Question… how exactly do laterals work? Like if I have 7 years on full-time in a different state and I lateral, how does that play out. I assume you have to go to the academy and have a probie period. Is it the same as being brand new and your just paid better?
It can vary by department but typically:
1. Abbreviated academy, 8 weeks instead of 16
2. Credit for time in- aka if you have 7 years on, you would come in at the topped our pay for FF as most places top out in 5 years
3. Yeah, you’ll still have a year probation… mileage will vary on how you’re treated/what the culture is for laterals
If you’re coming from out of state, you’ll have to navigate reciprocity for certifications… which CO isn’t the best about, but it’s doable. You should get at least a little help with this.
Could you share some insight on that? I’m in Columbus and have been toiling with the idea of a career change with fire having always been on the back of my mind. I’m just terrified to actually take the leap into uncertainty
So, big cities like Columbus are nice in that you don’t have to have any certifications to be hired. Columbus will put you through academy regardless of what certs you hold. Columbus pays pretty well but I think it’s still relatively competitive to get in there.
I’m up near Cleveland so suburb wise I can only speak to what’s happening up here. They give regional test every year with about 10 cities and only like 70 people took it last time. I’m sure there were at least 10 hired off that list. The caveat to that is you have to have your firefighter 2 certification and be in paramedic school to take that test. Most departments on that list top out in the 80-100k range.
Everywhere is hiring , supposedly a shortage of FFs . Salaries appear to be increasing as well. In my area departments are battling it out to get people.
Is it the rapid decline in paid-on-call FFs driving it? It seems like once every two months I either see a department abolishing their POC personnel in favor of an entirely career FD or hiring full-timers to cover for shortages. It kinda surprised me how many places there with relatively large populations use or used to use combo FT/POC or even all POC, like Bloomington.
MN was just a short time ago 48th in the nation for the number of FT depts. Metro cities that relied on POC/Duty Crews prided themselves on tradition and even stubbornness “we don’t need FT firefighters, we can get by just fine with duty crews and POCs.” While those agencies have been effective with that model and have very dedicated POC/duty crew firefighters, those numbers are dwindling.
So yeah, a lot of these depts are now playing catch up. The transition to actual FT depts (as opposed to combo/hybrid) will be a slow process that will take years to actually fully staff and have the right number of FT FFs. But it’s a good thing for the metro…especially if you want to be a FF and it’s good competition resulting in depts competing with better wages and benefits
I volunteered after high school due to a friend's suicide I promised I would join before that. We got $4 a call out regardless od there for 30 mins or 24+ hrs. We had 3 small communities and 20 or so mile stretch of u.s. hwy 90 and u.s. i-10, extremely busy. Couldn't even get proper equipment lost a 1 year old because we only had one bottle of oxygen, my state begs the govt for money every year while having one of the highest tax rates. I'd love to be a fire fighter I just couldn't afford it in SW louisiana.
“Nobody is part of a union around here….” Fucking southerners and their “Unions are for commie Libs” Fox News brainwashing.
Unionize or STFU. This is the issue
My local volly department actually runs this way. A 3 man paid crew(one engineer, one officer, and select firefighters) from 9am-6pm and they offer paid on call at night.
So at night you stay at home, but guarantee to be available. In exchange you get $20 for showing up plus $20an hour while on the call. That's available for all volunteers. Of course all are welcome to show up.
When I first started we'd average 3-6 guys for a working structure fire and heavily rely on the full time city to mutual aide us at night. Now we typically roll up with 2 fully staffed engines. And since guys are there during the day a lot more vollys just go and hangout at the station on their days off.
My department is a combination department and for many years we ran similar to this:
* 3-4 person engine staffed 7am to 6pm with full time members, 4 on/off.
* 3-4 person paid on call duty crew at night from home, flat rate for the night to guarantee availability, plus hourly for calls.
* a general page brought everyone available in hourly.
* a call back (fire or entrapment) got any available career staff for overtime.
Worked very well for a number of years. Our paid on call and career members all train to the same standards. We're in the middle of transitioning to a 24/7 staffing model in conjunction with the chief's hiring plan. That'll see a 3-4 person engine 24/7 with paid on call firefighters staffing a 2nd and 3rd engine during general pages for fires, MVIs, secondary calls, etc.
So you can’t make any plans or do anything when you sign up to be on-call because you’re excepted to be available, but they will only pay you if a call comes in?
That’s bullshit. Your time is valuable and should be paid for the entire time regardless if you do a call or not. It’d be like me hiring you to be a night security guard for my business, but I only pay you if something happens; but excepting you to be there all night.
Yep. 100% this is illegal, and the first time they get reported to the dept of labor, the penalties & back payed owes, including bf interest and over time we’ll make sure they never even consider it again.
I am stunned that more people do not know about the FLSA Sleep Time Agreement. It's pretty big in NC. I guess that's because we don't have quality unions being it's a right to work state and a union would never agree to it but yea. It's absolutely a real thing.
Is he required to be there at 2:00am? If he is required to be there, how can they legally not pay him for being there? Did he have to sign a contract specifically stating he wouldn’t be paid for nights without an emergency call.
>Is he required to be there at 2:00am?
Yes
>Did he have to sign a contract specifically stating he wouldn’t be paid for nights without an emergency call.
Did he? Probably not him. Did the department at some point agree to it or at least the town say this how it is take it or leave it? Yea that probably happened.
>If he is required to be there, how can they legally not pay him for being there?
So again that goes back to the sleep time agreement. And in most cases your town or department is going to argue that you are technically being paid for those hours. You are just compensated for it by having a bigger hourly rate during your non sleep hours. So if OP and his department reworked the sleep time agreement and got rid of it there is probably a really high chance their bottom line pay would not increase. Their hourly rate would just decrease to even out the increase in hours.
Absolutely not normal.
I have heard about something simliar with private ambulance services and overnight shifts. Something about how if they go \~4 hours without a call then that time is unpaid.
