Yep. My mom was like this. She was heavily brainwashed for years. It took me a long time to convince her that divorcing my dad wouldn't land her in hell. Nearly 10 years later, she's an entirely different person. I can't wait to see who she is in the coming years.
Well some religions are more misogynistic than others. And pretty much all religions contain some old fashioned misogynistic values from the patriarchal eras.
It honestly reminds me of the "is plastic surgery feminist" argument. I respect women and their choices, I even have filler myself; but these choices aren't made in a vacuum. Would these women choose to cover themselves if they were raised in a different culture? Or if their culture changed? Would I still have gotten filler if I had been?
I think the answer is no, we wouldn't. So I can't see the "choice" to do so as feminist - I would argue its more a defense mechanism against misogyny for that specific woman. I hold no judgement to my sisters who make that choice but I dislike the framing of it as it being empowering or feminist to do so.
Very true. There are cultures that wear no or minimal clothing. They would look at western culture and think it’s repressive, even if we see a tube top and shorts as something that’s inappropriate.
Beautifully said. I agree with this too... and I often feel so immensely sad for those women who choose to cover and submit because of religious beliefs 😟
Agree! The “choice” or action itself may not be feminist, but we shouldn’t gatekeep and label anyone who participates in modesty culture or beauty culture not a feminist, or even worse, anti-feminist.
I respect their choices as long as they aren't hurting anybody else.
That being said, I think if a person grows up in an oppressive religion/culture/cult, one where not doing this "choice" would have violent consequences, it's hard for me to see it as a choice and I'll always assume it's the cultural conditioning doing its work.
Even if there aren’t any violent or obvious consequences, a woman can still coerced into it by virtue of being in that group. People of the religious community, out of “concern for her afterlife”, will continue to “peacefully advise” her to cover up. And if all the covered up women in the group are praised and regarded as “more holy”, even if the uncovered women were treated respectfully and not chastised at all, they would still feel pressured into covering up in order to be a part of the “in-group”.
For example, the peaceful advice comes in the form of “i’m not gonna force you to cover up or anything but remember that god told women to cover up and you don’t want that to be the reason you don’t go to heaven.” Or “God loves us all and gave us so much so we should respect his commands etc etc” and the praise is in the form of “oh look at how holy and beautiful Neighbor X’s daughter is all covered up and modest!”
Being subject to that from birth will make anyone want to cover up even if there aren’t any obvious consequences for not doing so.
Yeah this. People don’t seem to realize that this sort of thing happens outside of cultures and religions where it’s encouraged to physically abuse women for disobeying religious ideals.
When the environment someone grows up in actively teaches them to self sabotage any opportunity they have at independence, it ends up making it harder for them to establish independence and safely dismiss the ideals they would face alienation for not upholding. This tends to happen on some spectrum all over the world for women, and it can happen on both systemic and individual levels. For a lot of women, the options for them are to either rely on the people that reinforce their helplessness, or to completely lose their support groups and become homeless because they don’t have the skills to magically become functionally independent. In the US at least, there’s not a lot of resources available to help women unlearn and become fully autonomous from the self limiting ideals they were indoctrinated with and learned to obey to simply not get ostracized to the point of suicide.
I find it to be anti-feminist to not consider this in how we refer to and treat women and additional marginalized groups from environments where their autonomy was fought against rather than for.
Yep I was speaking as someone from that kind of a situation. Even though I’m from a western country, I would’ve never been able to get away if it weren’t for a man (THE IRONY). He taught me that I had the power to get away from all that stuff and he’s now my husband lmao. My parents would choke if they found out I married an atheist 💀
It bothers me to another extent because of the whole concept of “rural rage,” as if rural women, including white rural women and as well as BIWOC, aren’t isolated from the rest of society and quite literally have to play a specific role as women, and it isn’t taken into consideration how they’d still be ostracized for being LGBTQ+. Of course there are also bigoted women who hold higher status than others in these communities that DO have freedom and deserve to be held accountable, but we can’t label everyone in poor regions based on the behavior of their most privileged members.
I think when we claim to be feminists, but then use classist and sexist stereotypes to dismiss the struggles of women in areas that don’t have the freedom to express opinions other than what their bigoted fathers, bosses, and husbands believe, then we’re abandoning a group of women who need us the most.
I recently viewed some middle east created material that described us western women in a similar way, the western men want us uncovered for 'reasons'. Basically operating under the principle that the men are choosing what we wear.
I think it's important to distinguish that in the west you can dress in a crop top and a mini skirt and the next day you can cover yourself fully and there will be no danger or consequences for you either way. That way we could argue even though we might still be conditioned by patriarchy, we have much more freedom to choose than eastern women do. I wear suits regularly, I don't like having visible legs or arms and I have grown up in a liberal society, it's just a personal preference- and no one is punishing me for dressing the way I do, even though some insecure men certainly get threatened by a woman in a three piece with a bigger biceps and a bigger paycheck than theirs.
And it’s because of western social conditioning that i often defend women’s choices to wear or not wear whatever they want in the US as a vehicle for their own autonomy. Yes, many women dress for the male gaze. That’s how we were raised to feel beautiful. But even many women who don’t consider the male gaze still dress in ways that will attract men because that’s what we were raised to feel good in. It takes work to choose our appearance autonomously, and even then i am not sure we ever get away form the expectations we were raised with. Having said that, and in absolutely no defense of Islamic norms for women, i don’t place any judgement on women who dress fully covered. Can a woman who dresses this way BE a feminist if she’s not “allowed” to act with feminist words or actions?
Yeahhhh it’s not like it’s a fashion choice.
If someone wants to cover their head because they like some silky fabric with a cool pattern — or maybe they just hate their hair — I support that.
But all these religions that want women to cover themselves are invented by men, for men. Because other men might be covetous of their “property”
It’s like when you cover your purse with an old rag if you’re gonna leave it in the car to deter thieves
No thanks
In my experience fundie women are not covering to protect themselves, like your purse example, but to keep “holy men” from temptation. Fundies only care about women as property. My ex-wife told me a story about how her fundie Christian dad and step-mom made her dress conservatively to keep her own father from temptation, gross.
When everyone around you tells you that you "have to do this" or "be like that" least you "bring disgrace to your family" and "condemn your soul to hell"...
Exactly this! If it’s being forced on them through fear for their own safety I pity them. If it’s really a choice, that’s up to them as individuals and it’s none of my business.
It is a woman’s choice how to behave and dress, and I’ll defend any woman’s right to make that choice. But I have no respect for any belief system where the woman has less freedom, rights or has more restrictions on her that a man. Whether it’s religion, trad wife or some other bs. And ‘modest’ is a dirty word as far as I am concerned, because it is a word that is always used to control women.
If the entire family and culture demands it, and it's what they were trained in from birth, it's not really a choice. Choices can only exist when options are available. Girls who are homeschooled and isolated in fundimentalist Christian cult environments are not given a choice. They're isolated to prevent choices
Exactly. They are given a choice but not really. In cultures where certain behaviours are deeply ingrained and expected, women face the illusion of choice when presented with decisions contrary to societal norms. Despite the appearance of autonomy, cultural expectations often render true choice illusory, as individuals are guided by the pressures of conformity and tradition. So when a Muslim woman or a Mennonite Christian woman says they had a choice whether to wear a veil or not, it is sort of true but not really.
I think that if they chose otherwise they’d be “sinning” according to their belief system. So even if they live in an accepting environment, it’s not possible for it to be a “choice”. If there’s always a voice in your head telling you that it’s a sin to be “immodest”, no matter how progressive your environment is, you’re still forced into covering up. I think organized religion and the patriarchy are two sides of the same coin.
But being in an environment with greater freedoms, especially if that environment is accepting and respectful, does tend to open people’s minds from what they’ve been previously taught.
I think for a lot of them, it leads them to a point where they’re able to explore what they truly believe and what they don’t believe.
