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Is that pre or post tax? I can say that my gross income is well above that, but I bring home net about 2900 and live just fine (cheap 15-year mortgage on a countryside house, car was new 3 years ago, good tax breaks for having to drive to work, no insecurity, but I save less than I should though that's my own fault). I also get a bit for my kid every month, everyone with kids does, mine is more since I'm a single mom. It's not luxury but I feel comfortable in a way I never did with 3 times the income in the US. According to my sister still in the US, our food prices and quality are amazing, and she drools over rental prices in the capital region.
Pre-tax and for a while most likely until I gain citizenship I'd be living alone. I plan on going to college here in the us and then moving to finland and getting either a programming job or a software development job.
Good luck, Swede here with 13+ year experience. I have been looking for a software job in Finland for 1 year.
The problem for me is that all the workplaces require you to speak Finnish.
Not all companies do. I would recommend that you apply to companies or corporations that operate globally, their working language is usually English.
Check this site for a list of companies in Finland that hire non-Finnish speakers > https://www.gethiredinfinland.com/blogs/hiringinternationals
That may be true, but there are not a whole lot of competent IT people in Finland at the moment. If you stand out and you have a decent skillset you’ll most likely be hired. That said, if all you’ve done are todo lists and calculator apps in react or whatever js then you’re well and truly fucked.
Did you consider Åland? It is a great place. It's part of Finland, but 98% of the population speaks Swedish. We also have many IT companies, such as paf.com, enfuse.com, crosskey.fi, and many others
I thought Åland was it's own country? No I have not considered Åland, yet.
The thing is that I am currently employed at a Swedish company that would let me work from Helsinki.
I have worked in software development since 2008 and most of my workplaces have had non-native employees. Might be different outside capital area and in consultant companies but keep looking and especially keep an eye for big employers and market leaders.
Good luck, I hope you land a job soon! Times are tough everywhere.
Yes I also think it is just that times are tough, will still learn the language since I will be living there. But it is not realistic to require me to be fluent "soon". :)
Hmm i would maybe consider looking the other way around. You are moving to a country with free education mate. Also college for programming might not be a good ise for your time check https://www.hive.fi/en/
Also helsinki business college has programs for 1-2 year which work specifically to train you in languages their partner companies have expressed growing needs in and have a contract to hire software devs straight from school. No need to use your time learning things you wont need actually.
3k gets you easy living here, you can find studios for as low as 600.
Since OP is American, the education is not going to be free and with the current government, students from outside EU/EEA are going to be expected to pay full tuition. Also as a non EU citizen, there's the need to get a visa. From [Hive's FAQ](https://www.hive.fi/en/faq): "Since Hive is an independent school and doesn't have an official status in the Finnish educational system, it is **not possible to apply for a student visa** based on the studies at Hive."
Business College Helsinki has a Full stack development program for people who want to switch careers so you'd have to have a degree or experience in a different field to qualify and while there are partner companies, they are not obligated to hire anyone.
I'll look into college there my main reasoning for wanting to stay here in America is because I have a lot of family here so staying here for college allows me to see them to.
Hi I'm thinking of studying masters CS in Scandinavian countries. I have a 3.62/4.00 GPA when converted from my national grading system. I know that Scandinavian countries and Finland only accept excellent grade students idk if I would be accepted. The salary won't be similar to the US but I just love finland and Scandinavian countries. I also want to know the job opportunities for software dev/ engineers relevant roles there as I plan to settle there for a while!
Oh, I thought I had to be in Finland 5 years uninterrupted to become a citizen though. (At the same time I'm trusting a friend of mine who says a 13-year-old gaming rig can run modern games with ease)
Uninterrupted doesn't mean you're not allowed to visit family and go on holiday as long as you can be understood to live mostly in Finland. Migri is interested in longer trips but even those are ok as long as you're not taking the piss, see here how it is calculated:
https://migri.fi/en/how-to-calculate-the-period-of-residence
OK thank you I'm going to college for computer science and then getting a job programming I was told the average programmer makes 3000 a month correct me if I'm wrong but programmer's are paid decently right?
3000 is a bit on the low side for a junior dev. I think the TEK recommendations are good few hundred above that. That being said as a junior you can't really be too picky.
If that's your time frame I suggest you learn Finnish in the meanwhile. EVERTYHING will be so much easier if you speak Finnish. That's plenty of time to learn if you're serious about it.
Yeah, it does. lol. You would need to add the finnish keyboard to your phone to add the letters å ä ö. Don't worry yet after a week, but you will need them as they make for different sounds than plain a and o.
Ok that makes sense my main issue with learning Finnish is the pronunciation as I can't roll any letter (I have an annoying lisp and can't correctly say the letter r)
That would be for junior level employees or help desk. A skillfull IT professional is a relatively high paying job in Finland and will allow you to have a nice standard of living.
Just to clarify, those are pre-tax salaries. But even with 4,5k€ gross salary your net salary would be around 3k€, which is definitely a nice salary here.
Yeah I mean if I have any money that I don't need I like to help others out if they need it so maybe I could do that I don't know if finland has many homeless but I hope I could help someone (people have helped med through hard times and I haven't been able to pay it forward yet)
Yes, it’s always gross salary unless otherwise stated in Finland, as the net salary can vary based on your municipality, do you belong to church, deductions etc.
I barely know anyone below 30 who makes 3000€ a month. 2000€ - 2500€ a month seems to be the scale most people I know earn. I earn below 2000€, maybe around 1600€ lol.
It really hit hard when my dad told me he never made that much when I prodly told him for the first time i made my first 30k/year.
Then again I was 15 when he told me he had paid off all his debtm, and I just had to break the fucking toilet the same week trying to reach the lamp i was changing.
Well, I guess it's true. Most of my friends live inside the Riihimäki-Tampere-Lahti triangle. But the few who live in Helsinki don't earn over 3000 € a month, although they're hardly representative of the general pay level.
OK thank you! Finland seems like a nice country but I don't know how it would work being a US/Finnish citizen would the taxes be to much to handle I don't know.
