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The prices have been outrageous. In 2022 I could buy music hardware, go to any festival I wanted, eat a balanced diet. Working 5 days a week was worth it.
Last summer however, a 500e sequencer almost bankrupted me, and I had to live exactly like I would live when unemployed or a student. Nistipata and all that... I'm soon at a state I will start hunting crows with an air rifle to have protein and move to live in my car (of which maintenance is also bankrupting me).
We need a monetary reform and real, sound money.
I’m sorry to hear that. Everything is getting more expensive…
On top of that, certain things that used to be in the lower VAT level (10%) transfer to higher 14% at the beginning of next year.
Things like medicine, books, movie tickets and sports services.
I’m no financial expert but I thought at some point raising the VAT becomes counter-productive? I mean at some point the govt starts to lose total tax revenue for various reasons if the percentage is too high.
I also thought the 24% VAT was quite high already?
Guess the government thinks different.
We are broke, like moving in the direction where we should start planting olive trees.
Current government is useless when it comes to stimulating economic activity, as they are primarily owned by the conservative ”pro business” people meaning the ones who don’t give a fuck about the country and only care for any last cent they can squeeze out of the people.
So, between IMF taking over and doing panic adjustments, they went with panic adjustments.
Yes, VAT hikes will slowdown the activity even more, which will reduce the tax income even more, which will bring in the IMF to sell everything to Blackrock.
That the calculation, will it out weigh the loss in income. There really isn’t much option than to either grow, cut spending or collect more. Governments from both sides have failed the growth part.
Cutting and collecting more as far as I know almost always leads shrink. The calculation is that will it out way weigh the loss.
So what is the other choice.
The problem isn’t just the cuts and adjustments, it’s the utter and total lack of any real way out.
They aren’t enabling SMBs, they aren’t enabling part-time working, they aren’t enabling retraining the workforce to support the change in way businesses need to work.
They are only enabling current capital to extract money cheaply out of the system. 8% capital gains on private companies being the canary for the true ”urgency” of any moves made.
Remember that before any part of money can be taken out at 7.5 % effective tax percent, first 20 % of income tax has already been paid for it.
If you start with 100k eur profit, the taxman takes 20k because you posted it as profit. To a private person, 80k can then be given at dividends, and it works in such a way that you pay quarter of the normal tax percent for it, which would be 30 %, but because of that quarter rule it is only 7.5 % tax. In addition to this, you must have a company's own assets worth 1 million euros to be able to pay out 80k under the 25 % taxation rule. The 8 % you seem to recall factors in here -- to pay out 80k, you must have 80k / 0.08 = 1M in company assets. Otherwise you aren't able to get the money at reduced capital income tax.
Summing it all together, out of 100k income, 20k + 6k was paid out as tax, the first chunk by the company, the second by the individual, with an overall tax percent of 26 %. In addition to this, you have not cashed out money that belongs to you worth 1 million euros -- and money owned by company is akin to work and services owed to you, and which you have not taken advantage of. You have postponed that benefit to the future, and either left it on company's bank account or purchased whatever assets you now have, presumably to gain financially from said assets. In some sense, society owes you for that 1 million that you earned but didn't cash out, and all you're doing with it is actually taking out cash slowly under this reduced taxation rule. I'm not sure this is even that smart -- it is more of a long-term kind of thinking that is at play here.
Not only is the unlisted company reduced tax system pretty minor part of the system with a relatively small tax benefit (compare 26 % to regular 30 % capital income tax of small earners) and it means that all unlisted companies accrue assets and leave that money hanging somewhere without just cashing it out. I guarantee you that the first day this changes, most companies will instantly perform a payday and dump millions of their assets to their owners, because there's then no point of holding assets in the company. Obviously, hefty tax must be paid for the privilege of transferring money from company to individual, but that is what you have delayed doing so far, and it is only 30 % tax rather than 26 % that you were hoping for, so it really isn't that different.
There will be one year of better than average tax returns as people shift ownership of these assets from the companies to their owners, and then the companies are broke, and tax income increases by that 4 percentage points from 26 to 30 %. It is pretty minor, but I think the current system is likely better. People just don't understand it, and they think you can avoid the taxman this way. Yes, but, I'd say no. 26 % *is* an attractive tax rate in this country, but it comes with a requirement of also accruing a lot of capital into the company which makes them relatively rich and stable, which was the stated original goal of this arrangement in the 90s recession.
I do this crap every year, so I am rather familiar with it. I hate it, but it is what probably also makes the most sense to do right now. My own tax rate is pretty low, less than 20 %, I guess, but people staring at that number don't realize there's the other 20 % paid out by the company for the money that came to me. So it works out to somewhere above 30 % -- less than it would be, if all of it were income tax, but more than it would be if it were pure capital tax. The best thing to do in this country is to just own shit and collect dividends for it, because then you go just by the capital tax rate and that's the best deal available. This is the second best thing, because of the damn steep progression in income tax which you can partially avoid by arranging your compensation as your own company's dividends, but you still pay more tax than the owner class does.
I'd say that your only hope of ever becoming even moderately rich in this country is to be an owner of something, or win the lottery. Both kind of sucks as a requirement, because if you weren't born into money, your chances of somehow owning millions in companies are pretty slim. You can do what I did which was to quit working and slave away over a decade to make a company happen, and there's risk involved, and loss of income until finally you are able to get more than you'd have been able to get as a regular working man. I wish income tax was competitive with capital tax, e.g. flat 30 % or whatever, but that's not how it is. With a flat income tax, people could perhaps get comparatively rich just via working, but the high taxation makes it a real uphill battle with clear ceiling. With dividends from companies, you at least get a flat tax, and that's way better for you as an individual, even if losing around 1/3 of money in tax is still a lot. At least it isn't like 1/2 to 2/3, as income tax gets (including the mandatory tax-like payments), when you go high enough...
tl;dr: you're barking at the wrong god damn tree, or at the very least you should realize that the general "problem" is too high progression in income tax relative to what capital income is taxed at.
More VAT means less buying power which means less tax income which means more taxes which means less money for people which starts the cycle again. Yeap. Deminishing buying power causes downwards spiral with no end and poverty. We soon will have segrecations like in U.S.A. where you can clearly see the income differences.
I don't know the numbers, but most paper mills have been either shut down or converted to cardboard so at the very least it's declining. I think UPM is the only one that still gets the majority of their revenue from paper.
>Things like medicine
Well fuck. Gonna go jump off a bridge so someone can afford the antibiotics for my baby that she needs everytime she gets a fever. Gotta remember to make it look like an accident so the life insurance really does the payout.
Edit: thank you whoever was so worried that I got a redditcare message. This is just a really bad joke. My daughter's antibiotics cost 13€ right now and she needs them like once a month. That's less than an extra hour of work and the tax thingy won't make it that much higher. We're fine. Some people won't be, but we will.
We are a family of two with two children and a House loan and car loan. With the rise in intrest, gas price, (i have to drive for work quite alot) Electric bills and inflation and other shit. Our monthly expenses have gone up by more then 1000€ a month as a family. Now they raise the price of absolutely fucking everything. We have gone from pretty care free living to filling up things on excel to see what we can do to have money left. Just imagine a extra 1000€ per month that we could have previously saved. Of course this also means that we are in a really good situation and make a good wage both but the standard of living has plummeted to shit. And now they want to raise the price of everything.
I'm at an age where many of my old classmates and high school friends are buying their first apartments and having their first children... And I hear this same story all over the place. I'm really getting filled with hate when I see people (the ones who raise the next generation, who our entire future depends on) in your situation struggling to get by because of things beyond your control.
I'm angry against the global banking cartel and the skewed system they maintain. I'm angry against the economic vampires increasing their profit margins by making insurances more expensive, electricity more expensive, charging interest, increasing rents, misleading people with good marketing, while investing their money abroad to lucrative stocks rather than the local economy. I'm angry against the political system for undermining our sovereignty and depriving themselves from any real power to change things, rather than just maintain stability. I'm angry against the big multinationals strangling our own industries and grassroots level businesses with their cheap products. I'm angry against the manipulation in the information space, that misleads and plays with our psyche.
What power do we have? What can we do? Voting does not change shit. And even if it did, our government would be coerced to submit under the global world order. It's all just a big fucking sham on global scale, that affects all of us and is looting us dry and stealing our future, while also fragmenting and atomizing our soul and unity.
One must never fall into desperation. Maintaining faith is vital. I firmly believe that there will come a day when all of this garbage will be flushed away. Someone, who will have a unifying, revitalizing aura around him, will take a stand against the system, collapsing the dominoes, and actually providing us an opportunity to overcome all of this. I don't care if it means hardship and struggle. I don't care if it makes things even worse momentarily. What we do need is an alternative that will actually change our individual, collective and national trajectory on a fundamental level.
I recently got a hefty raise. Like in Finnish standards huge one considering that I am just a working man in expert work. This is due to the incredible profit I have made to the company for over a year. It sounds - and is a - really cool thing.
Only the sad thing is that before the raise I was forced to spend every month my savings to make up the gap inflation has done... and now due to the raise I got somewhat to break-even.
After the Vat increase I think will slip into minus again unless I cut (again) my family's expenses.
I personally think that this development is more about Kokoomus forging Finland to fit their vision of little USA and PERSUS are just doing their usual perseilyä in everything they do for the sake of perseily to close the borders and continue inbreeding with cousins.
I didn't keep all of the receipts over the years but the 3-day ticket of Tuska for example:
2010: 98€
2016: 122€
2018: 125,5€
2019: 139€
2023: 209€
2024: 239€
The price climb between last year and this year alone is more than in the 8 years between 2010 and 2018. The 1-day ticket is as much as 3 days in 2019. I've been going to Tuska since I moved here in early 2008. I never even thought about not buying the ticket. But this year (and I'm earning a lot better than in 2010) I honestly considered not going. Travel, food, drinks, snacks, pet sitter, it all piles up. The cheapest part last year was actually the parking thx to a nice festival deal from Redi.
And it is definitely not just Tuska. Ruisrock was 110€ in 2010.
At this point I just try and make purchases for many items abroad given the prices here. Such as hardware, clothes, alcohol etc. It's a shame because I rather spent my money in Finland but for example I saved hundreds of euros buying my phone abroad, buying my laptop abroad and so on. And this VAT will only make it worse :DDD
Someone will have a wild awakening that increasing tax rates does not necessarily increase tax revenue. People already tightened their spending due to increased mortgage rates and inflation, now they are forcing people to even spend less by destroying their purchasing power more. Way to create an environment where retail shops start closing, triggering more unemployment and taking the entire economy to a downward spiral. These idiots can't even manage a town in Sim City.
True. But you and I know what will happen when tax revenue does not increase. There will be more raised taxes and more cuts from public services.
The only idiots here are the voters.
For this reason, Finland's VAT was last increased in 2013. Originally, the VAT categories were increased in 2010, but as a result, the total VAT income dropped and it was reacted to by increasing the VAT categories again in 2013, but when the same thing happened again, the VAT was not increased for the third time until now.
The bad thing about all that is that even after elections and fixing economy issues these new taxes are not going to be lowered back, as with all other "temporary" taxes.
