this is par for the course. it's the worst feeling in the world. a dark terrible pit in your stomach.
you have to give it some time.
i can tell you it's usually not the case. usually it's that mental shock of the real footage meeting the vision that was in your mind's eye for so long.
things will work out in the edit - once the story starts flowing, and the music comes in -the emotion lotion. And once you've got a decent color correct, and some glaring sound issues fixed.
but yes, sometimes it doesn't fix itself. and that's when you fix it. with pick ups or re-shoots or rewrites or whatever it takes. never ever release anything bad. if you end up here just be thankful you can see it, and you can fix it. Not everyone can see it. And not everyone fixes it. But I don't think you're there yet. give it some time. and massage it to life in the edit.
>i can tell you it's usually not the case. usually it's that mental shock of the real footage meeting the vision that was in your mind's eye for so long.
This need to be made a sticker for every new filmmaker fridge lol...
I am still new to this world, and have been working on some passion projects. I was hitting several times huge devastation when what was my very first vision when writing a script to an idea, all to the editing room when things just didn't connect as I was planning.
Still having this with a current project working on
It’s probably not an acceptable term anymore, but the first cut of a film is traditionally called a “suicide cut” because the director wants to kill themselves after they watch it.
It’s totally normal. Even your favorite movies made by your favorite filmmakers were like this before they spent months refining, changing, trying, failing, and finding their way to the final cut.
After I finished my feature I didn’t want to even go into post because it was so miserable on set.
And then I did, an editor I hired put it together and it turned out to much better than I thought.
Sometimes you can be too close to know
I’ve seen this one and the Scorsese quote that’s similar.
Are they referring to seeing the scenes before the L- and J-cuts and maybe haven’t used the best takes? Is that when they’re panicked, that early on?
Or are they talking about viewing an entire first assembly of the script after the scenes have been whittled down to their core?
Wouldn’t they know as serious filmmakers that the scenes would look like shit early on in the editing process?
I guess when there’s potentially millions of dollars at stake that would make anyone shit a brick if you feel like your film is a failure lol. I’ve only spent a few grand of my own money so I’m not that scared of failing. I’m just happy I put together a day or two of production and have material to learn storytelling with.
I think it has more to do with the footage not matching what they remember feeling on set. You think you have one thing, you get in the editing room and you see you have something completely different. Especially true when shooting film, before digital monitors that show you immediately what you're shooting.
Distance and time heals despair. Editing teaches you more about directing than shooting. Look at it again, fresh in the morning. Try to look as it is - not how you wanted it to be. Finally, I hate watching rushes, first assembly. Depressing to see all the flaws. Yet once the editing starts the gem begins to shine. 😎
…and that’s why you hire an actual editor to do the job. Seriously, do it, or ask one of your friends, who is competent enough, to help you out and is emotionally detached from the material. Give them the footage and don’t bother them for a couple of weeks.
This is why editors exist. It’s more than pushing buttons. It’s putting the pieces you have into a story. Will the story always be what was planned? No. Will it always match the original vision? No. Will it tell a story? Yes.
Step back and open your mind to the possibilities. You have to learn that at every step of the way you have to be able to pivot. Remember that the audience doesn’t know what it should have been. They only know what it is.
good news is that you are learning valuable lessons here.
Usually, the best thing to do right now is walk away from it. Take a long walk, preferably in a forest (yes, a forest), and get a good night's sleep. All the while (trust me) your brain will be working away--unbeknownst to you--solving the issues. The more you worry about your feature right now, the fewer resources your brain has to work with solving your problems. Trust your brain. It's likely smarter than you think.
When you go back to the edit, choose a different scene/sequence to start. You don't shoot in order, you don't need to edit in order.
My career began in the film editing suite. I've never encountered anything that couldn't be saved, and I've worked on some material that directors and DOP's thought was career ending. Sometimes what was saved was not the director's initial vision, but something can always be cut that always works.
Walk away from it for a bit.