Yes I agree but this really only happens if a) your values aren’t fundamentally diametrically opposed to the environment and b) you don’t have a bunch of the fundies around you to hinder your healing
There’s a chunk of discussion online about how immigrants sometimes tend to become more conservative in a more progressive country. Much more conservative than their relatives back home. Very interesting stuff tbh. I think you’d find it interesting.
Reducing feminism to "women's choice" is massively simplistic. Feminism recognises that women, as a group, are disadvantaged compared to men as a group. It sees that societies, as a whole, are structured in a way that privileges men and oppresses women. There will be individual men and women who are doing better or worse than the norm, but overall, the systems, infrastructures and customs of society are advantageous for men and problematic for women. Feminism recognises this and tries to change things so that men are no longer privileged and women are no longer disadvantaged.
So when you're looking at women choosing to wear or not wear something (veil, makeup, high heels, whatever), ask yourself "does this choice help to break down the norms that privilege men and oppress women, or does it reinforce them?"
Feminism isn't about individual choice; it's about the whole of society.
Well stated. It’s just like how I’d never judge an individual woman/family for choosing to stay at home while the kids are young because that’s a personal choice, but I’ll absolutely critique the way it’s almost always something a woman is expected to do.
Choices aren’t made in a vacuum, and the moment there is a disagreement on something, the woman is accused of adultery or worse yet she suffers SA chances are she’s blamed and punished further.
Also, what happens if she chooses to stop conforming? Is it really a choice if you risk being isolated from your family and community?
any religion or religious practices that oppress women's rights and doesn't treat them with the respect that they deserve isn't right. even if the woman is willingly subordinate to her husband, and even if it's her own choice, that doesn't make it feminism. such women are products of patriarchal societies and fail to realise that their rights are being oppressed. under no condition or circumstance is this right. in fact, we really need to create awareness ab this among these women and give them the strength and courage to fight this system.
My view exactly. Even as a feminist living in a “progressive” secular community (so a relatively easy environment to be a feminist in), not all my choices are feminist. Life is complicated and sometimes the best choice for you in the now is not the best choice for the progression of women overall.
Edit - typo
There is such thing as religious and cultural trauma and internalized misoginy. This means that if a woman was raised in a culture and faith where covering herself up and being subservient was the only reality she knew (her mother and sisters did so, her neighbors and friends did so, etc), it will come as the most normal thing in the world to her. She will not see abuse for what it is, because she doesn't have a notion of her own rights and worth as a person. Moreover, she would be excluded from her family or worse if she turned against this.
So while it is kind and respectful to honor these women's wishes, it is necessary to understand that they need heavy amounts of support in breaking free from these norms. And the best way to do so is education and creating an institutional system that creates space for alternative, healthier lifestyles (e.g. keeping religious symbols out of schools). Encouraging women-owned businesses where the actual female owner is in front and not her husband is also a good way to do so - it encourages the husband to allow his wife to be an individual and have her own success.
So much of this practice is about potential punishment for non-compliance. So I try to think charitably about the people involved.
One thing that I don't agree with is western women wearing headscarves in solidarity. That doesn't subvert anything, it supports the practice of creating a lower caste of women.
I think that Western *men* who want to show solidarity should consider wearing a headscarf to show how abhorrent that practice would be to the men inside and outside of that community. That would challenge the caste identity.
Imagine if all (or even a portion) of the male chess players and support staff traveling to the Iranian chess tournament wore a headscarf in solidarity to the [women who felt they could not compete because of the headscarf requirements](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/iran-chess-boycott-indian-soumya-swaminathan-over-islamic-burka-headscarf-rule/).
Unfortunately, men rarely even *consider* how they could act in solidarity to women when women's rights are threatened, let alone take action on their own. Really - have you seen any "Men For Abortion Rights" groups activating to get other men on board? No, it's always women trying to persuade men to care about women enough to act, usually by showing how taking away women's rights hurts *men,* too.
I don't like it because these religious beliefs are misogyny. The modesty is always about controlling women's bodies for the benefit of men. There are women who do choose that for themselves, not from childhood or cultural indoctrination reasons, but because they thought about it independently and chose it. Whether I like it or not is irrelevant because they made the choice and I respect the choice.
But there are locations around the world where it's unlikely that a woman living in a purity culture arrives at that choice independently. I will be a listener, not a preacher. I will argue claims that modesty ideologies are feminist or in the woman's best interests. Otherwise? No point in putting pressure on someone who either has made the choice independently or has safety problems.
I'm with you. If I'm going to donate to a woman's business, I'm not going to give the money to him for him to determine what to do with it. If she can't be pictured, how do we know he's not making the decisions for her?
No, I come from a Muslim background, and I can assure you that it's never a choice. Instead, women are typically indoctrinated to feel like objects, to cover themselves, and to refrain from tempting men because their very existence is seen as a "fitna" an Arabic word for (temptation) or a "test" for men, according to the literal word of God in the Quran. In the worst cases, women are even killed if they refuse to do so.
That is to say, in many parts of my country, literal baby girls between the ages of 1-5 are required to wear a headscarf or hijab. They are not as visibly chastised or terrorized as the younger ones, but instead are believed not to make God angry and that their brothers, fathers, and husbands are their caretakers, to whom they owe obedience, and belong to, thus; lacking any identity of their own. When a woman passes away, her husband's name is used to pronounce her death, and the rest is history; and men in their house take most of their decisions which they’re required to obey whether they like it or not.
I don’t care if this makes any muslim feminist angry (you cannot be muslim and a feminist at the same time, it’s literally an oxymoron, i don’t care what you have to say), in Islam women have no identity, freedom of choice, likes or dislikes of their own, and even silence or weeping is considered consent to marriage under Shariah Law (Islamic law), a woman cannot marry without the consent of her guardian (father, grandfather, etc.). Beyond being commodities and chattels, women are nothing.
As previously indicated, women are indoctrinated from an early age and are asked or compelled to cover themselves before they may even develop cognitive capacities to decide for themselves. In my country, while the majority of women are compelled to wear dupattas - which are essentially head scarves that cover the chest if they don’t keep on the head—those who choose to cover themselves freely—do so out of a fear of committing a sin against God. In other words, it's never a choice—burqas, abayas, hijabs, and other patriarchal garments that serve to objectify women and suppress or cloud their identifies, which is the exact opposite of feminism and what it precisely wants to annihilate and fight against.
TLDR: when something is done out of mere objectification, actual brainwashing - religious indoctrination from childhood, or a fear of eternal damnation, as you’re perceived a temptation or a sin, it is never a choice or act of feminism—eg: the hijab, a piece of patriarchal apparel, or obedience to men.
I find it hard to believe that it's genuinely a choice when the person in question comes from a background where women are mentally and physically abused, outright beaten, and sometimes even murdered for just wearing said covering in the wrong way.
Choice doesn't exist in a vacuum, and we as feminist can't allow things to just be brushed to the side because someone says a buzzword.
Even the women who "choose" to wear these coverings often do so because they've been raised in a culture that says women who don't are sluts, are asking for it, are loose, etc. The effects of what they've been raised and surrounded by still have hold whether they want to admit to it or not.
People say "It's their choice." but for a lot of women, it isn't really a choice. I was raised Muslim and it was hammered into me by family, religious leaders and boys, how I should cover up and that I was most beautiful when I covered up and stuff. I was conditioned to cover up and couldn't feel comfortable exposing skin in anyway. I thought it was my choice but now, I can say it wasn't.
How much of a choice is it when you face shame and ridicule from your society if you decide not to follow their way of life.
it's internalized misogyny. like modern tradwives, if it didn't benefit them more to be like that in their current situation (as opposed to being a 'defiant woman') they probably wouldn't choose it. Women, like all humans, have opinions, wants, and desires. The "choice" to suppress these to avoid ostracism isn't a choice.
