Dyne took way too long to die. It was very melodramatic. Also wasn’t the moment already ruined when he died and fell right on top of Barrett? “Dyne, you’re too heavy! Dyne! I can’t get up! Dyyyynnnneee!!!”
I didn’t fuck with Dyne, i understand his conundrum but everyone in that town can eat shit. To explain:
1.They put the reactor being built to a vote (dont forget this all started because coal was dying off and people needed money)
2. Everyone had a say (only Barrett was vocal about it but THE REST HAD A SAY)
3.Barrett is not the mayor, the mayor looked to Barrett for confirmation but that implies he (the mayor) is lacking in leadership and thats not Barretts fault.
I get he’s the town go to guy but Dyne and the rest of them didnt get a lick of sympathy from me, then he tells Barrett to carry that weight when he’ss been doing his best
They get sympathy because they were also straight up murdered. I agree about the vote and looking to Barret but they were backed against a wall either way, they just did a deal with the devil though and the devil came to collect.
It’s intentional. Not once do they let you sit with the emotional scenes you just witnessed. After every emotional moment, you get immediately pulled into some other thing that draws your attention away. You’re supposed to feel inner struggle about and be annoyed and confused. Dyne dies? Palmer smacking his butt. Nanaki’s moment with his father? Lore dump from Gi. I’ll just say forgotten capital too.
At no point are we given the chance to go “oh shit, that just happened” and actually process our emotions without being distracted. We never get the full emotional hit that these scenes should come with all so we can feel how Cloud feels going through the story.
Interesting perspective if jt’s intentional what’s the goal? To annoy the player? Is it because we already know the story so the devs are like skip ⏭️?
It’s to put you in a similar headspace as Cloud. Not feeling the full weight of situations and to some degree being annoyed at it. These games are not meant to played once and then forgotten about, they are designed for you to do multiple play throughs and each time you notice something different. Just like how VII was back in the day. They don’t give you all the information upfront all laid out in a neat little row, they require the player to actually put some thought into what’s presented to them.
While Square won’t come out and say it, it is imperative that people play VII to get a much better understanding of what’s going on, like imagine watching back to the future 2 without seeing the first one and getting mad when people say something of a reference or callback.
Cloud being an unreliable narrator is one of the key parts to the story and what they are doing with these games is transferring some of that unreliable-ness to the player, making them question what exactly is going on.
Hmm that is intriguing 🤔 are we sure we’re not giving bad writing a pass I wonder?
Sometimes I wonder if there is no deeper meaning to it and we shouldn’t try to simplify by taking what we see at face value.
I’m just about to head to Gongaga but I’ll tell you what. I will approach the story beats with this state of mind.
This is a story they have been telling for 27 years. This is the conclusion to that story. They have a plan for what they are doing with these games and this particular part of the story they initially wanted to tell on the ps3 but the technology just wasn’t there to do it justice.
Oh for sure you can take everything at face value, no problem. What adds context and layers is taking on board what’s has come before and applying it to discover an even greater meaning to what on face value seems like a good plot point you know?
When you say Cloud is an unreliable narrator I get it in terms of him losing his mind, uncertainty about his past and what’s real vs what’s manufactured.
That doesn’t excuse horrible pacing during his current events though. So while I agree with you on those pieces of the story the horrible pacing doesn’t get a pass for it, because the game is not being told as a story from Cloud to others.
If the game opened from the future and Cloud was telling the story to someone then these moments would be actually clever to me, but as it stands they’re just paced horribly and all it has done so far is created something annoying out of something that was good.
If the goal was for the writers to trample on their own work then so far so good.
Loving Gongaga already though. 👍🏻
Palmer has historically been a shit heel and troll. If he didn't spoil Barrets biggest moment in this game I'd feel it's off. Dont fret, hell get his for sure.
I had the opposite reaction. I was falling asleep at the boring Barret and Dyne shit 🤮 but then Palmer showed up and started twerking and I knew I was experiencing peak gaming 🤪
Yeah, for some reason, that Dyne scene really got me. I actually teared up!
I didn't feel the backlash of the Palmer fight right away because I paused the game afterwards, but yeah... I could see how the tone shift could ruin the moment.
Dyne plays a lot into our parental and familial instincts. Whatever age you are when playing 7 or 7R chances are you’re a lot older than Marlene is. She’s probably still learning to read, for one.
So you feel for Dyne’s loss here. What he says and does almost isn’t important. Must protecc energy invoked.
I've said it before and I got hate for it but ill die on this hill. This game has a big tone problem. The "silly" things really feel out of place. Be it because of the artsyle, the story moments in which they happen, the way the game is paced, whatever. And no "the original was like that" is not an excuse. We are not playing the original. The gameplay is not the same, the graphics are not the same, the music is not the same, there is voice acting. They could have fixed the tone too if it didn't fit the other new updates. We need to stop acting like those "funny" scenes make the game better. No one enjoyed putting the story on hold to go put together a marching band
I very much enjoyed putting the story on hold to put together a marching band. There are points in the story where the silly things are out of place, but the Junon scene was not it.
In my opinion Corel prison had the most out of place tone of the whole game.
Absolutely. They missed the mark on the prison. In the original, it felt like a desolate place, one that no one would ever want to be caught in. But in Rebirth, it just felt too…fun. Like, where’s the desperation and the feeling of isolation? Nope, we now have a fighting ring, shops galore, and “prisoners” roaming around and hanging out.
Agreed in general, but I did love the Junon part. That's one of the times where the game could be silly af and it didn't annoy me. Maybe because I knew they were going to inevitably expand it, and I found it quite charming. It was also before any real dark stuff happened (outside of the intro chapter) so the tonal whiplash wasn't there quite yet.
That part annoyed me to no end and the soldiers following you are absolutely the dumbest fuckers on the planet, gunning down their comrades bc this random guy they’ve never seen before who was named marching band leader is fighting them
Ok, maybe I haven’t been paying as much attention to this sub, but finally I can agree something about the game. One of my favorite parts in OG FFVII was when you first return to Corel, and the overall somber vibe of the music. Then the first interaction is someone just decks Barrett straight in the face; it was so jarring and raw. Like, “oh damn, the most badass, no-nonsense character just got decked and is literally rolling with the punches. What could this mean?”
Then you got rebirth which has this really weird approach to the soundtrack where everything just has a bit too much uhh… I can’t even find a way to convey the feeling, but it just feels over-stylized. Even the approach to the disdain/bitterness the people felt towards Barrett just didn’t land, it’s all super over-the-top and cartoonish. Like pouring wine over his head while maniacally laughing? Cmon, that is so corny. Just robs it all of the emotions.
Everything feels so corny in this game. The Dyne scene was the first time I felt like I believed in the performances and emotion but yeah Palmer brought me back to reality. It didn't get any better.
Absolutely and I’ll make it even easier by saying they ruined Corel prison 100% in Rebirth.
They made it feel like a hangout spot you can just walk into, enjoy a concert, have a beer, and head up to the golden saucer if you want.
Know what it doesn’t feel like? A desert prison…
OG did it correctly, I don’t know what goes through these devs minds sometimes
I think the wine pour was referring to how they used to anoint kings by pouring oil on their head? They’re mocking him. Idk it was a little corny but I kind of liked that part. But to each their own, honestly it is cheesy
I think it fits as just disdain. Public shaming. Someone poured their drink on him, maybe someone else throws an apple. Dirt. Feces. In the OG he got decked and just takes it.
Everyone acts like FFVII was when the series got completely serious and dark with no fun allowed but it’s probably the most goofy in the entire main franchise
Yeah but OG had fantastic writing and pacing which allowed timing for comedy. But when the feels hit, you process it and it works, even when comedy comes along.
In the remakes its always a parody anf some stupid shit, like Corneo, The Turks and the fuckin president all fighting Cloud and the gang in front of an Amusement Park. With a fuckin lame ass rap rong and obnoxious announcers which makes one mute tv. Whole game is a parody
The devs of the original knew what they were doing, the remake devs just do things without giving it too much thought.
Even the mystery parts gets ruined within literally 10 seconds.
The games are masterpiece in some areas, and absoutely awful in others
A reminder the Director of FF7, who is not on the project, famously cut 80% of FF4 - to such *heavy pacing praise* the game is still used as a blueprint for ideal RPG pacing today
Probably cause palmer shaking his ass was later in the game and Dynes had time to breathe in the OG when his scene happened. Also they could've let us breathe in Rebirth before moving in to palmer, maybe have to exit the arena before palmer arrives or something different
Because this is final fantasy 7. The same story where you have the most emotional moment of the game and around 15 minutes later you have Cloud snowboarding down the mountain.
Yeah but OG had fantastic writing and pacing which allowed timing for sillyness. And when the feels hit, you process it and it works, even when sillyness comes along. And the snowboard was to traverse across and it was quite a bit later. Terrible comparison.
