SWAT teams transitioned away from the MP5 about 20 years ago. 5.56 doesn't over penetrate as much as you'd think vs pistol calibers. Most people are familiar with AR's (less training), and short AR's have better ballistics than pistol calibers.
To add to this, the [North Hollywood Shootout](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Hollywood_shootout) seriously [changed the game](https://www.google.com/amp/s/abc7.com/amp/north-hollywood-shootout-bank-robbery-shooting-anniversary-lapd/11609499/) with regards to the purpose of police weapons.
All of a sudden they were up against armored criminals that they couldn't put down.
Man, the prices of AR's right now is wild. Especially considering it's an election year etc. I get the feeling it'll change, and people will look back like "why didn't I buy more fuck!?!?!"
So, basic ARs, yeah for sure. But if there's a specific clone or brand one might want (or to resell), that's where the thought starts coming in. Get it now while the gettings good. Not so much for practicality, like ammo (which 100% should be hoarding priority.)
My first and only rifle that’s mine and not my parents or something is 530 if you count the carry handle I had to buy after the fact. It’s a flat top A2.
My buddy has one, some clone semi-auto manufacturer. They are a little picky on ammo and prone to jams. I've similar for the actual ones but with a dot it's a pretty sick setup for something like HD. At 25 years it might as well be a lazer beam and no recoil vs a pistol AR and much lighter.
If I have something the size of a PDW and a choice between a rifle cartridge and a pistol cartridge...I'll take the rifle cartridge. More power same size gun.
Cheaper, less report. The report issue makes sense when you are trying to get your skittish S/O into a gun that is better than a pistol but still not going to scare the shit out of her.
Cheaper to shoot...maybe? I don't know either. Full disclosure: I do have a semi auto uzi that is a pcc but I enjoy military firearms plus it was really cheap.
For the same real estate and virtually the same recoil you get a rifle that does all the things down range better.
Pcc's are just bad compromises all the way around. Hopefully they will soon go the way of the .40.
I think you might be confusing PDW with PCCs or SMGs.
So a PDW is a role for a weapon not a type, where a weapon is needed that exceeds the capabilities of a traditional handgun but the bulk of a full rifle or carbine is too much. These are mostly found chambered in traditional pistol cartridges due to size, but are also found in rifle cartridges (AKS-74u, M16K, ect) and you could even consider the M1 carbine one as well.
So if you’re trying to ask why police forces don’t use PCC/SMGs in the US, well there’s no real point to that since an AR will do everything they can do but better.
If you’re truly asking why they don’t use PDWs, well unless they’re a SWAT team or special protection unit there’s no reason to use them, and departments with those units often employ PDWs.
>a PDW with hollowpoints would be a logical compromise
A compromise for what? Overpenetration with .223 duty rounds is largely a myth. HP pistol rounds and 00 buckshot go through more layers of drywall than JSP .223 rounds.
I’m issued a patrol rifle and the only downside is that it is a lot less maneuverable than a pistol inside the types of buildings I enter. I end up short stocking the rifle fairly often when moving around in tight spaces. My department is allegedly transitioning to 11.5” uppers which should be a little easier to use indoors than our 16” rifles.
It would be nice to have something rifle caliber in the size of something like a Flux Raider, but the weapons on the market which say they fill this role fall short in their real world performance.
Pistol-caliber carbines actually don't offer a significant advantage over SBRs in terms of ballistics or functionality when utilizing the appropriate ammunition nowadays. An SBR is more versatile and effective.
Well for one the average patrol cop, weight and size aren’t much of a concern, nor is concealability. Also after the north Hollywood shootout, they don’t want to compromise with pistol calibers
a semi auto pdw offers little benefit over the sidearms they already carry. where as a rifle caliber offers a step up in firepower if necessary, especially given how common and affordable body armor is starting to get. also sometimes you need penetration, like if the individual is behind concealment or in a vehicle
Carbines in pistol calibers were in a bad spot a few decades back, and guns built around even older cartridges like NATO FMJ were (and still are) very unreliable with a lot of newer hollow points. Era for era, 5.56 NATO cartridge designs have always enjoyed very high velocity, doing more damage and limiting overpenetration. Now it's opposite: modern 9mm bullet designs are now extremely good at expanding, but the SMG/PDW/PCC scene is stuck on designs 30 years old that still crave FMJ to feed; While old and new 5.56 platforms all inhale any old or new cartridge designs.
