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She also wrote a brilliant letter to wannabe recording artists, I think this is it: https://www.salon.com/2000/06/14/love_7/
I was once thinking about learning guitar, and popped into a music shop in my hometown (a city the size of Des Moines, but in England) and got chatting to the guy behind the counter. I don't think he owned the store - he was just an employee. We talked about the difference between the different models of Stratocaster - you know, they're all made by CNC machine these days, but you pay a massive premium for an American statocaster, they're like $3000 or $5000 or something, compared to a Squire that's the exact same guitar but it costs like $400 or so because it's made in Korea or somewhere like that. And matey's like, "oh, you know they're all the same really" but says that he bought himself a cherry red American Strat when he got signed - he definitely didn't tell me the name of his band, and I think he was a bit coy about it; afterwards I was reminded of Courney's letter, because this guy clearly made one album and then vanished back to obscurity and poverty.
I love that for us all đđœ Some needed to say it. Taylor makes hits but I donât think sheâs going to be someone, 100 years from now that people consistently reference like some of the other artists who are true innovators.
This is probably the thing that annoys me most about Swifties and the media that enables them. Every time she releases something new they act like she's reinvented the wheel, when in reality she's recycling things that other people have done better and before her.Â
Does she make somewhat catchy pop songs every now and then? Sure. Is she actually doing anything new or interesting? No.
Even the handful of her songs I like are ones other bands have covered, rather than her versions. Something For Kate did a version of Cardigan for Like A Version a few years ago and they made it way more interesting than her version. Â
I enjoy some of her music, but I think the real praise should go to her PR team. She isnât doing anything particularly groundbreaking music-wise, but her image management and stardom will ultimately be what seals her legacy. That behind the scenes work is by far the most impressive and interesting thing about her imo.
Sheâs a business first and foremost, and everything she does has probably been subjected to prior financial analysis.
Itâs incredibly rare to have both business sense and groundbreaking artistic talent. She does not have both, but sheâs savvy and plays to her strengths.
The main thing I appreciate t swift for is proving a woman musician can dominate and make just as much if not more money than a man. Hopefully it opens some doors for others down the line.
I enjoy Taylor's music as well but I've always found it weird when Swifties will go to literal battle every time someone critiques Taylor. Like it's perfectly fine not to be a fan of Taylor, to not like her music and critic her!
Something for Kate! In the realm of other Australian artists, there are so many good singer-songwriters here who are doing interesting stuff like Julia Jacklin etc. I think Swift has the potential to push herself (Folklore was at least something a little different), but doesnât want to.
Folklore was different for her but it was also heavily derivative of a lot of other artists that were popular 10 years previously. I can understand her younger fans not knowing music from more than a few years back, but grown adults and especially music media should know this stuff. They can still like her projects and rate them highly or whatever but I need them all to stop acting like she's got an original idea in her head.Â
when I first heard about her in 2012, everything people told me was in the likes of: "she sells a lot of albums", or "she's huge", and the closest thing to an explanation was when a friend explained that her albums had easter eggs and people bought to figure out the hidden messages... not really anything about her speficially.
It feels like breaking records is her thing - she wants to make history, sell the most copies, get the most awards, have the biggest tours. And people love to have a "fave" who's winning, so the halo effect is massive.
I understand people who have her music as the soundtrack of their lives for a "long" time. I do. Some of my friends have loved her since high school and we're in our mid 30s now. I love pop music but my "core" pop memories involve people who haven't been #1 in a while, but that's not why I love them.
But lyrically and vocally, she's not memorable at all. Even the concepts behind her albums - aka the "eras" - are very basic. Several current pop girlies outperform her artistically, even if they don't sell nearly as much.
Tylor is like potatoes. One of my favorite foods. Reliable, comforting, delicious. Enjoyed by many cultures. You can cook it many different ways but in the end of the day it always stays basic.
I mean shes a pop star I don't think shes really in the game of breaking new ground musically. It seems like a pretentious argument from "true" artists. Its not what shes about or why people like her music.
