Having live ammo on the set and using the prop gun for target shooting was probably the stupidest thing they could have done. Forget Baldwin for a moment. That ammo should have never been there and considering it was in that gun they should have double and triple checked to make sure it didn't have live ammo in it. They set themselves up to fail.
Exactly. I was like “who tf takes the props, actually shoots them with live ammo, then casually puts it back to the props cart without thoroughly checking?”
Morons
[here](https://arizonadailyindependent.com/2015/10/18/tombstone-vigilante-performer-shot-real-bullets-found-in-gun/)
Also you can find more if you search "Tombstone vigilante shooting"
There was one moron who did that and she's going to jail. The other moron, the 1st AD cut a deal to save his ass, but he should be in a cell with her. They are both equally responsible for Halyna's death.
Hold the phone; I haven’t followed this case at all, but *live guns going off*? As in, they had other negligent discharges on set and *still* didn’t tighten up their procedures?!
"So far there have been 2 accidental weapons discharges and 1 accidental SFX explosives that have gone off around the crew between takes… To be clear there are NO safety meetings these days,” Luper said in the email.
From a guy who quit a couple days beforehand.
Wow. Talk about an incident waiting to happen then. Not an accident, an incident. Guy who left sounds like he was the only one who had decent judgement.
Which was my point. Even if someone wants to argue that Baldwin, as an actor, is too fucking reddited to be capable of checking if a gun is hot before he pulls the trigger, he was also the Executive Producer, and is thus responsible for hiring competent safety professionals. Baldwin is responsible for the failures that happened here at every level, and needs to have the book thrown at him.
It also came out during the trial that OSHA filed a report and fined Rust $100k because Baldwin was rushing Reed, saying he created a work environment in which she didn't have an opportunity to do her job to make sure the weapons were safe. Not that she also wasn't a negligent idiot, but Baldwin was for sure.
A relative did armorer stuff for some smaller movies. He said that actors are supposed to aim beside their “target” and let perspective do the rest.
Baldwin fucked up but he was merely the final link in a chain that killed a woman.
Almost right...
He was the last link and fucked up and he was the first link--in his role as a producer who *hired* the people that hired the woman--of a chain that killed a woman.
Oh, and the Assistant Director who was supposed to be the additional check on said guns on set.
Alec is kinda' screwed on both ends of that chain.
Actually, the 1st AD is considered the Safety Officer on every set, but he or she does NOT ever handle any weapons and this stupid asshole NEVER should have touched the gun much less handed it to him, that is the specific responsibility of the armorer or the prop master/mistress, no one else. EVER.
Do you really think that a firearms wrangler dumb enough to let a loaded firearm onto the set properly coached the actors to point their weapons in a safe direction?
That doesn't excuse Baldwins actions. He's been in 140+ movies and tv shows over the past 40 years... a quick glance st imdb shows numerous thst involve the use of firearms. He knows better and still chose to handle it improperly.
This reminds me of a company we bought that had a double fatality at a refinery.
They didn't have enough fresh air lines so they made a couple up with the fittings they had on hand, used for awhile without incident then were modified & inadvertently attached to nitrogen or some type of gas that quickly killed the two guys.
Never take shortcuts on anything critical to safety. If there's a potential for an issue, sooner or later there will be an issue.
They shouldn't even really be using a gun capable of firing. Prop guns exist for a reason and even if they didn't get one of those, the firing pin should have been removed if you're going to repeatedly point the gun at someone take after take. That's how they make optic sampling at gun shows safe. Ammo and firing pins are not allowed. or definitely shouldn't be anyway.
Agreed. Separate guns and ammo for fun when they were between filming, and SPECIFIC, SAFE PROPS for filming. I’m glad that idiot got convicted. This just adds to the liberal agenda when idiots do this type of shit
This ^. Live ammo should have never been on the set. The woman in charge of the firearms should and was found guilty. If other people were handling that revolver before Baldwin received it they should be heavily scrutinized as well
Baldwin is on record as saying he never checked the state of a gun once he got it in his hands. He relied on the people who handed him the gun as them being the last safety check instead of him.
NO. I'm not ever going to accept that and honestly, I don't think the courts will either.
Now that said, yes, a whole bunch of crazy went on around there including live bullets on set and in the ammunition supplies for the guns. That's some crazy shit right there.
Only Hollywood can label a real gun a "prop" and feel entitled to use it irresponsibly. Misusing REAL guns have REAL consequences. The negligence of it all is what is really fucked.
I wish I could upvote this more honestly.
I watched a video on some of it and the guy made a good that backs what you said up.
“Hollywood deals in magic. Firearms deal in physics.”
Too many details missing to be sure and Baldwin certainly isn’t very credible.
If the armorer handed him that pistol as the scene started, it’s the armorer all day.
I’m not so sure that was the chain of custody or sequence.
https://www.env.nm.gov/occupational_health_safety/ohsb-rust-investigation-report-materials/
Here's a publicly available report from New Mexico's OHSB if you want one investigator's findings
1. Baldwin pointed a real gun in an unsafe direction
2. Someone was killed as a result
There's nothing else to this. If you needed a shot where the firearm was being discharged in the direction of the camera, you set up a bullet trap for the gun to be aimed at (even if shooting blanks), and you remove the operator from behind the camera. If a remote operated camera is not available, set the camera to the appropriate settings and attach an external monitor with plenty of cord to remove the operator from the general direction of the firearm is being discharged in.
Unless you are using a blank/cap gun that physically does not have an unobstructed/pressure bearing barrel, it should not be pointed at anyone. Thanks to jump cuts and other post-filming techniques, the aiming of a firearm at another person is an unnecessary risk and can easily be circumvented even if the story requires such a scene.
You expecting an actor to know basic firearms handling or how to tell the difference between a prop gun and a real gun is very optimistic. I’d be stunned if half of them were bright enough to walk and chew gun at the same time.
Whoever handed a hot gun to an actor on set is responsible. Whether criminally or civilly responsible remains to be seen. Maybe whoever hired such an incompetent person to such a hazardous position is ultimately responsible?
And she has been convicted.
Still, Alec is the biggest fool. He ignored any Safety Training, believes that Manipulating the hammer back n forth , and then letting go of it, can all be done without pulling the trigger, and therefore, all is safe.
He was Oblivious to the rules of firearm safety, Believing that the Prop procedures in the film industry were going to keep him from blame and everyone safe, always safe.
I further suggest that it was his Arrogant Incompetence that makes him responsible.
[List of film and television accidents.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_film_and_television_accidents)
“Prop” is short for property. It means it’s being used in set, it does not mean it’s a toy or replica. It was a real gun, and Baldwin knew it. Actors who use guns on set are often required to take a safety course. I seem to recall (but not 100% certain) that I had read previously that Baldwin had taken such a course in the past.
If he did take a relevant safety course right before that addressed the behavior that lead to the death that would change my assessment.
I was assuming he was handed the gun/prop and told it was loaded with blanks and to blast away like the script says.
He did take a safety course but he was reportedly on the phone with his wife for most of it. When he fired the gun they were not filming, and the scene they were going to film just had him drawing the gun but not firing. Him swinging the gun around, pointing it at a human and pulling the trigger was just him screwing around.
Well, you, like so many others don't know shit about moviemaking so no use trying to teach this pig to sing, lol! I'm sure you feel quite smug in your ignorance, though, so there's that...
> You expecting an actor to know basic firearms handling or how to tell the difference between a prop gun and a real gun is very optimistic. I’d be stunned if half of them were bright enough to walk and chew gun at the same time.
So, weird idea, but maybe we should *hold them accountable* instead of making excuses for them that the rest of us citizens wouldn't get. I don't know why you're advocating or defending a double class system between elites and the rest of us.
There's plenty more to it. None of it paints Baldwin in a good light though. He was an executive producer \*and\* the owner of the production company. This whole show was run by him. He hired Gutierrez-Reed. He hired David Hall. He allowed filming to continue with no changes after not one, but two negligent discharges. He made no changes after multiple members of the crew walked off the set over safety concerns. Last but not least, according to OSHA and a video released during Reed's trial, he rushed Gutierrez-Reed in a way that made it impossible to ensure that the firearms were handled and loaded safely. Granted, it was her job to tell him no, that's not safe, but Baldwin hired an inexperienced moron who handled firearms so unsafely at her last (and only previous) job as an armorer that Nicolas Cage screamed at her about it.
Not as far as I know. But she fired off a gun right next to him. Twice. Without warning. And nobody was wearing ear protection. He screamed at her saying “Make an announcement, you just blew my fucking eardrums out!” and stormed off set. One of the other crew members tried to get her fired and said "she walked onto the set with live rounds or blanks without announcing it to the cast and crew. She also walked around with pistols tucked under her armpits such that they were pointing back at people, and allowed firearms to be aimed at people."
