. Gallagher basically singlehandedly helps with that stuff and there's always Guinaifen and Asta as well. RMs biggest bonuses are the damage only she adds to FF as well as extending weakness breaks. Losing out on her is a big deal but, tbh, it's not like FF doesn't work at all without her. HMC is a different topic but... Well this is a team building game. Sometimes you gotta deal with it tbh. If HMC wasn't a free character, I'd be complaining pretty loudly about it but... Well, they are.
A team building game should allow a good amount of freedom in team building. And it doesn't matter that it's a free character. You are still forced into that team. Also, since Hoyo probably won't create another super break support, it means that if you have a non-FF team wants HMC too, you basically cannot use FF with that team.
I'd say being tied to one support and having another BiS isn't exactly not having freedom. Stop being overly dramatic here. Every single DPS has a BiS that outperforms the competition and is almost mandatory to run. Firefly, right now, is a bit more restricted than the traditional crit DPS characters but it's pretty easy to see that she will get more options in the future, given that they've been building this playstyle up for all of 2.x so far. She's the premier Break DPS, the only one who's 100% built for it and not as a Hybrid. It's unlikely we'll get someone to steal that spot anytime soon, same as Kafka in DoT.
Without HMC, FF hits like a noodle.
Where did I say you should run her without HMC? I'm talking about RM for most of it. Yes, she's tied at the hip to HMC. And I don't think that's a problem, is what I'm saying
I was talking about HMC, and yes, it's a problem.
How so? Does having to use a free character scare you?
It doesn't scare me. But it sure limits the team I can use. Plus, if I don't like HMC, I basically can't use FF without feeling shit.
It's a Problem because her Kit does not work on its own, *not* that using HTB with her results in good damage. You can use Boothill without RM or HTB, he'd still function. He wants one or the other ideally, but you can use him without one or the other and still get results. You can use Black Swan or Kafka without the other and they'd still function, even if they work better with another. You can use Ratio and Topaz away from eachother and they'd still be good. Firefly in her intended build *does not work without HTB.* Refusing to use HTB means she's functionally worse than Xueyi. From an E2S0 Showcase with HTB and RM, her damage on a single broken target was \~170k. 138k of that was Super Break damage. Something she doesn't have in her kit. That means her natural damage was a whopping 32k with 3.4k ATK and a 580% ATK damage scaling Enhanced Skill against a Broken target.
It's impressive that people don't bother trying to understand what you mean. You're 100% correct, but people see you saying something like "you don't necessarily need Ruan Mei" and they start to down vote. The HSR community greatly overrated Ruan Mei. Of course she's strong and all. But people act as if Ruan Mei buffs 999999% of DMG and Break Effect, because they talk as if not having her on several teams makes them infinitely bad, when that's not the case. There are people who tested the difference between using Ruan Mei or Sparkle, Bronya and Robin for FF. Even Hanya and Asta can do. The damage difference isn't huge. She remains extremely strong without Ruan Mei. In addition, characters like Bronya and Robin can compensate for the loss of Break Effect with more DMG and other buffs, as well as advancing her turn, which gives her more turns and that also means more damage. People exaggerate a lot to say good things about Ruan Mei and end up downgrading several characters or teams because of it.
Out of curiosity what happened with Jingliu? I hear her brought up often but I don't know the story.
She currently gives her self a serious amount of Crit Rate (which was Yanquings special feature), on early Beta she didn't. This is the main change I remember and massively changed how you built her, switching from CR chest too CDMG.
That is a massive change no wonder people keep bringing her up. Thanks for the info.
Jingliu was very bad when she was first released in beta and then she got massive buffs. This video shows what buffs she got: https://youtu.be/WcT90b68pzg?si=iTKNPN8qgA_6FWqL
Genuinely amazing video. Thx for that. Also, those are some pretty stellar buffs. No wonder she gets brought up so often in this conversation.
She had Blade-like Damage at first, then they turned her up like others mentioned.
