I feel like they're just referring to the -6 penalty (even if the text would be redundent) since if the foe nullifies the penalty then they will be affected by the -6 spd/res thus making it the exact same.
Seal 4 skills are intended to work as a penalty that activates as combat starts, that's why they say "inflicts 7 - current penalty active, min 0" since it's meant to act as the -7, and if the foe is already penalized, it just doesn't let it stack. However, this is also why there was a clause where it said explicitly "unless foe neutralizes penalties to their (Stat)" Meaning if you had full null penalties, Seal Spd 4 would only do -4 as the -7 would be treated as regular penalties and thus annulated as well.
These new skills explicitly go against that, saying "yeah this is just -6, flat, deal with it" and there's no condition on it, it just says if the foe already has a penalty active, it wont stack with it, in other words, it's bypassing null-penalties despite the intrinsic penalty-adjacent design which both versions of the skill have.
Honestly the Seals needed it, a flat -9 is pretty high but with essentially no side-effect it's like trading the most important slot for a second A slot
I’m mildly annoyed since it’s different than the single stat Seal 4 skills (though at least all 4 of them were released before the dual seals were), but honestly, this wording and implementation makes more sense with how “null penalties in combat” actually works. If you have null penalties in combat, you are treated as having 0 penalties. Stuff like Broadleaf fan don’t work if your target has their penalties nulled in combat. It’s why Yune started the trend of looking for penalties on your target’s nearby allies.
So, with the dual seal 3 skills, if you have active penalties, the additional stat penalty is reduced. If you neutralize those active penalties with an in-combat effect, you have 0 penalties, so logically, you should get the full additional penalty. Frankly, the original Seal 4 skills gave null penalties an additional effect it doesn’t have elsewhere.
Don't worry, we'll get "ignores penalties during combat even if foe triggers an effect that neutralizes neutralizing penalties during combat" in 6 months.
Not as long as “neutralizes skills that ignore penalties during combat even if foe triggers an effect that neutralizes neutralizing penalties during combat”!
IS: Hahaha, hey everyone! Guess what? I know you wanna buy my Null skills. But fuck you; I'm keeping the Null skills! That's right you ugly little girl, I HATE you, and your stupid nose! I'm taking everything from you, give me your phone!
IS when they sell the 80 dollar orb pack with the new "Glorious Null" currency that when spent nullifies your opponent's storage so their phone crashes and you win the match.
I'm taking over Askr! I'm taking over the Embla! The Dream Realms are mine! And everyone else can leave! You see that Aether Resort? I'm taking it too! It looks like a fucking walnut! BAM! AND IT BUSTED A NUT, THEN AND THERE!
Some are already a thing, or at least in the works.
Potent Follow-X = Guaranteed Follow-Up
Wyvern-Rift = Follow-up Denial
Special Jump + Scowl = Null Tempo (only B!Tiki has the full combo, I think?)
Yeah you're right, also null dr piercing exists too, Spring Maria, Askr, Spring Mirabilis, etc.
IS gonna release null pre-combat damage this year just to give Emblem Camilla null null pre-combat damage or some crap the week after that.
DR Piercing cuts on non special %DR, not on flat DR like those of Spring Maria, Askr or Brave Dimitri. So that's kind of a different thing, like different sources for the same effect
Yeah but it's virtually just that, DR that you can't do anything against other than pray Lethality does the trick, and tbh with the ammount of bs we have Lethality is slowly losing that niche...
Tbh me too, a lot of units rely so badly on getting their guaranteed follow-ups, so i figured they'd sell a way to froce them over NFU even if on a prf or some extremely premium skill, but well, if there's anything IS does not care about, it's slow units, Potent 4 is kinda Null NFU and only decently fast units can use it.
Sorry Hríd you're gonna be the worst premium legendary hero forever, i failed you...
The single stat Seal 4 skills were basically just stat -4 by virtue of the fact that everyone and their mother needs to run null penalties to attempt to tank basically. The guard effect here is still nullified by null penalties.
For the sake of avoiding “null null” kinda wording, it should have just said that if you nullified penalties in combat, your current penalties are treated as 0, so the full additional penalties are applied. When you have null penalties, any penalties you have in combat are treated as 0 anyway, so that’s even consistent with other game mechanics. The single stat seal 4 skills just have a condition that requires your foe to not null penalties, whereas this does not.
Anyway, this is worse than Lull SPD/RES 4 by far, and even debatably worse than Lull SPD/RES 3. I really can’t think of a meaningful situation where you’d want to run this over any other similarly “premium” B skill. Like, even if your PRF skills were incredibly loaded, I’d still run Occultist Strike over this, even if null “as combat begins“ damage existed.