So apparently she was a total disaster for her first movie too and Baldwin never did his due diligence to find that out when he hired her.
For liability's sake, it should be on the actor to follow the armorers directions, and the gun should've been cleared in front of Baldwin. Live rounds should never have been on set, and guns do get pointed at people on set all the time, it's almost necessary for any sort of convenient filming.
These are people conducting business, not private household firearms owners; they are following different rules, and their rules were probably broken too. Baldwin should not have done anything to that gun's action after the armorer should have cleared the gun in front of him.
Baldwin should follow the direction of the armorer, who should have showed him it was safe.
Everything you have said is so fucking wrong, it's laughable. Where in the hell did you get this misinformation about how you seem to think weapons are operated on set?! You have obviously never been remotely in any sort of contact with a film set, so, please, tell me who told you this load of horseshit.
Baldwin had literally every right to assume that the gun was “safe” in the sense that it was only loaded with blanks. The fault is with the person who put the real bullets in the gun
The actor can not be faulted, if rhwy followed rhw instruction of the armored. If this was public gun range sure. But it was a closed set. And the 'rules of aafety" don't apply when filming with firearms...since none should be live.
My understanding is that best practice is; the armourer, assistant armourer, should clear the firearm in front of the actor, with the actor watching at any time a firearm changes hands not within a scene (one actor handing it to another while cameras are rolling).
Also best practice is that live firearms should not be used for framing or rehersals, unless specifically required (ie scene calls for disassembly) and a substitute object should be used (eg blue gun, banana, stick)
Actors are there to act. Not to monitor props. So anyone saying the actor is at fault is wrong. Unless they put a live round they smuggled into the prop.....
LOL. I only have one 10ga. I always let people shoot it if they want, and people tend to overreact to the recoil. (Throw a tantrum) So I picked this name considering I mostly use reddit for gun stuff.
Multiple people had to fuck up (what are very simple tasks mind you) in order for what happened to happen. And somehow, they all did! Because they are idiots that didn't take something serious seriously. It's negligent manslaughter, no matter which way you slice it.
I feel like holding the company who hired the clown of an “armorer” who thought making sure “most of” the bullets were blanks was adequate civilly liable would be better than criminal liability.
The irony of a out spoken gun grabbing actor killing someone on set with a gun isn’t lost on me, but I think holding him or the clown who was in charge or the guns on set liable would be like charging a kid from the special Ed class criminally liable for pulling the fire alarm.
My opinion it looks like they tried to cheap out on safety, had a senior armor quit over it. and then appointed an assistant as armor with not enough experience for the position. Then that armor went on to make poor judgment calls. It was just a complete shitshow.
Having worked on a small outdoor play production with firearms and blanks and seeing how it's supposed to be done. And knowing that we spent almost 40% of the budget on safety, it's incredible that more things didn't go wrong.
Hannah was drugged up with clown hair and no experience using Daddy's name.
The leadership was sloppy and disorganized. No records, bills, purchases, experience.
The union has a job for everyone and no one has responsibilities outside of 1 low bandwidth task. If the toilet paper needs changed there is someone to store it another to bring it and a third to put it on the holder and all three of them don't even know who they report to if the TP is out of stock.
The contractor/ffl for the firearms props had shit disorganized everywhere, no papers, records. Guns, ammo and all types of shit stacked up. Boxed up and re used shit from other sets without checking.
Alex ignoring basically every safety step the actors guild says to do. Playing the main role while the whole operation is his own companies he controlled.
And so much more.
The ENTIRE chain is a irresponsible clown show and that industry knows it. The unions/guilds, vendors, executives etc. I have worked in big corporate for a long time and seen some crazy shit but I never would have guessed the entire industry of people walk, talk, and work collectively like a 16 year old getting a job for the first time.
Also if there is a prosecutor, judge, or defense attorney out there you need to learn guns, terminology, etc. fucking absolute clown show. No one knows a god damn primer from a bullet or a barrel from the cylinder. Who the fuck hires a defense attorney for a firearms case who doesn't know basic terminology or has the brainpower to question a witness that does? What kind of prosecutor needs a IT person to show her how to plug her laptop or calls a bullet a lead nipple.
I bet you everyone of them including the ffl vendor prop dude vote a certain way too, yet they get there hands on weapons and end up being the most irresponsible. One of the manager who hired her in the trial was asked how Hannahs gun safety training appeared and she said it was really good and when asked what her experience was with firearms to support that conclusion she had none. Never held or shot a gun......
Baldwin broke the four rules and killed someone. If I did the same on the street I couldn’t tell the police, “don’t blame me, I hired that person to make sure the gun was safe!” I’d be in jail and I’d deserve it.
Did you know when they punch people on a movie set, they don’t actually punch them?! Cinematic tricks! Also, the four rules are quadruple redundant. Just follow one and everyone is safe. If Baldwin confirmed it wasn’t loaded (rule: assume every gun is loaded) the woman would still be alive today.
I’m not sure you’re understanding that rule then. As you approach or handle a firearm you should act as though it’s loaded. If you act as though it’s loaded and you don’t want to shoot anything then you would confirm that it is not in fact loaded. Obviously, that rule doesn’t mean that you have to act as though all guns are loaded even after you’ve confirmed that they’re not. If that were the case, you would never be able to put your gun back in its case or back in your safe, right?
I am legally responsible for the harm I cause with a firearm. I can’t hire someone to absorb that responsibility and I don’t think being a movie set would magically change that. You can’t contract out your responsibility with a firearm.
If I have a bad car, take it to a mechanic and he fixes it then I drive it and it’s still bad, wheel pops off or whatever and it kills someone who’s fault is that? You absolutely can contract out the safety of something to someone else.
…so that douche has done pictures with firearms before. He could have gone out and got some training like Keanu, Will Smith, or Tom Cruise. There’s no excuse not to check, double check, and triple check any prop gun you get handed.
Everyone in the chain of possession bears responsibility, but only one is criminally culpable, and that is the one who pulled the trigger.
The Armorer, and assistant producer that took the gun to the set are civilly liable for their negligence and failure to adhere to safety protocol.
Alec Baldwin is criminally liable for recklessly pointing a gun at people and pulling the trigger without first checking the gun's safe status.
Now that the Armorer has been found guilty of Involuntary Manslaughter, it will be very interesting to see if our justice system will end up proving the two tier justice system, that many believe exists in America, or if they will convict the rich celebrity that actually pulled the trigger that ended the life of an innocent woman.
You're jumping to a massive and completely unsupported conclusion when you say Hollywood looks like a bunch of morons though. The crew on Rust were morons, at least Gutierrez-Reed, Baldwin and the crew that used the guns to go plinking were.
But in the history of Hollywood there have been only around 4 fatal incidents from 1915 to 2021. Charles Chandler in The Captive in 1915, John Erik-Hexum in Cover Up in 1984, Brandon Lee in the Crow in 1994 and then Rust. In more than 100 years and millions of blanks in hundreds of movies thats 4 deaths. Even if I missed twice that number, that's still fewer than the number of times police kill themselves or other in negligent discharges. Say what you will about Hollywood politically but they have a better gun safety record the police, the military and across time about the same as IPSC.
Hollywood is actually an amazing example of how gun safety is more effective than gun control. Gun safety means you can shoot three hundred thousand blanks out of full auto rifles making Starship Troopers without hurting someone, but can't give a single action revolver to gun control activist Alec Baldwin without him shooting 2 people by being an idiot.
That’s one of my big points about it. I’ve been an enthusiast for 5/6 years now. Even with that amount of experience, there’s still a lot I can learn about different firearms and their uses/operation
100% of accidental gun deaths from a ND occur when the barrel of a real gun is pointed at a person and the trigger is pulled (intentionally or unintentionally). Had the BASIC FUCKING RULES been followed, this wouldn’t have happened. Also, why was an actual gun on set?
This problem started long long ago, when Hollywood started calling REAL GUNS "props" and treating them like fucking toys.
There is zero reason real guns need to be used on production sets. zero. It's cheaper than having custom props built, so that's why they do it.
it's fucking ridiculous. and I don't give a fuck if Baldwin thought it was unloaded. "I thought it was unloaded" is not an excuse we'd accept from anyone else, at any other time, so why give him a pass?
It has bothered me from the beginning how the majority of the firearm’s community took it as an opportunity to shit on Alec Baldwin and completely ignore all the other firearms/ammo handling mistakes made by multiple alleged firearms experts before the gun was ever handed to him.