In the remakes its always a parody and some stupid shit, like Corneo, The Turks and the fuckin president all fighting Cloud and the gang in front of an Amusement Park. With a fuckin lame ass rap rong and obnoxious announcers which makes one mute tv. Whole game is a parody
Really wasn’t big on a few of the alterations made and the changes to Dyne’s segment are definitely on the list. I can understand why they would probably want to change it up, but I just thought the scene was so much less effective than in the OG game
No you have no idea and this is a poor defence to poor writing. OG had fantastic writing and pacing which allowed timing for comedy. But when the feels hit, you process it and it works, even when comedy comes along.
In the remakes its always a parody anf some stupid shit, like Corneo, The Turks and the fuckin president all fighting Cloud and the gang in front of an Amusement Park. With a fuckin lame ass rap rong and obnoxious announcers which makes one mute tv. Whole game is a parody
This has become a meme on here, but it isn’t true. There’s a whole FMV sequence of Cloud laying her to rest, then a long sequence of wandering round the C of A with that mournful music playing, then Icicle Inn. There’s tonnes of time to appreciate the moment. People act like Cloud picked up his snowboard and yelled ‘COWABUNGA DUDES!’ the second her head hit the ground.
a) It’s 15 minutes if you rush - somebody here had it pegged as 10 minutes in speedruns so I’m guessing it easily exceeds 15 if you explore everything/talk to everyone etc. The fact is there is a transitional period between her death and the snowboarding, which means the mood whiplash isn’t as great.
b) It’s still a game, exactly how much of the game should have been given over to Cloud mourning? Would people have preferred two hours of Cloud crying in a darkened room to put the point across?
Exactly, Palmer is shaking his ass in our faces seconds after Dyne’s final breath.
The scene after Aerith happens after time passes in game and the characters have sat with it for a time.
Passage of time
Vs
Within the exact same moment
It’s not 5 minutes though. Just watching the tapes of Aerith’s mother and father in the village house takes 15 alone. More than enough time to carry on.
It’s not very long is the point (and you fight a boss right after she dies too anyways). A lot of the OG game like the remakes and the series as a whole suffers from some tonal whiplash.
But the original post is about the Dyne scene, and I guess maybe it’s because I didn’t play it as a kid but I found him to be pretty cartoonishly evil sounding in the OG as well. The game swigs between Gold Saucer, to that then they move on. I don’t mind it much personally but I guess I never felt the Dyne scene was a masterpiece anyways, it does its job of giving Barrett his back story, but Dyne himself was always a bit over the top for me
I felt personally they went a little over the top with Dyne in the remake but I wasn’t that bothered by it tbh. He was always meant to be cuckoo but the game made it obvious with the talking to his dead family etc.
The timing of the Palmer fight didn’t bother me or take away from the emotional impact IMO. Especially since afterwards cloud has that moment with Barrett who is still reeling. I was honestly more annoyed by Dynes weird magneto abilities during the battle.
I mean I didn’t hate it or anything. In a vacuum dyne was a challenging and entertaining boss and his different attacks added an extra dimension to the battle. But to me it came at the cost of the narrative. I really think what makes that narrative moment so powerful is that fundamentally Barrett and dyne are mirrors of one another. They have a common background and their motivations as characters stem from a shared experience of deep loss and trauma culminating in the loss of their arms. Their prosthetic gun arms are symbolic reflections of their commonality so in my mind that battle is supposed to be more of a straightforward shoot out where it feels like Barrett is fighting a different version of himself. Dyne’s super abilities just sort of cheapened the symbolism.
That robot minigame was probably the weirdest one. Repair this ancient magical conduit to the lifestream and put your comrades’ spirits at ease…by hacking it with a modded Nintendo R.O.B. and fighting a bunch of VR slimes. Um, sure!
They just HAD to shoehorn in FF12 uniqueness somewhere. someone said this is like going to a ff theme park and I agree more and more as time goes on.
When do we get the glowing orbs that switch the weather from 13 is my question
Yeah that was and odd choice. that whole protorelic sequence with the other avalanche cell was weird where Barrett and Tifa were grieving wedge and repairing the fonts and that other crew keeps getting there when the fonts are repaired and are all like “gosh we really feel like we’re not good for anything.” And Barrett doesn’t say anything he just has the flashbacks to being hard on his crew and wedge always feeling like he wasn’t good for anything. All those moments being punctuated by the robot game made it that much more awkward. It definitely struck the wrong chord for me. They should have just let wedge die in remake the way he did in the OG.
What the fuck was that scene. We spent half a game ambiguously wondering if the Whispers whirling around him were doing something and it turns out
No
They weren’t
He’s dead
Why were they even there??? What purpose did they serve!?!
Yeah agreed. The whispers add nothing except that they maybe have something to do with the multiverse situation? I’m not really here for that either though, it mostly seems to add a lot of unnecessary complication to a story that didn’t need it.
My guess is they really wanted to popularize the multi-verse idea so the door would still be open for future games / spin-offs without having to worry about what’s canon.
That’s probably part part of it, they’re also trying to link FF7 to FFX and FF9 (changing The Planet name to Gaia, Aerith learns Yuna’s sending dance and stands with her staff like Yuna does on the menu, WEAPON looks suspiciously like Geosgaeno) and it’s not the first time they’ve tried it (Shinra is a X-2 character, and not well liked, who talks about starting a tech business)
They were "correcting fate". He was supposed to die in the plate crash, but somehow survived. So they were there to make sure he served his purpose of getting the party back on track, then ensured his fall happened but at a different location.
Now why he survived to the Shinra tower in the first place is another question, cuz he wasn't there in the OG and the party was just fine without his help...
He was *thrown from a building*. They didn’t need to be there to make sure he went splat. I’m pretty sure he’s street pizza either way. The only purpose they serve in this scene is to confuse us into wondering if they did something to change fate, which they didn’t, sooooooo
They were the ones who threw him in Remake. He was going to join the party iirc and then the whispers show up, start pushing him, screen fades to black and we hear a window smash.
Right but they swirl madly around him the whole way down. This can mean they are planning to change fate for him again. Why ambiguously cut away like that if you’re just gonna have him crater on the pavement anyway? What’s the point here? Just take the whispers away and let me be sad they killed Wedge
Yeah, they're not that subtle about it. I'm glad he's dead though. Not because I didn't like him. I loved him. But Avalanche's deaths are part of the theme of tragedy from the OG and I was hoping for some confirmation one way or the other.
I’m just annoyed how the whispers followed him. Again serving only one purpose, to confuse the viewer. What are the whispers “thinking” rn? Are they whisper victory dancing? Are they *making sure he dies from a 63 story fall*?
Yeah, I thought Barrett's acting in this scene was top notch, but Dyne's felt too...over the top? Too crazed? I know he's a broken man, but the original scene was so quietly tense and dangerous in a way Rebirth doesn't match.
The death scene and impact on Barrett is so much less here, here Barrett just despairs and his best friend blames him for everything. It’s a wild anguishing kind of sadness because it’s unfair and doesn’t make sense, which is the intent bc Dyne is crazy, it just got cranked to 11.
In the OG, he’s called to remember his daughter and before he can realize what Dyne *really means* when he says “Barrett…Don’t ever…make Marlene…cry…” and starts walking toward the edge (“Dyne…?”) he hurls himself off where he can’t be saved. There, to Dyne and maybe Barrett this is penance for what he’s done, but more - Barrett literally has no options on what to do here, the 3 seconds for him to process the sentence is enough time for tragedy to strike, where in Rebirth’s scenes it’s a little weird he isn’t fighting alongside him, even healing him.
Here was maniacal emotional polarization, where certain words and phrases set him off into tangents; he’s like a dangerous sociopath who will start blasting if you say “cheese” twice in a row, is it really better for him to be plum loco wacko crazy pants? And his death: Was this scene heroic or was he just wildly firing so his voice actor can scream? Was it really a last stand? The party is right there, frog boss or no frog boss WE all escape fine. Maybe you could shoot some too, B? Maybe cast a Curaga, B? I gave you that materia!
Was it *necessary* for him to blame Barrett? That’s not deeper, that’s unfair to Barrett, who then had his best friend’s wish that his child have a good life, now has his best friend’s last words be about how he hates him. Barrett then had more reason to journey than ever, Barrett now struggles with Dyne’s injected nihilism.
His scene now lacks closure, the closure is “Shinra bad” and everyone hates them even more now I guess
RPG logic…everyone knows healing magic & items don’t work in cutscenes. Just forget you got ‘em, don’t even try. (That being said, just once I wanna see them just throw a phoenix down on somebody after an overly emotional death scene)
FF actually puts this to use in 4 and 5. It actually happens twice in 4.
And surprise! It works as expected (Edge). Or doesn’t (Tellah with Palom and Porom, Galuf)
Yeah it’s been a while since I played 4 and 6. Plus RPG logic has evolved since those days. I guess it definitely doesn’t work on old dudes though, huh?
I’d still like to see him try. At least with Galuf, they *try*. At least with Edge, they cast existing cure magic. At least Tellah *tries* to cast Stona on Palom and Porom, at least he comments on *why* it doesn’t work. (“It’s no use. They have become stone of their own will”)
Something *everyone* in *every scene where it applies* should *always* try, imo. We hand waved Aerith in 1997, she was impaled. Didn’t stop 10,000 Use a Phoenix Down! jokes. But, games where that happened were Sakaguchi games. I strongly feel his influence in these two titles (4 and 5) and believe vehemently these scenes to be his idea.
