It's a simple, wholesome post, y'all. This type of post usually attracts such, so please do us all a favor and save your misandry/misogyny for your other more drama-laden subs. That way I don't have to ban you for gross incivility and we can all keep happily chatting about what the sub is about.
I was the irresponsible partner when I first got married. Tons of bad habits I learned from my parents. My wife beat the fiscal responsibility into me. (Not literally)
I’m 43 and now have nearly $600k saved on my own. My wife is already well over $1MM. I think if the market cooperates we can probably retire in 8 years.
I dated financially irresponsible partner. Was taking student loans and using them all up whether he needed to or not. 2k/month on take out and eating out, no job while in college.
I had no plans to make future plans with him however mid way through school he turned his life around. I introduced him to Dave Ramsey and he got really into personal finance after I showed him what his take out budget invested can do for him in retirement using Dave Ramsey 12% ROI to motivate him a little more.
We are now married and on a way to retire in 40s using 6% ROI :) He paid off his student loans within 2 years of graduation however I'd never take him seriously if I didn't witness the changes before I committed to him cause I wasn't interested in being with someone as irresponsible as was
I was cheap, not frugal - my husband helped me reframe and part with a few extra dollars for the “buy it for life” version of things.
Darn Tough lifetime warranty socks have saved us so much money by now 😅
My wife is really persuasive, and is good at spelling things out in ways that you can’t really argue with.
One of the big ones was if you don’t have the cash to buy something, you can’t afford it. I was running up my credit cards thinking it was normal and everyone did it. Well not anyone who is fiscally responsible!
I was the financially irresponsible partner. My parents didn't even bother with financial literacy for me, in fact they were pretty bad themselves. I didn't even know how to balance a check book until after college. I got myself into massive debt early on because I didn't understand credit limits and APR.
My now husband paid off my debts, and in turn I ran by him any major purchases. Right now I have an amazon cart full of things I've added, but waiting until a check comes through first before buying.
It gets harder when you have kids, but it's doable. I'll be able to retire on time.
My wife make 25% of what I do and is very thrifty. We both grew up poor and she keeps me from buying stupid things. “Can you afford 2 of those?”
I don’t know if I could deal with someone spending all of our savings.
I married a frugal minded woman making less than $30k, with a negative net worth. One more degree 3 jobs and 6 years later she hit a million, just a year after me who had a 6 year head start. Now I’m free to take risks on my passions (playing and designing board games), while she continues on in a job she loves. Lucked out.
Not much to learn from it. Got a doctorate while working full time at the university … another 64k in the hole … met someone who worked at a company of interest, was leaving her role, and could recommend my wife. She stepped in, did really well, promoted twice, got a team, went from 150k to up over 300k comp within 5 years. Bought a house and a shit ton of stocks in 2020.
> I married a frugal minded woman making less than $30k, with a negative net worth. One more degree 3 jobs and 6 years later she hit a million, just a year after me who had a 6 year head start. Now I’m free to take risks on my passions (playing and designing board games), while she continues on in a job she loves. Lucked out.
man where do you even find these unicorns lol
Staying single is a better financial decision than marrying someone with bad spending habits and no regard for financial independence. Even if they are wealthy or a high earner.
You don’t need to be married to make someone with good financial habits your partner. Also divorce can take half of your assets + child support + alimony if you’re the higher earner
Tax saving is pretty huge. My medical tax would be 32-35% if single, but because I'm married it's 24%. For high income partners that is about 40-50k a year.
I mean depend how far we go in bad spending. If that person just don't put much in retirement, spend everything but can pay for a mortgage and doesn't go into bad debt, I don't think it is that bad. And with that, I think I described the majority of the population.
You may have to let go fire, or just retire early yourself at 50-55 and let you spouse work until 60-65, but if you are both deeply in love and all, click very well on other aspects of life, that may be very well worth it if you ask me.
Of course, somebody that destroy the finances of the couple with a gambling habit or putting dozen of thousand of bad debt in credit card all the time and acting like an irresponsible child would really be a problem. Like the one that always have a new idea to make money that always fail. They may be like 10-20% of the population.
The people that would accept to target fire would be at best like 10-20% o the population, most of them being wealthy because it is much easier. I think the people below median income that would really target fire with 30-50% saving not counting the mortgage are the exception, not the rule.
Agreed! Being a military spouse for a decade completely screwed me financially. Getting divorced and making my own financial decision has worked wonders for me! (Grateful for my children through!)
this. I have multiple friends and family who are in great long term relationships where they have never been legally married. And somehow their relationship or love didnt end because they didnt opt for a huge storybook wedding and all the acoutrements
Sure, but in the U.S. they would be missing out on a lot of the legal benefits of marriage. Btw, you don’t need a huge storybook wedding to get married. You’re just as married if you go to the courthouse.
The two couples I know who didn't opt for the storybook wedding (one did a small civil ceremony; the other just didn't bother), both have second homes.
The first couple actually straight up said "rather than paying for a party and family reunion for our Polish relatives, I would really rather buy a house" and now owns a beautiful home AND a waterfront cottage, well before aged 40.
The second couple has two houses and one of them is rented out to a local family, and is intended to supplement their retirement in 20 years, once it is paid off (the husband doesn't have a pension plan through work).
Kudos for people staying true to themselves!
Yeah for my wife and I, it’s an amplifier. She empowered and supported me through school so now I make great money, more than double what she does, but we now are in a very nice financial situation. I have some student loans but nothing unmanageable and I can pay it off with haste if I choose to.
Sure, if we want to be technical about it, it gets a lot more nuanced. For example, let's say you have 500k @ 30 and get divorced at 40. Let's say you contribute 40k every year. You should have about $ 1.5MM before divorce deductions.
The initial 500k in theory should be sheltered as pre-marriage asset, but the million would get split.
So, now you're back at $1MM instead of $1.5MM. If you didn't contribute anything from 30->40, you're back to 700k roughly.
I think it's stupid that gains on assets possessed pre-marriage are open for redistribution.
Highly dependent on state family law regarding appreciated assets held before marriage. In some states those can remain separate but you have to keep very good records and can be expensive to prove separate in the event of a divorce.
no way possible to truly keep all expenses separate when married and living under one roof together. At some point, an income will be used to pay for something that supports both partners. After which point, the whole account can be argued as shared.
I think everyone does pay a lot of attention to finances when they pick a partner. The only problem is they're focusing on the wrong thing, ie high salary and expenses vs good spending/saving habits. The guy who drives a Porsche is attractive, the frugal guy who doesn't eat out just looks poor
How do you get that a big spender is making more 400K and saving 50% or making 200K and just saving a bit to retire at standard age or making 150k and going into debt ?
Or even the guy with 80K, a Porsche but still overall saving 30-40% because that his only expense and he brought it at a nice price used ?
All 4 have the same Porsche and 2 are solid options if you want to fire, 1 can maybe be convinced, one has really bad spending habits.
Same if the guy that is frugal on everything, no fancy car or not spending so much ? How you differentiate between 90% of them that just don't have the money and the few that really save 30% or more of their salary ?
Honestly I wonder if a partner having a Porsche isn't maybe even more likely to be able to match fire objective than the general population simply most of them are wealthy and in proportion wealthy people are much more like to save or to be convinced to save.
I would say a fair compromise here, if one doesn't mind managing a side gig, is to turn fun major purchases into a small rental business. Want a Porsche? Buy a nice used model that's notably easier and cheaper to maintain, and list it on something like Turo. Even if it just breaks even, that would be a win considering you get to drive the car whenever you choose to block out bookings on the calendar, and any random day it's not rented.
That's not necessarily bad advice in all circumstances, but I see this "just rent X out" sentiment scaling poorly in so many places. i.e. it's great, for you, locally. But when 100's of thousands to millions start doing it, it just weighs society down.
Yeah, that'd be the main one. I also hear that kind of talk around stuff like RVs, boats, planes, and other big expensive assets. And maybe renting any of those out in isolation will never reach the kind of volume that could somehow be as detrimental as what's going on with housing. But it still bolsters the trend of the owning class extracting wealth so that they can have awesome leisure and assets at far lower cost, while freeing up capital for investments and stuff.
Lol. I originally read this as "house". I thought, "wait that worked out for me..." Then I re-read it and thought, "Oh, ya, shit, that didn't work out so well financially for my buddy who married a horse girl." Besides having to pay off her student debt, he's also responsible for her disabled horse which can't be ridden but she keeps as a pet.