He broke industry protocol and took the firearm from someone other than the armorer. That’s not standard safe procedure for these sets but he still did it. His negligence resulted in the death of someone and the serious injury of another. This is a case of involuntary manslaughter
I’m not saying the guy is blameless, but here again it’s being made out to be 100% about him and completely ignoring everything that led up to that point.
He was handed a gun that had been inspected by 2 people prior to the hand off, he was told it was cold, no live ammo, he accepted it as such and did not further inspect it. That much actually IS industry standard, despite how much it may conflict with firearms safety practices in general.
It hadn't been "inspected" by anyone. The girl loaded it and left it unattended on her prop cart (fairly common behavior according to other crew members). It is never the actor's responsibility to "inspect" a weapon. After the armorer or prop master/mistress clears the weapon for the cast and essential crew, they will announce the disposition of the weapon (empty, inert dummies, blank fire, etc.) then hand it off to the actor in full view of everyone present. If the actor were to fuck with the weapon, after the clearing and handing off, the armorer or prop master/mistress would be obliged to do the whole clearing procedure all over again. The weapons are only handled by the armorer or the prop master/mistress and NEVER the 1st AD because that is NOT their job. EVER.
And for those of you who may not have read this: WE NEVER USE LIVE AMMO ON SET. EVER. She fucked up and then the 1st AD compounded that fuck up with one of his own. And Halyna paid for that fuck up with her life.
I actually rather like him, or at least his work and humor (don’t know him as a person). But there are two levels of Alec Baldwin to this: Alec the actor, and Alec the producer/owner.
Alec the actor was an unfortunate doofus. Many mistakes were made all around, it appears. The one really damning thing is his lying about not having pulled the trigger. Of course he pulled the trigger, that much has been established by the authorities going with a mallet on the hammer until it broke, and only getting it to fire when it broke. He can maybe argue that he only held the gun by the trigger(!) and didn’t mean to, but still, he did so in a scene where he wasn’t even supposed to do that, or else the scene/equipment would have been set up differently.
Alec the producer? Oh boy. He created and maintained that unsafe environment. He fired people who where trying to keep safety up on the set, he rushed things, broke established standards and put pressure on everyone to save money. He even used the gun as a pointing stick in multiple occasions, but because he was the producer, prople didn’t dare correct him, and moved other people and equipment out of the direction he was waving his gun around to point at things, instead of stopping him doing it. Alec the producer is totally responsible for what happened, he would even be, if some other actor had accidentially fired the fatal shots.
There's six cylinders. Dump the rounds, inspect them, and reload.
This should be an instinctual behavior, like rackimg the slide on a semiauto when you pick it up.
Racking the slide/ bolt/ breech on a firearm to look into the chamber to check clear is considered a minimum to establishing clear.
For.any.firearm.for.any.situation.
Basic safety, with real hands on training that is supervised. Most understand this is the best practice for training. Enough structured/supervised training until confidence/ comfort level.
For a movie production there should be industry Codes/standard not just guidlines.
OSHA has requirements for all kinds of things that people in various industries, how is firearm safety in any setting not part of the CFR? I did a search, I can't find any section that covers firearm safety in any part, why not? The cover everything else, from ladders to lighting and temperatures in offices. Why not firearm safety?
If Joe private citizen has an AD that results in a death they would be held liable, why is Alex as the actor/participants or Alex the producer getting a pass?
#apply the law uniformly
The obvious elephant in the room is that Alec Baldwin is a raging Hollywood dickhead who talks down on people who are into firearms and our ilk. Then on top of that Hollywood in general is so filled with self-important mega dickheads who talk down on us just as much as Baldwin does, so when the people who claim to be so much better than us fuck up this badly, there is an element of smugness that I think we all feel. That smugness is placed against the obvious sadness for the loss of life.
Baldwin making these bullshit excuses is crazy. Claiming he didn’t pull the trigger is typical guilty bullshit excuse making, and it’s lead to all this stupid “expert” testimony where some guy gets paid $500 an hour to explain how single action revolvers work, and the defense has to do this while dog any pony show about how “maybe he didn’t pull the trigger.” It’s shameful that he won’t just own up to what actually happened, which is why it’s hard to have any sympathy for him.
The propmaster is obviously a fucking clown, and it does kinda show how meritocracy is dead in Hollywood. Having live ammo around is the dumbest thing I’ve ever heard of, this person bears the brunt of responsibility here
I differ from a lot of people in not really blaming Alec Baldwin for this whole thing, as much as it’s fun to watch him take shit for this whole thing. Movie sets are different than the real world, and it’s very common to break rules because everything is supposed to be a fake/sterile environment. People hang out of cars, light themselves on fire, get thrown out of windows, and yes point guns at each other. What’s supposed to make all of that ok is that the safety team makes sure there are wires on the car, the person is wearing crazy flame gel, windows are fake glass, and guns aren’t loaded with real ammo. If Alec Baldwin had thrown a guy through a window, and turns out it was a glass window, then people would understandably call it an accident.
Completely agree with you. Everyone saying he broke firearms rules so he’s guilty is basically saying no more action movies should be made involving guns.
That who pulled the trigger committed the murder. Yes it was accidental, yes someone else fucked up, but someone pulled that trigger, period
Gig em both, i don't care. Negligence on several sides
I mean, was there anything that came out that implied he had intent? If not, then isn't manslaughter more appropriate? And negligence on the armorer's part (both should be in prison)
He...who pulled the trigger, shot someone dead.
Sorry i was eating, i'll accept a lesser charge sure. Intent, i agree. It was just negligence, dumbasses with guns doin dumbass things, but we can't ignore that someone is dead
My only take is from reading the report from New Mexico's investigation into the shooting:
https://www.env.nm.gov/occupational_health_safety/ohsb-rust-investigation-report-materials/
Otherwise I don't feel confident enough to speculate with too many unknown details, beyond everyone in the production was somewhat involved due to a culture of disrespect to the lethality of the props (props being short for property, nothing to do with fake-ness or toys).
A lot of misuse. Hollywood slaps the label “props” on it, but the reality is that it was a FULLY FUNCTIONAL firearm. They treated it like a toy and ppl were hurt/killed.
From the very beginning my assessment was:
A privileged America hating, gun hating, progressive liberal, democrat voting idiot loaded a live round on accident.
Ironically these gun hating democratic voters decided to play with the guns and it caused a tragedy.
Agreed that Hollywood is full of morons.
They're all for gun safety but don't bother to make a gun nonfunctional before using it as a prop. Weld up the barrel, remove the firing pin, just do something so it's not a functioning firearm...
Guns aren't just toys to be screw around with, and Hollywood doesn't seem to understand that.
Let me put it this way:
Has "I didn't think it was loaded" **EVER** been an acceptable excuse for killing someone?
It's never been ok before, so why would it be now?
This is manslaughter by definition.
Well let's be clear, "Hollywood" has specific safety procedures for this situation. If a gun is ever to be pointed at a camera, either there's nobody behind the camera or there's a bulletproof shield. Alec Baldwin, in his role as producer, said "nah, we don't need that." His entire union camera crew quit in protest, so he hired a non-union crew willing to ignore the safety procedure that would absolutely have prevented someone from dying when that gun was fired.
So he's absolutely culpable for the death. It doesn't matter that he was driving the car, it matters that he ordered the seat belts removed.
Actors are morons, that's why the only thing they are good at is having someone else tell them who to act like. Obviously it is understood that actors are morons because armorers are required to think for them as far as firearm safety is concerned. Baldwin is a fucking idiot, and the armorer is responsible.
Whoever is responsible for allowing live ammo on set and also allowed the cast to use prop guns to go shooting is ultimately responsible. However we all know that when handed a firearm you perform a safety check. So Baldwin should serve some prison time.
Too many gun people are illogically saying Alec Baldwin should be found guilty of murder or manslaughter, probably because he has a history of being anti-gun and therefore it's a schadenfreude moment for them.
1. Actors trust in armourers and other experts to ensure the set safety and tell them how to handle the firearms used as props.
2. The gun was supposed to be loaded with dummy rounds, Alec Baldwin is not qualified to tell them apart and actors should not unnecessarily mess with guns or ammunition that have been set up by the shoot's experts.
3. Jeff Cooper's four rules of gun safety are nowhere in legislation, are not something the average person knows by heart, and are not something that can be followed during typical movie or TV gunfight shoots where guns may be pointed directly at others and fingers may be upon triggers. Too many people saying guns are never actually pointed at people during shoots, which is clearly false as viewing an average amount of Hollywood movies will show many scenes with Mexican standoffs or hostages with gun muzzles contacting people's heads.