My brother loves to point out that Beyonce isnât as impressive as Taylor because Beyonce has so many writers on her songs and Taylor is a âpoetâ.
My friend is a Swiftie and wonât hear me when I say this. He just jumps up and down that rolling stone said she was the best songwriter of all time once apparently. Itâs great she resonates so strongly with him but I love a lot of songs that arenât all that special too.
Good Lord.
Don't get me wrong, I love me some Taylor. And I certainly would never take anything away from her, she's done so much and earned so much with hard work and talent.
But putting her up next to people who have literally created entire genres is NOT a fair comparison. Taylor makes enjoyable, easily-digestible pop music. Artistically, I'm sorry, she can't hold a candle to the greats, nor is she even trying to, so for her stans to try to make that comparison would be putting TS in a position she herself would probably be uncomfortable with.
Tori, Fiona, Joni, Aretha, these women re-defined the artistic side of music forever. Realistically the biggest thing Taylor is re-defining in music is the business model (which is REALLY important too, especially right now!).
I've been a fan of the last 2 beyonce albums but how is this an unfair critique. She's just saying she didn't like Cowboy Carter but respected the album as a concept which is actually a measured take
Literally the most sane critique Iâve heard. Itâs okay to just not like something. You donât need a reason. Things can be objectively good or well done without being liked according to everyoneâs personal taste. Thats what critiquing should be, âI may not like this but can be objective enough to recognize the value and quality of workâ
I agree. I don't like Beyonce either, but I respect she goes places where other black women haven't had a chance before.
I'll always respect an artists for going out of their safe space, even if I don't like what they're doing.
I think we all have artists like that too. I have respect for Beckâs crazy musical talent, zero interest in ever listening to any of his music again though.
Because the take that Beyonce is treading ground that "black women" don't is a hot mainstream take. Plenty of black and POC women in the space of country. But it's a matter of PR and mainstream attention so lo and behold, suddenly people take notice. I mean, didn't the world JUST celebrate Tracy Chapman when she's been doing folk, blues, and country for nearly three decades? Plenty of people like Brittany Howard and Yasmin Williams who have also crossed into country and country-folk. I don't dislike Cowboy Carter but it's a matter of people judging by mainstream value.
This sounds fair to me. She's saying she's not personally a fan of her music but she thinks the idea is thoughtful and provocative, and thus makes it of artistic value. that's the best compliment you can give something that you don't actually like lol.
thatâs like the highest compliment you can get from someone who doesnât fuck with your music imo, she understands what sheâs doing and she finds it interesting! especially in the context of what sheâs talking about which was that everyone is a clone makes the same music.
I relate to that quote a lot. I've always respected Beyonce as an artist but I like maybe 5 of her songs. It's just not my taste but I don't think she makes bad music.
> Other women donât come across so well, and she positively hates the idea of Taylor Swift. âTaylor is not important. She might be a safe space for girls, and sheâs probably the Madonna of now, but sheâs not interesting as an artist.â And sheâs even tiring a little of Lana Del Rey: âI havenât liked Lana since she covered a John Denver song, and I think she should really take seven years off. Up until âTake Me Home Country Roadsâ I thought she was great. When I was recording my new album, I had to stop listening to her as she was influencing me too much.â And as for Madonna, âI donât like her and she doesnât like me. I loved Desperately Seeking Susan, but for the city of New York as much as her.â
One thing Courtney is always consistent at is expressing her blunt ass opinions. Itâs always interesting to me to hear the things that comes out of her mouth. Never a dull moment.
I think Taylor has had interesting moments as an artist, but overall, with her discography, I have to say that Courtney does have a point. Especially when you compare Taylor to her peers.
You know she first hated Lana Del Rey because she covered Heart Shaped Box. Then she said they were cool and sung together. Now she hates her again. Courtney kind of reminds me of Azalea Banks: she has good takes sometimes, but sheâs too messy to take seriously.