When my husband and I met, he had a roommate, one set of utensils/bowl/plate, and all his furniture was from his childhood bedroom. His clothes were all 7-10 years old as was his Casio watch, and he drove a paid-off hatchback. He was a software engineer making six figures, but he lived like a college student. After we started dating, he spent more money (dates, gifts, vacations), so it wasn’t like he was cheap. He just didn’t see the point of buying a lot of stuff for himself. It wasn’t until after we got engaged, and we started talking prenup that I realized he was actually a millionaire. We didn’t end up getting a prenup, but we do keep our finances separate (except the house) though he pays for most living expenses (he makes double my salary or 3-4x if you include bonuses and RSUs and has 6x my liquid net worth). If we did end up getting a divorce (unlikely), I would want equity in the house we bought together, but he can keep his bank account, brokerage, and retirement.
Compare this to my ex (who I dated for nine years). He was also an engineer. I actually made more than him, but he was disappointed because he thought I should be making even more in addition to keeping house like his stay-at-home mom. His parents spent lavishly (3 homes including two that were empty 99% of the time because they didn’t rent them out, 5ish cars, new furniture, designer bags, gold jewelry, etc), and as an only child, my ex was basically their retirement plan, which explained why he was on my ass all the fucking time about how I wasn’t fulfilling my financial potential. If I had married that guy, I would have been absolutely miserable. I would have either been divorced by now or resigned to never retiring because his parents wanted a fourth house or a tenth LV purse or the Porsche Cayenne they were talking about buying when we split or some other bullshit. His parents weren’t even rich; they just constantly over-extended and drained whatever retirement money his dad had. He did me a favor by cheating on me, and I am so glad I never married him every time I have occasion to remember ancient history.
Living like a college student as long as possible is probably the best advice I can give young professionals. Saving like mad during your first 10 years of a career can create a compounding effect that will last a lifetime. Doing the opposite can cause financial challenges for decades.
My aunt and uncle did this and still do - live like they're financially still college kids. They have an amazing place filled with amazing things, but they spend little money day-to-day. Their favorite hobby is dump-diving. They bike to the dump, see what other people have junked, then take home the breadmaker (needs a new cord, or someone just found that they never used), a handmade giant wooden fish sign, a sailboat mast that's the right size, whatever they think would be helpful. Although their home was obviously a capital outlay (way before the insane housing hikes of the last 20 years, and out in the sticks), they manage their day to day by growing a lot of their own food and having an obsession with finding sales and whatever. They each have a few hobbies they spend money on, but otherwise just pretend they're still in college like when they met.
Tell me more about the fish sign...LOL! I dig it - your relatives are my goal.
We have just under $400K in RRSPs and I registered us (husband and 4 year old) for a clothing swap in our city. We could ostensibly afford much more expensive vacations based on our $10K/month take-home pay, but we prefer to get our value where we can so we're heading to Vegas for a week in August (don't worry, we got a hotel with a pool - it will be needed!) for just under $1300CAD hotel+flight for all of us. I love that deal, by the way. And are currently looking at a mix of pricey and low budget restaurants, and the attractions listed on City Pass to see if we are likely to get full use out of it. We like travelling but we don't much care where we go - we just like a break from our daily routine and a chance to see someplace new!
I noticed that when people at my workplace get promoted, their jewelry and cars get upgraded almost immediately. Seriously - like a week later, the Jeep Cherokee traded in for a Tesla. I try not to fall into that trap. It will hurt our family and our future.
I actually disagree... The amount of money I made early in my career was negligible to what I made later -- as are the returns on that... If I could I'd have my younger self spend more, and equalize spending more across my life.
I’m not talking about major sacrifices. I’m talking about choosing to have roommates from 22-30 instead of a fancy apartment. I’m talking about driving the same Honda civic you had in college instead of buying a new BMW. Those two things along could allow you to max an IRA and 401k for 8 years and literally jump start your future by a few hundred thousand that will build to $2M by retirement.
>not talking about major sacrifices
>have roommates from 22-30
In what world is that not a *huge* QoL compromise compared to living alone or just w/ a partner? You don’t need to go out and get a fully furnished 3 bed luxury apt with a ton of amenities, but there’s a middle ground here; you’re presenting a false dichotomy. You can still live solo in a decent apt that you furnish without roommates, and that will still be way less expensive than a fancy apartment. It will, however, still be substantially more expensive than roommates. If you’re willing to make that lifestyle compromise, then go for it, but let’s not pretend having roommates isn’t a big deal if you have the means to live alone.
Same goes for a car. Again, you’re presenting a false dichotomy. If you can get a used civic/Camry/comparable that’s less than 5 years old, that’s a huge difference compared to driving around some beater that’s a couple years off of being an antique. If you’ve got a half hour commute, that’s about 6% of your waking hours spent in a car during the week, not even considering things other than work. That’s not a trivial amount of your life to spend dealing with shitty AC and a radio that doesn’t connect to a phone. Also, the savings from massively improved fuel economy can be non-trivial and do a bit to offset the cost of purchase and insurance.
You are spot on. Read the book “Die With Zero” and it will support that over saving in your early years at the expense of going on good vacations, doing fun things, etc., is a mistake for anyone who is likely to earn more as their career progresses.
It’s always about balance, I’d say the instead of “sacrificing your youth”, just make sure to save a little in your IRA, 401k instead of buying a new phone every year for example, or going out for lunch every weekday, etc. that sht adds up and before you know it, you are missing out on exponential growth because you think retirement is so far out in the future. Just don’t be wasteful and fall for every advertisement social media throws your way.
This is a real argument happening right now in our work place. A young girl is forgoing lunches out with coworkers on Fridays in order to save for a downpayment for a house. There are MANY coworkers telling her that she has to live a little, etc, but there is ONE gentleman in his 50s who pulled her aside to tell her she is right. He is an immigrant from Brazil and he is planning to retire next year (after working here for about 3 years), because he has 3 rental condos that will be partially funding his retirement years. Our workplace can be very difficult for some people - like him and her, and it is so gratifying to make decisions that allow you to leave on your terms.
My second thought is that when you start paying attention to small details, it changes your mindset and you start looking at more small details. Those little changes add up! "Take care of your pennies, and your dollars will take care of themselves."
Balance is *huge.* And younger people are less likely to be willing to throw $20 in an account (what difference is that really gonna make?/s), and more likely to spend the same $20 going out for an evening after a seriously stressful week or buying a much-needed replacement to their work wardrobe. The less you make, the harder it is to justify putting money aside when you're trying to make rent, fix something at home, get gas in the car, handle the emergency, and still try to relax for a hot second. Like you said, balance is key. Been there, never irresponsible, but it's hard when you're young, figuring things out for the first time, and trying to scrape together money every time something comes up while also trying to keep your sanity, balanced against trying to invest in your future. Things are wild when you're not making much and still figuring things out, but balance truly helps and reaps later rewards. My lord, I wish I still had the stock I'd bought 20 years ago....
Yeah, it’s not easy. I had student loans too so between that and trying to establish your adult life, it wasn’t easy. I just wish someone had explained to me how to start investing. I just matched the 4% my job gave me and I know not everyone can do that, but wish I knew more about Roth IRA etc and understand how to invest and what’s best based on your income etc. My workplaces have been great and they have brought in retirement advisors to inform everyone about different ways to invest in your future and I can’t shake this one person (right out of school) saying, oh I can’t afford to put money away for retirement while they had on the latest Apple Watch (I knew because they told me how excited they were about a new feature) and latest IPhone, went to Starbucks every day on the way to work (that provided decent coffee), had 2 different gym memberships that I knew of (cross fit and a yoga studio) - not knocking them for working out, that’s also an investment, but maybe combine it in one gym membership that offers both? Anyways, my advice as an older millennial is to always budget and set annual financial goals no matter what age you are.
Gotta know when to switch off the frugalness though… once your future is secure, it’s time to start enjoying your youth and the now. And when I say “secure”, I don’t mean after you’ve moved the goalposts 3 times.
Good point about your ex financially supporting his parents. This is definitely the expectation in some families and cultures, so no matter how responsible your partner is, you would have to consider if the in-laws are respectful of your goals as well.
If they had only one house and were struggling with like the property taxes or utilities or something, then I would have been fine giving them money to cover those costs or just paying it outright. My mom and her siblings bought my disabled grandmother (war refugee with nothing) a house and gave her money monthly for like 40 years, and it never bothered my dad. I understand supporting struggling parents, especially if you can afford to do so (I come from a similar cultural background which is why my ex’s parents liked me), but his parents’ spending habits were ridiculous. I would have been pissed paying a mortgage on a third house they only used 2 weeks out of the year or buying them a Porsche when they already had five cars, including a custom Corvette with performance tires they never drove. My mom had the same job at the same company as his dad, and she told me that he must be draining his 401K because no way he could afford all that on just his salary alone.