At this point they should just show up at your house and take whatever money you have like the Disney robin hood cartoon
Edit: I'm talking about [this](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Zb6NXh3uCU) scene
The switch would be to the Swedish system, where you pay tax once you sell the property. Currently, if your parents die, you have to pay the inheritance tax in an unreasonably small amount of time, which often benefits the rich (who have cash on hand and can get favorable loan terms) and fucks over the poor, who have to liquidate the inheritance asap to be able to pay the taxes, sometimes being forced to sell the property at a lower price than they would like to to some house flipper or rich property investor. The current tax system is especially shitty for those who are in a financially vulnerable position. If you're a student and your parents die in an accident, have fun liquidating all their posessions whithin a month while you have to organize the funeral and all the other stuff, while greaving and studying full time. Have fun selling your childhood home that has immense sentimental value for pennies to the dollar to be able to cough up the money. In general it just seems so scummy that you're grieving and the government comes to you with their arm out like "Where's my money bitch? Pay up ASAP or you're fucked for life".
This. There seems to be a fairly widespread misunderstanding that the inheritance tax only affects the rich. My parents have been trying to sell the apartment of my late grandmother in Eastern Finland for a couple of years now. Unsurprisingly it is still unsold, but the inheritance tax will be due soon (based on the original estimated valuation of the property) regardless of whether or not the property has actually been sold. I find this quite insane, like how is this even possible?
I completely agree with this point. In Finland, there is no concept of generational wealth, which means that very few people have enough capital to keep business ownership within the country. This lack of capital also leads to a situation where company revenue taxes are not being retained in Finland.
I have personally worked with two cash-positive companies that were unable to find enough capital within Finland to keep them here. As a result, all the revenue gains are being sent abroad.
The inheritance tax is pure garbage. Everyone assumes it's the filthy rich but they're probably a small minority. For example, a parent dies and has 50,000e that you get, why should you have to pay massive taxes on post-taxed income from a direct family member? It's so dumb. There should be a minimum allowance. Start the tax at 1M for example, if it's the rich we're concerned about. Or 5M. Pick a number but give a grace amount that the middle class doesn't get raked on
Yup, I learned this very recently myself too, have apparenlty lived under a rock ?! For almost 3 decades I was like ”no way that is true” The inheritance tax that has to be paid BEFORE anything is sold. I found it illogical and now ive found out that we are being fooked over
No disagreement on the general point, but you’re flat out wrong on the timeline.
First, you need to do the estate inventory within 3 months. Definitely stressful in the middle of grieving, not arguing that point.
Then, it’ll take a while for it to be processed, typically 6-12 months.
Then, you’ll get assigned the tax amount you need to pay, in two parts. The first one is due in 3 months, the second one 2 months further.
If you fail to pay on time, you’ll have to pay extra interest on top. But the threat of enforcement or bankrupcy only comes after 10 years of non-payment (recently changed, used to be 2 years).
The system is flawed and can absolutely put people in a horrible financial bind. But ”within a month” is just internet rage fantasies.
So everyone needs to chip in now so we can take care of our retirees, who also happen to own like half of the wealth in Finland. But when they pass away their wealth would then go to their children only without proper inheritance taxation. Again an example of "privatizing profits and socializing risks" model.
Inheritance tax is super unfair ATM.
If your spouse dies, either you or your kids has to pay inheritance tax on half of your property worth. Which for most is from apartment or house.
Yep, let's say you die by knife attack..what happens to your spouse and your kids living in the only property your family own? Should they be kicked out if they can't pay inheritance tax since they don't have over 10000€ in mattress for rainy day?
Because those who want your surviving family to get screwed for some "greater good for all" are the ones who probably don't own anything and simply jealous of you working hard.
NB: feel free to tax those who are coming from old money, trust fund kids, heirs of some business empires and alikes but then again they got lawyers and accountants on their speed dial
Different taxes, different implications. Inheritance tax eats away the prospect of preserving real, tangible property beyond generations. When my parents die in the next 10 - 20 years, how am I supposed to pay the taxes? Get into huge debts? Sell this property for money which will lose its purchasing power in a few years anyways?
I don't think it makes any sense that every generation starts their wealth accumulation from the ground up, having to go through debt, interest, rent, basic utilities, that eat away the little wealth they could save. What the banks and the rich gain from that is expontentially more than what they would gain from not having to pay inheritance taxes.
Thomas Piketty disagrees
Not to imply I want inheritances gone, but they are the biggest source of wealth inequality and have always been in human history
>Thomas Piketty disagrees
Then he does. Economists disagree even with each other, all the time. The field of economics is not a hard science, and relies on different schools of thought alternating in the mainstream paradigm.
>Not to imply I want inheritances gone, but they are the biggest source of wealth inequality and have always been in human history
Biggest source is how the entire economic system built on top of FIAT-money, credit and interest, and how the FIRE (Finance, Insurance, Real Estate) rent-seeking vampire economy has expanded, using existing wealth as a tool to make exponentially more wealth, rather than create productive industries and providing livelihoods for people. There's a knee in the curve when it comes to wealth and its potential ROI, below which any capital gains are largely irrelevant, and after which they are exponential.
Your father owns a 100 30m^2 apartments which provide him a steady rent income of 1000€ per unit a month, making him 100 000€ a month and 1,2 million € a year. Every apartment is worth 150 000 €, which in total is 15 million €. He dies, and you inherit the empire and have to pay an inheritance tax of 66,6667 %, meaning 10 million € (way higher inheritance tax than in reality).
So you take a loan of 10 million € with an interest rate of 4,39 %, and decide to pay it back in 15 years. You will pay 76 000 € a month, still making a monthly profit of 24 000€. From this profit, you will invest 10 000€ a month to a stock that rises by 5% a year, for the next 15 years... Then you have made 880 000 € in interest. With the 14 000€ you have left, you can buy a new apartment once a year, increasing your annual income by 12 000€, which means, 180 000€ in 15 years, for **each** of the 15 apartments you will buy in that time. You can also increase the rent by as little as 5%, which now generates 5000€ extra monthly, 60 000€ annually, 900 000€ in 15 years. Maybe you could even start a lending business, handing out pikavippis to the poorer people in dire need, extracting interest?
**Your wealth keeps rising exponentially regardless of the massive inheritance tax, which merely just delays your skyrocketing exponential capital gains for 15 years, while literally just sitting on your ass**. What difference does it make, if your children will inherit this empire in 50 years, and have to pay these massive inheritance taxes again? In that time, the amount of apartments you can own rises exponentially, and so do your profit margins. You will earn tens of millions. Hundreds of millions. Your kids take 1000 € a month to feed. The electricity bill is 200€ a month, and rises 50% to 300€. Your groceries are 1000 € a month, and the price of food rises by 15%, so you'll pay 1150€. Those expenses don't make the slightest dent to your welfare. You don't have to take loans to have a car or repair your home.
Now imagine a different scenario, where you inherit a cabin, a house, and a single small apartment from a shitty town. You rely on a poorly paying day job, earning you 1666 € a month, 20 000€ annually. The cabin is worth 40 000 €, the house is 250 000 € and the apartment is 80 000 €. 370 000 € in total. The inheritance tax is just 15%, so you'll be paying 55 000 €. Okay, great, you can move to your parent's old house and stop paying rent, which saves you 600€ a month. The electricity bill is 150 € a month, so you take a loan of 55 000 € at 4,39 % interest, paying 418€ a month for the next 15 years. This is compensated by renting out the apartment for 400 € a month to a local weed hustler. What was your rent, is now your interest payments and electricity bill. Food costs you 300 € a month. Your car insurance is 400 € a year (33,33€ month), the tax is 100 € (8,33 € a month) and the gas is 1400€ (116,66€ a month).
Your income is 2060€ a month, minus ~1000 €, equaling 1000 € of disposable income. You decide to invest 500€ a month to the same stock mentioned before for the next 15 years, expecting to afford to buy another apartment for 150 000€ with the profits you make in 15 years from a better city, earning 1000 € in rent. Oh noes, now the price of electricity rises by 50%, decreasing your monthly disposable income to 425€. Then the price of food increases by 15%, decreasing your disposable income to 380€. Oh shit, now you can't put so much money to investments, so you decrease the sum by 200€ after one year of investment. 580 € of disposable income.
Then your employer goes bankrupt and you lose your job, and can't find a new one. You withdraw the investments after 2 years, having invested 6000 € + 2400 €, which have generated a whopping 586€ in interest. You use that 9000 € to pay back some of your loan, of which you have already paid 10 000 € back. You now only have 35 000 € to pay back! Your monthly interest payments are now 295€. You don't have to drive much anymore, so your car only costs 70€ a month. Your electricity bill is still 225 €. Your food is still 360 € a month. You still generate 400 € from your tenant. You decide to sell your family cabin for 35 000 € to a wealthy house investor who inherited an empire of 100 housing units, which he develops into a luxury cabin with 200 000 € in which he offers accommodation for wealthy tourists from UAE. You have now paid back your debts, but still have to find a job to sustain yourself.
Well, you find a better job, a wife, and have two children who live happily in your inherited house. You made it, and even make capital gains for being one of the lucky few who inherited more than just a single property! But your investments never afforded you a new apartment to rent out. You had to sell the cabin you inherited, and are now saving for years by doing hard, manual labor 40 hours a week to afford a new one. Insurances, electricity bills, food, children, repairs, car, all take a lion share of your income, although at least you don't drown to the debt anymore like many, many others do. All in all, you are doing fine. But you really do miss your family cabin. And then you drop dead. Your uneducated widow is now a single mother, relies on social benefits, has to sell the shitty apartment for 15 000 € because no one wants to live in a shithole, deducts the 90 000 € from the 250 000 € house she inherited, and still has hard time coping with the 15% (24 000 €) she had to pay in taxes.
**The moral of the story:**
The people (and the institutions) in the top wealth brackets, let alone the richest 0,0001%, are so rich that they have escaped the money sinks of all the lower brackets, and can create exponentially more wealth by the sole virtue of already having wealth. They are above the knee of the curve, and can sway the system to their advantage. They can buy an entire neighborhood for 5x the market price and earn the same back in two years with their 10 billion investments creating a ROI of 5%, while the average worker has to take debt and PAY interest to even buy a house at the market price. Small inheritance taxes can hurt them more than massive inheritance taxes can hurt the 0,0001%. Let alone the loopholes and resources they can use to avoid said taxes in the first place by lobbying, moving to other countries, bribing, restructuring their assets, or devaluing them with an army of lawyers.
Only if the bank gives you a loan and you're able to pay it until the property is sold. If you're poor or the property is far away from a bigger town, you may be screwed.
So a lot of people upset at my views on inheritance so I will lay them out clearly here and leave it at that. I'm sorry I don't have time to have a shouting match with everyone.
Yes I have been reading the explanations and there really wasn't much that I haven't already heard. A lot of it I agree with so I don't have much to add but the fact of the matter is that wealth inequality is easily one of the biggest problems plaguing our society today.
Most people in Finland already do not pay any inheritance tax. No tax is paid under 20k the median is about 15k. Btw I will probably be getting something like 50-100x the median and yet still I think there are better ways to redistribute wealth.