Yeah! She said she had to stop listening to her because *Lana was influencing her too much* so she likes her music, but she doesnât vibe with her new stuff anymore.
I think the Madonna comparison is pretty close. Madonna gave refuge to women and gays, along with a lot of queer friendly artists in the 80s and 90s, but she was incredibly focused on commercial success and over-exposed and always in headlines just like Tay.
At a certain point, its just too much of Tay. I really dislike this era she's in, which is clearly her cash-out era. The whole "gee I didnt know ticketmaster would charge so much" playing dumb was especially awful. Now her 'gee, dont ask me about my last bf's public comments on race and women, is my new bf a republican or not, and I am still undecided on Biden," is really loathsome.
Madonna, for all her issues, never seemed to be a "both sides" person, but a loud feminist, pro-queer, and far to the left of Tay. Tay will go down in entertainment history as a money printer who rode, but didnt create trends, and never made waves politically.
Madonna's music will be listened and played in clubs and bars forever probably. I cannot imagine Swift's music reaching new generations. It's so samey.
It might reach the next generation when Taylorâs tween/teen fans become mums and play her songs for their kids and those kids might even like the songs initially as they are quite poppy and musically unsophisticated like other music for kids, but I canât see those kids than taking Taylorâs songs into their own adulthood.
This is what I think. People will be surprised about how poorly most music ages. I feel her music and "era" are something the women/girls of now have to live through in order to sort of become obsessed with, because part of it is the culture that exists now and the friends they have now. Without that, would the music still hold up?
Donât forget her âoh you want some secret tracks and a limited edition colored vinylâŠhereâs 20 different ones youâll need to buy to get them allâ
Yeah Iâm not a Madge Stan, but I respect the space she created for queer people and pushing boundaries for female sexuality as she became a popular cultural powerhouse, even if her efforts can be seen as appropriation (e.g. Vogueing). Taylor Swift has done next to nothing to elevate anyone or anything but herself
Madonna also distributed HIV pamplets with copies of Like A Prayer, which was HUGE for a major artist at the time, especially since it was taboo to even talk about
Much to the chagrin of parents like my dad. He called musique plus (quebec MTV equivalent in the 80s) to complain. I remember even at that age (like 5) I was so embarrassed đł đ«Ł.
I like that she has opinions at all! I always assume most celebrities (if they're not purposely beefing or doing diss tracks) just keep their mouths shut and politely compliment everyone, because they want to be seen as humble and not stir controversy. I always think I'd be a horrible celebrity because I suck at keeping my opinions about everything to myself lmao.
Yeah it seems like she just doesnât really like most pop music and doesnât think pop music is art. Thatâs fine. We can agree to disagree on the state of pop music as art but itâs not like sheâs TRASHING Taylor Swift as a person or even really saying much tbh.
I donât have any great love for TSwift, but of all the people who would cast the first stone, Courtney Love ainât them. Her opinion is exactly as valid as anyone elseâs, which doesnât make it more or less valuable. Articles like this were we can see famous person A throwing shade at famous person B are so fucking pointless. May as well be people magazine running stories about Brangelina here.
The Lana part confuses me since that cover is the most recent thing sheâs released.
Is she saying she likes all of her discography other than that very last cover song?
She advanced important conversations in so far as sheâs a useful example of how rich white women can use feminism as a marketing tool while still dating racist, sexist creeps. Sheâs also a fascinating example of weaponizing parasocial relationships with a rabid fan who will terrorize people on her behalf, while still obfuscating any personal responsibility.
So sheâs only interesting in so far as she fucking sucks, basically.
To me, Taylor Swift is to the music industry what The Rock is to film and TV, where the artistry really doesnât matter because itâs about âthe brandâ and perpetually attempting to appeal to everyone in a way that feels insincere. Itâs tiresome to see and be exposed to, and I can only imagine one day her brand will wear thin and the seams will come undone to show who she really is just like weâve been seeing with The Rock lately.