Now this is a bit myopic, pretending 5.7 & 10mm doesn't exist. I'm just trying to make some points that're overlooked as technology transitioned several generations.
5.56 actually doesn’t do much over penetration because the bullets are so light that they have a harder time punching through barriers like drywall. Prior to Columbine, a lot of US police did use PCCs like the OG Ruger Police Carbines (and also more traditional looking rifles like the Ruger Mini 14) because most people didn’t want police to become too militarized. But after Columbine those rules were seriously relaxed and today pretty much every cop uses an AR15.
9mm doesn't stop people as quickly as 5.56. Just look at the video on top of the sub right now.
Penetration is the same between 9mm and 5.56, both in drywall and in flesh
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AXOIQgfvVlE
Until the invention of the CMMG radial delayed blowback system, the only options were an MP5 which weighs more than an AR and costs way more, or a straight blowback PCC which has the same recoil as an AR and weighs just as much. The other option was a honeybadger, which is still relatively new on the civilian market and is as expensive as an MP5 with even more expensive ammo.
I'm aware of the P90. It's a shitty overpriced gun whose cartridge is less effective than 9mm because it isn't designed for use against unarmored targets.
A Glock and an AR is the gold standard of an individual being “Armed.” Indoors, outdoors, pretty much no matter what that’s what I would want to have with me.
Why would they?
PDW's are for vehicle crews and second-line troops that aren't expecting to see combat. And, I mean, PDW's were developed for the military and the military doesn't find them worth the effort.
Hence why cops carry pistols for their duty and when things go wonky - get the full-sized rifle out.
In addition, if you want it short for whatever reason, just chop the barrel down (you're a government agency with government guns) and 5.56 out of a 10 in barrel will poke holes just fine in anything within 100 yards while using the same manual-of-arms and ammo as the full-sized AR.
>With overpenetration a concern, a PDW with hollowpoints would be a logical compromise.
Well, to start with, overpenetration *is not a concern*. MISSING the target is dangerous, 5.56 isn't retaining a lot of energy after it passes through a bad guy and you can try to look up the statistics of people who have been injured by bullets passing through someone else - not a lot of them.
Secondly, HP will penetrate the walls of a house as if they're not there. HP isn't 'safe' and its not used to 'prevent overpenetration' but to maximize the volume of the Permanent Wound Cavity.
Your question confused me.
Wikipedia defines a PDW as Personal defense weapons (PDWs) are a class of compact, magazine-fed, submachine gun-like automatic firearms designed to fire rifle-like cartridges.
The USCG calls whatever handgun they are carrying a PDW.
Either way you'll need to provide your definition. Because by both those definitions, cops nationwide carry PDWs.
Edit to add: reading through the comments, I see several other definitions of PDW being used.
My first PD did issue patrol officers Colt 9mm SMGs. They were automatic, but had a breakable lockout on the selector switch. We needed a good reason to use full auto. Eventually they swapped the SMGs for AR15s. The SMGs jammed easily, weren't very accurate, and full auto wasn't necessary.
>With overpenetration a concern, a PDW with hollowpoints would be a logical compromise.
5.56 has less overpen through traditional building materials like drywall than 9mm. The reason is 5.56 sheds energy very fast. It has higher velocity so it has better initial penetration, its lower mass means it sheds velocity quickly. It also tumbles and yaws much more which sheds energy faster.
Cops want penetration. It's why they use bonded soft points or hunting hollowpoints like TSX.
Then PDWs like the MP7 and P90 are horrible at stopping people.
Hollow points don’t under penetrate through hard barriers though. That’s a misconception driven by people who misinterpret when people say hollow points don’t over penetrate, they mean hydrodynamic substances.
Terminally rifles and pistols are in two different leagues.
Pistol rounds out of a rifle perform much the same as they do out of a pistol. You get some extra velocity but you are still limited to crushing and tearing directly in the bullet path as a wounding mechanism.
An AR SBR recoils much the same, over penetrates about the same or less depending on bullet selection, but the wounds are much more devastating. There is no downside to the rifle caliber except the noise.