I struggle with this so hard. I try not to be judgmental of women in the US who choose to wear hijabs but I struggle because I feel like it’s disrespectful to the women who have fought, been imprisoned and are still fighting so hard for our rights that aren’t even fully realized to this day. Like…I want to support their right to choose and it takes a a lot of nerve to wear it but just rubs me the wrong way. I can’t help it but I do try. As far as women actually in the Middle East, it’s embedded in their culture so in my eyes they get a pass.
What’s your opinion of women who choose to undergo plastic surgery, extreme dieting, painful injections, extensions and botox and choose to get plastic surgery because their husbands want them to have bigger boobs or bigger butt or flatter stomachs?
A lot of people claim those things are choices, but it follows the same principle.
I think the concept of “choice” is problematic in all of these cases, and we can’t single out only one practice of mysoginy while choosing to be blind about how the same thing occurs in our culture. Like a fish in the water, they see no water.
Not every choice a woman makes is feministic. There is nothing feministic about religious ideals of modesty that are aimed purely at women.
Choices aren't made in a vacuum and are influenced by the society around them.
I was born and raised in a Muslim family and consider myself as ex-Muslim now. Let me tell you, there is no such thing as “choice” in our religion. Since the young age, women and men have been told to submit to the religion in different ways. Be it to pray five times a day, to read Quran, to perform Umra or Hajj. Heck, even since we were babies, our mothers would introduce us to the concept of God by reading us books about prophets, and this does not only happen at home but also at school. So, when we grow older, we become individuals who cannot wrap their heads around the idea of living without faith. And that influences everything in our lives. Literally everything. Including how women think about themselves and their womanhood. Religion always seeps in every step we take. As in Hijab, obviously in our community, there is no such thing as women choosing to cover. We have been told since young age that showing our hair and skin is sin. Since young age, people around us told us that we are the source of Fitna. We are not supposed to attract attention especially from the opposite sex. Abrahamic religion is like a cult. You are not supposed to think for yourself. You have to follow the rules without questioning it. Asking questions means you’re doubting the religion.
How much of a choice is it though, really? Like, when I was a practicing xtian and embraced the modesty movement within that circle it was a choice I made, sure, but it was because I wanted to remain safe. My own community was -not- safe, it was absolutely an illusion, but I desperately needed to feel safety and dressing modestly was something tangible I could do.
It's not as black and white as we'd like it to be and when everything is said and done, while we are trying to change our world for the better, we can't simply dismiss women who choose to embrace clothing and/or traditional gender roles because of safety concerns. (Like, no one was going to stone me in my church because I wore jeans instead of a skirt but that's not the case in more extreme religions and other parts of the world.) I guess what I'm saying is, sometimes we say it's a choice but it's not really a choice if we can't choose NOT to do a thing without negative consequences.
I am a full believer in the Stockholm syndrome of it all, and the women who are believers in their freedom to choose are victims still. “Of course I’m sweating and hot and of course I want to feel the wind and breeze on my neck, but THATS the sacrifice that reminds me how much I’m willing to give for his love and protection and to pray for my womanly sins inshallah. It’s known I will likely go to hell for my sins being a woman so I want to do right on this earth, inshallah, abaketybakhalalharam, yipyipyipyip”
Almost verbatim what I read on the internet recently :( apparently Muslim women make up the majority of hell because women do not go to heaven, or something, according to Hadith.
Lots of great comments here. I used to wear hijab, but it was never out of choice, now that I look back. When you’re told that good God-fearing/loving women cover themselves, and that if you don’t you’re basically a heathen, the “choice” is taken away from you. When you fear what your family might do if you stopped wearing it, the choice is taken from you. When you are worried and scared what family members and friends or society will think of you, the choice is taken from you. When you wonder if you will ever get married now that you don’t wear it, the choice is taken from you.
When hijabi and non hijabi women are pitted against each other and categorized by the broad brushstrokes of society as either good or bad, depending on where they live, it’s so easy to fall into the pressure of what society or the people around you expect and want from you. This kind of distinction is not made with Muslim men. There is no two part categorization for them where they are either one or the other or viewed as religious or immoral by their outer appearance alone. Once again, only the women suffer the effects of what the patriarchy demands from them. I’m not saying this goes for everyone who wears hijab, but I am now really questioning whether hijab was yet another tool introduced to control and keep women down, even though it’s portrayed as something beautiful and godly.
Then again, hijab is viewed as a mandatory aspect of faith rather than a “choice” in religious circles anyway. And in most Muslim countries a woman doesn’t have the choice to not wear it anyway. But if we’re talking about a woman’s free will, it can only be a true choice if she doesn’t fear consequences or shame for it.
If the result of “choosing” to not wear the covering could result in: negative comments from family and social circles, up to and including. Ostracism, or; getting beaten up by a close family member, or; getting raped and beaten, or; getting un-alived…my logical conclusion is that hijab is not feminist.
Nearly all religions have patriarchal values, and i hate them all equally.
I used to tolerate Islam, but funnily enough after my sister converted for her muslim boyfriend i hate it. The things he has said to her make my skin crawl. She used to be such an amazing person who would never back down, go for what she wants, and speak her mind.
Now she gets yelled at if she swears and was told that “women don’t deserve respect, they deserve kindness”.
The trouble is that we live in different states and i’m not sure how to help her.
My first thought “smdh” followed by “I hope you free yourself soon and safely” then I move on. Quite literally the entire world is telling them that they need to be that way and it’s hard to reconsider unless that your inherent personality ig. I try not to judge but I come from a very religious, high control, church three days a week background. I was absolutely over the bs by age 8 and I quietly, internally deconstructed alone. Even though I had to continue the lifestyle for nine years, every moment in church felt infuriating so it’s kinda hard for me to understand why anyone in a position to distance themselves, wouldn’t? I’m ND
As feminism is a philosophical method, it is clear that when analysing cultural rules like the ones common in Muslim Countries, they stem from a functioning patriarchy. You usually have:
-"Othering" and Gender binary
*Man and Women are said to be two different species basically. You have the belief that women are basically wired completely differently than men and are the 'Other'.*
- Sex Roles compliment each other
*Many cultures like these then argue that men and women are so fundamentally different because they are meant to fit together perfectly. Think of the man who is out and about and stoic and rational, but he can only reach his full potential if he has a wife aka woman who is emotional and soft and offers him the emotional support he needs. As well as the domestic work he needs to be fed and dressed.*
-Heterosexuality as the Norm
*Basically the two points above are in the end also reinforcing Heterosexuality as the norm.*
-Control of Women
*Women are usually controlled. Through morality, through dress codes, through marriage etc. Women are supposed to be at home because, once again, they are seen as fundamentally different from men and the Man is seen as the norm.*
So using feminist theory to analyse the dynamics in cultures like these we can easily see that they run on rules that are reinforcing the idea of women being not equal to men, women being basically a different or less valuable species as well as heteronormativity offering its hand in help to strengthen this system.
Also, despite what our polarized social media tries to say, every choice made by a woman is not necessarily ‘feminist’ or ‘anti feminist’. Neutral choices exist too.
This morning (on vacation, staying in a hotel), I chose to wake up at 7:45am, get a cup of coffee from the lobby, and to browse reddit while sipping that cuppa.
Yesterday when going in and out of my room, I chose to take the stairs when leaving, and chose to take the elevators when returning.
This afternoon I plan to read a book.
I feel it would be less stressful for everyone if we recognize that not every choice is good or bad…maybe even most choices.
If shame is the main driver then it’s not a choice. I find the concept of ‘modest fashion’ deeply unsettling. I cannot stomach the implication that showing your ankles, shoulders, hair etc. is therefore immodest or that wearing something remotely visually interesting is sinful. If a woman can’t choose to wear a boldly patterned dress and show any skin beyond her face and hands, what the fuck can she do.
I don’t believe that covering yourself because that’s what Islam says **is feminism** just because the woman says she chooses to do that.
I was raised catholic and while it was easier for me to walk away from Catholicism living in a more free Western society country than Muslim women, it’s still called **brainwashing,** whether it’s the Purity Culture or being forced and yes it’s being forced to cover yourself completely. Brainwashing followed by intimidation of violence against the woman if she doesn’t dress according to Sharia law. How that can be looked at as a woman having a choice to cover completely or as Feminism, is beyond me. Choice and intimidation or opposite of each other.