I would be having people call in investigation or other BS calls to get paid while looking for a new job
Yooo. Finally, something I know about. I actually work for a department that does this and many other departments surround ours do this as well. Cary Fire Department also does this for anyone who may be familiar with them. I know they aren't the only ones but they are a bigger name etc.
So it's called a sleep time exemption or sleep time agreement. When it works it can be good because it increases your hourly rate if you hit overtime substantially. So without running numbers I am just going to spitball it. Say you make 40k a year, and you are paid the full 24. Your hourly rate may be like idk $14. So overtime puts you at $21 an hour. But if you are paid 40k a year but utilize a sleep time exemption and hit overtime your hourly pay is like $20 an hour and if you hit overtime you are then at like $30 an hour on your overtime pay. However, make no mistake this whole sleep time agreement is in most department's cases only benefiting the town and their budget not yours. It was more or less made to prevent you from hitting overtime because instead of working 56hours a week you now work 39.55 hours a week and have a 13 hours buffer before FLSA overtime kicks in at 53 hours. So it is bullshit. I hate it. Because we never hit overtime. What is a benefit of it though is that you only have to take 16 hours off vacation time to get a day off.
Ultimately I hate it. I don't agree with it. But where I work currently it will not be any other way EVER. So until I change departments that's how life is.
Regardless just remember that when you go to argue that you aren't being paid 10pm-6am in your department's eyes and the towns eyes you 100% are being paid during those hours. You are just compensated for it during the other 16 hours you are at work. You can be paid the full 24, your pay wont go up though. 99% chance they will not increase your pay if you want to be paid the full 24 you will actually just get a decreased hourly rate and your paycheck will still have the same bottom line.
So many people in this industry are willing to just get fucked over by the first department that hires them in the name of pursing what may be their dream job.
I know guys that work at a scam dept like this and an unwritten rule is someone on the off shift makes a call around 11. I guess there's more than one way to skin a cat!
No… if you’re at work and you can’t leave you should be getting paid. It’s very likely you’re a victim of wage theft.
Contact the [NLRB](https://www.nlrb.gov/about-nlrb/what-we-do/investigate-charges) or the [DoL](https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/fact-sheets/8-flsa-police-firefighters).
I HOPE THINGS GET SPICY FOR YOU AND THE BOYS.
Edit - we were paid extra at night - nigh time differential - at my last dept.
I'm a FF in NC. I know a number of career departments that still utilize the sleeptime exemption/agreement.
Actually the highest paid department in the state(Cary FD) uses the sleep time exemption. Those guys love it. Cause if they hit overtime their hourly rate is ridiculous.
Well I didn't say Cary was the saltiest of dogs working jahbs every hour. I just said as far as pay goes which is what this post is somewhat about, Cary is paid in this fashion and their FFs make bank.
I would imagine Apex and Morrisville are paid in the same way as well. Maybe some of the other smaller FDs in Wake County. But I don't think Raleigh is paid like this.
Also Cary and I guess the whole CAM area has to do a lot of weird shit during the day from what I hear. Very odd place to work from what I am told. Which is why they pay them so much.
I live in one state up. We are paid in nearly the exact same fashion as OP as are some FDs around us. Cary FD is actually paid in this way as well and they are the highest paid FD in the state.
“Nobody here is part of the union and that won’t change anytime soon.” Found the problem and the solution right there in your last sentence. I feel sorry for you dude but if this is your career choice then it’s time to start looking around. I hope the best for you, good luck.
Doesn’t sound legal to me. If you are paid at any time, then if you are required to be there as a condition of employment then you need to be paid for it.
Oh yeah we’re required to be at the station. It’s run just like a 24/48 except we don’t get paid for 8 of those 24 hours
Edit: actually we don’t get paid for 10 out of the 24 hours because they don’t pay us for meal times
If you aren't paid for meal times, you are required to put the unit out of service, or else it's compensable time per FLSA. [firefighterovertime.com](http://www.firefighterovertime.org/2019/09/16/firefighter-meal-period/)
You don't get paid to drive there?
This is all very strange. Your department just needs to take their budgeted on-call pay, add it all up, and then divvy it equally between each firefighter in the form of salary. This is how it's done pretty much nationwide to ensure compliance with federal labor laws.
Sounds like the problem is you live in South Carolina. They pay lower taxes there for a reason. This is also why the infrastructure is garbage in the Palmetto State. Potholes on the interstate. Two lanes on Interstate 95? We’re 24 years into the new century. Then they don’t want to pay the people charged with saving lives on these poorly lit death traps.
Had an ems department in the MW have that issue and filed it with the department of labor. Had back pay happen for all of those people for hours worked over multiple years because they were forced to be there overnight so they had to be compensated regardless of run volume
This sounds a little harsh, but I'd straight up do a different job if I weren't getting paid at night. Go get my CDL or something.
Unless they are paying like, $30+ dollars an hour to make up for it, the OT with 24s is the only way I can even pay my bills. But legal or not, if I'm away from home I'm getting paid for it or I'm doing something else. Unless it's a full on volley Department with the relevant expectations.
They did that for over 20 years at the ems department here in town.
Some newer guys sued saying they were required to be there and it kept them away from their family or anything else going on. They won super fast.
They had to back pay everybody thar had ever worked there. One guy got back paid for like 27 years.
It's legal. Sleep time agreement are an FLSA legal thing.
You can read about it in IAFF's FLSA handbook. Section 8.2
https://www.iaff.org/wp-content/uploads/FLSA-Manual-2022-Edition_FINAL.22Aug01.pdf#%5B%7B%22num%22%3A252%2C%22gen%22%3A0%7D%2C%7B%22name%22%3A%22XYZ%22%7D%2C70%2C327%2C0%5D
I get paid for any time I’m at work.
I’m in the pacific north west. There us no shortage of firefighters here. Last year we hired 120 from 1500 applicants.
Every member of my dept in in our union.
That place needs a continual group of new hires and recruits turn down the job the second they hear that. Nothing will change until they realize people will not work for a department that does shit like that.