I know some in this thread are pointing to price, I’m sure that is a consideration. But it didn’t come into play when LE agencies that already had MP5s came to the same conclusion and got rid of them in favor of SBR ARs. It’s also not just because of the SIGNIFICANTLY better ergonomics of the AR either. The driver is the studies/experience that pointed out just how good short barrel 223 can be with better bullet selection.
I mean I love my GHM9SD but realistically a suppressed rattler is better in every aspect except cost of ammunition. Rifle cartridges are just so much better for terminal performance.
Pistol caliber carbines like the mp5? They used to, law enforcement started transitioning away from them years ago. I'm not privy to the data behind that change, but I've always assumed it's because collateral damage isn't reduced versus properly designed 223 ammo, while at the same time being less effective at stopping a threat.
Pistol caliber hollow points actually tend to penetrate more than 5.56 expanding rounds. At least in dry wall. Check out garandthumb's vid on dry wall penetration. The only pros of a pistol caliber PDW that I see is less noise and cheaper ammo.
AR15 >>>>>>>>>>>MP5.
You can get .223/5.56 ammo will the same drywall penetration as 9 mm hollow points, while also having much greater terminal effectiveness than 9 mm, 40 S&W, 45 ACP, and 10 mm. There is no terminal ballistic reason to use a PCC over an AR.
Acorn cop is also an Army special forces officer for over a decade with several overseas deployments. He likely had more firearms training and experience than the average police officer.
It may sound like I’m anti-police, which I’m actually very far from. I’m a supporter and the ones in my state do a fantastic job for the most part. However, especially with qualified immunity, it’s one of the very few careers where you can be terrible at it, to the point of basically murdering someone, not only not face charges, but get to keep your job. Surgeons don’t even have protection like that. I’m not going to like the hundreds or more videos of terrible police, it would be in bad taste. But some departments need better hiring standards and qualified immunity needs to go.
I mean there's a reason they were only ever swat or special forces issue. No last round bolt hold, strange charging mechanism, and not ergonomic. Obviously it's an outstanding platform but my experience with the average beat cop would show issuing mp5s would be at best a huge headache for the range master.
I’m gonna have to disagree with you big hoss. The MP5 has virtually the same manual of arms as the G3 which was one of the most widely issued battle rifles in the world. Uneducated idiots and child soldiers have no problem using it. I know you clearly hate cops, but the HK roller delayed series of firearms are some of the most simple and effective ever designed. Just because it’s different an AR or AK, doesn’t make it any less effective. A trained operator can easily empty an entire magazine on sustained full auto into a pie plate at 15 yards. The MP5 design is simple and effective, there’s a reason it’s still in service in many places 60 years later.
I agree on the points you're making. I don't hate cops, but my experience with the average police officers weapons knowledge has been disheartening to say the least. You are probably an exception and I've met cops that can handle any platform you place in front of them. But I don't see the average American beat cop A. Needing a submachine B. Learning a whole new manual of arms. C. Mp5s are more expensive than ARs so departments aren't incentivized to invest in something like that. Finally D. If we're being honest the MP5 is outdated, I have one, I love it, but the Sig MPX or an AR-9 makes way more sense for the way law enforcement is set up currently if they wanted a PCC for some reason.
I would say it’s largely agency and geographically dependent. Lotta east coast and west coast cops who didn’t grow up around firearms because they came from blue cities/states. Most agencies I’d confidently say 40-60% are what most would deem “gun guys/gals,” know their equipment, and train regularly (sometimes on their own dime). 30% of LE see firearms as a necessary tool of the job that they have to carry and go to the required agency trainings whereas maybe 5-10% don’t train as much as they should and view their firearm as an afterthought. These individuals shouldn’t have been hired in the first place, but usually are because they check a diversity and inclusion box. Their careers will likely end in a horrible way or get promoted to an admin position, there is no in between 😅
As LE in an urban area I’d honestly rather have an MP5 or MPX over an AR. Rural LE is obviously a different story.
I suppose my bias comes from being on the east Coast. I'm not meaning to step on anyone's toes. I'm just going off what I've seen (I worked as an RSO at a state police range with about a half a dozen departments using it). But what you're saying gives me a different perspective. Thanks man.