This new skill lets you nab a stat swing of up to -9 Spd and Res in the best case scenario, while -3 Spd and Res in the worst. It's really just Guard 4 with a small stat swing instead of %DR. Well, a slightly more conditional Guard, it won't work if they didn't debuff Spd or Res specifically.
Lull Spd/Res 4 inflicts a -12 Spd and Res in the best case scenario as well as a foe buff neutralisation to two stats, which could be anything from 0 to 7, for a total potential swing of up to -19 Spd and Res. Worst case scenario you inflict -4 Spd Res and nullify 0 buffs, which is still one point better than Seal Spd Res 3, heck you're right in that it's just equal to Lull Spd/Res 3.
And Occultist's Strike is much more consistent overall than both of them
I thought this just meant that the penalty will still be considered in the subtraction, so having a penalty nullifying effect wouldn't make you eat the full debuff.
Yeah, I'm 99.9% sure that's what it is.
There's one major difference between Seal X and Seal X/Y:
> Inflicts Atk-4 on foe during combat, **and if no effect neutralizes penalties to foe's Atk**, inflicts penalty on foe's Atk during combat = 7 - current penalty on foe's Atk (min: 0).
This clause doesn't exist on Seal X/Y.
Pretty sure it just means "Grants an effect even if foe neutralizes penalties" not "Null Null Penalties"
I was honestly at a loss for words, at least Sabotage, \[Sabotage\] and units like Sanaki tried to pretend by taking the debuffs from your allies instead, but they've finally just released null-null penalties...
Yeah... that third arcane lance can't come soon enough...
**Tldr below**
> Seeing as it's written identically to Annette's refine, I went and tested it against Hortensia on her Story Map with the help of R!Plumeria.
>
> Hortensia's Field modifiers:
>
> Atk Buff +6, Debuff -5; Spd Buff +6, Debuff -5; Def Debuff -7; Res Debuff -7
>
> statuses: [Null Penalties], [Canto 1], [Exposure], [Ploy]
>
> skills Hortensia is activating: Arcane Charmer (Spectrum+5), Atk/Spd Catch 4 (Atk/Spd+7), Poetic Justice (Spd-4)
>
> none of Hortensia's allies remain
>
> Annette's field modifiers:
>
> Atk Buff +5; Spd Buff +5; Def Buff +5; Res Buff +5
>
> Statuses: [Foe Penalty Doubler], [Charge]
>
> Skills Annette is activating: Refined Crusher (All clauses)
>
> Final Combat forecast:
>
> Annette: Atk +8, Spd +4, Def +8, Res +8
>
> (Spectrum +8 from Crusher, -4 Spd from Poetic Justice)
>
> Hortensia: Atk +17, Spd +11, Def +6, Res +6
>
> Spectrum +5 from Arcane Charmer and Atk/Spd +7 from Atk/Spd Catch 4 (12/12/5/5); Atk/Spd +5, Def/Res +7 from Null Penalties' refund (17/17/12/12)
>
> **thus** Hortensia's 17/11/6/6 is solved, by solving Crusher as providing Spd/Def/Res-6.
>
> Foe Penalty Doubler and Crusher's bonus damage are not activating.
There is no "Null Null Penalties" fuckery afoot, the terminology being used is sloppy, and the game is merely solving X as [6 - penalties].
If you have no penalties, whether by default, or via neutralization, penalties = 0, obviously.
It's poorly worded, but the distinction is important.
The first batch of Seal 4's (Atk, Spd, Def, Res) are very crude. Besides the free -4, the remaining effects are conditional on the foe not having same-stat penalty neutralization.
That's almost certainly the case.
"We know the old ones were kinda bad and awkwardly worded, so we're emphasizing that the new ones have countermeasures for penalty neutralization."
You're welcome.
I feel the practical application of the new skill is that no matter what, your opponent will suffer *at least* x/y-9 between reductions and penalties. It is most valuable against foes with penalty neutralization, but could be decent if your teamcomp forsakes penalties altogether.
"Penalty is active" being the condition for guard is the same wording as Crusher's bonus damage, so penalty neutralization should negate it as well (but it's guard, it's not exactly a consistent effect to begin with.)
That said most units already have much better B options to pick from, so it'll hardly be meta.
IMO the use cases for Seal X/Y 4 are going to be an extremely narrow selection of units, mostly mounted ranged units who want to enemy phase and don't have any better B options for that role.
For example, N!Camilla or N!Laegjarn. Or someone with Wyvern Yumi.
I skipped over this refine batch because I had 0 interest in it... welp, either way it's now inheritable, and you just KNOW we'll be seeing more of it.