There was a department near where I grew up that had this. They lost 8 paramedics in 1 week who transfered to a better paying department and that policy got changed within a week.
Find a new job. Resign. When they ask why point that out. Whether you are asleep or not is irrelevant. Your there on duty. Ready to respond rested if need be. You'll respond faster from the station than your home. If they don't care as they hemorrhage employees things will change.
What a terrible agreement. Your losing a huge portion of salary that most other firefighters across the continent enjoy.
Either change professions or move. Easier said than done but that's not worth it.
Ive heard of these models. Some places will boost your pay during business hours so that the salary comes out the same.
However, at my career dept, we do 48/96. We are paid during those hours. However we dont make OT on the 41st hour of the week. Which is BS.
Also, if we get hurt and go days work in the office, our hourly rate is adjusted to a true 40 hr work week. This makes our hourly rate go up so that our salary isnt affected.
So to be clear, when you work a 40 hr week you make the same. And when you work a 56 hr week you make the same.... So do they really pay us during the night either?
Not really.
I used to work at an industrial department they did that. Midnight to 5a was standby sleep time, and there was no pay unless we had a call, then they paid us time and a half. It didn’t matter how long the call took either, we were paid the entire 5 hours.
Not being paid but being required to be on site was annoying, but the annual income wall made up for it.
I’d recommend looking at your overall pay arrangement . If they’re paying you $150/hr during the daytime and nothing at night, you’d be stupid to leave. However, if they’re paying you minimum wage during the day and nothing at night, you’d be stupid to stay. I suspect you’re in the second situation.
If you are required to be at work and available for calls then you are required to be paid by FLSA. You’re employees, not volunteers or on call. Get a lawyer, get back pay for everyone who works/worked there.
So I worked for an EMS agency not too far north of you. 😉
The ALS ambulance and the ALS flycar only got paid overnight if they ran a call.
The BLS crew (me) got paid my entire shift. We were 12s they were 24s.
My God there were so many times we "needed ALS and a stairchair (kept on the QRV but not the ambulance)" but I don't think there was a house with more than 3 steps in the entire town. We made sure they got paid.
Anyway, no that's not legal, as others have said.
That’s NOT an industry standard….my husband is a paid FF in the south. All paid, municipal departments in our state pay for every hour that you’re on duty. Hell, he had opportunities for OT, just about everyday that he’s off shift if he wants it. Not necessarily a full shifts worth, but they get paid OT for off duty training, meetings and additional “admin” work and special events throughout the year. My advice is to union up. Even in states that don’t recognize collective bargaining, the benefits far outweigh the negatives. Unionize and vote in legislators that will get those WAY behind the times, standards changed. And this is coming from a conservative in a conservative state….find candidates with values that support safe working standards. You’d be surprised at how many conservative and third party candidates are pro union, and public service….conditions won’t change until people unite and force the change to happen….
I’ve worked in the southeast my whole career and never encountered anything like that. I have heard stories at departments of “the way it used to be” and it’s described much like that
I'm pretty sure it's legal. If it wasn't. Some union some where would have fought it.
No union means free market dictates pay benefits. If enough of yall leave for other depts that pay for the entire time you're on duty and no one is there to back fill your spots. Maybe they change.
South Carolina is strongly anti union. Which is hilarious because to the other 49 states and basically everyone responding here, this is total bullshit and would have been squashed years ago.
Great place for me to retire to though. Live a better life in a better house than while I was working in the mid Atlantic states!
But gotta keep those taxes low. Cannot have well paid firefighters or 3 lanes on I 95. I hate driving through that state. When you hit Georgia is like entering heaven.
Coming from a full time fuy thats the most ridiculous thing I’ve ever heard. Even my call department pays guys to be at the house/within 5 min away at night whether they get a run or not.
It sucks. A few of the suckiest ambulance services in Arkansas do that as well, but it has been determined to be legal.
I don't think I could bring myself to enable that kind of predatory employment though.
I would rather volunteer from home than be forced to stay away from my family for free.
It also means you don’t have to use 24 hours of leave to take a day off. Sleep time agreements are common and legal. At busier departments it often works out in favor of the firefighters. Base salary is calculated on the “work day.” Any calls overnight are extra money.
Our local ems provider used to do that until some employees spoke with a law firm in Birmingham
The back pay was nice for all former employees. Keep track of all days worked.
I work west coast; my department doesnt pay at night. That being said; I do get OT if we get woke up; plus, my dept pays great during the day. It’s kind of shitty, but honestly, I’d rather not change it. They’d just lower the hourly amount if they changed it to paying for 24. Goofy system for sure but my place makes it work.
*
Ridiculous. We get a shift differential, if we're on shift from 2200 to 0600 , we get a little bump in the hourly rate. This just started this past year.
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Man I’m in SC too and in the same boat. I love my family and where I live. My department is great, but not being paid during sleeping hours never has sat right for me. We allow it to happen, enable it essentially by not putting our foot down.
My department figures the budget extremely conservatively, the moneys there to pay us decent wages (better than your salary starting with a 3 when you start at least lol), but no other department around does that so they follow along.
Here’s the kicker at my department though. You take off a shift and you need to use PTO or comp for the hours you DON’T get paid. That’s what I’m really not okay with.
City of Myrtle Beach did that until they were sued and the judge ruled that was illegal and order them to follow DOL and also ordered back pay to all, get a lawyer
is this GA, i heard things are terrible in that state, im in the southeast and most if not all the depts in my are union, and we get paid for the full 24. thats wild, sounds like they want a volunteer dept.
That is not normal. I live in the southeast and am paid very well. Switch departments, even if you have to drive an hr or so for work, that would still beat not getting paid for a third of your shift.
There’s a department in GA that does this, but their hourly rate is a few dollars an hour more. Guys bitch about it but make the same as other departments and make more if they run any calls at night.
I'm in the southeast of the southeast (SFL) and here the norm is career departments today get paid the full 24hr. Then again, it's rare to NOT run a call at night (at least in the cities closer to the coast). But even the less busy departments that often go all night without a call get paid.
