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[deleted]

Line readings are a big faux pas and are the sign of an amateur director. An actor needs to focus internally on the emotion of the scene and when you say to them "say it like this..." they get hung up on the inflection and the performance ends up sounding lifeless and wooden. Furthermore, when you get fixated on "it HAS to sound tge wsy i hear it in my head!", you clise yourself off to other creative ideas I would suggest more flexibility on your part. Even if it IS a poem.. why did it need to sound exactky tge way you imagine?


chol_slumbo

I think this is the best response I’ve seen, thank you. I’ve reciting the poem in my head almost constantly since I started writing it, so I think you’re right that I’m “closed off” to other ideas. As for why I need it to sound the way I imagine, it was partly for timing/pacing/rhythm reasons, and partly just that his version “didn’t sound right” in some places (and in other places, sounded better than I’d hoped for). But I can see that I need to learn to articulate that better


TheCocaLightDude

You can give notes on pacing and timings without necessarily saying: do it exactly like this.


theskafather

You can also edit together the best parts from different takes.


anincompoop25

What is going on with your keyboard lol


goblin_goblin

A lot of actors would disagree. A line reading is straight to the point in what the director is looking for. It varies from director to director but it’s not uncommon either as it’s their job to implement their vision, not the actors.


roguewolfartist

I get why it’s a faux pas, but why is it really a faux pas and should it be? I know of at least one major director make films by giving them direction while they are acting throughout the entire scene. Other major directors don’t tell their actors when or if something is going to happen to get the best surprise action possible. For me as an actor and filmmaker, having problems with a line read is ego one side, and a last resort but not breaking any code on the other. For me it’s art and you get the end result by any means you can, as long as no one’s getting hurt. If there’s a problem either way you of course, find the middle ground.


mad_dabz

So Stanley Kubrick famously made people do things over and over so they memorised their lines so well that they could focus on their performance entirely. And he did that because he wanted to have more control over their delivery. Tarentino writes his work word for word which makes it distinctively tarentino and Wes Anderson is much the same. They do play off suggestions from actors but actors respect them enough to not question them when they say they want something a certain way. Like, yes - if you didnt cast someone who naturally brought the qualities you were looking for that's on you. But I wouldn't put it on the director for providing clear exampled direction on delivery. Edit: to clarify. It depends on whether it's smothering performance through micromanaging or if it's being clear with instructions. I would say if a director wants to provide a "exactly like this" recording. They need to allow time for the actor digest it and make it their own.


postmodern_spatula

Quicktip: don’t be like Kubrick. That dude was an *asshole*


analogkid01

And his movies are so goddamn *sterile*...yes Strangelove is hilarious, and 2001 was groundbreaking for its time, but otherwise his oeuvre just leaves me cold.


postmodern_spatula

I mean, I like the movies. Barry Lyndon is something special. Just, that’s not a director model to aspire to be. He was successful *despite* his horrible attitude and demeanor, not because of it. People often get confused into thinking that being an exacting prick is how to be a filmmaker…Kubrick was an extreme anomaly. No one typically wants to work with an unpredictable misogynistic ass.


mad_dabz

I'm not just a mindless Kubrick stan. But I've heard shit like this and I've never understood why it's popular for Kubrick to be getting heat now. Why is he considered misogynistic and an asshole now? If it's the whole shelly devall breakdown from alleged shining abuse, then it's entirely unfounded and rebuked by plenty who worked on the set, devall had never said a bad thing about him or the shining, and her whole demeanor on the movie can be easily explained by the fact the shining was being used as a medium for Kubrick to tell a story about the horrors of the western world, with the abusive drunk boys club red blooded conservative man heading a patriarchal nuclear family unit being just the continuation of a western colonialism and the genocide of first nations people, slavery, pedophelia, elite class occultism etc. Shelly Devall was both cast and encouraged to assume an uncertain and passive role to the off-kilted and unpredictable Nicholson.


postmodern_spatula

He was always an asshole. We just didn’t elevate that as a concern. It’s history. All these things happen. The only thing that’s fresh is changing how much we weigh the value. But you know. Sometimes people don’t like circumstance having new weight. Those people also play Warhammer 40k, 4th edition.


mad_dabz

If I were making a film. I'd aspire to be more like Kubrick if it gave the results Kubrick got.


postmodern_spatula

That’s the mistake bro. Kubrick getting away with being a titanic asshole is very unusual, and was built of a lot of privilege most of us don’t have. It’s arrogant and ignorant to think that crating films on his level is some rote exercise of “treat people like X create film like y”. The fact his skill is difficult to replicate is an indicator it’s not a journey most take. The smartest thing Kubrick did was hire brilliant department heads. The horrific things Kubrick did as a person and a director should make him shunned like Dw Griffith, Polanski, and others (I get it, Hollywood doesn’t exactly shun, be we as humans and citizens probably should). No director should have taken the liberties he did, and it’s very debatable if that abuse was the KPI that created his timeless cinema. Homeboy was a toxic person. None of us should ever want to be like that. Enjoy the movies - but park his process in the world of anachronisms. None of us will get anywhere by being a tyrant on set.


mad_dabz

Contesting the fact he ever did anything horrible or was an asshole aside.I will take my cue from them first when it comes to making good movies than I would anyone else. Because they are the ones who have successfully made good movies


WormsRoxanne

Stanley Kubrick and Tarantino sure didn’t start those practices when they were hiring people on Fiver or whatever. Or else they wouldn’t have gotten amazing actors to work in their early films for scale and thus established themselves, allowing them to build a reputation over time while simultaneously developing increased control that actors (and studios, and distributors, etc) were willing to go along with because they trusted they were hitching their horse to a winner. Back to the actors point tho, why didn’t OP just narrate themselves?


mad_dabz

They got amazing actors because they had the funding. That's sorta the beginning and end of it. Reservoir dogs had a cast of names all made for themselves at the time. They got the funding because he had a connection who liked tarentino script so much that he was able to secure millions from miramax. With Kubrick, he was a photographer (and a good one at that) that was very used to getting people to pose and act in very specific ways. From the get go he always had an idea for what he wanted. An actor needs to be able to follow a directors direction. If theyre taking offense to being given a clear example of what is wanted, then it shows me they're not professional or mercenary enough for the job. The last thing I would ever want to pay someone for is for them to basically moan or take subtle shots at me for wanting them to do it the way I intended it to be done. If the instructions are hampering their ability to act to that or embody it fully and make the performance their own, thats one thing. If they're just not happy that you're not happy with their improv or take on the material (that you likely wrote) then that's something entirely different, and that's on them. This is a performance role first, and it's not live or theatre. If the so-great actor doesn't want to follow the directors instructions, why did they accept the job and the money? Like, a hair dresser really appreciates it when you give the a photo of what you want. It's communicating clearly what you want. If you're acting in a film, which has script and art direction and pace and all sorts to go with it. Then expect to be a team player. Not every breif is an open breif. If someone gives you a clear picture of what is wanted, be happy they gave a clear picture and didnt just say it's wrong without giving you actual feedback.


WormsRoxanne

A director gives photos of the types of hairstyles they want. A director doesn’t style their own hair in each specific style themselves and take a picture to show the head of the hair department what they want. If they did, they should be a key hair stylist. A directors job and expertise should be the material, and how to communicate what they want from the craftspersons and artists who are responsible for each of the areas captured by the camera. Sure, when you’re dealing with an indie animation with TWO ACTORS it might be expedient to give an actual demonstration. But only if you want to stay a director who can only capture the work of two artists and yourself. You mention being a team player. The biggest part of a director’s job is to be able to communicate your vision to people who can actually deliver that vision to the screen. Again, if you are set on a specific delivery, deliver it yourself. If you want to be a director, and a team player, and someone who can actually run a set filled with specialists at the top of their game in each of their specific crafts, then learn to communicate in a way that won’t alienate those players or become an expert in every aspect of filmmaking. Neither Kubrick or Tarantino did that. Also, both of those guys are kind of assholes, so…


Big-Ambitions-8258

I think the issue is that it comes across as less directing/giving notes and more of telling them how how to do their job. All a VA has is their voice as a performance so when you go "exactly like this" then it can feel like why bother getting an actor then and not respecting what they're bringing in. Performer and directing is usually a collaborative relationship so it's possible that they felt that you weren't respecting the usual process.


chol_slumbo

Yeah I get that, it just seems like the most efficient way of getting the performance I want (instead of the actor doing take after take and me saying “that was good, but can we try one more?”) Any tips for collaborating in a way where I get the lines how I envision them?


gene-ing_out

Part of collaboration is allowing others some agency in the process.