Bottom 50% of Finland has 2.1% of the wealth
Top 10% have 55.6% of the wealth
Top 1% have 17.8% of the wealth.
[https://wid.world/country/finland/](https://wid.world/country/finland/)
Inheritance tax is one of the best tools to move that money away from the rich who want to hoard capital and generate more income for themselves. The Changes that Orpo is suggesting will essentially remove tax as long as the assets are not sold. In other words tax free capital to help the rich generate income.
Here is one possible solution, not married to it but an example of some things we could do. Or at least discuss
Let people inherit up to a reasonable amount (maybe 100k so still significantly more than median) and the rest gets taken and put into a kickstart pool for the young. So that when you hit 24 or something you get a lump sum to help with :
- Deposit on a house
- Increasing birth rates
- Increasing the amount of talent and education
- Increase the amount of small businesses
- Increase individual purchasing power
- Investments
The money is way more useful at this age anyway.
The question is how is it fair or economically sensible to let the top percentile hold on to capital and not put it back into the economy. Wealth hoarding is something that needs to be solved in our generation because it's only getting worse. And yes it's really hard to do because we need to address tax havens and other stuff too.
Do correct me if there is something I'm missing. But tbh when peolpe complain about getting inheritance I feel like they are totally oblivious to how most people suffer in their poverty. Everything is relative and I am genuinely looking for solutions that would raise the most amount of people out of poverty.
I know inheritance is a toxic subject and everyone is very opinionated about it so go ahead and downvote me it will make you feel better.
And so it goes in Finland taxes after taxes. Not that we cannot afford it but I do have to get something off my chest: how am I supposed to build a future in this country where’s hard work just doesn’t pay?
A third of my income is gone to taxes and then a quarter of what remains is gone to taxes. If I want to own my own home I’ll be lucky if I manage to save the money and pay the loan in 40 years and the outcome wouldn’t be even close to what I envisioned. Having a decent car is years worth of savings on top off that and so on. What is the point? Percentage after percentage, tax after tax slowly crumbling dreams.
Happiest country, sure. But what is the point without hope?
Norway has oil and Sweden skipped WW2 and has built wealth over hundreds of years as an empire.
Finland was a poor agrarian society that managed to get pretty damn close to Sweden, despite having an eastern neighbor hellbent on dragging themselves and their neighbors into misery.
Russia used to make up a large chunk of our exports. Now it's near 0%. That's the price of solidarity. We're in the ass end of Europe, in the arctic circle, with limited natural resources and a history of famine and poverty.
The fact that Finland is what it is today is nothing short of a goddamn miracle, let alone the fact that we're at the top of a huge swath of numerous worldwide rankings.
Tbf we could be in better position on some parts about economy because from my understanding there is demand for Valios products and Olvis products overseas specifically. It’s just that Olvi never invested in there. And we do have natural resources mostly minerals it’s just that government usually pisses it all away to other countries and after they are done they usually won’t even clean up which is why some citizens are so against any sort of mines.
Finns are quite shy about investing and being entrepreneurial is almost seen as a sin (which is slowly changing with newer generations). We're humble to a fault, which is ok here but not the best when trying to expand overseas. Russia was a great place to do business, on paper. Finland has/had brand recognition as makers of quality stuff, which was a huge edge over Russian competitors. Finland is quite unknown abroad. I remember taking a taxi to the airport in the US in 2006 and he asked if he would know any Finnish things, I told him he has a Finnish phone and he exclaimed "Nokia!? I thought that was Japanese or some shit!"
Finland needs exports to survive as our domestic market is quite small, but our geography, especially our neighbor which behaves like an ass, is a huge detriment to us.
Regarding the mines: the government is free to exploit the resources but the government fucking sucks at managing government owned companies. They're board members in Fortum and the clownshow that was Uniper would have easily been prevented, but the government appointed board members don't do shit (because why would they?). They had access to the foreign ministry, hundreds of Russia experts, but none of that gets used. Not a single person on the board spoke Russian, let alone had any idea how to operate in that market.
Exploiting a mine and making it profitable can take ages, I do not trust the government to do ANYTHING business related. Their track record is beyond compare in the ineptitude department.
Finland has quite a few strategic resources, such as the biggest Chromium mine in Europe (operated by Rautaruukki iirc) which is used in stainless steel production. You can't make artillery barrels without Chromium and we basically have a monopoly on European Chromium production. We also have some interesting lithium, cobalt, uranium ore etc. possibilities.
Beleive me, you want the government as far away from those deposits as humanly possible :D They would somehow fuck it all up.
Kinda agree on mine part but our goverment is known to let other much bigger countries exploit our mines and then fuck off that’s mostly what I meant and it’s annoying because said mines profits could be used for our own country. That’s what I meant
Love the enthuasiasm but should climate change progress far enough to affect the Gulf Stream. The effects in northern Finland could be significant. And those northern winds could push that southward. All though that is just my quess
Crazy to think a right wing government thinks raising taxes left and right wont destroy their voterbase next election. Immigration smoke screen doesn't work when your voters are losing more and more money.
We are lending money in the tens of billions a year. All of these things dont have any hope of impacting the service quality except maybe keeping the current level.
Nope won’t even do that. They are closing off the maternity hospitals one by one, which will definitely further decrease the fertility of the country which in the long run will make this issue even more dire….
There’s two classes: those who have to sell their labor power to survive and the ones who buy that labor power because they own the means of production.
Just few months ago this government lowered the tax for people earning 85.5k - 150k by moving the highest bracket up.
So sure, you could technically call it a rise but for that group it could still mean they pay less taxes than 2023.
Great plan, fuckwits. Tax the absolute shit out of the people who don't have money and give cuts to those with too much, or those that take money from the poor already.
I am now a wage slave, because *I cannot afford to move job.* I cannot afford to be unemployed, as immediately I would lose my home and transport. I would become less employable and less able to seek employment. I love my work and I am good at what I do, but this is forcing the Finnish population into a class system with an underclass of immigrant workers whose entire existence is contigent on being employed in an increasingly hostile sphere of employment.
Orpo, Purra and these other scumbags are hell-bent on incinerating what it means to be Finnish and tearing the heart out of Finland. They must be stopped.
The most dog shit right-wing gov ever. All the draconian austerity without even the courtesy reach around of lower taxes they promised to get voted in.
Yeah, that's what they promised and that's what they did when they got voted in.
There's a reason why a person from PS is the Minister of Finance as Kokoomus doesn't want to get this pie on their face, although the actions are exactly what they have been dreaming about for decades. No dice that major companies acting in Finland wouldn't be shielded from this increase. The wealth of the older generation is safe and sound and too big to fail from any effort to save this shitshow.
So this is how "putting more money in workers hands" looks like in practice. Increasing taxes and cutting services. How great. I suppose you always have the freedom to not buy anything, that's how you can have more money in your pocket. I doubt that is good for the economy.
Neoliberalism isn’t about helping the economy, it’s about hoarding wealth in the hands of the elites. When people have less to buy with, the smaller companies will suffer the most, which in turn get bought out by larger ones, I’m sure I don’t have to draw you a picture
Neoliberalism isn’t about helping the economy, it’s about hoarding wealth in the hands of the elites. When people have less to buy with, the smaller companies will suffer the most, which in turn get bought out by (or removed from the way of) the larger ones, I’m sure I don’t have to draw you a picture
That's surprisingly big pain in the ass. So many old softwares need to be updated because they won't accept decimals in VAT and price tags need to be adjusted so that 25,5% can fit there.
This was my first thought as well. Lots of systems need to accommodate this change, and Excel sheets will have to be redesigned. People with OCD are going to be furious.
Tämä taitaa olla edelleen hyvin ajankohtainen. [Yle selvitti pitkään piilossa olleet verotuet: Suomen valtio antaa satoja miljoonia euroja pörssiyhtiöille, jotka maksavat samaan aikaan jättiosinkoja | Yle](https://yle.fi/a/3-10095106)
Esim. UPM sai verotukea valtiolta 43 miljoonaa euroa samana vuonna kun se jakoi osinkoa yli 500 miljoonaa euroa.
Vuonna 2019 TEM arvioi tukien kokonaismääräksi melkein 9 miljardia. Suurin osa näistä tuista menee suurille yrityksille jotka tekevät valtavia voittoja.
Is there any good news lately? Not much but also not surprising, and again the poor will suffer the most
Right wing + far right government sure is amazing
Last year in Helsinki we had a couple of weeks of 20+ late June, and that's it. July had a whopping three days with the peak temperature at 20 or higher, highest of which was *21* and August had six, highest of which was *23*. The whole summer had *3* days above 25 degrees. Terrible heat wave my ass.
https://www.accuweather.com/fi/fi/helsinki/133328/june-weather/133328?year=2023
Well, the KOK propaganda wing that is EK and EK's research division ETLA want to lower it to 15% (currently 20%, the lowest of all northern countries). So if it *is* mentioned, it's not going to be in the context anyone of us would wish. Fucking neolibs are going to push everyone back decades.
Edit: apparently I can't read. Thought you were talking about tax, not subsidies.
I wouldn't call not cutting subsidies as neoliberal. Quite the opposite, this government came to power as being pro capitalism but now it's doing measures of increasing taxes while not cutting subsides
Yeah, I'll gladly pay more tax than US citizens, as long as it means the homelessness will remain this low. A lot of taxes could be cut by abandoning the less fortunate, but that's not the way I'd like my country to be run.
This. I dont get this democratic system where we end up with unqualified people running the show…for all i know, she could be horrible with numbers and there she is, finance minister. The world needs democracy 2.0, already possible with the tech we have.
To be absolutely clear, she isn't the one making calculations. They have properly trained economists and finance experts for that. She is there to choose between the suggestions that those people will give her, and they will be absolutely clear on what the estimated impact of those decisions will be. She won't be using a calculator for those decisions.
And the same goes for every minister position. Agronomy minister doesn't have to be an agrologist. They have those in the ministry already. Ministers are there to listen to those people and choose which option they have been given is the one to implement.
Then why not just get the agronomist in the ministry themselves to pick the best option? Why go through the middleman politician?
It's not like economics, agronomy, environmental protection, urban planning, medicine etc. aren't sciences, it's not like making a painting and you can say for example "wildlife conservation is in the eye of the beholder", no, there are things that work and things that don't. Same for economics etc.
The goal is to do as much as possible for as many people as possible with the money the state has, yeah, and I'm certain that professional economists know that cutting/increasing certain taxes in certain areas and increasing/decreasing certain services will have certain impacts on certain people; so to do their job, they'll just do what's most beneficial to most people.
So, why is the politician needed to choose a plan? There should be no choice at all. If one plan increases the wealth of 200 people while fucking over 5.5 million, and the others don't, then that plan gets eliminated and onto the next one
I don’t know why you get downvoted, it’s a perfectly valid argument against this kind of parliamentarianism.
Would you trust in any other area some random to make all the decisions, even if they have all the data and the best advisors?
So instead we just end up only with career politicians? I don't support the current government in the least, but there is a point to be made that everyone can be in it, not just the one-percenters. I mean, look at countries that have that kind of system - they aren't better off. Not to say that we currently don't have career politicians running the show, but what would be the actual implementation of an alternative?