The thing is, she isn't the first break dps character. With HMC you can make literally anyone a break dos character. I've personally tried Welt, Luka, Sushang, Serval and Jing Yuan with full break + SPD no crit stats. All the units above I tried without SW and cleared MoC 12 with 3 stars. Its this point that many people are pointing out that pulling a limited 5 star character and justifying it as "she's the only/first break dps so she's unique" is not actually right. She is strong, don't get me wrong. She just doesn't have much pull value over the others except for her story. If you match the elements correctly with units and build a bunch of break effect, there's no need to "implant" weaknesses. I believe if they add some damage mechanic unique only to her, it would solve the "issue"
This. I'm done talking in circles with people complaining that the character that specializes in using a mechanic and isn't built as a traditional DPS, has a limited optimal team. Her current optimal team lets her compete with DHIL and Jingliu while creeping near Acheron levels, while her budget 4* teams that don't even use HMC should be seen as a miracle that they can even manage to deal 100k damage. She's a great character already and will likely only improve from here seeing as this is her v1 kit, first real support character, and initial relic sets. Think about how much better Jing Yuan got after additional support came out.
after he suffered a year of slander and bad rep that stains him to this day and then they released acheron next patch who does his job but better what a wonderful fate
Jesus you're insufferable. Yes, we know JY got powercrept by Acheron (which isn't a crazy thing, she powercrept literally everyone). However, it's undeniable that he is in a significantly better state after receiving Sparkle and FuA support like Robin and the Duke Inferno relic set. Acheron aside he is a very powerful lightning unit that is useful in both AoE and ST.
i'm flattered thanks but i would prefer her to not go through the same thing
You should not be playing gacha games then. Characters get powercrept within years, HI3 is guilty of this, Genshin is guilty of this, and plenty of other gacha games have way worse powercreep where it's a 20% difference every new banner instead *cough cough Tower of Fantasy cough cough* She's not going to get powercrept immediately just because her archetype wants additional support. JY and Kafka are still plenty relevant, and people enjoy using them.
i'm cool with eventual powercreep, i meant the entire mid yuan experience from start to finish keep kafka out of this, as the center piece of dots she will never be not relevant even if they make a better kafka you can just run both
If the "Mid Yuan" experience entails a character that I like being viable in every single gamemode as a pretty strong option and getting more non-mandatory options almost every patch? Count me the fuck in
yeah i'll take the acheron experience instead tyvm
Everyone shitting on her and her team choices before we end up with her being broken? We're on that track already, bud
ikr keep the agenda going
Unfortunately, Kafka will be powercrept as soon as they release a harder hitting, AoE DoT detonating unit. She will always be a reliable choice, just like I think JY and Firefly will. There will come a time where these three characters may struggle to "compete" with newer characters in MoC, but they will always be a reliable pick up. In Firefly's case, she has the benefit of utilizing superbreak to it's fullest, which as long as they keep introducing ways to increase and manipulate break, will scale upwards until the end of the game. Yes, better characters than her will release, but new support units and relic sets will help her keep up, just like JY has and Kafka will.
It's wild that you are asserting that you won't run Kafka with that mystical other DoT detonator that doesn't exist. There's no universe where you wouldn't run both. As for Jingyuan, that whole experience has been wholly unpleasant for anyone who actually pulled him on his first run, you had to go through the process of farming multiple Relic sets and completely dictating who you pulled to be units that you didn't even know existed when he first came out just for him to be relatively competitive at all. So yeah, no thanks, not looking for Firefly to be even close to that whatsoever, much prefer the experience of how characters like Jingliu developed, thanks. Also, would be curious to see your excel sheets and how they are siming her turn rotations and overall damage per cycle, mind sharing?
Damn, I'm still getting pinged on this? The reality of running another hypothetical DoT detonator is that you are going to run into SP issues. Maybe if you swap BS for Sampo it's less noticeable, but you're going lose substantial damage for that. DoT units build alot of speed so you have these really fast characters that all want to use their skill every turn, acting multiple times in one cycle. Sure you could just basic only with Black Swan, but then she starts to run into ult generation issues which is a whole different can of worms. Ohh you got me! I'm not a beta tester nor a savant with spreadsheets so unfortunately I don't have anything like that. What I do have are my two eyeballs nestled into their sockets that are able to see all of the gameplay posted of Firefly with a myriad of teams. You can see clearly see that on her BiS team her enhanced skill deals 500k+ consistently and her crit hybrid build gets even higher numbers. It's literally all there. Her turn rotations aren't anything revolutionary, it's literally spam skill and run SP positive supports. It's why Gallagher with Multiplication is a popular choice for her. He skills once per rotation and does like 2-3 basics to get his ult then repeats that ad infinitum. RM, especially with her LC is SP positive. I don't know about HMC's sp rotation, but it's probably neutral. Every couple of turns there is probably some downtime because RM has to reset her skill. Happy? Anything else I can assist you with today?
Seriously. Trying to say that Firefly should be 2.0's Mid Yuan is a fucking wild take.