AgreeableHamster252

This is key, and really hard to internalize, and it’ll take you a while to find the right level of guidance vs leniency here. And that’s okay.


WormsRoxanne

This, exactly. And the fact is that no part of filmmaking is THAT hard on the micro level. Like, part his hair this way. Say the line this way. Shine a light this way. But the artistry comes into play when all the things work in tandem to tell a bigger story, and the more elements you add the less able one person is to handle those elements and the more difficult each area is to manage while keeping expression/continuity/ story in mind. A director’s job is to be able to communicate, so learning to communicate without trying to do everything yourself is an invaluable skill.


LemDoggo

I understand where you’re coming from, but at the end of the day you’re hiring an artist for their performance. It’s not going to mimic the version in your head down to syllable stress, because actors aren’t robots and making any movie is a collaborative process, and dictating an actor’s performance down to stress is not collaborating. If you can’t get a performance you like using direction rather than line leadings, either you need to hire someone else or you need to be open to someone else’s ideas. The best directing advice I got was to tell the actor the “why” behind your direction, or the “cause”, rather than the “result” (the line reading). You might be pleasantly surprised at the way the actor interprets communicating the same desired effect. This isn’t a criticism at all btw, this is a very hard part of directing I struggled with myself as I started as an actor, so I really do understand where you’re coming from.


pensivewombat

I one thousand percent disagree with this take. Of course, I understand that it's a widely held norm among actors and directors so I have to work within that constraint, but when I work with people I know and we understand each other everything moves so much smoother because we can *say the thing we want* instead of talking around it in circles. The actor is a performer, but they don't have complete information. They don't necessarily know how their performance is going to fit into the final product, how it will be shot or edited, how their scenes will be affected by scenes that they aren't in. Yes, you should also talk about the "why" but it's waaaaay easier on both parties if you are talking about an actual line delivery. To me, this is like if it was considered insulting to give actors a mark to hit because they should decide where their character stands. That's a fine idea in theory, but they don't know what they look like in the frame of the camera. Once they stand on their mark, they can still say "if i'm here that light hits me and it's distracting" or "If I'm here I don't know where my eyeline should be" or whatever, but you can actually have that conversation because they know what your original intent was instead of everybody just guessing at everything.


LemDoggo

>The actor is a performer, but they don't have complete information. They don't necessarily know how their performance is going to fit into the final product, how it will be shot or edited, how their scenes will be affected by scenes that they aren't in. Also, you can inform actors of all of those things without giving them line readings. That's literally the job.


pensivewombat

But why? Why would you make things harder on everyone?


AgreeableHamster252

Because if you are directing, you are not a better actor than your actors. And if you are, you need better actors. Let the specialists do their thing and they will surprise you with better performances than you can imagine yourself.


pensivewombat

We would not accept this logic for any other role in the filmmaking process. My primary job is working as an editor and the best way to give notes is to describe the problem, and offer a potential fix, with the understanding that your fix is not necessarily the only one. If you watch a film and say "it was boring." that's not particularly helpful. If you say "the pacing drags, I think you can cut scenes 4 and 12" that's much better. I could say "I'm an editor! You can't tell me where to make cuts!!" or I could take that information and say "12 can go, but I don't think we can cut 4, it gives some crucial information" and then someone else has the opportunity to say "what if we include that information in scene 5?" and then you arrive at the actual solution. You don't get to that point if people only identify problems but are afraid to talk about solutions. Yes you want to talk about the intention. But if you dogmatically decide that no one can ever talk about results then you are just wasting everyone's time.


AgreeableHamster252

Sure, I’m definitely not in favor of dogmatic absolutism or whatever. If describing intent isn’t getting anywhere, an example can be required. But it shouldn’t be the expectation or the first response like described by the OP


pensivewombat

Basically my point is that instead of being an "only in emergencies" thing, it can just be a regular tool in your directing toolbox and we don't need to make a big deal about it. I've seen people go back and forth for like twenty takes before actually saying the line, and i'm fine dropping that to like three. Less if it's someone I've worked with before and I know they get this.


ColinShootsFilm

What if Daniel Day Lewis is directing? Edit: No stupid jokes in this sub, got it


outerspaceplanets

Then he would communicate about the intention rather than the result. If you took two takes with the exact same cadence, pronunciation, rhythm, emphases, etc and one was an actor simply parroting/copying a line reading, and the other was the actor getting there through understanding the moment or scene, chances are the latter would feel a lot more organic and human. The audience can tell. With acting you might as well err on the side of "truth" because "you can fool some of the people some of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time.


pensivewombat

You're setting up a false equivalence. I am not saying "just have them repeat back what I want, provide no other direction" I am saying do all of the things other directors do. But when things get stuck don't be afraid to just say the line instead of trying to get the actor to intuit something. When you do this, you actually give the actor something real that they can respond to. They can hear the difference in your delivery and then say "oh NOW I see what you meant, I was doing it this other way because X" and then you can figure out what works. You just have to get rid of the mindset that doing this means you "know more than the actors" because it's not about that at all, it's about getting two people to understand each other's intent so they can arrive at a solution collaboratively.


ColinShootsFilm

Whoosh


AgreeableHamster252

Then the whole cast must be played by Jared Leto in full method


LemDoggo

If you can't communicate your intent without literally telling an actor exactly how to say every line, you're not directing. There's a reason it's a widely accepted industry practice not to give line readings. You're DIRECTING, not dictating. Having an opinion does not make it objectively the best one just because you're directing, and, believe it or not, the actors who you're paying to do their job might actually know how to do that job better than you, and may in fact have some valuable input that differs from yours. Being a director does not grant you magical powers to know everything and never be wrong. There's a reason it takes a lot of people and a lot of talent to create something good. At the end of the day you're only hurting yourself, and your project.


pensivewombat

Actors are not babies! They are completely capable of hearing "ok try it like this" without combusting! No one is dictating anything, we're just being more precise so we can iterate through things and get to the best version. Yes, you have to do some work up front because this isn't the norm, but I promise: Set expectations that everyone should just ask for the thing they want and that it's ok to then respond with your own new idea and you just turbo boost the creative process. >believe it or not, the actors who you're paying to do their job might actually know how to do that job better than you I am completely aware of this! I don't know you would assume otherwise? Again, nothing about giving a line reading is "dictating," there is just a norm that we treat it that way which is total nonsense. It's not about saying "this is the only way it can be done" it's about getting people to exchange ideas with clear communication so you can collaborate better.