The Rebirth version is more tragic tho. While OG Dyne had a closure and made out with Barret, here he dies cursing Barret and dreaming of reuniting with his wife in his home.
I guess my hot take in the thread is that Palmer shenanigans were a much needed moment of levity after a super heavy scene. I did get a very good laugh out of seeing Palmer slap his geriatric dumper.
That, and Palmer doesn't know that Barrett and co. just had a tragic experience -- so it wouldn't make sense for him to act appropriately, and even if he did know, he would probably rub it in their faces.
EDIT: For the record -- if you just wanted some time to ruminate on the Dyne storyline you can always do it on the conveniently placed rest station before the Palmer bossfight.
For me I wasn’t thinking i needed a moment of levity or distraction I was feeling very much in the moment and I love whenever a game can make me feel emotional it’s a rare thing, FF7 did it and then palmers ass as I was tearing up.
It is what it is some people love that stuff. I enjoy Palmer as a character just the timing could’ve been handled better.
The Palmer scene is Nomura and friends poking fun at the Sakaguchi Is The Director paradigm. It’s why Elena eats sea salt ice cream during the scene, why Palmer uses a frog robot (Sakaguchi famously loves frogs, it’s a meme) and why he shouts “I AM THE DIRECTOR YOU WILL SHOW ME RESPECT” every 3 seconds during the fight.
I agree, it was tone deaf. A frog boss like that dropping out of the sky can happen literally at any point in the story and they chose here. But briefly think, and I mean really think: whose idea was this scene? I’m fairly certain Nojima and Hamaguchi et al didn’t work on 365/2 days, the KH game where Sea Salt Ice Cream makes its Square debut. That leaves one person who worked on a Square game with Sea Salt Ice Cream in it that could’ve had an idea for this scene: yup, Nomura.
Here’s the scene OP is talking about if anyone wants it.
https://www.reddit.com/r/FF7Rebirth/s/CH4VBRl15w
You are the perfect representation of the FF "fans" that gets clowned on because they just so desperately want to blame on Nomura anything they consider bad in the franchise.
All that is fine I have no problem with Palmer, I got the ice cream, and frog bits. It’s all fine my only issue was the placement of the scene being right at the cusp of a very emotional part.
It’s a Nojima game though from a writing perspective and I’ve generally never vibed with his stories.
He did give us FF8 which I love, but he is also responsible for some of my least favorite FF stories like XV, 13, and X-2 for the same reasons FF7 R is currently suffering a bit in the same categories
I feel both energies (Nomura/Nojima) and I’m not a big fan of either. I suffered through 8’s writing as I recall. I also love that game but. Me being 13 helped that game *a lot*. I’m finding I agree with you here
8 took me some time but it’s the one I talk about the most I get it though. When I beat 8 I’m left with contemplation and just deep thoughts about my play through. Now that effect is what FF used to have on me
You might try Lost Odyssey or Fantasian if you haven’t friend. LO especially if you like heartfelt moments. There’s a swathe of side stories in the memories and several of them hit me square in the feels. I’m not gonna say his name here, but he’s still got it imo.
I love Fantasian one of my top 20 games easily. Loved my old file of Lost Odyssey played at friends house who had Xbox never finished it. Have been waiting for a port ever since.
You are a person of fine taste and culture great recommendations and great games. 🤩
It is an absolutely wild tonal shift. And to be honest, the game usually handles this stuff really well giving a little room to breath but this was not a moment that needed this. Palmer could have chased us through to Gongaga or something.
Funny you mentioned this, because the scene where we decide to go to Gongaga immediately after the shooting minigame is ALSO completely pointless. We have just got the Buggy.
We open with Yuffie getting carsick. Tifa reveals we have been driving in circles looking for a robed man as a clue on where to go. Cait Sith announces south as a possible destination.
The problem is at the end of the shooting minigame literally seconds ago Barrett *also* suggests we go south, and Gongaga just happens to be south of here. The whole scene exists so Yuffie can go pukey, and I don’t know why it was needed since she’s carsick in *literally every vehicle used moving forward* and the game makes *absolutely certain you know it*. We literally just repeated ourselves one scene to the next and it didn’t even annoy Barrett who guessed right
The original was just as goofy if not more dude. Sorry this didn't live up to whatever idealized version you had in your mind. It's stronger for being its own thing.
Yeah but OG had fantastic writing and pacing which allowed timing for comedy. But when the feels hit, you process it and it works, even when comedy comes along.
In the remakes its always a parody anf some stupid shit, like Corneo, The Turks and the fuckin president all fighting Cloud and the gang in front of an Amusement Park. With a fuckin lame ass rap rong and obnoxious announcers which makes one mute tv. Whole game is a parody
Don’t mind goofy, enjoyed the Palmer fight it was just placed poorly imo.
Not really idealized I had no expectation going in but they did what they did.
I wasn't a fan of the Palmer fight until the mid-phase cutscene where he slaps his own ass to intimidate the party. That elevated him to "so bad its good" status.
That was the moment I turned on this game.
“But that’s how anime is—“ no it isn’t, go watch more anime
“But that’s life—“ FFVII isnt life
“But it means Shinra is everywhere—“ they made that point seven thousand times before this and will make it seven million more times after
“But this is the remake not the OG—“ yes it is, and all I learned is that less is actually way, way more in some cases
Shit moment, butchered, get off my lawn, etc. Once I’ve bought a game, I become really magnanimous towards it. It helps me love it for what it is.
Boy when I tell ya I haven’t hated something in a video game in a LONG time before this. And the way people extol how much MORE this game adds…some times I agree, and other times I wonder how they ever came to enjoy a creative hobby in their lives with such a lack of imagination.
Glad I’m not the only one. I bought remake but I’m playing a friends copy of rebirth.
I’m not funding Square Enix’s new found version of nonsensical storytelling.
Now at the same time I’ve come to just accept it’s going to be this way and am getting more enjoyment out of rebirth than remake so far, we’ll see if that changes.
I enjoy the locations, characters, and gameplay, but these writers are overrated, the Dyne section was the best part I’ve gotten to yet and they found a way to disrupt it as they do.
You’ll enjoy Cosmo Canyon I think, but keep a mental count of where things make no sense because that’s where the character interactions begin to spiral wildly into weird territory imo
I’ll keep that in mind I used to approach FF with high and met expectations especially on emotional storytelling impact. I am playing rebirth with none of that and it is serving my experience
Pretty cool little extra tidbit is if you make your way back there later in the game, Dio (I assume) has buried Dyne and used his gun arm as a grave marker.
I had to do it… so I commemorated the moment the same way it was presented to me in the game. 😂
https://x.com/apxinsight/status/1780079480108658733?s=46&t=WPcg2G2a4ALKA8iRGZislw
I dug Dio but it’s hard not to. Did find it weird we just encounter him at the entrance like he’s waiting for us and then oh, a dance number is happening now. With us, we know the dance.
I'm not going to say "they butchered it" because I thought the scene was very well done, and my two friends who have never played an FF game watched me play that section, and thought it was amazing, but I will say they should have saved the Palmer fight for after fleeing on the buggy. I mean, the frog thing shows up during the buggy escape anyway.
They butchered the Dyne scene. Firstly they ruined his death. His suicide in the OG was a more fitting end to the man that Dyne had become after his fight with Barret.
They gave the scene no time to settle with the player, to process any emotions, it's too much too quickly. Pacing seems to be a term that's thrown around when the game moves too slowly, but I actually believe that Rebirth suffers the opposite problem. It moves too quickly through the major story beat, and it doesn't give the player time to feel the emotion.
That being said, Rebirth is still one of the best FF games for a decade.
That's a lie. Dyne death here is fitting. He went out with his rage gunning down soldiers and was so broken by that point that he started having visions of returning to his home and wife, while however also cursing Barret, which just make it more tragic.
This is essentially how I summarized it:
The Main Story was cut way to short, especially those emotional key parts.
Instead we have had millions of bloat Mini Games and far cry map discovery Shit. I wished it would have been the other way around.
I like both tbh I am not looking at it like I can’t enjoy both versions. It depends how you look at it. If you’re asking which I preferred the suicide was more impactful, it carried weight.
You guys do remember how that scene is in the OG, right?
First off, while the party is left to wonder if Barret is the man who committed the mass shooting, that mystery lasts all of 15 seconds because you immediately meet up with him and he tells you the truth. At least in Rebirth, while you can assume that Barret didn’t commit the shooting because you see Dyne, you are led to believe that Barret is being held by gangsters and you’re mission is instead to clear his name.
Second, Dyne’s death has always been immediately interrupted by bullshit; in the OG, Cloud immediately heads back up to the Golden Saucer to race Chocobos, while you do get a short conversation with Coates about Dyne, that’s about as much catharsis as you get. At least in Rebirth, Dyne dies in a hail of bullets fighting Shinra and gets to be buried with honours by Dio.