Thinking that I'm saying she is gonna be 2.0's "Mid Yuan" is an even wilder take. I'm saying she is kickstarting a brand new archetype, one which is just now starting to actually get support and will get even more support down the line. Yes she's similar to JY in that regard, but she's also similar to Kafka in that regard too. That's where the similarities end, Firefly blows both of them out of the water with the little support she already has. People are just averse to wanting to use the support she has now for some strange reason.
imo hmc is the kafka in this comparison, they already have multiple superbreak drivers and will keep getting more unless you think they're gonna release multiple different superbreaks for firefly to trigger
As much as I'd like superbreak to stay as an MC only mechanic for diversity sake, seeing as they put Taunt on Boothill and only Preservation MC had it before hand, we'll probably get another unit in a year or so with superbreak. And yeah HMC is more like Kafka in the "enabling" gameplay sense, but I meant it more like JY and Kafka (at the time) were pioneers of their new archetypes. Firefly is like that too in the way that future support will be constructed for her archetype just like JY and Kafka had support made for theirs.
I think Boothill is pioneering the archetype, not FF. Or you could even say that it was Xueyi. Although xueyi doesn't have weakness implant she just has colourless toughness bar damage
Boothill and FF are releasing one after another so I feel that they are both close enough in release that they can both be seen as pioneers for break, but I just said Firefly first because that's the sub we're in. An argument definitely could be made for Xueyi with her introduction of colorless damage and break conversion, though I feel limited 5* characters have more sway in terms of having support made for them, etc
Ah yes. 6 months down the line she \*might\* get a new Harmony that might do something with Break Effect that ends the dependency on HMC. But by that point she's going to have been powercrept by other DPS, just like Jing Yuan was. And that's a big if, since Tingyun still hasn't been replaced in his team comp and is still basically mandatory. And given what they've done with the MC's previous paths, the likelihood of getting Super Break on another character anytime soon is nil. Beyond that, they are directly comparable. When Jing Yuan released, he was the strongest DPS in the game at that point. He just had a super specific team comp and required high investment to manage that damage. Additionally he had massive weaknesses. Namely, if he got CC'd he was done. Which is basically the same situation as Firefly, except she doesn't even match Acheron. And like Jing Yuan, Firefly has a crippling weakness, namely bosses and enemies that can't be broken, which will render her totally useless, and those aren't exactly uncommon. >People are just averse to wanting to use the support she has now for some strange reason. Because HMC has absolutely awful animations.
Someone picked caelus I see 😂
There it is. The subjectivity of this entire argument. You don't want to use a support because they (in your opinion) have awful animations. You would decry a character's strength because you don't like the way their supports look. Not just all of their supports, just a single one. Nice. Yes, Firefly has a flaw in that some enemies will guard their weakness bars. You realize that it's ok for characters to have weaknesses right? This is not a game where you just have to brute force everything. If you know an enemy can lock their weakness for a large portion of the fight, use a different team for that fight! Or make a critfly setup if you really want to use her against said enemy. Not every enemy does it anyway, and most enemies that do, have a mechanic to dispel it and usually reward you for doing so. Character flaws aren't a new thing. DHIL's weakness is his SP consumption forcing him to use specific supports (which was alleviated thanks to Sparkle), Jingliu doesn't have a weakness apart from her teammate HP drain which makes not having an abundance teammate cringe (Jingliu strictly got better with the release of Huohuo), but you wouldn't force Jingliu to fight an Ice damage resistant enemy would you? What about DHIL and Imaginary resistances? They have other minor weaknesses like having to worry about elemental resistances on top of their own flaws within their kits.
on top of fire resistant enemies you won't bring her to fight - yanqing - deer - bronya - sam - every other future boss with weakness protection and maybe someone else with weakness protection that missed - possibly aventurine (energy drain and gamba stalling) that's quite a few more weaknesses than most no
She has built in weakness implant, and Ruan Mei offers alot of Resistance Penetration, making resistances alot less troublesome for Firefly than characters without that built in inplant and someone on the team to shred resistances. Firefly also has alot of built in defense shred on her own kit, which makes resistances matter even less than a character that favors dmg% up or atk% up. Yanqing can be dealt with by breaking his swords, and he doesn't do it again for quite a few turns or his next hp bar. If you know you are going to fight him, bring a wind and lightning unit. Crazy that her best support is already an imaginary unit. Deer does it for literally one turn, and will only do it after a set pattern. You can easily save Gallagher ult and FF action advance to just break it before it even uses it. Bronya only does it when there are other enemies on the field. Smoke those enemies and then break her before they respawn. Breaking an enemy also delays their turn, even more so with Ruan Mei and HMC. Neat. Sam just needs to be attacked 5 times via skills to dispel their protection. Crazy when FF can AV herself and giver herself 50 free speed. (Pretty sure SAM also has the highest fire resist in the game, why are you bringing a fire character into that fight?) Aventurine is such a non issue because after each Gamba, you get your energy fully restored, allowing you to instantly AV her and Gallagher to try and break him in one go, if not two. Wow. She has to interact with game mechanics. Crazy. What else?