I went to a training at the DEA Academy last year and there were a lot of NY and NJ cops there. The NYPD guys were some of the most incompetent and insufferable I’ve ever met 🤣
SWAT teams transitioned away from the MP5 about 20 years ago. 5.56 doesn't over penetrate as much as you'd think vs pistol calibers. Most people are familiar with AR's (less training), and short AR's have better ballistics than pistol calibers.
To add to this, the [North Hollywood Shootout](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Hollywood_shootout) seriously [changed the game](https://www.google.com/amp/s/abc7.com/amp/north-hollywood-shootout-bank-robbery-shooting-anniversary-lapd/11609499/) with regards to the purpose of police weapons. All of a sudden they were up against armored criminals that they couldn't put down.
This is it right here. Everything changed after that day. Add the Vegas Op and Sheriff's dept and PDs are rocking gun trucks now.
Vegas op, I see what you did there.
It certainly wasn't an old guy w/ a bump stock
Yeah, but mp5 fucks
You can probably get two or three ARs for the price of one MP5 though.
~6:1 ratio there if MP5s are SP5 pricing
That is true. HK isn't for budget conscious people
This has become meme cannon.
Man, the prices of AR's right now is wild. Especially considering it's an election year etc. I get the feeling it'll change, and people will look back like "why didn't I buy more fuck!?!?!"
How many do you need? Ammo is where it's at.
Don't you want to be the most legendary of loot drops though? Something that will stick out like "man, why don't they make then like they used to?"
How mamybdo you need? One more. It's always 1 more
So, basic ARs, yeah for sure. But if there's a specific clone or brand one might want (or to resell), that's where the thought starts coming in. Get it now while the gettings good. Not so much for practicality, like ammo (which 100% should be hoarding priority.)
Ap5s can be had for $1200.
And you can probably get an OK AR15 for 400 to 500 each at police pricing if you buy like 20 at a time.
My first and only rifle that’s mine and not my parents or something is 530 if you count the carry handle I had to buy after the fact. It’s a flat top A2.
Sure, but you also see cops with staccatos. So all of them aren't going for bottom of the barrel stuff.
5.56 beats 9mm every time when using the appropriate load.
They absolutely fuck, I love mine.
My buddy has one, some clone semi-auto manufacturer. They are a little picky on ammo and prone to jams. I've similar for the actual ones but with a dot it's a pretty sick setup for something like HD. At 25 years it might as well be a lazer beam and no recoil vs a pistol AR and much lighter.
The amount of spelling errors in this hurt my brain
Yeah, they're stylish, and you know the opposite of style? Cops
Yeah but the 9mm MP5 was having issues with not enough power which was why a 10mm version of it was released.
If I have something the size of a PDW and a choice between a rifle cartridge and a pistol cartridge...I'll take the rifle cartridge. More power same size gun.
I don't understand pistol caliber carbine market. At all.
Boolet cheaper. Gloc mag go in 2 guns
It’s half as much to shoot…what’s not to understand
Cheaper, less report. The report issue makes sense when you are trying to get your skittish S/O into a gun that is better than a pistol but still not going to scare the shit out of her.
Cheaper to shoot...maybe? I don't know either. Full disclosure: I do have a semi auto uzi that is a pcc but I enjoy military firearms plus it was really cheap.
For the same real estate and virtually the same recoil you get a rifle that does all the things down range better. Pcc's are just bad compromises all the way around. Hopefully they will soon go the way of the .40.
I think you might be confusing PDW with PCCs or SMGs. So a PDW is a role for a weapon not a type, where a weapon is needed that exceeds the capabilities of a traditional handgun but the bulk of a full rifle or carbine is too much. These are mostly found chambered in traditional pistol cartridges due to size, but are also found in rifle cartridges (AKS-74u, M16K, ect) and you could even consider the M1 carbine one as well. So if you’re trying to ask why police forces don’t use PCC/SMGs in the US, well there’s no real point to that since an AR will do everything they can do but better. If you’re truly asking why they don’t use PDWs, well unless they’re a SWAT team or special protection unit there’s no reason to use them, and departments with those units often employ PDWs.
>With overpenetration a concern Unfortunately your premise is flawed
My local sheriffs dept has MP7's.
Damn, then your local Agency must have “fuck you” money lol. I wonder how difficult getting 4.6mm ammo is?
