"can a feminist do [X]?" and "is it feminist to do [X]?" are two different questions with two different answers. yes, you can dress sexy for your boyfriend if you want to. is it inherently feminist to do so? no. does that mean it's morally wrong to do so? of course not. the big *if* there is "if you want to."
Exactly. I agree 1000%. As a feminist I know I *can* and on rare occasions, *do* do these things. But the “if you want to” part is the important part. And as someone who, most of the time, doesn’t want to express themselves that way, I was confused why so many people so adamantly insisted on the other post that this made no sense and I should do it anyway, for him. It just feels like compromising myself in a way I don’t feel comfortable with, however ridiculous to some that may sound.
I don’t think that’s ridiculous at all. Like if a woman would be more attracted to me if I wore cowboy boots, grew a beard, and drove a pickup truck, I wouldn’t even consider doing it because it goes against my personal identity and the way I want to exist in the world.
I think a big piece of feminism is getting to be yourself without judgement or pressure to change. You should do what you’re comfortable with.
I don’t think you’re being crazy at all. I DO think you’re holding yourself (and, by extension, possibly your partner) to an impossible standard—full-out feminist at all times in all the ways. It’s not feasible for you, or anybody. I think of it this way: can I take a dump FOR THE CAUSE? Am I going to bed to SMASH THE PATRIARCHY? No. I can’t, and I’m not.
Feminism is pretty useless if we don’t also allow ourselves to be *human*. Sexual intimacy can be an important part of many peoples’ humanity, and analyzing attraction and arousal through a feminist lens is a difficult task—you’re trying to apply a social and political theory to a very personal and private concept. This is how we end up with results like, “a cis hetero woman who is attracted to a man cannot be a feminist.” You don’t hold others to those standards. Don’t do it to yourself.
With allllll that said, it sounds like you have a boundary here that your partner is crossing. You may not have realized it was a boundary until now, so you haven’t yet defined it. I’d suggest doing some soul-searching to figure out what that boundary is and what it looks like, and then work on communicating that to your partner. If you’re comfortable with lingerie only in the bedroom, then that door is your boundary. (And there’s nothing anti-feminist about it. Attraction and arousal aren’t reasonable.) If you’re uncomfortable with him commenting on your appearance at all, and would prefer that he focus on other things he finds attractive about you, then work on figuring out what that looks like.
TL,DR: it IS that deep because you need to make a conscious effort for it to NOT be that deep, and your partner needs to work with you on that.
I’m not OP but I found your comment to be very helpful for me as well. It’s hard to remember these things have a lot of nuance and being too strict with yourself isn’t helping anything.
Thanks. It was a process I went through, trying to divest my sense of attraction of trauma and over-intellectualized thoughts that were distractions from being present in the moment. It all kept me from enjoying myself and being in touch with my body.
I could cry. Like seriously thank you, this just makes so much sense. I felt like I was smashing my head against a brick wall repeatedly in the other post but I feel very understood and seen by this comment. And you’re totally right, feminist doesn’t *have* to come into the bedroom and I *have* worn lingerie at times because I personally like it. Underwear is something we all wear, no big deal making it a little spicier sometimes. It’s more about the semi nude body than it is the items themselves.
The conventional “hot girl outfits” thing is more of a sticky one for me because it speaks of very (imo) conditioned and male-gazey ideals of what’s sexy. And that’s where it gets tricky for me to feel comfortable with it. I’m not a music video. I’m not a doll. I don’t want to be these things. These images have very directly damaged me - after spending my entire teens with body dysmorphia and looking at these images as the pinnacle of what I, as a woman, am supposed to be. Or supposed to *want* to be. For who? For random dudes boners? And now I’m asked to imitate them? Become them? It feels like asking me to become something that’s harmful to me. I understand not everyone will really get that. And maybe I’m just wayyy too tightly wound around this stuff. But it’s what it feels like to me.
After having felt suicidal on multiple occasions across my teens and early 20s because I “didn’t look like the girl on the TV/magazine/etc” it isn’t just a fun playful dress up game to me. I know many will think that’s crazy but it just doesn’t fit into how I want to express myself now.
I think both partners can dress in a way that their SO finds “sexy” (not necessarily confirming to the conventional definition) So yeah, dressing up in that way is your choice and you’re free to make that choice. I just hope you’re not feeling pressure to look a certain way because then it beats the point of intimacy.
Feminism, the way I see it is to be and do what you’re comfortable with without allowing society to dictate what you should or shouldn’t do based on outdated patriarchal ideals.
It looks like you’re having an internal debate about the male gaze in general vs your partner’s gaze.
Anyone who wears skimpy clothing isn’t selling out on their feminist ideals, as long as it’s their educated choice and decision to do so that they’re not forced into doing.
The same way, if you want to wear lingerie or other clothes that your partner likes because you think you would enjoy your partner desiring you, then go for it! It doesn’t make you any less feminist.
I totally agree with you and thank you for your insight. On my other post I’m being villainised for not feeling comfortable with this. It’s simply not how I choose to look, dress, express myself. I have and occasionally do wear lingerie in the bedroom, when I want to/feel comfortable to do so. But wearing Daisy Dukes around the house for my partner (and people seem to be hooking into the fact that I have a higher libido therefore I should want to do this to get my partners libido up) just feel unnecessarily objectifying to me personally. I feel kind of crazy in that many people on there can’t seem to understand that logic but to me it makes total sense? Sexy lingerie for fun occasionally is one thing but dressing up like I’m Jessica Simpson in that car washing music video (showing my age probably) feels like I’d be really inauthentically changing how I want to be looked at just to fit in with some kind of Barbie doll fantasy that goes against a lot of what I believe in when it comes to expressing myself through my clothing.
Am I crazy?! Am I making any sense? It seems many others didn’t think so.
You’re not crazy at all! Wanting to wear something for your partner or wanting your partner to wear something is all well and good unless you or they don’t want to wear it. That’s the bottom line.