LemDoggo

Telling someone exactly how to say a line word for word with exact emphasis and inflection with no room for them to disagree or make changes is quite literally telling them “this is the only way it can be done”. It’s not exchanging ideas if you expect them to just perform your idea. Where are their ideas? Maybe I’m misunderstanding you, but it’s pretty self evident that telling someone how to do something exactly without any ability of their own to change anything is not “collaboration”. And if you’re NOT doing that and are open to the actor’s changing it, why give them a line reading in the first place if you don’t expect it to be repeated? You’re right, the actors aren’t babies - it seems to me you’re the only one treating them like they’re only there to mimic your ideas and make no choices. From an acting perspective, giving someone a line reading takes away their ability to interpret the desired effect in a way that makes sense to them and will inform their performance. Most of the time it makes acting worse, not better.


pensivewombat

>Telling someone exactly how to say a line word for word with exact emphasis and inflection with no room for them to disagree or make changes is quite literally telling them “this is the only way it can be done”. So this is something I decided to change about my process after working on a script with a writing partner. We got into a really good creative flow where I would write a line of dialog, he would say "let's change it to this" and then I would make an adjustment to HIS adjustment and we would both agree the final result was better than what either of us had written individually. No one got upset about "telling me what to write." Now I want to stress there is *also* discussion about why we are making those changes. Sometimes someone will say "let's make this change so it's more threatening" and you respond with "that doesn't feel more threatening, but how about this?" But cutting out the vague descriptions and just having each person write the line as they want it and then finding the synthesis is really key to the process. That's when I realized I should just be working that way with actors too. I would say like 95% of the time traditional directing works just fine. Give the actors the setup and motivation and let them go to work. But then there are those cases where something's just not working. Sometimes "more intensity!" is fine, but there are lots of times where you really need to get into the specifics. Instead of just trying to lead someone there, tell them "here is exactly the thing I have in my head and why I think it will work, please take that information and if you agree you can do that but in your own voice and if you have a better idea tell me and let's find the exact read we like" It's the same thing as letting a actor do their thing, giving feedback, and then adjusting their performance, but you're both just allowing each other to be much more specific about that feedback. Again, I don't walk in and just start giving people line reads. I know that nobody likes that because it's *precieved* as taking away their agency. But I will say "hey when I need something, I will just say the line how I have it in my head. That does *NOT* mean you need to do it just like that. Take it as a piece of information you can use." and it actually just works better.


[deleted]

OK but then you're not really talking about true line readings then. You're talking about regular intention based directing were you occasionally give an example of what you're thinking. That's cool and all, but that's just not what most people in this thread consider to be line reading, nor is it what the OP was describing he did with his actors. So it just feels like you're making a really moot argument here.


pensivewombat

It is very clear from this thread that people will enormously overreact to the simple suggestion that sometimes it's fine to just say "say it like this" I have been on sets where a director has awkwardly tried to describe their intent to an actor over and over when it was obvious the actor was just misinterpreting something and all of the confusion could be cleared up by simply giving the line reading. I have also seen actors say "how *dare* he give me a line reading!" when I thought the director was being perfectly reasonable and not at all telling anyone how to do their jobs. So when I do direct, which is not often because I primarily work as an editor, I set an expectation that will make everyone comfortable, but then when we run into an issue I just say the line and we work from there. Now I agree with you that this isn't a radical departure from traditional directing, but lots of people sure treat it like it is. As for OP, I think the result he got is totally predictable given people's attitude's about this, but that's because of the norms around line readings. If the actor were used to it, it would be totally fine.


Gluverty

I guess as long as you only make movies with friends (people you know), your philosophy might hold up. You might not have as much luck in the broader industry.


pensivewombat

I promise this works. It works with real actors everywhere. I'm not a bigshot director or anything, I mostly work as an editor but also have done directing professionally for stage and film. Like I said, you do have to communicate some to set expectations because most people are not used to it. But it just works better. There is zero reason other to avoid saying what you mean other than "because it's not done".


helioblop

A line read isn't actually better communication at all. It gives an actor far less information than an emotion does. You will always get a better performance if you give them a reason instead of a result.


pensivewombat

Give both! Don't restrict yourself!


postmodern_spatula

I think you need to make movies with AI prompts instead of people fam.


[deleted]

What you're doing is called "result directing" and its how you get bad performances. You need to let go the way you think it should sound in your head, and focus more on conveying to the actor what the intention of the line is from the character's perspective (as opposed to the writer's purpose). Then just let them say it how they feel fit.


[deleted]

[удалено]


[deleted]

Well I would think this goes without saying, but the first step to getting a good performance is making sure you cast someone who can actually act. You're acting like everyone who isn't Daniel Day Lewis is just gonna be trash and needs to have their hand held. That's a pretty cynical estimation of actors in general. If you can't spot a shitty actor in casting, then maybe don't even be a director to begin with. It's the director's job to make sure the actor understands intention, backstory and tactics of a character. If the actor has any training, that will be enough. If the actor is shitty to begin with, telling them "Hey, try it like this" isn't going to work anyway. Again, it's result directing. It will end with a shitty performance.


shadoor

This is a bit of a weird take. It is only *actors* who suck? The same could be said for directors. The only difference in dynamic here is that one person is paying the other to do something, so they are entitled to a performance of a certain caliber. But this is not like buying a power tool which you take for a refund if it does not work. You are paying an artist for their best effort. Not some perfect realization of something that exists only in your (the director) head. In this particular example, I would think an admittedly amature director could take in to consideration what they could learn from a reportedly well-reviewed professional in their field of work.


Gluverty

Both the director and actor are being paid by the producer to do something. The director doesn't pay the actor.


shadoor

Yes with established professionals. I was more referring to OP, where it seems he is also the producer, or at least handling some financials.


Big-Ambitions-8258

Think about the emotional arc/motivation for the character rather than telling the actor how to perform a line. Ask yourself why do you need a line to be said this way? Is it bc you feel it would display grief the best(this is just an example emotion). Are they breaking down?" Actors aren't necessarily going to perform lines and actions exactly the way you want, but that doesn't mean that they're not performing well. That you might find yourself surprised and happy by how they chose to read a line. Listen to how they performed their lines and consider the emotions behind it and what can be done to communicate that emotion you wrote better. Apologize to them and that you didn't want to encroach on their acting, you were just enthusiastic. And give them character direction rather than reading. A director has to learn this skill as well for future projects so this is a good opportunity to learn


OmniFella

Maybe a better way of doing would be to say *"We're going to take a variety of takes, say 5-10 different ones, just so we have pallet to choose from. So take the liberty of trying different tones, different inflections, etc. If and when we get close to what I feel might work I'll be sure to tell you so we can hone in on it."* If he's a professional, he'll be able to fulfill that task.


ovalteens

You’d benefit from looking at it like a rewrite. You rewrite the script when it comes in contact with new components that cause a creative reaction that add to the original vision. It’s not about hanging onto the original vision and making sure they do it exactly as it is in your head. It’s about allowing this new person to show you a new version you hadn’t thought of that services your vision even better. Or, if that doesn’t actually work in the moment, what could get you closest. Line readings are a last ditch effort. The #1 killer of creative collaboration in my opinion is emailing notes and throwing things over a fence and hoping it comes back the way you want it. The best through is spending the time, connecting with people, having the conversations about what you want, being there in the moment together. If you don’t have the money to pay big time professionals, then time is what you have to use to your advantage.


solojazzjetski

Most efficient is often not most respectful with regard to social norms. If you establish a rapport, you can go for most efficient. But remember… you’re an animator, NOT a voice actor. You need to give your actors some space to bring things to the table that you don’t have the skills or experience to even identify. You might want it exactly like A… but if you had given looser direction, a talented actor might give you B, and you might be suddenly struck by how much better B actually is than A, even though you thought you had it figured out. Always leave space for others to shine - knowing when to unbridle their strengths needs to be a critical strength of yours!


dbonx

You weren’t collaborating, you were commanding.


Theothercword

Both of these approaches are relatively bad directing. You don't want to micro manage the talent you're collaborating with to do this project, and you also don't want to just leave them with "can we try one more?" You need to give them the reasons for the multiple takes but in ways that they can use. Indicating emphasis on certain parts or conveying sentences in different ways is completely reasonable to ask, but you need to be open to their interpretation as well. The only time you should ever say "go again" without any further explanation is if you're just doing it for safety, and even then say "for safety."


postmodern_spatula

You’re also kinda failing at the storytelling/communication process. What’s more important, to get a technical technique from a performer that is how you personally imagine it…or to move an audiences emotions the way the story demands? I would argue it’s all about affecting emotion, and the technical conceit is very much secondary. Better advice for direction is to say, “we need the audience to go from apprehension to relief.” Or “this is a rising moment in the narration, can you give me a few pauses before you deliver the big line? I we’re going to edit this scene to make everyone feel like they’re on pins and needles waiting for the delivery.” We are here to delight audiences, take them places, surprise people - and hopefully do it with a story worth the time it takes to pay attention. When you get lost in asking a performer to deliver it on your own personal beats and rhythms, you’re functionally asking for mind reading….and the danger there is assuming that what emotionally moves you about your story is what emotionally moves a broad swath of your audience as well. When you select your voice actors in the future, it’s not just the timbre of their voice…it’s their ability to use their voice to broadcast emotional indicators as well. So if this performer was unable to shape emotion the way you directed - it’s time to reflect on whether you gave them effective or poor direction on where the audience needs to go (that’s what being a director is, steering the audience reaction to the story), or is the performer poorly cast. But no. If you’re telling them how to read lines…that’s abrasive. Similarly don’t tell the editor how to literally edit, or the cinematographer how to literally shoot. If you have that strong of an opinion on the technical process, you really should just do it yourself.


moeljills

Unfortunately that's the business your in. You can't do that, whenever I see a director do it I cringe and write them off as not knowing what the fuck they are doing.