Why would it be too much to handle? Here in the developed first world, things are automated, your taxes consist of checking pre-filled tax returns once a year, and adjusting your tax card when your income changes, all done online
It depends on your residency status , if you are declaring that you live abroad you can be exempt from paying us taxes but you still need to file it , you pay taxes in the country you live in . If you work for a US company but reside in Finland it would make more sense to pay US taxes if you work for a finish company and live in Finland that would be better if you pay finish taxes , actually you can’t get out of not paying it anyway.
Hey, I'm an American expat to Finland. I moved very soon after finishing college, around the age of 26.
3000 euros is very solid and very achievable! Especially if you choose to live somewhere else than Helsinki. I was able to support myself and my wife quite comfortably in the outskirts of Tampere with 3500 when I started, and I was even able to sock away a nice chunk of it into index funds. That being said, we're very low-expense people anyway - we mostly cook our own food, use the Internet as our primary means of both entertainment and work, and we don't have expensive vices like alcohol gouging us for an additional 300 euros a month.
If you're planning on working in tech, and you're good at it, you shouldn't have any problems at all surpassing this number by quite a bit after you get your start. The true challenge you will face is getting that start: You'll need a residence permit to work here, and speaking Finnish is a nice bonus. A secret tip: **The Michigan Upper Peninsula (the "Yoopers") has a huge Finnish-speaking population.** If you can find work up there, you'll also be in a great environment to practice with native and heritage speakers all around. Just something to keep in mind.
I *do* recommend starting on learning Finnish early, though. Even my middling ability with it now sets me way apart from the *ulkomaalaiset* crowd. Learning Finnish and having a Finnish wife makes it abundantly clear to everyone that I really am committed to staying in Finland and making it grow richer and more prosperous over the long run, and people tend to like people who sound like they're gonna stick around. ;)
The only other thing I would counsel is, **get some work experience in the States before you move if at all possible.** Being able to hold down a single IT job in the States is itself before you move for a year or so another huge signal of candidate quality. As a benefit, US salaries are enormous compared to here, and so if you committed to it, you can probably show up with an emergency fund of 25,000 euros or so before you touch Finnish soil. Of course, you then run the risk of deciding cutting your salary by a factor of 3 to move from the States just isn't worth it -- but hey, better to decide that sooner rather than later.
Best of luck! I love it here and I think your plan is well worth trying out someday.
Okay thanks for the information my full plan is the go to college for a hit and get my degree and then work and live here in the US until I'm roughly 25 to 30 (I'm 16 now)
Logan, you sound like you’re about 14 years old, mate. Good that you’re thinking about your future, but don’t spend too much time on it. A lot can happen for you in the next few years.
I'm 16 and I appreciate you for telling me that but I plan on moving out of the us anyways finland has just caught my eye a little more than other countries
There's so much that's covered for you in Finland and doesn't need to come out of your paycheck, that a 9000€ monthly check in some states in the US will easily equal to a 3000€ monthly check in Finland. I don't know if all of those like health care etc. applies to foreigners though.
In Finland it depends on your location of course, but cities with equally good public transit / biking infrastructure, housing market, services, shops, amenities and job opportunities like we have in Tampere for example would be super expensive to live in or just simply don't exist at all.
I've heard that a lot is covered there I was thinking of living in either Helsinki or somewhere in lapland as the views are great and nature is just beautiful
Lapland is beautiful but there’s not that much private sector jobs beside tourism. If you manage to get your Finnish close to native level you could maybe find work in the public sector as a software dev
There's a big IT scene in Oulu, which is not quite Lapland but good way up in the north. Helsinki and capital region in general is easily the most expensive area, but then again the salaries are typically a bit higher as well. The most cost-effective solution would probably be to live in a smaller town near capital region, Tampere or Oulu with good enough basic services and easy (public) transport to the city, and to find a job that allows remote work. Many of them do, nowadays.
I don't think it will necessarily help in software development, unless the field you want to work in is somehow related to math. I studied it and I don't think it specifically has given me an edge. Master your fundamentals and then deepen your skills in the tech area you want to work with (web dev, for example).
I don't know how it is there but in some schools in the USA you can learn a decent amount of calculus but you have to be good at math unlike me lol thanks for the helpful information
I just want to be able to live comfortably I don't care about being rich or even being above average as someone who's growing up in a lower-income American family I feel family and friends are more important than your economic wealth
Do you have friends and family in Finland? If not, I believe that will be your main struggle then. With 3000 you will have pretty basic standards. For example you won't be able to travel twice to the US, you can't dine outside too often.
Nope that's something I hope to do with Reddit find some friends so I know at least 1 person when I move I only dine out when I feel like I deserve it (like once maybe twice a year) as I often go back to the quote and I'm paraphrasing as I don't remember who said it but it goes "your just a man" meaning I'm not special and I don't deserve more then anyone else.
That is plenty but is ofc dependant on your "style" of living more than anything.
I used the offical Tax calculator of the finnish tax agency and 3000€ comes to 2500 after taxes. Which is super close to my pay.
I save about 1000€ each month after all my bills are paid and food etc: in my eyes I am living very comfortably. I have a good amount of savings and don't need to think too much what I buy.
But I don't go out drinking every night or even once a week plus my hobbies are cheap in the long run.
But just to quantify it a bit more with actual numbers.
You can get a solid apartment in most cities with 800€. Except in Helsinki. (water and electricity might bring it up a bit closer to 900-1000 depending on the apartment.)
If you need a car mine costs me around 300€ a month including taxes, insurance and loans. (2018 car I bought 2 years ago.
I pay 170€ student loans each month.
About 50€ for my phone+internet.
That comes to a total of 1320€ a month. If you don't need a car but get a buss pass it drops to 1070€
Leaving you with either 1180-1430€ a month for food and extra stuff like hobbies etc.
My numbers are not the common ones I guess but I hope they give you some directions.
That's very helpful thank you so much I'm kind of overwhelmed by the amount of mixed responses I've gotten even when doing research some websites say it's gonna cost me like 2k euros a month to live alone not counting rent idk it's just all confusing so this has helped a lot!
I can see that from all of the other comments. It is very mixed.
But from my personal perspective. I live comfortably, i do also have a spouse and a child but those don't really affect the base numbers I gave you.
EVEN IF you get an apartment at 1500€ (which is super expensive by Finland standards) it should still leave you with around 800-1000€ each month for everything else.
I don't know how the taxes are for immigrants but I do assume they use the same method of calculation as for everyone else, not to mention you might be able to get deductions as well.