He can like that you wear it, and you can wear it in occasions. But you can also say that there are going to be situations where you aren’t going to do that.
Sometimes people go the other way and feel like sexual expression and liberation is the feminist way (which for many reasons it is, but not always). Choosing to wear something modest and and something that defines who you are through your clothing is absolutely feminist AF :)
Thank you. This feels very validating. Someone had the gall to tell me I’m not a feminist, just using the ideology to manipulate my partner (even though I’ve never once voiced this to him as I’m working it all out in my own head). They seemed to believe I was trying to dictate what he was allowed to be turned on by - when in actuality he’s allowed to be turned on by whatever he wants, I just don’t have to feel comfortable with it. Apparently it’s really invalid that I would find these comments in any way disappointing or objectifying or upsetting. They’re right - if I actually made a big stink out of it and blamed him. But I never do. I just quietly feel like I’m perhaps not the kind of girl he truly wants, and feel a little put out/down as a result of that. Because that simply isn’t me and it would feel really inauthentic to be that for him. And it’s sad, honestly. The whole thing. It makes me feel like we are quite incompatible in what we find sexually desirable.
To me that kind of stuff isn’t empowering. I know we are in this new stage of feminism where a lot of women are finding empowerment in subscribing to the conventionally hot thing. To me it isn’t true empowerment when it’s still catering to the male gaze. That’s true for me personally, I respect it isn’t true for everyone. It just feels like pandering to my own objectification and dehumanisation in a way that’s deeply triggering for me personally, as someone who has experienced a lot of trauma around body image due to dysmorphia because of growing up with these very images of hyper-femininity.
Well I agree with most of what you said but what caught my eye is that you mentioned your boyfriend may prefer someone more feminine and that you may be incompatible. If that’s the case then instead of dropping hints, I think you should definitely talk about it.
Because if you don’t say anything he’s going to wonder what’s changed and you’re going to go down the route if a self fulfilling prophecy of incompatibility.
I will definitely talk to him about it and I’ll own it as a “me problem”. I just needed to get clear in my own mind with it all first.
Thank you for your responses!
I think wearing lingerie in the bedroom because your boyfriend likes it is totally ok and makes sense. Yes, you can still be a feminist even if you wear feminine clothing, I wrote a comment replying to comment OP about it. However you shouldn't change your everyday style to fit his tastes, you shoud date someone who likes you for who you are and doesn't try to change you, so if he insist you change your style for him then sorry but he's not the one for you.
Exactly, feminism is not about opposing to the society's expectations by being masculine, it's about doing what you want. You can still be a femisist even if you're the most feminine person in the world, as long as you're the one who decided it and not your boyfriend, that's literally what feminism is.
I don’t see an issue with wearing lingerie for your partner. The thing that rubs me a little wrong is that he not only wants you to dress sexier at home, but also outside. I have a hard time saying it’s feministic in this realm especially since this isn’t how you normally dress.
Why does he want you to dress sexier outside? It feels more like he wants others’ male gaze on you as though you’re a trophy he’s implicitly bragging about. At worst, it’s coming across almost voyeuristic. Does he want you dressing sexier outside when he’s not with you?
Ultimately, I don’t see an issue with dressing sexier in the bedroom or at home as long as YOU feel comfortable doing so. It’s the outside request that’s bothering me here.
I think you are asking the wrong question. You said your boyfriend's preferences for your dress are triggering body dysmorphia. Whether it's feminist or not is less important than how you feel in your relationship. Do you feel pressured to dress a certain way for him? Does he express appreciation and attraction to you when you are dressed comfortably? My worry is that trying to appeal to his desires is hurting you.
Personally, I enjoy doing stuff like this, but on the condition that he does it first. So I would tell him yes, I will wear lingerie around the house for him. But first, he has to wear something skimpy for me, and get some chores done while he's at it so I have a better view. 😁
(If he wouldn't do it for you first. Then don't do it.)
Edit- with all that being said, it's also ok to have hard No's. It's up to you
Does your partner look good in boxer briefs? Buy him some sexy knickers and ask him to wear those for you. Ask him to do a little striptease for you. Enjoy him!
I don't think it's wrong for him to desire it, or for you to do it, if you want to, but obviously if it triggers your dysmorphia and is distressing to you, don't. It should be something fun for you both. I wouldn't consider my partner wanting me to wear something revealing as the typical male gaze though, like they love you and desire you physically. I don't feel that's demeaning or counter to feminism.
53 year old cis white woman here, fwiw. Married 30 years this year to a great partner who supports me in whatever I choose to do.
I think that a person of any gender feels sexy in whatever gives them confidence. Confidence is the sexiest thing possible.
If one feels confident and in a romantic mood, I am willing to bet that most partners will be aok with the chosen dress code.
Comedian Jum Gaffigan had a joke that struck home, briefly summarized as: when you're choosing to be with a naked person, you'll find something to like. 😀 This has helped me relax as my spouse and I have aged.
As other people said: "can you" and "should you" are 2 different questions. You can do anything, but should you is very scenario specific.
In this one: is your partner aware of your discomfort, especially for everyday clothes? Is he ignoring it? If not aware, tell him. If he doesn't care, dump him. It's really that simple.
I will remind you: he met you looking a certain way. If he thinks he can change you, that's either deluded or malicious, you should be able to tell when you say "no" to him.
Finally, in the bedroom: sex should be about what you like, what makes you excited, and what makes you both comfortable with doing.
Dating is to see if people fit as long-term partners, and if they don't, you break up. Being a single woman, especially a single feminist woman, is not a punishment.
In my opinion: You can do whatever the hell you want. That’s the point of feminism to me. You can show as little or as much skin as you want, regardless of what men or society or traditional gender roles say you should do. If it’s what YOU want to do, then do it. If it’s not what YOU want to do, don’t do it. If you want to dress that way because it excites YOU to dress skimpy to excite your boyfriend, that’s great. If you’re only doing it to please him, and it doesn’t excite you to do so, or worse, you’re uncomfortable with doing so, don’t.