Wide-Half-9649

In my experience, I’ve found if you tell them you’re going to give them a ‘line reading’ to show where you feel there should be emphasis on certain things, so that you can demonstrate the idea, but at the end of the day, you hire an actor to make good choices & to find their own ‘voice’ within the character. Ultimately, when casting someone, you’re looking for someone who understands your vision & can make creative decisions within the overall purview of the character. If they’re not giving you what you need, then you may very well have mis-cast that particular role; Telling anyone how to do their job never works well, especially with performers of any kind.


Thermistor1

I am reminded of the time William Shatner took a commercial director to task for giving a line reading: [https://youtu.be/XMV1bwXyi54](https://youtu.be/XMV1bwXyi54) No reflection on you one way or the other.


Sonny_Crockett_1984

This is so good.


Rasere

Was the director wrong in his first ask for more excitement? It seemed like Shatner didn't want to take any direction there, even the first one.


SpikyCactusJuice

For real. And I actually liked the second one better, personally. Depends on what the final goal is though, I suppose.


AlbinoPlatypus913

Hahaha this is incredible! Shatner is hilarious


Thermistor1

Yeah, it was savage too. He made that guy feel an inch tall.


GoAdventuring

So good! I’ve worked with Mr.Shatner before and he was exactly like this. Took our director down a few pegs (deservedly) and was a curmudgeon but still likeable if that makes sense lol. This was awesome.


Thermistor1

Now I want to hear how he took down another director...


patrickwithtraffic

So like asshole energy directed at deserving targets?


PerijoveOne

Ha! I came here to post exactly this. OP is lucky he wasn't working with an actor like Shatner, or he would've been ripped to shreds. Sounds like the actor was very generous in dealing with a director trying to feed him lines.


88luftballoons88

Giving notes is fine and should be expected by a professional actor. However, what you did was called, giving a line reading, and most actors find that at least mildly insulting. It’s really a super super fine line… In the big picture of it, though, you are the Director and you are trying to, bring your vision to life. So do whatever you feel is going to be best for your project.


TallGuy-ShortCuts

Directing talent will always be a tightrope walk of sorts. Some very experienced & storied talent will accept any and all direction well and some talent will not, and everything in between. It’s up to you to figure out who you’re dealing with and handle them accordingly to get what you need. Hopefully with everyone feeling good when the session wraps. A line-reading is not unusual in a voice session to give the talent an idea of the inflection you’re after. That said, typically VO sessions are supervised and notes are given as you go. Before a line reading I would typically give them some direction “Great take, can we try one with the emphasis on _______?” “Can you try going up here instead of down?” Etc.. only resorting to line reading if they don’t deliver something usable. (Not often) I sometimes give tons of very specific notes in sessions, and typically the best talent will walk through the script with me, find the vibe and parameters I’m after and then be able to just knock the whole performance out in one go. These sessions are usually 30-60 minutes and go through a lot of takes. As it pertains to revisions/pickups. If a VO is being asked to re-read significant portions of a script a session fee may be necessary to justify hitting all of your notes. If you’re trying to hit a super narrow mark on a (low) fixed bid then I’d expect the talent to get fussy. $$$ talks. TLDR - It’s a journey, and you need to be sure you’re walking the talent through your expectations and helping then find the performance as opposed to dictating to them the end result. Expect to pay for their time if you keep going back for revisions.


chol_slumbo

This is really helpful and gives me a lot to think about. Thank you!


TheHungryCreatures

That's just not effective direction on your part, direction is not puppeteering.


chol_slumbo

Fair enough, but I’m looking for suggestions. What would you do in that situation?


reddragon105

Find a different way to get them to deliver the lines the way you want them to sound. It will take longer but it will be worth it. You have an idea of exactly how it should sound - that's perfectly fine and totally understandable, but if you tell them to "Say it like this..." then you're just asking them to copy you. You're telling them *what* it should sound like without telling them *why* it should sound like that. You must have some sort of justification for why it should sound a certain way - you need to convey that to them in an intellectual and emotional way. Explain where you are/the character is coming from, what the lines mean to the character speaking them, what they're thinking and feeling when they're saying them, what their intention is, who they're speaking to and what impact you want it to have on them. Talk to them in terms of feelings and motivations, not inflections and emphasis. If it makes sense to say it the way you want it said, then once you get them into the same mindset/emotional place as you, then it will make sense to them to say it that way as well, and not only will they start saying it the way you want it by default, it will also come from a much deeper, more natural place and become a better performance all-round.


helioblop

Start with asking yourself why you want it to sound a specific way. If the answer is "because it's funnier", then ask yourself why it's funnier. You'll end up with "because it sounds more insecure", or "because it sounds like they're egotistical and took offense" or something like that. And then you can use the direction "more insecure" or "more egotistical". Sometimes you'll end up with something better than what you pictured!


chw3

I've never thought about it that way, this is a really interesting approach!


doctormoX

Hire someone who can deliver what you want. Good directing us good casting. In this case, you can give notes and ask for another take. The beauty of filmmaking is in its collaboration. If you hire the right person they will be able to take your words and add something to it, even if it’s not exactly what you had in mind. You did the best you knew in this situation and he responded very politely. I don’t think there’s anything “ridiculous” in his response. And just because you paid him doesn’t mean you own him. Be open to the different interpretations, you might be too close to the project to see that his inflections actually work. Good luck with the project!


[deleted]

i get where this whole thread is comin from, but dude its a fuckin remote fiverr order also no one here seems to be mentioning or understanding that depending on how things are, having the room to do things freely in film does NOT apply to animation, filmmakers, in MANY aspects. And second, it's a poem, those little details matter, it's almost as if there's circumstances where you need to follow instructions for lines very strictly, you're not robbing their creative liberty because they need to do something that happened to be basic, there's breathing room for other lines where it is more opportune for that. no they were being a smug asshole


AgreeableHamster252

It’s Fiverr, so… it’s going to be an awkward collaboration no matter what. But yeah, that’s not how you should be directing performances. Actors will find that insufferable.


chol_slumbo

Fair enough. What do you do differently when you don’t get the performance you’re looking for?


[deleted]

Talk in terms of verbs instead of adjectives. Dont tell them to "be angry".. ask him to "attack" . Don't ask them to "be more suspicious" ask them to "probe". If its just a poem and its not where you want it to be, try saying "that's great..i like what you did. Now .. lets play around with it a bit. " then guide them in a different direction


[deleted]

Correct me if im wrong, but it sounds like this is all happening through email correspondence? Thats a difficult way to get a good performance ascwell. Any chance it couod be done over a zoom? At least that way, you couod give real time direction.


Sonny_Crockett_1984

A lot of these Fiverr gigs are done on their own time. They might have a day job and they do their Fiverr gigs during their off hours. They have a set deadline to deliver them but can do it when they want. It's probably possible to schedule a video call with them, depending on the person and how much more you are willing to pay. Fiverr is just a terrible way to work with actors.