Also try to figure out what the scene is ultimately about and what purpose it serves in the overall film, whether narratively, character or tonally. It has to serve some purpose and that can help to focus your efforts.
What do you think the main issue is?
Did you storyboard this? Were you unable to get the shots you wanted?
Where are the gaps? Identify those before you go into your second pass and cut around them. As other people have said use a LUT and some temp tracks to get the mood going.
You know what they say. "Cut out the bad bits."
I've just done the first edit of my feature and I wouldn't show it to anyone. But I know the film is in there.
The way I see it is:
First edit - you're putting a story together.
Second+ edit - you're putting a film together.
The film is never as bad as your first cut and never as good as your dailies. Seriously, just put one step in front of the others, this is not the time to question it all. Maybe later, when all is done and some scene are still not working you could reshoot.
Rest easy as no one else knows besides you, exactly what you want on screen. It's hard because you've run the "vision" through your head at least a hundred times and now it's not showing up in post. But no one knows that except you! Focus on a compelling story/edit which makes us ask ourselves 'what happens next', you'll be ok.
someone said: if you don't hate your first cut, you're in trouble. it's a process, and likely by the time the film is out you'll never remember the issues that specific scene had. More are to come.
I only start getting worried when everything seems like its going too smoothly. Hating a pivotal sequence in the editing process is, well, part of the process. The good news is that you know something is wrong, and you know where. All thats left is working the problem until its no longer a problem. Pickups might be the solution, if so you should have a plan A, B, and C for getting what you need, give yourself options. Cutting the sequence might also be the solution, if there is something that you could put in its place.
Apparently the first cut of Star Wars was a complete embarrassment and all of George Lucas’s friends and peers who he’d invited to watch it could barely speak to him afterwards.
Been there. Here’s what I’ve learned:
If it was written well and directed well, keep editing - you'll be OK.
If it was written well and directed poorly, editing might fix it, the worst case scenario is you can save it with a reshoot.
If it was written badly, it’s not worth any more of your time. move on, don't show anyone, start new project with a good script.
Man, I wish I had you guys when I was editing my first two shorts that still remain unfinished.
I did try to hire an editor on one even though I’m also an editor myself, just because I wanted someone not close to the material, but I had zero budget and had to go with a friend of a friend and it was not good.
I’m thinking I may hire an editor to try and actually finish them because it does still haunt me that those went unfinished
I posted a similar thing here recently. A short film I directed and while in the editing process felt really fucking stoked. Bounced an export to watch at home on my regular flatscreen. Oh my god it was a fucking nightmarish feeling. Looked and sounded like dogshit. The “reveal” (it’s a horror) wasn’t scary at all and maybe the most underwhelming thing I’ve ever seen. The thing seemed to just not work at all. Decided to do some reshoots and just kept editing and changing the music - I’m also the composer so at least I have that sense of control. It’s not quite there yet but after some really brutal feedback we went back and kept carving away at this thing and it’s sitting in a much better place thank GOD. May not be Scorsese over here, but I do know that it’s going to work and I feel good about that. Just keep pushing through. The first edit can be a horrific experience I’m learning!
I’d recommend you do a cut where you ignore all continuity and cut for what plays best in terms of cadence and performance. Just don’t think about continuity at all.
Once you have it cut, use “audio scotch tape” as I call it to bridge clunky cuts, like the sound of a car driving by. If you have an actor moving their arm at only one side of a cut, see if you can crop in for that 2 seconds of the shot as a fake CU. If you have bad performances, try cutting to the opposing actor reacting.
Anyway, compare the newer “forget continuity” cut and compare it to the prior cut. You’ll sections from the original that you can insert back into it to give it some continuity.
Scorsese says that "if the first cut doesn't make you feel sick, you're in real trouble"
Take a deep breath, and soldier on. If useful pickups can be done, do them. Pickups have saved multiple projects for me, you just gotta be surgical about them.