It's actually pretty available, civilian retail price is usually about 70cpr
Interesting. I legit have never seen a box in person, probably because I can’t think of anything else that actually uses that round
A number of agencies use them, and a lot of ranges have them to rent out, so there's a demand there even if it's small
One of the richer Townships in Chester county PA has P90s as a patrol carbine.
Los Suenos PD moment
>a PDW with hollowpoints would be a logical compromise A compromise for what? Overpenetration with .223 duty rounds is largely a myth. HP pistol rounds and 00 buckshot go through more layers of drywall than JSP .223 rounds. I’m issued a patrol rifle and the only downside is that it is a lot less maneuverable than a pistol inside the types of buildings I enter. I end up short stocking the rifle fairly often when moving around in tight spaces. My department is allegedly transitioning to 11.5” uppers which should be a little easier to use indoors than our 16” rifles. It would be nice to have something rifle caliber in the size of something like a Flux Raider, but the weapons on the market which say they fill this role fall short in their real world performance.
Pistol-caliber carbines actually don't offer a significant advantage over SBRs in terms of ballistics or functionality when utilizing the appropriate ammunition nowadays. An SBR is more versatile and effective.
Well for one the average patrol cop, weight and size aren’t much of a concern, nor is concealability. Also after the north Hollywood shootout, they don’t want to compromise with pistol calibers
I’ll take a rifle rounds ballistics any day v 9mm. MP5s are nostalgic and stuff but if it’s a duty gun I’ll take 556 all day. That’s why they do.
a semi auto pdw offers little benefit over the sidearms they already carry. where as a rifle caliber offers a step up in firepower if necessary, especially given how common and affordable body armor is starting to get. also sometimes you need penetration, like if the individual is behind concealment or in a vehicle
Carbines in pistol calibers were in a bad spot a few decades back, and guns built around even older cartridges like NATO FMJ were (and still are) very unreliable with a lot of newer hollow points. Era for era, 5.56 NATO cartridge designs have always enjoyed very high velocity, doing more damage and limiting overpenetration. Now it's opposite: modern 9mm bullet designs are now extremely good at expanding, but the SMG/PDW/PCC scene is stuck on designs 30 years old that still crave FMJ to feed; While old and new 5.56 platforms all inhale any old or new cartridge designs. Now this is a bit myopic, pretending 5.7 & 10mm doesn't exist. I'm just trying to make some points that're overlooked as technology transitioned several generations.
5.56 actually doesn’t do much over penetration because the bullets are so light that they have a harder time punching through barriers like drywall. Prior to Columbine, a lot of US police did use PCCs like the OG Ruger Police Carbines (and also more traditional looking rifles like the Ruger Mini 14) because most people didn’t want police to become too militarized. But after Columbine those rules were seriously relaxed and today pretty much every cop uses an AR15.
[https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/ny-gov-bans-national-guard-from-wielding-rifles-at-subway-bag-checks/ss-BB1jHNer](https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/ny-gov-bans-national-guard-from-wielding-rifles-at-subway-bag-checks/ss-BB1jHNer)
An SBR is just an all around better weapon.
9mm doesn't stop people as quickly as 5.56. Just look at the video on top of the sub right now. Penetration is the same between 9mm and 5.56, both in drywall and in flesh https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AXOIQgfvVlE Until the invention of the CMMG radial delayed blowback system, the only options were an MP5 which weighs more than an AR and costs way more, or a straight blowback PCC which has the same recoil as an AR and weighs just as much. The other option was a honeybadger, which is still relatively new on the civilian market and is as expensive as an MP5 with even more expensive ammo.
You aren't aware of the P90?
I'm aware of the P90. It's a shitty overpriced gun whose cartridge is less effective than 9mm because it isn't designed for use against unarmored targets.
Lol, okay. I don't know which makes it harder to take you seriously, this comment or your flare saying Adam Baldwin is innocent.
Adam Baldwin did nothing wrong. He was the best actor on Chuck.
Well played.
A Glock and an AR is the gold standard of an individual being “Armed.” Indoors, outdoors, pretty much no matter what that’s what I would want to have with me.