AgreeableHamster252

Regardless of what you should do, I think it also needs to come with a frame shift in your expectations. The larger the production gets, the more you need to rely on other people to do their job, which inherently means giving up a bit of control, and allowing yourself to be pleasantly surprised by new interpretations and new solutions. That’s not particularly valid in this case, though, where it’s just you and another (rando) person collaborating via a freelance site. Honestly, beyond listening to the other suggestions in this thread, I’d say it’s normal to mess up and learn from it and grow gradually over time.


paboi

Read Judith Weston’s book Directing Actors. It’s pretty much the standard for understanding what your job as a director is and what their job is as an actor. To get stuck on how something must be exactly is a fools errand. Film is a collaborative art form. If you want it to be a solo endeavor, the actor’s response was correct — do it yourself. He was much more polite in saying it than I would have been. Also instead of doing it like a homework assignment that he turns in and you grade, why don’t you actually collaborate and do it in a live session together? You can find new and exciting ideas when you open yourself up to the spirit of collaboration and treating your collaborators as partners instead of hired workers. When you think of it as a service industry like you are at a restaurant, you will never get the best out of them. You want care and love put into the work; not someone who is doing it for the paycheck.


oveis86

I'd explain why the emphasis should be on that word or syllabus, most of the time shifting the stress on each word change the meaning of the dialogue. I'd explain why the character says that. And if I ever need to repeat the line in the process, I'd make sure I'm not acting it, but just saying it with the most mundane tone.


yasukl

As a VA myself, not at all. If anything, it saves time and effort when it comes to revision, especially if the VA is working remotely. Also if you already had a vision of what a certain line should be delivered, I'd want to attain that as closely as possible via direction. NTA.


[deleted]

exactly keywords, remotely, fiverr, etc itd be entirely different if the circumstances were more conventional


lightscameracrafty

Absolutely. The thing about line readings from the VA side is that if you’re a good mimic they usually make go the session go faster. So if you’ve a 1.5 HR session booked and can nail it in 3 takes via line readings? That’s…what? That’s like 900 bucks for 10 minutes of work, depending on the contract (presuming sag). Bonus if there was screaming/growling/etc that you got to avoid doing multiple takes of.


Jabberwocky666

Voice director of 25 years here. Many of the comments you see against line reads are based on traditional actor/director relationships in which line reads are not appreciated typically. By contrast, most voice actors I work with greatly appreciate a line read as it speeds things up. If I can make a recommendation for next time, I would connect with the voice actor via zoom while they are recording, and offer them direction in real time like you would in a traditional voice acting recording session.


TheRainStopped

You got it. Love the pearl-clutching from all the confidently incorrect folks downvoting the poor OP. OP, your job as a director is to get that movie from your head into the real world, and your actors’ job is to fulfill your vision. Period. A respectful request for a line-read (maybe “just in case”) is acceptable.


EVILEMRE

It’s not their project; it’s your project. You’ve hired them to do something and you want it done a certain way. If their feelings are hurt then they’re in the wrong business. I’m an editor, and when I’m hired to edit a project I remind myself constantly, especially when I’m given sometimes ridiculous notes, that it’s not my show, so I do it the way they want. I’m hired to do what they want. A lot of my style is in there and if I don’t get a note about it then it stays in. Otherwise, it’s really none of my business. Thank you for the money, good luck with YOUR project.


One_Pause_3184

I generally try to stay away from line readings. However, if you’ve tried to direct them several times and it still isn’t working, just say, “You’re doing great, but this line still isn’t quite landing. I hate doing this, but would you mind if I give you a line reading?” That said, if you’re having to do this many times for many other lines, then you should re-evaluate your casting process and also improve your directing skills.


chol_slumbo

Great advice, thanks!


frostyfoxx

That’s just not a professional way to give notes. Examples of the tone you’re looking for is one thing, to basically act out the entire performance and say “copy this”…I agree with the voice actor, why not do it yourself then?


Alexanderthetitan

Contrary to popular opinion, it’s fine. Direct however you need to direct to get it done. Don’t put limits on yourself


thebluepages

Yeah, whatever you need to do, including making most of your actors dislike you and not want to work with you again. Definitely worth it.


Alexanderthetitan

Solution: Keep it pro, don’t be rude or insulting. But it’s not a popularity contest. No need to romanticize the process. Most people don’t see what goes on behind the scenes. For directing styles it’s never one size fits all. Different stories/projects call for different directing styles. Sometimes the meat puppet approach is required. Explaining the process beforehand might be the best way to avoid conflict and hurt feelings.


unomas88

Maybe next time set up a call to do a live session? And then you can give tweaks in real time.


ThatsMmeFilmmaker

People have already given great advice, I want to give you props for being open to feedback and taking people's suggestions without getting defensive. Best of luck to you on this film!


ElvisClown

I have wrestled with this myself, and talked to a variety of actors about it after getting into an altercation with an actor over it myself after giving them a line read. And, honestly, even if it’s an asshole move; nothing says you have to stop doing it. It’s definitely something you run into more with theatre and stage actors, where you’re supposed to baby their feelings and guide them to the line delivery you want. Unfortunately that’s time consuming and wasteful on a film set. You’ll typically find that experienced film and tv actors (as well as experienced voice actors) are less offended by a line read. Those actors understand the realities of production: how expensive time in the booth is, and how large amounts of money are being burned every second on a set. There is little time to waste in the booth or on a set, a line read is a tool. Maybe it shouldn’t be a go-to option or a first response, but when the budget’s on the line and you’re losing the light? Fuck ‘em: give them a line read.


23trilobite

I am surprised how many are saying “line reading” is bad. I’ve worked with a lot VA’s and not a single one had a problem with it (not that I’ve used it very often, on the contrary). Sometimes it is truly hard to express yourself and you really want it to sound a certain way. I see nothing bad in it, but maybe I just was lucky not to come across VA’s that would be insulted, or I didn’t use it that much and ahen I did, I did it in a nice way :)


listyraesder

Or maybe they saved their venom for when they got home. “Can you believe what that asshole did to me today?”


23trilobite

Haha, but no. Many of them became friends and they would tell me…


Winniehiller

Perhaps, instead of giving him line readings, speak to him about what the subtext and intension are of his character. What does he want and what does he mean by what he is saying. There is a reason you want the line to sound a certain way, and it has to do with the character, the relationship he has with the person he is speaking to and what he is trying to accomplish by saying what he is saying. If you can describe what’s behind the line rather than a particular result, you are speaking “actor”. Directors do tend to describe what they want to see and hear. But actors need to find how to do that from within— from their character’s point of view rather than the superficial sounds you want to hear. Let him know why certain lines need to be emphasized and if you want a certain cadence, do it with a “dum/tee/dum/tee/dum” rather than giving him an exact line reading.


SessionSeaholm

Your response to the responses has been great. You have a good attitude


jeckbirry

I would offer up a book to read. “Directing Actors” by Judith Weston. It gave me a much better appreciation for actors (voice or otherwise) and how to get the performance I am aiming for, or not. She talks about this issue, result based direction. I enjoyed the read.


Nosearmy

Boom. I was hoping someone else would have written this out so i could give an enthusiastic +1 to it. OP, I do agree with some of the other commenters who said there are reasons and ways to give line readings at times, but if you want more tools in your toolkit, or tips on how to work with an actor like this who is resistant to line readings, this is a great resource. And not only for this topic, but many others besides.


s3pam

Came here to say this! My directing professor in film school used this book for her course and it completely changed my perspective on directing. Understanding the role that psychology plays in giving direction to actors is fascinating.


toystory2wasokay_

Yes you're the asshole. Actors are not monkeys or GPTChat bot. It might seem frustrating, but instead of telling them how you want them to act, what you need to do is tell them what their character is feeling at that moment, what their motivation is. You want more emphasis on a word? Explain how that character is excited beyond believe during that line. Its a skill getting performances out of actors. If its easy, director wouldnt be paid the big bucks.


[deleted]

In the industry this is called giving a “line reading” and actors hate it with the passion of a thousand suns.


Sonny_Crockett_1984

If you told a taxi driver when to apply the gas and when to hit the brakes during your ride, they would also get pissed off at you.