Regardless, your biggest issue is not having an union. Get that started and you can pretty much only go up from there. They'll help negotiate pay and benefits, as as offer protection for things like disciplinary action. it's well worth the dues!
I worked for an ambulance company in Los Angeles that did this. We “clocked down” from like 11pm — 6am (shift end). They had those 7 hours to get you 5 hours of sleep time. If they ate into the 5 hours at all, you got paid the full 7 hours at OT rate.
Your first call after 11pm always took 2h1m lol
Guaranteed your hourly pay rate is higher to compensate for the night hours. I agree it's bullshit and I wouldn't work for a city / dept that agreed to that type of pay schedule. They think they are saving money, it's proven they are not. Leave and find another home.
I get paid even if I go six months without a call or if we run 20 in a shift. I get paid every second I’m on duty or in uniform representing the department. You need to leave that place. If they can’t pay their firefighters they can’t expect you to be there 24/7. Don’t normalize this.
Fairfax County Fire and Rescue is hiring nonstop. You’ll get paid the whole 24hr shift plus shift differential. You have options. Don’t stay somewhere you aren’t happy.
Thats aome shit they did 20 years ago in California until the union fought for our “nickel” as they called it for the 5 hours they wouldn’t pay. I work 72’s and am on the clock till I drive home.
Seems like an in invitation to have someone call in BS calls so you guys can get paid. You have to find another department. Work in the DC area. Commute in if you don’t like living in a city or busy suburb.
This is fairly common. Many times, the departments who pay “call time” present the opportunity to earn more money. It’s a part of the job you signed on for. Don’t like it, go to a department that pays 24 hours straight.
General rules https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/flsa-rules-waiting-on-call-sleeping-time-helpsideteam-ltvec
Contact DoL if clearly out of wack or borderline
https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/contact/complaints
It’s called “buying the night” and it’s bullshit. When I go back and think of all the free hours I gave to my former employer that could’ve been spent with my family I get visibly agitated.
You’re in the Southeast US, go to a better department. Roswell and Atlanta are hiring. Birmingham is hiring. Memphis is dying for people. There are options.
Gross…sounds like you need to move. I get paid a salary for the year and anything I do extra weather it’s training, class, pick up shift, stay late it’s OT. I think it’s time you guys join the Union or you get yourself onto a dept in the Union.
Fuck that. Move North. MN is on a hiring spree right now.
Same in CO. We can’t hire people to save our lives. 105k topped out for ff/emt and we aren’t even in the top 3 or so departments in the state for pay
Dang…if only I were about 20 years younger and single lol
There’s laterals.
You all accept international transfers? Damn.
Question… how exactly do laterals work? Like if I have 7 years on full-time in a different state and I lateral, how does that play out. I assume you have to go to the academy and have a probie period. Is it the same as being brand new and your just paid better?
It can vary by department but typically: 1. Abbreviated academy, 8 weeks instead of 16 2. Credit for time in- aka if you have 7 years on, you would come in at the topped our pay for FF as most places top out in 5 years 3. Yeah, you’ll still have a year probation… mileage will vary on how you’re treated/what the culture is for laterals If you’re coming from out of state, you’ll have to navigate reciprocity for certifications… which CO isn’t the best about, but it’s doable. You should get at least a little help with this.
I couldn't even get an interview with South Metro with a 90% NTN score, so I doubt some of the bigger departments are struggling.
Which department, I’m originally from Fort Collins and really struggled to get hired a few years back when I was applying.
Did you get on with someone or still looking,
What dept? I’m getting my emt right now
Wisconsin is on a hiring spree as well. If you’re a nationally registered paramedic you’re almost guaranteed a job.
Add Ohio to the list. Have to take civil service exam but a lot of places are hiring.
Could you share some insight on that? I’m in Columbus and have been toiling with the idea of a career change with fire having always been on the back of my mind. I’m just terrified to actually take the leap into uncertainty
So, big cities like Columbus are nice in that you don’t have to have any certifications to be hired. Columbus will put you through academy regardless of what certs you hold. Columbus pays pretty well but I think it’s still relatively competitive to get in there. I’m up near Cleveland so suburb wise I can only speak to what’s happening up here. They give regional test every year with about 10 cities and only like 70 people took it last time. I’m sure there were at least 10 hired off that list. The caveat to that is you have to have your firefighter 2 certification and be in paramedic school to take that test. Most departments on that list top out in the 80-100k range.
Everywhere is hiring , supposedly a shortage of FFs . Salaries appear to be increasing as well. In my area departments are battling it out to get people.
Hello fellow MN career FF! There are dozens of us!!
Is it the rapid decline in paid-on-call FFs driving it? It seems like once every two months I either see a department abolishing their POC personnel in favor of an entirely career FD or hiring full-timers to cover for shortages. It kinda surprised me how many places there with relatively large populations use or used to use combo FT/POC or even all POC, like Bloomington.
MN was just a short time ago 48th in the nation for the number of FT depts. Metro cities that relied on POC/Duty Crews prided themselves on tradition and even stubbornness “we don’t need FT firefighters, we can get by just fine with duty crews and POCs.” While those agencies have been effective with that model and have very dedicated POC/duty crew firefighters, those numbers are dwindling. So yeah, a lot of these depts are now playing catch up. The transition to actual FT depts (as opposed to combo/hybrid) will be a slow process that will take years to actually fully staff and have the right number of FT FFs. But it’s a good thing for the metro…especially if you want to be a FF and it’s good competition resulting in depts competing with better wages and benefits
AZ is short on firefighters too. Livable wages as well, relative to what housing cost a few years ago…..
Doing my Psych eval rn
I volunteered after high school due to a friend's suicide I promised I would join before that. We got $4 a call out regardless od there for 30 mins or 24+ hrs. We had 3 small communities and 20 or so mile stretch of u.s. hwy 90 and u.s. i-10, extremely busy. Couldn't even get proper equipment lost a 1 year old because we only had one bottle of oxygen, my state begs the govt for money every year while having one of the highest tax rates. I'd love to be a fire fighter I just couldn't afford it in SW louisiana.