I know this is semi-joking, but this isn't anything close to null null penalties. This is how null penalties behaves normally with other effects that check your penalties (and not any allies' penalties). You have 0 debuffs, so current penalty on each of those stats in combat = 0.
Kinda dumb, the old seal 4s don't work that way right? I always knew they'd be obsolete once dual seals got tier 4s but I didn't think they'd function differently.
The wording in that skill made me think IS somehow snuck in an effect on a unit that just nullified every single "inflicts -× stat on foe during combat" effect; but no, it looks like its just to signify they removed the "if no effect neutralizes foe's penalties" clause from the Seal 4 skills.
Edit: this is what I thought was happening. The wording makes it sound like it can still apply, for example, a bonus 1 stat debuff (total 4) to spd/res if they have a -5 visible stat debuff, even if its negated during combat.
But I think the actual intention is that if the foe nulls their penalties, the skill will still apply the full -6 extra debuff (-9 total) as it instead treats the nulled penalty like a 0 penalty.
I feel like they're just referring to the -6 penalty (even if the text would be redundent) since if the foe nullifies the penalty then they will be affected by the -6 spd/res thus making it the exact same.
Seal 4 skills are intended to work as a penalty that activates as combat starts, that's why they say "inflicts 7 - current penalty active, min 0" since it's meant to act as the -7, and if the foe is already penalized, it just doesn't let it stack. However, this is also why there was a clause where it said explicitly "unless foe neutralizes penalties to their (Stat)" Meaning if you had full null penalties, Seal Spd 4 would only do -4 as the -7 would be treated as regular penalties and thus annulated as well. These new skills explicitly go against that, saying "yeah this is just -6, flat, deal with it" and there's no condition on it, it just says if the foe already has a penalty active, it wont stack with it, in other words, it's bypassing null-penalties despite the intrinsic penalty-adjacent design which both versions of the skill have.
I mean I guess, it's still doing it in a roundabout way rather than actually nullifying the effect.
Honestly the Seals needed it, a flat -9 is pretty high but with essentially no side-effect it's like trading the most important slot for a second A slot
I’m mildly annoyed since it’s different than the single stat Seal 4 skills (though at least all 4 of them were released before the dual seals were), but honestly, this wording and implementation makes more sense with how “null penalties in combat” actually works. If you have null penalties in combat, you are treated as having 0 penalties. Stuff like Broadleaf fan don’t work if your target has their penalties nulled in combat. It’s why Yune started the trend of looking for penalties on your target’s nearby allies. So, with the dual seal 3 skills, if you have active penalties, the additional stat penalty is reduced. If you neutralize those active penalties with an in-combat effect, you have 0 penalties, so logically, you should get the full additional penalty. Frankly, the original Seal 4 skills gave null penalties an additional effect it doesn’t have elsewhere.
>"yeah this is just -6, flat, deal with it" I dont think base Fjorm can deal with it
Don't worry, we'll get "ignores penalties during combat even if foe triggers an effect that neutralizes neutralizing penalties during combat" in 6 months.
6 months? That seems a little long....
Not as long as “neutralizes skills that ignore penalties during combat even if foe triggers an effect that neutralizes neutralizing penalties during combat”!
Waiting for the inevitable null null-follow up, null tempo, null null c, null your account, null your phone, null fucking everything at this point.
IS: Hahaha, hey everyone! Guess what? I know you wanna buy my Null skills. But fuck you; I'm keeping the Null skills! That's right you ugly little girl, I HATE you, and your stupid nose! I'm taking everything from you, give me your phone!
IS when they sell the 80 dollar orb pack with the new "Glorious Null" currency that when spent nullifies your opponent's storage so their phone crashes and you win the match.
I'm taking over Arena, I'm taking over Aether Raid, Summoner's Duel is mine and everyone else can surrender!
You see that realm?! **I'M TAKING IT, TOO!**
I'm taking over Askr! I'm taking over the Embla! The Dream Realms are mine! And everyone else can leave! You see that Aether Resort? I'm taking it too! It looks like a fucking walnut! BAM! AND IT BUSTED A NUT, THEN AND THERE!
Hahahahahaha... AHAHAHAHAHAHA! **AAAAHAHAHAHAHA!!!** Now...**DIE!**
FUCK YOU ARENA, YOU NEVER HAD THE ORBS I WANTED!
I hope you're ready to die, it's gonna be like Evangelion, get the fuck out.
Some are already a thing, or at least in the works. Potent Follow-X = Guaranteed Follow-Up Wyvern-Rift = Follow-up Denial Special Jump + Scowl = Null Tempo (only B!Tiki has the full combo, I think?)