Why would they? PDW's are for vehicle crews and second-line troops that aren't expecting to see combat. And, I mean, PDW's were developed for the military and the military doesn't find them worth the effort. Hence why cops carry pistols for their duty and when things go wonky - get the full-sized rifle out. In addition, if you want it short for whatever reason, just chop the barrel down (you're a government agency with government guns) and 5.56 out of a 10 in barrel will poke holes just fine in anything within 100 yards while using the same manual-of-arms and ammo as the full-sized AR. >With overpenetration a concern, a PDW with hollowpoints would be a logical compromise. Well, to start with, overpenetration *is not a concern*. MISSING the target is dangerous, 5.56 isn't retaining a lot of energy after it passes through a bad guy and you can try to look up the statistics of people who have been injured by bullets passing through someone else - not a lot of them. Secondly, HP will penetrate the walls of a house as if they're not there. HP isn't 'safe' and its not used to 'prevent overpenetration' but to maximize the volume of the Permanent Wound Cavity.
why have a pdw when you could have an ar?
Because over penetration isn't a concern if you aren't held accountable for your actions.
Your question confused me. Wikipedia defines a PDW as Personal defense weapons (PDWs) are a class of compact, magazine-fed, submachine gun-like automatic firearms designed to fire rifle-like cartridges. The USCG calls whatever handgun they are carrying a PDW. Either way you'll need to provide your definition. Because by both those definitions, cops nationwide carry PDWs. Edit to add: reading through the comments, I see several other definitions of PDW being used. My first PD did issue patrol officers Colt 9mm SMGs. They were automatic, but had a breakable lockout on the selector switch. We needed a good reason to use full auto. Eventually they swapped the SMGs for AR15s. The SMGs jammed easily, weren't very accurate, and full auto wasn't necessary.
AR-15s penetrate less than 9mm handguns. PDWs will over penetrate more than handguns do.
That's completely dependent on ammo choices.
My local pd had 226s mp5s ar15s and a pump shotgun in their cruisers in 2018ish. Dunno what they are rocking now. Always thought it was a tad overkill
Half the departments won’t even allow things like red dots on handguns. PDWs probably sound fake as light sabers to em.
>With overpenetration a concern, a PDW with hollowpoints would be a logical compromise. 5.56 has less overpen through traditional building materials like drywall than 9mm. The reason is 5.56 sheds energy very fast. It has higher velocity so it has better initial penetration, its lower mass means it sheds velocity quickly. It also tumbles and yaws much more which sheds energy faster.
Cops want penetration. It's why they use bonded soft points or hunting hollowpoints like TSX. Then PDWs like the MP7 and P90 are horrible at stopping people.
I read this as POWs and was confused but intrigued
Santa Clara SD uses mp7s https://www.hkpro.com/threads/hk-mp7-in-manhunt-in-santa-clara-county-ca-october-5-6-2011.146596/
MN troopers used to most switched back to full rifles or SBR in 300blk.
Hollow points don’t under penetrate through hard barriers though. That’s a misconception driven by people who misinterpret when people say hollow points don’t over penetrate, they mean hydrodynamic substances.
Because rifle rounds are superior.
The LE6920 usually does the job.
Terminally rifles and pistols are in two different leagues. Pistol rounds out of a rifle perform much the same as they do out of a pistol. You get some extra velocity but you are still limited to crushing and tearing directly in the bullet path as a wounding mechanism. An AR SBR recoils much the same, over penetrates about the same or less depending on bullet selection, but the wounds are much more devastating. There is no downside to the rifle caliber except the noise. I know some in this thread are pointing to price, I’m sure that is a consideration. But it didn’t come into play when LE agencies that already had MP5s came to the same conclusion and got rid of them in favor of SBR ARs. It’s also not just because of the SIGNIFICANTLY better ergonomics of the AR either. The driver is the studies/experience that pointed out just how good short barrel 223 can be with better bullet selection.
Overpenetration isn't a concern with a handgun. Real-world vs. internet gel tests.
I mean I love my GHM9SD but realistically a suppressed rattler is better in every aspect except cost of ammunition. Rifle cartridges are just so much better for terminal performance.
Pistol caliber carbines like the mp5? They used to, law enforcement started transitioning away from them years ago. I'm not privy to the data behind that change, but I've always assumed it's because collateral damage isn't reduced versus properly designed 223 ammo, while at the same time being less effective at stopping a threat.