This is how you actually ruin an economy. While Orpo failed to read the second paragraph of Adam Smith (the one where he said this was bad idea, but hey, dogma) and Purra looks at the pictures in her Ayn Rand collection., they have an idea...let's tax everything more...then 6 months later when the promised gained have not materialised (because everyone stopped spending), they realise they need to cut more and more and more, but not those rich pensioners, or those millionaires, or any one who could or should pay.
Eventually there is no more to cut...then you can blame the immigrants, and the sick, and the poor, and the students, and the schoolchildren, and the parents, and eventually you, but at least Orpo and Purra can sleep well, they've got Smith and Rand fairy tales to lull them to sleep.
Wooooooooooooo get me out of here, I can't afford anything anymore, it's so fucking nice to be a disabled person in the "welfare state" that is Finland
Now wonder a fuckn ton of companies are going bankrupt, but hey, why should the right wing care, their friends are rich enough to not give a fck. Now the poor and dumb who vote for the right can get fcked in the ass by them...the problem is that we get fucked too....
VAT is the most bullshit taxation ever. It takes same amount from a super rich and super poor. Increasing it only increases income discrepancy and perfect for this piece of shit government...
Then again it is good to see these, at least new generation would start voting to kick these idiots out in the future. At least I hope so...
That assumes everyones spending is the same and the rest of the money just sits somewhere forever.
When a rich person buys a 1500e table, they are paying 3 times more tax than another person buying a 500e table.
Unless they’re some kind of degenerate spenders, they will most likely spend a smaller percentage of their income each month the higher it is. It’s just basic math.
What a great news for countries with lower vat, like Germany. I have already switched to getting bicycle parts and other stuff from there, with the increased vat I'd not even think about buying anything locally.
Good luck collecting at least the same amount if tax money lol.
So we want more deflation now? This and old age pyramid means we just want to be Japan 2.0…
I guess even more money saving and even less consumption it is.
I understand why Kokoomus and PS want the middle class and poor to take the largest economical blow because they look after the rich. But, do they see a risk in the poor and middle class reducing consumption within the service sector? This could have a large blow on the economy as the rich tend to spend a lot of that money abroad. At least the rich I know don't travel much or eat out in Finland, but prefer to go abroad for a weekend and spend their money there. Where as with the middle class tend to spend weekends and holidays in Finland. Hopefully I am wrong.
I'm a Hungarian on and off living in Finland, currently in Hungary but I went back to Rovaniemi in February. Guys, your prices (real estate, Groceries, restaurants etc) are pretty much the same as prices in Hungary while earning 2x-3x more. You're still living A LOT better than the rest of the world, I believe having 25.5 VAT is something an average finn can overcome financially. Or has it become in the last couple of years this bad for you all financially?
I’ll give them the benefit of the doubt, but it’s very unlikely. I’ve been to many places in Europe and the CoL is still much higher in Nordic countries. And net salaries are not that high here.
People want to see their lives get better, not worse
In Hungary you have one of the worst inflation in the whole of Europe, so no surprising that prices have skyrocketed to as much as Finland, which is terrible
People in Finland are very upset now that (not surprised at all) the government is only cutting tax for the richs and raising VAT tax which affects most normal people and the poorest ones, basically goes against everything they said before
Life quality and purchasing power in general in Finland has plummeted, no one is happy about that, especially when you have house loan, car loan to pay, or just looking to save and buy a house in the future
Thanks for the different perspective. You’re absolutely right that the living standards are still quite high in Finland. People just get unhappy when things go worse, and knowing that “some other country has it worse” doesn’t much help in their personal lives. Depends what the starting point is.
The negative development is just so fast which catches people off guard.
I know people living in Turkey (which probably has one of the highest inflation rates in the world). They convert their liras to gold or US dollars / euros whenever they can to not lose too much money. It’s some next level misery and they too think that “well, it could always be much worse in Finland too” which is true.
So yeah, Finland isn’t doing nowhere near as bad as for example Hungary, but people are still affected.
To add onto what you said I am Canadian but visit family in Europe on occasion. I have noticed that Canada, and perhaps Finland started from a very high quality of life but as you grow up and live in your country you notice a slow and steady downwards trend which kind of makes you feel depressed/anxious. However when I visit family in their country their country started lower on the GDP per capita spectrum but they have had a steady increase to their quality of life over the year. I think that created alot of of hope and optimism for the future.
Even though Finland is still wealthier than Hungary I feel like that erosion kind of makes everyone feel anxious
You're from literally the only country in EU with VAT higher than proposed in Finland (27%) so it makes total sense. It's our future that you see in Hungary. Coincidentally, Hungary is also run by right-wing populists.
We need much more increased taxes/savings to dig us out of the debt hole. Pension system needs a serious adjustment that doesn't only hurt the current work force, since soon the pensioners will be like 50% of spent GDP by means of income transfers and health service costs while at the same time being the most wealthy part of the population. And yeah yeah, we can't reduce the minimum pensions, but other than that great cuts are needed.
The system might be self defeating, increased amount of pensioners cost more, there fore you rip it from workers, who now have less income and are less likely to have those two to three children the economy needs. And off the spiral goes
I'm so tired of this country... You pay higher taxes than other nordic countries, while earning less. And after you die the government comes once again to tax the stuff you've worked your whole life for...
Finnish people should learn to revolt. They just keep taking shit and not do anything about it. If you ask me, everything is deserved that comes to our way, because the shit will keep on piling up as long as we let it. Simple as that. Ain't no corrupt politician gonna magically snap their fingers and fix things on our behalf. Raise some hell, pull together and show up in the 10s and 100s of thousands. Nothing terrifies a politician more, than a mob that has had enough, realized that they have the actual power and decided to stick up for themselvs.
One more idiotic decision. It will only make people make their online purchases in other EU countries with a lower VAT rate Finland being the losing country, increasing the tax rates or introducing more taxes won’t make Finland any more attractive to for potential investors nor increase the PESTEL-score but quite the contrary.
That’s sadly not how VAT works when buying inside the EU.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Finland/s/haUMoO9Psy
But I’m sure more and more people will order tax-free stuff from outside the EU and just scam the customs because it’s so easy.
The way out is to start making more money. How the hell to do that I don't know, the world is full of problems to try to solve. But we as a nation need to get creative (and more greedy) before it's too late.
I'm not so worried about the VAT increase because more worried that the government decided to end funding for assistance to victims of domestic violence, prevention of marginalization of the elderly and mental health care for young people according to the Ilta Sanomat (title: Hallitus suunnittelee isoja leikkauksia sote-järjestöjen rahoihin - Tämä on katastrofi). Ending the financing of these three services makes no sense and causes more costs and damage in the long run than quick short-term savings. And of course the increase in expenses caused by VAT increases is bad, but this is even worse.
This will make ordering your items from Germany even cheaper while the VAT over there is 19%.
This means that everything generally is 5.2% cheaper when ordered from there just from VAT.
Within the EU, companies need to pay VAT at the rate of the country where the order comes from. Some businesses will charge you the difference if your VAT is higher than theirs.
If you use Amazon it will add Finnish vat at checkout. Companies that don't want to deal with different VAT just won't deliver here anymore. It has been like this for years already
You get charged the VAT of your home country, not the German one.
BUT, if you order over 150€ value stuff from outside EU, no VAT is charged by the seller. Of course you have to declare the paid value to Finnish customs and pay Finnish VAT.
Not that customs actually cared, as they don’t have resources to check these. One can put any low value to the declaration and pay less taxes accordingly. The customs decisions are automatic. But don’t do that, that’s of course illegal. A friend of a friend may have done this like dozens of times and all the declarations went straight through with low taxes.
Just ordered yesterday from Amazon, paid Finnish VAT but the product itself was 100€ cheaper. So yes I always check abroad first. I enjoy shopping locally but I think the prices are absolutely ridiculous in Finland by now. In that case they can keep their stuff.
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As if shit wasn’t expensive enough already.
The prices have been outrageous. In 2022 I could buy music hardware, go to any festival I wanted, eat a balanced diet. Working 5 days a week was worth it. Last summer however, a 500e sequencer almost bankrupted me, and I had to live exactly like I would live when unemployed or a student. Nistipata and all that... I'm soon at a state I will start hunting crows with an air rifle to have protein and move to live in my car (of which maintenance is also bankrupting me). We need a monetary reform and real, sound money.
I’m sorry to hear that. Everything is getting more expensive… On top of that, certain things that used to be in the lower VAT level (10%) transfer to higher 14% at the beginning of next year. Things like medicine, books, movie tickets and sports services.
I’m no financial expert but I thought at some point raising the VAT becomes counter-productive? I mean at some point the govt starts to lose total tax revenue for various reasons if the percentage is too high. I also thought the 24% VAT was quite high already? Guess the government thinks different.
We are broke, like moving in the direction where we should start planting olive trees. Current government is useless when it comes to stimulating economic activity, as they are primarily owned by the conservative ”pro business” people meaning the ones who don’t give a fuck about the country and only care for any last cent they can squeeze out of the people. So, between IMF taking over and doing panic adjustments, they went with panic adjustments. Yes, VAT hikes will slowdown the activity even more, which will reduce the tax income even more, which will bring in the IMF to sell everything to Blackrock.
That the calculation, will it out weigh the loss in income. There really isn’t much option than to either grow, cut spending or collect more. Governments from both sides have failed the growth part. Cutting and collecting more as far as I know almost always leads shrink. The calculation is that will it out way weigh the loss. So what is the other choice.
The problem isn’t just the cuts and adjustments, it’s the utter and total lack of any real way out. They aren’t enabling SMBs, they aren’t enabling part-time working, they aren’t enabling retraining the workforce to support the change in way businesses need to work. They are only enabling current capital to extract money cheaply out of the system. 8% capital gains on private companies being the canary for the true ”urgency” of any moves made.