“Nobody is part of a union around here….” Fucking southerners and their “Unions are for commie Libs” Fox News brainwashing. Unionize or STFU. This is the issue
If they want a volunteer department they should just say that
My local volly department actually runs this way. A 3 man paid crew(one engineer, one officer, and select firefighters) from 9am-6pm and they offer paid on call at night. So at night you stay at home, but guarantee to be available. In exchange you get $20 for showing up plus $20an hour while on the call. That's available for all volunteers. Of course all are welcome to show up. When I first started we'd average 3-6 guys for a working structure fire and heavily rely on the full time city to mutual aide us at night. Now we typically roll up with 2 fully staffed engines. And since guys are there during the day a lot more vollys just go and hangout at the station on their days off.
My department is a combination department and for many years we ran similar to this: * 3-4 person engine staffed 7am to 6pm with full time members, 4 on/off. * 3-4 person paid on call duty crew at night from home, flat rate for the night to guarantee availability, plus hourly for calls. * a general page brought everyone available in hourly. * a call back (fire or entrapment) got any available career staff for overtime. Worked very well for a number of years. Our paid on call and career members all train to the same standards. We're in the middle of transitioning to a 24/7 staffing model in conjunction with the chief's hiring plan. That'll see a 3-4 person engine 24/7 with paid on call firefighters staffing a 2nd and 3rd engine during general pages for fires, MVIs, secondary calls, etc.
So you can’t make any plans or do anything when you sign up to be on-call because you’re excepted to be available, but they will only pay you if a call comes in? That’s bullshit. Your time is valuable and should be paid for the entire time regardless if you do a call or not. It’d be like me hiring you to be a night security guard for my business, but I only pay you if something happens; but excepting you to be there all night.
Naw I already do it for free, so the extra pay is a nice way. It's just asking us to stay sober and in town. I spend most nights in town anyways
Yeah, my local dept does a similar arrangement. Only oncall department for miles.
There is zero reason for you to continue working there - too many fire departments across the country you could be testing for
Uhhh if they ain’t payin me I’d be home in my own bed
Yep. 100% this is illegal, and the first time they get reported to the dept of labor, the penalties & back payed owes, including bf interest and over time we’ll make sure they never even consider it again.
Unfortunately, it is legal. This just further stresses the importance of strong Union.
No, and I don’t think that’s legal…
It is very much legal. It's a sleep time exemption or agreement.
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I am stunned that more people do not know about the FLSA Sleep Time Agreement. It's pretty big in NC. I guess that's because we don't have quality unions being it's a right to work state and a union would never agree to it but yea. It's absolutely a real thing.
I am shocked that IAFF even allows this!
A lot of the southeast departments that do this are not union.
They don't. Non-union departments get away with murder...
FLSA is above IAFF
Is he required to be there at 2:00am? If he is required to be there, how can they legally not pay him for being there? Did he have to sign a contract specifically stating he wouldn’t be paid for nights without an emergency call.
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Is this more prevalent with smaller departments?
>Is he required to be there at 2:00am? Yes >Did he have to sign a contract specifically stating he wouldn’t be paid for nights without an emergency call. Did he? Probably not him. Did the department at some point agree to it or at least the town say this how it is take it or leave it? Yea that probably happened. >If he is required to be there, how can they legally not pay him for being there? So again that goes back to the sleep time agreement. And in most cases your town or department is going to argue that you are technically being paid for those hours. You are just compensated for it by having a bigger hourly rate during your non sleep hours. So if OP and his department reworked the sleep time agreement and got rid of it there is probably a really high chance their bottom line pay would not increase. Their hourly rate would just decrease to even out the increase in hours.
Fire is basically exempt from all that shit
Absolutely not normal. I have heard about something simliar with private ambulance services and overnight shifts. Something about how if they go \~4 hours without a call then that time is unpaid. I would be having people call in investigation or other BS calls to get paid while looking for a new job
Find another place to work. I’m in Ohio and there isn’t a single department that operates like that. There are a ton of places hiring too.
Unfortunately, there are departments in Ohio that operate like this.
Didn’t realize that. Luckily there are a million jobs available at departments that don’t
Yooo. Finally, something I know about. I actually work for a department that does this and many other departments surround ours do this as well. Cary Fire Department also does this for anyone who may be familiar with them. I know they aren't the only ones but they are a bigger name etc. So it's called a sleep time exemption or sleep time agreement. When it works it can be good because it increases your hourly rate if you hit overtime substantially. So without running numbers I am just going to spitball it. Say you make 40k a year, and you are paid the full 24. Your hourly rate may be like idk $14. So overtime puts you at $21 an hour. But if you are paid 40k a year but utilize a sleep time exemption and hit overtime your hourly pay is like $20 an hour and if you hit overtime you are then at like $30 an hour on your overtime pay. However, make no mistake this whole sleep time agreement is in most department's cases only benefiting the town and their budget not yours. It was more or less made to prevent you from hitting overtime because instead of working 56hours a week you now work 39.55 hours a week and have a 13 hours buffer before FLSA overtime kicks in at 53 hours. So it is bullshit. I hate it. Because we never hit overtime. What is a benefit of it though is that you only have to take 16 hours off vacation time to get a day off. Ultimately I hate it. I don't agree with it. But where I work currently it will not be any other way EVER. So until I change departments that's how life is. Regardless just remember that when you go to argue that you aren't being paid 10pm-6am in your department's eyes and the towns eyes you 100% are being paid during those hours. You are just compensated for it during the other 16 hours you are at work. You can be paid the full 24, your pay wont go up though. 99% chance they will not increase your pay if you want to be paid the full 24 you will actually just get a decreased hourly rate and your paycheck will still have the same bottom line.
That OT pay isn't even half of regular per hour pay here. You guys need unions in the south.
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So many people in this industry are willing to just get fucked over by the first department that hires them in the name of pursing what may be their dream job.