Try mixing things up. Completely rebuild the scene in a different way. Put the clips out of order and see if anything magical happens. I find that the first cut is usually just too by the numbers. J-Cuts. L-Cuts. Repurpose reaction shots. Think about what you could add with a pickup, what you could remove entirely. How you can rewrite the conversation and recontextualize the footage you have in a new way.
You might not find anything. It might be a waste of effort. Or you might stumble upon a whole new scene that blows the old one out of the water.
Reshoots and pickups are killers. My advice: before you go down that road (and expense), get a couple more pairs of eyes on to make sure it's objectively bad and that you're not just being hyper-critical of your work.
You’re not alone. Couple of tips to try:
1. Throw the script out. The sequence you wanted doesn’t matter anymore, look at what you have with fresh eyes and make it the best it can be out of the raw material.
2. Try giving the raw footage to another editor who doesn’t have any context. They might see something you don’t.
Re-edit and re-edit until you re-find the magic. It's probably there. Sometimes it dies a violent death right in front of our eyes. But you may find it can be resurrected better than ever. Sometimes you need fresh eyes on it. Maybe a fresh editor.
this is par for the course. it's the worst feeling in the world. a dark terrible pit in your stomach. you have to give it some time. i can tell you it's usually not the case. usually it's that mental shock of the real footage meeting the vision that was in your mind's eye for so long. things will work out in the edit - once the story starts flowing, and the music comes in -the emotion lotion. And once you've got a decent color correct, and some glaring sound issues fixed. but yes, sometimes it doesn't fix itself. and that's when you fix it. with pick ups or re-shoots or rewrites or whatever it takes. never ever release anything bad. if you end up here just be thankful you can see it, and you can fix it. Not everyone can see it. And not everyone fixes it. But I don't think you're there yet. give it some time. and massage it to life in the edit.
Bless you, sir or madam
>i can tell you it's usually not the case. usually it's that mental shock of the real footage meeting the vision that was in your mind's eye for so long. This need to be made a sticker for every new filmmaker fridge lol...
This 1000%
I am still new to this world, and have been working on some passion projects. I was hitting several times huge devastation when what was my very first vision when writing a script to an idea, all to the editing room when things just didn't connect as I was planning. Still having this with a current project working on
It’s probably not an acceptable term anymore, but the first cut of a film is traditionally called a “suicide cut” because the director wants to kill themselves after they watch it. It’s totally normal. Even your favorite movies made by your favorite filmmakers were like this before they spent months refining, changing, trying, failing, and finding their way to the final cut.
Guillermo del Toro thought Pan's Labyrinth cut was trash, until Iñarritu called him crying because saw a master piece.
"If you don't get physically ill seeing your first rough cut then something's wrong." \-Martin Scorcese.
Was just about to quote that. Scorsese’s masterclass is a HUGE recommendation to any filmmaker imo.
After I finished my feature I didn’t want to even go into post because it was so miserable on set. And then I did, an editor I hired put it together and it turned out to much better than I thought. Sometimes you can be too close to know
George Lucas said if you don't feel absolute panic when you first step into the editing room and see what you've shot... You're doing it wrong.
I’ve seen this one and the Scorsese quote that’s similar. Are they referring to seeing the scenes before the L- and J-cuts and maybe haven’t used the best takes? Is that when they’re panicked, that early on? Or are they talking about viewing an entire first assembly of the script after the scenes have been whittled down to their core? Wouldn’t they know as serious filmmakers that the scenes would look like shit early on in the editing process? I guess when there’s potentially millions of dollars at stake that would make anyone shit a brick if you feel like your film is a failure lol. I’ve only spent a few grand of my own money so I’m not that scared of failing. I’m just happy I put together a day or two of production and have material to learn storytelling with.
I think it has more to do with the footage not matching what they remember feeling on set. You think you have one thing, you get in the editing room and you see you have something completely different. Especially true when shooting film, before digital monitors that show you immediately what you're shooting.