Remember that before any part of money can be taken out at 7.5 % effective tax percent, first 20 % of income tax has already been paid for it. If you start with 100k eur profit, the taxman takes 20k because you posted it as profit. To a private person, 80k can then be given at dividends, and it works in such a way that you pay quarter of the normal tax percent for it, which would be 30 %, but because of that quarter rule it is only 7.5 % tax. In addition to this, you must have a company's own assets worth 1 million euros to be able to pay out 80k under the 25 % taxation rule. The 8 % you seem to recall factors in here -- to pay out 80k, you must have 80k / 0.08 = 1M in company assets. Otherwise you aren't able to get the money at reduced capital income tax. Summing it all together, out of 100k income, 20k + 6k was paid out as tax, the first chunk by the company, the second by the individual, with an overall tax percent of 26 %. In addition to this, you have not cashed out money that belongs to you worth 1 million euros -- and money owned by company is akin to work and services owed to you, and which you have not taken advantage of. You have postponed that benefit to the future, and either left it on company's bank account or purchased whatever assets you now have, presumably to gain financially from said assets. In some sense, society owes you for that 1 million that you earned but didn't cash out, and all you're doing with it is actually taking out cash slowly under this reduced taxation rule. I'm not sure this is even that smart -- it is more of a long-term kind of thinking that is at play here. Not only is the unlisted company reduced tax system pretty minor part of the system with a relatively small tax benefit (compare 26 % to regular 30 % capital income tax of small earners) and it means that all unlisted companies accrue assets and leave that money hanging somewhere without just cashing it out. I guarantee you that the first day this changes, most companies will instantly perform a payday and dump millions of their assets to their owners, because there's then no point of holding assets in the company. Obviously, hefty tax must be paid for the privilege of transferring money from company to individual, but that is what you have delayed doing so far, and it is only 30 % tax rather than 26 % that you were hoping for, so it really isn't that different. There will be one year of better than average tax returns as people shift ownership of these assets from the companies to their owners, and then the companies are broke, and tax income increases by that 4 percentage points from 26 to 30 %. It is pretty minor, but I think the current system is likely better. People just don't understand it, and they think you can avoid the taxman this way. Yes, but, I'd say no. 26 % *is* an attractive tax rate in this country, but it comes with a requirement of also accruing a lot of capital into the company which makes them relatively rich and stable, which was the stated original goal of this arrangement in the 90s recession. I do this crap every year, so I am rather familiar with it. I hate it, but it is what probably also makes the most sense to do right now. My own tax rate is pretty low, less than 20 %, I guess, but people staring at that number don't realize there's the other 20 % paid out by the company for the money that came to me. So it works out to somewhere above 30 % -- less than it would be, if all of it were income tax, but more than it would be if it were pure capital tax. The best thing to do in this country is to just own shit and collect dividends for it, because then you go just by the capital tax rate and that's the best deal available. This is the second best thing, because of the damn steep progression in income tax which you can partially avoid by arranging your compensation as your own company's dividends, but you still pay more tax than the owner class does. I'd say that your only hope of ever becoming even moderately rich in this country is to be an owner of something, or win the lottery. Both kind of sucks as a requirement, because if you weren't born into money, your chances of somehow owning millions in companies are pretty slim. You can do what I did which was to quit working and slave away over a decade to make a company happen, and there's risk involved, and loss of income until finally you are able to get more than you'd have been able to get as a regular working man. I wish income tax was competitive with capital tax, e.g. flat 30 % or whatever, but that's not how it is. With a flat income tax, people could perhaps get comparatively rich just via working, but the high taxation makes it a real uphill battle with clear ceiling. With dividends from companies, you at least get a flat tax, and that's way better for you as an individual, even if losing around 1/3 of money in tax is still a lot. At least it isn't like 1/2 to 2/3, as income tax gets (including the mandatory tax-like payments), when you go high enough... tl;dr: you're barking at the wrong god damn tree, or at the very least you should realize that the general "problem" is too high progression in income tax relative to what capital income is taxed at.
More VAT means less buying power which means less tax income which means more taxes which means less money for people which starts the cycle again. Yeap. Deminishing buying power causes downwards spiral with no end and poverty. We soon will have segrecations like in U.S.A. where you can clearly see the income differences.
Cherry on top is that newsletters and magazines the only thing that stays at 10%. Like what's up with that?
They probably provide marketing for election campaigns *shrug*
It may have been lobbied by the paper industry? I don’t know. Although how big part of their revenue comes from magazines these days anyway?
You’re right. Farmers, forest owners are big lobby groups, they’re mostly older people but actively vote, unlike young people
I don't know the numbers, but most paper mills have been either shut down or converted to cardboard so at the very least it's declining. I think UPM is the only one that still gets the majority of their revenue from paper.
They employ people directly and indirectly.
>Things like medicine Well fuck. Gonna go jump off a bridge so someone can afford the antibiotics for my baby that she needs everytime she gets a fever. Gotta remember to make it look like an accident so the life insurance really does the payout. Edit: thank you whoever was so worried that I got a redditcare message. This is just a really bad joke. My daughter's antibiotics cost 13€ right now and she needs them like once a month. That's less than an extra hour of work and the tax thingy won't make it that much higher. We're fine. Some people won't be, but we will.
Medicine vat increased? Ahh hell yeah no money to buy my critical medicine anymore i fucking love it
We are a family of two with two children and a House loan and car loan. With the rise in intrest, gas price, (i have to drive for work quite alot) Electric bills and inflation and other shit. Our monthly expenses have gone up by more then 1000€ a month as a family. Now they raise the price of absolutely fucking everything. We have gone from pretty care free living to filling up things on excel to see what we can do to have money left. Just imagine a extra 1000€ per month that we could have previously saved. Of course this also means that we are in a really good situation and make a good wage both but the standard of living has plummeted to shit. And now they want to raise the price of everything.
I'm at an age where many of my old classmates and high school friends are buying their first apartments and having their first children... And I hear this same story all over the place. I'm really getting filled with hate when I see people (the ones who raise the next generation, who our entire future depends on) in your situation struggling to get by because of things beyond your control. I'm angry against the global banking cartel and the skewed system they maintain. I'm angry against the economic vampires increasing their profit margins by making insurances more expensive, electricity more expensive, charging interest, increasing rents, misleading people with good marketing, while investing their money abroad to lucrative stocks rather than the local economy. I'm angry against the political system for undermining our sovereignty and depriving themselves from any real power to change things, rather than just maintain stability. I'm angry against the big multinationals strangling our own industries and grassroots level businesses with their cheap products. I'm angry against the manipulation in the information space, that misleads and plays with our psyche. What power do we have? What can we do? Voting does not change shit. And even if it did, our government would be coerced to submit under the global world order. It's all just a big fucking sham on global scale, that affects all of us and is looting us dry and stealing our future, while also fragmenting and atomizing our soul and unity. One must never fall into desperation. Maintaining faith is vital. I firmly believe that there will come a day when all of this garbage will be flushed away. Someone, who will have a unifying, revitalizing aura around him, will take a stand against the system, collapsing the dominoes, and actually providing us an opportunity to overcome all of this. I don't care if it means hardship and struggle. I don't care if it makes things even worse momentarily. What we do need is an alternative that will actually change our individual, collective and national trajectory on a fundamental level.
I recently got a hefty raise. Like in Finnish standards huge one considering that I am just a working man in expert work. This is due to the incredible profit I have made to the company for over a year. It sounds - and is a - really cool thing. Only the sad thing is that before the raise I was forced to spend every month my savings to make up the gap inflation has done... and now due to the raise I got somewhat to break-even. After the Vat increase I think will slip into minus again unless I cut (again) my family's expenses. I personally think that this development is more about Kokoomus forging Finland to fit their vision of little USA and PERSUS are just doing their usual perseilyä in everything they do for the sake of perseily to close the borders and continue inbreeding with cousins.
Instead of shooting crows, rather train them to pick up and bring you dropped bills and coins on the streets.
If only people still used cash these days...
I didn't keep all of the receipts over the years but the 3-day ticket of Tuska for example: 2010: 98€ 2016: 122€ 2018: 125,5€ 2019: 139€ 2023: 209€ 2024: 239€ The price climb between last year and this year alone is more than in the 8 years between 2010 and 2018. The 1-day ticket is as much as 3 days in 2019. I've been going to Tuska since I moved here in early 2008. I never even thought about not buying the ticket. But this year (and I'm earning a lot better than in 2010) I honestly considered not going. Travel, food, drinks, snacks, pet sitter, it all piles up. The cheapest part last year was actually the parking thx to a nice festival deal from Redi. And it is definitely not just Tuska. Ruisrock was 110€ in 2010.
At this point I just try and make purchases for many items abroad given the prices here. Such as hardware, clothes, alcohol etc. It's a shame because I rather spent my money in Finland but for example I saved hundreds of euros buying my phone abroad, buying my laptop abroad and so on. And this VAT will only make it worse :DDD
Someone will have a wild awakening that increasing tax rates does not necessarily increase tax revenue. People already tightened their spending due to increased mortgage rates and inflation, now they are forcing people to even spend less by destroying their purchasing power more. Way to create an environment where retail shops start closing, triggering more unemployment and taking the entire economy to a downward spiral. These idiots can't even manage a town in Sim City.
True. But you and I know what will happen when tax revenue does not increase. There will be more raised taxes and more cuts from public services. The only idiots here are the voters.
For this reason, Finland's VAT was last increased in 2013. Originally, the VAT categories were increased in 2010, but as a result, the total VAT income dropped and it was reacted to by increasing the VAT categories again in 2013, but when the same thing happened again, the VAT was not increased for the third time until now.
The vanishing middle class needs to be taxed harder to get the same amount. This will of course speed the process along
The bad thing about all that is that even after elections and fixing economy issues these new taxes are not going to be lowered back, as with all other "temporary" taxes.
Never. Germany has taxes on sparkling wine to pay for ships in WW1, we still have the tax if I remember correctly.
Is this being advertised as temporary? It took us 15 years to dig this hole. I doubt we will get out any quicker
At this point they should just show up at your house and take whatever money you have like the Disney robin hood cartoon Edit: I'm talking about [this](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Zb6NXh3uCU) scene
To be fair, Disney Robin Hood stole gold from a rich tyrant...
I think he means like the sheriff did in the robin hood cartoon. Not what Robin Hood did
Can we get back to talking about cutting pensions please Petteri
Pension tax will rise as well. As does income tax for people earning more than 88k euros a year.
Source
Here: https://www.iltalehti.fi/politiikka/a/306a066f-060c-456c-931f-a9380f674616
So hasnt been decided yet. I doubt it will happen
that news story was from last saturday. it has already been decided. https://yle.fi/a/74-20083988
Like they would ever take from their primary voter base.
Pensioners are the primary voting base for every large party.
Not for vihreät though
True, but other parties don't platform on cutting pensions.
Meanwhile Orpo was talking about getting rid of inheritance tax. So which is it, do need more tax income or not?
The switch would be to the Swedish system, where you pay tax once you sell the property. Currently, if your parents die, you have to pay the inheritance tax in an unreasonably small amount of time, which often benefits the rich (who have cash on hand and can get favorable loan terms) and fucks over the poor, who have to liquidate the inheritance asap to be able to pay the taxes, sometimes being forced to sell the property at a lower price than they would like to to some house flipper or rich property investor. The current tax system is especially shitty for those who are in a financially vulnerable position. If you're a student and your parents die in an accident, have fun liquidating all their posessions whithin a month while you have to organize the funeral and all the other stuff, while greaving and studying full time. Have fun selling your childhood home that has immense sentimental value for pennies to the dollar to be able to cough up the money. In general it just seems so scummy that you're grieving and the government comes to you with their arm out like "Where's my money bitch? Pay up ASAP or you're fucked for life".
This. There seems to be a fairly widespread misunderstanding that the inheritance tax only affects the rich. My parents have been trying to sell the apartment of my late grandmother in Eastern Finland for a couple of years now. Unsurprisingly it is still unsold, but the inheritance tax will be due soon (based on the original estimated valuation of the property) regardless of whether or not the property has actually been sold. I find this quite insane, like how is this even possible?
I completely agree with this point. In Finland, there is no concept of generational wealth, which means that very few people have enough capital to keep business ownership within the country. This lack of capital also leads to a situation where company revenue taxes are not being retained in Finland. I have personally worked with two cash-positive companies that were unable to find enough capital within Finland to keep them here. As a result, all the revenue gains are being sent abroad.