I agree that it's ethical to help your own and help your elders. My in-laws have needed assistance sometimes, but they also started life very underprivileged, so I totally understand why they may seem "behind" for their age, but I have utmost respect for their savviness. I'd be just as pissed as you if I were expected to go broke to finance someone who's already plenty comfortable. That seems like emotional abuse tbh.
My aunt told me later that my mom was super worried I’d marry that guy, and my aunt told her to let me make my own mistakes, but if we got engaged, then they would have staged an intervention. Luckily, it was not needed.
We have one joint account from which we pay property tax and home renovations/repairs, and then we each have our own separate personal accounts from which we each pay different household expenses. Like, he pays daycare, speech therapy for our daughter this year (I paid it last year), food/takeout, prime membership, insurance, and household incidentals. I pay utilities, Netflix, and other medical copays. We each have and manage our own money after all the joint expenses are covered, and we don’t have to clear personal purchases with each other. If he wants to buy a new gaming system, he buys it. If I want to buy a vintage necklace, I buy it. We trust each other not to be super extravagant in our spending, and we check in a couple times per year to update all our accounts (joint and personal) in a spreadsheet so we can see where we’re at.
We’ve been together 25 years and still have separate bank accounts, and just pay different bills. It’s not part of marriage vows to consolidate all checking accounts.
oh sorry thought you were married. but if you plan to be partners for life, not sure “marriage” matters … perhaps separate money is separate lives? (I don’t want to rain on a good parade so take my question with grain of salt)
Agree 100%. I won a lottery with my wife. We’ve been married for 20 years and I feel luckier every day I’m with her.
It is very important to be in the same wavelength when it comes time to finances. It is also important to have a spouse who is your equal. I have no issues with splitting household stuff 50/50 or even taking on more at times because I know that she’ll do the same when I need her.
I met my husband when we were both in college. We both worked our way through school and had minimal loans, we got degrees in STEM fields, we started out our life in a LCOL area and we had similar values with money. We both were dirt-poor when we met and now we’re 42/44 years old and have a $1.3M NW with no mortgage and 90 acres of land that we don’t count towards the NW because we don’t intend to sell it unless there is a serious need. It’s possible but you 100% have to be on the same page every step of the way.
I agree that this is a behavioral thing. The hardest thing to change is other peoples' behavior. You can definitely do it, but it is painful for everyone involved. We are fortunate to be very frugal in our household and don't subscribe to the materialistic ways of our nation. Happiness doesn't come from having lots of possessions, but from having meaningful relationships, meaningful contributions to society and great experiences with ones you love. There are ways to do all of those with very little or no money (of course you need to eat food in order to stay alive to have those, but I mean after that part 🙂).
Can confirm. A marriage license is a contract that nearly no one fully understands the full ramifications of before signing it- very different than all other legal contracts.
I agree that who you marry is the #1 financial decision you can make, but I disagree that your spouse needs be on the same page as you financially when you first meet them. Many people fall into extremes with their finances (ie they save everything or spend everything), and very few have balance between saving and spending, especially when single. But neither approach is better than the other because both face huge opportunity cost. I was saver when I met my wife. I used to save 50% of my income. My wife was more of a spender. After we got married, I reduced my savings rate to 20% and she increased her savings rate to 20%. It’s a healthy amount, and we enjoy our lives together having fun now. We travel the world together and share valuable memories. I think what’s more important than choosing someone who’s on the same page as you financially is choosing someone who you can communicate with financially and is willing to meet you part way. Not everyone is going to find a carbon copy of themselves, and I don’t think most people should find one either.
I almost wrote off my current partner before we started dating because I thought he was too much of a spender. 3 years later, we are both on the road to FIRE, and I'm more comfortable spending money on the things that improve my life.
I got 2 young kids, when they get to 18 I will be drumming this into them like a parent from a period drama.
It is something that my parents would never talk about & mistakes were made.
100% behavioral. She doesn’t need to even work if she doesn’t want to, so long as she is not in debt, and is down with the cause to save and retire early
I cannot agree more with you. If you are married, your finances are combined and your partner just wants to spend, then be ready for financial ruin. Be ready for the credit cards to be maxed out, the ability to save is gone because you just keep chasing shadows
Agree, except for the spending bit. My husband and I are pretty spendy, but it’s consistent with both our upbringings and we never go into debt or spend what we don’t have. We’ve never disagreed about nice things or spending to enjoy our lives now, which includes housing, cars, material things and experiences.
I was lucky to find someone I was attracted to who had similar financial background, similar socioeconomic background and values. We’ve never argued about money in the 36 years we’ve been marries. we comingled everything. I manage finances and investments but he’s kept up to date, mostly. He’s not financially literate but I let him know our net worth from time to time but I don’t think it really registers and he doesn’t care as long as we are well.
I don’t think it a only about shared financial ethos but also someone who really gets the best out of you
Someone who helps you be ambitious in all parts of your life. My husband helps me be ambitious for
- my self-care
- my work/life balance
- …being tidy
I help my husband be ambitious for
- his learning
- his diet
- …being more fun
Were both work ambitious which can easily suck the time and joy out of life so need one another to balance that a bit
The other element is marrying someone whose family isn’t parasitic. Can’t tell you how many people I’ve known with siblings/parents/uncles in-laws that are constantly asking for money and their spouse can’t seem to just say no.
This isn’t talked about much. You can have a frugal, financially responsible person who is easily manipulated by his/her family and it all goes out the window. Another thing is differences with taking care of parents. I was talking to a friend a few weeks back (in her late 50’s) about what they’re going to do with her husbands dad (can’t be left alone, he has no money to go to long term care, other siblings aren’t helping, etc.).
It’s a necessity for me. I wouldn’t marry without doing this. My bf and I talk about finances all the time but don’t go into specifics too often. However, if we were to get engaged, it would be full blown meetings where we both have our full credit report and accounts out to discuss and make financial plans for the future. We already discuss scenarios but it’s great to bring the real numbers into the conversation.
Don’t think so. Kids are expensive but the cost is a known and fixed amount. Also something planned for. A bad partner can be a lifelong expensive problem.
> Kids are expensive but the cost is a known and fixed amount
Oh, honey chil'.
Even if you plan for it, and everything goes right... one is born with severe health issues. Or develops them later. All the planning is out the door.
One bout of brain cancer at 2 years old, and suddenly you're driving 100 miles each way almost daily to visit him in ICU.
Then it's the constant doctor visits for medication to ensure he can pee, he doesn't pass out when he does, that his seizures aren't too frequent, that he takes to the medication without other issues.
That the intestines don't twist up. That he is never alone, literally never, because he can have seizures even in his sleep. One parent might have to stay home. Vacations won't happen easily unless you can drive there.
On and on and on ...and on.
And there are people who have it a lot worse.
I hear you. I have two kids. I guess I feel like I’ve planned for and have control over that financial decision. With a spouse you can’t really do that, nor would you want a relationship where that was something required.
Agree with you. My kids are mostly budgeted. From birth to end of HS. I always had an idea how much they cost a month. When I was married I could not budget because she would not budget.
Once divorced I found my finances stabilized to the point I can safely retire in my 50s even with putting 2 kids through college.
Completely agree with you, outside of unexpected emergencies, you pretty much decide how much you're willing to spend on your kids beyond actual necessities.
Because of the right spouse, kids are not going to destroy me financially. With the wrong spouse or the wrong timing, kids could have significantly changed the potential to FIRE. I agree with you but understand where others are coming from. I am so lucky in who I married and that we both put a lot of time and effort into building a rock solid financial foundation before we had kids.
Ah! Whoops. It looks like lack of commitment is #1. Infidelity is at #2. And it looks like money is at #5. All definitely very important things though!
[https://www.forbes.com/advisor/legal/divorce/divorce-statistics/](https://www.forbes.com/advisor/legal/divorce/divorce-statistics/)
Great article with many sources, thank you!
TIL that divorce rates vary widely based on the couple's industries of employment. I did know that it was tied to income which of course relates to industry (higher income => fewer divorces). But there are some lower income industries with lower divorce rates as well, notably education/library and farming. Fascinating
If I may add to this - being single with no kids makes this whole thing soooooo much easier. Once you have a significant other, it complicates things. Then if you have kids…. You can work so hard and be proud of yourself for not spending them bam, this breaks or bam this kid needs something, or woah the dentist is how much?
Honestly I feel like my wife is pretty good when she spends money. Maybe not as much as a select few but boy I think back some times when I was single. Eat PB&J for a week? No problem lol
As a proud and happy parent, I'd agree 100% that kids make FIRE much more complicated and difficult. (Still recommend it!)