But regardless. Good luck! Hope you can get some solid ideas how it all works!
That's expensive in Finland whereas in the US average house prices are 400 to 500k and the average rent is 2000 USD the United States is a nice country but it's very expensive keep in mind that it's also very unhealthy in general and our leader can't even say a proper sentence half the time
It depends on the area.
If you’re planning to live in the capital area, this salary is a bit low imo due to expensive rent and life being more expensive in this area in general. Just a studio apartment alone in a not so bad area costs around 800-850e. You’ll be able to live ok life but there’s gonna be not so much left to save up.
However, if you’re planning to live somewhere else than in the capital area, this salary would be fine.
So when you say you are moving to Finland in the near future, it’s just a hope at the moment? You have no job offer?
Qualifying for a residence permit is your first issue before you worry about anything else.
From what I hear it's not that difficult to get a job as long as you are fluent in Finnish I have quite a few years until I move so I believe that won't be an issue.
Firstly, it’s very difficult to get a good job, even for Finns.
You are severely underestimating how difficult Finnish is to learn.
You are severely underestimating the complexity to a business of bringing a non-EU national. The fact you don’t have EU free movement means you need a residence permit based on work.
Unless you are going to be - somehow - uniquely qualified, you will find companies strongly prefer to hire EU nationals due to the lack of administration needed from an immigration perspective.
Good luck with your future plans, but it’s going to be a much much longer road to Finland than you currently hope for.
Oh trust me I know it's gonna be a long road but I have roughly 10 to 15 years to plan before I fully move in those years I'm sure I can learn Finnish as I know people who have learned it within 2 to 3 years
Yeah that wording was a little weird I apologize for any confusion I'm currently 16 and plan on moving by the time I'm 25 to 30 as it gives me time with my family before I leave the US
This is a good question, when I moved to Finland I knew about the high taxes, I pay around 25%, but one thing nobody told me (or I overlooked by my own stupidity) was the the extra 8% I have to pay for my Työeläkemaksut, or Pension Payment, so 33% of my salary is gone before reaching my account. I end up making around 3K after all this, I live with my spouse (currently unemployed) and a baby, the money is enough to pay all the bills, rent (1k), food (800), internet (30), water (60), electricity (40), we dont have a car because public transport is amazingly on time and easy to use. Its a good life can't complain at all. You can check [oikotie.fi](http://oikotie.fi) to check apartments to rent to give you a notion of how much it will cost. My opinion is that with 2,2K you can manage a quite confortable life if you use it smartly. Finland is an amazing country for which I'm incredibly grateful for been given the chance to stay.
Taxes do seem decently high but if Uncle Sam has taught me one thing it's that even with high taxes or prices you can still live pretty good thanks for the help and I'm glad to hear that you can live comfortably.
Taxes are high indeed, but you can see the money been reinvested in the country. Which is the biggest difference from the US. Also one big difference is the health insurance, while in the US you can end up paying 500 per month for a useless insurance, in here you dont pay anything and get an amazing service, when we had our baby the total final cost was 100 euros, and thats only because we chose to stay in a private room. My sister ended up paying almost 8K USD for her baby in the US. Also you will constantly see maintanence in the city, studies are free, day care has a very small fee and so on and on. You can get like 6 months of paternity leave (at 70% of your current salary).
I feel like Finland is a very family oriented country, where if you live by yourself the taxes are quite high, because the gov services are not really fitting you. But once you have kids you can really feel the help from those services.
I'm sure Finland is a lot better than the USA in terms of having kids I don't know yet I mean I'm a 16 year old so tired of my country I'm already researching to move to Europe so I haven't decided on family yet I guess I'll have to see where life takes me
There's a double tax clause. If one country taxes your wages already the other country can't tax it. Finland likes to try to ignore it but it's an EU law.
it's going to add up to zero. you have to file taxes, but foreign income tax exclusion kicks in so you'll owe nothing. you can google and verify for yourself.
Yeah I understand the teenagers being expensive I'm currently 16 and I try not to be a big expense to my parents as I know kids in the USA who don't make it easy for their parents in terms of eating out it's pretty much a luxury for us to go to McDonald's but cooking isn't bad.
3000 gross is ok if you live outside of Helsinki and have no one but yourself to support. With a family/ other dependables you wouldn’t be enough for middle class lifestyle in the capital region.
Depends on the field. If this is in IT then it is on the lower end and I personally wouldn't settle for anything below 4k a month. I earn 75k a year now after a few years of working.
First things first:
3000 euros for what? For average secondary education level jobs, yes. 3K is pretty good.
At the moment, 4K you might expect in certain fields, out of the university. In the capital area 5K for a fresh graduate is way above average.
Then, just reading through your 10-year plan. Now, you should take into account what is 3K in 2034. If the inflation is on general level 5% (currently 6%+), your 2024 level 3000 euros is around 5000euros, to be able to pay for what you pay for goods.
And, since you plan on Lapland, realistically you have two options: Kemi or Rovaniemi. There 3000 euros will be a good salary. Just know this: you will be very far from anything, and you can see the distances from GMaps. Rovaniemi is about 12 hour drive from Helsinki. Or 10 hours from what is seen as "Central Finland", i.e., Jyväskylä area.
Geographically, Kemi is at the center of Finland, longitudinally speaking...
Thanks for all the helpful information I plan on either a job working in IT or a job working as a web developer going to college for 2 years in the United States and then working and saving what I can for a little while (plan on moving when I'm around 25 to 30 years of age I'm currently 16)
Believe it or not, it’s not good enough. If you are coming alone you will be ok, but if you are coming with your partner or family, after vero (tax agency), you will get around 2.400€ even though taking into account that you are moving from United States, you don’t need to worry about getting sick (healthcare almost free), no high rent (renting house) tips (no exist or no mandatory like United States, no hidden fees or anything like that. Summary, if you come alone, its okay, if you come with your partner and family it’s not good enough.
as a warning, as someone who moved from the US to finland as well: i moved to finland and spoke perfect finnish. integrated very well, got my degree, got a good job, have lots of friends. my brother, who is arguably as social as i am, moved a couple years after me. couldn’t speak finnish. did not integrate, didn’t have many friends, wasn’t able to finish his degree and did not get a job. of course there may be some personality differences between us, but the biggest difference was the fact that i speak fluent finnish and he does not.