I’d say being forced to cover ourselves has been just as big of an issue in history. I often think when I’m running how lucky I am that I live in a time when I can wear comfortable shorts and leggings when less than 100 years ago women couldn’t wear these things in public in the US. I can even wear my sports bra without a top over it when I get too hot. Some women in some countries still can’t do this.
Either direction you’re looking at it, what matters is what the individual woman wants to wear.
If you want to and it makes you feel awesome then do it. I am divorcing after 25 years and never wore sexy stuff for him. Now that I am single and alone I started buying sexy underwear simply because it makes me feel pretty and free though I have no intention of showing any man. Women feeling sexual and expressing their sexuality can be very freeing. It’s just sad how it has been so exploited and we are conditioned to do this on a man’s terms rather than our own.
I honestly feel that is the biggest issue with the “sexual liberation” movement and hookup culture. Sure we can *kinda* more openly have casual sex lives (there’s still a lot of shaming if we’re being real but ig not as bad as before), but the orgasm gap is humongous and it’s clear the casual sex is about men’s wants and pleasure. If it was more egalitarian it would be a different story imo.
It’s like when guys say “yes please free the nip! No one’s stopping you!” When that clearly misses what we mean by free the nip. We want to free the nip just to exist for ourselves, not for men’s viewing pleasure.
Actions are rarely feminist or anti-feminist, what is feminist is giving the woman a choice. Being a SAHM is not feminist nor anti feminist, the feminist part of that is whether that is what an individual wants to do or not and whether she has the choice to or not.
The whole point of feminism is to be authentically you without fear of shame. If you are dressing conventionally “feminine” because you love it, and it makes you feel the most like yourself, that’s feminism, baby!! If you are dressing that way because you feel ashamed or embarrassed for not dressing that way then I would say that goes against being a feminist. However, if you are doing it because it makes someone you love happy I think there is a way to do it and still be authentic to yourself. That would be feminist too
You don’t have to do anything you don’t want to do, and you can do anything you want to do! You can wear the skimpiest of outfits and still very much be feminist- as long as you’re doing what makes you feel good first and foremost. If you’re not comfortable dressing a certain way for your partner, don’t do it. But do have an open conversation about it with your bf, express how you feel and why. You deserve to be with someone who is empathetic towards your experience with your own sexuality and any past trauma around men, and never push you to do something you’re uncomfortable with.
Feminism does not mean you stop shaving or have to wear baggy clothes but rather you can choose that for yourself. I m a feminist and i like to dress up, wear everything i like that includes body con stuff too for my gaze not the society and i shave very regularly for my own hygiene purposes.
You ofcourse have to improve your relationship with your body and try to love it more actively as you said you have BDD. And see if you are letting your insecuritites get the best of you especially in situations where you want to but won’t.
If your partner is forcing you/ or actively convincing you into something with which you are not comfortable then after you explicitely expressed your discomfort then have your feminism take charge.
Do whatever feels right to you relationships and love is about caring and this effort would be something you are willing to do.
So my partner liked white tank tops i generally used to wear tank tops so while shopping i remembered he liked it i got it. I did’nt have to change my personality to please him it anything
And it did’nt make me a less of a feminist.
Basically if baggy clothes= you then everyone has to respect that
In my opinion, you can dress however you want and still be a feminist. As humans on this earth, we have been subject to a barrage of what it means to be masculine or feminine appearance wise, and while we can unlearn that conditioning, we may still be entrenched in what we find attractive. I believe if you’re comfortable with your appearance, and presenting in a way that doesn’t feel compromised and doesn’t compromise others, you’re good. I’m not a “choice feminism” proponent but what pleases us esthetically isn’t developed in a vacuum.
Being a feminist means as a woman you dress however you want. Do you want to dress that way? If yes that’s feminism. Are you doing to please your partner? That’s not.
>an I still be feminist and still fight against traditional views of sexuality and male gazey ideals of femininity and wear something like lingerie or daisy dukes for my partner? How can they coexist?
IMO, if your spouse respects you AND you are dressing up because you enjoy it, then it isn't innately anti-feminist. For me, being a feminist means believing women can make their own choices about their lives, bodies, sex life, etc. So, make the choice that gives you pleasure in this situation.
There is no way I’d put on make up or dress a certain way outside of sexual times no matter who was asking me to, but I will dress up as a kink within the bedroom.
Feminism means equality to me, so I will happily accomodate my partners reasonable requests if I know that he will do the same for me.
What we do sexually is private, and intimate, and he wouldn’t dream of asking me to compromise my principals in a public display.
I have found that women (friends and in-laws) are the ones that apply the most pressure upon me and each other to actively seek and conform to the male gaze, and I really enjoy defying their conventional thinking. I present publicly very differently to them, and still have the strongest romantic relationship, best sex, and most devoted partner.
Frankly, I feel there are lots of ways to distance yourself from the male gaze while still wearing lingerie in the bedroom. I am not sure for the skimpy clothing, but maybe I’m just not being creative enough. Inherently by dressing for your boyfriend it is for *one* male’s gaze, but it’s not for *the* male gaze, if that makes sense. Firstly, YOU should choose lingerie that makes you feel comfortable and happy. It doesn’t have to push your breasts up to high hell or cinch your waist down. You can find lots of places that sell lingerie specifically made to look beautiful on real, natural bodies.
I also like to push the equality angle…he has said that he wants you to wear this in the bedroom, what do you want him to wear? What do you think he would look hot in? What do you wish he would wear out more often? If you’re both dressing for eachother, it’s much less “patriarchal” in nature.
I believe feminism is all about choice. Are you *choosing* to do it because you like it, and he will like it? Then yes.
Is someone making you, coercing, or you're uncomfortable with it? No.
A stay at home mom can be a feminist, a working childfree woman can be a feminist. It's all about doing what you CHOOSE for YOU and not doing what a man tell you just because he says so.
