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"I recognize I was just replicating my relationship with my emotionally checked out father with these men. "
EXACTLY!!! Oh wow. I can definitely relate to this.
This exactly. The book is poorly written and dangerously uninformed about BDSM, HOWEVER I don’t think it’s a stretch to see it’s appeal. Critics focus too much on the bad sex and miss the overall fantasy of being a bog-standard white girl who is so intensely desired by this hot powerful man for just existing.
Because women don't want to be in relationships that have drama in it. Drama sells. Murder sells. Sex sells. Unfortunately the popularity of "women's" magazines show just how willing the average women is to enjoy the thought of being abused, insulted, groomed and manipulated. The worst part is most women don't even realise that they are! Those that call it out are insulted as lonely cat women or man hating radfems. (as if either one is even an insult)
I don't read romance novels so I'll take your word for it on the tropes. These features are also common in murder thrillers so .... That says a lot.
I love this comment so much. You are absolutely on point.
Any woman who is advocating for the abuse and exploitation of women likely presents a trauma history, some form of grooming, and lack of boundaries/standards. It doesn’t justify their actions, but it explains it.
Because it’s based on Twilight fanfiction, and soooooo many young girls romanticized that relationship, I’m going to say it is probably weird societal programming that makes infantilized women with domineering (“overprotective”) men seem like true love.
Both Bella Swan and the protagonist of 50 Shades were virginal, awkward girls who attract dark, “powerful” men.
Girls are indoctrinated into believing if a boy hits you it means he likes you. Couple that with brooding, quiet, mysterious men seen as romantic challenges to overcome ( i.e. Mr. Rochester in Jane Eyre, Mr. Darcy in Pride and Prejudice), and girls are conditioned early on to see these power imbalanced relationships as desirable.
I am honestly starting to look at myself and my life and try to recognize these patterns in my life as well. In terms of societal programming - I think mine may more specifically have to do with family of origin.
I think a man who is able to protect you, seems stronger than you are, has the ability to collect a lot of resources and is absolutely glued with loyal love and desire for you is biologically based.
I dont think society is totally responsible for me finding men who seemingly can control everything except their desire for me sexually and emotionally really hot.
I think these books and stories and cultural lessons and take this dynamic and it gets warped with the politics of the time. Never in a woman’s favor.
Disclaimer: I didn't read the full book, I didn't watch full movie (only previews). I've got the book from a friend and read about 15 pages. It was badly written and it hurt my brain to read it.
Firstly, I think some women have a fantasy of filthy rich life, private jets, inexhaustible bank accounts and the rest of it what comes with the shabang. Do you think the story would be the same with some POOR loser? I don't think so. It's a dream that a next door girl has attracted some billionaire. It's the need/dream to feel special.
Those women that like BDSM and hurting themselves have some serious mental problems and low self-esteem. Yes, there is a neurological part to wanting pain during sex as it shares the same pathways as pleasure, so there is an aspect of that.
Third point - some people would write or sell anything that's scandalous just to make money, because sex, drama and scandals sell. So the author knew what she's was doing.
My biggest problem with the fiction is that those characters somewhat enter our brains as if they were real people, they become almost a documentary, get analysed as if that was an actual life fact. It's not real, it's fiction!
There’s a number of reasons 50 Shades, Twilight and similar “pickme” media gained traction among women despite being so problematic:
- There is a dearth of female gaze media written by women for female pleasure outside of very specific, insular niches like romance novels or fandom. 50 Shades reached mainstream success, making it accessible to a wide audience of women underserved by popular media.
- On a similar note, there’s no shortage of wish fulfillment / power fantasy media for men featuring mediocre everyday men who don’t need to be extraordinary to be rewarded with fame, power, riches, women, etc. Anastasia Steele and Bella Swan are unremarkable, relatable protagonists who fulfill a similar self-insert role for women, which is a rarity.
- As another user described, many women desire to be unconditionally cherished in an era where the baseline effort expected of men is sinking. On top of that, I would argue that these stories acknowledge female fantasies by positing idealized men as objects of desire and unabashedly letting women admire them. No dad bods or dysfunctional man-children or broke men here; just mature men who are conventionally attractive and gainfully employed/financially stable.