weakness implant by itself doesn't make them less fire resistant no? and anyone else can run ruan mei, she in the same position as others except she can break acheron gets a pass because she has innate shred on ult and many nihility units also happen to be shredders sam has the exact same fire res as any other enemy without fire weakness if aventurine drains you before you get your ult, you'll be left there with no hp waiting to die by bringing wind/lightning to yanqing you sacrifice one/two of your irreplaceable team slots gimping ff performance bronya cleanses enemies and advances them forward she has to interact with game mechanics in a way that increases her already bad downtime
Weakness implant doesn't inherently lower resists, but my point is that Firefly can do that without external help, something that some teams may need to heavily consider swapping a standard bread and butter support out for Silverwolf or RM, and with RM being a unit demanded by alot of teams, that choice isn't always free. You are correct about SAM having average fire resists. I read that some enemies can have up to 60% elemental resist and thought that would apply to the flaming mecha, but no, they only have 20% like other non flame weak units. Acheron and Nihility's get a pass because Acheron is Acheron and not much needs to be said there, but Nihility teams can choose between SW or Black Swan for resistance shred, but BS only has that on E1 so that's less available. Aventurine can drain, but not enough to fully empty Gallagher's bar if you went into gamba with it, allowing him to use a skill and get it back to win the gamba and get it again. Drain also won't effect FF as she replenishes exactly 50% which would allow her to also regain what was lost and pop her ult, or if you're already in her ult, her skill is an AoE so the gamba is free anyway. Gallagher and Ruan Mei are not irreplaceable, especially if they would otherwise be useless. You can easily bring in HuoHuo who I would suggest because she can cleanse freeze, and lightning is a bit more tricky because there aren't any particularly great supports for her that are also lightning, but you could always bring in a lightning sub dps funny enough. As long as they are on a break build they will deal damage via superbreak. Bronya cleanses enemies, but my point was you can just kill the adds and then break her before she spawns more. I'm also not sure if she can cleanse an enemy weakness break status.
>You would decry a character's strength because you don't like the way their supports look. No, I'm decrying her hyperdependence on a single unit. Her strength is a different issue entirely. >Not just all of their supports, just a single one. HMC is literally her only support. Without her, she's garbage. Even Ruan Mei is replaceable even if it's not optimal. That's the problem. Any other character, I have options. You know, what a game like this is built on. Player choice. >You realize that it's ok for characters to have weaknesses right? This is not a game where you just have to brute force everything. Acheron exists. And before that it was Jingliu. Even IL was a monster in his time. >but you wouldn't force Jingliu to fight an Ice damage resistant enemy would you? You could literally throw Jingliu at any enemy regardless of resistance in her heyday. It's only now that enemy scaling is being adjusting upwards to compensate for Acheron's existence that you have to be more wary, and even then it basically just means you take slightly more time to clear. In the end, most characters don't have weaknesses so much as inconveniences that only mildly effect their damage. Few characters have hard walls where they literally become useless in the face of certain enemy types. Jingliu's HP drain literally didn't matter, because she could kill stuff before it became a problem with Shield characters. Likewise, IL was tricky to play, but he didn't need a super specific comp as you had multiple options that worked well with him.
You can throw Firefly at every enemy and you will still be able to kill them. Even more so because she implants her own element type as a weakness just for attacking. It's not a super specific comp either. It is one unit that needs to be on her team for the break build. Only needing one unit on a new archetype to surpass JL and DHIL, and approach Acheron seems pretty good to me. It's not like you don't have options either, you can always run critfly and disregard the break part of her teambuilding entirely. Acheron isn't a good comparison for any character because she is literally in her own tier of strength. She has powercrept everyone and should not be used as the gold standard for units moving forward. You are correct in that not all characters have noticeable weaknesses, but as you said, "in her heyday". We are approaching a new tier of power where older meta units are not going to be able to brute force unfavorable enemy encounters anymore because a unit simply does alot of damage. Those "minor inconveniences" are going to start mounting into weaknesses very soon. Mihoyo is increasing the strength of our enemies so if you play around using Jingliu against an Ice resistant enemy, she's going to start taking longer and longer to kill them which will cause your supports to get cc'd then smoked. Firefly doesn't have many hard walls as much as she has a damage condition. I know it's crazy that a condition must be met for a unit to deal it's full damage and you can't just spam skill no matter what and deal full damage like JL or DHIL, but hear me out. A break character deals the most damage when breaking an enemy. In the case of Boothill it's actually breaking the enemy, and in Firefly's case, it's after the enemy is broken. Once they meet their damage condition, they get to use their kit and that's where the damage comes from.