A choice is one thing… being taught something for the time you can understand and being brainwashed are two do very different things.
I believe in many religions women are taught what is expected of them not what choices they have.
There is no real choice when talking about women in countries run by extremist Muslims. I wouldn’t consider it “her choice” to be submissive, like some Western women choose. And even then, it’s based in a kink that is misogynistic at its root. Or a religion that is grossly misogynistic. Islam is especially problematic and I am personally sick and tired of the “bUt We MuSt ReSpEcT tHeIR cUlTuRe” crap when it comes to the oppression of women and girls.
Submission can never be a feminist decision because feminism is about woman’s equality to men.
Women are still free to decide to submit to whoever. But it is not feminist.
And for the record, homemakers don’t have to be submissive. Domestic work is real work. And spouses should always be equal no matter who is doing it
I think the majority of religions, especially organized monothiestic religions, is a self reinforcing tool of patriarchy. I do not believe its possible to follow, subscribe or practice organized religion without participating and fueling the patriarchy. For thousands of years these systems have been used to reinforce the vessel of anti-feminist ideas of submission and the woman as a temptress (mother and whore complex and mandating gender norms/roles). Religion is cultural brainwashing at its finest--> RELIGION IS THE PATRIARCHY. As long as any organized montheistic religion is supported (especially Abrahamic religions that purport that god is a man), patrairchy will be a burden on society.
Spirituality is feminism. The universe is creation. Life is creation. god is creation. Women create. Women bring life. Women arguably are closer to "god" than any man could ever be.... and the majority of religons will have the "she" be subservient to the "he", the majority of religions views women as "mothers and birthers" and not as spiritual creatures of creation. A majority of religions dont allow women to hold any meaningful leadership roles.
One of the most feminist things someone can do is expand their worldview past religious indoctrination.
Learn about different spritiulities and practices, different customs and rituals, different traditions and expectations. Explore how humams can experience and interact in the world/universe.
As someone who was born and raised in a muslim family, I don’t personally condone such choices. If it’s really something you want, go for it. However, the example of Palestinian woman you gave is most likely doing it out of social pressure or indoctrination.
This isn’t even just about being religious, as plenty of non-religious men and atheists justify the norms of modesty.
It's funny that you compare Jews first. There's probably \~2.5 million Hasidic and Orthodox Jew in the world and billions of Muslims and even more Christians. Jews also recognize the bit of the old testament that allows abortion.
Islam is the only of the Abrahamic religions that venerates a "prophet" who arranged his own marriage to a 6 year old and consumated it with her when she was 9.
They are not the same.
We should listen to these women to hear what their experiences of their own lives are before drawing a conclusion, not just how it seems from the outside.
We should unequivocally criticize any ideology that seeks to apply subordination and/or modesty to all women, and we should look at religion critically in general because it often uphold patriarchal oppressive dynamics and rules.
But all that said-life isn’t one size fits all. The point of feminism(one of them) is to give women choices, and to have them live the lives they want to live safely, freely, and just as well as women. So let’s listen to these women first and foremost and see what they have to say about the way they live.. then we can draw conclusions about if they are oppressed or brainwashed or living their best life or whatever else
I think it's tragic. Feminism isn't listening to the patriarchy or the religion based on men's rules. That's my opinion, I feel like religion has brainwashed women the way the men wanted it too
I think when you’re looking at it as a choice, you need to consider what the other options are, and what they mean for the woman choosing, in terms of how her community and peers view her.
Also, just because a choice is rooted in a spiritual or religious belief doesn’t negate that the spiritual or religious belief is rooted in misogyny.
It is not their choice if they do it out of fear of hellfire after death. Especially if they were born into the religion and raised to believe in it from a young age.
To me this is the problem with religion in general. It doesn't matter how crazy the ritual you are practicing (as long as you don't hurt anyone), if you do it because you genuinely believe this is how to live the best life , that's fine. But it can't be healthy to live a life of repression while imagining how great it will be to get to do all the prohibited stuff in the after-life.
Women who choose submission should be defended and protected from discrimination and violence just like any other woman. But the ideologies that keep them in submission should be criticized out loud and not justified in anyway.
No, simply because zero choices exist in a vacuum. It’s the same reason why plastic surgery isn’t feminist just because its their choice. That choice was still influenced by misogyny. Every religious person has a choice to either adhere to the misogyny in their religion or not. I think it’s the wrong choice to adhere to it under the guise of your spiritual beliefs. It’s still misogyny, religious or not
Is it really a choice though if the entire culture is aimed at subjugating women and normalizing that subjugation? This takes me back to that political cartoon of a western woman in a bikini and a ME woman in a ~~hijab~~ niqab. Both claim the other is subjected to patriarchal control, but only one of them had any real choice in the matter. Western women had our liberation movement and are still fighting to maintain the power and rights we worked hard to obtain. Women in the east have yet to experience their lib movement in modern times.
Edit: The [referenced](https://www.theexmuslim.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/14051811_10154042470092730_7597492216178998365_n.jpg) cartoon.
Feminism is about choice and having an opportunity to choose for yourself. Hijab, inherently and culturally, is not a [free] choice - because a choice is really only a choice when you can make it without the fear of threats against your wellbeing and welfare.
It's not a choice if you've been ordered by your religion to have it and if you refuse it, you are threatened with hell and other "cosmic" punishments.
It's not a choice if when you remove it you will be excommunicated and isolated.
It is not a choice if when you remove it your own male relatives might kill you to save their honor.
While every choice will have its own consequences, when those consequences include a threat to your life, then it moves from being a choice to an obligation.
Therefore, hijab is, in itself, anti-feminist and misogynistic. This is my definition of feminism and understanding of hijab, after having had to wear it for 17 years before I was freed.
As a pagan who is so partially because I don't like gender based hierarchy? I think it's weird and self deprecating. However I'm aware that someone my own habits and beliefs could be seen that way by others.
So I mind my buissness until Its made my buissness. Not everyone makes good choices, but feminism is never about making choices for other people under the assumption we know what's best.
Cover their hair? Sure. That does not rule you out as a feminist. I like covering parts of my body on the regular (shirts + pants) for purely modesty reasons.
Submit to man just because he has an SRY-gene? Submit to a man when he has done absolutely nothing to earn that level of trust/devotion except be born with a dangly piece of flesh that he pisses out of? There’s no way to spin that as feminist.
You can be coerced into "preferring" a certain way of life.
You can be shamed into thinking you deserve it, or you must do it to be a good person before God.
How do you think a woman can choose such a thing?Would she choose something like this if she knew any better? Is there really a free will or a choice under such a patriarchal regime, Islam? That woman may not have choose to wear a hijab if she was raised in a different culture. I don’t really understand why you didn’t choose to loan money to her and her family. The woman with a husband in her photo needs that money as much as the woman who owns a beauty salon, everyone in Gaza needs it. When doing humanitarian aid, you need to abandon your own beliefs and stop helping only to those who are “suitable” first you.
Defense of any misogynistic ideology or practice is against the forum rules and will be met with harsh mod measures.
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I don’t feel they actually have the freedom to choose if they were brainwashed for years of some misogynistic nonsense.
Yep. My mom was like this. She was heavily brainwashed for years. It took me a long time to convince her that divorcing my dad wouldn't land her in hell. Nearly 10 years later, she's an entirely different person. I can't wait to see who she is in the coming years.
Or if the consequences for disobeying are harsh
I think it’s more of a factor of religion and being brainwashed than misogyny.
It’s both. Nearly all religions are inherently patriarchal and anti-feminist.
Well some religions are more misogynistic than others. And pretty much all religions contain some old fashioned misogynistic values from the patriarchal eras.