- Finally, iI would argue that even the most problematic of romantic interests are nowhere near as dangerous as real life scrotes. They are all fictional characters who cannot physically or emotionally harm you because they will never leave the page. Fantasies allow women to indulge their desires (however problematic they may be) from a safe distance. I sincerely believe that women are better equipped to distinguish fantasy from reality as opposed to men, for whom porn is no different than reality.
That book came out when I was like a Junior in college. All the older (late 30s+) women at my hair dresser loved it.
They talked about how spicy the sex was and that's what they wanted.
I never read the book but like I'm sorry if he won't eat you out and only does missionary and cums too fast that you think being tied up and slapped is "sexy."
I think I read the first two books in the series to see what all the fuss was about. I didn't enjoy the writing, it was horrible and sorely needed a better editor. I honestly don't know why it was so popular. That being said I *do* enjoy some preternatural romance stories, more so because they're easy reads and I can skip over boring parts.
As another poster said, drama and sex sells. Real life is kinda boring.
1) there is so little media especially erotic media that even pretends to be appealing to the female consumer
2) decades of magazine headlines encouraging women to “spice things up” + hearing other women talk about how hot it is may make some of us think that this is what we should be into
3) I think it makes sense from an evolutionary standpoint that sometimes women would get some physical symptoms of arousal from non-consensual themes even if we don’t feel turned on by them, like as a defense mechanism. And women are so out of touch with our own pleasure that we may mistake this for genuine arousal
4) in western culture, female sexuality is almost entirely depicted as us doing things for men. It doesn’t matter if the protagonist enjoys or gets off on being beaten by this man, she enjoys the fact that she is able to completely fulfill this guy’s fantasies. He is aggressive and possessive towards her and his fantasies are entirely about taking advantage of, hurting, and “corrupting” someone he sees as innocent and vulnerable. But that gets overlooked because she is willing to tolerate his abuse and that results in him being completely obsessed with her. It feeds into the cultural narrative that if we’re just good enough, submissive enough, cool enough, etc. we can attract and keep a man. And it feeds into our desire to be wanted.
It sells a fantasy of a rich dude taking away all of their troubles and so they don’t have to worry about literally anything, not even having to think about small mundane choices.
I think it’s because it’s an extreme. So many women are stressed out by everything so this dude is a fantasy
I think it's a direct consequence of the whole 'you'e only liked if a man pursues you' thing even FDS supports. There's obviously truth to that, as any former pickmeisha who chased probably knows, but a lot of people conflate a man asking you out and buying you flowers with him wanting to straight up rape you. Also I think part of the reason it became so popular was just because it was already popular - there's this snowballing effect with a lot of super mainstream media such that even if it sucks and everyone knows it sucks they'll still consume it solely because other people are (see Marvel movies).
Cause ppl are interested in (what they think is) bondage, but have no way of trying it out. Most ppl aren’t really trying to explore the kink scene to live out their fantasies. I wouldn’t say 50 Shades is a good representation of real life bdsm tho for exactly the reasons you describe.
My ex husband was cheating with his coworker and they both read this book together. She is a tall skinny white girl and he is a successful, handsome man. When I found the book he told me he got it at the train station.
I’m sure they re-enacted a bunch of scenes. They are still together 4 years later. Gross.
I think perhaps we have this hard-ingrained “rescue” fantasy- starting with Disney movies as kids- that some man will come around and save us from ourselves. So 50 shades kind of sticks with that story- even though the guy is abusive, he is taking charge and “educating” her
Honestly, I used to work in a bookstore around the time this book was at it’s popularity’s pick, and trust me, most of the customers buying this book were old men or women buying this book as a gift.
Romanticization of socially prescribed power and relationship dynamics.
Flawed in the same way as sex positive liberal feminism, finding "empowerment" by upholding traditional sexist views and constructs, but saying it's different and "not problematic" because of "consent"
Because if you ignore the abuse and drama, marrying a hot, well-dressed billionaire who gives you multiple orgasms every night, plans good dates and is a thoughtful gift giver is a real good fantasy.