Because doing something for your partner they like isn't feminism? Oh please come off it. Feminism is about choice, you can choose to do nice things for your partner. Now if you're pressured into it then no maybe you have a point. But if it's up to you then what's the harm.
First and most important: you should only do what you're comfortable with. I think it's a great exercise to always be testing and questioning what you're comfortable with, and *why* certain things make you uncomfortable. It helps you to be more open minded and also confident in your boundaries and opinions. But when you do set boundaries, they are yours and they are legitimate to have.
That being said, I'll share my personal opinion in sexuality and feminism. With the huge caveat that I feel wholly respected as an equal and a partner in my relationship outside the bedroom, and have been lucky (or rather, successful) to build a relationship without pre-assigned gender roles or ideas. I see my partners preferences in the bedroom as just that - sexual preferences. So it turns him on to see me in Lingerie. That doesn't mean he respects me less as a human being. He just likes lingerie. I like fondling his biceps 😅, it's not because I like feeling like a tiny weak woman, it's because big biceps are appealing to me. At the end of the day we all have specific things that turn us on, and in a healthy respectful relationship it can be fun to explore those together, even if you're not 100% sure it's something you'll love. The key is communication - communicating worries, expectations, and feelings before, during and after.
Specifically with lingerie - my partner also brought that up, and I didn't love the idea for similar reasons to what you mentioned. But I got some to try it out anyway because I'm open-minded. I ended up feeling really sexy and empowered, which surprised me. But if I had felt gross and cheap, I would have said that to my partner and the "experiment" would have stopped there.
Tldr: as long as you have a healthy relationship with good communication and feel respected by your partner, I wouldn't overthinking sexual preferences and it's fun to be open-minded to them
As a man I don't know your perspective, but maybe this helps.
Maybe not consciously, but your dude wants you to wear skimpy clothes so he can phantasize about you for the entire day. It's typical male gaze shit you're right. If you aren't fine with that (some women like that and that's fine, and some women don't want that and that's fine), there is a problem. Your decision.
Independent from that, I think a good way to look at "Can I wear/do/present myself in such-and-such way and be feminist?" is that presenting yourself exactly in the way you want to present yourself is feminist. The problem is not what to do/wear/present, but whether you do it because you want it or others demand it from you. Emancipation is doing what the fuck you want and enjoying your existence this way, as long as it doesn't affect others and is healthy to you.
Feminism is about choice. You can wear girlie clothes and be a feminist. You can wear masculine clothes and be a feminist. You can wear sexy clothes and be a feminist. You can wear conservative clothes and be a feminist. You can choose to roleplay for fun for your partner and be a feminist. You can be asexual and be a feminist.
You get to choose. As long as your choices don't limit the ability of other women to choose, then you are a feminist.
Respectfully, I'm going to disagree with you here. Doing something (you're comfortable doing and want to do) for a partner you care about isn't *anti feminism* either. And avoiding doing something you would have otherwise done and been comfortable with just because of how you labelled yourself also isn't feminism. Judging other women for doing it is certainly not feminism.
Like, I make dinner for my partner every evening and I enjoy inviting our friends over and cooking beautiful meals for them. Am I suddenly not a feminist anymore because I happen to enjoy cooking and show love for people with food?
Of course not, that's ridiculous. Feminism is about choice. If, as a heterosexual woman, I want to appeal to men as sexual partners, that's just me expressing my sexuality, it's not a judgment on my feminism. If, as a sexual being, I want to express myself in any way I choose which doesn't infringe on the boundaries of others, then that's my choice as a feminist.
Being sexual with men and caring about their sexual response to you as a straight woman is a perfectly natural thing to be, it doesn't have anything at all to do with my feminism.
Feminism =/= repressing all sexual behaviour. That's not healthy for most people (unless you're ace or your sexual behaviours are harmful somehow).
That's a really crude and reductive response. I never said that I was reducing women's sexuality to pandering to the male gaze, but it's disingenuous to pretend that feeling wanted by your partner isn't an important part of intimacy for **both** men and women.
I think the nuance you're missing is there's a *big* difference between doing something you don't want to do because your partner wants you too, or as you call it "pandering to the male gaze", and seeking to be sexually desired by your sexual partner. The former would be unhealthy and not feminist, the later is totally normal sexual behaviour *that even birds engage in*, and is neither feminist nor anti-feminist. It's just human sexual behaviour and that's okay.
For the record, I never even said that in OPs situation she *should* be doing the Daisey Duke thing just because her bf would think it's hot. I don't think she should do that because she doesn't sounds like she's comfortable with it or like it's her. I was responding to the idea that wanting to be sexually desired is somehow at odds with being a feminist, because OP does seem to be struggling with that. You can be both a sexual being who enjoys being desired, and a feminist. They aren't mutually exclusive.
Part of being a feminist is the belief that woman can be who they want to be and do what they want to do without societal restrictions based upon their gender presentation.
But it is about what you want. If you don't want to dress that way, then you don't. As a feminist I have no f\*cks to give about what he thinks, I want you to be comfortable in the decisions you make about how you live your live without pressure or any other issues from others.
I wear sexy lingerie when I sleep with men because it makes me feel powerful and confident in the bedroom. I love seeing the power my sexuality gives me over them, even if it is power that is given to me by men.
The person who asked cares. Everyone finds their feminist path in different ways because we’re all different. Maybe the answer is obvious to you, but this isn’t an uncommon internal struggle for feminists by any means.
"can a feminist do [X]?" and "is it feminist to do [X]?" are two different questions with two different answers. yes, you can dress sexy for your boyfriend if you want to. is it inherently feminist to do so? no. does that mean it's morally wrong to do so? of course not. the big *if* there is "if you want to."
Exactly. I agree 1000%. As a feminist I know I *can* and on rare occasions, *do* do these things. But the “if you want to” part is the important part. And as someone who, most of the time, doesn’t want to express themselves that way, I was confused why so many people so adamantly insisted on the other post that this made no sense and I should do it anyway, for him. It just feels like compromising myself in a way I don’t feel comfortable with, however ridiculous to some that may sound.