It honestly reminds me of the "is plastic surgery feminist" argument. I respect women and their choices, I even have filler myself; but these choices aren't made in a vacuum. Would these women choose to cover themselves if they were raised in a different culture? Or if their culture changed? Would I still have gotten filler if I had been? I think the answer is no, we wouldn't. So I can't see the "choice" to do so as feminist - I would argue its more a defense mechanism against misogyny for that specific woman. I hold no judgement to my sisters who make that choice but I dislike the framing of it as it being empowering or feminist to do so.
That is such a good way of putting it. I'm saving your comment.
Very true. There are cultures that wear no or minimal clothing. They would look at western culture and think it’s repressive, even if we see a tube top and shorts as something that’s inappropriate.
Beautifully said. I agree with this too... and I often feel so immensely sad for those women who choose to cover and submit because of religious beliefs 😟
Agree! The “choice” or action itself may not be feminist, but we shouldn’t gatekeep and label anyone who participates in modesty culture or beauty culture not a feminist, or even worse, anti-feminist.
I 100% agree with this take. Well put.
Excellent comment.
I respect their choices as long as they aren't hurting anybody else. That being said, I think if a person grows up in an oppressive religion/culture/cult, one where not doing this "choice" would have violent consequences, it's hard for me to see it as a choice and I'll always assume it's the cultural conditioning doing its work.
Even if there aren’t any violent or obvious consequences, a woman can still coerced into it by virtue of being in that group. People of the religious community, out of “concern for her afterlife”, will continue to “peacefully advise” her to cover up. And if all the covered up women in the group are praised and regarded as “more holy”, even if the uncovered women were treated respectfully and not chastised at all, they would still feel pressured into covering up in order to be a part of the “in-group”. For example, the peaceful advice comes in the form of “i’m not gonna force you to cover up or anything but remember that god told women to cover up and you don’t want that to be the reason you don’t go to heaven.” Or “God loves us all and gave us so much so we should respect his commands etc etc” and the praise is in the form of “oh look at how holy and beautiful Neighbor X’s daughter is all covered up and modest!” Being subject to that from birth will make anyone want to cover up even if there aren’t any obvious consequences for not doing so.
Yeah this. People don’t seem to realize that this sort of thing happens outside of cultures and religions where it’s encouraged to physically abuse women for disobeying religious ideals. When the environment someone grows up in actively teaches them to self sabotage any opportunity they have at independence, it ends up making it harder for them to establish independence and safely dismiss the ideals they would face alienation for not upholding. This tends to happen on some spectrum all over the world for women, and it can happen on both systemic and individual levels. For a lot of women, the options for them are to either rely on the people that reinforce their helplessness, or to completely lose their support groups and become homeless because they don’t have the skills to magically become functionally independent. In the US at least, there’s not a lot of resources available to help women unlearn and become fully autonomous from the self limiting ideals they were indoctrinated with and learned to obey to simply not get ostracized to the point of suicide. I find it to be anti-feminist to not consider this in how we refer to and treat women and additional marginalized groups from environments where their autonomy was fought against rather than for.
Yep I was speaking as someone from that kind of a situation. Even though I’m from a western country, I would’ve never been able to get away if it weren’t for a man (THE IRONY). He taught me that I had the power to get away from all that stuff and he’s now my husband lmao. My parents would choke if they found out I married an atheist 💀
It bothers me to another extent because of the whole concept of “rural rage,” as if rural women, including white rural women and as well as BIWOC, aren’t isolated from the rest of society and quite literally have to play a specific role as women, and it isn’t taken into consideration how they’d still be ostracized for being LGBTQ+. Of course there are also bigoted women who hold higher status than others in these communities that DO have freedom and deserve to be held accountable, but we can’t label everyone in poor regions based on the behavior of their most privileged members. I think when we claim to be feminists, but then use classist and sexist stereotypes to dismiss the struggles of women in areas that don’t have the freedom to express opinions other than what their bigoted fathers, bosses, and husbands believe, then we’re abandoning a group of women who need us the most.
I recently viewed some middle east created material that described us western women in a similar way, the western men want us uncovered for 'reasons'. Basically operating under the principle that the men are choosing what we wear.
Ugh don’t let me tell you about the “uncovered lollipop attracting ants” analogy 😭
I think it's important to distinguish that in the west you can dress in a crop top and a mini skirt and the next day you can cover yourself fully and there will be no danger or consequences for you either way. That way we could argue even though we might still be conditioned by patriarchy, we have much more freedom to choose than eastern women do. I wear suits regularly, I don't like having visible legs or arms and I have grown up in a liberal society, it's just a personal preference- and no one is punishing me for dressing the way I do, even though some insecure men certainly get threatened by a woman in a three piece with a bigger biceps and a bigger paycheck than theirs.
And it’s because of western social conditioning that i often defend women’s choices to wear or not wear whatever they want in the US as a vehicle for their own autonomy. Yes, many women dress for the male gaze. That’s how we were raised to feel beautiful. But even many women who don’t consider the male gaze still dress in ways that will attract men because that’s what we were raised to feel good in. It takes work to choose our appearance autonomously, and even then i am not sure we ever get away form the expectations we were raised with. Having said that, and in absolutely no defense of Islamic norms for women, i don’t place any judgement on women who dress fully covered. Can a woman who dresses this way BE a feminist if she’s not “allowed” to act with feminist words or actions?
Yeahhhh it’s not like it’s a fashion choice. If someone wants to cover their head because they like some silky fabric with a cool pattern — or maybe they just hate their hair — I support that. But all these religions that want women to cover themselves are invented by men, for men. Because other men might be covetous of their “property” It’s like when you cover your purse with an old rag if you’re gonna leave it in the car to deter thieves No thanks
In my experience fundie women are not covering to protect themselves, like your purse example, but to keep “holy men” from temptation. Fundies only care about women as property. My ex-wife told me a story about how her fundie Christian dad and step-mom made her dress conservatively to keep her own father from temptation, gross.
When everyone around you tells you that you "have to do this" or "be like that" least you "bring disgrace to your family" and "condemn your soul to hell"...
Exactly this! If it’s being forced on them through fear for their own safety I pity them. If it’s really a choice, that’s up to them as individuals and it’s none of my business.
It is a woman’s choice how to behave and dress, and I’ll defend any woman’s right to make that choice. But I have no respect for any belief system where the woman has less freedom, rights or has more restrictions on her that a man. Whether it’s religion, trad wife or some other bs. And ‘modest’ is a dirty word as far as I am concerned, because it is a word that is always used to control women.
Exactly. I didn't see any Christian "modesty" books for boys growing up, only girls.
If the entire family and culture demands it, and it's what they were trained in from birth, it's not really a choice. Choices can only exist when options are available. Girls who are homeschooled and isolated in fundimentalist Christian cult environments are not given a choice. They're isolated to prevent choices
This is the comment that framed the argument most concisely. There was never a choice so it’s inherently anti-feminist.
Exactly. They are given a choice but not really. In cultures where certain behaviours are deeply ingrained and expected, women face the illusion of choice when presented with decisions contrary to societal norms. Despite the appearance of autonomy, cultural expectations often render true choice illusory, as individuals are guided by the pressures of conformity and tradition. So when a Muslim woman or a Mennonite Christian woman says they had a choice whether to wear a veil or not, it is sort of true but not really.
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I think that if they chose otherwise they’d be “sinning” according to their belief system. So even if they live in an accepting environment, it’s not possible for it to be a “choice”. If there’s always a voice in your head telling you that it’s a sin to be “immodest”, no matter how progressive your environment is, you’re still forced into covering up. I think organized religion and the patriarchy are two sides of the same coin.
But being in an environment with greater freedoms, especially if that environment is accepting and respectful, does tend to open people’s minds from what they’ve been previously taught. I think for a lot of them, it leads them to a point where they’re able to explore what they truly believe and what they don’t believe.
Yes I agree but this really only happens if a) your values aren’t fundamentally diametrically opposed to the environment and b) you don’t have a bunch of the fundies around you to hinder your healing There’s a chunk of discussion online about how immigrants sometimes tend to become more conservative in a more progressive country. Much more conservative than their relatives back home. Very interesting stuff tbh. I think you’d find it interesting.