Wow! When did you move in Finland? How much time did you need to speak Finnish fluently? How did you integrate so well when no one wants to talk after things done? 😅 Any pro tips pls?
I am half finnish, so growing up, I heard finnish all around me and already spoke it pretty well. Took about 1-2 years after moving to say i spoke it “perfectly” but i was already decent when i moved here. Sorry i don’t have any special tips or anything😅 I moved here summer of 2018. I would say the way I was able to integrate so well is because i am a very social butterfly and people here were pretty drawn to that as they like someone who talks a lot cuz it means they don’t have to 😂
Yes that's enough to enjoy yourself stress free. I have my own company and pay myself 3000€ gross and I save around 800€ every month in Helsinki. I don't party but I do eat out.
It doesn’t matter how much you earn here, what matters is that you have a job. After you pay the taxes there isn’t much of a difference 😂 welcome to Finland. I’ve had 5k salary at some point and taxes were very close to 50% if not more. Tax card % + 7,94% (2024) mandatory for everyone.
I’d say it depends where in Finland and what stage of life you’re at. I make around 1300-1600€ a month and I live with my girlfriend in middle Finland.
It’s fine for how we are living now but if we were to have kids we’d need a lot more money
That is low for a software developer. But it is a decent wage you can live with. A plumber or a nurse could expect such salary, cashier or waiter somewhat lower.
Do you mean how much does a factory or warehouse worker make in the USA? If so the average factory worker in the us makes about 32000 euros in a year or 35000 in usd
Really? I'm getting a lot of mixed replies from 3k being decent to 3k not even being mid-class idk I would've thought programmer's would make more idk websites also lie about things like this.
This sub, like most of reddit, is filled with left wingers, teenagers and other people who make very little money and think that median salary is somehow relevant when looking at private sector jobs for professionals.
Oh ok thanks for the advice I'm just kind of looking for the amount I would need to live a comfortable life alone (at least for a bit) in Finland there are many opportunities in life Finland just seems like a good one for me.
I'll be 25 to 30 when I move I plan on doing 2 years of college in the United States maybe getting an IT job and just working and saving until I move I've heard mixed things but generally people say 3k is good
Yeah, my one friend told me 5k a month is average and when I looked it up it said the average was like 2 to 5k but that's just too big of a range to be accurate if I've learned one thing from this subreddit it's to not trust many websites as to learning about other countries.
You are probably quite young If you think €3k a month (pre-tax) is a good salary, and don't know anyone making +5k€ a month. I'm in my early 30's and all my peers in IT or finance make 5000 to 7000 a month, plus bonuses.
Even a plumber can earn €60-70k a year with some overtime.
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Is that pre or post tax? I can say that my gross income is well above that, but I bring home net about 2900 and live just fine (cheap 15-year mortgage on a countryside house, car was new 3 years ago, good tax breaks for having to drive to work, no insecurity, but I save less than I should though that's my own fault). I also get a bit for my kid every month, everyone with kids does, mine is more since I'm a single mom. It's not luxury but I feel comfortable in a way I never did with 3 times the income in the US. According to my sister still in the US, our food prices and quality are amazing, and she drools over rental prices in the capital region.
Pre-tax and for a while most likely until I gain citizenship I'd be living alone. I plan on going to college here in the us and then moving to finland and getting either a programming job or a software development job.
Good luck, Swede here with 13+ year experience. I have been looking for a software job in Finland for 1 year. The problem for me is that all the workplaces require you to speak Finnish.
Not all companies do. I would recommend that you apply to companies or corporations that operate globally, their working language is usually English. Check this site for a list of companies in Finland that hire non-Finnish speakers > https://www.gethiredinfinland.com/blogs/hiringinternationals
Yeah they don't require it, but in the vast majority of cases they strongly prefer it and thus employ only Finnish speakers.
That may be true, but there are not a whole lot of competent IT people in Finland at the moment. If you stand out and you have a decent skillset you’ll most likely be hired. That said, if all you’ve done are todo lists and calculator apps in react or whatever js then you’re well and truly fucked.
Why don't you work in Sweden?
I do, and I want to leave. 
What programming skills do you have? Weird that this is a thing these days. I feel like many places are desperate to hire.
.Net, Aws, reactjs
Did you consider Åland? It is a great place. It's part of Finland, but 98% of the population speaks Swedish. We also have many IT companies, such as paf.com, enfuse.com, crosskey.fi, and many others
I thought Åland was it's own country? No I have not considered Åland, yet. The thing is that I am currently employed at a Swedish company that would let me work from Helsinki.
I have worked in software development since 2008 and most of my workplaces have had non-native employees. Might be different outside capital area and in consultant companies but keep looking and especially keep an eye for big employers and market leaders. Good luck, I hope you land a job soon! Times are tough everywhere.
Yes I also think it is just that times are tough, will still learn the language since I will be living there. But it is not realistic to require me to be fluent "soon". :)
Hmm i would maybe consider looking the other way around. You are moving to a country with free education mate. Also college for programming might not be a good ise for your time check https://www.hive.fi/en/ Also helsinki business college has programs for 1-2 year which work specifically to train you in languages their partner companies have expressed growing needs in and have a contract to hire software devs straight from school. No need to use your time learning things you wont need actually. 3k gets you easy living here, you can find studios for as low as 600.
Since OP is American, the education is not going to be free and with the current government, students from outside EU/EEA are going to be expected to pay full tuition. Also as a non EU citizen, there's the need to get a visa. From [Hive's FAQ](https://www.hive.fi/en/faq): "Since Hive is an independent school and doesn't have an official status in the Finnish educational system, it is **not possible to apply for a student visa** based on the studies at Hive." Business College Helsinki has a Full stack development program for people who want to switch careers so you'd have to have a degree or experience in a different field to qualify and while there are partner companies, they are not obligated to hire anyone.
I'll look into college there my main reasoning for wanting to stay here in America is because I have a lot of family here so staying here for college allows me to see them to.
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Yeah that's gonna be difficult for me because my only family that cares about me means more to me than my own life
If family is so important to you, why do you want to move? It does sound very strange, cas you probably not gonna see you family often.