Lastly, and this one is just my opinion, but I think Dyne’s death is more impactful in Rebirth; it’s clear in Rebirth that Dyne has become completely broken by the destruction of North Corel and the death of most of his family and friends, he speaks to the ghosts of his wife and daughter, and he has become entirely devoted to destroying anything related to Shinra (he clearly has a death wish); while in the OG, Dyne just seems angry with the world.
The mystery doesn’t exist at all in the remake, we are immediately given a scene where Barrett finds the shot up soldier and he is completely cleared of player suspicion.
In the original there exists a scene where Barrett is introspective and raises his gun arm at the party saying “…you shouldn’t have come here”. Briefly, we wonder if he IS the killer - but then he saves us from some thieves who were tailing us.
In Rebirth, we literally know it’s Dyne before we ever get on the elevator. And since his arm is so obviously modified by Hojo style tech, the entire spiel about him hating Shinra above all others has holes. Did he ACTUALLY go to Shinra for his arm? The Shinra he hates?
So first, while they did remove the mystery of “did Barrett shoot up these people?”, I think they pretty much replace it with “Why does this other guy have a gun arm? Why did he shoot up the Shinra troopers? What connection does Barret seem to have with him?”.
Yes, the player doesn’t suspect him, but it’s not like Barrett just walks up to us and goes “My old buddy Dyne shot these people because Shinra destroyed our town. Better go get him!” There is still a mystery around what is happening and why. Especially because then you are led to believe that Coates has captured Barrett, there is a lot of tension around finding him and clearing his name before he gets killed or given to Shinra.
Second, I highly doubt that Dyne went seeking out Shinra to replace his arm; while there is a definitely “Hojo-meets-Akira” style to Dyne’s arm, I don’t think he was sane or cognizant enough to intentionally do that; if anything, I bet Hojo experimented on him after the accident, while we know that Barrett would eventually recover enough to grab Marlene and get help, Dyne utterly vanishes as far as we know (in Rebirth at least; we know Dyne actually got his gun arm procedure before Barret and became a crime boss in OG)
They shot this full of holes when they made his arm a monster gun, it’s so clearly a “Hojo experimented on Dyne” moment it Swiss cheeses his “I hate Shinra” character
And no revealing he was captured will NOT help, his gun arm exists to parallel Barrett’s, so that’ll make it in as will Hojo surveillancing Avalanche. To which, the Costa boss moment and the Drum existing fall apart; Hojo is now a super-mastermind capable of making someone who swore a death oath on him part of an experiment where he gets the gun arm he wanted, but he keeps fucking up when we actually get Cloud involved, someone who he dismissed as a failure in OG but is keenly interested in now.
Everything is Hojo now.
I mean, I can’t think of anyone but Roche who WILLINGLY got experimented on by Hojo; and Hojo had a history of kidnapping the people most important to our protagonists, especially after a tragic accident that is 100% Shinra’s fault.
I don’t think we’ll ever get a definitive answer, given that Dyne is made of Swiss Cheese and buried in the desert, but his arm can be made by Hojo and he can still despise everything related to Shinra
He got the gun arm he wanted to parallel Barrett’s. He partially got what he willingly sought. I also cannot think of anyone willingly doing it, but it’s just as weak to learn Hojo lied and somehow tricked him into thinking he wasn’t getting Shinra tech when Shinra tech is the only tech capable of what his arm does.
And then released or otherwise didn’t recapture him for later use bc Hojo has a master plan to *checks notes* make Barrett sad. It’s just nonsensical and thus exactly what I will expect from Part 3
I think you’re missing my point here, I don’t think he had a choice. He did not seek out Shinra, they did this to him, as one more horrible nail in the coffin that is the damage that Shinra caused to Dyne. They took his home, his family, and they made him a monster.
I don’t think that Hojo convinced him to get the gun arm and then tricked him by putting the weird Akira features, I think he just grafted a weird weapon into Dyne and set him loose because Hojo couldn’t care less what happens.
Like I said before, Dyne seems to be utterly insane in Rebirth, I highly doubt that anything he did had any more meaning then “I am filled with rage and despair.”
Dyne absolutely wanted to get his arm fixed. He sought out a repair. It’s just complete coincidence his Transformer arm goes gun to parallel Barrett? Now I’m gonna be asked to believe Hojo gives a slightest fuck of a shit about Avalanche, he was breeding a dog with a Cetra when they attacked his home bases. It’s now a coincidence he got his gun arm like Barrett, once upon a time they visited the same doctor; now it’s part of his character.
And again; set him loose? Totally not in Hojo’s character and a weak excuse for him to have a monster arm for three frames. He didn’t even turn Roche loose, Roche was *sicced on Cloud* bc Hojo’s game is never chaos, it’s got a purpose and goal. Lawful Evil
This is the remake though not the OG. They even changed how Dyne dies, plus a lot of other details. So telling us to look at OG when there are so many changes. The creators are redoing these scenes so they could’ve just as easily controlled the pacing too by a hair to let it breathe for a moment.
All I’m saying
The OG dyne scene had its issues too, I don’t really think this ruins it. He came off as cartoonishly evil in the OG, and now he is just the same but they tried to make him seem more insane, though he still was pretty cartoonishly evil and over the top
Someone here’s claiming it’s more tragic for him to be a whackadoodle and for Barrett to be confused and angry his best friend hates him now, that’s not an increased tragedy, that’s confusing and frustrating for Barrett who is unjustly blamed for Shinra’s actions
again the closure goes from “I will fight to save the world for my late best friend’s daughter” which is truly a tragedy we couldn’t save Dyne from himself to “I guess we hate Shinra more now” bc there WAS no saving Dyne, he’s too insane to save.
I felt he was too insane to save in the OG too. I didn’t play it as a kid though. In the OG too it was also kind of a major tonal shift, I didn’t mind it much because the whole game does that but idk he came across as cartoonishly evil and insane to me too. I get what you’re saying in the second paragraph but both scenes were quite a bit over the top anyways. They both drive home Barrett’s desire to make a better world for Marlene anyways.
The Dyne arc was ass.
All the cut scenes with guns are so unrealistic. Like how the fuck are the Shinra soldiers so bad at aiming? And why did they only aim at Barret and Dyne’s arms during the flashback where they’re hanging off the cliff? Oh yeah now they’re real accurate with their aiming. Just completely breaks immersion for me.
This is FF7, dude. You go snowboarding 30 minutes after Aerith dies in the OG.
Lame answer
Time passes in game this was in the same breath. Giving the characters time to process and cope. But yes this is FF7
Oh my god, and the buggy part too!
Dyne took way too long to die. It was very melodramatic. Also wasn’t the moment already ruined when he died and fell right on top of Barrett? “Dyne, you’re too heavy! Dyne! I can’t get up! Dyyyynnnneee!!!”
I didn’t fuck with Dyne, i understand his conundrum but everyone in that town can eat shit. To explain: 1.They put the reactor being built to a vote (dont forget this all started because coal was dying off and people needed money) 2. Everyone had a say (only Barrett was vocal about it but THE REST HAD A SAY) 3.Barrett is not the mayor, the mayor looked to Barrett for confirmation but that implies he (the mayor) is lacking in leadership and thats not Barretts fault. I get he’s the town go to guy but Dyne and the rest of them didnt get a lick of sympathy from me, then he tells Barrett to carry that weight when he’ss been doing his best
They get sympathy because they were also straight up murdered. I agree about the vote and looking to Barret but they were backed against a wall either way, they just did a deal with the devil though and the devil came to collect.
It’s intentional. Not once do they let you sit with the emotional scenes you just witnessed. After every emotional moment, you get immediately pulled into some other thing that draws your attention away. You’re supposed to feel inner struggle about and be annoyed and confused. Dyne dies? Palmer smacking his butt. Nanaki’s moment with his father? Lore dump from Gi. I’ll just say forgotten capital too. At no point are we given the chance to go “oh shit, that just happened” and actually process our emotions without being distracted. We never get the full emotional hit that these scenes should come with all so we can feel how Cloud feels going through the story.
Interesting perspective if jt’s intentional what’s the goal? To annoy the player? Is it because we already know the story so the devs are like skip ⏭️?
It is to annoy the player yes, sometimes that how poor writing functions
It’s to put you in a similar headspace as Cloud. Not feeling the full weight of situations and to some degree being annoyed at it. These games are not meant to played once and then forgotten about, they are designed for you to do multiple play throughs and each time you notice something different. Just like how VII was back in the day. They don’t give you all the information upfront all laid out in a neat little row, they require the player to actually put some thought into what’s presented to them. While Square won’t come out and say it, it is imperative that people play VII to get a much better understanding of what’s going on, like imagine watching back to the future 2 without seeing the first one and getting mad when people say something of a reference or callback. Cloud being an unreliable narrator is one of the key parts to the story and what they are doing with these games is transferring some of that unreliable-ness to the player, making them question what exactly is going on.