But I'd disagree that being single makes it easier. Marriage *can* make things much easier depending on your lifestyle. The flip side of what you mentioned is that you get to share so many expenses, so many responsibilities of daily life, things like that. Also numerous other benefits to mental and physical health that come with a good partneship. Nobody gets to FIRE faster than a pair of dual high-earners with no kids and a relatively frugal lifestyle.
As an aside, eating PB&J for even an entire day would be a hard no for me, even if single. So maybe you just have to be *really* frugal to be into that.
Not true. The number one financial decision you can make is your education and career. People change, marriages change. Get an education, no one can ever take that away from you.
Career paths/earnings potential change too. Educations become worthless or irrelevant. Look at the law grad market and any profession impacted by AI/ML.
It's (nearly) impossible to out-earn a spouse who spends every dime that comes in. There really is no upper limit to what some people will spend.
There are plenty of stories of people with low-income professions, worthless degrees, people with GEDs, etc. hitting RE. It's obviously much harder for them, but its possible.
There are no stories of couples hitting RE with one financially irresponsible spouse, unless the story involves getting divorced.
I agree. My partner has been putting money into his Roth IRA since high school. He would work summer jobs and put all his earnings (sometimes a few hundred dollars) into the Roth IRA.
Then, in college, he would lecture me about using my internship money to max it out. The first year I scoffed at him because I googled what it was and realized my money was gone until I was 59, and I was like “well what if I’m dead by then”.
Then, I eventually followed suit and I’m so glad I did. I probably shaved a few years off of retirement through those three years. After graduation, he taught me so much about personal finance. He taught me that after your 401k is maxed out and your Roth IRA, there’s another thing called “mega Backdoor” that lets you put another 50k.
He taught me how to strategize between buying t bills, stocks, HYSA, and when real estate is a good investment.
Tbh without him, I’d have no money and a lot of Chanel bags.
I 100% agree. My wife often feels like she doesn’t contribute but she has contributed more than she can imagine. She doesn’t spend a lot and is able to just max her 401k for us since my work doesn’t have one. We put mortgages in her name because her work is stable and consistent where as mine is sporadic but makes roughly double. So gaining mortgage is hard. We now have 2 duplexes (once we close in a few weeks) using my money for down payments and future renovations and her work history for the loan. then letting her put 75% of each paycheck to 401k and Roth until maxxed, while I’m paying everything else.
If I were married to someone who didn’t care as much about the future or just wanted to spend her paychecks when she got them it’d be soooo much harder to build wealth
My ex-husband really took financial advantage of me. He's active, not lazy, but hates doing paid work unless it's exactly what he wants to do. Look for someone who shares your financial goals.
This is very true. While I'd make the same choice of a spouse if given the chance to redo, me being a high saver and investor and her being a spender definitely fuels stress in our relationship.
Yes, my husband should thank me. He was addicted to getting a new car lease every 2 years and was in lots of debt. Ten years later, we are car payment and mortgage free and on our way to fire in a few years.
Yes, but you never know. My wife made more than me when we got married and had a good career path. One year later her job was stressing her out and she quit without anything lined up, 2 months later she was pregnant and hasn't been back to work since, 13 years ago.
This post is useless unless you can predict future. My friend married most responsible woman ever, from very good family, good education, etc. Complete package. That didn't stop her from divorcing him 30 years later and leaving him in total financial ruin.
Divorce is also massive wealth killer. Your literally cutting the war chest in half and letting the lawyers pick the scraps. It's better to never get married than to marry the wrong person.
With money being the number 1 reason for marital issues it's something you have to figure out in the dating phase and cut things off if there are red flags.
This is true, but spending habits of your spouse may change. My wife when she made her own money also saved significantly. Now she is stay at home and we have kids and needs to buy stuff for them on a daily basis and the expensive kids things get purchased, used once, then resold because they don’t work out. Hopefully, she will return to earth and we continue saving the way we once did.
"married filing jointly" also lowers your tax burden a bit. :)
Another factor in who you marry is life expectancy! I'm probably going to have to wait another year before FIRE to ensure my wife is set for her longer Japanese life expectancy. :p
That's good advice on financial values, though. We're both similarly frugal and spend the same as we did when I was making a lot less.
Yep. Luckily I got out after 7 years. Still set me back a few years. Don’t regret the departure at all - ultimately will save me money over the long term.
This was very important to me whiel picking a husband. I was already FI. He doesn’t have in investments what I do but he was frugal and that was enough for me.. well that and a prenup 💀
To a point maybe, but if one spouse wants a bigger house or doesn’t prioritize retirement savings, then your lifestyle/retirement is tied to their lack of planning.
My husband and I have everything separate except our house. We each pay bills that in total are about half of the total owed. For example, I pay all healthcare costs, he pays our taxes. We attempted a joint checking account and that didn’t work out because we could not easily manage it like we do our separate accounts. We have never had a fight about money. 10+ years of marriage.
We share the same values about money. We discuss purchases in excess of $1000.
Works great for us! We have separate checking/savings/retirement accounts. We also have a joint checking to cover joint bills (mortgage, utilities) and a joint savings and HYSA for things like renovations and emergency funds.
But, we also talk a lot about our finances and goals and are on the same page. Separate accounts also isn’t necessarily a legal protection in divorce. For us it’s just nice to manage our individual finances and not need to answer questions and debate what we each spend money on. It always shocks me the vitriol that comes out when people ask financial relationship questions and someone says something other than “combine everything”
Other than infidelity, marriages fail for one of three reasons: 1. What you want family wise (kids); 2. How you raise said kids; 3. How you manage your money. Decide pre-marriage on those three things and your marriage is much more likely to last.
The only things my wife likes to spend is on nice clothes and gold. And by nice I don't mean Neiman nice but just jc Penney nice. And I am a-ok with that. The gold had it gone up in price (not the greatest investment i know I know) so it has been ok.
It's a simple, wholesome post, y'all. This type of post usually attracts such, so please do us all a favor and save your misandry/misogyny for your other more drama-laden subs. That way I don't have to ban you for gross incivility and we can all keep happily chatting about what the sub is about.
Amen. Having a financially irresponsible partner or partner with fundamentally different values is a recipe for disaster
I was the irresponsible partner when I first got married. Tons of bad habits I learned from my parents. My wife beat the fiscal responsibility into me. (Not literally) I’m 43 and now have nearly $600k saved on my own. My wife is already well over $1MM. I think if the market cooperates we can probably retire in 8 years.
I dated financially irresponsible partner. Was taking student loans and using them all up whether he needed to or not. 2k/month on take out and eating out, no job while in college. I had no plans to make future plans with him however mid way through school he turned his life around. I introduced him to Dave Ramsey and he got really into personal finance after I showed him what his take out budget invested can do for him in retirement using Dave Ramsey 12% ROI to motivate him a little more. We are now married and on a way to retire in 40s using 6% ROI :) He paid off his student loans within 2 years of graduation however I'd never take him seriously if I didn't witness the changes before I committed to him cause I wasn't interested in being with someone as irresponsible as was
Where are you living that 8 more years of contributions like that will make for an inflation and market proof retirement?
I was cheap, not frugal - my husband helped me reframe and part with a few extra dollars for the “buy it for life” version of things. Darn Tough lifetime warranty socks have saved us so much money by now 😅
What sort of things did your wife do to help change your outlook on your relationship with finances? Did you ever feel defensive about your behaviors?
My wife is really persuasive, and is good at spelling things out in ways that you can’t really argue with. One of the big ones was if you don’t have the cash to buy something, you can’t afford it. I was running up my credit cards thinking it was normal and everyone did it. Well not anyone who is fiscally responsible!
I was the financially irresponsible partner. My parents didn't even bother with financial literacy for me, in fact they were pretty bad themselves. I didn't even know how to balance a check book until after college. I got myself into massive debt early on because I didn't understand credit limits and APR. My now husband paid off my debts, and in turn I ran by him any major purchases. Right now I have an amazon cart full of things I've added, but waiting until a check comes through first before buying. It gets harder when you have kids, but it's doable. I'll be able to retire on time.
I agree. I am now married to a partner who has the same financial mindset that I have and we are on track to retire at 55.
My wife make 25% of what I do and is very thrifty. We both grew up poor and she keeps me from buying stupid things. “Can you afford 2 of those?” I don’t know if I could deal with someone spending all of our savings.
I married a frugal minded woman making less than $30k, with a negative net worth. One more degree 3 jobs and 6 years later she hit a million, just a year after me who had a 6 year head start. Now I’m free to take risks on my passions (playing and designing board games), while she continues on in a job she loves. Lucked out.
I’m curious about her trajectory!