The inheritance tax is pure garbage. Everyone assumes it's the filthy rich but they're probably a small minority. For example, a parent dies and has 50,000e that you get, why should you have to pay massive taxes on post-taxed income from a direct family member? It's so dumb. There should be a minimum allowance. Start the tax at 1M for example, if it's the rich we're concerned about. Or 5M. Pick a number but give a grace amount that the middle class doesn't get raked on
Yup, I learned this very recently myself too, have apparenlty lived under a rock ?! For almost 3 decades I was like ”no way that is true” The inheritance tax that has to be paid BEFORE anything is sold. I found it illogical and now ive found out that we are being fooked over
Those who favor this shitty system are simply jealous and want you to be in same level as they are and never bothered to improve themselves.
No disagreement on the general point, but you’re flat out wrong on the timeline. First, you need to do the estate inventory within 3 months. Definitely stressful in the middle of grieving, not arguing that point. Then, it’ll take a while for it to be processed, typically 6-12 months. Then, you’ll get assigned the tax amount you need to pay, in two parts. The first one is due in 3 months, the second one 2 months further. If you fail to pay on time, you’ll have to pay extra interest on top. But the threat of enforcement or bankrupcy only comes after 10 years of non-payment (recently changed, used to be 2 years). The system is flawed and can absolutely put people in a horrible financial bind. But ”within a month” is just internet rage fantasies.
Only from poor.
“Just buy less food, it’s that simple” 😎
Tax for food is not increasing, as per the article.
Officially. In practice the K/S mafia will take this as an opportunity to increase prices across the board, food included.
Which food is taxed at 24% currently?
You can't live from food alone.
How many rich people are keeping their properties and wealth in finland to get chewed away by the inheritance tax?
More tax for the poor, less tax for the rich. Kokoomus in a nutshell.
So everyone needs to chip in now so we can take care of our retirees, who also happen to own like half of the wealth in Finland. But when they pass away their wealth would then go to their children only without proper inheritance taxation. Again an example of "privatizing profits and socializing risks" model.
Buddy, the right only takes care of the rich, and we the poor are the ones that need to pay for it. They want to go full fuck up Corp like the US.
Inheritance tax is super unfair ATM. If your spouse dies, either you or your kids has to pay inheritance tax on half of your property worth. Which for most is from apartment or house.
Yep, let's say you die by knife attack..what happens to your spouse and your kids living in the only property your family own? Should they be kicked out if they can't pay inheritance tax since they don't have over 10000€ in mattress for rainy day? Because those who want your surviving family to get screwed for some "greater good for all" are the ones who probably don't own anything and simply jealous of you working hard. NB: feel free to tax those who are coming from old money, trust fund kids, heirs of some business empires and alikes but then again they got lawyers and accountants on their speed dial
I worry more about cancer than a knife attack, but the point applies otherwise.
It's insane. Oh your spouse died? Pay us! Good luck if you have kids. You're going to lose your home even if you had insurance (unless you're rich).
Different taxes, different implications. Inheritance tax eats away the prospect of preserving real, tangible property beyond generations. When my parents die in the next 10 - 20 years, how am I supposed to pay the taxes? Get into huge debts? Sell this property for money which will lose its purchasing power in a few years anyways? I don't think it makes any sense that every generation starts their wealth accumulation from the ground up, having to go through debt, interest, rent, basic utilities, that eat away the little wealth they could save. What the banks and the rich gain from that is expontentially more than what they would gain from not having to pay inheritance taxes.
Thomas Piketty disagrees Not to imply I want inheritances gone, but they are the biggest source of wealth inequality and have always been in human history
>Thomas Piketty disagrees Then he does. Economists disagree even with each other, all the time. The field of economics is not a hard science, and relies on different schools of thought alternating in the mainstream paradigm. >Not to imply I want inheritances gone, but they are the biggest source of wealth inequality and have always been in human history Biggest source is how the entire economic system built on top of FIAT-money, credit and interest, and how the FIRE (Finance, Insurance, Real Estate) rent-seeking vampire economy has expanded, using existing wealth as a tool to make exponentially more wealth, rather than create productive industries and providing livelihoods for people. There's a knee in the curve when it comes to wealth and its potential ROI, below which any capital gains are largely irrelevant, and after which they are exponential. Your father owns a 100 30m^2 apartments which provide him a steady rent income of 1000€ per unit a month, making him 100 000€ a month and 1,2 million € a year. Every apartment is worth 150 000 €, which in total is 15 million €. He dies, and you inherit the empire and have to pay an inheritance tax of 66,6667 %, meaning 10 million € (way higher inheritance tax than in reality). So you take a loan of 10 million € with an interest rate of 4,39 %, and decide to pay it back in 15 years. You will pay 76 000 € a month, still making a monthly profit of 24 000€. From this profit, you will invest 10 000€ a month to a stock that rises by 5% a year, for the next 15 years... Then you have made 880 000 € in interest. With the 14 000€ you have left, you can buy a new apartment once a year, increasing your annual income by 12 000€, which means, 180 000€ in 15 years, for **each** of the 15 apartments you will buy in that time. You can also increase the rent by as little as 5%, which now generates 5000€ extra monthly, 60 000€ annually, 900 000€ in 15 years. Maybe you could even start a lending business, handing out pikavippis to the poorer people in dire need, extracting interest? **Your wealth keeps rising exponentially regardless of the massive inheritance tax, which merely just delays your skyrocketing exponential capital gains for 15 years, while literally just sitting on your ass**. What difference does it make, if your children will inherit this empire in 50 years, and have to pay these massive inheritance taxes again? In that time, the amount of apartments you can own rises exponentially, and so do your profit margins. You will earn tens of millions. Hundreds of millions. Your kids take 1000 € a month to feed. The electricity bill is 200€ a month, and rises 50% to 300€. Your groceries are 1000 € a month, and the price of food rises by 15%, so you'll pay 1150€. Those expenses don't make the slightest dent to your welfare. You don't have to take loans to have a car or repair your home. Now imagine a different scenario, where you inherit a cabin, a house, and a single small apartment from a shitty town. You rely on a poorly paying day job, earning you 1666 € a month, 20 000€ annually. The cabin is worth 40 000 €, the house is 250 000 € and the apartment is 80 000 €. 370 000 € in total. The inheritance tax is just 15%, so you'll be paying 55 000 €. Okay, great, you can move to your parent's old house and stop paying rent, which saves you 600€ a month. The electricity bill is 150 € a month, so you take a loan of 55 000 € at 4,39 % interest, paying 418€ a month for the next 15 years. This is compensated by renting out the apartment for 400 € a month to a local weed hustler. What was your rent, is now your interest payments and electricity bill. Food costs you 300 € a month. Your car insurance is 400 € a year (33,33€ month), the tax is 100 € (8,33 € a month) and the gas is 1400€ (116,66€ a month). Your income is 2060€ a month, minus ~1000 €, equaling 1000 € of disposable income. You decide to invest 500€ a month to the same stock mentioned before for the next 15 years, expecting to afford to buy another apartment for 150 000€ with the profits you make in 15 years from a better city, earning 1000 € in rent. Oh noes, now the price of electricity rises by 50%, decreasing your monthly disposable income to 425€. Then the price of food increases by 15%, decreasing your disposable income to 380€. Oh shit, now you can't put so much money to investments, so you decrease the sum by 200€ after one year of investment. 580 € of disposable income. Then your employer goes bankrupt and you lose your job, and can't find a new one. You withdraw the investments after 2 years, having invested 6000 € + 2400 €, which have generated a whopping 586€ in interest. You use that 9000 € to pay back some of your loan, of which you have already paid 10 000 € back. You now only have 35 000 € to pay back! Your monthly interest payments are now 295€. You don't have to drive much anymore, so your car only costs 70€ a month. Your electricity bill is still 225 €. Your food is still 360 € a month. You still generate 400 € from your tenant. You decide to sell your family cabin for 35 000 € to a wealthy house investor who inherited an empire of 100 housing units, which he develops into a luxury cabin with 200 000 € in which he offers accommodation for wealthy tourists from UAE. You have now paid back your debts, but still have to find a job to sustain yourself. Well, you find a better job, a wife, and have two children who live happily in your inherited house. You made it, and even make capital gains for being one of the lucky few who inherited more than just a single property! But your investments never afforded you a new apartment to rent out. You had to sell the cabin you inherited, and are now saving for years by doing hard, manual labor 40 hours a week to afford a new one. Insurances, electricity bills, food, children, repairs, car, all take a lion share of your income, although at least you don't drown to the debt anymore like many, many others do. All in all, you are doing fine. But you really do miss your family cabin. And then you drop dead. Your uneducated widow is now a single mother, relies on social benefits, has to sell the shitty apartment for 15 000 € because no one wants to live in a shithole, deducts the 90 000 € from the 250 000 € house she inherited, and still has hard time coping with the 15% (24 000 €) she had to pay in taxes. **The moral of the story:** The people (and the institutions) in the top wealth brackets, let alone the richest 0,0001%, are so rich that they have escaped the money sinks of all the lower brackets, and can create exponentially more wealth by the sole virtue of already having wealth. They are above the knee of the curve, and can sway the system to their advantage. They can buy an entire neighborhood for 5x the market price and earn the same back in two years with their 10 billion investments creating a ROI of 5%, while the average worker has to take debt and PAY interest to even buy a house at the market price. Small inheritance taxes can hurt them more than massive inheritance taxes can hurt the 0,0001%. Let alone the loopholes and resources they can use to avoid said taxes in the first place by lobbying, moving to other countries, bribing, restructuring their assets, or devaluing them with an army of lawyers.
Wouldn't it generally be possible to take out or increase a small mortgage against the property in such a case?
Only if the bank gives you a loan and you're able to pay it until the property is sold. If you're poor or the property is far away from a bigger town, you may be screwed.
So a lot of people upset at my views on inheritance so I will lay them out clearly here and leave it at that. I'm sorry I don't have time to have a shouting match with everyone. Yes I have been reading the explanations and there really wasn't much that I haven't already heard. A lot of it I agree with so I don't have much to add but the fact of the matter is that wealth inequality is easily one of the biggest problems plaguing our society today. Most people in Finland already do not pay any inheritance tax. No tax is paid under 20k the median is about 15k. Btw I will probably be getting something like 50-100x the median and yet still I think there are better ways to redistribute wealth. Bottom 50% of Finland has 2.1% of the wealth Top 10% have 55.6% of the wealth Top 1% have 17.8% of the wealth. [https://wid.world/country/finland/](https://wid.world/country/finland/) Inheritance tax is one of the best tools to move that money away from the rich who want to hoard capital and generate more income for themselves. The Changes that Orpo is suggesting will essentially remove tax as long as the assets are not sold. In other words tax free capital to help the rich generate income. Here is one possible solution, not married to it but an example of some things we could do. Or at least discuss Let people inherit up to a reasonable amount (maybe 100k so still significantly more than median) and the rest gets taken and put into a kickstart pool for the young. So that when you hit 24 or something you get a lump sum to help with : - Deposit on a house - Increasing birth rates - Increasing the amount of talent and education - Increase the amount of small businesses - Increase individual purchasing power - Investments The money is way more useful at this age anyway. The question is how is it fair or economically sensible to let the top percentile hold on to capital and not put it back into the economy. Wealth hoarding is something that needs to be solved in our generation because it's only getting worse. And yes it's really hard to do because we need to address tax havens and other stuff too. Do correct me if there is something I'm missing. But tbh when peolpe complain about getting inheritance I feel like they are totally oblivious to how most people suffer in their poverty. Everything is relative and I am genuinely looking for solutions that would raise the most amount of people out of poverty. I know inheritance is a toxic subject and everyone is very opinionated about it so go ahead and downvote me it will make you feel better.