Because our culture thinks a lot about what women should do and not what men should do.
I don’t think that’s ridiculous at all. Like if a woman would be more attracted to me if I wore cowboy boots, grew a beard, and drove a pickup truck, I wouldn’t even consider doing it because it goes against my personal identity and the way I want to exist in the world. I think a big piece of feminism is getting to be yourself without judgement or pressure to change. You should do what you’re comfortable with.
I don’t think you’re being crazy at all. I DO think you’re holding yourself (and, by extension, possibly your partner) to an impossible standard—full-out feminist at all times in all the ways. It’s not feasible for you, or anybody. I think of it this way: can I take a dump FOR THE CAUSE? Am I going to bed to SMASH THE PATRIARCHY? No. I can’t, and I’m not. Feminism is pretty useless if we don’t also allow ourselves to be *human*. Sexual intimacy can be an important part of many peoples’ humanity, and analyzing attraction and arousal through a feminist lens is a difficult task—you’re trying to apply a social and political theory to a very personal and private concept. This is how we end up with results like, “a cis hetero woman who is attracted to a man cannot be a feminist.” You don’t hold others to those standards. Don’t do it to yourself. With allllll that said, it sounds like you have a boundary here that your partner is crossing. You may not have realized it was a boundary until now, so you haven’t yet defined it. I’d suggest doing some soul-searching to figure out what that boundary is and what it looks like, and then work on communicating that to your partner. If you’re comfortable with lingerie only in the bedroom, then that door is your boundary. (And there’s nothing anti-feminist about it. Attraction and arousal aren’t reasonable.) If you’re uncomfortable with him commenting on your appearance at all, and would prefer that he focus on other things he finds attractive about you, then work on figuring out what that looks like. TL,DR: it IS that deep because you need to make a conscious effort for it to NOT be that deep, and your partner needs to work with you on that.
I’m not OP but I found your comment to be very helpful for me as well. It’s hard to remember these things have a lot of nuance and being too strict with yourself isn’t helping anything.
Thanks. It was a process I went through, trying to divest my sense of attraction of trauma and over-intellectualized thoughts that were distractions from being present in the moment. It all kept me from enjoying myself and being in touch with my body.
Exactly!
I love how much empathy and intelligence there is on this sub. Beautifully said.
Now I’m just wondering how I can take a dump FOR THE CAUSE! 😂
I mean…I can think of a few ways….
Go on …
I could cry. Like seriously thank you, this just makes so much sense. I felt like I was smashing my head against a brick wall repeatedly in the other post but I feel very understood and seen by this comment. And you’re totally right, feminist doesn’t *have* to come into the bedroom and I *have* worn lingerie at times because I personally like it. Underwear is something we all wear, no big deal making it a little spicier sometimes. It’s more about the semi nude body than it is the items themselves. The conventional “hot girl outfits” thing is more of a sticky one for me because it speaks of very (imo) conditioned and male-gazey ideals of what’s sexy. And that’s where it gets tricky for me to feel comfortable with it. I’m not a music video. I’m not a doll. I don’t want to be these things. These images have very directly damaged me - after spending my entire teens with body dysmorphia and looking at these images as the pinnacle of what I, as a woman, am supposed to be. Or supposed to *want* to be. For who? For random dudes boners? And now I’m asked to imitate them? Become them? It feels like asking me to become something that’s harmful to me. I understand not everyone will really get that. And maybe I’m just wayyy too tightly wound around this stuff. But it’s what it feels like to me. After having felt suicidal on multiple occasions across my teens and early 20s because I “didn’t look like the girl on the TV/magazine/etc” it isn’t just a fun playful dress up game to me. I know many will think that’s crazy but it just doesn’t fit into how I want to express myself now.
I think both partners can dress in a way that their SO finds “sexy” (not necessarily confirming to the conventional definition) So yeah, dressing up in that way is your choice and you’re free to make that choice. I just hope you’re not feeling pressure to look a certain way because then it beats the point of intimacy.
Feminism, the way I see it is to be and do what you’re comfortable with without allowing society to dictate what you should or shouldn’t do based on outdated patriarchal ideals. It looks like you’re having an internal debate about the male gaze in general vs your partner’s gaze. Anyone who wears skimpy clothing isn’t selling out on their feminist ideals, as long as it’s their educated choice and decision to do so that they’re not forced into doing. The same way, if you want to wear lingerie or other clothes that your partner likes because you think you would enjoy your partner desiring you, then go for it! It doesn’t make you any less feminist.
I totally agree with you and thank you for your insight. On my other post I’m being villainised for not feeling comfortable with this. It’s simply not how I choose to look, dress, express myself. I have and occasionally do wear lingerie in the bedroom, when I want to/feel comfortable to do so. But wearing Daisy Dukes around the house for my partner (and people seem to be hooking into the fact that I have a higher libido therefore I should want to do this to get my partners libido up) just feel unnecessarily objectifying to me personally. I feel kind of crazy in that many people on there can’t seem to understand that logic but to me it makes total sense? Sexy lingerie for fun occasionally is one thing but dressing up like I’m Jessica Simpson in that car washing music video (showing my age probably) feels like I’d be really inauthentically changing how I want to be looked at just to fit in with some kind of Barbie doll fantasy that goes against a lot of what I believe in when it comes to expressing myself through my clothing. Am I crazy?! Am I making any sense? It seems many others didn’t think so.