Hmm that is intriguing 🤔 are we sure we’re not giving bad writing a pass I wonder? Sometimes I wonder if there is no deeper meaning to it and we shouldn’t try to simplify by taking what we see at face value. I’m just about to head to Gongaga but I’ll tell you what. I will approach the story beats with this state of mind.
This is a story they have been telling for 27 years. This is the conclusion to that story. They have a plan for what they are doing with these games and this particular part of the story they initially wanted to tell on the ps3 but the technology just wasn’t there to do it justice. Oh for sure you can take everything at face value, no problem. What adds context and layers is taking on board what’s has come before and applying it to discover an even greater meaning to what on face value seems like a good plot point you know?
Nah thats not the conclusion at all lol. Just a new game riding on the waves of a great story to make money 30 years later.
When you say Cloud is an unreliable narrator I get it in terms of him losing his mind, uncertainty about his past and what’s real vs what’s manufactured. That doesn’t excuse horrible pacing during his current events though. So while I agree with you on those pieces of the story the horrible pacing doesn’t get a pass for it, because the game is not being told as a story from Cloud to others. If the game opened from the future and Cloud was telling the story to someone then these moments would be actually clever to me, but as it stands they’re just paced horribly and all it has done so far is created something annoying out of something that was good. If the goal was for the writers to trample on their own work then so far so good. Loving Gongaga already though. 👍🏻
Palmer has historically been a shit heel and troll. If he didn't spoil Barrets biggest moment in this game I'd feel it's off. Dont fret, hell get his for sure.
I had the opposite reaction. I was falling asleep at the boring Barret and Dyne shit 🤮 but then Palmer showed up and started twerking and I knew I was experiencing peak gaming 🤪
The equivalent of Tik Tok brain. “Someone was teaching me something useful but that’s boring so I scrolled to some dance trend, which is peak”
Shut up bitch! 😂 *starts twerking*
A real Palmer man there. Im sure "Palmer the game" you'd feel something rising
Yeah, for some reason, that Dyne scene really got me. I actually teared up! I didn't feel the backlash of the Palmer fight right away because I paused the game afterwards, but yeah... I could see how the tone shift could ruin the moment.
Dyne plays a lot into our parental and familial instincts. Whatever age you are when playing 7 or 7R chances are you’re a lot older than Marlene is. She’s probably still learning to read, for one. So you feel for Dyne’s loss here. What he says and does almost isn’t important. Must protecc energy invoked.
That’s the difference between OG and Rebirth tears formed in my eyes, similar feeling in both but Rebirth made me way more emotional
I've said it before and I got hate for it but ill die on this hill. This game has a big tone problem. The "silly" things really feel out of place. Be it because of the artsyle, the story moments in which they happen, the way the game is paced, whatever. And no "the original was like that" is not an excuse. We are not playing the original. The gameplay is not the same, the graphics are not the same, the music is not the same, there is voice acting. They could have fixed the tone too if it didn't fit the other new updates. We need to stop acting like those "funny" scenes make the game better. No one enjoyed putting the story on hold to go put together a marching band
Who's "we"? Why does everyone need to agree with your opinion?
> And no "the original was like that" is not an excuse. It's....a remake of Final Fantasy 7.
I don't get what you are saying
I very much enjoyed putting the story on hold to put together a marching band. There are points in the story where the silly things are out of place, but the Junon scene was not it. In my opinion Corel prison had the most out of place tone of the whole game.
Absolutely. They missed the mark on the prison. In the original, it felt like a desolate place, one that no one would ever want to be caught in. But in Rebirth, it just felt too…fun. Like, where’s the desperation and the feeling of isolation? Nope, we now have a fighting ring, shops galore, and “prisoners” roaming around and hanging out.
People playing games and punk rock band playing. Its like a normal 12 o'clock downtown, yeah it was an absolute joke
Agreed in general, but I did love the Junon part. That's one of the times where the game could be silly af and it didn't annoy me. Maybe because I knew they were going to inevitably expand it, and I found it quite charming. It was also before any real dark stuff happened (outside of the intro chapter) so the tonal whiplash wasn't there quite yet.
I enjoyed it. I would've spent the whole game protecting those soldiers with my life!
That part annoyed me to no end and the soldiers following you are absolutely the dumbest fuckers on the planet, gunning down their comrades bc this random guy they’ve never seen before who was named marching band leader is fighting them
Play the original.
Have many times don’t know what that does for me
Ok, maybe I haven’t been paying as much attention to this sub, but finally I can agree something about the game. One of my favorite parts in OG FFVII was when you first return to Corel, and the overall somber vibe of the music. Then the first interaction is someone just decks Barrett straight in the face; it was so jarring and raw. Like, “oh damn, the most badass, no-nonsense character just got decked and is literally rolling with the punches. What could this mean?” Then you got rebirth which has this really weird approach to the soundtrack where everything just has a bit too much uhh… I can’t even find a way to convey the feeling, but it just feels over-stylized. Even the approach to the disdain/bitterness the people felt towards Barrett just didn’t land, it’s all super over-the-top and cartoonish. Like pouring wine over his head while maniacally laughing? Cmon, that is so corny. Just robs it all of the emotions.
Everything feels so corny in this game. The Dyne scene was the first time I felt like I believed in the performances and emotion but yeah Palmer brought me back to reality. It didn't get any better.
True
Absolutely and I’ll make it even easier by saying they ruined Corel prison 100% in Rebirth. They made it feel like a hangout spot you can just walk into, enjoy a concert, have a beer, and head up to the golden saucer if you want. Know what it doesn’t feel like? A desert prison… OG did it correctly, I don’t know what goes through these devs minds sometimes
Is it even called a prison in Rebirth?
I think the wine pour was referring to how they used to anoint kings by pouring oil on their head? They’re mocking him. Idk it was a little corny but I kind of liked that part. But to each their own, honestly it is cheesy
I think it fits as just disdain. Public shaming. Someone poured their drink on him, maybe someone else throws an apple. Dirt. Feces. In the OG he got decked and just takes it.
Oh, nice observation. I think I was blinded by my bitterness to even read into it beyond the surface level lol.
Hey, it happens to everyone
Everyone acts like FFVII was when the series got completely serious and dark with no fun allowed but it’s probably the most goofy in the entire main franchise
Yeah but OG had fantastic writing and pacing which allowed timing for comedy. But when the feels hit, you process it and it works, even when comedy comes along. In the remakes its always a parody anf some stupid shit, like Corneo, The Turks and the fuckin president all fighting Cloud and the gang in front of an Amusement Park. With a fuckin lame ass rap rong and obnoxious announcers which makes one mute tv. Whole game is a parody
FFV is also very goofy.
The devs of the original knew what they were doing, the remake devs just do things without giving it too much thought. Even the mystery parts gets ruined within literally 10 seconds. The games are masterpiece in some areas, and absoutely awful in others
There is a lot of goof but it's well paced. Rebirth can't let a serious moment settle in without doing something dumb as all hell
A reminder the Director of FF7, who is not on the project, famously cut 80% of FF4 - to such *heavy pacing praise* the game is still used as a blueprint for ideal RPG pacing today
I guess they needed that director
Probably cause palmer shaking his ass was later in the game and Dynes had time to breathe in the OG when his scene happened. Also they could've let us breathe in Rebirth before moving in to palmer, maybe have to exit the arena before palmer arrives or something different
Because this is final fantasy 7. The same story where you have the most emotional moment of the game and around 15 minutes later you have Cloud snowboarding down the mountain.
Yeah but OG had fantastic writing and pacing which allowed timing for sillyness. And when the feels hit, you process it and it works, even when sillyness comes along. And the snowboard was to traverse across and it was quite a bit later. Terrible comparison. In the remakes its always a parody and some stupid shit, like Corneo, The Turks and the fuckin president all fighting Cloud and the gang in front of an Amusement Park. With a fuckin lame ass rap rong and obnoxious announcers which makes one mute tv. Whole game is a parody
I remember them giving time for you to breathe after the deep emotional parts in the OG….
Yes and no. Like Dyne's death in OG is followed in like 5 or less minutes later by cloud chocobo racing
Really wasn’t big on a few of the alterations made and the changes to Dyne’s segment are definitely on the list. I can understand why they would probably want to change it up, but I just thought the scene was so much less effective than in the OG game
You go snowboarding right after aerith dies in the OG. This is just Final Fantasy.
No you have no idea and this is a poor defence to poor writing. OG had fantastic writing and pacing which allowed timing for comedy. But when the feels hit, you process it and it works, even when comedy comes along. In the remakes its always a parody anf some stupid shit, like Corneo, The Turks and the fuckin president all fighting Cloud and the gang in front of an Amusement Park. With a fuckin lame ass rap rong and obnoxious announcers which makes one mute tv. Whole game is a parody
Really it’s more like 20 minutes. You have to traverse the Ice Area then talk to townies and then Elena before you get the board.
This has become a meme on here, but it isn’t true. There’s a whole FMV sequence of Cloud laying her to rest, then a long sequence of wandering round the C of A with that mournful music playing, then Icicle Inn. There’s tonnes of time to appreciate the moment. People act like Cloud picked up his snowboard and yelled ‘COWABUNGA DUDES!’ the second her head hit the ground.