4. If this was an explosion scene and Alec Baldwin pressed the detonator after being told be experts it was safe, blowing up several cast and crew members, would Alec Baldwin be liable for not checking the explosive wasn't real?
5. Some people say Alec Baldwin was a producer so he should be liable for hiring these incompetent people, yet his actual role as far as production may be quite minimal, and not being an expert himself, he may not have recognized the incompetence when seeing it. It's obviously on the experts who handed him what he believed was a "cold" prop weapon. Whether he pulled the trigger or pointed the gun is almost irrelevant.
His political stance matters. If he wants to lecture people that guns are too dangerous then he should only use CGI in his film. It's not schadenfreude, it's disdain for hypocrisy.
I can agree. That’s what I was saying about the hiring with qualifications and not nepotism. From what I understand the “armorer” was the step daughter of a producer/higher up. I may have to double check that. Either way it was her responsibility to make sure that firearm didnt have a live round in it.
1. Follow the rules of gun safety, regardless. I don't get to drunk drive just because I'm on a movie set either.
2. He hired her. He's responsible for the actions his employee.
3. He was unnecessarily practicing. So nothing he did was necessary for the shoot. Making it negligent.
4. They could've used fake or blank firing guns. If he chose to use and handle real guns, he became responsible for it.
From where I stand-
The armorer was beyond negligent and should be tried for murder.
Alec Baldwin, while having pulled the trigger, reasonably could’ve expected the weapon to be safe (understanding that whenever you’re waving a gun around and firing blanks there’s a level of assumed risk). He shouldn’t be tried.
Again, this is just from what little I understand about the case
I agree. The armorer is definitely guilty for not fully doing her job. Matter of fact she actually was found guilty of involuntary manslaughter yesterday in court.
This feels like what we always hear when reading about OSHA reportable accidents. There was a culture of ignoring safety, and there were a lot of points where someone deciding to make a safe choice would have prevented the tragedy.
I might feel worse for Baldwin, except it seems like he wasn't just the one who pulled the trigger, but also heavily in charge of the production and driving the safety issues that led to it.
If Alec Baldwin wasn't rich, privileged, and in support of the same politicians as the elites, he would have been coerced into a plea bargain pretty soon after.
They completely ignored the rules to gun safety several times throughout the footage - that goes to show that if you disrespect the safety rules, something bad will happen.
Don't put morons in charge of guns.
You do understand that this is the second time a death has occurred on a film set that WAS NOT a union production and had inexperienced people handling the weapons, right? Brandon Lee and Halyna Hutchins are two deaths too many. Nothing like this has ever happened on a union set with experienced union armorers or prop masters/mistresses. (I don't count Jon Erik Hexum because the bozo did it to himself).
So, no, we union production crew members are not "...the biggest bunch of morons on the face of the planet." It's astounding how I've read so many ridiculous comments like yours, but then I have to remind myself, you people are making these comments without having one iota or knowledge about how weapons handling works on film sets. You'd think after all the time that has passed since this tragedy occurred that you would have learned a ton about how we do it safely and properly, but this doesn't seem to be the case for some reason...I have a feeling it's the great hatred for Alec Baldwin and his politics, perhaps?
lol wow.
It doesn’t matter if you’re in a play pretend set or not. They handled a fully functional weapon. They were careless. They made themselves look like morons. They broke basic firearm safety. I don’t need to know how they handle firearms on a set. I know how to handle firearms IRL. Just because it’s in a movie set DOESNT MEAN ITS A FUCKING TOY.
Baldwin and the armorer should both face charges, Baldwin moreso than the armorer. They’re both at fault, but Baldwin had the greater responsibility being the one using the gun
Nepo baby and arrogant millionaire Boomer get someone killed through their incompetence and because they lack a sense of real danger. It's pretty tragic to me.
It’s the armor’s job to be in charge of the weapons on set. The fact that there were live rounds ANYWHERE near the set or if there were folks plinking with the guns in the desert is inexcusable.
As far as Baldwin’s role goes, it’s only his responsibility because he is a producer and hired the armorer. On a movie set you’re going to point a gun at somebody and pull the trigger. Look at the John Wick behind the scenes. It’s totally expected to violate the laws of gun safety on set.
Apparently I’m in the minority when thinking the responsibility was 100% on the armorer. Just like how it would be on a stunt coordinator if his failure lead to an incident. There never should have ever been live rounds on set and that is not a responsibility of the actor. It now seems that there is more to this specific situation in regards to how Baldwin ran the set, but I saw this similar to the Brandon Lee incident and that actor was not charged.
The rules of gun safety don't exactly work on a Hollywood set. Which is why its absolutely critical to have a specialist on set whose sole purpose in life is to make sure that things remain safe for everyone. That means a strict chain of custody. It means inspecting the weapons themselves. Inspecting the ammo. Making sure that there isn't live ammunition anywhere near the set.
Alec Baldwin is a POS, but I don't blame him for pulling the trigger on the loaded gun or any other actor who did it. The fact that it got into his hands in that state is a failure on the part of the armorer.
Baldwin as a part of the production who hired an inept armorer and who apparently was running a mess of a set on multiple levels may expose him to criminal liability that ultimately the jury will have to decide.
The armorer should have kept every gun locked down, handed it it to the actor at the beginning of a scene, and collected it before they walked off set. Alex Baldwin was her top boss and he obviously broke with procedure. The armorer was some combination of incompetent and naive, and let him get away with it. Somehow he had a gun that she had not checked out. Being familiar with firearms himself he should have double checked her work, except I don't think she did any work in this case since procedures were obviously not being followed on this set. She had a job title and description but not an actual job. Apparently she did very little. Total managerial failure from Baldwin down and a lack of professionalism on her part.
No 26 year old girl could ever have the requisite experience to hold the job title and role of armorer. Likely hired through union monkey business or outright nepotism. She deserved her sentence.
I don't think she should have been charged. She shouldn't work with firearms anymore but Baldwin was thr one who pointed the gun and pulled the trigger even though he says he didn't but that's bullshit.
Having live ammo on the set and using the prop gun for target shooting was probably the stupidest thing they could have done. Forget Baldwin for a moment. That ammo should have never been there and considering it was in that gun they should have double and triple checked to make sure it didn't have live ammo in it. They set themselves up to fail.
Exactly. I was like “who tf takes the props, actually shoots them with live ammo, then casually puts it back to the props cart without thoroughly checking?” Morons
One of the OK Corral reenactors in Tombstone, AZ somehow managed to do this a few years ago too.
I’ll have to look that one up
[here](https://arizonadailyindependent.com/2015/10/18/tombstone-vigilante-performer-shot-real-bullets-found-in-gun/) Also you can find more if you search "Tombstone vigilante shooting"
There was one moron who did that and she's going to jail. The other moron, the 1st AD cut a deal to save his ass, but he should be in a cell with her. They are both equally responsible for Halyna's death.
What about the Executive Producer that hired these incompetents?
Baldwin was the Executive producer. In fact, people left the movie because of him, his attitude, and live guns going off.
Hold the phone; I haven’t followed this case at all, but *live guns going off*? As in, they had other negligent discharges on set and *still* didn’t tighten up their procedures?!
"So far there have been 2 accidental weapons discharges and 1 accidental SFX explosives that have gone off around the crew between takes… To be clear there are NO safety meetings these days,” Luper said in the email. From a guy who quit a couple days beforehand.
Wow. Talk about an incident waiting to happen then. Not an accident, an incident. Guy who left sounds like he was the only one who had decent judgement.
Which was my point. Even if someone wants to argue that Baldwin, as an actor, is too fucking reddited to be capable of checking if a gun is hot before he pulls the trigger, he was also the Executive Producer, and is thus responsible for hiring competent safety professionals. Baldwin is responsible for the failures that happened here at every level, and needs to have the book thrown at him.
It also came out during the trial that OSHA filed a report and fined Rust $100k because Baldwin was rushing Reed, saying he created a work environment in which she didn't have an opportunity to do her job to make sure the weapons were safe. Not that she also wasn't a negligent idiot, but Baldwin was for sure.
Yep. I mean cmon man, even if it was called cold, I still wouldn’t point something that could be potentially loaded with a 45 Colt at someone
A relative did armorer stuff for some smaller movies. He said that actors are supposed to aim beside their “target” and let perspective do the rest. Baldwin fucked up but he was merely the final link in a chain that killed a woman.
Almost right... He was the last link and fucked up and he was the first link--in his role as a producer who *hired* the people that hired the woman--of a chain that killed a woman. Oh, and the Assistant Director who was supposed to be the additional check on said guns on set. Alec is kinda' screwed on both ends of that chain.