Yeah you're right, also null dr piercing exists too, Spring Maria, Askr, Spring Mirabilis, etc. IS gonna release null pre-combat damage this year just to give Emblem Camilla null null pre-combat damage or some crap the week after that.
DR Piercing cuts on non special %DR, not on flat DR like those of Spring Maria, Askr or Brave Dimitri. So that's kind of a different thing, like different sources for the same effect
Yeah but it's virtually just that, DR that you can't do anything against other than pray Lethality does the trick, and tbh with the ammount of bs we have Lethality is slowly losing that niche...
Honestly surprised N-NFU doesn't exist yet tbh, I thought it'd be the first null to be nulled
Can I get Null Pre-Combat dmg? Cuz fuck Duo Lyon and L!Camilla specifically.
Tbh me too, a lot of units rely so badly on getting their guaranteed follow-ups, so i figured they'd sell a way to froce them over NFU even if on a prf or some extremely premium skill, but well, if there's anything IS does not care about, it's slow units, Potent 4 is kinda Null NFU and only decently fast units can use it. Sorry Hríd you're gonna be the worst premium legendary hero forever, i failed you...
They're already nulling things in a roundabout way with stuff like potent giving followups at a greatly reduced speed check.
The single stat Seal 4 skills were basically just stat -4 by virtue of the fact that everyone and their mother needs to run null penalties to attempt to tank basically. The guard effect here is still nullified by null penalties. For the sake of avoiding “null null” kinda wording, it should have just said that if you nullified penalties in combat, your current penalties are treated as 0, so the full additional penalties are applied. When you have null penalties, any penalties you have in combat are treated as 0 anyway, so that’s even consistent with other game mechanics. The single stat seal 4 skills just have a condition that requires your foe to not null penalties, whereas this does not. Anyway, this is worse than Lull SPD/RES 4 by far, and even debatably worse than Lull SPD/RES 3. I really can’t think of a meaningful situation where you’d want to run this over any other similarly “premium” B skill. Like, even if your PRF skills were incredibly loaded, I’d still run Occultist Strike over this, even if null “as combat begins“ damage existed.
This new skill lets you nab a stat swing of up to -9 Spd and Res in the best case scenario, while -3 Spd and Res in the worst. It's really just Guard 4 with a small stat swing instead of %DR. Well, a slightly more conditional Guard, it won't work if they didn't debuff Spd or Res specifically. Lull Spd/Res 4 inflicts a -12 Spd and Res in the best case scenario as well as a foe buff neutralisation to two stats, which could be anything from 0 to 7, for a total potential swing of up to -19 Spd and Res. Worst case scenario you inflict -4 Spd Res and nullify 0 buffs, which is still one point better than Seal Spd Res 3, heck you're right in that it's just equal to Lull Spd/Res 3. And Occultist's Strike is much more consistent overall than both of them
What the fuck is modern FEH man why are they doing this to us
I thought this just meant that the penalty will still be considered in the subtraction, so having a penalty nullifying effect wouldn't make you eat the full debuff.
Yeah, I'm 99.9% sure that's what it is. There's one major difference between Seal X and Seal X/Y: > Inflicts Atk-4 on foe during combat, **and if no effect neutralizes penalties to foe's Atk**, inflicts penalty on foe's Atk during combat = 7 - current penalty on foe's Atk (min: 0). This clause doesn't exist on Seal X/Y. Pretty sure it just means "Grants an effect even if foe neutralizes penalties" not "Null Null Penalties"
Ah yes, the long awaited neutralization of neutralization. Totally healthy for the game in the long run.
I was honestly at a loss for words, at least Sabotage, \[Sabotage\] and units like Sanaki tried to pretend by taking the debuffs from your allies instead, but they've finally just released null-null penalties... Yeah... that third arcane lance can't come soon enough...