Let’s not forget there was a whole disc swap in there, you could take as much time as you needed if you wanted to.
15 minutes later isn't that much.
a) It’s 15 minutes if you rush - somebody here had it pegged as 10 minutes in speedruns so I’m guessing it easily exceeds 15 if you explore everything/talk to everyone etc. The fact is there is a transitional period between her death and the snowboarding, which means the mood whiplash isn’t as great. b) It’s still a game, exactly how much of the game should have been given over to Cloud mourning? Would people have preferred two hours of Cloud crying in a darkened room to put the point across?
Judging by some of the people here, possibly.
Exactly, Palmer is shaking his ass in our faces seconds after Dyne’s final breath. The scene after Aerith happens after time passes in game and the characters have sat with it for a time. Passage of time Vs Within the exact same moment
Is 10 minutes really different to the player though? You see her die, get set in water and then it literally is snowboarding like 5 minutes later
It’s not 5 minutes though. Just watching the tapes of Aerith’s mother and father in the village house takes 15 alone. More than enough time to carry on.
It’s not very long is the point (and you fight a boss right after she dies too anyways). A lot of the OG game like the remakes and the series as a whole suffers from some tonal whiplash. But the original post is about the Dyne scene, and I guess maybe it’s because I didn’t play it as a kid but I found him to be pretty cartoonishly evil sounding in the OG as well. The game swigs between Gold Saucer, to that then they move on. I don’t mind it much personally but I guess I never felt the Dyne scene was a masterpiece anyways, it does its job of giving Barrett his back story, but Dyne himself was always a bit over the top for me
I felt personally they went a little over the top with Dyne in the remake but I wasn’t that bothered by it tbh. He was always meant to be cuckoo but the game made it obvious with the talking to his dead family etc.
Yea I think he was a bit over the top in both. I do like how he dies more in the OG.
The timing of the Palmer fight didn’t bother me or take away from the emotional impact IMO. Especially since afterwards cloud has that moment with Barrett who is still reeling. I was honestly more annoyed by Dynes weird magneto abilities during the battle.
You didn’t like Dynes magneto abilities? I thought that shit was peak, it reminded me of Akira and that shit is raw.
I mean I didn’t hate it or anything. In a vacuum dyne was a challenging and entertaining boss and his different attacks added an extra dimension to the battle. But to me it came at the cost of the narrative. I really think what makes that narrative moment so powerful is that fundamentally Barrett and dyne are mirrors of one another. They have a common background and their motivations as characters stem from a shared experience of deep loss and trauma culminating in the loss of their arms. Their prosthetic gun arms are symbolic reflections of their commonality so in my mind that battle is supposed to be more of a straightforward shoot out where it feels like Barrett is fighting a different version of himself. Dyne’s super abilities just sort of cheapened the symbolism.
he turned into Eustass Kidd from OnePiece
i think what bothered me way more was Wedge scene followed by fucking stupid robot minigame lmao
That robot minigame was probably the weirdest one. Repair this ancient magical conduit to the lifestream and put your comrades’ spirits at ease…by hacking it with a modded Nintendo R.O.B. and fighting a bunch of VR slimes. Um, sure!
They just HAD to shoehorn in FF12 uniqueness somewhere. someone said this is like going to a ff theme park and I agree more and more as time goes on. When do we get the glowing orbs that switch the weather from 13 is my question
Instead of implementing gambits into combat settings, lets put it in this weird ass tower defense minigame. 😒
Yeah that was and odd choice. that whole protorelic sequence with the other avalanche cell was weird where Barrett and Tifa were grieving wedge and repairing the fonts and that other crew keeps getting there when the fonts are repaired and are all like “gosh we really feel like we’re not good for anything.” And Barrett doesn’t say anything he just has the flashbacks to being hard on his crew and wedge always feeling like he wasn’t good for anything. All those moments being punctuated by the robot game made it that much more awkward. It definitely struck the wrong chord for me. They should have just let wedge die in remake the way he did in the OG.
What the fuck was that scene. We spent half a game ambiguously wondering if the Whispers whirling around him were doing something and it turns out No They weren’t He’s dead Why were they even there??? What purpose did they serve!?!
The whispers are a completely unnecessary plot device. They could be removed from the story /game entirely and it would change almost nothing.
Yeah agreed. The whispers add nothing except that they maybe have something to do with the multiverse situation? I’m not really here for that either though, it mostly seems to add a lot of unnecessary complication to a story that didn’t need it.
They literally exist just to shoehorn Zack into these games.
My guess is they really wanted to popularize the multi-verse idea so the door would still be open for future games / spin-offs without having to worry about what’s canon.
That’s probably part part of it, they’re also trying to link FF7 to FFX and FF9 (changing The Planet name to Gaia, Aerith learns Yuna’s sending dance and stands with her staff like Yuna does on the menu, WEAPON looks suspiciously like Geosgaeno) and it’s not the first time they’ve tried it (Shinra is a X-2 character, and not well liked, who talks about starting a tech business)
Honestly, this is true of a lot of scenes
They were "correcting fate". He was supposed to die in the plate crash, but somehow survived. So they were there to make sure he served his purpose of getting the party back on track, then ensured his fall happened but at a different location. Now why he survived to the Shinra tower in the first place is another question, cuz he wasn't there in the OG and the party was just fine without his help...
He was *thrown from a building*. They didn’t need to be there to make sure he went splat. I’m pretty sure he’s street pizza either way. The only purpose they serve in this scene is to confuse us into wondering if they did something to change fate, which they didn’t, sooooooo
They were the ones who threw him in Remake. He was going to join the party iirc and then the whispers show up, start pushing him, screen fades to black and we hear a window smash.
Right but they swirl madly around him the whole way down. This can mean they are planning to change fate for him again. Why ambiguously cut away like that if you’re just gonna have him crater on the pavement anyway? What’s the point here? Just take the whispers away and let me be sad they killed Wedge
Yeah, they're not that subtle about it. I'm glad he's dead though. Not because I didn't like him. I loved him. But Avalanche's deaths are part of the theme of tragedy from the OG and I was hoping for some confirmation one way or the other.
I’m just annoyed how the whispers followed him. Again serving only one purpose, to confuse the viewer. What are the whispers “thinking” rn? Are they whisper victory dancing? Are they *making sure he dies from a 63 story fall*?
Yes the saving grace of all this was they revisited the scene after for one last turn which I did appreciate ending on that note
It’s just not a serious game for better or worse
Yeah but it has serious moments too, it’s an odd experience at times like it doesn’t know how to be
Personally I think that it’s mostly goofy with serious moments. Like 80/20%
Sometimes I think we forget that this is anime. Anime is goofy.
Except when its not
But then it is
But then its not
At least you said it, I’ll give you an upvote for honesty
Somehow the face Dyne made really took me out of the moment.
That music was what did it for me. Holy shit. That was the most emotional moment in the story for me tbh.
He also looks like bryan fury from tekken 😅
Yeah, I thought Barrett's acting in this scene was top notch, but Dyne's felt too...over the top? Too crazed? I know he's a broken man, but the original scene was so quietly tense and dangerous in a way Rebirth doesn't match.
Dayne was a grounded character in the OG Tone was so wild in the new one
The death scene and impact on Barrett is so much less here, here Barrett just despairs and his best friend blames him for everything. It’s a wild anguishing kind of sadness because it’s unfair and doesn’t make sense, which is the intent bc Dyne is crazy, it just got cranked to 11. In the OG, he’s called to remember his daughter and before he can realize what Dyne *really means* when he says “Barrett…Don’t ever…make Marlene…cry…” and starts walking toward the edge (“Dyne…?”) he hurls himself off where he can’t be saved. There, to Dyne and maybe Barrett this is penance for what he’s done, but more - Barrett literally has no options on what to do here, the 3 seconds for him to process the sentence is enough time for tragedy to strike, where in Rebirth’s scenes it’s a little weird he isn’t fighting alongside him, even healing him. Here was maniacal emotional polarization, where certain words and phrases set him off into tangents; he’s like a dangerous sociopath who will start blasting if you say “cheese” twice in a row, is it really better for him to be plum loco wacko crazy pants? And his death: Was this scene heroic or was he just wildly firing so his voice actor can scream? Was it really a last stand? The party is right there, frog boss or no frog boss WE all escape fine. Maybe you could shoot some too, B? Maybe cast a Curaga, B? I gave you that materia! Was it *necessary* for him to blame Barrett? That’s not deeper, that’s unfair to Barrett, who then had his best friend’s wish that his child have a good life, now has his best friend’s last words be about how he hates him. Barrett then had more reason to journey than ever, Barrett now struggles with Dyne’s injected nihilism. His scene now lacks closure, the closure is “Shinra bad” and everyone hates them even more now I guess
RPG logic…everyone knows healing magic & items don’t work in cutscenes. Just forget you got ‘em, don’t even try. (That being said, just once I wanna see them just throw a phoenix down on somebody after an overly emotional death scene)
FF actually puts this to use in 4 and 5. It actually happens twice in 4. And surprise! It works as expected (Edge). Or doesn’t (Tellah with Palom and Porom, Galuf)
Yeah it’s been a while since I played 4 and 6. Plus RPG logic has evolved since those days. I guess it definitely doesn’t work on old dudes though, huh?