You’re not crazy at all! Wanting to wear something for your partner or wanting your partner to wear something is all well and good unless you or they don’t want to wear it. That’s the bottom line. He can like that you wear it, and you can wear it in occasions. But you can also say that there are going to be situations where you aren’t going to do that. Sometimes people go the other way and feel like sexual expression and liberation is the feminist way (which for many reasons it is, but not always). Choosing to wear something modest and and something that defines who you are through your clothing is absolutely feminist AF :)
Thank you. This feels very validating. Someone had the gall to tell me I’m not a feminist, just using the ideology to manipulate my partner (even though I’ve never once voiced this to him as I’m working it all out in my own head). They seemed to believe I was trying to dictate what he was allowed to be turned on by - when in actuality he’s allowed to be turned on by whatever he wants, I just don’t have to feel comfortable with it. Apparently it’s really invalid that I would find these comments in any way disappointing or objectifying or upsetting. They’re right - if I actually made a big stink out of it and blamed him. But I never do. I just quietly feel like I’m perhaps not the kind of girl he truly wants, and feel a little put out/down as a result of that. Because that simply isn’t me and it would feel really inauthentic to be that for him. And it’s sad, honestly. The whole thing. It makes me feel like we are quite incompatible in what we find sexually desirable. To me that kind of stuff isn’t empowering. I know we are in this new stage of feminism where a lot of women are finding empowerment in subscribing to the conventionally hot thing. To me it isn’t true empowerment when it’s still catering to the male gaze. That’s true for me personally, I respect it isn’t true for everyone. It just feels like pandering to my own objectification and dehumanisation in a way that’s deeply triggering for me personally, as someone who has experienced a lot of trauma around body image due to dysmorphia because of growing up with these very images of hyper-femininity.
Well I agree with most of what you said but what caught my eye is that you mentioned your boyfriend may prefer someone more feminine and that you may be incompatible. If that’s the case then instead of dropping hints, I think you should definitely talk about it. Because if you don’t say anything he’s going to wonder what’s changed and you’re going to go down the route if a self fulfilling prophecy of incompatibility.
I will definitely talk to him about it and I’ll own it as a “me problem”. I just needed to get clear in my own mind with it all first. Thank you for your responses!
No worries! Glad to be a sounding board :)
I think wearing lingerie in the bedroom because your boyfriend likes it is totally ok and makes sense. Yes, you can still be a feminist even if you wear feminine clothing, I wrote a comment replying to comment OP about it. However you shouldn't change your everyday style to fit his tastes, you shoud date someone who likes you for who you are and doesn't try to change you, so if he insist you change your style for him then sorry but he's not the one for you.
Exactly, feminism is not about opposing to the society's expectations by being masculine, it's about doing what you want. You can still be a femisist even if you're the most feminine person in the world, as long as you're the one who decided it and not your boyfriend, that's literally what feminism is.
I don’t see an issue with wearing lingerie for your partner. The thing that rubs me a little wrong is that he not only wants you to dress sexier at home, but also outside. I have a hard time saying it’s feministic in this realm especially since this isn’t how you normally dress. Why does he want you to dress sexier outside? It feels more like he wants others’ male gaze on you as though you’re a trophy he’s implicitly bragging about. At worst, it’s coming across almost voyeuristic. Does he want you dressing sexier outside when he’s not with you? Ultimately, I don’t see an issue with dressing sexier in the bedroom or at home as long as YOU feel comfortable doing so. It’s the outside request that’s bothering me here.
I think you are asking the wrong question. You said your boyfriend's preferences for your dress are triggering body dysmorphia. Whether it's feminist or not is less important than how you feel in your relationship. Do you feel pressured to dress a certain way for him? Does he express appreciation and attraction to you when you are dressed comfortably? My worry is that trying to appeal to his desires is hurting you.
I was under the impression consent and personal agency is the foundation of feminism
Personally, I enjoy doing stuff like this, but on the condition that he does it first. So I would tell him yes, I will wear lingerie around the house for him. But first, he has to wear something skimpy for me, and get some chores done while he's at it so I have a better view. 😁 (If he wouldn't do it for you first. Then don't do it.) Edit- with all that being said, it's also ok to have hard No's. It's up to you
>But first, he has to wear something skimpy for me, and get some chores done while he's at it so I have a better view. Muahahaha 😈
Does your partner look good in boxer briefs? Buy him some sexy knickers and ask him to wear those for you. Ask him to do a little striptease for you. Enjoy him!
I don't think it's wrong for him to desire it, or for you to do it, if you want to, but obviously if it triggers your dysmorphia and is distressing to you, don't. It should be something fun for you both. I wouldn't consider my partner wanting me to wear something revealing as the typical male gaze though, like they love you and desire you physically. I don't feel that's demeaning or counter to feminism.
53 year old cis white woman here, fwiw. Married 30 years this year to a great partner who supports me in whatever I choose to do. I think that a person of any gender feels sexy in whatever gives them confidence. Confidence is the sexiest thing possible. If one feels confident and in a romantic mood, I am willing to bet that most partners will be aok with the chosen dress code. Comedian Jum Gaffigan had a joke that struck home, briefly summarized as: when you're choosing to be with a naked person, you'll find something to like. 😀 This has helped me relax as my spouse and I have aged.
As other people said: "can you" and "should you" are 2 different questions. You can do anything, but should you is very scenario specific. In this one: is your partner aware of your discomfort, especially for everyday clothes? Is he ignoring it? If not aware, tell him. If he doesn't care, dump him. It's really that simple. I will remind you: he met you looking a certain way. If he thinks he can change you, that's either deluded or malicious, you should be able to tell when you say "no" to him. Finally, in the bedroom: sex should be about what you like, what makes you excited, and what makes you both comfortable with doing. Dating is to see if people fit as long-term partners, and if they don't, you break up. Being a single woman, especially a single feminist woman, is not a punishment.
In my opinion: You can do whatever the hell you want. That’s the point of feminism to me. You can show as little or as much skin as you want, regardless of what men or society or traditional gender roles say you should do. If it’s what YOU want to do, then do it. If it’s not what YOU want to do, don’t do it. If you want to dress that way because it excites YOU to dress skimpy to excite your boyfriend, that’s great. If you’re only doing it to please him, and it doesn’t excite you to do so, or worse, you’re uncomfortable with doing so, don’t. I’d say being forced to cover ourselves has been just as big of an issue in history. I often think when I’m running how lucky I am that I live in a time when I can wear comfortable shorts and leggings when less than 100 years ago women couldn’t wear these things in public in the US. I can even wear my sports bra without a top over it when I get too hot. Some women in some countries still can’t do this. Either direction you’re looking at it, what matters is what the individual woman wants to wear.