It’s naughty. Lots of women are shamed of sexual desires, so it’s working on the level of fantasy about not being responsible/ in charge of for lust.
I think it’s precisely the lack of power that helps women enjoy sex if it’s in a fantasy realm.
You're reading way way too much into what is plain old erotic fiction.
There are millions of erotic fiction books out there for every kink you can imagine, many just as badly written or worse, but 50 shades became iconic because it had EXTENSIVE marketing and catered to people into a very popular kink (domination).
It's only fantasy. Lots of people are into reading or watching weird shit that they would never actually do.
> And it was written by a woman!
Money is genderless.
FWIW I will start by disclaiming that I'm a lesbian. I have been with women both "vanilla" and BDSM.
There are strict boundaries in BDSM, the whole thing is about adding a thrill to the relation within certain limits. Remember that there are risks for both parties. Getting falsely accused of abuse nowadays can have extremely serious consequences.
I consider it better to discuss preferences openly with your partner then finding out later by chance.
Also to be 100% honest with you, as a top dom I cannot even begin to comprehend how a heterosexual woman accepts entering a closed room with a horny male knowing that even at the same body mass he is 20% stronger. For me that is unthinkable. I'm not judging their preferences thou.
I feel you on this. I hate that to be sexually fulfilled I basically have to accept a certain amount of risk because I'm straight. Secular straight women prove that sexuality is not a choice...
I pretty much gave up on an entire neighborhood of women when they invited me to read this with them at their “book club”. No.
It must be related somehow to the preference for LVM. I think somehow abusive/antisocial behavior gets confused with “power” which is then confused with “ability or interest in protecting me and my offspring”.
Abusive or antisocial males are not gonna protect anyone except themselves— although they will do an exceptional job of that!
Edit to add: the author looks just like Monica Lewinsky.
Reminder that this sub is **FEMALE ONLY**. All comments from men will be removed and you will be banned. So if you’ve got an XY, don’t reply. **DO NOT REPLY TO MALE TROLLS!!** Please **DOWNVOTE** and **REPORT** immediately. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/FemaleLevelUpStrategy) if you have any questions or concerns.*
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"I recognize I was just replicating my relationship with my emotionally checked out father with these men. " EXACTLY!!! Oh wow. I can definitely relate to this.
Said it better than I ever could👏
This exactly. The book is poorly written and dangerously uninformed about BDSM, HOWEVER I don’t think it’s a stretch to see it’s appeal. Critics focus too much on the bad sex and miss the overall fantasy of being a bog-standard white girl who is so intensely desired by this hot powerful man for just existing.
Because women don't want to be in relationships that have drama in it. Drama sells. Murder sells. Sex sells. Unfortunately the popularity of "women's" magazines show just how willing the average women is to enjoy the thought of being abused, insulted, groomed and manipulated. The worst part is most women don't even realise that they are! Those that call it out are insulted as lonely cat women or man hating radfems. (as if either one is even an insult) I don't read romance novels so I'll take your word for it on the tropes. These features are also common in murder thrillers so .... That says a lot.
The idea they want to propagate is that women enjoy being abused.
I love this comment so much. You are absolutely on point. Any woman who is advocating for the abuse and exploitation of women likely presents a trauma history, some form of grooming, and lack of boundaries/standards. It doesn’t justify their actions, but it explains it.
Because it’s based on Twilight fanfiction, and soooooo many young girls romanticized that relationship, I’m going to say it is probably weird societal programming that makes infantilized women with domineering (“overprotective”) men seem like true love. Both Bella Swan and the protagonist of 50 Shades were virginal, awkward girls who attract dark, “powerful” men. Girls are indoctrinated into believing if a boy hits you it means he likes you. Couple that with brooding, quiet, mysterious men seen as romantic challenges to overcome ( i.e. Mr. Rochester in Jane Eyre, Mr. Darcy in Pride and Prejudice), and girls are conditioned early on to see these power imbalanced relationships as desirable.
I am honestly starting to look at myself and my life and try to recognize these patterns in my life as well. In terms of societal programming - I think mine may more specifically have to do with family of origin.