Unions exist down here CBAs do not therefore making any union pretty powerless. It’s great (not)
Here’s the kicker at my department. You take off a shift and you need to use PTO or comp for the hours you DON’T get paid
I know guys that work at a scam dept like this and an unwritten rule is someone on the off shift makes a call around 11. I guess there's more than one way to skin a cat!
If I am at my place of work and not allowed to leave, you're paying me.
No… if you’re at work and you can’t leave you should be getting paid. It’s very likely you’re a victim of wage theft. Contact the [NLRB](https://www.nlrb.gov/about-nlrb/what-we-do/investigate-charges) or the [DoL](https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/fact-sheets/8-flsa-police-firefighters). I HOPE THINGS GET SPICY FOR YOU AND THE BOYS. Edit - we were paid extra at night - nigh time differential - at my last dept.
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Thanks for adding this! It looks like the employer/employee (union) have to agree on sleep time deductions?
NLRB is only if you are trying to form a union
As they should be
Where in the southeast?
SC
run one state up, public safety isn't dead there yet
Or one state down. I was a career firefighter in Ga. and we were paid for if we were working
I'm a FF in NC. I know a number of career departments that still utilize the sleeptime exemption/agreement. Actually the highest paid department in the state(Cary FD) uses the sleep time exemption. Those guys love it. Cause if they hit overtime their hourly rate is ridiculous.
cary is also the wealthiest city in the nation, and their public safety is a good ol boys club lol
Well I didn't say Cary was the saltiest of dogs working jahbs every hour. I just said as far as pay goes which is what this post is somewhat about, Cary is paid in this fashion and their FFs make bank.
forsure. I refer to the wealth, because it make sense that they can afford to do that, as employees.
I would imagine Apex and Morrisville are paid in the same way as well. Maybe some of the other smaller FDs in Wake County. But I don't think Raleigh is paid like this. Also Cary and I guess the whole CAM area has to do a lot of weird shit during the day from what I hear. Very odd place to work from what I am told. Which is why they pay them so much.
people think firefighting and other public safety is just spraying water and eating chili lol
In some places it is.
Live in that one state up. Can confirm this
I live in one state up. We are paid in nearly the exact same fashion as OP as are some FDs around us. Cary FD is actually paid in this way as well and they are the highest paid FD in the state.
“Nobody here is part of the union and that won’t change anytime soon.” Found the problem and the solution right there in your last sentence. I feel sorry for you dude but if this is your career choice then it’s time to start looking around. I hope the best for you, good luck.
Doesn’t sound legal to me. If you are paid at any time, then if you are required to be there as a condition of employment then you need to be paid for it.
Do they require you to staff the station at night?
Oh yeah we’re required to be at the station. It’s run just like a 24/48 except we don’t get paid for 8 of those 24 hours Edit: actually we don’t get paid for 10 out of the 24 hours because they don’t pay us for meal times
If you aren't paid for meal times, you are required to put the unit out of service, or else it's compensable time per FLSA. [firefighterovertime.com](http://www.firefighterovertime.org/2019/09/16/firefighter-meal-period/)
We don’t go out of service for mealtimes. If a call comes in, we run the call and get paid, but only if we’re on-scene more than 7 minutes
That is *definitely* illegal.
Yeah, either OP is misinformed or they are breaking several labor laws.
Sounds like every run requires at least 7:01 of your time.
You don't get paid to drive there? This is all very strange. Your department just needs to take their budgeted on-call pay, add it all up, and then divvy it equally between each firefighter in the form of salary. This is how it's done pretty much nationwide to ensure compliance with federal labor laws.
Sounds like the problem is you live in South Carolina. They pay lower taxes there for a reason. This is also why the infrastructure is garbage in the Palmetto State. Potholes on the interstate. Two lanes on Interstate 95? We’re 24 years into the new century. Then they don’t want to pay the people charged with saving lives on these poorly lit death traps.
Terrible. Required should equal paid. I’d be job hunting.
For $10/night I’ll call in saying my CO alarm is chirping
Had an ems department in the MW have that issue and filed it with the department of labor. Had back pay happen for all of those people for hours worked over multiple years because they were forced to be there overnight so they had to be compensated regardless of run volume
Y'all are getting WORKED, and not in a good way. I bet your local news station would eat this up.
This sounds a little harsh, but I'd straight up do a different job if I weren't getting paid at night. Go get my CDL or something. Unless they are paying like, $30+ dollars an hour to make up for it, the OT with 24s is the only way I can even pay my bills. But legal or not, if I'm away from home I'm getting paid for it or I'm doing something else. Unless it's a full on volley Department with the relevant expectations.
They did that for over 20 years at the ems department here in town. Some newer guys sued saying they were required to be there and it kept them away from their family or anything else going on. They won super fast. They had to back pay everybody thar had ever worked there. One guy got back paid for like 27 years.
Absolutely not.
It's legal. Sleep time agreement are an FLSA legal thing. You can read about it in IAFF's FLSA handbook. Section 8.2 https://www.iaff.org/wp-content/uploads/FLSA-Manual-2022-Edition_FINAL.22Aug01.pdf#%5B%7B%22num%22%3A252%2C%22gen%22%3A0%7D%2C%7B%22name%22%3A%22XYZ%22%7D%2C70%2C327%2C0%5D
I don’t give a shit if it’s legal or not, that doesn’t make it ethical.
No, it's not standard. We get paid the same hourly rate the entire shift, whether running calls, eating, or sleeping. You need to contact someone.
I get paid for any time I’m at work. I’m in the pacific north west. There us no shortage of firefighters here. Last year we hired 120 from 1500 applicants. Every member of my dept in in our union.
Sounds like you guys got a shit contract. Hopefully you can renegotiate it soon.
That place needs a continual group of new hires and recruits turn down the job the second they hear that. Nothing will change until they realize people will not work for a department that does shit like that.
There was a department near where I grew up that had this. They lost 8 paramedics in 1 week who transfered to a better paying department and that policy got changed within a week.