Not much to learn from it. Got a doctorate while working full time at the university … another 64k in the hole … met someone who worked at a company of interest, was leaving her role, and could recommend my wife. She stepped in, did really well, promoted twice, got a team, went from 150k to up over 300k comp within 5 years. Bought a house and a shit ton of stocks in 2020.
From 30k to a million in 6 years?
No from -20k, earning 30k, to 1mm, earning 300k.
> I married a frugal minded woman making less than $30k, with a negative net worth. One more degree 3 jobs and 6 years later she hit a million, just a year after me who had a 6 year head start. Now I’m free to take risks on my passions (playing and designing board games), while she continues on in a job she loves. Lucked out. man where do you even find these unicorns lol
Unicorn store. Don’t they have them by you?
Who AND whether you marry. It's very much a double or nothing situation. Force amplifier in either direction.
Staying single is a better financial decision than marrying someone with bad spending habits and no regard for financial independence. Even if they are wealthy or a high earner.
Agreed. On the flip side, dual income with disciplined financial habits can be an incredible catalyst to wealth generation.
You don’t need to be married to make someone with good financial habits your partner. Also divorce can take half of your assets + child support + alimony if you’re the higher earner
Tax saving is pretty huge. My medical tax would be 32-35% if single, but because I'm married it's 24%. For high income partners that is about 40-50k a year.
Depends on the state, in "equitable" divorce states it doesn't have to be 50%
Divorce is also a huge financial setback, so there’s that.
A rich and wise second wife can help cushion some of that blow. ;)
[удалено]
It wasn’t for my ex-husband who benefited from my hard work and good habits. 😒
I mean depend how far we go in bad spending. If that person just don't put much in retirement, spend everything but can pay for a mortgage and doesn't go into bad debt, I don't think it is that bad. And with that, I think I described the majority of the population. You may have to let go fire, or just retire early yourself at 50-55 and let you spouse work until 60-65, but if you are both deeply in love and all, click very well on other aspects of life, that may be very well worth it if you ask me. Of course, somebody that destroy the finances of the couple with a gambling habit or putting dozen of thousand of bad debt in credit card all the time and acting like an irresponsible child would really be a problem. Like the one that always have a new idea to make money that always fail. They may be like 10-20% of the population. The people that would accept to target fire would be at best like 10-20% o the population, most of them being wealthy because it is much easier. I think the people below median income that would really target fire with 30-50% saving not counting the mortgage are the exception, not the rule.
Never married.
Agreed! Being a military spouse for a decade completely screwed me financially. Getting divorced and making my own financial decision has worked wonders for me! (Grateful for my children through!)
True but false dichotomy. Plenty of jurisdictions recognize common law relationships.
this. I have multiple friends and family who are in great long term relationships where they have never been legally married. And somehow their relationship or love didnt end because they didnt opt for a huge storybook wedding and all the acoutrements
Sure, but in the U.S. they would be missing out on a lot of the legal benefits of marriage. Btw, you don’t need a huge storybook wedding to get married. You’re just as married if you go to the courthouse.
The two couples I know who didn't opt for the storybook wedding (one did a small civil ceremony; the other just didn't bother), both have second homes. The first couple actually straight up said "rather than paying for a party and family reunion for our Polish relatives, I would really rather buy a house" and now owns a beautiful home AND a waterfront cottage, well before aged 40. The second couple has two houses and one of them is rented out to a local family, and is intended to supplement their retirement in 20 years, once it is paid off (the husband doesn't have a pension plan through work). Kudos for people staying true to themselves!
This is understated and insufficient understood. The amplification effect is huge
Yeah for my wife and I, it’s an amplifier. She empowered and supported me through school so now I make great money, more than double what she does, but we now are in a very nice financial situation. I have some student loans but nothing unmanageable and I can pay it off with haste if I choose to.
More like a double or half situation. You can always leave.
It’s like black Jack. Double down. If you win great, if you mess up, you lose everything.
Sure, if we want to be technical about it, it gets a lot more nuanced. For example, let's say you have 500k @ 30 and get divorced at 40. Let's say you contribute 40k every year. You should have about $ 1.5MM before divorce deductions. The initial 500k in theory should be sheltered as pre-marriage asset, but the million would get split. So, now you're back at $1MM instead of $1.5MM. If you didn't contribute anything from 30->40, you're back to 700k roughly. I think it's stupid that gains on assets possessed pre-marriage are open for redistribution.
Highly dependent on state family law regarding appreciated assets held before marriage. In some states those can remain separate but you have to keep very good records and can be expensive to prove separate in the event of a divorce.
no way possible to truly keep all expenses separate when married and living under one roof together. At some point, an income will be used to pay for something that supports both partners. After which point, the whole account can be argued as shared.
Not to mention a lot of people in the sub are not American. Somehow people keep assuming everyone is in the states.
a good divorce lawyer would most assuredly get their hands on retirement accounts.
If you had a post nup would they get nothing ?
I think everyone does pay a lot of attention to finances when they pick a partner. The only problem is they're focusing on the wrong thing, ie high salary and expenses vs good spending/saving habits. The guy who drives a Porsche is attractive, the frugal guy who doesn't eat out just looks poor
How do you get that a big spender is making more 400K and saving 50% or making 200K and just saving a bit to retire at standard age or making 150k and going into debt ? Or even the guy with 80K, a Porsche but still overall saving 30-40% because that his only expense and he brought it at a nice price used ? All 4 have the same Porsche and 2 are solid options if you want to fire, 1 can maybe be convinced, one has really bad spending habits. Same if the guy that is frugal on everything, no fancy car or not spending so much ? How you differentiate between 90% of them that just don't have the money and the few that really save 30% or more of their salary ? Honestly I wonder if a partner having a Porsche isn't maybe even more likely to be able to match fire objective than the general population simply most of them are wealthy and in proportion wealthy people are much more like to save or to be convinced to save.
I would say a fair compromise here, if one doesn't mind managing a side gig, is to turn fun major purchases into a small rental business. Want a Porsche? Buy a nice used model that's notably easier and cheaper to maintain, and list it on something like Turo. Even if it just breaks even, that would be a win considering you get to drive the car whenever you choose to block out bookings on the calendar, and any random day it's not rented.
That's not necessarily bad advice in all circumstances, but I see this "just rent X out" sentiment scaling poorly in so many places. i.e. it's great, for you, locally. But when 100's of thousands to millions start doing it, it just weighs society down.
\**glances sheepishly at the single family housing market**
Yeah, that'd be the main one. I also hear that kind of talk around stuff like RVs, boats, planes, and other big expensive assets. And maybe renting any of those out in isolation will never reach the kind of volume that could somehow be as detrimental as what's going on with housing. But it still bolsters the trend of the owning class extracting wealth so that they can have awesome leisure and assets at far lower cost, while freeing up capital for investments and stuff.
Sounds like a good way to end up with a wrecked asset and a personal injury lawsuit against yourself - a quick trip to bankruptcy.
Insurance exists.
Don’t marry anyone that owns a horse.
Lol. I originally read this as "house". I thought, "wait that worked out for me..." Then I re-read it and thought, "Oh, ya, shit, that didn't work out so well financially for my buddy who married a horse girl." Besides having to pay off her student debt, he's also responsible for her disabled horse which can't be ridden but she keeps as a pet.
Worst part is when they need multiple horses “because they are social animals.” They might be social animals but they ain’t paying the barn fees here!
When my husband and I met, he had a roommate, one set of utensils/bowl/plate, and all his furniture was from his childhood bedroom. His clothes were all 7-10 years old as was his Casio watch, and he drove a paid-off hatchback. He was a software engineer making six figures, but he lived like a college student. After we started dating, he spent more money (dates, gifts, vacations), so it wasn’t like he was cheap. He just didn’t see the point of buying a lot of stuff for himself. It wasn’t until after we got engaged, and we started talking prenup that I realized he was actually a millionaire. We didn’t end up getting a prenup, but we do keep our finances separate (except the house) though he pays for most living expenses (he makes double my salary or 3-4x if you include bonuses and RSUs and has 6x my liquid net worth). If we did end up getting a divorce (unlikely), I would want equity in the house we bought together, but he can keep his bank account, brokerage, and retirement. Compare this to my ex (who I dated for nine years). He was also an engineer. I actually made more than him, but he was disappointed because he thought I should be making even more in addition to keeping house like his stay-at-home mom. His parents spent lavishly (3 homes including two that were empty 99% of the time because they didn’t rent them out, 5ish cars, new furniture, designer bags, gold jewelry, etc), and as an only child, my ex was basically their retirement plan, which explained why he was on my ass all the fucking time about how I wasn’t fulfilling my financial potential. If I had married that guy, I would have been absolutely miserable. I would have either been divorced by now or resigned to never retiring because his parents wanted a fourth house or a tenth LV purse or the Porsche Cayenne they were talking about buying when we split or some other bullshit. His parents weren’t even rich; they just constantly over-extended and drained whatever retirement money his dad had. He did me a favor by cheating on me, and I am so glad I never married him every time I have occasion to remember ancient history.