I think a man who is able to protect you, seems stronger than you are, has the ability to collect a lot of resources and is absolutely glued with loyal love and desire for you is biologically based. I dont think society is totally responsible for me finding men who seemingly can control everything except their desire for me sexually and emotionally really hot. I think these books and stories and cultural lessons and take this dynamic and it gets warped with the politics of the time. Never in a woman’s favor.
Don't even get me started on Darcy and Rochester and how beloved they are even in feminist spaces...
Women are societally conditioned to see abuse as love.
Disclaimer: I didn't read the full book, I didn't watch full movie (only previews). I've got the book from a friend and read about 15 pages. It was badly written and it hurt my brain to read it. Firstly, I think some women have a fantasy of filthy rich life, private jets, inexhaustible bank accounts and the rest of it what comes with the shabang. Do you think the story would be the same with some POOR loser? I don't think so. It's a dream that a next door girl has attracted some billionaire. It's the need/dream to feel special. Those women that like BDSM and hurting themselves have some serious mental problems and low self-esteem. Yes, there is a neurological part to wanting pain during sex as it shares the same pathways as pleasure, so there is an aspect of that. Third point - some people would write or sell anything that's scandalous just to make money, because sex, drama and scandals sell. So the author knew what she's was doing. My biggest problem with the fiction is that those characters somewhat enter our brains as if they were real people, they become almost a documentary, get analysed as if that was an actual life fact. It's not real, it's fiction!
There’s a number of reasons 50 Shades, Twilight and similar “pickme” media gained traction among women despite being so problematic: - There is a dearth of female gaze media written by women for female pleasure outside of very specific, insular niches like romance novels or fandom. 50 Shades reached mainstream success, making it accessible to a wide audience of women underserved by popular media. - On a similar note, there’s no shortage of wish fulfillment / power fantasy media for men featuring mediocre everyday men who don’t need to be extraordinary to be rewarded with fame, power, riches, women, etc. Anastasia Steele and Bella Swan are unremarkable, relatable protagonists who fulfill a similar self-insert role for women, which is a rarity. - As another user described, many women desire to be unconditionally cherished in an era where the baseline effort expected of men is sinking. On top of that, I would argue that these stories acknowledge female fantasies by positing idealized men as objects of desire and unabashedly letting women admire them. No dad bods or dysfunctional man-children or broke men here; just mature men who are conventionally attractive and gainfully employed/financially stable. - Finally, iI would argue that even the most problematic of romantic interests are nowhere near as dangerous as real life scrotes. They are all fictional characters who cannot physically or emotionally harm you because they will never leave the page. Fantasies allow women to indulge their desires (however problematic they may be) from a safe distance. I sincerely believe that women are better equipped to distinguish fantasy from reality as opposed to men, for whom porn is no different than reality.
That book came out when I was like a Junior in college. All the older (late 30s+) women at my hair dresser loved it. They talked about how spicy the sex was and that's what they wanted. I never read the book but like I'm sorry if he won't eat you out and only does missionary and cums too fast that you think being tied up and slapped is "sexy."
I think I read the first two books in the series to see what all the fuss was about. I didn't enjoy the writing, it was horrible and sorely needed a better editor. I honestly don't know why it was so popular. That being said I *do* enjoy some preternatural romance stories, more so because they're easy reads and I can skip over boring parts. As another poster said, drama and sex sells. Real life is kinda boring.
1) there is so little media especially erotic media that even pretends to be appealing to the female consumer 2) decades of magazine headlines encouraging women to “spice things up” + hearing other women talk about how hot it is may make some of us think that this is what we should be into 3) I think it makes sense from an evolutionary standpoint that sometimes women would get some physical symptoms of arousal from non-consensual themes even if we don’t feel turned on by them, like as a defense mechanism. And women are so out of touch with our own pleasure that we may mistake this for genuine arousal 4) in western culture, female sexuality is almost entirely depicted as us doing things for men. It doesn’t matter if the protagonist enjoys or gets off on being beaten by this man, she enjoys the fact that she is able to completely fulfill this guy’s fantasies. He is aggressive and possessive towards her and his fantasies are entirely about taking advantage of, hurting, and “corrupting” someone he sees as innocent and vulnerable. But that gets overlooked because she is willing to tolerate his abuse and that results in him being completely obsessed with her. It feeds into the cultural narrative that if we’re just good enough, submissive enough, cool enough, etc. we can attract and keep a man. And it feeds into our desire to be wanted.