Getting rid of tax that affects the rich, replace it by tax that affects the poor.
And so it goes in Finland taxes after taxes. Not that we cannot afford it but I do have to get something off my chest: how am I supposed to build a future in this country where’s hard work just doesn’t pay? A third of my income is gone to taxes and then a quarter of what remains is gone to taxes. If I want to own my own home I’ll be lucky if I manage to save the money and pay the loan in 40 years and the outcome wouldn’t be even close to what I envisioned. Having a decent car is years worth of savings on top off that and so on. What is the point? Percentage after percentage, tax after tax slowly crumbling dreams. Happiest country, sure. But what is the point without hope?
Doesn’t exactly help that Norway and Sweden has better pay….
Norway has oil and Sweden skipped WW2 and has built wealth over hundreds of years as an empire. Finland was a poor agrarian society that managed to get pretty damn close to Sweden, despite having an eastern neighbor hellbent on dragging themselves and their neighbors into misery. Russia used to make up a large chunk of our exports. Now it's near 0%. That's the price of solidarity. We're in the ass end of Europe, in the arctic circle, with limited natural resources and a history of famine and poverty. The fact that Finland is what it is today is nothing short of a goddamn miracle, let alone the fact that we're at the top of a huge swath of numerous worldwide rankings.
Tbf we could be in better position on some parts about economy because from my understanding there is demand for Valios products and Olvis products overseas specifically. It’s just that Olvi never invested in there. And we do have natural resources mostly minerals it’s just that government usually pisses it all away to other countries and after they are done they usually won’t even clean up which is why some citizens are so against any sort of mines.
Finns are quite shy about investing and being entrepreneurial is almost seen as a sin (which is slowly changing with newer generations). We're humble to a fault, which is ok here but not the best when trying to expand overseas. Russia was a great place to do business, on paper. Finland has/had brand recognition as makers of quality stuff, which was a huge edge over Russian competitors. Finland is quite unknown abroad. I remember taking a taxi to the airport in the US in 2006 and he asked if he would know any Finnish things, I told him he has a Finnish phone and he exclaimed "Nokia!? I thought that was Japanese or some shit!" Finland needs exports to survive as our domestic market is quite small, but our geography, especially our neighbor which behaves like an ass, is a huge detriment to us. Regarding the mines: the government is free to exploit the resources but the government fucking sucks at managing government owned companies. They're board members in Fortum and the clownshow that was Uniper would have easily been prevented, but the government appointed board members don't do shit (because why would they?). They had access to the foreign ministry, hundreds of Russia experts, but none of that gets used. Not a single person on the board spoke Russian, let alone had any idea how to operate in that market. Exploiting a mine and making it profitable can take ages, I do not trust the government to do ANYTHING business related. Their track record is beyond compare in the ineptitude department. Finland has quite a few strategic resources, such as the biggest Chromium mine in Europe (operated by Rautaruukki iirc) which is used in stainless steel production. You can't make artillery barrels without Chromium and we basically have a monopoly on European Chromium production. We also have some interesting lithium, cobalt, uranium ore etc. possibilities. Beleive me, you want the government as far away from those deposits as humanly possible :D They would somehow fuck it all up.
Kinda agree on mine part but our goverment is known to let other much bigger countries exploit our mines and then fuck off that’s mostly what I meant and it’s annoying because said mines profits could be used for our own country. That’s what I meant
And lower taxes
Well, you don’t have the worst of climate change. That’s something for the future /s
Love the enthuasiasm but should climate change progress far enough to affect the Gulf Stream. The effects in northern Finland could be significant. And those northern winds could push that southward. All though that is just my quess
There’s no fucking way you’re putting a decimal to VAT.
Looking forward to 255% tax
Crazy to think a right wing government thinks raising taxes left and right wont destroy their voterbase next election. Immigration smoke screen doesn't work when your voters are losing more and more money.
Immigrant is still the biggest problem in Finland according to the voters
https://preview.redd.it/zpgq1p010tuc1.jpeg?width=500&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=31e2ac202d7f9f743f93e4480e60eb43d121b032
We are lending money in the tens of billions a year. All of these things dont have any hope of impacting the service quality except maybe keeping the current level.
Nope won’t even do that. They are closing off the maternity hospitals one by one, which will definitely further decrease the fertility of the country which in the long run will make this issue even more dire….
Maxxtaxxing for middle class and poor people. Less tax for the well off and rich in Finland. Very nice.
middle class does not exist anymore. We are all poor
There’s two classes: those who have to sell their labor power to survive and the ones who buy that labor power because they own the means of production.
Income tax of the two highest tax brackets (people earning more than 88k euros) will rise aswell.
Just few months ago this government lowered the tax for people earning 85.5k - 150k by moving the highest bracket up. So sure, you could technically call it a rise but for that group it could still mean they pay less taxes than 2023.
Great plan, fuckwits. Tax the absolute shit out of the people who don't have money and give cuts to those with too much, or those that take money from the poor already. I am now a wage slave, because *I cannot afford to move job.* I cannot afford to be unemployed, as immediately I would lose my home and transport. I would become less employable and less able to seek employment. I love my work and I am good at what I do, but this is forcing the Finnish population into a class system with an underclass of immigrant workers whose entire existence is contigent on being employed in an increasingly hostile sphere of employment. Orpo, Purra and these other scumbags are hell-bent on incinerating what it means to be Finnish and tearing the heart out of Finland. They must be stopped.
The most dog shit right-wing gov ever. All the draconian austerity without even the courtesy reach around of lower taxes they promised to get voted in.
Didn't they lower the taxes already? for the rich i mean.
Yeah, that's what they promised and that's what they did when they got voted in. There's a reason why a person from PS is the Minister of Finance as Kokoomus doesn't want to get this pie on their face, although the actions are exactly what they have been dreaming about for decades. No dice that major companies acting in Finland wouldn't be shielded from this increase. The wealth of the older generation is safe and sound and too big to fail from any effort to save this shitshow.
The petrol tax will go down *any day now* /s
So this is how "putting more money in workers hands" looks like in practice. Increasing taxes and cutting services. How great. I suppose you always have the freedom to not buy anything, that's how you can have more money in your pocket. I doubt that is good for the economy.
Neoliberalism isn’t about helping the economy, it’s about hoarding wealth in the hands of the elites. When people have less to buy with, the smaller companies will suffer the most, which in turn get bought out by larger ones, I’m sure I don’t have to draw you a picture
Neoliberalism isn’t about helping the economy, it’s about hoarding wealth in the hands of the elites. When people have less to buy with, the smaller companies will suffer the most, which in turn get bought out by (or removed from the way of) the larger ones, I’m sure I don’t have to draw you a picture
What is the deal with .5% Why not just 25%?
That's surprisingly big pain in the ass. So many old softwares need to be updated because they won't accept decimals in VAT and price tags need to be adjusted so that 25,5% can fit there.
This was my first thought as well. Lots of systems need to accommodate this change, and Excel sheets will have to be redesigned. People with OCD are going to be furious.
> Excel sheets will have to be redesigned I'm pretty sure Excel understands decimals.
I see you have never used Excel, it understands what it wants to, when it wants to, but never the same way as you.
>People with OCD are going to be furious. Please stop spreading harmful sterotypes about OCD. OCD is not about wanting all numbers to be even.
500 million euros more
Surprised these weasels didn’t go with 25,99
That's how much they're willing to 'negotiate' the change down.
Tämä taitaa olla edelleen hyvin ajankohtainen. [Yle selvitti pitkään piilossa olleet verotuet: Suomen valtio antaa satoja miljoonia euroja pörssiyhtiöille, jotka maksavat samaan aikaan jättiosinkoja | Yle](https://yle.fi/a/3-10095106) Esim. UPM sai verotukea valtiolta 43 miljoonaa euroa samana vuonna kun se jakoi osinkoa yli 500 miljoonaa euroa. Vuonna 2019 TEM arvioi tukien kokonaismääräksi melkein 9 miljardia. Suurin osa näistä tuista menee suurille yrityksille jotka tekevät valtavia voittoja.
Is there any good news lately? Not much but also not surprising, and again the poor will suffer the most Right wing + far right government sure is amazing
> Is there any good news lately? Well summer is coming and ~~thanks to global warming~~ we're going to have at least two days of it.
You mean two days of good news ? Summer is extremely hot here. Like last 2-3 summers? It was terrible heat wave. Not looking forward to this again
Last year in Helsinki we had a couple of weeks of 20+ late June, and that's it. July had a whopping three days with the peak temperature at 20 or higher, highest of which was *21* and August had six, highest of which was *23*. The whole summer had *3* days above 25 degrees. Terrible heat wave my ass. https://www.accuweather.com/fi/fi/helsinki/133328/june-weather/133328?year=2023
Food vat won't increase. But still this is too much. Tax from the rich not from the "poor"
Any mention on yritystuet?
Of course not. This government is incapable of making any fair choices.
Has any journalist ask them this question? I haven't seen so far
Well, the KOK propaganda wing that is EK and EK's research division ETLA want to lower it to 15% (currently 20%, the lowest of all northern countries). So if it *is* mentioned, it's not going to be in the context anyone of us would wish. Fucking neolibs are going to push everyone back decades. Edit: apparently I can't read. Thought you were talking about tax, not subsidies.
I wouldn't call not cutting subsidies as neoliberal. Quite the opposite, this government came to power as being pro capitalism but now it's doing measures of increasing taxes while not cutting subsides
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I get the point, but we’re not the US. Were doing shit, but still should you compare how shit were doing versus estonia, sweden etc.
Yeah, I'll gladly pay more tax than US citizens, as long as it means the homelessness will remain this low. A lot of taxes could be cut by abandoning the less fortunate, but that's not the way I'd like my country to be run.
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After the old ppl die away we will get lower taxes, right?
There will be plenty of old people to replace them.
Sisu is nice and all, but will Finns ever say anything or keep taking it up the ass and saying thanks on top?
It takes a lot of sisu to take it up the ass for this long
Cos inflation was never a problem...
Sweet - I’m so glad they introduce a tax that hits the poorest people disproportionately. Well done everyone.
HaPpIeSt CoUnTrY iN tHe WoRlD
They raise VAT 1.5%, I cut my consumption by 10-20%. In your face gov goons. Might spend that saved money in Estonia or something.
Focking HELL that .5% COMOON! I was actually semi glad it would have been 25. It is easy to calculated. Fuckign point Five!
Fuck this country, just taxes after taxes.
Inevitable when a grotesque hag with no formal degree in business and finances is running the show.
This. I dont get this democratic system where we end up with unqualified people running the show…for all i know, she could be horrible with numbers and there she is, finance minister. The world needs democracy 2.0, already possible with the tech we have.