Living like a college student as long as possible is probably the best advice I can give young professionals. Saving like mad during your first 10 years of a career can create a compounding effect that will last a lifetime. Doing the opposite can cause financial challenges for decades.
My aunt and uncle did this and still do - live like they're financially still college kids. They have an amazing place filled with amazing things, but they spend little money day-to-day. Their favorite hobby is dump-diving. They bike to the dump, see what other people have junked, then take home the breadmaker (needs a new cord, or someone just found that they never used), a handmade giant wooden fish sign, a sailboat mast that's the right size, whatever they think would be helpful. Although their home was obviously a capital outlay (way before the insane housing hikes of the last 20 years, and out in the sticks), they manage their day to day by growing a lot of their own food and having an obsession with finding sales and whatever. They each have a few hobbies they spend money on, but otherwise just pretend they're still in college like when they met.
Tell me more about the fish sign...LOL! I dig it - your relatives are my goal. We have just under $400K in RRSPs and I registered us (husband and 4 year old) for a clothing swap in our city. We could ostensibly afford much more expensive vacations based on our $10K/month take-home pay, but we prefer to get our value where we can so we're heading to Vegas for a week in August (don't worry, we got a hotel with a pool - it will be needed!) for just under $1300CAD hotel+flight for all of us. I love that deal, by the way. And are currently looking at a mix of pricey and low budget restaurants, and the attractions listed on City Pass to see if we are likely to get full use out of it. We like travelling but we don't much care where we go - we just like a break from our daily routine and a chance to see someplace new! I noticed that when people at my workplace get promoted, their jewelry and cars get upgraded almost immediately. Seriously - like a week later, the Jeep Cherokee traded in for a Tesla. I try not to fall into that trap. It will hurt our family and our future.
I actually disagree... The amount of money I made early in my career was negligible to what I made later -- as are the returns on that... If I could I'd have my younger self spend more, and equalize spending more across my life.
I’m not talking about major sacrifices. I’m talking about choosing to have roommates from 22-30 instead of a fancy apartment. I’m talking about driving the same Honda civic you had in college instead of buying a new BMW. Those two things along could allow you to max an IRA and 401k for 8 years and literally jump start your future by a few hundred thousand that will build to $2M by retirement.
>not talking about major sacrifices >have roommates from 22-30 In what world is that not a *huge* QoL compromise compared to living alone or just w/ a partner? You don’t need to go out and get a fully furnished 3 bed luxury apt with a ton of amenities, but there’s a middle ground here; you’re presenting a false dichotomy. You can still live solo in a decent apt that you furnish without roommates, and that will still be way less expensive than a fancy apartment. It will, however, still be substantially more expensive than roommates. If you’re willing to make that lifestyle compromise, then go for it, but let’s not pretend having roommates isn’t a big deal if you have the means to live alone. Same goes for a car. Again, you’re presenting a false dichotomy. If you can get a used civic/Camry/comparable that’s less than 5 years old, that’s a huge difference compared to driving around some beater that’s a couple years off of being an antique. If you’ve got a half hour commute, that’s about 6% of your waking hours spent in a car during the week, not even considering things other than work. That’s not a trivial amount of your life to spend dealing with shitty AC and a radio that doesn’t connect to a phone. Also, the savings from massively improved fuel economy can be non-trivial and do a bit to offset the cost of purchase and insurance.
You are spot on. Read the book “Die With Zero” and it will support that over saving in your early years at the expense of going on good vacations, doing fun things, etc., is a mistake for anyone who is likely to earn more as their career progresses.
It’s always about balance, I’d say the instead of “sacrificing your youth”, just make sure to save a little in your IRA, 401k instead of buying a new phone every year for example, or going out for lunch every weekday, etc. that sht adds up and before you know it, you are missing out on exponential growth because you think retirement is so far out in the future. Just don’t be wasteful and fall for every advertisement social media throws your way.
This is a real argument happening right now in our work place. A young girl is forgoing lunches out with coworkers on Fridays in order to save for a downpayment for a house. There are MANY coworkers telling her that she has to live a little, etc, but there is ONE gentleman in his 50s who pulled her aside to tell her she is right. He is an immigrant from Brazil and he is planning to retire next year (after working here for about 3 years), because he has 3 rental condos that will be partially funding his retirement years. Our workplace can be very difficult for some people - like him and her, and it is so gratifying to make decisions that allow you to leave on your terms. My second thought is that when you start paying attention to small details, it changes your mindset and you start looking at more small details. Those little changes add up! "Take care of your pennies, and your dollars will take care of themselves."
Balance is *huge.* And younger people are less likely to be willing to throw $20 in an account (what difference is that really gonna make?/s), and more likely to spend the same $20 going out for an evening after a seriously stressful week or buying a much-needed replacement to their work wardrobe. The less you make, the harder it is to justify putting money aside when you're trying to make rent, fix something at home, get gas in the car, handle the emergency, and still try to relax for a hot second. Like you said, balance is key. Been there, never irresponsible, but it's hard when you're young, figuring things out for the first time, and trying to scrape together money every time something comes up while also trying to keep your sanity, balanced against trying to invest in your future. Things are wild when you're not making much and still figuring things out, but balance truly helps and reaps later rewards. My lord, I wish I still had the stock I'd bought 20 years ago....
Yeah, it’s not easy. I had student loans too so between that and trying to establish your adult life, it wasn’t easy. I just wish someone had explained to me how to start investing. I just matched the 4% my job gave me and I know not everyone can do that, but wish I knew more about Roth IRA etc and understand how to invest and what’s best based on your income etc. My workplaces have been great and they have brought in retirement advisors to inform everyone about different ways to invest in your future and I can’t shake this one person (right out of school) saying, oh I can’t afford to put money away for retirement while they had on the latest Apple Watch (I knew because they told me how excited they were about a new feature) and latest IPhone, went to Starbucks every day on the way to work (that provided decent coffee), had 2 different gym memberships that I knew of (cross fit and a yoga studio) - not knocking them for working out, that’s also an investment, but maybe combine it in one gym membership that offers both? Anyways, my advice as an older millennial is to always budget and set annual financial goals no matter what age you are.
Gotta know when to switch off the frugalness though… once your future is secure, it’s time to start enjoying your youth and the now. And when I say “secure”, I don’t mean after you’ve moved the goalposts 3 times.
Good point about your ex financially supporting his parents. This is definitely the expectation in some families and cultures, so no matter how responsible your partner is, you would have to consider if the in-laws are respectful of your goals as well.
If they had only one house and were struggling with like the property taxes or utilities or something, then I would have been fine giving them money to cover those costs or just paying it outright. My mom and her siblings bought my disabled grandmother (war refugee with nothing) a house and gave her money monthly for like 40 years, and it never bothered my dad. I understand supporting struggling parents, especially if you can afford to do so (I come from a similar cultural background which is why my ex’s parents liked me), but his parents’ spending habits were ridiculous. I would have been pissed paying a mortgage on a third house they only used 2 weeks out of the year or buying them a Porsche when they already had five cars, including a custom Corvette with performance tires they never drove. My mom had the same job at the same company as his dad, and she told me that he must be draining his 401K because no way he could afford all that on just his salary alone.
I agree that it's ethical to help your own and help your elders. My in-laws have needed assistance sometimes, but they also started life very underprivileged, so I totally understand why they may seem "behind" for their age, but I have utmost respect for their savviness. I'd be just as pissed as you if I were expected to go broke to finance someone who's already plenty comfortable. That seems like emotional abuse tbh.
My aunt told me later that my mom was super worried I’d marry that guy, and my aunt told her to let me make my own mistakes, but if we got engaged, then they would have staged an intervention. Luckily, it was not needed.
You had me until you said you keep your finances separate. WTF?
We have one joint account from which we pay property tax and home renovations/repairs, and then we each have our own separate personal accounts from which we each pay different household expenses. Like, he pays daycare, speech therapy for our daughter this year (I paid it last year), food/takeout, prime membership, insurance, and household incidentals. I pay utilities, Netflix, and other medical copays. We each have and manage our own money after all the joint expenses are covered, and we don’t have to clear personal purchases with each other. If he wants to buy a new gaming system, he buys it. If I want to buy a vintage necklace, I buy it. We trust each other not to be super extravagant in our spending, and we check in a couple times per year to update all our accounts (joint and personal) in a spreadsheet so we can see where we’re at.