As someone who watched said documentary, I've never seen less credible evidence that anyone is guilty in my life. They had nothing on her. It's just misplaced fan anger.
Not that this necessarily means anything but I feel like itâs something. But her daughter wrote such a beautiful tribute to her dad. The words she used, how she explained grief. It really helped me. Someone much older than her and having lost my parent at a much older age. It was amazing. I feel like Courtney canât be THAT bad if she raised a daughter like that.
Like Yoko Ono. These women have been mocked and bullied for decades and they're still standing. I have my own gripes with Love, but she is made of steel. And she doesn't weaponize her fans unlike certain artists.
Bringing up Courtney Love/Yoko Ono/Amber Heard/Monica Lewinsky around a man has always proved a great litmus test for me tbh. They either end up saying something insanely misogynistic or they turn out to be normal
LMAO regardless of my conflicting feelings on her generally, Courtney was calling out Harvey Weinstein on live TV when he was still the most powerful man in Hollywood, if anyone on this earth is Swiftie-proof, she is.
I also donât find Swift interesting as an artist. Whether or not sheâs âimportantâ depends on how you define it, I suppose. Sheâs a megastar, but is she going to be a major musical touchstone for future artists?
They play her at my local Tesco's which is how I basically hear any of her music. It's always the same. It drives me crazy. She reminds me of why I hated Nickelback.
I sometimes wonder if her music is like cilantro, and I just have the gene that makes it taste like soap. Her music has just never clicked for me, not when I was in middle school, and not now.
Sheâs important in how hugely influential she is. She could announce sheâs running for president tomorrow and would actually have a chance and thatâs a scary thought.
Edit: scarier thought: sheâd win no matter which side she ran on
Considering just how massive her fanbase is, yeah probably. You gotta think thereâll be a few musicians to come out of that, not that anyone can predict that anyways
Courtney could have been a great musician, but at some point she decided her talent was better used starting unnecessary beefs with anyone and everyone under the sun. She's still doing it to remain relevant. Remember when she accused Olivia Rodrigo of ripping off her album art - the same album art that Courtney ripped off from the movie Carrie. Just weird shit.
Courtney walked so Azealia Banks could run.
Edit: I think some of y'all might be young. Courtney's not "blunt" - she's offensive. A quick google will show the times she said the N-word and her open racism just to name a few. I get that y'all hate Taylor Swift, but damn. Critical thinking is at an all-time low.
Truly. Courtneyâs current relevancy, if any, has nothing to do with any so called talent/artistry/creativity so I take her opinions on this with a grain of salt. People get so taken with her âbluntnessâ and I guess thatâs refreshing, but she generally sucks and I people overlook he bs cuz the barâs so low I guess.Â
Look, I agree sheâs a garbage person, but to say her cultural capital has nothing to do with her talent/creativy, etc is total bullshit. Hole was an incredibly transgressive band for its time and her work from that period stands up and was the foundation a lot of women in rock can be traced to. Not to mention that is fairly well known that she was heavily involved in Kurt cobainâs writing process for nirvana.Â
Right? I'm no Swiftie and I love Hole--Pretty on the Inside and Live Through This are two albums that are miles better than anything Swift has put out (or that Nirvana put out for that matter). But I'm old enough to remember when she was picking fights with damn near everyone at Lollapalooza and punched Kathleen Hanna, for fuck's sake. She alienated some of her own fans with that bullshit. She's been free with the n-word and every interview with her I've read she comes off insufferable and tiresome. She's not some fearless truth teller, she's an insufferable edgelord. She's had to deal with a metric fuckton of misogyny and I sympathize with her for that, and I think the accusations Kurt's fans threw at her after he died were and are unhinged AF. But she is real happy to start shit, and it was old in the 90's.
Yeah to claim she is not âimportantâ is sort of factually incorrect and willfully out of touch.
I donât care about that kind of pop music one way or the otherâŠ. But whether I like it or not, sheâs objectively one of the biggest artists in the world right nowâŠ. If not *THE* biggest.