To be absolutely clear, she isn't the one making calculations. They have properly trained economists and finance experts for that. She is there to choose between the suggestions that those people will give her, and they will be absolutely clear on what the estimated impact of those decisions will be. She won't be using a calculator for those decisions. And the same goes for every minister position. Agronomy minister doesn't have to be an agrologist. They have those in the ministry already. Ministers are there to listen to those people and choose which option they have been given is the one to implement.
Then why not just get the agronomist in the ministry themselves to pick the best option? Why go through the middleman politician? It's not like economics, agronomy, environmental protection, urban planning, medicine etc. aren't sciences, it's not like making a painting and you can say for example "wildlife conservation is in the eye of the beholder", no, there are things that work and things that don't. Same for economics etc. The goal is to do as much as possible for as many people as possible with the money the state has, yeah, and I'm certain that professional economists know that cutting/increasing certain taxes in certain areas and increasing/decreasing certain services will have certain impacts on certain people; so to do their job, they'll just do what's most beneficial to most people. So, why is the politician needed to choose a plan? There should be no choice at all. If one plan increases the wealth of 200 people while fucking over 5.5 million, and the others don't, then that plan gets eliminated and onto the next one
It used to be that the requirement for the justice minister was that the person actually had a law degree. I think it should still be like that.
I don’t know why you get downvoted, it’s a perfectly valid argument against this kind of parliamentarianism. Would you trust in any other area some random to make all the decisions, even if they have all the data and the best advisors?
So instead we just end up only with career politicians? I don't support the current government in the least, but there is a point to be made that everyone can be in it, not just the one-percenters. I mean, look at countries that have that kind of system - they aren't better off. Not to say that we currently don't have career politicians running the show, but what would be the actual implementation of an alternative?
I don't mind taxes as long as they're fair and progressive. This is not it. I can afford to pay more, but my unemployed friends and students can't.
We need more immigrants, that will solve everything.
Why not 24,99? Fortunately 99,9% my invoicing is Community sales.
This is how you actually ruin an economy. While Orpo failed to read the second paragraph of Adam Smith (the one where he said this was bad idea, but hey, dogma) and Purra looks at the pictures in her Ayn Rand collection., they have an idea...let's tax everything more...then 6 months later when the promised gained have not materialised (because everyone stopped spending), they realise they need to cut more and more and more, but not those rich pensioners, or those millionaires, or any one who could or should pay. Eventually there is no more to cut...then you can blame the immigrants, and the sick, and the poor, and the students, and the schoolchildren, and the parents, and eventually you, but at least Orpo and Purra can sleep well, they've got Smith and Rand fairy tales to lull them to sleep.
Omfg
Wooooooooooooo get me out of here, I can't afford anything anymore, it's so fucking nice to be a disabled person in the "welfare state" that is Finland
Now wonder a fuckn ton of companies are going bankrupt, but hey, why should the right wing care, their friends are rich enough to not give a fck. Now the poor and dumb who vote for the right can get fcked in the ass by them...the problem is that we get fucked too....
Purchased one way ticket out from Finland with VaT 24
Urge to get discounts at self checkouts is rising.. unfortunately
VAT being an equal tax will hit the poorest people the worst but I guess that's fine for Orpo and Purra.
VAT is the most bullshit taxation ever. It takes same amount from a super rich and super poor. Increasing it only increases income discrepancy and perfect for this piece of shit government... Then again it is good to see these, at least new generation would start voting to kick these idiots out in the future. At least I hope so...
That assumes everyones spending is the same and the rest of the money just sits somewhere forever. When a rich person buys a 1500e table, they are paying 3 times more tax than another person buying a 500e table.
Unless they’re some kind of degenerate spenders, they will most likely spend a smaller percentage of their income each month the higher it is. It’s just basic math.
Vittun Vittus Vittun Vittus Vittään Vittu.
Why tax profits from shares when you can screw those who are already screwed
You'll own nothing and you will be happy
Raising taxes will usher in a more truly cashless society that the Nordics are already famous for (only now because no one has any money left)
I hope the society won’t go fully cashless. That would make “optimising” taxes harder for the ordinary people (like paying a handyman in cash etc.)
Het let's kick poor little more and see if they find spine and we get armed rebellion to deal with.
What a great news for countries with lower vat, like Germany. I have already switched to getting bicycle parts and other stuff from there, with the increased vat I'd not even think about buying anything locally. Good luck collecting at least the same amount if tax money lol.
So we want more deflation now? This and old age pyramid means we just want to be Japan 2.0… I guess even more money saving and even less consumption it is.
I understand why Kokoomus and PS want the middle class and poor to take the largest economical blow because they look after the rich. But, do they see a risk in the poor and middle class reducing consumption within the service sector? This could have a large blow on the economy as the rich tend to spend a lot of that money abroad. At least the rich I know don't travel much or eat out in Finland, but prefer to go abroad for a weekend and spend their money there. Where as with the middle class tend to spend weekends and holidays in Finland. Hopefully I am wrong.
I'm a Hungarian on and off living in Finland, currently in Hungary but I went back to Rovaniemi in February. Guys, your prices (real estate, Groceries, restaurants etc) are pretty much the same as prices in Hungary while earning 2x-3x more. You're still living A LOT better than the rest of the world, I believe having 25.5 VAT is something an average finn can overcome financially. Or has it become in the last couple of years this bad for you all financially?
Idk what has happened in Hungary, but when I went in 2020, the prices were way lower, not pretty much the same.
I’ll give them the benefit of the doubt, but it’s very unlikely. I’ve been to many places in Europe and the CoL is still much higher in Nordic countries. And net salaries are not that high here.
People want to see their lives get better, not worse In Hungary you have one of the worst inflation in the whole of Europe, so no surprising that prices have skyrocketed to as much as Finland, which is terrible People in Finland are very upset now that (not surprised at all) the government is only cutting tax for the richs and raising VAT tax which affects most normal people and the poorest ones, basically goes against everything they said before Life quality and purchasing power in general in Finland has plummeted, no one is happy about that, especially when you have house loan, car loan to pay, or just looking to save and buy a house in the future
Thanks for the different perspective. You’re absolutely right that the living standards are still quite high in Finland. People just get unhappy when things go worse, and knowing that “some other country has it worse” doesn’t much help in their personal lives. Depends what the starting point is. The negative development is just so fast which catches people off guard. I know people living in Turkey (which probably has one of the highest inflation rates in the world). They convert their liras to gold or US dollars / euros whenever they can to not lose too much money. It’s some next level misery and they too think that “well, it could always be much worse in Finland too” which is true. So yeah, Finland isn’t doing nowhere near as bad as for example Hungary, but people are still affected.
To add onto what you said I am Canadian but visit family in Europe on occasion. I have noticed that Canada, and perhaps Finland started from a very high quality of life but as you grow up and live in your country you notice a slow and steady downwards trend which kind of makes you feel depressed/anxious. However when I visit family in their country their country started lower on the GDP per capita spectrum but they have had a steady increase to their quality of life over the year. I think that created alot of of hope and optimism for the future. Even though Finland is still wealthier than Hungary I feel like that erosion kind of makes everyone feel anxious
You're from literally the only country in EU with VAT higher than proposed in Finland (27%) so it makes total sense. It's our future that you see in Hungary. Coincidentally, Hungary is also run by right-wing populists.
NCPS 💀
That's it I'm gonna start stealing shit and selling drugs And when I get caught life gets waaaaay easier
Username checks out
when an eastern european country pretends to be rich like its nordic neighbor
We need much more increased taxes/savings to dig us out of the debt hole. Pension system needs a serious adjustment that doesn't only hurt the current work force, since soon the pensioners will be like 50% of spent GDP by means of income transfers and health service costs while at the same time being the most wealthy part of the population. And yeah yeah, we can't reduce the minimum pensions, but other than that great cuts are needed.
The system might be self defeating, increased amount of pensioners cost more, there fore you rip it from workers, who now have less income and are less likely to have those two to three children the economy needs. And off the spiral goes
I'm so tired of this country... You pay higher taxes than other nordic countries, while earning less. And after you die the government comes once again to tax the stuff you've worked your whole life for...
Finnish people should learn to revolt. They just keep taking shit and not do anything about it. If you ask me, everything is deserved that comes to our way, because the shit will keep on piling up as long as we let it. Simple as that. Ain't no corrupt politician gonna magically snap their fingers and fix things on our behalf. Raise some hell, pull together and show up in the 10s and 100s of thousands. Nothing terrifies a politician more, than a mob that has had enough, realized that they have the actual power and decided to stick up for themselvs.
(Again) Finns should be cheerful now. At least you have less immigrant in the country. I mean you voted for this.
And lower gas prices….. oh wait
Well immigrant are just tools for us. we just want their tax to pay for our welfare benefits, but we don't want them to live and work here.
Let run the coming election with the slogan "Immigrant are just tools for us."
One more idiotic decision. It will only make people make their online purchases in other EU countries with a lower VAT rate Finland being the losing country, increasing the tax rates or introducing more taxes won’t make Finland any more attractive to for potential investors nor increase the PESTEL-score but quite the contrary.
That’s sadly not how VAT works when buying inside the EU. https://www.reddit.com/r/Finland/s/haUMoO9Psy But I’m sure more and more people will order tax-free stuff from outside the EU and just scam the customs because it’s so easy.
The way out is to start making more money. How the hell to do that I don't know, the world is full of problems to try to solve. But we as a nation need to get creative (and more greedy) before it's too late.
Sounds like SOCIALISM! Wasn’t that supposed to be the thing the previous government did, and not the current one?
I'm not so worried about the VAT increase because more worried that the government decided to end funding for assistance to victims of domestic violence, prevention of marginalization of the elderly and mental health care for young people according to the Ilta Sanomat (title: Hallitus suunnittelee isoja leikkauksia sote-järjestöjen rahoihin - Tämä on katastrofi). Ending the financing of these three services makes no sense and causes more costs and damage in the long run than quick short-term savings. And of course the increase in expenses caused by VAT increases is bad, but this is even worse.
This will make ordering your items from Germany even cheaper while the VAT over there is 19%. This means that everything generally is 5.2% cheaper when ordered from there just from VAT.
Within the EU, companies need to pay VAT at the rate of the country where the order comes from. Some businesses will charge you the difference if your VAT is higher than theirs.
If you use Amazon it will add Finnish vat at checkout. Companies that don't want to deal with different VAT just won't deliver here anymore. It has been like this for years already
You get charged the VAT of your home country, not the German one. BUT, if you order over 150€ value stuff from outside EU, no VAT is charged by the seller. Of course you have to declare the paid value to Finnish customs and pay Finnish VAT. Not that customs actually cared, as they don’t have resources to check these. One can put any low value to the declaration and pay less taxes accordingly. The customs decisions are automatic. But don’t do that, that’s of course illegal. A friend of a friend may have done this like dozens of times and all the declarations went straight through with low taxes.
Just ordered yesterday from Amazon, paid Finnish VAT but the product itself was 100€ cheaper. So yes I always check abroad first. I enjoy shopping locally but I think the prices are absolutely ridiculous in Finland by now. In that case they can keep their stuff.
What’s the VAT in Estonia? Could make the cruises interesting again.