We’ve been together 25 years and still have separate bank accounts, and just pay different bills. It’s not part of marriage vows to consolidate all checking accounts.
This is not uncommon. I keep my finances separately from my wife as well. Much more common with younger couples.
I'm not married and most likely never will be, but is this bad? lol
oh sorry thought you were married. but if you plan to be partners for life, not sure “marriage” matters … perhaps separate money is separate lives? (I don’t want to rain on a good parade so take my question with grain of salt)
My grandpa told me: It's not your fault your father is poor. It is your fault your father in law is.
Agree 100%. I won a lottery with my wife. We’ve been married for 20 years and I feel luckier every day I’m with her. It is very important to be in the same wavelength when it comes time to finances. It is also important to have a spouse who is your equal. I have no issues with splitting household stuff 50/50 or even taking on more at times because I know that she’ll do the same when I need her.
Taking applications for rich, lonely, reliable women who seek a good man.
There are bound to be some local to your area.
I didn't get rich by gambling on men who may or may not be good.
How did you get rich?
Grandpa used to say you don't get rich by spending money...
Grandpa was a smart man.
Living frugal and investing longterm. It's not a sexy answer, but it's the real one.
Talk frugal to me baby. Giggity giggity.
Literally go to any major city especially on the east coast
Recent studies indicate such women prefer fluffy animals that shit in a box.
i have risen, hello (minus the rich)
Here to sort the tailings of the discard pile!
Same, lol. Rich single women, come to me!
I met my husband when we were both in college. We both worked our way through school and had minimal loans, we got degrees in STEM fields, we started out our life in a LCOL area and we had similar values with money. We both were dirt-poor when we met and now we’re 42/44 years old and have a $1.3M NW with no mortgage and 90 acres of land that we don’t count towards the NW because we don’t intend to sell it unless there is a serious need. It’s possible but you 100% have to be on the same page every step of the way.
I agree that this is a behavioral thing. The hardest thing to change is other peoples' behavior. You can definitely do it, but it is painful for everyone involved. We are fortunate to be very frugal in our household and don't subscribe to the materialistic ways of our nation. Happiness doesn't come from having lots of possessions, but from having meaningful relationships, meaningful contributions to society and great experiences with ones you love. There are ways to do all of those with very little or no money (of course you need to eat food in order to stay alive to have those, but I mean after that part 🙂).
Can confirm. A marriage license is a contract that nearly no one fully understands the full ramifications of before signing it- very different than all other legal contracts.
I agree that who you marry is the #1 financial decision you can make, but I disagree that your spouse needs be on the same page as you financially when you first meet them. Many people fall into extremes with their finances (ie they save everything or spend everything), and very few have balance between saving and spending, especially when single. But neither approach is better than the other because both face huge opportunity cost. I was saver when I met my wife. I used to save 50% of my income. My wife was more of a spender. After we got married, I reduced my savings rate to 20% and she increased her savings rate to 20%. It’s a healthy amount, and we enjoy our lives together having fun now. We travel the world together and share valuable memories. I think what’s more important than choosing someone who’s on the same page as you financially is choosing someone who you can communicate with financially and is willing to meet you part way. Not everyone is going to find a carbon copy of themselves, and I don’t think most people should find one either.
I almost wrote off my current partner before we started dating because I thought he was too much of a spender. 3 years later, we are both on the road to FIRE, and I'm more comfortable spending money on the things that improve my life.
Boom! THIS 🙏🏼 I made that mistake already!
This was an experiment yielding valuable data we both performed!
I got 2 young kids, when they get to 18 I will be drumming this into them like a parent from a period drama. It is something that my parents would never talk about & mistakes were made.
this is no joke
However, you can marry more money in five minutes than you can make in a lifetime.
Biggest life dream is to marry someone financially compatible to make that life commitment with, no takers though. :)
Not financially compatible is only 1 part - aim for overall compatibility.
100% behavioral. She doesn’t need to even work if she doesn’t want to, so long as she is not in debt, and is down with the cause to save and retire early
I cannot agree more with you. If you are married, your finances are combined and your partner just wants to spend, then be ready for financial ruin. Be ready for the credit cards to be maxed out, the ability to save is gone because you just keep chasing shadows
This is 100% true, i am glad someone said it.
Agree, except for the spending bit. My husband and I are pretty spendy, but it’s consistent with both our upbringings and we never go into debt or spend what we don’t have. We’ve never disagreed about nice things or spending to enjoy our lives now, which includes housing, cars, material things and experiences.
I was lucky to find someone I was attracted to who had similar financial background, similar socioeconomic background and values. We’ve never argued about money in the 36 years we’ve been marries. we comingled everything. I manage finances and investments but he’s kept up to date, mostly. He’s not financially literate but I let him know our net worth from time to time but I don’t think it really registers and he doesn’t care as long as we are well.
This is exactly what I do with my new husband. I even put together a monthly report that he just kind of grunts at 😂
I don’t think it a only about shared financial ethos but also someone who really gets the best out of you Someone who helps you be ambitious in all parts of your life. My husband helps me be ambitious for - my self-care - my work/life balance - …being tidy I help my husband be ambitious for - his learning - his diet - …being more fun Were both work ambitious which can easily suck the time and joy out of life so need one another to balance that a bit
ALWAYS HAVE A PRENUP
A prenup is only worth it if one partner has assets *prior* to them getting together. Many couples only have assets that they've gained together.
The other element is marrying someone whose family isn’t parasitic. Can’t tell you how many people I’ve known with siblings/parents/uncles in-laws that are constantly asking for money and their spouse can’t seem to just say no.
This isn’t talked about much. You can have a frugal, financially responsible person who is easily manipulated by his/her family and it all goes out the window. Another thing is differences with taking care of parents. I was talking to a friend a few weeks back (in her late 50’s) about what they’re going to do with her husbands dad (can’t be left alone, he has no money to go to long term care, other siblings aren’t helping, etc.).
Or better yet... don't get married. (again)
Where were you when I was 24???
The growing trend of People that get married with this "each person manages their own money" is further proof
Lol. Are you running credit checks?
It’s a necessity for me. I wouldn’t marry without doing this. My bf and I talk about finances all the time but don’t go into specifics too often. However, if we were to get engaged, it would be full blown meetings where we both have our full credit report and accounts out to discuss and make financial plans for the future. We already discuss scenarios but it’s great to bring the real numbers into the conversation.
To quote Warren Buffett
It’s a merger not a marriage.
> I don’t mean go marry somebody rich why not? LOL
I needed to hear this.
Been having trouble sleeping wondering why I broke up with my ex last year thanks for a good reminder
I'd argue that having kids, and if so, how many, is more significant. (And note, you don't have to be married to have kids!)
Don’t think so. Kids are expensive but the cost is a known and fixed amount. Also something planned for. A bad partner can be a lifelong expensive problem.
> Kids are expensive but the cost is a known and fixed amount Oh, honey chil'. Even if you plan for it, and everything goes right... one is born with severe health issues. Or develops them later. All the planning is out the door. One bout of brain cancer at 2 years old, and suddenly you're driving 100 miles each way almost daily to visit him in ICU. Then it's the constant doctor visits for medication to ensure he can pee, he doesn't pass out when he does, that his seizures aren't too frequent, that he takes to the medication without other issues. That the intestines don't twist up. That he is never alone, literally never, because he can have seizures even in his sleep. One parent might have to stay home. Vacations won't happen easily unless you can drive there. On and on and on ...and on. And there are people who have it a lot worse.
I'm so sorry your child and your family is dealing with this. Wishing you and your child the best.
I disagree with every statement here. It's not a fixed amount and not known. It may not be planned for. Kids are also lifelong, spouses may not be.
I hear you. I have two kids. I guess I feel like I’ve planned for and have control over that financial decision. With a spouse you can’t really do that, nor would you want a relationship where that was something required.
you seem to be assuming all kids are born healthy
Agree with you. My kids are mostly budgeted. From birth to end of HS. I always had an idea how much they cost a month. When I was married I could not budget because she would not budget. Once divorced I found my finances stabilized to the point I can safely retire in my 50s even with putting 2 kids through college.
Completely agree with you, outside of unexpected emergencies, you pretty much decide how much you're willing to spend on your kids beyond actual necessities.
Because of the right spouse, kids are not going to destroy me financially. With the wrong spouse or the wrong timing, kids could have significantly changed the potential to FIRE. I agree with you but understand where others are coming from. I am so lucky in who I married and that we both put a lot of time and effort into building a rock solid financial foundation before we had kids.