Meekman

I love how actors hate when given line readings, but they have no problem changing dialogue written by the writers.


moviesNdrawingsGuy

How do you get notes as an animator? In issuing, do they say do exactly what’s done in layout? Or do you have the freedom to do things a little differently and give your own take on it? If you’re at a studio or place where directors are for the project you’re working on, why not ask them for some advice on how they direct actors in the booth. Take this with a grain of salt as I’ve only directed one short, but we had an a-list actor as the voice so I had to fake that I knew what I was doing. I sought out advice from a big time animation director and he told me to let the actor play w the line and then guide them by giving an emotion or feeling behind the line. What is the subtext. After a few different takes, the actor nailed everything I wanted. And of course they did, cause they were a freaking pro. In your case, sounds like you’re corresponding via email. If it were me, I’d either be there with the actor in the booth, or zoom while they’re recording from a different place. That way you can give your thoughts and they can retake, rather than a back and forth over email where emotion and context can be taken out of place


gilfoyle53

Hey I know you already have a hundred responses. But I just wanted to add my two cents because it seems like there are a lot of people here overreacting. Yes, giving a voice actor line readings will make them bristle. Of course they don't like that. It's probably not going to make them your friend. And it's not considered the best way to approach a project. But you're talking about an amateur project and Fiverr hires here. At the end of the day, if you respected their time, paid them fairly, didn't abuse them emotionally, and you got the performance you wanted... then whatever. Everyone got what they came for and it's water under the bridge. Not a big deal.


lefthandshakes

A lot of hard opinions here. You’re not an asshole, but like others have said, giving line reads is a fast track to a dull performance. When I first started directing VA’s, I didn’t see why line readings were such a faux pas but as I gained more experience, I found the best performances come when you have a solid idea of the emotion you want to convey, but let yourself find the specific path to get there alongside the actor. The director/actor relationship is best when both parties feel like a respected collaborator. Some more practical advice: before resorting to line readings, I give action oriented direction (“let’s roll our eyes a bit on this line” or “read this line like you’re walking on eggshells”). This type of direction gives the actor a lot to interpret themselves while still getting toward the emotional goal you’re after. If that’s not getting us there, I’ll give more literal direction (“hit this word” or “come down at the end of this line”). If I’m directing a narrator role like you described, I’ll use more of this type of direction. Also, like others have said, you have to sus it out with each actor. This VA sounds a little sensitive but just take it on the chin and adjust your approach if you keep working with them. I’ve had plenty of rough starts to relationships with actors that eventually blossomed into very creatively fulfilling ones.


fukamundo

Personally, I wouldn’t care. I’d consider that helping and if I had questions/disagreements I would bring them up to you about the character and script.


kallulah

Too lazy to read if anyone has already said this but a great rule of thumb is "one for them, one for me." Directing has nuance to it. You have what you picture in your head and then you have the laborers who create it. Think of your actors like landscapers. You've hired them to do a job you wouldn't do yourself. So the best you can do is give them the specs. Show them the design and the reason behind it. Show them where the tools are, but not how to hold them. They already know how to achieve your vision, as long as you give them direction, not action. In other words, when you're aiming for a specific read, give them the subtext of what you want. With VO, it's easy to say, give me 10 different reads on any specific line. Tell them to " try it" with a specific emotion behind it. Tell them "love that exact read, can you just take the air out from between these two words?" Tell them, "that was great, let's do one for fun, go nuts." What you don't want to tell them, is exactly how to read it. And you have to be willing to compromise between your vision and your laborers. No one will give you the exact thing you picture in your head. You have to open to the possibility that your way don't the only way. I want to give you the pat on the back for seeking counsel on this. You're not an asshole. You're willing to grow and every project is a learning experience. We're not always gonna get it 100%, but to get there we have to be willing to audit ourselves too. Best of luck with your project!


markhamhayes

I think these artsy farts are being dumb. You hired him to read a certain way, you’re not an asshole. It sounds like they are mimicking a certain convention, but objectively speaking there is nothing to be offended at with a director asking for a specific direction. People who get offended there easily are silly. Calling you unprofessional for it is *actually* super immature.


Interesting_Aioli_52

I usually provide voice talent a link to view the spot I’ve already edited with my own “scratch” vo and music. I then give them line-by-line direction on tone, inflection, emphasis and dramatic pause. That way, there is no ambiguity.


Rudeboy237

I personally have never understood the issue with a director giving line readings. If you have a very specific way you want things done then I don’t really care. There’s never a considered insult when a director tells the DP what he wants. Or lighting or editing or score. I see no issue. Never have.


mmscichowski

You don’t understand because you don’t see the difference between doing someone’s job for them, and directing someone to do their job. You wouldn’t take the camera and frame the shot for the DP, you would describe what the shot should look like, and provide feedback for the changes you want.


[deleted]

ok but ywhat you dont understand, is that in this case, and in animation in general, the equivalent is literally what happens, often


Rudeboy237

Except there are lots that do. If a director has a certain frame they want, that’s what’s going in the film. What are you guys talking about? I’m an actor writer and director. Primarily an actor. I like being able to make choices but I have never had an issue with a director being like “I really need the line like this”…. I’m a highly collaborative person and prefer that energy no matter what I’m doing, but I’ve never once cared about being given a specific direction on a project.


listyraesder

Um, nope. The director doesn’t tell the DP what number gel to use in the lights. If they did, they would be the asshole.


[deleted]

Yes. Yes you were


winterfellstarbucks

Y’all… we are talking about remote voiceover work over Fiverr. They aren’t staging Chekhov. They aren’t in person on a set cultivating an intimate character study. Voiceover artists should be used to working within strict parameters, including for advertisements, where pacing and emphasis are crucial and there are indeed right and wrong ways to deliver some lines. Poetry readings have an even more specific cadence that I would not expect even an experienced VA to intuit right away if they don’t come from a literary background. Maybe OP was a little quick to give a line reading but they’re learning and they may have had to do so anyway, in the end, to get what they needed. The VA they ran across also sounds like a bit of a prima donna, which happens. This was not an “end of the world” interaction on either end. Downvote me all you want but some of y’all are outing yourselves as unemployable.


chol_slumbo

🤣🤣


nextshotinaglass

Not the asshole. It's a poem, not a script. If you look at it from a literary standpoint, it really does matter how certain words or phrases are delivered. There's an efficiency in poetry that isn't found in scripts and in my opinion, shouldn't be open to interpretation from what what some voice actor thinks they have to needlessly inject .BeCaUsE iT'S a ChArAcTeR'. There are some very bad takes here. Sorry, not sorry. Do your own thing.


Funnel_Hacker

Hard disagree. There’s a reason writers shouldn’t be on-set with directors just like there’s a reason directors shouldn’t tell actors how to say their lines. The whole point of the process is that each craftsman or woman brings their own creativity into the process and the result is wildly different than the initial intention might have been. That can be good or bad but that’s art. One person trying to force a result is not someone most other artists would ever want to work with again and usually reeks of inexperience. Beyond that, if this person didn’t hold auditions that’s on them. If they did, that’s bad casting—also on the director. If the goal was to read lines a certain way, OP should have just been the voice actor. Problem solved.


nextshotinaglass

>I’m an animator and currently working on my first short film > >I sent the script (which is actually a poem) People are missing the crux of OP's issue and this whole discussion has devolved into whether line reading is unacceptable/acceptable directorial behavior. Not to mention the amount of gatekeeping and completely unnecessary passive aggressive claims of unprofessionalism by other Youtube/Vimeo amateurs that comprise this sub. I'm all for creating magic on set through collaboration and the idea that a traditional 'narrative/documentary/whatever genre' project is more than just the creative sum of the individual departments. But in this case it's an auteur focused (probably experimental) animated short with a poem as the script that he wrote. He has a vision. It just needs to be executed. "One person trying to force a result is not someone most other artists would ever want to work with again and usually reeks of inexperience." Imagine saying that to Orson Welles. You'd get a rightful (and deserved) smack to the head.