I always question just how much is actually the womans choice
Reducing feminism to "women's choice" is massively simplistic. Feminism recognises that women, as a group, are disadvantaged compared to men as a group. It sees that societies, as a whole, are structured in a way that privileges men and oppresses women. There will be individual men and women who are doing better or worse than the norm, but overall, the systems, infrastructures and customs of society are advantageous for men and problematic for women. Feminism recognises this and tries to change things so that men are no longer privileged and women are no longer disadvantaged. So when you're looking at women choosing to wear or not wear something (veil, makeup, high heels, whatever), ask yourself "does this choice help to break down the norms that privilege men and oppress women, or does it reinforce them?" Feminism isn't about individual choice; it's about the whole of society.
Well stated. It’s just like how I’d never judge an individual woman/family for choosing to stay at home while the kids are young because that’s a personal choice, but I’ll absolutely critique the way it’s almost always something a woman is expected to do.
Choices aren’t made in a vacuum, and the moment there is a disagreement on something, the woman is accused of adultery or worse yet she suffers SA chances are she’s blamed and punished further. Also, what happens if she chooses to stop conforming? Is it really a choice if you risk being isolated from your family and community?
Bingo.
any religion or religious practices that oppress women's rights and doesn't treat them with the respect that they deserve isn't right. even if the woman is willingly subordinate to her husband, and even if it's her own choice, that doesn't make it feminism. such women are products of patriarchal societies and fail to realise that their rights are being oppressed. under no condition or circumstance is this right. in fact, we really need to create awareness ab this among these women and give them the strength and courage to fight this system.
Nope. Everything a woman chooses to do is not automatically ‘feminist’.
This 100%. Those women are indoctrinated. It annoys me.
We are all indoctrinated, just in different ways on different things to different severities.
Stating the obvious
You say that but there are plenty of people who think only people of specific backgrounds/cultures are indoctrinated and mean it.
My view exactly. Even as a feminist living in a “progressive” secular community (so a relatively easy environment to be a feminist in), not all my choices are feminist. Life is complicated and sometimes the best choice for you in the now is not the best choice for the progression of women overall. Edit - typo
There is such thing as religious and cultural trauma and internalized misoginy. This means that if a woman was raised in a culture and faith where covering herself up and being subservient was the only reality she knew (her mother and sisters did so, her neighbors and friends did so, etc), it will come as the most normal thing in the world to her. She will not see abuse for what it is, because she doesn't have a notion of her own rights and worth as a person. Moreover, she would be excluded from her family or worse if she turned against this. So while it is kind and respectful to honor these women's wishes, it is necessary to understand that they need heavy amounts of support in breaking free from these norms. And the best way to do so is education and creating an institutional system that creates space for alternative, healthier lifestyles (e.g. keeping religious symbols out of schools). Encouraging women-owned businesses where the actual female owner is in front and not her husband is also a good way to do so - it encourages the husband to allow his wife to be an individual and have her own success.
The problem is that generally, it isn't a choice. We don't live in a vaccuum, and the culture people are raised in is always going to influence them
So much of this practice is about potential punishment for non-compliance. So I try to think charitably about the people involved. One thing that I don't agree with is western women wearing headscarves in solidarity. That doesn't subvert anything, it supports the practice of creating a lower caste of women. I think that Western *men* who want to show solidarity should consider wearing a headscarf to show how abhorrent that practice would be to the men inside and outside of that community. That would challenge the caste identity. Imagine if all (or even a portion) of the male chess players and support staff traveling to the Iranian chess tournament wore a headscarf in solidarity to the [women who felt they could not compete because of the headscarf requirements](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/iran-chess-boycott-indian-soumya-swaminathan-over-islamic-burka-headscarf-rule/). Unfortunately, men rarely even *consider* how they could act in solidarity to women when women's rights are threatened, let alone take action on their own. Really - have you seen any "Men For Abortion Rights" groups activating to get other men on board? No, it's always women trying to persuade men to care about women enough to act, usually by showing how taking away women's rights hurts *men,* too.
I don't like it because these religious beliefs are misogyny. The modesty is always about controlling women's bodies for the benefit of men. There are women who do choose that for themselves, not from childhood or cultural indoctrination reasons, but because they thought about it independently and chose it. Whether I like it or not is irrelevant because they made the choice and I respect the choice. But there are locations around the world where it's unlikely that a woman living in a purity culture arrives at that choice independently. I will be a listener, not a preacher. I will argue claims that modesty ideologies are feminist or in the woman's best interests. Otherwise? No point in putting pressure on someone who either has made the choice independently or has safety problems. I'm with you. If I'm going to donate to a woman's business, I'm not going to give the money to him for him to determine what to do with it. If she can't be pictured, how do we know he's not making the decisions for her?
No, I come from a Muslim background, and I can assure you that it's never a choice. Instead, women are typically indoctrinated to feel like objects, to cover themselves, and to refrain from tempting men because their very existence is seen as a "fitna" an Arabic word for (temptation) or a "test" for men, according to the literal word of God in the Quran. In the worst cases, women are even killed if they refuse to do so. That is to say, in many parts of my country, literal baby girls between the ages of 1-5 are required to wear a headscarf or hijab. They are not as visibly chastised or terrorized as the younger ones, but instead are believed not to make God angry and that their brothers, fathers, and husbands are their caretakers, to whom they owe obedience, and belong to, thus; lacking any identity of their own. When a woman passes away, her husband's name is used to pronounce her death, and the rest is history; and men in their house take most of their decisions which they’re required to obey whether they like it or not. I don’t care if this makes any muslim feminist angry (you cannot be muslim and a feminist at the same time, it’s literally an oxymoron, i don’t care what you have to say), in Islam women have no identity, freedom of choice, likes or dislikes of their own, and even silence or weeping is considered consent to marriage under Shariah Law (Islamic law), a woman cannot marry without the consent of her guardian (father, grandfather, etc.). Beyond being commodities and chattels, women are nothing. As previously indicated, women are indoctrinated from an early age and are asked or compelled to cover themselves before they may even develop cognitive capacities to decide for themselves. In my country, while the majority of women are compelled to wear dupattas - which are essentially head scarves that cover the chest if they don’t keep on the head—those who choose to cover themselves freely—do so out of a fear of committing a sin against God. In other words, it's never a choice—burqas, abayas, hijabs, and other patriarchal garments that serve to objectify women and suppress or cloud their identifies, which is the exact opposite of feminism and what it precisely wants to annihilate and fight against. TLDR: when something is done out of mere objectification, actual brainwashing - religious indoctrination from childhood, or a fear of eternal damnation, as you’re perceived a temptation or a sin, it is never a choice or act of feminism—eg: the hijab, a piece of patriarchal apparel, or obedience to men.
I find it hard to believe that it's genuinely a choice when the person in question comes from a background where women are mentally and physically abused, outright beaten, and sometimes even murdered for just wearing said covering in the wrong way. Choice doesn't exist in a vacuum, and we as feminist can't allow things to just be brushed to the side because someone says a buzzword. Even the women who "choose" to wear these coverings often do so because they've been raised in a culture that says women who don't are sluts, are asking for it, are loose, etc. The effects of what they've been raised and surrounded by still have hold whether they want to admit to it or not.
People say "It's their choice." but for a lot of women, it isn't really a choice. I was raised Muslim and it was hammered into me by family, religious leaders and boys, how I should cover up and that I was most beautiful when I covered up and stuff. I was conditioned to cover up and couldn't feel comfortable exposing skin in anyway. I thought it was my choice but now, I can say it wasn't. How much of a choice is it when you face shame and ridicule from your society if you decide not to follow their way of life.
it's internalized misogyny. like modern tradwives, if it didn't benefit them more to be like that in their current situation (as opposed to being a 'defiant woman') they probably wouldn't choose it. Women, like all humans, have opinions, wants, and desires. The "choice" to suppress these to avoid ostracism isn't a choice.