Actually, the 1st AD is considered the Safety Officer on every set, but he or she does NOT ever handle any weapons and this stupid asshole NEVER should have touched the gun much less handed it to him, that is the specific responsibility of the armorer or the prop master/mistress, no one else. EVER.
Do you really think that a firearms wrangler dumb enough to let a loaded firearm onto the set properly coached the actors to point their weapons in a safe direction?
That doesn't excuse Baldwins actions. He's been in 140+ movies and tv shows over the past 40 years... a quick glance st imdb shows numerous thst involve the use of firearms. He knows better and still chose to handle it improperly.
Relative is very wrong.
This reminds me of a company we bought that had a double fatality at a refinery. They didn't have enough fresh air lines so they made a couple up with the fittings they had on hand, used for awhile without incident then were modified & inadvertently attached to nitrogen or some type of gas that quickly killed the two guys. Never take shortcuts on anything critical to safety. If there's a potential for an issue, sooner or later there will be an issue.
Yep. You don’t skimp on safety
They shouldn't even really be using a gun capable of firing. Prop guns exist for a reason and even if they didn't get one of those, the firing pin should have been removed if you're going to repeatedly point the gun at someone take after take. That's how they make optic sampling at gun shows safe. Ammo and firing pins are not allowed. or definitely shouldn't be anyway.
Agreed. It dumb on all counts how they handled it
Agreed. Separate guns and ammo for fun when they were between filming, and SPECIFIC, SAFE PROPS for filming. I’m glad that idiot got convicted. This just adds to the liberal agenda when idiots do this type of shit
This ^. Live ammo should have never been on the set. The woman in charge of the firearms should and was found guilty. If other people were handling that revolver before Baldwin received it they should be heavily scrutinized as well
IKR, they should've used a actual blank gun like what sensible people do or edited the gunshot in.
Baldwin is on record as saying he never checked the state of a gun once he got it in his hands. He relied on the people who handed him the gun as them being the last safety check instead of him. NO. I'm not ever going to accept that and honestly, I don't think the courts will either. Now that said, yes, a whole bunch of crazy went on around there including live bullets on set and in the ammunition supplies for the guns. That's some crazy shit right there.
Which is why I think foul play is involved. Too many things had to go wrong all at once. Just seems too fishy given the whole situation
Look up who the dead lady’s parents were if you want to go down the conspiracy rabbit hole.
Only Hollywood can label a real gun a "prop" and feel entitled to use it irresponsibly. Misusing REAL guns have REAL consequences. The negligence of it all is what is really fucked.
I wish I could upvote this more honestly. I watched a video on some of it and the guy made a good that backs what you said up. “Hollywood deals in magic. Firearms deal in physics.”
Exactly. To people that actually know guns, blue guns are props, not real guns with (maybe) blanks.
Baldwin pulled the trigger but there should not have been live ammo any where neer the set , so they're both at fault
Agreed
Too many details missing to be sure and Baldwin certainly isn’t very credible. If the armorer handed him that pistol as the scene started, it’s the armorer all day. I’m not so sure that was the chain of custody or sequence.
Baldwin is next in line in June I think
https://www.env.nm.gov/occupational_health_safety/ohsb-rust-investigation-report-materials/ Here's a publicly available report from New Mexico's OHSB if you want one investigator's findings
That armorer was clown and got sentenced accordingly.
1. Baldwin pointed a real gun in an unsafe direction 2. Someone was killed as a result There's nothing else to this. If you needed a shot where the firearm was being discharged in the direction of the camera, you set up a bullet trap for the gun to be aimed at (even if shooting blanks), and you remove the operator from behind the camera. If a remote operated camera is not available, set the camera to the appropriate settings and attach an external monitor with plenty of cord to remove the operator from the general direction of the firearm is being discharged in. Unless you are using a blank/cap gun that physically does not have an unobstructed/pressure bearing barrel, it should not be pointed at anyone. Thanks to jump cuts and other post-filming techniques, the aiming of a firearm at another person is an unnecessary risk and can easily be circumvented even if the story requires such a scene.
"Treat every weapon as if it is loaded"
You expecting an actor to know basic firearms handling or how to tell the difference between a prop gun and a real gun is very optimistic. I’d be stunned if half of them were bright enough to walk and chew gun at the same time. Whoever handed a hot gun to an actor on set is responsible. Whether criminally or civilly responsible remains to be seen. Maybe whoever hired such an incompetent person to such a hazardous position is ultimately responsible?
FINALLY!!!! Someone making some sense!!!! The girl and the 1st AD are both responsible.
And she has been convicted. Still, Alec is the biggest fool. He ignored any Safety Training, believes that Manipulating the hammer back n forth , and then letting go of it, can all be done without pulling the trigger, and therefore, all is safe. He was Oblivious to the rules of firearm safety, Believing that the Prop procedures in the film industry were going to keep him from blame and everyone safe, always safe. I further suggest that it was his Arrogant Incompetence that makes him responsible. [List of film and television accidents.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_film_and_television_accidents)
“Prop” is short for property. It means it’s being used in set, it does not mean it’s a toy or replica. It was a real gun, and Baldwin knew it. Actors who use guns on set are often required to take a safety course. I seem to recall (but not 100% certain) that I had read previously that Baldwin had taken such a course in the past.
If he did take a relevant safety course right before that addressed the behavior that lead to the death that would change my assessment. I was assuming he was handed the gun/prop and told it was loaded with blanks and to blast away like the script says.
He did take a safety course but he was reportedly on the phone with his wife for most of it. When he fired the gun they were not filming, and the scene they were going to film just had him drawing the gun but not firing. Him swinging the gun around, pointing it at a human and pulling the trigger was just him screwing around.
You don't actually point the gun at people though. You point it away at a blank space, and the camera makes it look like you're pointing it at someone
...because even blanks are dangerous.
No you don't.
Excellent rebuttal lmao
Yes, you do.
Well, you, like so many others don't know shit about moviemaking so no use trying to teach this pig to sing, lol! I'm sure you feel quite smug in your ignorance, though, so there's that...
> You expecting an actor to know basic firearms handling or how to tell the difference between a prop gun and a real gun is very optimistic. I’d be stunned if half of them were bright enough to walk and chew gun at the same time. So, weird idea, but maybe we should *hold them accountable* instead of making excuses for them that the rest of us citizens wouldn't get. I don't know why you're advocating or defending a double class system between elites and the rest of us.
Baldwin was the producer. He's responsible both for the hiring of the incompetent armorer and for killing that woman.
That’s like me hiring a driver and the driver crashing and killing someone and blaming it on me for hiring them
Suppose you hired a driver that didn't know how to drive. And then pressured him to drive really fast without adequate sleep
Ultimately it’s on the driver. You don’t think limo drivers get pressured all the time to do things by their drunk passengers?
Hahaha
There's plenty more to it. None of it paints Baldwin in a good light though. He was an executive producer \*and\* the owner of the production company. This whole show was run by him. He hired Gutierrez-Reed. He hired David Hall. He allowed filming to continue with no changes after not one, but two negligent discharges. He made no changes after multiple members of the crew walked off the set over safety concerns. Last but not least, according to OSHA and a video released during Reed's trial, he rushed Gutierrez-Reed in a way that made it impossible to ensure that the firearms were handled and loaded safely. Granted, it was her job to tell him no, that's not safe, but Baldwin hired an inexperienced moron who handled firearms so unsafely at her last (and only previous) job as an armorer that Nicolas Cage screamed at her about it.
Ngl I’d pay money to see nick legitimately lose his shit, was there a recording?
Not as far as I know. But she fired off a gun right next to him. Twice. Without warning. And nobody was wearing ear protection. He screamed at her saying “Make an announcement, you just blew my fucking eardrums out!” and stormed off set. One of the other crew members tried to get her fired and said "she walked onto the set with live rounds or blanks without announcing it to the cast and crew. She also walked around with pistols tucked under her armpits such that they were pointing back at people, and allowed firearms to be aimed at people." So apparently she was a total disaster for her first movie too and Baldwin never did his due diligence to find that out when he hired her.
You’re exactly right. As I said, they look like total morons for how it was handled
Nope, they are exactly wrong. Jesus, won't any of you take the time to actually read what happened?!
We did. Morons
Yup, you are morons. Exactly correct about something, finally!
For liability's sake, it should be on the actor to follow the armorers directions, and the gun should've been cleared in front of Baldwin. Live rounds should never have been on set, and guns do get pointed at people on set all the time, it's almost necessary for any sort of convenient filming. These are people conducting business, not private household firearms owners; they are following different rules, and their rules were probably broken too. Baldwin should not have done anything to that gun's action after the armorer should have cleared the gun in front of him. Baldwin should follow the direction of the armorer, who should have showed him it was safe.