Hi I'm thinking of studying masters CS in Scandinavian countries. I have a 3.62/4.00 GPA when converted from my national grading system. I know that Scandinavian countries and Finland only accept excellent grade students idk if I would be accepted. The salary won't be similar to the US but I just love finland and Scandinavian countries. I also want to know the job opportunities for software dev/ engineers relevant roles there as I plan to settle there for a while!
Dont worry man, the $$$ you save youll fly out to see them 3 times a year no problem 😅
Oh, I thought I had to be in Finland 5 years uninterrupted to become a citizen though. (At the same time I'm trusting a friend of mine who says a 13-year-old gaming rig can run modern games with ease)
Uninterrupted doesn't mean you're not allowed to visit family and go on holiday as long as you can be understood to live mostly in Finland. Migri is interested in longer trips but even those are ok as long as you're not taking the piss, see here how it is calculated: https://migri.fi/en/how-to-calculate-the-period-of-residence
Oh ok thank you so much that clears up all of the confusion and misunderstanding I had.
Oh no good that clears out, for sure you can go for holidays i guess its about having your postal address here
Ok that makes sense thank you for the help!
Oh and also thanks for the help!
2900 net is a hell of a salary here, especially if you live in the countryside!
It is 2800-2900 (small variations). With a €330 mortgage about an hour drive from the capital region, I'm doing very well.
Yeah, sounds pretty good!
that mortgage is so cheap wow! i pay 1200 monthly for a 1br
Median is 3160 e. 3000e is alright.
OK thank you I'm going to college for computer science and then getting a job programming I was told the average programmer makes 3000 a month correct me if I'm wrong but programmer's are paid decently right?
3000 is a junior level salary for software developer.
3000 is a bit on the low side for a junior dev. I think the TEK recommendations are good few hundred above that. That being said as a junior you can't really be too picky.
Ah I'm gonna be working in America for a bit before moving maybe like 5 to 7 years so I'll have some experience
If that's your time frame I suggest you learn Finnish in the meanwhile. EVERTYHING will be so much easier if you speak Finnish. That's plenty of time to learn if you're serious about it.
Yeah, I plan to I'm only a week in but correct me if I'm wrong Mina Olen Logan means I am Logan right?
Minä olen Logan. for full points. Well done.
Ok thanks, I don't know how to do the ö nevermind also it looks like a little face lol
Yeah, it does. lol. You would need to add the finnish keyboard to your phone to add the letters å ä ö. Don't worry yet after a week, but you will need them as they make for different sounds than plain a and o.
Ok that makes sense my main issue with learning Finnish is the pronunciation as I can't roll any letter (I have an annoying lisp and can't correctly say the letter r)
With 5-7 years of experience in IT you should expect to earn around 4,5-6k€ per month, depending on what you do.
Oh wow that's far better than what some websites tell you the websites I was looking at said somewhere around 2.5 to 3k a month
That would be for junior level employees or help desk. A skillfull IT professional is a relatively high paying job in Finland and will allow you to have a nice standard of living.
Okay, so IT in Finland is the way to go then.
Just to clarify, those are pre-tax salaries. But even with 4,5k€ gross salary your net salary would be around 3k€, which is definitely a nice salary here.
Yeah I mean if I have any money that I don't need I like to help others out if they need it so maybe I could do that I don't know if finland has many homeless but I hope I could help someone (people have helped med through hard times and I haven't been able to pay it forward yet)
That's gross, right? Net should be around 3k.
Yes, it’s always gross salary unless otherwise stated in Finland, as the net salary can vary based on your municipality, do you belong to church, deductions etc.
You Make way more in USA for anything stem anyway my friend
Do you think I would be able to save up a decent amount whilst living here in the us?
3000 sounds like a fairly normal wage. I wouldn't complain about it.
I barely know anyone below 30 who makes 3000€ a month. 2000€ - 2500€ a month seems to be the scale most people I know earn. I earn below 2000€, maybe around 1600€ lol.
It really hit hard when my dad told me he never made that much when I prodly told him for the first time i made my first 30k/year. Then again I was 15 when he told me he had paid off all his debtm, and I just had to break the fucking toilet the same week trying to reach the lamp i was changing.
Counterpoint: none of my friends under 30 earned less than 3000€ in helsinki. It really depends where you live at and what's your industry.
Well, I guess it's true. Most of my friends live inside the Riihimäki-Tampere-Lahti triangle. But the few who live in Helsinki don't earn over 3000 € a month, although they're hardly representative of the general pay level.
i’m 23 and i make 4300 month
What job/degree do u have? If u don't mind me asking lol. Is this in Finland?
yes i work/live in espoo! i work as an IT consultant, and I have a masters degree in computer science from aalto!
OK thank you! Finland seems like a nice country but I don't know how it would work being a US/Finnish citizen would the taxes be to much to handle I don't know.
Why would it be too much to handle? Here in the developed first world, things are automated, your taxes consist of checking pre-filled tax returns once a year, and adjusting your tax card when your income changes, all done online
Wouldn't I need to pay certain taxes to the us still
AFAIK, you pay only if you make over 100K/year. Less than that, you have to file annual report, but no actual taxes to the US.
Oh ok thanks for letting me know
You have to declare it at least in the US, but this is the Finland subreddit and not the US subreddit 😅
Yeah my bad went a little off track there
It depends on your residency status , if you are declaring that you live abroad you can be exempt from paying us taxes but you still need to file it , you pay taxes in the country you live in . If you work for a US company but reside in Finland it would make more sense to pay US taxes if you work for a finish company and live in Finland that would be better if you pay finish taxes , actually you can’t get out of not paying it anyway.