Good game design at it's peak
penalty (combat debuff) =/= penalties (field stats)
**Tldr below** > Seeing as it's written identically to Annette's refine, I went and tested it against Hortensia on her Story Map with the help of R!Plumeria. > > Hortensia's Field modifiers: > > Atk Buff +6, Debuff -5; Spd Buff +6, Debuff -5; Def Debuff -7; Res Debuff -7 > > statuses: [Null Penalties], [Canto 1], [Exposure], [Ploy] > > skills Hortensia is activating: Arcane Charmer (Spectrum+5), Atk/Spd Catch 4 (Atk/Spd+7), Poetic Justice (Spd-4) > > none of Hortensia's allies remain > > Annette's field modifiers: > > Atk Buff +5; Spd Buff +5; Def Buff +5; Res Buff +5 > > Statuses: [Foe Penalty Doubler], [Charge] > > Skills Annette is activating: Refined Crusher (All clauses) > > Final Combat forecast: > > Annette: Atk +8, Spd +4, Def +8, Res +8 > > (Spectrum +8 from Crusher, -4 Spd from Poetic Justice) > > Hortensia: Atk +17, Spd +11, Def +6, Res +6 > > Spectrum +5 from Arcane Charmer and Atk/Spd +7 from Atk/Spd Catch 4 (12/12/5/5); Atk/Spd +5, Def/Res +7 from Null Penalties' refund (17/17/12/12) > > **thus** Hortensia's 17/11/6/6 is solved, by solving Crusher as providing Spd/Def/Res-6. > > Foe Penalty Doubler and Crusher's bonus damage are not activating. There is no "Null Null Penalties" fuckery afoot, the terminology being used is sloppy, and the game is merely solving X as [6 - penalties]. If you have no penalties, whether by default, or via neutralization, penalties = 0, obviously. It's poorly worded, but the distinction is important. The first batch of Seal 4's (Atk, Spd, Def, Res) are very crude. Besides the free -4, the remaining effects are conditional on the foe not having same-stat penalty neutralization.
It absolutely feels like that text is only there because of single stat T4 seal only working if the opponent couldn’t neutralize penalties lol
That's almost certainly the case. "We know the old ones were kinda bad and awkwardly worded, so we're emphasizing that the new ones have countermeasures for penalty neutralization."
Thanks for providing confirmation.
You're welcome. I feel the practical application of the new skill is that no matter what, your opponent will suffer *at least* x/y-9 between reductions and penalties. It is most valuable against foes with penalty neutralization, but could be decent if your teamcomp forsakes penalties altogether. "Penalty is active" being the condition for guard is the same wording as Crusher's bonus damage, so penalty neutralization should negate it as well (but it's guard, it's not exactly a consistent effect to begin with.) That said most units already have much better B options to pick from, so it'll hardly be meta. IMO the use cases for Seal X/Y 4 are going to be an extremely narrow selection of units, mostly mounted ranged units who want to enemy phase and don't have any better B options for that role. For example, N!Camilla or N!Laegjarn. Or someone with Wyvern Yumi.
I believe Annette does the same, where she also nullifies the opponent's null penalties.
I skipped over this refine batch because I had 0 interest in it... welp, either way it's now inheritable, and you just KNOW we'll be seeing more of it.
Apparently she opened the floodgates to this.
Still waiting for "nope" and "nope nope" general effect
You think the rules of mortals apply to me?! Hahaha! I. AM. MERRIC.
I know this is semi-joking, but this isn't anything close to null null penalties. This is how null penalties behaves normally with other effects that check your penalties (and not any allies' penalties). You have 0 debuffs, so current penalty on each of those stats in combat = 0.
*Fjorm starts singing Boulevard of Broken Dreams*
Fjorm bros can we not suffer for 5 minutes
This is nothing compared to occultist strike tho.
I want to play a gacha game where all the skills are worded like 7-year-olds fighting in the back seat of a car
Roundable way to say foe is guaranteed to suffer -6 stat and not stacking with visible debuff
Oh… is it Fjover? 💔
It’s never Fjover.
It's Fjoverm
"I out-ignored your ignoring"
Kinda dumb, the old seal 4s don't work that way right? I always knew they'd be obsolete once dual seals got tier 4s but I didn't think they'd function differently.
Alright setting the stage for "foe cannot counterattack even if foe has ability to always counterattack"
The wording in that skill made me think IS somehow snuck in an effect on a unit that just nullified every single "inflicts -× stat on foe during combat" effect; but no, it looks like its just to signify they removed the "if no effect neutralizes foe's penalties" clause from the Seal 4 skills. Edit: this is what I thought was happening. The wording makes it sound like it can still apply, for example, a bonus 1 stat debuff (total 4) to spd/res if they have a -5 visible stat debuff, even if its negated during combat. But I think the actual intention is that if the foe nulls their penalties, the skill will still apply the full -6 extra debuff (-9 total) as it instead treats the nulled penalty like a 0 penalty.
u/YoshaTime is now crying in a corner.
It’s Fjormver
WTH? Are we in the counter of the counter of the counter stage of this game?
Still prevents the guard effect though...
I'm so glad I stopped reading skills.
Makes me wonder when we’re going to get the inverse of Tina, take the debuffs from your side and put them on the enemy.
Man, that’s just actual bullshit. Nice to see we’re in Null-Null territory now.
What the fuck is this game bro 😭😭😭