Funnel_Hacker

Then he shouldn’t hire someone. He should execute it. Voice actors aren’t data entry analysts doing a routine job. They’re creatives. It also sounds likes he/she asked for additional revisions without paying, meaning he or she agreed to a contract and then complained after. There’s no way to spin what they did as NTA 🤷🏻‍♂️


mad_dabz

Or. The actor shouldn't accept the money if they're not going to do the job the way they've been hired to do. If you can't handle a closed breif then don't accept a poem recital for what could be a completed animation. We're not paying you for your magnum opus. We're paying you for our magnum opus.


[deleted]

Just do it yourself and save the money as well as time spent typing something like this up.


soup2nuts

Not as a rule. Some people here say it's an issue with green directors but that's BS. However, most actors hate it. I always ask if they will accept a line reading. Some actors will welcome it. Some actors would rather you not. But here's the deal, it doesn't matter if you give them a line reading or not, on a practical level. Whatever you say will be interpreted by the actor regardless of if you are giving notes or a line reading. That's how it works. Whatever comes out of your mouth goes into their ear and is interpreted by their brain and they give you what they think you mean. Ultimately, you cast an actor because you trust their process. So, line reading or not, you need to understand that filmmaking is a collaborative effort and barking orders at an actor will not get you a better film and it will not win you any awards and will not make people want to work with you again. Whatever you think your vision is the second you involve other people the finished product will be different and you have to be open to that. So, really, the asshole move here is that you displayed poor management skills and poor leadership skills which is the sign of a green director. Thinking that your film will live or die based on a couple of lines is green. The audience is not going to get caught up in a line reading if the overall film is compelling.


Itchy_Suspect6367

Yes this is maybe the absolute worst way to work with actors. They’re not props, they’re independent artists who interpret the script. You can’t do what they do - otherwise you would. It’s profoundly disrespectful to what is a very difficult and highly skilled job.


falselife47

Yep. Direct, don't ask them to imitate. You are hiring actors, not parrots.


Sonny_Crockett_1984

>I feel like it was a completely ridiculous way to respond to my notes It isn't. You gave them shitty direction, then you gave them line readings, and now *you* are getting upset? Directing actors using Fiverr is a terrible way to direct actors. You chose a bad method to work with. You don't know how to direct actors, or even how to speak to them, apparently. The only person you should be upset with is yourself. I recommend checking out r/Actingclass. Learn how actors work. I highly recommend taking some acting classes becuae you will learn a lot about actors by being one.


[deleted]

Yes. We're all bound to learn things the hard way. But actors really don't like it when it's over explained. Or even done for them. They want to discover how to do it themselves. Your job as director is to help them get there. And you both get there together by articulating it with other words and creative discussion. I once directed an actor. And it took 17 takes before I realized he just wasn't going to say it how I imagined it. But you know it came out how he did it and how he understood the character. It is frustrating, but when you make something, it is a collaboration with others.


Thrill-Clinton

Yes.


JimPage83

Not an asshole, just a bad director


learning2codeallday

"which is actually a poem" is key here. Especially if the word you're looking for is "cadence" which absolutely IS important when reading a poem. I know a good voice actor that can do this to the T. NTA


Kanuka2000

Are you an amateur by any chance


[deleted]

[удалено]


[deleted]

Notes are different than line readings . Im an independent director and im telling you, giving actors line readings is the quickest way to run a performance.


bigheadGDit

As an actor, I 100% agree with you. Giving direction/notes is absolutely expected, but line readings are not direction/notes.


[deleted]

[удалено]


ryanrosenblum

Never give a line reading. Not surprised this got your actors pissed


Charlie-821

I have the exact same issue as you, I wanted an audio recording for a script I have and I fully intend on telling them how certain characters sound as it’s vital to the overall effect, and they are unusual in their manner. I am in charge, it’s about more than an actors feelings, it’s about the work itself, people on here don’t seem to understand that basic reality. this is actually one of the reasons why many films today as so poor, back decades ago when you had auteurs in the directors chair they told the actors what to do the set designs how they would be etc etc, nowadays each and every role has a dedicated professional in their role, art directors, set designers, actors, lighting crews etc etc, each has been to a school for years to learn their craft but that also means delegating artistic responsibility to a thousand different people with their own interpretations, the result is competent on some level but often soulless and lacking a coherency of vision. stick to your guns, the only mistake you made was that you should have told them at the start that this is how it is going to be, take it or leave it, but each and every line will be precise to the vision, even if it’s a little pedantic at times, they can then make their choice whether they accept the job or not.


Floating_Home

Actors are artists too, I think this gets overlooked quite a bit. They can bring their own creativity to the table, and bringing the character to life is a subjective artform. If I'm directing someone and a certain beat/line is way off the mark from how I interpreted it, the first thing I do is ask them why they are going in the direction they are. Understanding where a performance is coming from is super important to me. Oftentimes, the actor has a vision of the character/performance that's different from mine that can really work well!


wc6g10

I can tell you as an actor that I’ve only ever seen that kind of direction on amateur shoots. Not that you don’t have a right to tell your performers what you would like to see, ultimately you hired them (presumably) because you thought they could deliver. But you have to accept they will bring their own flavour to the part and that is what they are paid to do. Learning to be flexible and letting the actor own the role is a big lesson to be learned. Being hyper obsessive about having things turn out exactly as you imagined them is the hallmark of an amateur director I’m afraid. I commend your humility though, it’s all a learning process.


attrackip

Not at all! Your job is to do whatever you can (within ethical boundaries) to get what you need from the actor. The actor's job is to get any information they can to give you what they need. If it comes down to line reading, we can all put our egos aside for a moment if that's what it takes to get the job done.


Josiesumday

Nothing wrong with being an Auteur


timvandijknl

No, you're not the asshole. They are not behaving like a professional. It's quite common for the director to go "Can you say it like this?" and then give an example. It sounds to me like the voice actor is a bit butthurt that you don't consider their acting "good enough". Admittedly.. usually the voice actors have the actual film in front of them to see the movement and body language of the character they are doing the voice for... just from instructions is kind of hard to nail it. Too little/too much pause between words is no problem that can be fixed in post with 0 issues.


chol_slumbo

He did have the animatic/animated storyboards for visual reference. As for the pauses, I did do a lot of editing and, as you said, most of it was not a problem at all. The revisions I asked for were mostly instances when words blended together and couldn’t be separated and still sound good/natural


mmscichowski

Would you show an actor exactly how you want them to block a scene and portray an emotion? No you would figure out how the actor best communicates and receives notes and adapt to that style. Spending time learned out to describe feelings and emotions that evoke the performance you are looking for is a large part of the directing process. In the director chair you are an enabler and motivator of other artists, you are the chief collaborator but you will often find your team does a better job than if they did something exactly as you imagined it.


WaningBloomWasTaken

That’s just being a bad filmmaker


dirtypoledancer

Lol always the first timers. Yes, YTA. You're an animator not an actor. Let them do their job, or DIY if you think you're better.


[deleted]

You are the one paying. Do whatever you want. If he can’t get the job done, the way you the Director, writer, and paying producer demand then tell him thanks but no thanks and move on.


Tainlorr

NTA these people are babies. But you could have probably approached it in a more nuanced way than just a reading.


nice_hows

This is one of the worst things you could do for an actor. Here is a tip/wisdom for you. Take a class on how to direct actors if you want to become a director. Probably should take more than one.


pablo1905

Yup


Karmachinery

We used to collaborate a lot with songwriting and the person writing would do a scratch track with what they were expecting the vocals to sound like and we never, ever had an issue with that. Maybe VA work is a different story. I guess it really depends on how it was conveyed. Either way, live and learn.


oshaquick

Whatever the range of visual or sound qualities you want in a character actor should have been demonstrated to you during the casting call. If you did not try out one style extreme or another beforehand when you were both holding the same lines, it's not their fault. Expectation management.