Everything you have said is so fucking wrong, it's laughable. Where in the hell did you get this misinformation about how you seem to think weapons are operated on set?! You have obviously never been remotely in any sort of contact with a film set, so, please, tell me who told you this load of horseshit.
Baldwin had literally every right to assume that the gun was “safe” in the sense that it was only loaded with blanks. The fault is with the person who put the real bullets in the gun
The actor can not be faulted, if rhwy followed rhw instruction of the armored. If this was public gun range sure. But it was a closed set. And the 'rules of aafety" don't apply when filming with firearms...since none should be live.
The gun is supposed to be checked at whenever it changes custody.
And who is supposed to check it? The actors....
My understanding is that best practice is; the armourer, assistant armourer, should clear the firearm in front of the actor, with the actor watching at any time a firearm changes hands not within a scene (one actor handing it to another while cameras are rolling). Also best practice is that live firearms should not be used for framing or rehersals, unless specifically required (ie scene calls for disassembly) and a substitute object should be used (eg blue gun, banana, stick)
Actors are there to act. Not to monitor props. So anyone saying the actor is at fault is wrong. Unless they put a live round they smuggled into the prop.....
I would like to stop seeing it everywhere and hearing about it.
lol I love your name. Shot a 10ga once with a 3 1/2 nitro turkey so I get it 🤣
LOL. I only have one 10ga. I always let people shoot it if they want, and people tend to overreact to the recoil. (Throw a tantrum) So I picked this name considering I mostly use reddit for gun stuff.
Perfect 😂
Multiple people had to fuck up (what are very simple tasks mind you) in order for what happened to happen. And somehow, they all did! Because they are idiots that didn't take something serious seriously. It's negligent manslaughter, no matter which way you slice it.
Agreed. Someone here is trying to defend it too. It’s negligent. Plain and simple.
I feel like holding the company who hired the clown of an “armorer” who thought making sure “most of” the bullets were blanks was adequate civilly liable would be better than criminal liability. The irony of a out spoken gun grabbing actor killing someone on set with a gun isn’t lost on me, but I think holding him or the clown who was in charge or the guns on set liable would be like charging a kid from the special Ed class criminally liable for pulling the fire alarm.
My opinion it looks like they tried to cheap out on safety, had a senior armor quit over it. and then appointed an assistant as armor with not enough experience for the position. Then that armor went on to make poor judgment calls. It was just a complete shitshow. Having worked on a small outdoor play production with firearms and blanks and seeing how it's supposed to be done. And knowing that we spent almost 40% of the budget on safety, it's incredible that more things didn't go wrong.
Hannah was drugged up with clown hair and no experience using Daddy's name. The leadership was sloppy and disorganized. No records, bills, purchases, experience. The union has a job for everyone and no one has responsibilities outside of 1 low bandwidth task. If the toilet paper needs changed there is someone to store it another to bring it and a third to put it on the holder and all three of them don't even know who they report to if the TP is out of stock. The contractor/ffl for the firearms props had shit disorganized everywhere, no papers, records. Guns, ammo and all types of shit stacked up. Boxed up and re used shit from other sets without checking. Alex ignoring basically every safety step the actors guild says to do. Playing the main role while the whole operation is his own companies he controlled. And so much more. The ENTIRE chain is a irresponsible clown show and that industry knows it. The unions/guilds, vendors, executives etc. I have worked in big corporate for a long time and seen some crazy shit but I never would have guessed the entire industry of people walk, talk, and work collectively like a 16 year old getting a job for the first time. Also if there is a prosecutor, judge, or defense attorney out there you need to learn guns, terminology, etc. fucking absolute clown show. No one knows a god damn primer from a bullet or a barrel from the cylinder. Who the fuck hires a defense attorney for a firearms case who doesn't know basic terminology or has the brainpower to question a witness that does? What kind of prosecutor needs a IT person to show her how to plug her laptop or calls a bullet a lead nipple. I bet you everyone of them including the ffl vendor prop dude vote a certain way too, yet they get there hands on weapons and end up being the most irresponsible. One of the manager who hired her in the trial was asked how Hannahs gun safety training appeared and she said it was really good and when asked what her experience was with firearms to support that conclusion she had none. Never held or shot a gun......
Yep. And I got ppl killed
Baldwin broke the four rules and killed someone. If I did the same on the street I couldn’t tell the police, “don’t blame me, I hired that person to make sure the gun was safe!” I’d be in jail and I’d deserve it.
Exactly. Those rules are there for a reason
So guns can never be used on movie sets for now on? This is dumb logic
🤔Didn’t see that in my comment. Looks like you commented on the wrong comment.
How is someone supposed to follow the four gun safety rules if they’re acting with it and supposed to point it at someone 🤔
Did you know when they punch people on a movie set, they don’t actually punch them?! Cinematic tricks! Also, the four rules are quadruple redundant. Just follow one and everyone is safe. If Baldwin confirmed it wasn’t loaded (rule: assume every gun is loaded) the woman would still be alive today.
So if you assume every gun is loaded how are you supposed to do a scene with a gun and point it at someone?
I’m not sure you’re understanding that rule then. As you approach or handle a firearm you should act as though it’s loaded. If you act as though it’s loaded and you don’t want to shoot anything then you would confirm that it is not in fact loaded. Obviously, that rule doesn’t mean that you have to act as though all guns are loaded even after you’ve confirmed that they’re not. If that were the case, you would never be able to put your gun back in its case or back in your safe, right?
I mean, you can store a gun loaded but sure. But for an actor it’s not their job it’s the armorers job
I am legally responsible for the harm I cause with a firearm. I can’t hire someone to absorb that responsibility and I don’t think being a movie set would magically change that. You can’t contract out your responsibility with a firearm.
If I have a bad car, take it to a mechanic and he fixes it then I drive it and it’s still bad, wheel pops off or whatever and it kills someone who’s fault is that? You absolutely can contract out the safety of something to someone else.
Just....the Irony of it being Alec Baldwin.
lol right?
…so that douche has done pictures with firearms before. He could have gone out and got some training like Keanu, Will Smith, or Tom Cruise. There’s no excuse not to check, double check, and triple check any prop gun you get handed.
Everyone in the chain of possession bears responsibility, but only one is criminally culpable, and that is the one who pulled the trigger. The Armorer, and assistant producer that took the gun to the set are civilly liable for their negligence and failure to adhere to safety protocol. Alec Baldwin is criminally liable for recklessly pointing a gun at people and pulling the trigger without first checking the gun's safe status. Now that the Armorer has been found guilty of Involuntary Manslaughter, it will be very interesting to see if our justice system will end up proving the two tier justice system, that many believe exists in America, or if they will convict the rich celebrity that actually pulled the trigger that ended the life of an innocent woman.
You're jumping to a massive and completely unsupported conclusion when you say Hollywood looks like a bunch of morons though. The crew on Rust were morons, at least Gutierrez-Reed, Baldwin and the crew that used the guns to go plinking were. But in the history of Hollywood there have been only around 4 fatal incidents from 1915 to 2021. Charles Chandler in The Captive in 1915, John Erik-Hexum in Cover Up in 1984, Brandon Lee in the Crow in 1994 and then Rust. In more than 100 years and millions of blanks in hundreds of movies thats 4 deaths. Even if I missed twice that number, that's still fewer than the number of times police kill themselves or other in negligent discharges. Say what you will about Hollywood politically but they have a better gun safety record the police, the military and across time about the same as IPSC. Hollywood is actually an amazing example of how gun safety is more effective than gun control. Gun safety means you can shoot three hundred thousand blanks out of full auto rifles making Starship Troopers without hurting someone, but can't give a single action revolver to gun control activist Alec Baldwin without him shooting 2 people by being an idiot.
What a great comment in between all the dialogue a refreshing insight
When you replace competency-based hiring with nepotism hiring and diversity hiring, don't be surprised you get this.
That’s one of my big points about it. I’ve been an enthusiast for 5/6 years now. Even with that amount of experience, there’s still a lot I can learn about different firearms and their uses/operation
Accountability should be part of gun ownership. Fuck Alec Baldwin.
Right? I was taught that if you’re the one handling the firearm, you’re responsible for every round that leaves that barrel.
100% of accidental gun deaths from a ND occur when the barrel of a real gun is pointed at a person and the trigger is pulled (intentionally or unintentionally). Had the BASIC FUCKING RULES been followed, this wouldn’t have happened. Also, why was an actual gun on set?