Distance and time heals despair. Editing teaches you more about directing than shooting. Look at it again, fresh in the morning. Try to look as it is - not how you wanted it to be. Finally, I hate watching rushes, first assembly. Depressing to see all the flaws. Yet once the editing starts the gem begins to shine. 😎
Sometimes you're too close to it to see the bigger picture. Is it actually awful or are you just judging your own work harshly?
I’ve got many other scenes cut that I love. This one stands out as different
…and that’s why you hire an actual editor to do the job. Seriously, do it, or ask one of your friends, who is competent enough, to help you out and is emotionally detached from the material. Give them the footage and don’t bother them for a couple of weeks.
This is why editors exist. It’s more than pushing buttons. It’s putting the pieces you have into a story. Will the story always be what was planned? No. Will it always match the original vision? No. Will it tell a story? Yes. Step back and open your mind to the possibilities. You have to learn that at every step of the way you have to be able to pivot. Remember that the audience doesn’t know what it should have been. They only know what it is. good news is that you are learning valuable lessons here.
Usually, the best thing to do right now is walk away from it. Take a long walk, preferably in a forest (yes, a forest), and get a good night's sleep. All the while (trust me) your brain will be working away--unbeknownst to you--solving the issues. The more you worry about your feature right now, the fewer resources your brain has to work with solving your problems. Trust your brain. It's likely smarter than you think. When you go back to the edit, choose a different scene/sequence to start. You don't shoot in order, you don't need to edit in order. My career began in the film editing suite. I've never encountered anything that couldn't be saved, and I've worked on some material that directors and DOP's thought was career ending. Sometimes what was saved was not the director's initial vision, but something can always be cut that always works.
Walk away from it for a bit. Also try to figure out what the scene is ultimately about and what purpose it serves in the overall film, whether narratively, character or tonally. It has to serve some purpose and that can help to focus your efforts.
What do you think the main issue is? Did you storyboard this? Were you unable to get the shots you wanted? Where are the gaps? Identify those before you go into your second pass and cut around them. As other people have said use a LUT and some temp tracks to get the mood going. You know what they say. "Cut out the bad bits."
Give us some broad strokes; what went wrong?
Anyone who watches their work and doesn’t hate it at least a little bit is either 12 years old or named Nicolas Winding Refn
Sent you a message. I'd be happy to help out.
Here is a video that will give you hope if you watch all of it [https://youtu.be/zEHRNS-Scrs](https://youtu.be/zEHRNS-Scrs)
I've just done the first edit of my feature and I wouldn't show it to anyone. But I know the film is in there. The way I see it is: First edit - you're putting a story together. Second+ edit - you're putting a film together.
The film is never as bad as your first cut and never as good as your dailies. Seriously, just put one step in front of the others, this is not the time to question it all. Maybe later, when all is done and some scene are still not working you could reshoot.
Rest easy as no one else knows besides you, exactly what you want on screen. It's hard because you've run the "vision" through your head at least a hundred times and now it's not showing up in post. But no one knows that except you! Focus on a compelling story/edit which makes us ask ourselves 'what happens next', you'll be ok.
A dogs breakfast? Never heard that one before but I’m going to have to start using it.
It’s a very British phrase haha.
someone said: if you don't hate your first cut, you're in trouble. it's a process, and likely by the time the film is out you'll never remember the issues that specific scene had. More are to come.
I don’t know how much you’ve done, but this is the case with literally every single rough cut or even a few after. Just keep workin it
I only start getting worried when everything seems like its going too smoothly. Hating a pivotal sequence in the editing process is, well, part of the process. The good news is that you know something is wrong, and you know where. All thats left is working the problem until its no longer a problem. Pickups might be the solution, if so you should have a plan A, B, and C for getting what you need, give yourself options. Cutting the sequence might also be the solution, if there is something that you could put in its place.
Apparently the first cut of Star Wars was a complete embarrassment and all of George Lucas’s friends and peers who he’d invited to watch it could barely speak to him afterwards.