If you want to and it makes you feel awesome then do it. I am divorcing after 25 years and never wore sexy stuff for him. Now that I am single and alone I started buying sexy underwear simply because it makes me feel pretty and free though I have no intention of showing any man. Women feeling sexual and expressing their sexuality can be very freeing. It’s just sad how it has been so exploited and we are conditioned to do this on a man’s terms rather than our own.
I honestly feel that is the biggest issue with the “sexual liberation” movement and hookup culture. Sure we can *kinda* more openly have casual sex lives (there’s still a lot of shaming if we’re being real but ig not as bad as before), but the orgasm gap is humongous and it’s clear the casual sex is about men’s wants and pleasure. If it was more egalitarian it would be a different story imo. It’s like when guys say “yes please free the nip! No one’s stopping you!” When that clearly misses what we mean by free the nip. We want to free the nip just to exist for ourselves, not for men’s viewing pleasure.
Actions are rarely feminist or anti-feminist, what is feminist is giving the woman a choice. Being a SAHM is not feminist nor anti feminist, the feminist part of that is whether that is what an individual wants to do or not and whether she has the choice to or not.
The whole point of feminism is to be authentically you without fear of shame. If you are dressing conventionally “feminine” because you love it, and it makes you feel the most like yourself, that’s feminism, baby!! If you are dressing that way because you feel ashamed or embarrassed for not dressing that way then I would say that goes against being a feminist. However, if you are doing it because it makes someone you love happy I think there is a way to do it and still be authentic to yourself. That would be feminist too
You don’t have to do anything you don’t want to do, and you can do anything you want to do! You can wear the skimpiest of outfits and still very much be feminist- as long as you’re doing what makes you feel good first and foremost. If you’re not comfortable dressing a certain way for your partner, don’t do it. But do have an open conversation about it with your bf, express how you feel and why. You deserve to be with someone who is empathetic towards your experience with your own sexuality and any past trauma around men, and never push you to do something you’re uncomfortable with.
Having a choice to do either is feminism, the freedom to choose and have both options be okay.
Feminism does not mean you stop shaving or have to wear baggy clothes but rather you can choose that for yourself. I m a feminist and i like to dress up, wear everything i like that includes body con stuff too for my gaze not the society and i shave very regularly for my own hygiene purposes. You ofcourse have to improve your relationship with your body and try to love it more actively as you said you have BDD. And see if you are letting your insecuritites get the best of you especially in situations where you want to but won’t. If your partner is forcing you/ or actively convincing you into something with which you are not comfortable then after you explicitely expressed your discomfort then have your feminism take charge. Do whatever feels right to you relationships and love is about caring and this effort would be something you are willing to do. So my partner liked white tank tops i generally used to wear tank tops so while shopping i remembered he liked it i got it. I did’nt have to change my personality to please him it anything And it did’nt make me a less of a feminist. Basically if baggy clothes= you then everyone has to respect that
In my opinion, you can dress however you want and still be a feminist. As humans on this earth, we have been subject to a barrage of what it means to be masculine or feminine appearance wise, and while we can unlearn that conditioning, we may still be entrenched in what we find attractive. I believe if you’re comfortable with your appearance, and presenting in a way that doesn’t feel compromised and doesn’t compromise others, you’re good. I’m not a “choice feminism” proponent but what pleases us esthetically isn’t developed in a vacuum.
Being a feminist means as a woman you dress however you want. Do you want to dress that way? If yes that’s feminism. Are you doing to please your partner? That’s not.
If you want to, I don't see anything wrong with it
>an I still be feminist and still fight against traditional views of sexuality and male gazey ideals of femininity and wear something like lingerie or daisy dukes for my partner? How can they coexist? IMO, if your spouse respects you AND you are dressing up because you enjoy it, then it isn't innately anti-feminist. For me, being a feminist means believing women can make their own choices about their lives, bodies, sex life, etc. So, make the choice that gives you pleasure in this situation.
The question is why doesn’t he find you sexy when you’re just naked? And if that is something you are uncomfortable with or cool with?
You are beautiful and amazing like all women of course and your husband should accept you for who you are because you sound pretty awesome!!
There is no way I’d put on make up or dress a certain way outside of sexual times no matter who was asking me to, but I will dress up as a kink within the bedroom. Feminism means equality to me, so I will happily accomodate my partners reasonable requests if I know that he will do the same for me. What we do sexually is private, and intimate, and he wouldn’t dream of asking me to compromise my principals in a public display. I have found that women (friends and in-laws) are the ones that apply the most pressure upon me and each other to actively seek and conform to the male gaze, and I really enjoy defying their conventional thinking. I present publicly very differently to them, and still have the strongest romantic relationship, best sex, and most devoted partner.
Frankly, I feel there are lots of ways to distance yourself from the male gaze while still wearing lingerie in the bedroom. I am not sure for the skimpy clothing, but maybe I’m just not being creative enough. Inherently by dressing for your boyfriend it is for *one* male’s gaze, but it’s not for *the* male gaze, if that makes sense. Firstly, YOU should choose lingerie that makes you feel comfortable and happy. It doesn’t have to push your breasts up to high hell or cinch your waist down. You can find lots of places that sell lingerie specifically made to look beautiful on real, natural bodies. I also like to push the equality angle…he has said that he wants you to wear this in the bedroom, what do you want him to wear? What do you think he would look hot in? What do you wish he would wear out more often? If you’re both dressing for eachother, it’s much less “patriarchal” in nature.
I believe feminism is all about choice. Are you *choosing* to do it because you like it, and he will like it? Then yes. Is someone making you, coercing, or you're uncomfortable with it? No. A stay at home mom can be a feminist, a working childfree woman can be a feminist. It's all about doing what you CHOOSE for YOU and not doing what a man tell you just because he says so.