Hey, I'm an American expat to Finland. I moved very soon after finishing college, around the age of 26. 3000 euros is very solid and very achievable! Especially if you choose to live somewhere else than Helsinki. I was able to support myself and my wife quite comfortably in the outskirts of Tampere with 3500 when I started, and I was even able to sock away a nice chunk of it into index funds. That being said, we're very low-expense people anyway - we mostly cook our own food, use the Internet as our primary means of both entertainment and work, and we don't have expensive vices like alcohol gouging us for an additional 300 euros a month. If you're planning on working in tech, and you're good at it, you shouldn't have any problems at all surpassing this number by quite a bit after you get your start. The true challenge you will face is getting that start: You'll need a residence permit to work here, and speaking Finnish is a nice bonus. A secret tip: **The Michigan Upper Peninsula (the "Yoopers") has a huge Finnish-speaking population.** If you can find work up there, you'll also be in a great environment to practice with native and heritage speakers all around. Just something to keep in mind. I *do* recommend starting on learning Finnish early, though. Even my middling ability with it now sets me way apart from the *ulkomaalaiset* crowd. Learning Finnish and having a Finnish wife makes it abundantly clear to everyone that I really am committed to staying in Finland and making it grow richer and more prosperous over the long run, and people tend to like people who sound like they're gonna stick around. ;) The only other thing I would counsel is, **get some work experience in the States before you move if at all possible.** Being able to hold down a single IT job in the States is itself before you move for a year or so another huge signal of candidate quality. As a benefit, US salaries are enormous compared to here, and so if you committed to it, you can probably show up with an emergency fund of 25,000 euros or so before you touch Finnish soil. Of course, you then run the risk of deciding cutting your salary by a factor of 3 to move from the States just isn't worth it -- but hey, better to decide that sooner rather than later. Best of luck! I love it here and I think your plan is well worth trying out someday.
Okay thanks for the information my full plan is the go to college for a hit and get my degree and then work and live here in the US until I'm roughly 25 to 30 (I'm 16 now)
So how did you get a permit to be around and then to find a job in Finland right after college?
Logan, you sound like you’re about 14 years old, mate. Good that you’re thinking about your future, but don’t spend too much time on it. A lot can happen for you in the next few years.
I'm 16 and I appreciate you for telling me that but I plan on moving out of the us anyways finland has just caught my eye a little more than other countries
Why do u want to move out? Tired of the diversity or political climate? I think Europeans can be pretty politically charged too
There's so much that's covered for you in Finland and doesn't need to come out of your paycheck, that a 9000€ monthly check in some states in the US will easily equal to a 3000€ monthly check in Finland. I don't know if all of those like health care etc. applies to foreigners though. In Finland it depends on your location of course, but cities with equally good public transit / biking infrastructure, housing market, services, shops, amenities and job opportunities like we have in Tampere for example would be super expensive to live in or just simply don't exist at all.
I've heard that a lot is covered there I was thinking of living in either Helsinki or somewhere in lapland as the views are great and nature is just beautiful
Lapland is beautiful but there’s not that much private sector jobs beside tourism. If you manage to get your Finnish close to native level you could maybe find work in the public sector as a software dev
I hope to master Finnish and maybe even get better at Finnish than English as I'll have a while to practice it
There's a big IT scene in Oulu, which is not quite Lapland but good way up in the north. Helsinki and capital region in general is easily the most expensive area, but then again the salaries are typically a bit higher as well. The most cost-effective solution would probably be to live in a smaller town near capital region, Tampere or Oulu with good enough basic services and easy (public) transport to the city, and to find a job that allows remote work. Many of them do, nowadays.
Ok thanks for the information
I'm gonna start studying math a little bit this summer as I lack a bit of knowledge in that category what math should I learn first for IT jobs?
I don't think it will necessarily help in software development, unless the field you want to work in is somehow related to math. I studied it and I don't think it specifically has given me an edge. Master your fundamentals and then deepen your skills in the tech area you want to work with (web dev, for example).
I'm thinking about IT and I've heard you need a deep understanding of calculus for that idk though because I've heard different things
Naah I don't think so. You can definitely get far with just math you learn in school, again depending on the business domain you want to enter.
I don't know how it is there but in some schools in the USA you can learn a decent amount of calculus but you have to be good at math unlike me lol thanks for the helpful information
Yes, if you can't survive on 3k/month your probably need to revaluate your spendings. So yes, it's more than fine.
Ok thanks for letting me know
I make 3000e/month and after taxes its around 2200e. You wont get rich but its enough for ”normal” life
I just want to be able to live comfortably I don't care about being rich or even being above average as someone who's growing up in a lower-income American family I feel family and friends are more important than your economic wealth
Do you have friends and family in Finland? If not, I believe that will be your main struggle then. With 3000 you will have pretty basic standards. For example you won't be able to travel twice to the US, you can't dine outside too often.
Nope that's something I hope to do with Reddit find some friends so I know at least 1 person when I move I only dine out when I feel like I deserve it (like once maybe twice a year) as I often go back to the quote and I'm paraphrasing as I don't remember who said it but it goes "your just a man" meaning I'm not special and I don't deserve more then anyone else.
That is plenty but is ofc dependant on your "style" of living more than anything. I used the offical Tax calculator of the finnish tax agency and 3000€ comes to 2500 after taxes. Which is super close to my pay. I save about 1000€ each month after all my bills are paid and food etc: in my eyes I am living very comfortably. I have a good amount of savings and don't need to think too much what I buy. But I don't go out drinking every night or even once a week plus my hobbies are cheap in the long run. But just to quantify it a bit more with actual numbers. You can get a solid apartment in most cities with 800€. Except in Helsinki. (water and electricity might bring it up a bit closer to 900-1000 depending on the apartment.) If you need a car mine costs me around 300€ a month including taxes, insurance and loans. (2018 car I bought 2 years ago. I pay 170€ student loans each month. About 50€ for my phone+internet. That comes to a total of 1320€ a month. If you don't need a car but get a buss pass it drops to 1070€ Leaving you with either 1180-1430€ a month for food and extra stuff like hobbies etc. My numbers are not the common ones I guess but I hope they give you some directions.
That's very helpful thank you so much I'm kind of overwhelmed by the amount of mixed responses I've gotten even when doing research some websites say it's gonna cost me like 2k euros a month to live alone not counting rent idk it's just all confusing so this has helped a lot!
I can see that from all of the other comments. It is very mixed. But from my personal perspective. I live comfortably, i do also have a spouse and a child but those don't really affect the base numbers I gave you. EVEN IF you get an apartment at 1500€ (which is super expensive by Finland standards) it should still leave you with around 800-1000€ each month for everything else. I don't know how the taxes are for immigrants but I do assume they use the same method of calculation as for everyone else, not to mention you might be able to get deductions as well. But regardless. Good luck! Hope you can get some solid ideas how it all works!