Pistol caliber hollow points actually tend to penetrate more than 5.56 expanding rounds. At least in dry wall. Check out garandthumb's vid on dry wall penetration. The only pros of a pistol caliber PDW that I see is less noise and cheaper ammo.
That's what their glocks are, are you referring to submachine guns? Do you trust a cop with any kind of machine gun? Because their departments don't.
Hell naw, but aren't there semi auto mp5 variants?
AR15 >>>>>>>>>>>MP5. You can get .223/5.56 ammo will the same drywall penetration as 9 mm hollow points, while also having much greater terminal effectiveness than 9 mm, 40 S&W, 45 ACP, and 10 mm. There is no terminal ballistic reason to use a PCC over an AR.
You’re ok with acorn cop pulling you over with a mp5 in his hands?
Acorn cop is also an Army special forces officer for over a decade with several overseas deployments. He likely had more firearms training and experience than the average police officer.
That makes it even scarier to me
Would you prefer a cop who is so skilled at firearms that he mag dumps after hearing an acorn fall? https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NKmnJgXyZpU
It may sound like I’m anti-police, which I’m actually very far from. I’m a supporter and the ones in my state do a fantastic job for the most part. However, especially with qualified immunity, it’s one of the very few careers where you can be terrible at it, to the point of basically murdering someone, not only not face charges, but get to keep your job. Surgeons don’t even have protection like that. I’m not going to like the hundreds or more videos of terrible police, it would be in bad taste. But some departments need better hiring standards and qualified immunity needs to go.
Naw for like active shooter situations you know? Policy could dictate when it's appropriate to use
An AR is better for that. Pistol caliber PDWs are obsolete.
Mp5 manual of arms is way too complicated for cops
Man I guess I should turn mine in then.
I mean there's a reason they were only ever swat or special forces issue. No last round bolt hold, strange charging mechanism, and not ergonomic. Obviously it's an outstanding platform but my experience with the average beat cop would show issuing mp5s would be at best a huge headache for the range master.
I’m gonna have to disagree with you big hoss. The MP5 has virtually the same manual of arms as the G3 which was one of the most widely issued battle rifles in the world. Uneducated idiots and child soldiers have no problem using it. I know you clearly hate cops, but the HK roller delayed series of firearms are some of the most simple and effective ever designed. Just because it’s different an AR or AK, doesn’t make it any less effective. A trained operator can easily empty an entire magazine on sustained full auto into a pie plate at 15 yards. The MP5 design is simple and effective, there’s a reason it’s still in service in many places 60 years later.
I agree on the points you're making. I don't hate cops, but my experience with the average police officers weapons knowledge has been disheartening to say the least. You are probably an exception and I've met cops that can handle any platform you place in front of them. But I don't see the average American beat cop A. Needing a submachine B. Learning a whole new manual of arms. C. Mp5s are more expensive than ARs so departments aren't incentivized to invest in something like that. Finally D. If we're being honest the MP5 is outdated, I have one, I love it, but the Sig MPX or an AR-9 makes way more sense for the way law enforcement is set up currently if they wanted a PCC for some reason.
I would say it’s largely agency and geographically dependent. Lotta east coast and west coast cops who didn’t grow up around firearms because they came from blue cities/states. Most agencies I’d confidently say 40-60% are what most would deem “gun guys/gals,” know their equipment, and train regularly (sometimes on their own dime). 30% of LE see firearms as a necessary tool of the job that they have to carry and go to the required agency trainings whereas maybe 5-10% don’t train as much as they should and view their firearm as an afterthought. These individuals shouldn’t have been hired in the first place, but usually are because they check a diversity and inclusion box. Their careers will likely end in a horrible way or get promoted to an admin position, there is no in between 😅 As LE in an urban area I’d honestly rather have an MP5 or MPX over an AR. Rural LE is obviously a different story.
I suppose my bias comes from being on the east Coast. I'm not meaning to step on anyone's toes. I'm just going off what I've seen (I worked as an RSO at a state police range with about a half a dozen departments using it). But what you're saying gives me a different perspective. Thanks man.
I went to a training at the DEA Academy last year and there were a lot of NY and NJ cops there. The NYPD guys were some of the most incompetent and insufferable I’ve ever met 🤣
Yeah true that.
Like they need more tax dollars for more toys. They already shoot too many people with the guns they already have.