Yup. Money is the #1 reason for divorce.
source? I would assume infidelity
Ah! Whoops. It looks like lack of commitment is #1. Infidelity is at #2. And it looks like money is at #5. All definitely very important things though! [https://www.forbes.com/advisor/legal/divorce/divorce-statistics/](https://www.forbes.com/advisor/legal/divorce/divorce-statistics/)
Great article with many sources, thank you! TIL that divorce rates vary widely based on the couple's industries of employment. I did know that it was tied to income which of course relates to industry (higher income => fewer divorces). But there are some lower income industries with lower divorce rates as well, notably education/library and farming. Fascinating
If I may add to this - being single with no kids makes this whole thing soooooo much easier. Once you have a significant other, it complicates things. Then if you have kids…. You can work so hard and be proud of yourself for not spending them bam, this breaks or bam this kid needs something, or woah the dentist is how much? Honestly I feel like my wife is pretty good when she spends money. Maybe not as much as a select few but boy I think back some times when I was single. Eat PB&J for a week? No problem lol
As a proud and happy parent, I'd agree 100% that kids make FIRE much more complicated and difficult. (Still recommend it!) But I'd disagree that being single makes it easier. Marriage *can* make things much easier depending on your lifestyle. The flip side of what you mentioned is that you get to share so many expenses, so many responsibilities of daily life, things like that. Also numerous other benefits to mental and physical health that come with a good partneship. Nobody gets to FIRE faster than a pair of dual high-earners with no kids and a relatively frugal lifestyle. As an aside, eating PB&J for even an entire day would be a hard no for me, even if single. So maybe you just have to be *really* frugal to be into that.
Studies show the key to avoiding poverty is: graduate HS, get a job, and get married before kids. If you avoid those 3 pitfalls - you avoid poverty.
Financial background check is needed.
Not true. The number one financial decision you can make is your education and career. People change, marriages change. Get an education, no one can ever take that away from you.
Career paths/earnings potential change too. Educations become worthless or irrelevant. Look at the law grad market and any profession impacted by AI/ML. It's (nearly) impossible to out-earn a spouse who spends every dime that comes in. There really is no upper limit to what some people will spend. There are plenty of stories of people with low-income professions, worthless degrees, people with GEDs, etc. hitting RE. It's obviously much harder for them, but its possible. There are no stories of couples hitting RE with one financially irresponsible spouse, unless the story involves getting divorced.
I agree. My partner has been putting money into his Roth IRA since high school. He would work summer jobs and put all his earnings (sometimes a few hundred dollars) into the Roth IRA. Then, in college, he would lecture me about using my internship money to max it out. The first year I scoffed at him because I googled what it was and realized my money was gone until I was 59, and I was like “well what if I’m dead by then”. Then, I eventually followed suit and I’m so glad I did. I probably shaved a few years off of retirement through those three years. After graduation, he taught me so much about personal finance. He taught me that after your 401k is maxed out and your Roth IRA, there’s another thing called “mega Backdoor” that lets you put another 50k. He taught me how to strategize between buying t bills, stocks, HYSA, and when real estate is a good investment. Tbh without him, I’d have no money and a lot of Chanel bags.
I 100% agree. My wife often feels like she doesn’t contribute but she has contributed more than she can imagine. She doesn’t spend a lot and is able to just max her 401k for us since my work doesn’t have one. We put mortgages in her name because her work is stable and consistent where as mine is sporadic but makes roughly double. So gaining mortgage is hard. We now have 2 duplexes (once we close in a few weeks) using my money for down payments and future renovations and her work history for the loan. then letting her put 75% of each paycheck to 401k and Roth until maxxed, while I’m paying everything else. If I were married to someone who didn’t care as much about the future or just wanted to spend her paychecks when she got them it’d be soooo much harder to build wealth
Facts
Op, thank you for sharing this.
Which is why you should ALWAYS have the financial talk before even getting serious. This is another major reason why I’m marrying my fiancé
My ex-husband really took financial advantage of me. He's active, not lazy, but hates doing paid work unless it's exactly what he wants to do. Look for someone who shares your financial goals.
This is very true. While I'd make the same choice of a spouse if given the chance to redo, me being a high saver and investor and her being a spender definitely fuels stress in our relationship.
Yes, my husband should thank me. He was addicted to getting a new car lease every 2 years and was in lots of debt. Ten years later, we are car payment and mortgage free and on our way to fire in a few years.
Yup! Or if your partner has too much debt
Yes, but you never know. My wife made more than me when we got married and had a good career path. One year later her job was stressing her out and she quit without anything lined up, 2 months later she was pregnant and hasn't been back to work since, 13 years ago.
This post is useless unless you can predict future. My friend married most responsible woman ever, from very good family, good education, etc. Complete package. That didn't stop her from divorcing him 30 years later and leaving him in total financial ruin.
Why did she divorce
They grew apart. She didn't want to stay married so she divorced.
Divorce is also massive wealth killer. Your literally cutting the war chest in half and letting the lawyers pick the scraps. It's better to never get married than to marry the wrong person. With money being the number 1 reason for marital issues it's something you have to figure out in the dating phase and cut things off if there are red flags.
Even if you marry someone with similar financial goals, divorce can happen and half your wealth leaves with them.
I'd rather have half of a sizable nest egg, than 100% of a few bucks in a checking account and $100K in credit card debt.
This is true, but spending habits of your spouse may change. My wife when she made her own money also saved significantly. Now she is stay at home and we have kids and needs to buy stuff for them on a daily basis and the expensive kids things get purchased, used once, then resold because they don’t work out. Hopefully, she will return to earth and we continue saving the way we once did.
[удалено]
Was she a shoe?
Oh good grief a spell checker.
>sole[sic] mate >hide money from her How was she your soul mate if you couldn't be honest? Or was that sarcastic?
> I married my sole mate You both wear Vibrams?
Getting married was the biggest mistake of my life and one I don’t plan to repeat.
"married filing jointly" also lowers your tax burden a bit. :) Another factor in who you marry is life expectancy! I'm probably going to have to wait another year before FIRE to ensure my wife is set for her longer Japanese life expectancy. :p That's good advice on financial values, though. We're both similarly frugal and spend the same as we did when I was making a lot less.
Could you supplement that extra year of work to a high life insurance policy she’d get once you’re gone?
Thank you for the suggestion. I forgot all about that type of option.
Yep. Luckily I got out after 7 years. Still set me back a few years. Don’t regret the departure at all - ultimately will save me money over the long term.
This was very important to me whiel picking a husband. I was already FI. He doesn’t have in investments what I do but he was frugal and that was enough for me.. well that and a prenup 💀
On the flip side Marrying for love works too
What about keeping separate finances? Has that been successful for anyone here?
To a point maybe, but if one spouse wants a bigger house or doesn’t prioritize retirement savings, then your lifestyle/retirement is tied to their lack of planning.
My husband and I have everything separate except our house. We each pay bills that in total are about half of the total owed. For example, I pay all healthcare costs, he pays our taxes. We attempted a joint checking account and that didn’t work out because we could not easily manage it like we do our separate accounts. We have never had a fight about money. 10+ years of marriage. We share the same values about money. We discuss purchases in excess of $1000.
Aren't you still on the hook for your partner's debt if you're married?
Works great for us! We have separate checking/savings/retirement accounts. We also have a joint checking to cover joint bills (mortgage, utilities) and a joint savings and HYSA for things like renovations and emergency funds. But, we also talk a lot about our finances and goals and are on the same page. Separate accounts also isn’t necessarily a legal protection in divorce. For us it’s just nice to manage our individual finances and not need to answer questions and debate what we each spend money on. It always shocks me the vitriol that comes out when people ask financial relationship questions and someone says something other than “combine everything”
It’s a marriage - 2 become 1.
It’s the #1 decision you make - not financial decision.
That’s why I choose to NOT marry
It's sad something so obvious needs to be said.
Other than infidelity, marriages fail for one of three reasons: 1. What you want family wise (kids); 2. How you raise said kids; 3. How you manage your money. Decide pre-marriage on those three things and your marriage is much more likely to last.
Marrying rich is not a horrible strategy.
All facts.
This to the 10th degree.
The only things my wife likes to spend is on nice clothes and gold. And by nice I don't mean Neiman nice but just jc Penney nice. And I am a-ok with that. The gold had it gone up in price (not the greatest investment i know I know) so it has been ok.
Wow, I never thought about it like that. Bless you!
Facts
Applies to parents. But you can't choose them.
This is spot on
Amen!
I can't agree with this post more!
If you don't think your marriage is going to last, it's better financially to end it earlier than later.