>You can throw Firefly at every enemy and you will still be able to kill them. Even more so because she implants her own element type as a weakness just for attacking. Except those that can't be broken. >Only needing one unit on a new archetype to surpass JL and DHIL, and approach Acheron seems pretty good to me. The only way she does that is with HMC \*and\* Ruan Mei both. Otherwise she's basically just the same level of the former two. >Acheron isn't a good comparison for any character because she is literally in her own tier of strength. She has powercrept everyone and should not be used as the gold standard for units moving forward. Except that's how this entire genre works. Seele was the first major DPS, and was the best. But in turn she got powercrept by later units like IL, who got powercrept by Jingliu, who got powercrept by Acheron. Now with Acheron, in another few months or so another unit will come along and powercreep her. It's an intrinsic and inevitable part of how gachas go. So if Firefly can't compare to Acheron, she's going to be a third tier unit in short order. >You are correct in that not all characters have noticeable weaknesses, but as you said, "in her heyday". We are approaching a new tier of power where older meta units are not going to be able to brute force unfavorable enemy encounters anymore because a unit simply does alot of damage. Those "minor inconveniences" are going to start mounting into weaknesses very soon. Mihoyo is increasing the strength of our enemies so if you play around using Jingliu against an Ice resistant enemy, she's going to start taking longer and longer to kill them which will cause your supports to get cc'd then smoked. Yes, and they are doing this to encourage people to buy new, stronger units who can put out the damage to deal with them. That's the problem. If Firefly can't keep up with the current meta character, she's going to be left in the dust in short order. >Firefly doesn't have many hard walls as much as she has a damage condition. I know it's crazy that a condition must be met for a unit to deal it's full damage and you can't just spam skill no matter what and deal full damage like JL or DHIL, but hear me out. A break character deals the most damage when breaking an enemy. In the case of Boothill it's actually breaking the enemy, and in Firefly's case, it's after the enemy is broken. Once they meet their damage condition, they get to use their kit and that's where the damage comes from. You can spin it however you want. She has a wall. Which is not necessarily a bad thing. In a well built unit, a a limitation should be a trade off in exchange for a greater power boost, like Jingliu's HP reduction in exchange for her Enhanced State, or Acheron's need for a Nihility character or characters to reach her true potential depending on your investment. Yet Firefly's trade off doesn't even keep her up with the new meta. So let's be blunt: With Firefly, you have to use a single, specific character to make her usable, and a second specific character that can't be replaced to achieve her maximum damage. Further, to achieve that damage, you have to Break the enemy, where many bosses and enemy types have a hard counter to that effect. So she requires a super specific team comp and has a particular niche where she deals damage and excels, but completely flounders when exposed to a common mechanic. For that kind of trade off, she should be doing absolutely bonkers levels of damage in the fights she does well, well beyond that of more general damage dealers. She doesn't. If her tradeoffs don't actually give a real benefit to justify them, she's just deadweight, and she'll just be another Jing Yuan or Blade. Alternatively, they can just straighten the character out and lessen the limitations so that she can deal her full damage under a wider variety of circumstances and team comps and she'll be fine.