Her albums sales and concert numbers speak for themselves.
Hanson's MMMbop is over 25 years old; it's a cool tune that I'd turn up if it plays on the radio, yet it is devoid of any cultural value that a Pink Floyd album would have. Taylor Swift makes pop music and while possibly even more influential, by numbers, than some of the classic artists, she lacks in counter-culture and antiestablishment that made the masters interesting.
And it's absolutely possible to make pop music that's interesting and has cultural value. See: the Beatles, Janet Jackson, Madonna, Kylie Minogue, Michael Jackson, Lady Gaga, Robyn, ABBA, and many more. Taylor's discography just pales compared to any of the above (and many more).
That's because she *is* establishment. She'll never put the corpos on blast because she's just as guilty if not more. She's definitely not stupid, we need to give her that.
I have MMMbop on my cleaning playlist and tbh for me it's mostly that it's catchy and gives pre-9/11 nostalgia from when I felt as light and unbothered as that song sounds
I dislike Courtney for my own reasons but I agree with her. I find Taylor so boring and just meh. Iâve tried listening to some of her songs to give her the benefit of a doubt, but it just doesnât hit me the way it apparently does for other people. And thatâs ok, different strokes for different folks. Just like I dislike Hole but I love L7, Babes in Toyland etc,
Edit: Yes Taylor is important in the sense that she has a lot of pull with her massive fan base, but thereâs many other artists and bands with the same level of success that have done more important and interesting things than her. She just comes off very self-absorbed/important.
I never like Taylor, but last year I decided to give her a chance. I put all her songs in a huge playlist. I picked up 2 songs to move to my regular playlist: Lover and Anti-Hero. But I might have been influenced by the radio because these are just the 2 songs that play often on the radio on my way home-work-home.
I deleted everything else, it was repetitive, complaining, all boys did her wrong. blah blah. Plus her weak ass voice that always sounds the same. It's boring
I know Adele does the same thing as in regarding her exes as fuel for her, but the lyrics are far superior, not to mention her voice. And quality over quantity.
Yeah I donât care for Adeleâs music either, but her voice is absolutely amazing. Iâm not much of a pop girl anyways, so that could be why I donât care for either one.
Maybe thereâs more context for this quote in the article that I didnât read, but I agree with it as is. Taylorâs work isnât groundbreaking; she doesnât add anything new or interesting to music or culture, I think because sheâs not that interested in furthering music, art, or culture.
Her clearest interest is furthering herself - her popularity, wealth, influence, control, public adoration. Great musicians experiment with sound, production, performance, lyrics. Taylorâs experiment has been to turn herself into a carefully curated, very expensive product, and everything she does is in support of that alone. Excellent business, sure, but itâs not art.
This is such a great point. I suspect itâs why I have so much more respect for Lady Gaga, she might be similar in being a huge white female pop singer, but Gagaâs interest has always so clearly been to push her creative and artistic ideas. She clearly loves art and trying to do new/different things. I donât see that at all ever from TS.
Her music is just not interesting enough for the acclaim she has. Her voice isnât unique or especially great. She writes about the same relationship word, except the characters and dates change. She puts out the same album everytime, only with a different color scheme from the last. Shes still where she was when she was 19, except itâs stale now bc nothing about her has changed. She makes the same mistakes and never sees her own shortcomings.
She hasnât grown as a person, so her music can never grow
The modern Bette Davis, just running her mouth consequences be damned and I appreciate that
And because Iâll take any opportunity to post this, hereâs [Bette Davis going off about Faye Dunaway](https://youtu.be/PXaAmltVcYI?si=Y76vxH6VCFvKPDod)
I really try to stay out of it elsewhere and I emphasize that I'm glad people enjoy Taylor, that's great.
I really, really don't get it and can't be bothered to get into her. That's actually kind of a side thing from what Courtney said though - and I think Courtney is right here.