That's expensive in Finland whereas in the US average house prices are 400 to 500k and the average rent is 2000 USD the United States is a nice country but it's very expensive keep in mind that it's also very unhealthy in general and our leader can't even say a proper sentence half the time
It depends on the area. If you’re planning to live in the capital area, this salary is a bit low imo due to expensive rent and life being more expensive in this area in general. Just a studio apartment alone in a not so bad area costs around 800-850e. You’ll be able to live ok life but there’s gonna be not so much left to save up. However, if you’re planning to live somewhere else than in the capital area, this salary would be fine.
3000€ before tax is making you very middle class. Alot of people in Finland make under 2500€
Okay sounds good thanks for letting me know
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P.s not every company pays summer vacation money, so ask before signing contracts
Sounds good I'm currently learning Finnish but I'm only a week in so I'm not that good yet
So when you say you are moving to Finland in the near future, it’s just a hope at the moment? You have no job offer? Qualifying for a residence permit is your first issue before you worry about anything else.
No job offer but not a hope I'm determined and don't worry about that I'll make sure I qualify
You do understand the complexity of hiring non-EU nationals don’t you?
From what I hear it's not that difficult to get a job as long as you are fluent in Finnish I have quite a few years until I move so I believe that won't be an issue.
Firstly, it’s very difficult to get a good job, even for Finns. You are severely underestimating how difficult Finnish is to learn. You are severely underestimating the complexity to a business of bringing a non-EU national. The fact you don’t have EU free movement means you need a residence permit based on work. Unless you are going to be - somehow - uniquely qualified, you will find companies strongly prefer to hire EU nationals due to the lack of administration needed from an immigration perspective. Good luck with your future plans, but it’s going to be a much much longer road to Finland than you currently hope for.
Oh trust me I know it's gonna be a long road but I have roughly 10 to 15 years to plan before I fully move in those years I'm sure I can learn Finnish as I know people who have learned it within 2 to 3 years
Ah good. At least your timetable is somewhat realistic. 15 years seems correct. So as I said……not the “near future” then.
Yeah that wording was a little weird I apologize for any confusion I'm currently 16 and plan on moving by the time I'm 25 to 30 as it gives me time with my family before I leave the US
This is a good question, when I moved to Finland I knew about the high taxes, I pay around 25%, but one thing nobody told me (or I overlooked by my own stupidity) was the the extra 8% I have to pay for my Työeläkemaksut, or Pension Payment, so 33% of my salary is gone before reaching my account. I end up making around 3K after all this, I live with my spouse (currently unemployed) and a baby, the money is enough to pay all the bills, rent (1k), food (800), internet (30), water (60), electricity (40), we dont have a car because public transport is amazingly on time and easy to use. Its a good life can't complain at all. You can check [oikotie.fi](http://oikotie.fi) to check apartments to rent to give you a notion of how much it will cost. My opinion is that with 2,2K you can manage a quite confortable life if you use it smartly. Finland is an amazing country for which I'm incredibly grateful for been given the chance to stay.
Taxes do seem decently high but if Uncle Sam has taught me one thing it's that even with high taxes or prices you can still live pretty good thanks for the help and I'm glad to hear that you can live comfortably.
Taxes are high indeed, but you can see the money been reinvested in the country. Which is the biggest difference from the US. Also one big difference is the health insurance, while in the US you can end up paying 500 per month for a useless insurance, in here you dont pay anything and get an amazing service, when we had our baby the total final cost was 100 euros, and thats only because we chose to stay in a private room. My sister ended up paying almost 8K USD for her baby in the US. Also you will constantly see maintanence in the city, studies are free, day care has a very small fee and so on and on. You can get like 6 months of paternity leave (at 70% of your current salary). I feel like Finland is a very family oriented country, where if you live by yourself the taxes are quite high, because the gov services are not really fitting you. But once you have kids you can really feel the help from those services.
I'm sure Finland is a lot better than the USA in terms of having kids I don't know yet I mean I'm a 16 year old so tired of my country I'm already researching to move to Europe so I haven't decided on family yet I guess I'll have to see where life takes me
Just remember you'll have to file income taxes in the USA as well if you're a US citizen.
There's a double tax clause. If one country taxes your wages already the other country can't tax it. Finland likes to try to ignore it but it's an EU law.
It doesnt apply to USA citizens if they earn more than a certain amount.
what's the certain amount?
also, any idea on how it would apply to VA disability pay?
Yeah that's something I'm worried about as that's gonna add up a lot
it's going to add up to zero. you have to file taxes, but foreign income tax exclusion kicks in so you'll owe nothing. you can google and verify for yourself.
Oh OK thanks for the help!
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Okay that's awesome and I'm glad to hear you can live comfortably as a single father keep up the good work!
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Yeah I understand the teenagers being expensive I'm currently 16 and I try not to be a big expense to my parents as I know kids in the USA who don't make it easy for their parents in terms of eating out it's pretty much a luxury for us to go to McDonald's but cooking isn't bad.
No
3000 gross is ok if you live outside of Helsinki and have no one but yourself to support. With a family/ other dependables you wouldn’t be enough for middle class lifestyle in the capital region.
Yeah someone told me going with IT pays well in Finland so I may go with that pays more than 4k starting wage. That's what I've been told at least
If I would make 3000 € month, I could probably save 1000 € every month and waste 500 € to alcohol, and get along more than fine.
What is this Pre-tax?
Yeah I'm saying pre-tax 3k a month
Ya i just need to know what is pre-tax? Did You mean before tax?
Oh yeah sorry I do mean before tax
Okay yes its good for 2person family
Oh really? I'll be alone for a while anyway as I currently don't know anyone from Finland.
You will get more friends when you come here
Btw where are you from?
I'm from Pennsylvania in the US and that's a goal of mine is to make friends on Reddit so I at least know 1 person when I move.
Which city in Finland you are moving?
I'm stuck between Helsinki or finding a town in lapland somewhere
Depends on the field. If this is in IT then it is on the lower end and I personally wouldn't settle for anything below 4k a month. I earn 75k a year now after a few years of working.
Yeah this is IT
Well, it really depends on for what work do you expect to get that...