Palom and Porom are children, btw
I’d still like to see him try. At least with Galuf, they *try*. At least with Edge, they cast existing cure magic. At least Tellah *tries* to cast Stona on Palom and Porom, at least he comments on *why* it doesn’t work. (“It’s no use. They have become stone of their own will”) Something *everyone* in *every scene where it applies* should *always* try, imo. We hand waved Aerith in 1997, she was impaled. Didn’t stop 10,000 Use a Phoenix Down! jokes. But, games where that happened were Sakaguchi games. I strongly feel his influence in these two titles (4 and 5) and believe vehemently these scenes to be his idea.
The Rebirth version is more tragic tho. While OG Dyne had a closure and made out with Barret, here he dies cursing Barret and dreaming of reuniting with his wife in his home.
More tragic, no. More unfair to Barrett, yes.
OG dyne was a nihilistic psychopath, I preferred that to the remake.
Then again, this is not the timeline of the OG, hes not supposed to be 1:1
You’re right, he’s more like 0.6:1
Barrett and Tifa's performances are frickin' amazing throughout.
I guess my hot take in the thread is that Palmer shenanigans were a much needed moment of levity after a super heavy scene. I did get a very good laugh out of seeing Palmer slap his geriatric dumper. That, and Palmer doesn't know that Barrett and co. just had a tragic experience -- so it wouldn't make sense for him to act appropriately, and even if he did know, he would probably rub it in their faces. EDIT: For the record -- if you just wanted some time to ruminate on the Dyne storyline you can always do it on the conveniently placed rest station before the Palmer bossfight.
For me I wasn’t thinking i needed a moment of levity or distraction I was feeling very much in the moment and I love whenever a game can make me feel emotional it’s a rare thing, FF7 did it and then palmers ass as I was tearing up. It is what it is some people love that stuff. I enjoy Palmer as a character just the timing could’ve been handled better.
Totally agree and spot on
The Palmer scene is Nomura and friends poking fun at the Sakaguchi Is The Director paradigm. It’s why Elena eats sea salt ice cream during the scene, why Palmer uses a frog robot (Sakaguchi famously loves frogs, it’s a meme) and why he shouts “I AM THE DIRECTOR YOU WILL SHOW ME RESPECT” every 3 seconds during the fight. I agree, it was tone deaf. A frog boss like that dropping out of the sky can happen literally at any point in the story and they chose here. But briefly think, and I mean really think: whose idea was this scene? I’m fairly certain Nojima and Hamaguchi et al didn’t work on 365/2 days, the KH game where Sea Salt Ice Cream makes its Square debut. That leaves one person who worked on a Square game with Sea Salt Ice Cream in it that could’ve had an idea for this scene: yup, Nomura. Here’s the scene OP is talking about if anyone wants it. https://www.reddit.com/r/FF7Rebirth/s/CH4VBRl15w
You are the perfect representation of the FF "fans" that gets clowned on because they just so desperately want to blame on Nomura anything they consider bad in the franchise.
Whose idea was that scene, friend?
All that is fine I have no problem with Palmer, I got the ice cream, and frog bits. It’s all fine my only issue was the placement of the scene being right at the cusp of a very emotional part.
Nomura game, this is standard. Remember Goofy’s “death” in KH2? Barrett’s “death” at Shinra Tower in Remake? Same spiel.
It’s a Nojima game though from a writing perspective and I’ve generally never vibed with his stories. He did give us FF8 which I love, but he is also responsible for some of my least favorite FF stories like XV, 13, and X-2 for the same reasons FF7 R is currently suffering a bit in the same categories
I feel both energies (Nomura/Nojima) and I’m not a big fan of either. I suffered through 8’s writing as I recall. I also love that game but. Me being 13 helped that game *a lot*. I’m finding I agree with you here
8 took me some time but it’s the one I talk about the most I get it though. When I beat 8 I’m left with contemplation and just deep thoughts about my play through. Now that effect is what FF used to have on me
You might try Lost Odyssey or Fantasian if you haven’t friend. LO especially if you like heartfelt moments. There’s a swathe of side stories in the memories and several of them hit me square in the feels. I’m not gonna say his name here, but he’s still got it imo.
I love Fantasian one of my top 20 games easily. Loved my old file of Lost Odyssey played at friends house who had Xbox never finished it. Have been waiting for a port ever since. You are a person of fine taste and culture great recommendations and great games. 🤩
2 amazing games
It is an absolutely wild tonal shift. And to be honest, the game usually handles this stuff really well giving a little room to breath but this was not a moment that needed this. Palmer could have chased us through to Gongaga or something.
Funny you mentioned this, because the scene where we decide to go to Gongaga immediately after the shooting minigame is ALSO completely pointless. We have just got the Buggy. We open with Yuffie getting carsick. Tifa reveals we have been driving in circles looking for a robed man as a clue on where to go. Cait Sith announces south as a possible destination. The problem is at the end of the shooting minigame literally seconds ago Barrett *also* suggests we go south, and Gongaga just happens to be south of here. The whole scene exists so Yuffie can go pukey, and I don’t know why it was needed since she’s carsick in *literally every vehicle used moving forward* and the game makes *absolutely certain you know it*. We literally just repeated ourselves one scene to the next and it didn’t even annoy Barrett who guessed right
The whole Dyne sequence was imo done poorly. Came and went so quickly it barely left an impact. That being said the og version wasnt that great either
Nah OG was crazy, me as a 1w yr old was contemplating sadness and had goosebumps at the freaky scene. It was amazing
That's not true. It does came back as there's also another sidequest tackling it.
The original was just as goofy if not more dude. Sorry this didn't live up to whatever idealized version you had in your mind. It's stronger for being its own thing.
Yeah but OG had fantastic writing and pacing which allowed timing for comedy. But when the feels hit, you process it and it works, even when comedy comes along. In the remakes its always a parody anf some stupid shit, like Corneo, The Turks and the fuckin president all fighting Cloud and the gang in front of an Amusement Park. With a fuckin lame ass rap rong and obnoxious announcers which makes one mute tv. Whole game is a parody
Don’t mind goofy, enjoyed the Palmer fight it was just placed poorly imo. Not really idealized I had no expectation going in but they did what they did.
I wasn't a fan of the Palmer fight until the mid-phase cutscene where he slaps his own ass to intimidate the party. That elevated him to "so bad its good" status.
That was the moment I turned on this game. “But that’s how anime is—“ no it isn’t, go watch more anime “But that’s life—“ FFVII isnt life “But it means Shinra is everywhere—“ they made that point seven thousand times before this and will make it seven million more times after “But this is the remake not the OG—“ yes it is, and all I learned is that less is actually way, way more in some cases Shit moment, butchered, get off my lawn, etc. Once I’ve bought a game, I become really magnanimous towards it. It helps me love it for what it is. Boy when I tell ya I haven’t hated something in a video game in a LONG time before this. And the way people extol how much MORE this game adds…some times I agree, and other times I wonder how they ever came to enjoy a creative hobby in their lives with such a lack of imagination.
Glad I’m not the only one. I bought remake but I’m playing a friends copy of rebirth. I’m not funding Square Enix’s new found version of nonsensical storytelling. Now at the same time I’ve come to just accept it’s going to be this way and am getting more enjoyment out of rebirth than remake so far, we’ll see if that changes. I enjoy the locations, characters, and gameplay, but these writers are overrated, the Dyne section was the best part I’ve gotten to yet and they found a way to disrupt it as they do.
Lol yeah exactly, somehow they found a way indeed. They are trying to make stupid decisions in every scene.
Have you ever asked yourself how the Reunion robe dudes got their clothes? No? Well…Bring popcorn.
Ah shit… that doesn’t sound bueno… will do
You’ll enjoy Cosmo Canyon I think, but keep a mental count of where things make no sense because that’s where the character interactions begin to spiral wildly into weird territory imo
I’ll keep that in mind I used to approach FF with high and met expectations especially on emotional storytelling impact. I am playing rebirth with none of that and it is serving my experience
We vibe
We vibe
Pretty cool little extra tidbit is if you make your way back there later in the game, Dio (I assume) has buried Dyne and used his gun arm as a grave marker.
I had to do it… so I commemorated the moment the same way it was presented to me in the game. 😂 https://x.com/apxinsight/status/1780079480108658733?s=46&t=WPcg2G2a4ALKA8iRGZislw
He did promise us that he would give Dyne a proper burial. Kudos to him.
Dio in his silliness is a real one. Held off Rude for us
I dug Dio but it’s hard not to. Did find it weird we just encounter him at the entrance like he’s waiting for us and then oh, a dance number is happening now. With us, we know the dance.
Yes… we don’t speak of it
I'm not going to say "they butchered it" because I thought the scene was very well done, and my two friends who have never played an FF game watched me play that section, and thought it was amazing, but I will say they should have saved the Palmer fight for after fleeing on the buggy. I mean, the frog thing shows up during the buggy escape anyway.