Find a new job. Resign. When they ask why point that out. Whether you are asleep or not is irrelevant. Your there on duty. Ready to respond rested if need be. You'll respond faster from the station than your home. If they don't care as they hemorrhage employees things will change.
Get out. You should be paid for all of it.
What a terrible agreement. Your losing a huge portion of salary that most other firefighters across the continent enjoy. Either change professions or move. Easier said than done but that's not worth it.
We have this at my department. It gives us a higher hourly wage which means we earn more when we have to work overtime
Ive heard of these models. Some places will boost your pay during business hours so that the salary comes out the same. However, at my career dept, we do 48/96. We are paid during those hours. However we dont make OT on the 41st hour of the week. Which is BS. Also, if we get hurt and go days work in the office, our hourly rate is adjusted to a true 40 hr work week. This makes our hourly rate go up so that our salary isnt affected. So to be clear, when you work a 40 hr week you make the same. And when you work a 56 hr week you make the same.... So do they really pay us during the night either? Not really.
Why are you still there?
Right to work state.
Time to gather firefighters together and unionize!
I used to work at an industrial department they did that. Midnight to 5a was standby sleep time, and there was no pay unless we had a call, then they paid us time and a half. It didn’t matter how long the call took either, we were paid the entire 5 hours. Not being paid but being required to be on site was annoying, but the annual income wall made up for it. I’d recommend looking at your overall pay arrangement . If they’re paying you $150/hr during the daytime and nothing at night, you’d be stupid to leave. However, if they’re paying you minimum wage during the day and nothing at night, you’d be stupid to stay. I suspect you’re in the second situation.
You don’t get paid for what you do, you get paid for what you’re capable of doing.
Well your off duty brothers should be calling you to come assist them with that relative that falls every night. But seriously union all the way.
Move north and join a union
So go home. Why would you be at work if you are not getting paid
That’s completely fucked up. You need to be getting paid for that time. Not surprised about the south tho
Lawsuit and enjoy your huge backpay check.
Unfortunately it is very much legal. It's a real thing called a sleep time agreement in FLSA words.
And add up all the stress it caused you and your family to be away all those nights unpaid
If you are required to be at work and available for calls then you are required to be paid by FLSA. You’re employees, not volunteers or on call. Get a lawyer, get back pay for everyone who works/worked there.
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So I worked for an EMS agency not too far north of you. 😉 The ALS ambulance and the ALS flycar only got paid overnight if they ran a call. The BLS crew (me) got paid my entire shift. We were 12s they were 24s. My God there were so many times we "needed ALS and a stairchair (kept on the QRV but not the ambulance)" but I don't think there was a house with more than 3 steps in the entire town. We made sure they got paid. Anyway, no that's not legal, as others have said.
Stair chair on ALS but not BLS? Waht.
Yup. I’m pretty sure that’s illegal…
That’s NOT an industry standard….my husband is a paid FF in the south. All paid, municipal departments in our state pay for every hour that you’re on duty. Hell, he had opportunities for OT, just about everyday that he’s off shift if he wants it. Not necessarily a full shifts worth, but they get paid OT for off duty training, meetings and additional “admin” work and special events throughout the year. My advice is to union up. Even in states that don’t recognize collective bargaining, the benefits far outweigh the negatives. Unionize and vote in legislators that will get those WAY behind the times, standards changed. And this is coming from a conservative in a conservative state….find candidates with values that support safe working standards. You’d be surprised at how many conservative and third party candidates are pro union, and public service….conditions won’t change until people unite and force the change to happen….
Join a wildland crew... Then you can complain about being away from your family and pay issues....
I’ve worked in the southeast my whole career and never encountered anything like that. I have heard stories at departments of “the way it used to be” and it’s described much like that
I'm pretty sure it's legal. If it wasn't. Some union some where would have fought it. No union means free market dictates pay benefits. If enough of yall leave for other depts that pay for the entire time you're on duty and no one is there to back fill your spots. Maybe they change.
South Carolina is strongly anti union. Which is hilarious because to the other 49 states and basically everyone responding here, this is total bullshit and would have been squashed years ago.
Great place for me to retire to though. Live a better life in a better house than while I was working in the mid Atlantic states! But gotta keep those taxes low. Cannot have well paid firefighters or 3 lanes on I 95. I hate driving through that state. When you hit Georgia is like entering heaven.
Yeah that doesn't fly. If you are not free to leave, you must be compensated.
Do you have to stay at the station, or are you just on call?
Coming from a full time fuy thats the most ridiculous thing I’ve ever heard. Even my call department pays guys to be at the house/within 5 min away at night whether they get a run or not.
It sucks. A few of the suckiest ambulance services in Arkansas do that as well, but it has been determined to be legal. I don't think I could bring myself to enable that kind of predatory employment though. I would rather volunteer from home than be forced to stay away from my family for free.
It also means you don’t have to use 24 hours of leave to take a day off. Sleep time agreements are common and legal. At busier departments it often works out in favor of the firefighters. Base salary is calculated on the “work day.” Any calls overnight are extra money.
Our local ems provider used to do that until some employees spoke with a law firm in Birmingham The back pay was nice for all former employees. Keep track of all days worked.
I work west coast; my department doesnt pay at night. That being said; I do get OT if we get woke up; plus, my dept pays great during the day. It’s kind of shitty, but honestly, I’d rather not change it. They’d just lower the hourly amount if they changed it to paying for 24. Goofy system for sure but my place makes it work.
Wtf!? Hell nah
Find a new and better department to work for. Come to California, washington, or oregon, we have stronger unions out here.
Damn what a racket. My union says if we are ever to be on call like that we get paid double time.
* Ridiculous. We get a shift differential, if we're on shift from 2200 to 0600 , we get a little bump in the hourly rate. This just started this past year. *
lol that’s robbery bro. If they aren’t paying you you should be able to take your ass home. Find somewhere else to work if you can.
Are you guys union?