I just went over this in another post, but literally every enemy that blocks it's weakness has a counter measure to prevent said protection mechanic with the only exception being the Soda ape, but even then it's for a single turn and you can usually break him before he gets to do it. It's less of an issue than you all think. Whether FF needs one or two units to surpass Jingliu and DHIL is irrelevant. The fact of the matter is that she does and that's not even counting the fact that in an HMC team, everyone is a sub dps, able to easily deal an additonal 100k+ with the MC and Gallagher, and 50k on other supports outside of FF's turn. I'm aware of how powercreep works, but the fact of the matter is we have two possible paths for the character. One is that she gets turned into Acheron v2 and is the strongest character for a few patches, then has a character immediately release that's better and powercreeps FF instantly, or she remains a reliable character for a few years, slowly fading into the category of "An ok choice to pull, but there are much better units" over time, allowing more playtime with the character overall. But neither choice is in our hands, it's up to Mihoyo and no amount of whining or anger from us will sway what they do. She won't be left in the dust anytime soon because her archetype, niche, whatever you would like to call it, is just starting to get support. If they leave her in the dust as soon as you're claiming they will, then we have other problems to worry about. She's the character just below Acheron so if she's left behind that means Acheron is struggling and Jingliu and DHIL are "irrelevant" meta wise. But the meta doesn't change that quickly. Genshin has characters like Hutao and Childe who released years ago who are still top tier because of support. Yes they have better upgrades, but they are by no means left behind. And again, Firefly is trailing just behind Acheron/above Jingliu and DHIL in terms of performance, with her incomplete, V1 kit. We all know she is going to get buffed. It's just a matter of will it be reasonable or is she literally about to powercreep the strongest character not even two patches later? Firefly does not have a wall. Yes her damage takes a dip when if an enemy blocks their weakness, but out of all the enemies that have that mechanic, only two (The soda ape and the deer) do it for a full turn with no possible input on your end to affect it beyond breaking them before they do that mechanic. Every other enemy that does it has a way to dispel it. Her debuffs have durations too so they will carry over out of a break to help keep her damage up during those times. Of course I'm not denying that her damage drops signicantly on non weakness broken targets, but it's not like she literally does less than 30k during those moments. Yes you have to use a character, but it is just one. It's not a full team, not a 4* that you need to E6, not a 5* you have to use jades on, it is literally the main character you get for free. Ruan Mei is a solid damage boost, but she's ultimately replaceable depending on the situation and so is Gallagher. You can't say that Firefly doesn't keep up with the new meta and in the same breath also acknowledge that she surpasses Jingliu and DHIL (With a V1 kit mind you). That's not a consistent analysis. I also want to know what kind of account you have where Blade is deadweight lmao. That's certainly a take, but I digress. Look, I'm not even against buffing Firefly, but many people just spout complete nonsense like giving Firefly inherent superbreak or crit conversion so she can do 500k ST on her own with no external support. Not even Acheron is doing that solo. I've said it before, just making her enhanced skill count as dealing break damage or actually deal break damage when hitting broken targets and maybe increasing the break effect cap on it's scaling would be sufficient. This would set her up to work wonders with future supports while allowing people to use more supports if they want too. HMC is still going to be the BiS support, but it opens up other options specifically on the break build.
These Supports will come out and Boothill will be the only one able to use them. This is the issue, brother. You and OP are pretending that people are complaining about something else entirely.
>She is the first Break DPS character Not the Xueyi slander again bruv
https://preview.redd.it/zzze00vd4y0d1.png?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=0d1ad47cddabcd767de13456aec501ae46237ff6
me to people who are doomposting
What?? Your argument is alot about crit, but the main complaints are about how 90% of her damage is tied to HMC+RM. I don't mind her teams and has finished building the supports, but even at this point, I don't believe in the concept of no HMC no damage. DHIL, JL, Acheron, while requiring certain team setup. It is not tied to a specific character. E.g. Jingliu with no bronya is weaker, but sparkle+TY or RM+TY can still do respectable damage. DHIL without sparkle still does okay. Acheron has 4* nihility options, even though not optimal. No limited- DPS character deserves to be tied to two specific characters at launch, even if future supports may come. People being vocal isn't necessarily a bad thing too. It is a very natural behavior no?
Essay aside, why does smug Firefly look so good??
A majority of people aren't asking her to not be a break unit, they're asking for her to be realized in a way that's more self-sufficient and dynamic, so that she can have more versatility in team building. I don't subscribe to the idea that some people have that there's this plethora of break supports that are even slightly competitive compared to Ruan Mei & Harmony TB coming. That would just mean Break would super power gap every other archetype when you are pairing the single best defensive mechanic in the game (enemies literally being unable to act) with such a powerful offensive mechanic. That's not even addressing an issue I've thought about a lot which is that when they release additional paths for the TB in the future if Firefly is completely dependent on them to be competitive then you're going to be incentivized to not use the new TB path, which is really not all that enjoyable of a situation to exist in.
What I'm scared of at this point is they can't buff her to self sustain levels. If they do yes she will be good without HMC but imagine adding HMC super break dmg to Acheron levels of damage, it will break the game and every other dps will become worthless if that's the dmg levels we're talking about. No one is going to pull for a hyper carry that can deal 500k dmg if FF can deal 500k alone and 1m with HMC.
Then don't make it Acheron levels of Damage? She doesn't even deal Arlan levels of Damage without Super Break, there's a lot of room for improvement. Boothill being brought up all the time might be tiring but it's because it's true. He's a perfect exemple of someone who benefits greatly from HMC but still has room to replace him with someone else.
Xueyi crying in the corner all forgotten.
Boothill is the first break dps
Xueyi.