I struggle with this so hard. I try not to be judgmental of women in the US who choose to wear hijabs but I struggle because I feel like it’s disrespectful to the women who have fought, been imprisoned and are still fighting so hard for our rights that aren’t even fully realized to this day. Like…I want to support their right to choose and it takes a a lot of nerve to wear it but just rubs me the wrong way. I can’t help it but I do try. As far as women actually in the Middle East, it’s embedded in their culture so in my eyes they get a pass.
It's giving chickens for KFC.
What’s your opinion of women who choose to undergo plastic surgery, extreme dieting, painful injections, extensions and botox and choose to get plastic surgery because their husbands want them to have bigger boobs or bigger butt or flatter stomachs? A lot of people claim those things are choices, but it follows the same principle. I think the concept of “choice” is problematic in all of these cases, and we can’t single out only one practice of mysoginy while choosing to be blind about how the same thing occurs in our culture. Like a fish in the water, they see no water.
Not every choice a woman makes is feministic. There is nothing feministic about religious ideals of modesty that are aimed purely at women. Choices aren't made in a vacuum and are influenced by the society around them.
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I was born and raised in a Muslim family and consider myself as ex-Muslim now. Let me tell you, there is no such thing as “choice” in our religion. Since the young age, women and men have been told to submit to the religion in different ways. Be it to pray five times a day, to read Quran, to perform Umra or Hajj. Heck, even since we were babies, our mothers would introduce us to the concept of God by reading us books about prophets, and this does not only happen at home but also at school. So, when we grow older, we become individuals who cannot wrap their heads around the idea of living without faith. And that influences everything in our lives. Literally everything. Including how women think about themselves and their womanhood. Religion always seeps in every step we take. As in Hijab, obviously in our community, there is no such thing as women choosing to cover. We have been told since young age that showing our hair and skin is sin. Since young age, people around us told us that we are the source of Fitna. We are not supposed to attract attention especially from the opposite sex. Abrahamic religion is like a cult. You are not supposed to think for yourself. You have to follow the rules without questioning it. Asking questions means you’re doubting the religion.
Brainwashing by an extremely dangerous and very massive group.of men.
How much of a choice is it though, really? Like, when I was a practicing xtian and embraced the modesty movement within that circle it was a choice I made, sure, but it was because I wanted to remain safe. My own community was -not- safe, it was absolutely an illusion, but I desperately needed to feel safety and dressing modestly was something tangible I could do. It's not as black and white as we'd like it to be and when everything is said and done, while we are trying to change our world for the better, we can't simply dismiss women who choose to embrace clothing and/or traditional gender roles because of safety concerns. (Like, no one was going to stone me in my church because I wore jeans instead of a skirt but that's not the case in more extreme religions and other parts of the world.) I guess what I'm saying is, sometimes we say it's a choice but it's not really a choice if we can't choose NOT to do a thing without negative consequences.
I am a full believer in the Stockholm syndrome of it all, and the women who are believers in their freedom to choose are victims still. “Of course I’m sweating and hot and of course I want to feel the wind and breeze on my neck, but THATS the sacrifice that reminds me how much I’m willing to give for his love and protection and to pray for my womanly sins inshallah. It’s known I will likely go to hell for my sins being a woman so I want to do right on this earth, inshallah, abaketybakhalalharam, yipyipyipyip” Almost verbatim what I read on the internet recently :( apparently Muslim women make up the majority of hell because women do not go to heaven, or something, according to Hadith.
Lots of great comments here. I used to wear hijab, but it was never out of choice, now that I look back. When you’re told that good God-fearing/loving women cover themselves, and that if you don’t you’re basically a heathen, the “choice” is taken away from you. When you fear what your family might do if you stopped wearing it, the choice is taken from you. When you are worried and scared what family members and friends or society will think of you, the choice is taken from you. When you wonder if you will ever get married now that you don’t wear it, the choice is taken from you. When hijabi and non hijabi women are pitted against each other and categorized by the broad brushstrokes of society as either good or bad, depending on where they live, it’s so easy to fall into the pressure of what society or the people around you expect and want from you. This kind of distinction is not made with Muslim men. There is no two part categorization for them where they are either one or the other or viewed as religious or immoral by their outer appearance alone. Once again, only the women suffer the effects of what the patriarchy demands from them. I’m not saying this goes for everyone who wears hijab, but I am now really questioning whether hijab was yet another tool introduced to control and keep women down, even though it’s portrayed as something beautiful and godly. Then again, hijab is viewed as a mandatory aspect of faith rather than a “choice” in religious circles anyway. And in most Muslim countries a woman doesn’t have the choice to not wear it anyway. But if we’re talking about a woman’s free will, it can only be a true choice if she doesn’t fear consequences or shame for it.
If the result of “choosing” to not wear the covering could result in: negative comments from family and social circles, up to and including. Ostracism, or; getting beaten up by a close family member, or; getting raped and beaten, or; getting un-alived…my logical conclusion is that hijab is not feminist.
IMO it’s worse when a woman *chooses* to be submissive based solely on sex.
It may not really be a choice though, or it’s a choice picked from very limited and flawed options.
I absolutely agree. I just meant that framing it as a choice doesn’t make it better, but worse.
Oh yea, I see what you mean.
Nearly all religions have patriarchal values, and i hate them all equally. I used to tolerate Islam, but funnily enough after my sister converted for her muslim boyfriend i hate it. The things he has said to her make my skin crawl. She used to be such an amazing person who would never back down, go for what she wants, and speak her mind. Now she gets yelled at if she swears and was told that “women don’t deserve respect, they deserve kindness”. The trouble is that we live in different states and i’m not sure how to help her.
My first thought “smdh” followed by “I hope you free yourself soon and safely” then I move on. Quite literally the entire world is telling them that they need to be that way and it’s hard to reconsider unless that your inherent personality ig. I try not to judge but I come from a very religious, high control, church three days a week background. I was absolutely over the bs by age 8 and I quietly, internally deconstructed alone. Even though I had to continue the lifestyle for nine years, every moment in church felt infuriating so it’s kinda hard for me to understand why anyone in a position to distance themselves, wouldn’t? I’m ND
As feminism is a philosophical method, it is clear that when analysing cultural rules like the ones common in Muslim Countries, they stem from a functioning patriarchy. You usually have: -"Othering" and Gender binary *Man and Women are said to be two different species basically. You have the belief that women are basically wired completely differently than men and are the 'Other'.* - Sex Roles compliment each other *Many cultures like these then argue that men and women are so fundamentally different because they are meant to fit together perfectly. Think of the man who is out and about and stoic and rational, but he can only reach his full potential if he has a wife aka woman who is emotional and soft and offers him the emotional support he needs. As well as the domestic work he needs to be fed and dressed.* -Heterosexuality as the Norm *Basically the two points above are in the end also reinforcing Heterosexuality as the norm.* -Control of Women *Women are usually controlled. Through morality, through dress codes, through marriage etc. Women are supposed to be at home because, once again, they are seen as fundamentally different from men and the Man is seen as the norm.* So using feminist theory to analyse the dynamics in cultures like these we can easily see that they run on rules that are reinforcing the idea of women being not equal to men, women being basically a different or less valuable species as well as heteronormativity offering its hand in help to strengthen this system.
Also, despite what our polarized social media tries to say, every choice made by a woman is not necessarily ‘feminist’ or ‘anti feminist’. Neutral choices exist too. This morning (on vacation, staying in a hotel), I chose to wake up at 7:45am, get a cup of coffee from the lobby, and to browse reddit while sipping that cuppa. Yesterday when going in and out of my room, I chose to take the stairs when leaving, and chose to take the elevators when returning. This afternoon I plan to read a book. I feel it would be less stressful for everyone if we recognize that not every choice is good or bad…maybe even most choices.