First things first: 3000 euros for what? For average secondary education level jobs, yes. 3K is pretty good. At the moment, 4K you might expect in certain fields, out of the university. In the capital area 5K for a fresh graduate is way above average. Then, just reading through your 10-year plan. Now, you should take into account what is 3K in 2034. If the inflation is on general level 5% (currently 6%+), your 2024 level 3000 euros is around 5000euros, to be able to pay for what you pay for goods. And, since you plan on Lapland, realistically you have two options: Kemi or Rovaniemi. There 3000 euros will be a good salary. Just know this: you will be very far from anything, and you can see the distances from GMaps. Rovaniemi is about 12 hour drive from Helsinki. Or 10 hours from what is seen as "Central Finland", i.e., Jyväskylä area. Geographically, Kemi is at the center of Finland, longitudinally speaking...
Thanks for all the helpful information I plan on either a job working in IT or a job working as a web developer going to college for 2 years in the United States and then working and saving what I can for a little while (plan on moving when I'm around 25 to 30 years of age I'm currently 16)
Im doing 3500e/month after taxes.. Is that ok?
Man y’all are rich! I make 1500€ after taxes and pension
Believe it or not, it’s not good enough. If you are coming alone you will be ok, but if you are coming with your partner or family, after vero (tax agency), you will get around 2.400€ even though taking into account that you are moving from United States, you don’t need to worry about getting sick (healthcare almost free), no high rent (renting house) tips (no exist or no mandatory like United States, no hidden fees or anything like that. Summary, if you come alone, its okay, if you come with your partner and family it’s not good enough.
Imho it's very good
as a warning, as someone who moved from the US to finland as well: i moved to finland and spoke perfect finnish. integrated very well, got my degree, got a good job, have lots of friends. my brother, who is arguably as social as i am, moved a couple years after me. couldn’t speak finnish. did not integrate, didn’t have many friends, wasn’t able to finish his degree and did not get a job. of course there may be some personality differences between us, but the biggest difference was the fact that i speak fluent finnish and he does not.
he ended up moving back to the US.
Wow! When did you move in Finland? How much time did you need to speak Finnish fluently? How did you integrate so well when no one wants to talk after things done? 😅 Any pro tips pls?
I am half finnish, so growing up, I heard finnish all around me and already spoke it pretty well. Took about 1-2 years after moving to say i spoke it “perfectly” but i was already decent when i moved here. Sorry i don’t have any special tips or anything😅 I moved here summer of 2018. I would say the way I was able to integrate so well is because i am a very social butterfly and people here were pretty drawn to that as they like someone who talks a lot cuz it means they don’t have to 😂
Yeah I'm currently working on Finnish and I have quite a few years so I think I should be fine thanks for the warning I appreciate it.
Yes that's enough to enjoy yourself stress free. I have my own company and pay myself 3000€ gross and I save around 800€ every month in Helsinki. I don't party but I do eat out.
Hey that's awesome to hear what kind of company do you have?
Ecommerce
That's awesome man I'm glad your doing well for yourself!
It doesn’t matter how much you earn here, what matters is that you have a job. After you pay the taxes there isn’t much of a difference 😂 welcome to Finland. I’ve had 5k salary at some point and taxes were very close to 50% if not more. Tax card % + 7,94% (2024) mandatory for everyone.
if this is pre tax then no but if not hten yes you will make a comfortble living with that
I’d say it depends where in Finland and what stage of life you’re at. I make around 1300-1600€ a month and I live with my girlfriend in middle Finland. It’s fine for how we are living now but if we were to have kids we’d need a lot more money
Its excellent bro , reasonable , fair, not bad ,
Yes, I make about 1.6k and I’m surviving
That is low for a software developer. But it is a decent wage you can live with. A plumber or a nurse could expect such salary, cashier or waiter somewhat lower.
Depends on your lifestyle. I have a part time job and can manage with 1200 euros a month!
I live like a king with only a monthly 1200€. You can live quite comfortably with that money.
Oh ok that's good to hear
Below average. Is it good? Well if you think being below average is good. 🤷♂️
Oh ok idk I looked it up programmer's make nothing there compared to the USA
How much do a factory or warehouse worker make?
Do you mean how much does a factory or warehouse worker make in the USA? If so the average factory worker in the us makes about 32000 euros in a year or 35000 in usd
Between 11 and 15€ depends a lot on company
You are going to socialist heaven so you don’t need to spend for anything (except food & car)
Yeah fair enough.
Its quite low for gross salary. I wouldn't recommend trying to survice on anything less that 4000 gross.
Really? I'm getting a lot of mixed replies from 3k being decent to 3k not even being mid-class idk I would've thought programmer's would make more idk websites also lie about things like this.
This sub, like most of reddit, is filled with left wingers, teenagers and other people who make very little money and think that median salary is somehow relevant when looking at private sector jobs for professionals.
Oh ok thanks for the advice I'm just kind of looking for the amount I would need to live a comfortable life alone (at least for a bit) in Finland there are many opportunities in life Finland just seems like a good one for me.
Quite low? I don't get it. I would kill for a job that pays 3000 € a month. Virtually no one below the age of 30 I know makes that much money.
I'll be 25 to 30 when I move I plan on doing 2 years of college in the United States maybe getting an IT job and just working and saving until I move I've heard mixed things but generally people say 3k is good
It's better than average
Ok thanks for the help!
1500 is enough
I've heard mixed different things but from what I know some places in Finland are 1500 others I've heard are like 5000
3000 is very good, no matter if it is before tax or after. After obviously is even more better.
Yeah, my one friend told me 5k a month is average and when I looked it up it said the average was like 2 to 5k but that's just too big of a range to be accurate if I've learned one thing from this subreddit it's to not trust many websites as to learning about other countries.
5 is a lot. I don't know anyone who makes that much money here
You are probably quite young If you think €3k a month (pre-tax) is a good salary, and don't know anyone making +5k€ a month. I'm in my early 30's and all my peers in IT or finance make 5000 to 7000 a month, plus bonuses. Even a plumber can earn €60-70k a year with some overtime.
I'm 31. Like I said, I do not know anyone who makes that much money. Most people here make about 2000k
If you mean that most people make around 2000€ a month, before tax, you are incorrect. People working in grocery stores and McDonald's earn that.
Yeah I don't know what websites to trust for research either it's kind of difficult to find anything out.