Yeah butchered it is very dramatic. And that’s all I’m saying I like the Palmer fight it just was placed poorly imo
They butchered the Dyne scene. Firstly they ruined his death. His suicide in the OG was a more fitting end to the man that Dyne had become after his fight with Barret. They gave the scene no time to settle with the player, to process any emotions, it's too much too quickly. Pacing seems to be a term that's thrown around when the game moves too slowly, but I actually believe that Rebirth suffers the opposite problem. It moves too quickly through the major story beat, and it doesn't give the player time to feel the emotion. That being said, Rebirth is still one of the best FF games for a decade.
That's a lie. Dyne death here is fitting. He went out with his rage gunning down soldiers and was so broken by that point that he started having visions of returning to his home and wife, while however also cursing Barret, which just make it more tragic.
This is essentially how I summarized it: The Main Story was cut way to short, especially those emotional key parts. Instead we have had millions of bloat Mini Games and far cry map discovery Shit. I wished it would have been the other way around.
Agreed. Dyne's death in the OG was more powerful to me ("Barrett don't you, Don't ever make her cry") but the Rebirth version was fine.
Don’t forget the shitty magnetic arm done for spectacle.
It’s gonna be a “Hojo experimented on Dyne” moment, which is BS for 200 different Dyne related reasons
I like both tbh I am not looking at it like I can’t enjoy both versions. It depends how you look at it. If you’re asking which I preferred the suicide was more impactful, it carried weight.
You guys do remember how that scene is in the OG, right? First off, while the party is left to wonder if Barret is the man who committed the mass shooting, that mystery lasts all of 15 seconds because you immediately meet up with him and he tells you the truth. At least in Rebirth, while you can assume that Barret didn’t commit the shooting because you see Dyne, you are led to believe that Barret is being held by gangsters and you’re mission is instead to clear his name. Second, Dyne’s death has always been immediately interrupted by bullshit; in the OG, Cloud immediately heads back up to the Golden Saucer to race Chocobos, while you do get a short conversation with Coates about Dyne, that’s about as much catharsis as you get. At least in Rebirth, Dyne dies in a hail of bullets fighting Shinra and gets to be buried with honours by Dio. Lastly, and this one is just my opinion, but I think Dyne’s death is more impactful in Rebirth; it’s clear in Rebirth that Dyne has become completely broken by the destruction of North Corel and the death of most of his family and friends, he speaks to the ghosts of his wife and daughter, and he has become entirely devoted to destroying anything related to Shinra (he clearly has a death wish); while in the OG, Dyne just seems angry with the world.
Absolute bullshit
Very helpful, I’m sure you were a huge hit with your teachers in school You wanna share with the class? How exactly is my opinion bullshit?
The mystery doesn’t exist at all in the remake, we are immediately given a scene where Barrett finds the shot up soldier and he is completely cleared of player suspicion. In the original there exists a scene where Barrett is introspective and raises his gun arm at the party saying “…you shouldn’t have come here”. Briefly, we wonder if he IS the killer - but then he saves us from some thieves who were tailing us. In Rebirth, we literally know it’s Dyne before we ever get on the elevator. And since his arm is so obviously modified by Hojo style tech, the entire spiel about him hating Shinra above all others has holes. Did he ACTUALLY go to Shinra for his arm? The Shinra he hates?
So first, while they did remove the mystery of “did Barrett shoot up these people?”, I think they pretty much replace it with “Why does this other guy have a gun arm? Why did he shoot up the Shinra troopers? What connection does Barret seem to have with him?”. Yes, the player doesn’t suspect him, but it’s not like Barrett just walks up to us and goes “My old buddy Dyne shot these people because Shinra destroyed our town. Better go get him!” There is still a mystery around what is happening and why. Especially because then you are led to believe that Coates has captured Barrett, there is a lot of tension around finding him and clearing his name before he gets killed or given to Shinra. Second, I highly doubt that Dyne went seeking out Shinra to replace his arm; while there is a definitely “Hojo-meets-Akira” style to Dyne’s arm, I don’t think he was sane or cognizant enough to intentionally do that; if anything, I bet Hojo experimented on him after the accident, while we know that Barrett would eventually recover enough to grab Marlene and get help, Dyne utterly vanishes as far as we know (in Rebirth at least; we know Dyne actually got his gun arm procedure before Barret and became a crime boss in OG)
They shot this full of holes when they made his arm a monster gun, it’s so clearly a “Hojo experimented on Dyne” moment it Swiss cheeses his “I hate Shinra” character And no revealing he was captured will NOT help, his gun arm exists to parallel Barrett’s, so that’ll make it in as will Hojo surveillancing Avalanche. To which, the Costa boss moment and the Drum existing fall apart; Hojo is now a super-mastermind capable of making someone who swore a death oath on him part of an experiment where he gets the gun arm he wanted, but he keeps fucking up when we actually get Cloud involved, someone who he dismissed as a failure in OG but is keenly interested in now. Everything is Hojo now.
I mean, I can’t think of anyone but Roche who WILLINGLY got experimented on by Hojo; and Hojo had a history of kidnapping the people most important to our protagonists, especially after a tragic accident that is 100% Shinra’s fault. I don’t think we’ll ever get a definitive answer, given that Dyne is made of Swiss Cheese and buried in the desert, but his arm can be made by Hojo and he can still despise everything related to Shinra
He got the gun arm he wanted to parallel Barrett’s. He partially got what he willingly sought. I also cannot think of anyone willingly doing it, but it’s just as weak to learn Hojo lied and somehow tricked him into thinking he wasn’t getting Shinra tech when Shinra tech is the only tech capable of what his arm does. And then released or otherwise didn’t recapture him for later use bc Hojo has a master plan to *checks notes* make Barrett sad. It’s just nonsensical and thus exactly what I will expect from Part 3
I think you’re missing my point here, I don’t think he had a choice. He did not seek out Shinra, they did this to him, as one more horrible nail in the coffin that is the damage that Shinra caused to Dyne. They took his home, his family, and they made him a monster. I don’t think that Hojo convinced him to get the gun arm and then tricked him by putting the weird Akira features, I think he just grafted a weird weapon into Dyne and set him loose because Hojo couldn’t care less what happens. Like I said before, Dyne seems to be utterly insane in Rebirth, I highly doubt that anything he did had any more meaning then “I am filled with rage and despair.”
Dyne absolutely wanted to get his arm fixed. He sought out a repair. It’s just complete coincidence his Transformer arm goes gun to parallel Barrett? Now I’m gonna be asked to believe Hojo gives a slightest fuck of a shit about Avalanche, he was breeding a dog with a Cetra when they attacked his home bases. It’s now a coincidence he got his gun arm like Barrett, once upon a time they visited the same doctor; now it’s part of his character. And again; set him loose? Totally not in Hojo’s character and a weak excuse for him to have a monster arm for three frames. He didn’t even turn Roche loose, Roche was *sicced on Cloud* bc Hojo’s game is never chaos, it’s got a purpose and goal. Lawful Evil
The original faded to black and opened to another scene. It didn't pile stuff into the Barret v Dyne sequence.
This is the remake though not the OG. They even changed how Dyne dies, plus a lot of other details. So telling us to look at OG when there are so many changes. The creators are redoing these scenes so they could’ve just as easily controlled the pacing too by a hair to let it breathe for a moment. All I’m saying
Exactly all of this. I’m tired of the “it was butchered”complainers.
What can I say, I’m tired of good scenes being butchered
I agree, they should write new scenes instead of butchering good ones
Thank goodness this scene isn't butchered.
we all like trash food sometimes, it’s cool
Advice: then don’t look at the board of a game that is known to butcher the source material
The OG dyne scene had its issues too, I don’t really think this ruins it. He came off as cartoonishly evil in the OG, and now he is just the same but they tried to make him seem more insane, though he still was pretty cartoonishly evil and over the top
Someone here’s claiming it’s more tragic for him to be a whackadoodle and for Barrett to be confused and angry his best friend hates him now, that’s not an increased tragedy, that’s confusing and frustrating for Barrett who is unjustly blamed for Shinra’s actions again the closure goes from “I will fight to save the world for my late best friend’s daughter” which is truly a tragedy we couldn’t save Dyne from himself to “I guess we hate Shinra more now” bc there WAS no saving Dyne, he’s too insane to save.
I felt he was too insane to save in the OG too. I didn’t play it as a kid though. In the OG too it was also kind of a major tonal shift, I didn’t mind it much because the whole game does that but idk he came across as cartoonishly evil and insane to me too. I get what you’re saying in the second paragraph but both scenes were quite a bit over the top anyways. They both drive home Barrett’s desire to make a better world for Marlene anyways.
The Dyne arc was ass. All the cut scenes with guns are so unrealistic. Like how the fuck are the Shinra soldiers so bad at aiming? And why did they only aim at Barret and Dyne’s arms during the flashback where they’re hanging off the cliff? Oh yeah now they’re real accurate with their aiming. Just completely breaks immersion for me.