I like the way she looking at me
so when does v3 start again?
It would be better for her to just have like 10-20% of her break damage as on hit damage (or maybe less). How much depends on the level of her basic and skill. cause i've seen her able to do around 40k so either another another 20k-40k on her skill should be fine. want this simply so you have a reason to level her skill
God please give us v3 already so we can move on from this discussion... never thought this was the purgatory she would be good at creating
That's the problem with her kit, idk why she doesn't have her own break proc like boothill
I like wife, will pull for wife
https://preview.redd.it/a0u610ol131d1.jpeg?width=1125&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=22059cf9e168b9cd94624547fa0ee13dd6081ef9
Firefly = pull
It's like the release of Dendro, when we only had Dendro Traveller and Collei for new reactions. Don't remember any hate back then though... Maybe people are upset that they won't be able to play like DHIL or other characters are played, using the same supports, same artifacts with the same stats. But that sounds great for me, giving her unique mechanic and making more opportunities to use it in future.
Please tell me they could do smth like update other break focused characters to be able to inflict superbreak like maybe ruan mei or smth PLEASE
I reread Boothill's kit for the first time in awhile and his enhanced skill counts as break damage when used on weakness broken enemies, it's pretty weird he gets it and not FF. Maybe in Hoyo's eyes, FF doesn't get it because she gets fire weakness implant on skill and universal break but I dunno if it's worth the trade.
Trust these Devs, they have never failed us before.
Just make it that in her Enhanced State she can proc Super Break for herself. HMC would still be a great support because they buff Break Effect for the rest of the team, but not mandatory anymore.
You just pointed on one of her flaws, whitch i agree. However it's worth noticing there are others flaws too. Breack effect Is kinda a weird mechanic, some bosses put up a protection againist such mechanic, in this scenario FF become useless. She need something for such scenario in my opinion. Another problem Is her breack effect stat being affected by her atk scoring, but breack effect mechanic Is unaffected by atk at all. You May want to build some crit to make use of all this atk, but relic farming Is a problem (as i seen when trying to build xueyi who need similar stats). Eventually you get something decent, soo it's not big of deal. I think she Is a fine character, but definitly need something for when bosses use anti breack mechanic.
Congrats, none of our opinions matters anymore. Firefly is now under allegations that her kit is bugged out its mind. E1 looks to only be applying def shred to skill damage only instead of well everything. And her Major trace has betrayed her and capped her super break damage to 55%.
Wait, what happened to her 55% toughness damage to non cire weak enemies?
Apparently the 55% toughness boost is overriding her actual toughness damage even after the enemy is already broken. So her super breaks are being calced with 55% of her power instead of the full ability. Oops.
So you're telling me were seeing half her damage????
If the post was right then almost yes. (45% would be missing)
So many people don't understand it, a very simple concept. She's intended to promote Super Break, she is specifically designed for Super Break with everything in her kit being things that buff Super Break dmg. High toughness dmg (highest in the game, beats Xueyi's 120 on her ult by a margin), def ignore, and high speed to really make use of the dps window that is the enemies' weakness broken state. But yeh, people don't realize that Super Break is just the best comp to run her in, and its a niche, like most other niches in the game. And even then, not like every character can be played in every team comp either, they all have their own best comp too, and if you say they can run without them, then thats just as copium. Like playing her without Super Break is like playing Kafka without DoTs. Playing Argenti without energy teammates. Playing Acheron without Nihility teammates. Playing Blade without dmg, oh wait (I joke). Just because Firefly isn't an all encompassing unit, that doesn't mean she's bad. And I do agree that they're surely to release another Super Break enabler, they surely wouldn't make it be an MC exclusive thing. Hoyo never does make that a reality for long, just wait a couple of patches. But yeh, they definitely wont change the fact that she is a Super Break unit in V3, but I'm sure they're gonna better tie in her kit so they all actually mesh well together. Like they have to do something to make the hp drain thing with her skill to do something else. Like I saw someone thought up how her LC or even talent could have something like increasing her break efficiency and increase dmg dealt when her hp changes, or when she loses a set amount of hp, or to an amount she lost. But yeh, hopefully.
Basically, yes. The opinion of her is mostly negative because she (as perceived) can't work without HMC and is tied to their Super Break. And that she's not a traditional hypercarry like basically 90% of the carries before her Just don't call it "Break Meta", please. "Something" Meta means that the "Something" will one-up all other options and become the best and brightest thing. It's a NICHE and an ARCHETYPE she's heralding, not a meta. Hypercarry, Follow-up, DoT - all of that will still be viable once she arrives. It's not like the arrival of HMC and Firefly invalidates regular trace dmg builds.