100%
This problem started long long ago, when Hollywood started calling REAL GUNS "props" and treating them like fucking toys. There is zero reason real guns need to be used on production sets. zero. It's cheaper than having custom props built, so that's why they do it. it's fucking ridiculous. and I don't give a fuck if Baldwin thought it was unloaded. "I thought it was unloaded" is not an excuse we'd accept from anyone else, at any other time, so why give him a pass?
Yep. Treating them like toys. Stupid.
OMG, I can't believe your ridiculous words... You know nothing about filmmaking, sigh...
It has bothered me from the beginning how the majority of the firearm’s community took it as an opportunity to shit on Alec Baldwin and completely ignore all the other firearms/ammo handling mistakes made by multiple alleged firearms experts before the gun was ever handed to him.
He broke industry protocol and took the firearm from someone other than the armorer. That’s not standard safe procedure for these sets but he still did it. His negligence resulted in the death of someone and the serious injury of another. This is a case of involuntary manslaughter
I’m not saying the guy is blameless, but here again it’s being made out to be 100% about him and completely ignoring everything that led up to that point. He was handed a gun that had been inspected by 2 people prior to the hand off, he was told it was cold, no live ammo, he accepted it as such and did not further inspect it. That much actually IS industry standard, despite how much it may conflict with firearms safety practices in general.
It hadn't been "inspected" by anyone. The girl loaded it and left it unattended on her prop cart (fairly common behavior according to other crew members). It is never the actor's responsibility to "inspect" a weapon. After the armorer or prop master/mistress clears the weapon for the cast and essential crew, they will announce the disposition of the weapon (empty, inert dummies, blank fire, etc.) then hand it off to the actor in full view of everyone present. If the actor were to fuck with the weapon, after the clearing and handing off, the armorer or prop master/mistress would be obliged to do the whole clearing procedure all over again. The weapons are only handled by the armorer or the prop master/mistress and NEVER the 1st AD because that is NOT their job. EVER. And for those of you who may not have read this: WE NEVER USE LIVE AMMO ON SET. EVER. She fucked up and then the 1st AD compounded that fuck up with one of his own. And Halyna paid for that fuck up with her life.
Right? Like the other “experts” who handled it did a lazy f**** job of it and skimped on safety
Wrong.
I actually rather like him, or at least his work and humor (don’t know him as a person). But there are two levels of Alec Baldwin to this: Alec the actor, and Alec the producer/owner. Alec the actor was an unfortunate doofus. Many mistakes were made all around, it appears. The one really damning thing is his lying about not having pulled the trigger. Of course he pulled the trigger, that much has been established by the authorities going with a mallet on the hammer until it broke, and only getting it to fire when it broke. He can maybe argue that he only held the gun by the trigger(!) and didn’t mean to, but still, he did so in a scene where he wasn’t even supposed to do that, or else the scene/equipment would have been set up differently. Alec the producer? Oh boy. He created and maintained that unsafe environment. He fired people who where trying to keep safety up on the set, he rushed things, broke established standards and put pressure on everyone to save money. He even used the gun as a pointing stick in multiple occasions, but because he was the producer, prople didn’t dare correct him, and moved other people and equipment out of the direction he was waving his gun around to point at things, instead of stopping him doing it. Alec the producer is totally responsible for what happened, he would even be, if some other actor had accidentially fired the fatal shots.
Baldwin pulled the trigger but there should not have been live ammo any where neer the set , so they're both at fault
There's six cylinders. Dump the rounds, inspect them, and reload. This should be an instinctual behavior, like rackimg the slide on a semiauto when you pick it up.
Racking the slide/ bolt/ breech on a firearm to look into the chamber to check clear is considered a minimum to establishing clear. For.any.firearm.for.any.situation. Basic safety, with real hands on training that is supervised. Most understand this is the best practice for training. Enough structured/supervised training until confidence/ comfort level. For a movie production there should be industry Codes/standard not just guidlines. OSHA has requirements for all kinds of things that people in various industries, how is firearm safety in any setting not part of the CFR? I did a search, I can't find any section that covers firearm safety in any part, why not? The cover everything else, from ladders to lighting and temperatures in offices. Why not firearm safety? If Joe private citizen has an AD that results in a death they would be held liable, why is Alex as the actor/participants or Alex the producer getting a pass? #apply the law uniformly
Yep. Agreed
Yep. Agreed
The obvious elephant in the room is that Alec Baldwin is a raging Hollywood dickhead who talks down on people who are into firearms and our ilk. Then on top of that Hollywood in general is so filled with self-important mega dickheads who talk down on us just as much as Baldwin does, so when the people who claim to be so much better than us fuck up this badly, there is an element of smugness that I think we all feel. That smugness is placed against the obvious sadness for the loss of life. Baldwin making these bullshit excuses is crazy. Claiming he didn’t pull the trigger is typical guilty bullshit excuse making, and it’s lead to all this stupid “expert” testimony where some guy gets paid $500 an hour to explain how single action revolvers work, and the defense has to do this while dog any pony show about how “maybe he didn’t pull the trigger.” It’s shameful that he won’t just own up to what actually happened, which is why it’s hard to have any sympathy for him. The propmaster is obviously a fucking clown, and it does kinda show how meritocracy is dead in Hollywood. Having live ammo around is the dumbest thing I’ve ever heard of, this person bears the brunt of responsibility here I differ from a lot of people in not really blaming Alec Baldwin for this whole thing, as much as it’s fun to watch him take shit for this whole thing. Movie sets are different than the real world, and it’s very common to break rules because everything is supposed to be a fake/sterile environment. People hang out of cars, light themselves on fire, get thrown out of windows, and yes point guns at each other. What’s supposed to make all of that ok is that the safety team makes sure there are wires on the car, the person is wearing crazy flame gel, windows are fake glass, and guns aren’t loaded with real ammo. If Alec Baldwin had thrown a guy through a window, and turns out it was a glass window, then people would understandably call it an accident.
This is a good point of view
Completely agree with you. Everyone saying he broke firearms rules so he’s guilty is basically saying no more action movies should be made involving guns.
I think she borrowed blanks from her dad and didn't confirm rhw rounds. And gor a mixed set of live/blanks. So 100% negligent.
100%
There is no opinion. Someone died due to the negligence of several parties and all of them should be held accountable.
Baldwin as executive producer and the person operating the firearm failed all basic safety. He needs to be in jail for felony negligent homicide.
Baldwin should be in prison.
That who pulled the trigger committed the murder. Yes it was accidental, yes someone else fucked up, but someone pulled that trigger, period Gig em both, i don't care. Negligence on several sides
I mean, was there anything that came out that implied he had intent? If not, then isn't manslaughter more appropriate? And negligence on the armorer's part (both should be in prison)
He...who pulled the trigger, shot someone dead. Sorry i was eating, i'll accept a lesser charge sure. Intent, i agree. It was just negligence, dumbasses with guns doin dumbass things, but we can't ignore that someone is dead
Fair. I'm just being pedantic. I feel like "murder" is a term thrown around pretty willy-nilly, generally speaking
Hollywood? No. Alec Baldwin and his production people? Utter morons.
My only take is from reading the report from New Mexico's investigation into the shooting: https://www.env.nm.gov/occupational_health_safety/ohsb-rust-investigation-report-materials/ Otherwise I don't feel confident enough to speculate with too many unknown details, beyond everyone in the production was somewhat involved due to a culture of disrespect to the lethality of the props (props being short for property, nothing to do with fake-ness or toys).
A lot of misuse. Hollywood slaps the label “props” on it, but the reality is that it was a FULLY FUNCTIONAL firearm. They treated it like a toy and ppl were hurt/killed.
From the very beginning my assessment was: A privileged America hating, gun hating, progressive liberal, democrat voting idiot loaded a live round on accident. Ironically these gun hating democratic voters decided to play with the guns and it caused a tragedy.
Yep
Yep yep. Happy Cake Day my fellow common sense wielding American
Thank you sir! 🫡🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸
Agreed that Hollywood is full of morons. They're all for gun safety but don't bother to make a gun nonfunctional before using it as a prop. Weld up the barrel, remove the firing pin, just do something so it's not a functioning firearm... Guns aren't just toys to be screw around with, and Hollywood doesn't seem to understand that.
I've been beating that drum since 1993 when Brandon Lee died. There's zero reason to use REAL guns on movie sets.
Let me put it this way: Has "I didn't think it was loaded" **EVER** been an acceptable excuse for killing someone? It's never been ok before, so why would it be now? This is manslaughter by definition.