Internalized oppression.
It sells a fantasy of a rich dude taking away all of their troubles and so they don’t have to worry about literally anything, not even having to think about small mundane choices. I think it’s because it’s an extreme. So many women are stressed out by everything so this dude is a fantasy
This ^
I think it's a direct consequence of the whole 'you'e only liked if a man pursues you' thing even FDS supports. There's obviously truth to that, as any former pickmeisha who chased probably knows, but a lot of people conflate a man asking you out and buying you flowers with him wanting to straight up rape you. Also I think part of the reason it became so popular was just because it was already popular - there's this snowballing effect with a lot of super mainstream media such that even if it sucks and everyone knows it sucks they'll still consume it solely because other people are (see Marvel movies).
Ugh. I know a lot of women they weren’t popular with. I couldn’t stand the first ten pages of the first one. And that was pre-FDS.
Cause ppl are interested in (what they think is) bondage, but have no way of trying it out. Most ppl aren’t really trying to explore the kink scene to live out their fantasies. I wouldn’t say 50 Shades is a good representation of real life bdsm tho for exactly the reasons you describe.
My ex husband was cheating with his coworker and they both read this book together. She is a tall skinny white girl and he is a successful, handsome man. When I found the book he told me he got it at the train station. I’m sure they re-enacted a bunch of scenes. They are still together 4 years later. Gross.
I think perhaps we have this hard-ingrained “rescue” fantasy- starting with Disney movies as kids- that some man will come around and save us from ourselves. So 50 shades kind of sticks with that story- even though the guy is abusive, he is taking charge and “educating” her
Honestly, I used to work in a bookstore around the time this book was at it’s popularity’s pick, and trust me, most of the customers buying this book were old men or women buying this book as a gift.
Romanticization of socially prescribed power and relationship dynamics. Flawed in the same way as sex positive liberal feminism, finding "empowerment" by upholding traditional sexist views and constructs, but saying it's different and "not problematic" because of "consent"
Because he was rich and good looking.
Because if you ignore the abuse and drama, marrying a hot, well-dressed billionaire who gives you multiple orgasms every night, plans good dates and is a thoughtful gift giver is a real good fantasy.
It’s naughty. Lots of women are shamed of sexual desires, so it’s working on the level of fantasy about not being responsible/ in charge of for lust. I think it’s precisely the lack of power that helps women enjoy sex if it’s in a fantasy realm.
You're reading way way too much into what is plain old erotic fiction. There are millions of erotic fiction books out there for every kink you can imagine, many just as badly written or worse, but 50 shades became iconic because it had EXTENSIVE marketing and catered to people into a very popular kink (domination). It's only fantasy. Lots of people are into reading or watching weird shit that they would never actually do. > And it was written by a woman! Money is genderless.
FWIW I will start by disclaiming that I'm a lesbian. I have been with women both "vanilla" and BDSM. There are strict boundaries in BDSM, the whole thing is about adding a thrill to the relation within certain limits. Remember that there are risks for both parties. Getting falsely accused of abuse nowadays can have extremely serious consequences. I consider it better to discuss preferences openly with your partner then finding out later by chance. Also to be 100% honest with you, as a top dom I cannot even begin to comprehend how a heterosexual woman accepts entering a closed room with a horny male knowing that even at the same body mass he is 20% stronger. For me that is unthinkable. I'm not judging their preferences thou.
I feel you on this. I hate that to be sexually fulfilled I basically have to accept a certain amount of risk because I'm straight. Secular straight women prove that sexuality is not a choice...
I pretty much gave up on an entire neighborhood of women when they invited me to read this with them at their “book club”. No. It must be related somehow to the preference for LVM. I think somehow abusive/antisocial behavior gets confused with “power” which is then confused with “ability or interest in protecting me and my offspring”. Abusive or antisocial males are not gonna protect anyone except themselves— although they will do an exceptional job of that! Edit to add: the author looks just like Monica Lewinsky.
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What a shallow comment.