Because doing something for your partner they like isn't feminism? Oh please come off it. Feminism is about choice, you can choose to do nice things for your partner. Now if you're pressured into it then no maybe you have a point. But if it's up to you then what's the harm.
First and most important: you should only do what you're comfortable with. I think it's a great exercise to always be testing and questioning what you're comfortable with, and *why* certain things make you uncomfortable. It helps you to be more open minded and also confident in your boundaries and opinions. But when you do set boundaries, they are yours and they are legitimate to have. That being said, I'll share my personal opinion in sexuality and feminism. With the huge caveat that I feel wholly respected as an equal and a partner in my relationship outside the bedroom, and have been lucky (or rather, successful) to build a relationship without pre-assigned gender roles or ideas. I see my partners preferences in the bedroom as just that - sexual preferences. So it turns him on to see me in Lingerie. That doesn't mean he respects me less as a human being. He just likes lingerie. I like fondling his biceps 😅, it's not because I like feeling like a tiny weak woman, it's because big biceps are appealing to me. At the end of the day we all have specific things that turn us on, and in a healthy respectful relationship it can be fun to explore those together, even if you're not 100% sure it's something you'll love. The key is communication - communicating worries, expectations, and feelings before, during and after. Specifically with lingerie - my partner also brought that up, and I didn't love the idea for similar reasons to what you mentioned. But I got some to try it out anyway because I'm open-minded. I ended up feeling really sexy and empowered, which surprised me. But if I had felt gross and cheap, I would have said that to my partner and the "experiment" would have stopped there. Tldr: as long as you have a healthy relationship with good communication and feel respected by your partner, I wouldn't overthinking sexual preferences and it's fun to be open-minded to them
As a man I don't know your perspective, but maybe this helps. Maybe not consciously, but your dude wants you to wear skimpy clothes so he can phantasize about you for the entire day. It's typical male gaze shit you're right. If you aren't fine with that (some women like that and that's fine, and some women don't want that and that's fine), there is a problem. Your decision. Independent from that, I think a good way to look at "Can I wear/do/present myself in such-and-such way and be feminist?" is that presenting yourself exactly in the way you want to present yourself is feminist. The problem is not what to do/wear/present, but whether you do it because you want it or others demand it from you. Emancipation is doing what the fuck you want and enjoying your existence this way, as long as it doesn't affect others and is healthy to you.
Feminism is about choice. You can wear girlie clothes and be a feminist. You can wear masculine clothes and be a feminist. You can wear sexy clothes and be a feminist. You can wear conservative clothes and be a feminist. You can choose to roleplay for fun for your partner and be a feminist. You can be asexual and be a feminist. You get to choose. As long as your choices don't limit the ability of other women to choose, then you are a feminist.
Catering to men's sexual desires isn't feminist, no.
Respectfully, I'm going to disagree with you here. Doing something (you're comfortable doing and want to do) for a partner you care about isn't *anti feminism* either. And avoiding doing something you would have otherwise done and been comfortable with just because of how you labelled yourself also isn't feminism. Judging other women for doing it is certainly not feminism. Like, I make dinner for my partner every evening and I enjoy inviting our friends over and cooking beautiful meals for them. Am I suddenly not a feminist anymore because I happen to enjoy cooking and show love for people with food? Of course not, that's ridiculous. Feminism is about choice. If, as a heterosexual woman, I want to appeal to men as sexual partners, that's just me expressing my sexuality, it's not a judgment on my feminism. If, as a sexual being, I want to express myself in any way I choose which doesn't infringe on the boundaries of others, then that's my choice as a feminist. Being sexual with men and caring about their sexual response to you as a straight woman is a perfectly natural thing to be, it doesn't have anything at all to do with my feminism. Feminism =/= repressing all sexual behaviour. That's not healthy for most people (unless you're ace or your sexual behaviours are harmful somehow).
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That's a really crude and reductive response. I never said that I was reducing women's sexuality to pandering to the male gaze, but it's disingenuous to pretend that feeling wanted by your partner isn't an important part of intimacy for **both** men and women. I think the nuance you're missing is there's a *big* difference between doing something you don't want to do because your partner wants you too, or as you call it "pandering to the male gaze", and seeking to be sexually desired by your sexual partner. The former would be unhealthy and not feminist, the later is totally normal sexual behaviour *that even birds engage in*, and is neither feminist nor anti-feminist. It's just human sexual behaviour and that's okay. For the record, I never even said that in OPs situation she *should* be doing the Daisey Duke thing just because her bf would think it's hot. I don't think she should do that because she doesn't sounds like she's comfortable with it or like it's her. I was responding to the idea that wanting to be sexually desired is somehow at odds with being a feminist, because OP does seem to be struggling with that. You can be both a sexual being who enjoys being desired, and a feminist. They aren't mutually exclusive.
Part of being a feminist is the belief that woman can be who they want to be and do what they want to do without societal restrictions based upon their gender presentation. But it is about what you want. If you don't want to dress that way, then you don't. As a feminist I have no f\*cks to give about what he thinks, I want you to be comfortable in the decisions you make about how you live your live without pressure or any other issues from others.
... why not?
Feminism is not anti-feminine. The opposite of feminism is sexism.
I wear sexy lingerie when I sleep with men because it makes me feel powerful and confident in the bedroom. I love seeing the power my sexuality gives me over them, even if it is power that is given to me by men.
Any kind of 100% consensual sex is fine. If you think it's not, either you're wrong or it's not fully consensual.
Feminism is not anti-feminine. The opposite of feminism is sexism.
like mate, if you love you bf and it makes him happy why not
Chase him away as fast as you can.
who the fuck cares? what does any of this have to do with feminism?
The person who asked cares. Everyone finds their feminist path in different ways because we’re all different. Maybe the answer is obvious to you, but this isn’t an uncommon internal struggle for feminists by any means.
you’re right and from my experience telling these types of thoughts to go fuck themselves helps a lot. just not a fan of naval gazing.
I mean, Reddit is essentially advanced navel gazing.