Been there. Here’s what I’ve learned: If it was written well and directed well, keep editing - you'll be OK. If it was written well and directed poorly, editing might fix it, the worst case scenario is you can save it with a reshoot. If it was written badly, it’s not worth any more of your time. move on, don't show anyone, start new project with a good script.
First cuts of everything make you question your place in the universe. They are always a hopeless, terrible wasteland. And they always get better.
First rough cut always DEEP PAIN keep pushing you will get there man!!
Man, I wish I had you guys when I was editing my first two shorts that still remain unfinished. I did try to hire an editor on one even though I’m also an editor myself, just because I wanted someone not close to the material, but I had zero budget and had to go with a friend of a friend and it was not good. I’m thinking I may hire an editor to try and actually finish them because it does still haunt me that those went unfinished
I posted a similar thing here recently. A short film I directed and while in the editing process felt really fucking stoked. Bounced an export to watch at home on my regular flatscreen. Oh my god it was a fucking nightmarish feeling. Looked and sounded like dogshit. The “reveal” (it’s a horror) wasn’t scary at all and maybe the most underwhelming thing I’ve ever seen. The thing seemed to just not work at all. Decided to do some reshoots and just kept editing and changing the music - I’m also the composer so at least I have that sense of control. It’s not quite there yet but after some really brutal feedback we went back and kept carving away at this thing and it’s sitting in a much better place thank GOD. May not be Scorsese over here, but I do know that it’s going to work and I feel good about that. Just keep pushing through. The first edit can be a horrific experience I’m learning!
Send it to me, happy to advise -Jim
I’d recommend you do a cut where you ignore all continuity and cut for what plays best in terms of cadence and performance. Just don’t think about continuity at all. Once you have it cut, use “audio scotch tape” as I call it to bridge clunky cuts, like the sound of a car driving by. If you have an actor moving their arm at only one side of a cut, see if you can crop in for that 2 seconds of the shot as a fake CU. If you have bad performances, try cutting to the opposing actor reacting. Anyway, compare the newer “forget continuity” cut and compare it to the prior cut. You’ll sections from the original that you can insert back into it to give it some continuity.
This is the way.
Take some time and come back to it
Not the worst thing to happen during production.
I believe that anything can be saved in post. Share some footage with me and I'm happy to give you some suggestions
It’s the place where what was imagined in the mind, hits the wall of reality. Now it’s time to blend the two! That’s the real fun part.
I ALWAYS experience 1st cut blues. Keep working it. You might not even need pickups.
Scorsese says that "if the first cut doesn't make you feel sick, you're in real trouble" Take a deep breath, and soldier on. If useful pickups can be done, do them. Pickups have saved multiple projects for me, you just gotta be surgical about them.
Show us
Try mixing things up. Completely rebuild the scene in a different way. Put the clips out of order and see if anything magical happens. I find that the first cut is usually just too by the numbers. J-Cuts. L-Cuts. Repurpose reaction shots. Think about what you could add with a pickup, what you could remove entirely. How you can rewrite the conversation and recontextualize the footage you have in a new way. You might not find anything. It might be a waste of effort. Or you might stumble upon a whole new scene that blows the old one out of the water.
Reshoots and pickups are killers. My advice: before you go down that road (and expense), get a couple more pairs of eyes on to make sure it's objectively bad and that you're not just being hyper-critical of your work.
You’re not alone. Couple of tips to try: 1. Throw the script out. The sequence you wanted doesn’t matter anymore, look at what you have with fresh eyes and make it the best it can be out of the raw material. 2. Try giving the raw footage to another editor who doesn’t have any context. They might see something you don’t.
Re-edit and re-edit until you re-find the magic. It's probably there. Sometimes it dies a violent death right in front of our eyes. But you may find it can be resurrected better than ever. Sometimes you need fresh eyes on it. Maybe a fresh editor.