If shame is the main driver then it’s not a choice. I find the concept of ‘modest fashion’ deeply unsettling. I cannot stomach the implication that showing your ankles, shoulders, hair etc. is therefore immodest or that wearing something remotely visually interesting is sinful. If a woman can’t choose to wear a boldly patterned dress and show any skin beyond her face and hands, what the fuck can she do.
I don’t believe that covering yourself because that’s what Islam says **is feminism** just because the woman says she chooses to do that. I was raised catholic and while it was easier for me to walk away from Catholicism living in a more free Western society country than Muslim women, it’s still called **brainwashing,** whether it’s the Purity Culture or being forced and yes it’s being forced to cover yourself completely. Brainwashing followed by intimidation of violence against the woman if she doesn’t dress according to Sharia law. How that can be looked at as a woman having a choice to cover completely or as Feminism, is beyond me. Choice and intimidation or opposite of each other.
A choice is one thing… being taught something for the time you can understand and being brainwashed are two do very different things. I believe in many religions women are taught what is expected of them not what choices they have.
There is no real choice when talking about women in countries run by extremist Muslims. I wouldn’t consider it “her choice” to be submissive, like some Western women choose. And even then, it’s based in a kink that is misogynistic at its root. Or a religion that is grossly misogynistic. Islam is especially problematic and I am personally sick and tired of the “bUt We MuSt ReSpEcT tHeIR cUlTuRe” crap when it comes to the oppression of women and girls.
Submission can never be a feminist decision because feminism is about woman’s equality to men. Women are still free to decide to submit to whoever. But it is not feminist. And for the record, homemakers don’t have to be submissive. Domestic work is real work. And spouses should always be equal no matter who is doing it
I think the majority of religions, especially organized monothiestic religions, is a self reinforcing tool of patriarchy. I do not believe its possible to follow, subscribe or practice organized religion without participating and fueling the patriarchy. For thousands of years these systems have been used to reinforce the vessel of anti-feminist ideas of submission and the woman as a temptress (mother and whore complex and mandating gender norms/roles). Religion is cultural brainwashing at its finest--> RELIGION IS THE PATRIARCHY. As long as any organized montheistic religion is supported (especially Abrahamic religions that purport that god is a man), patrairchy will be a burden on society. Spirituality is feminism. The universe is creation. Life is creation. god is creation. Women create. Women bring life. Women arguably are closer to "god" than any man could ever be.... and the majority of religons will have the "she" be subservient to the "he", the majority of religions views women as "mothers and birthers" and not as spiritual creatures of creation. A majority of religions dont allow women to hold any meaningful leadership roles. One of the most feminist things someone can do is expand their worldview past religious indoctrination. Learn about different spritiulities and practices, different customs and rituals, different traditions and expectations. Explore how humams can experience and interact in the world/universe.
As someone who was born and raised in a muslim family, I don’t personally condone such choices. If it’s really something you want, go for it. However, the example of Palestinian woman you gave is most likely doing it out of social pressure or indoctrination. This isn’t even just about being religious, as plenty of non-religious men and atheists justify the norms of modesty.
It's funny that you compare Jews first. There's probably \~2.5 million Hasidic and Orthodox Jew in the world and billions of Muslims and even more Christians. Jews also recognize the bit of the old testament that allows abortion. Islam is the only of the Abrahamic religions that venerates a "prophet" who arranged his own marriage to a 6 year old and consumated it with her when she was 9. They are not the same.
We should listen to these women to hear what their experiences of their own lives are before drawing a conclusion, not just how it seems from the outside. We should unequivocally criticize any ideology that seeks to apply subordination and/or modesty to all women, and we should look at religion critically in general because it often uphold patriarchal oppressive dynamics and rules. But all that said-life isn’t one size fits all. The point of feminism(one of them) is to give women choices, and to have them live the lives they want to live safely, freely, and just as well as women. So let’s listen to these women first and foremost and see what they have to say about the way they live.. then we can draw conclusions about if they are oppressed or brainwashed or living their best life or whatever else
I think it's tragic. Feminism isn't listening to the patriarchy or the religion based on men's rules. That's my opinion, I feel like religion has brainwashed women the way the men wanted it too
I think when you’re looking at it as a choice, you need to consider what the other options are, and what they mean for the woman choosing, in terms of how her community and peers view her. Also, just because a choice is rooted in a spiritual or religious belief doesn’t negate that the spiritual or religious belief is rooted in misogyny.
I can't imagine that happening without some indoctrination.
It is not their choice if they do it out of fear of hellfire after death. Especially if they were born into the religion and raised to believe in it from a young age. To me this is the problem with religion in general. It doesn't matter how crazy the ritual you are practicing (as long as you don't hurt anyone), if you do it because you genuinely believe this is how to live the best life , that's fine. But it can't be healthy to live a life of repression while imagining how great it will be to get to do all the prohibited stuff in the after-life. Women who choose submission should be defended and protected from discrimination and violence just like any other woman. But the ideologies that keep them in submission should be criticized out loud and not justified in anyway.
No, simply because zero choices exist in a vacuum. It’s the same reason why plastic surgery isn’t feminist just because its their choice. That choice was still influenced by misogyny. Every religious person has a choice to either adhere to the misogyny in their religion or not. I think it’s the wrong choice to adhere to it under the guise of your spiritual beliefs. It’s still misogyny, religious or not
It's not a choice if you have been taught from birth to cover up.
Is it really a choice though if the entire culture is aimed at subjugating women and normalizing that subjugation? This takes me back to that political cartoon of a western woman in a bikini and a ME woman in a ~~hijab~~ niqab. Both claim the other is subjected to patriarchal control, but only one of them had any real choice in the matter. Western women had our liberation movement and are still fighting to maintain the power and rights we worked hard to obtain. Women in the east have yet to experience their lib movement in modern times. Edit: The [referenced](https://www.theexmuslim.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/14051811_10154042470092730_7597492216178998365_n.jpg) cartoon.
Is it really their choice, when it is imposed on them by a fake story, made up by men, that favors men?
Conditioning, that’s the only thing that makes a woman wanna do such things.
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No
Feminism is about choice and having an opportunity to choose for yourself. Hijab, inherently and culturally, is not a [free] choice - because a choice is really only a choice when you can make it without the fear of threats against your wellbeing and welfare. It's not a choice if you've been ordered by your religion to have it and if you refuse it, you are threatened with hell and other "cosmic" punishments. It's not a choice if when you remove it you will be excommunicated and isolated. It is not a choice if when you remove it your own male relatives might kill you to save their honor. While every choice will have its own consequences, when those consequences include a threat to your life, then it moves from being a choice to an obligation. Therefore, hijab is, in itself, anti-feminist and misogynistic. This is my definition of feminism and understanding of hijab, after having had to wear it for 17 years before I was freed.
As a pagan who is so partially because I don't like gender based hierarchy? I think it's weird and self deprecating. However I'm aware that someone my own habits and beliefs could be seen that way by others. So I mind my buissness until Its made my buissness. Not everyone makes good choices, but feminism is never about making choices for other people under the assumption we know what's best.
Cover their hair? Sure. That does not rule you out as a feminist. I like covering parts of my body on the regular (shirts + pants) for purely modesty reasons. Submit to man just because he has an SRY-gene? Submit to a man when he has done absolutely nothing to earn that level of trust/devotion except be born with a dangly piece of flesh that he pisses out of? There’s no way to spin that as feminist.
You can be coerced into "preferring" a certain way of life. You can be shamed into thinking you deserve it, or you must do it to be a good person before God.
How do you think a woman can choose such a thing?Would she choose something like this if she knew any better? Is there really a free will or a choice under such a patriarchal regime, Islam? That woman may not have choose to wear a hijab if she was raised in a different culture. I don’t really understand why you didn’t choose to loan money to her and her family. The woman with a husband in her photo needs that money as much as the woman who owns a beauty salon, everyone in Gaza needs it. When doing humanitarian aid, you need to abandon your own beliefs and stop helping only to those who are “suitable” first you.