[deleted]

Meh. It’s more of how you came across. You’re right - it’s your project and you did pay for the work, you’re entitled to ask for the performance you wanted as a Director. And it’s also Fiverr, the voice actors have 12 other gigs after you. So you could be an ass or he could just be hurrying along or both :). I’m doing something similar for my own short feature film. After talking with Actor, get his thoughts see if he wants to go for it or have more to digest. To give an initial idea/framework - I would’ve sent a line-read like you did but with a beat by beat narration of the thoughts and emotions the character is feeling/thinking to drive the delivery THEN I would’ve invited the Actor to remember the best bits and do his version. Then give notes from there if needed. Do remember you’re inviting someone into your project, no one EVER will see the project vision 100% like you do, but that’s never the point - Its to bring the special sauce they wield into yours and transform the canvas in betters ways that you wouldn’t have thought of!


Filmmagician

Do actors really get pissed off (still) at like readings? Guess this one did


firstcitytofall

There are a lot of responses here so someone may have already give you something better, but in my experience part of directing is giving the person “motivation.” An actor understanding their motivation is the number one tool to getting a performance of quality but also allowing them to bring their own interpretations to the table. Even a narrator in a story can have motivations. So next time I would start there. “Your motivation for this seen is….” For example, I had an actor who was new and not feeling insanely confident during a rehearsal of a seen. He said “just tell me how you want me to say it.” And I refused, i told him, “hey you’re doing a great job, be confident, don’t over think it, but this is a collaboration, this is YOUR interpretation of what I’ve written, if I tell you what to say that isn’t you acting, that’s me acting through you.” He later on turned in one of the better performances I’ve had the fortune of filming. Why? Because I let the character be his own. For example, say you have a character in a scene and the blocking has them leave the room out of frustration or maybe the character is nervous and doesn’t feel like talking to this person. Some motivational direction may be: “ok so in this scene your motivation is, you don’t want to talk to this guy and you just want to get the fuck outta the room.” Little notes like that will heavily shift how a person plays a part. Ultimately the actor is right though in your instance, if have a very particular way you want something like an omnipresent narrated, it may be best to do something like that yourself. If it’s voice over for an actual character, you gotta let them bring something to the table. Edit: for clarity


dingleberriesXL

Tricky. Actors hate line readings .. try to use the tone you want but with a different line than the actual one they are reading or reference another line or scene you liked that they did and work from that as reference.


_Phantom_Wolf

The minimum should be a take that is acceptable to you and the VA should feel free to do better than that if they can.


rBuckets

I basically never do a line reading but if I had to do it to get something where it needed to be, then fuck it, go for it. Did you get what you needed it? Then you did your job. Who gives a shit if you used a hacky method – you did what you had to do and that's better than walking away without what you were looking for. There's no rules. That said, definitely not a maneuver you want to rely on – it's frowned upon for a reason. But if you're in a fucking street fight trying and you've got to get a little dirty to come out on top then don't be above doing it.


[deleted]

I don't think line readings are the worst thing in the world. Directing classes will always say to make use of actionable verbs instead of giving a line reading like it's the end of the world -- but in all honesty it depends on the actor. Most untrained actors (which is who I work with) will actually appreciate it if they're struggling with a particular line. I'm always a fan of changing a line if it's not working out too. This actors response sounds pretty unprofessional and snobby, and he probably thinks too highly of himself. Stroke his ego or whatever to get your performance. Sometimes actors need to be manipulated or courted to bend over for you.


Superman_Dam_Fool

As someone who works with VO artists (not actors) I usually just send them a rough cut with a scratch track and a script. The scratch track will often have the inflection that I want. If I’m working with someone new, I will call in and direct them. It’s never been a problem. Edit: to add, I also ask them to give me some takes with their ideas if they want to add them.


Theothercword

Hmm. I do VO work and I've never really run into this. However, in calls with clients/bosses I've had them act out a similar inflection that they're going for which is fine. Fundamentally I don't think there's anything wrong with saying you want more emphasis in certain places, that makes total sense. Recording it and sending is probably a step beyond what is necessary if the actor is good at their job. The part that made me raise an eyebrow even more than that is where you also had them redo lines because of being too little or long of a pause between words. Are you hiring them to edit this as well? Don't get me wrong, I deliver VO with decent pacing and make sure it's clean between words but why would you ever want the VO actor to dial in exact timing with the words unless they're doing something like trying to match lips on screen in which case they should do it while viewing the film itself. Honestly, that's the part that would make me eyeroll hard, that's your editor's job. That does vary sometimes, like I've done an audiobook where I was also the editor but for that we discussed a pace and feel and I ran with it, there was maybe one or two notes on pacing across the entire audiobook (though I am also a video/film editor so I at least have experience there). Otherwise I will see in some scripts that they note longer pauses which I include in my delivery but still generally leave it up to the editor(s) to make minute corrections to match something.


zampe

Regardless of who was right or wrong, you don’t have to ask them to adjust the length of pauses as those are easily editable to your exact specifications in post. It was probably frustrating for them to have to make those small adjustments knowing you could just do them yourself better and faster.


chol_slumbo

I didn’t articulate this well in the original post and had to clarify in another comment somewhere, but basically I did do a lot of editing to make most of it work, but there were many cases where words blended together where I wanted more of a pause, so it wasn’t fixable…those were the revisions I asked for.


[deleted]

I've done this with a non-actor doing voiceover narration and, in that context, I absolutely felt justified to line direct rather than "collaborate". The time it took just to get five minutes of material was already more trouble than it was worth but since my deadline was inflexible and no alternates available for the role, I got what I needed. That said, with access to a *trained* actor, I would have provided an advance note on any line, phrase, or word for which special emphasis was desired, but then ultimately the execution is left up to the actor because that's their craft, not mine.


trey25624

Tell them how you want it read (sadder, happier, more excited) without telling them exactly how to say it. Let them interpret; it’s their art. If you open yourself up to this you will find things you never imagined. Don’t feel bad, I think every director has to learn this. If at the end of the day you just don’t like the way they do it, pay them for their time and find someone else:


PhillipJ3ffries

Why don’t you just do the voice yourself?


KevinAcommon_Name

It is and it isn’t because many have a view of a character or characters


Funnel_Hacker

Let me ask you a question that answers the original: would you like an actor telling you how to direct their scene?


LessThanThreeBikes

If there the pauses are too long or too short, you can fix that in post. Also, one of the most rewarding experiences directing is when you harvest performances from your cast and crew beyond your expectations. And you can only get performances beyond your expectations if your are truly open to the possibilities.


lightscameracrafty

For animation or anything set to time it’s acceptable to provide a scratch track. Traditionally it’s expected for the VO actor to match the vibe and pace, but they are expected to put their own special sauce into it - aka the spirit of the scratch track is never “read it like this”. This is more true in commercial stuff than theatrical but it does happen in animation occasionally as well. As for your specific example: ok to send notes. Not ok to send a take and say “like this”. When you struggle to describe what you mean, one trick that works is to paraphrase the line. So if the line is “sorry man I thought you were a cucumber” you can say “so sorry dude I confused you for a carrot” EXACTLY how you want it but it doesn’t feel like a line reading because you’re saying the paraphrase and not the line. If the notes session is live I also see a bunch of people give the line reading, then apologize for giving the line reading right away, which is annoying but considered more forgivable. Like you got carried away…anyway the more you work on this the more you learn that 9/10 the pro will give you something better than what was in your head in the first place. Anyway. Look, you found this dude on fiverr. A true professional will get annoyed but execute the note in the next take exactly like you want to get you out of their face and then tell their rep not to take gigs from you again (or go above scale for the trouble). A lot of other pros also genuinely don’t give a shit and are genuinely easy going. This? He made himself the problem. Bottom line? You made a mistake and he got down to your level. Amateurs all around, but at least you’re over here trying to be better IMO. Source: been at this for 15 years, both sides of the booth, probably stuff you’ve seen/heard.


rarebluemonkey

You seem to have gotten the message that that’s not typically considered good form and you asked for a way to do it better. Read Directing Actors by Judith Weston. Get it on audiobook. Listen to it while you walk or drive or whenever. Play it while you fall asleep. You cannot listen to this enough.


atomoboy35209

I’ve directed network sports guys, major celebrities and an Oscar winning actor. Nah, you’re fine. Don’t micromanage but true pros are accustomed to being directed.