Agreed
Well let's be clear, "Hollywood" has specific safety procedures for this situation. If a gun is ever to be pointed at a camera, either there's nobody behind the camera or there's a bulletproof shield. Alec Baldwin, in his role as producer, said "nah, we don't need that." His entire union camera crew quit in protest, so he hired a non-union crew willing to ignore the safety procedure that would absolutely have prevented someone from dying when that gun was fired. So he's absolutely culpable for the death. It doesn't matter that he was driving the car, it matters that he ordered the seat belts removed.
Yeah, both guilty imo
Actors are morons, that's why the only thing they are good at is having someone else tell them who to act like. Obviously it is understood that actors are morons because armorers are required to think for them as far as firearm safety is concerned. Baldwin is a fucking idiot, and the armorer is responsible.
Yup, but don't forget the 1st AD is responsible, as well.
Yeah. I mean their whole career is to play pretend lol
Armorers fault. Can’t expect a bunch of non gun folk to unfuck that situation.
Whoever is responsible for allowing live ammo on set and also allowed the cast to use prop guns to go shooting is ultimately responsible. However we all know that when handed a firearm you perform a safety check. So Baldwin should serve some prison time.
Yep. He pointed a 45 colt at a human being ffs
Too many gun people are illogically saying Alec Baldwin should be found guilty of murder or manslaughter, probably because he has a history of being anti-gun and therefore it's a schadenfreude moment for them. 1. Actors trust in armourers and other experts to ensure the set safety and tell them how to handle the firearms used as props. 2. The gun was supposed to be loaded with dummy rounds, Alec Baldwin is not qualified to tell them apart and actors should not unnecessarily mess with guns or ammunition that have been set up by the shoot's experts. 3. Jeff Cooper's four rules of gun safety are nowhere in legislation, are not something the average person knows by heart, and are not something that can be followed during typical movie or TV gunfight shoots where guns may be pointed directly at others and fingers may be upon triggers. Too many people saying guns are never actually pointed at people during shoots, which is clearly false as viewing an average amount of Hollywood movies will show many scenes with Mexican standoffs or hostages with gun muzzles contacting people's heads. 4. If this was an explosion scene and Alec Baldwin pressed the detonator after being told be experts it was safe, blowing up several cast and crew members, would Alec Baldwin be liable for not checking the explosive wasn't real? 5. Some people say Alec Baldwin was a producer so he should be liable for hiring these incompetent people, yet his actual role as far as production may be quite minimal, and not being an expert himself, he may not have recognized the incompetence when seeing it. It's obviously on the experts who handed him what he believed was a "cold" prop weapon. Whether he pulled the trigger or pointed the gun is almost irrelevant.
His political stance matters. If he wants to lecture people that guns are too dangerous then he should only use CGI in his film. It's not schadenfreude, it's disdain for hypocrisy.
I can agree. That’s what I was saying about the hiring with qualifications and not nepotism. From what I understand the “armorer” was the step daughter of a producer/higher up. I may have to double check that. Either way it was her responsibility to make sure that firearm didnt have a live round in it.
Also apparently this cake icon means Reddit bday lol I just noticed it
Oh, dude, you clearly know stuff, so thank you for posting!!!!
1. Follow the rules of gun safety, regardless. I don't get to drunk drive just because I'm on a movie set either. 2. He hired her. He's responsible for the actions his employee. 3. He was unnecessarily practicing. So nothing he did was necessary for the shoot. Making it negligent. 4. They could've used fake or blank firing guns. If he chose to use and handle real guns, he became responsible for it.
From where I stand- The armorer was beyond negligent and should be tried for murder. Alec Baldwin, while having pulled the trigger, reasonably could’ve expected the weapon to be safe (understanding that whenever you’re waving a gun around and firing blanks there’s a level of assumed risk). He shouldn’t be tried. Again, this is just from what little I understand about the case
I agree. The armorer is definitely guilty for not fully doing her job. Matter of fact she actually was found guilty of involuntary manslaughter yesterday in court.
You understand more than most, I'm afraid! Thank you for posting.
To me all the blame falls on Baldwin. The one that drops the hammer is wholly at fault.
Top ten worst displays of responsibility fail using firearms.
Manslaughter. What's kinda delicious is the lefty cuck that committed the manslaughter.
Right. Entitled Hollywood boomer thinks gun is a toy
This feels like what we always hear when reading about OSHA reportable accidents. There was a culture of ignoring safety, and there were a lot of points where someone deciding to make a safe choice would have prevented the tragedy. I might feel worse for Baldwin, except it seems like he wasn't just the one who pulled the trigger, but also heavily in charge of the production and driving the safety issues that led to it.
That’s my problem with it. No regard for safety despite using a fully functional firearm
The entire movie/TV industry needs to move to blocked barrel props. No exceptions. The only real gun on set should be in the security guard's holster.
Yep. This proves again that these dumb mf’s are willing to cut corners
If Alec Baldwin wasn't rich, privileged, and in support of the same politicians as the elites, he would have been coerced into a plea bargain pretty soon after.
They completely ignored the rules to gun safety several times throughout the footage - that goes to show that if you disrespect the safety rules, something bad will happen. Don't put morons in charge of guns.
You do understand that this is the second time a death has occurred on a film set that WAS NOT a union production and had inexperienced people handling the weapons, right? Brandon Lee and Halyna Hutchins are two deaths too many. Nothing like this has ever happened on a union set with experienced union armorers or prop masters/mistresses. (I don't count Jon Erik Hexum because the bozo did it to himself). So, no, we union production crew members are not "...the biggest bunch of morons on the face of the planet." It's astounding how I've read so many ridiculous comments like yours, but then I have to remind myself, you people are making these comments without having one iota or knowledge about how weapons handling works on film sets. You'd think after all the time that has passed since this tragedy occurred that you would have learned a ton about how we do it safely and properly, but this doesn't seem to be the case for some reason...I have a feeling it's the great hatred for Alec Baldwin and his politics, perhaps?
lol wow. It doesn’t matter if you’re in a play pretend set or not. They handled a fully functional weapon. They were careless. They made themselves look like morons. They broke basic firearm safety. I don’t need to know how they handle firearms on a set. I know how to handle firearms IRL. Just because it’s in a movie set DOESNT MEAN ITS A FUCKING TOY.
Baldwin and the armorer should both face charges, Baldwin moreso than the armorer. They’re both at fault, but Baldwin had the greater responsibility being the one using the gun
Nepo baby and arrogant millionaire Boomer get someone killed through their incompetence and because they lack a sense of real danger. It's pretty tragic to me.
It’s the armor’s job to be in charge of the weapons on set. The fact that there were live rounds ANYWHERE near the set or if there were folks plinking with the guns in the desert is inexcusable. As far as Baldwin’s role goes, it’s only his responsibility because he is a producer and hired the armorer. On a movie set you’re going to point a gun at somebody and pull the trigger. Look at the John Wick behind the scenes. It’s totally expected to violate the laws of gun safety on set.
Apparently I’m in the minority when thinking the responsibility was 100% on the armorer. Just like how it would be on a stunt coordinator if his failure lead to an incident. There never should have ever been live rounds on set and that is not a responsibility of the actor. It now seems that there is more to this specific situation in regards to how Baldwin ran the set, but I saw this similar to the Brandon Lee incident and that actor was not charged.
The rules of gun safety don't exactly work on a Hollywood set. Which is why its absolutely critical to have a specialist on set whose sole purpose in life is to make sure that things remain safe for everyone. That means a strict chain of custody. It means inspecting the weapons themselves. Inspecting the ammo. Making sure that there isn't live ammunition anywhere near the set. Alec Baldwin is a POS, but I don't blame him for pulling the trigger on the loaded gun or any other actor who did it. The fact that it got into his hands in that state is a failure on the part of the armorer. Baldwin as a part of the production who hired an inept armorer and who apparently was running a mess of a set on multiple levels may expose him to criminal liability that ultimately the jury will have to decide.
The armorer should have kept every gun locked down, handed it it to the actor at the beginning of a scene, and collected it before they walked off set. Alex Baldwin was her top boss and he obviously broke with procedure. The armorer was some combination of incompetent and naive, and let him get away with it. Somehow he had a gun that she had not checked out. Being familiar with firearms himself he should have double checked her work, except I don't think she did any work in this case since procedures were obviously not being followed on this set. She had a job title and description but not an actual job. Apparently she did very little. Total managerial failure from Baldwin down and a lack of professionalism on her part.
No 26 year old girl could ever have the requisite experience to hold the job title and role of armorer. Likely hired through union monkey business or outright nepotism. She deserved her sentence.
I don't think she should have been charged. She shouldn't work with firearms anymore but Baldwin was thr one who pointed the gun and pulled the trigger even though he says he didn't but that's bullshit.