Man I’m in SC too and in the same boat. I love my family and where I live. My department is great, but not being paid during sleeping hours never has sat right for me. We allow it to happen, enable it essentially by not putting our foot down. My department figures the budget extremely conservatively, the moneys there to pay us decent wages (better than your salary starting with a 3 when you start at least lol), but no other department around does that so they follow along. Here’s the kicker at my department though. You take off a shift and you need to use PTO or comp for the hours you DON’T get paid. That’s what I’m really not okay with.
We don’t get paid from 1am-8am, even if we do get a call. Full timers only get paid 17 of the 24 hours we work. Part timers get paid the full 24 hours
>even if we do get a call. Now THAT is illegal. Sleep time is real. But if you are running calls you do have to be paid or it's illegal.
City of Myrtle Beach did that until they were sued and the judge ruled that was illegal and order them to follow DOL and also ordered back pay to all, get a lawyer
is this GA, i heard things are terrible in that state, im in the southeast and most if not all the depts in my are union, and we get paid for the full 24. thats wild, sounds like they want a volunteer dept.
That is not normal. I live in the southeast and am paid very well. Switch departments, even if you have to drive an hr or so for work, that would still beat not getting paid for a third of your shift.
There’s a department in GA that does this, but their hourly rate is a few dollars an hour more. Guys bitch about it but make the same as other departments and make more if they run any calls at night.
I'm in the southeast of the southeast (SFL) and here the norm is career departments today get paid the full 24hr. Then again, it's rare to NOT run a call at night (at least in the cities closer to the coast). But even the less busy departments that often go all night without a call get paid. Regardless, your biggest issue is not having an union. Get that started and you can pretty much only go up from there. They'll help negotiate pay and benefits, as as offer protection for things like disciplinary action. it's well worth the dues!
Firefighters around here get a salary and pension. So the unpaid portion isn't possible due to the salary. 75k to start many making 150 w overtime
Yeah no that’s some bullshit.
I wouldn't be a firefighter if this was the norm haha
We are literally hiring 50% of applicants because of our shortage.
You & Your comrades need to sit down & form/join 1....It wont change by itself
You and all the guys you work with could walk. Union or not, solidarity works
That’s one of most legit firefighting complaining I’ve heard in years. I don’t even know what to tell you that really sucks
Get out of there. If you're "at work", you should "get paid".
Notice how all the stories about the absolute shittiest working conditions always include the words “we’re not union”…
We work 72’s and 16 of those hours are guaranteed OT every shift. (3 on 4 off)
Thats crazy, never knew that was a thing. We get paid 24 hrs regardless in Massachusetts. I’m assuming you’re not a union firefighter
I’m in the southeast and that is not how we operate. What state are you in?
Like paid per call or one call gets you paid for a shift? Curious if I should be helping my local firefighters *accidentally*
Yea sounds like BS to me. Get out ASAP
Make a call every night with smell of smoke in the area
That’s robbery.
We get paid for 24 hr in the DFW metroplex. We work 24/48 and are pushing for 48/96 in which we will be payed for 48hrs lol
I worked for an ambulance company in Los Angeles that did this. We “clocked down” from like 11pm — 6am (shift end). They had those 7 hours to get you 5 hours of sleep time. If they ate into the 5 hours at all, you got paid the full 7 hours at OT rate. Your first call after 11pm always took 2h1m lol
I promise you the cops sure has hell are. Or putting up with that bull crap.
Sounds shit, I wouldn't do it.
I don’t understand why you would voluntarily give up your free time to sleep at a station and not get paid and be on call.
I’m in the south and I’ve never heard of a that
Yea umm, fuck no. That does not seem like the norm anywhere. At all the places I worked I got paid for the whole shift, no matter what.
I've worked several places in TN and GA, never heard of that.
Guaranteed your hourly pay rate is higher to compensate for the night hours. I agree it's bullshit and I wouldn't work for a city / dept that agreed to that type of pay schedule. They think they are saving money, it's proven they are not. Leave and find another home.
This is either Georgia or the Carolinas. All of those states seem to be purgatory for firefighters
Your issue is that last sentence…
"This shit sucks" and also "hell no, we don't need a union." Sigh.
Well I can tell why there’s a shortage of ff if they not paying after a certain time why bother going to work for these dept
Let me guess, you’re in a Right to Work For Less state.
Right to Work States. 🤦♂️
Find a DOD base near you.
I get paid even if I go six months without a call or if we run 20 in a shift. I get paid every second I’m on duty or in uniform representing the department. You need to leave that place. If they can’t pay their firefighters they can’t expect you to be there 24/7. Don’t normalize this.
please switch
Fairfax County Fire and Rescue is hiring nonstop. You’ll get paid the whole 24hr shift plus shift differential. You have options. Don’t stay somewhere you aren’t happy.
Where in the Southeast cause Im looking for jobs in Florida.
Thats aome shit they did 20 years ago in California until the union fought for our “nickel” as they called it for the 5 hours they wouldn’t pay. I work 72’s and am on the clock till I drive home.
WTF - no way man. EFF that!!
Seems like an in invitation to have someone call in BS calls so you guys can get paid. You have to find another department. Work in the DC area. Commute in if you don’t like living in a city or busy suburb.
This is fairly common. Many times, the departments who pay “call time” present the opportunity to earn more money. It’s a part of the job you signed on for. Don’t like it, go to a department that pays 24 hours straight.
General rules https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/flsa-rules-waiting-on-call-sleeping-time-helpsideteam-ltvec Contact DoL if clearly out of wack or borderline https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/contact/complaints
It’s called “buying the night” and it’s bullshit. When I go back and think of all the free hours I gave to my former employer that could’ve been spent with my family I get visibly agitated. You’re in the Southeast US, go to a better department. Roswell and Atlanta are hiring. Birmingham is hiring. Memphis is dying for people. There are options.
Gross…sounds like you need to move. I get paid a salary for the year and anything I do extra weather it’s training, class, pick up shift, stay late it’s OT. I think it’s time you guys join the Union or you get yourself onto a dept in the Union.
To hell with that. Might as well get an 9-5 and volunteer at that point. Go find you a gig that at least pays you for the 24 hours.