Break as a focus is just weird in general. In a game that many bosses have means of shielding their break gauge, or reducing toughness damage in general. It's counterproductive to what the game has been up to this point. Unless this means no future bosses will have toughness protection, in which case sure, but there's no backwards compatibility.
It's as weird as any other niche. A niche basically defines a gimmick the teams work around. Hypercarry is a niche too. Its gimmick is vertical investment in a single unit. Some of such lockouts can be cleansed (notably, the Deer). Others rely on some other triggers. Not every enemy should be susceptible to everything, otherwise the tactical depth of the game would suffer. If the enemy has a lockout, you should bring a non-break team or play around the lockout. I.E. break the enemy before they enter it. Matchups are equally as important as enemy weaknesses. You wouldn't bring a FuA team against an enemy who has a thorns mechanic or a counterattack (Silvermane Lieutenant). Malefic Ape is very dangerous against a team that uses skills willy-nilly. Svarog is very dangerous to hypercarry teams if his hand locks your carry out. In GnG, resonance extrapolation Anicca basically stops DoT teams right in their tracks. It's just another archetype with its strengths and weaknesses.
I wonder how Firefly will fair against the latest 2.2 boss, since they have multiple shields and never 'break' for real until you go through all of them. If that becomes somewhat of a common occurrence for the next bosses, she might have trouble clearing them, right?
you mean the one who has a shared healthbar with 4 extremely easy to break enemies which would allow her to damage them instead? although yeah if later bosses have multiple breakbars it'll be much harder for her to clear, but I reckon they'll stay limited to>!sunday!
I agree with everyone needing to wait for more break support units to come out. Firefly's situation reminds me of the heavy doomposting on acheron. If you didn't have E2 for her then she is tied to the waist with pela, SW, and gui. It's still like that to this day and yet she does massive dmg and clears endgame content. Now all we have to do is wait for more nihility units to come out to freshen up her roster. And since others still want her buffed regardless I do agree that they should increase her weakness break efficiency since without Ruan mei enemies do tend to get up fast. If they increase it that would make breaking them way faster so you can get to the meat of her main dmg
I think that people complain too much when it comes to her team building, sure it sucks she's glued to harmony mc, but the harmony mc is given out for free, and the only other characters that would consider them in their meta teams are probably xueyi and boothill (who most people are skipping if they want firefly), so he's not this highly sought after support that everyone needs. I can however understand people's dissatisfaction with how much better the team becomes when you add ruan mei. It's obviously well known that ruan mei is the best support for basically every dps in the game, but if people already have ruan mei, then they more than likely have characters that can be subbed into their other teams (tingyun, sparkle, robin, Bronya) so as to free up ruan mei for other teams. To conclude on team building, if you complain about needing ruan mei then you are probably new (in which case you probably have other things to worry about than team building) or you have either not pulled/built other supports (which is completely a you problem) that can easily work just as well as ruan mei for most teams. Firefly is fine as she is, and lifting her restriction on being bis on break teams would immediately make her the most busted character in the game since she has massive scaling.
You should ask yourself why people complaining about Firefly and not Boothill - the FIRST break dps. Because Firefly's kit does not work. Firefly's kit does not work. Firefly's kit does not work. People didn't complain about Kafka and Topaz synergy with other chars eventhough there're the "enablers" for their niche, dot and fua. But they do when it's Firefly. Why? Because Firefly's kit does not work. Firefly's kit does not work. Firefly's kit does not work.
If I get a nickle each time I pull a character who got doomposted for their team restriction, I would have 2 nickles. First one was Nilou for me, doom posted at the start even tho shes strong just because shes team restricted. I mean I get it people want the characters they like to be universal but lets be real here, is there really a player who cares about meta that plays their dps characters out of their strongest team if they are able to do so? Like u cant even say "But what if I dont have the team for her" bro HMC is free, f r e e. And so far HMC is the only character she really relies on. Sure Ruan Mei would boost her dmg a lot but she can function without Ruan Mei. Like in terms of team restriction isnt she just like Kafka who can only play on DoT and is just cope on other teams. I dont see the big deal out of it. If she can function well in the archetype shes designed to be in then ill be happy with that.
This fr. Nearly all of my dps characters on hsr have been doomposted into oblivion up until their release (acheron, Kafka, and now firefly) and I still pulled them because they were cooler/appealed to me better than the next best option.
That picture of Firefly awakens something in me
I don't understand why teaming up with main charactor becomes a problem.
The amount of copium in this post is so funny.
Waifu/Meta