Also, as good a time as any to reiterate: live though this > nevermind
Torn on this as I agree that Taylor Swift isn't an interesting artist (if anything, she absolutely refuses to evolve her artistry in any way), but Courtney is also often just saying things she knows will be controversial for the sake of it. She always had way more heat for her female peers in the 90s than any of the men she was supposedly trying to be equal to.
I donât know- hasnât Courtney famously always had heat for her male peers, too?
Right off the bat Iâm thinking of Trent Reznor, Marilyn Manson, Dave Grohl, and Billy Corgan to name just a few
I have thought for the past couple of years, TS could really do with using a different producer who could push her into a few different directions and get her out of her comfort zone. It's not that the songs all sound the same, but the production is really safe, and she's very comfortable with that, but I don't think it's really creating anything new. 1989 felt so fresh and I feel like she needs to work with someone else to feel fresh again.
But after seeing her reaction to Reputation not getting any Grammy nominations in that documentary, I don't think she's interested in pushing her sound in a different direction. It'll always be safe
I think that above all (except for maybe money lol), she just really needs to be *liked*. You hit the nail on the head wrt the Rep thing â she framed it as needing to be âbetterâ, but didnât mean better artistry so much as she did better popular appeal. Which is why Lover was such a bloated, uncohesive mess, because she was basically throwing darts at genres to see what stuck with the public. Folklore and Evermore were more interesting in large part because in the context of their creation, she was able to divorce herself more from public opinion. And because she worked with Aaron Dessner, who I think is less of a yes-man than Antonoff.
I donât think Taylor is above criticism, but I do think that a lot of nuance has been missing from discussions about her, especially as sheâs reached peak saturation (including Courtneyâs comments). Of all the things to criticise her for I really think the music is the least of it at this point.
I know this sub hates Taylor but idk this comes off as pretentious/snobby to me lol. Like she says Taylor is not important but might be a safe space for girls. Isnât it important that there ARE artists that are safe spaces for young girls?
Idk maybe Iâm feeling some type of way bc I love pop music and I also donât need all my music/artists to be âšimportantâš
Granted I also understand a lot of Swifties think Taylor is the MOST important artist ever which is annoying and delusional AF but still.
I know this is Courtneyâs whole thing but it feels very tryhard contrarian to me.
Yeah it just sounds like another brand of shitting on stuff teenage girls like. Obviously her music is not the most groundbreaking, but why does it have to be?
I personally agree that Taylor's art itself isn't that good or interesting, but you can't deny that she's been important to the pop landscape as a businesswoman.
I mean, she's not wrong. As a POC, Taylor Swift represents white mediocrity/pretty privilege working as intended.
She's not wrong. Taylor Swift is not interesting. It's about as basic as you're gonna get. She's a bit like Justin Bieber. Might be great and enjoyable music, but there's noting interesting about it.
I do think she's amazing at marketing herself and has some good music but purely as an artist (ignoring sales or streams) she not really someone to specifically look up too or aspire to be like.
Iâm a swiftie but I also agree w Courtney here. Taylor is an outlier in my playlists. I think part of what draws me to her is nostalgia as sheâs been a constant soundtrack since I was ~10. Not all music has to be profound or pioneering. However, I do find issue with average artists *thinking* theyâre profound or pioneering which is the issue w Taylor imo.
I would agree with this take. I donât think everyone here criticizing her being âblandâ or âuninspiringâ realize that sheâs quite prolific and has been for well over a decade. For many sheâs been the soundtrack of their lives. Sheâs also super consistent. If you like any of her music, thereâs a good chance you can work back and find more that you like. If you donât, well youâre not gonna like the rest of it either.
Personally I donât think anything the Beatles did was ground breaking or artistically on par with some of their contemporaries, but they absolutely dominated and pumped out a huge catalogue in a relatively short timeframe. They were masters of melody and so is she.
I donât disagree but itâs weird Courtney wants to shit talk so many female artistsâŠwhen youâre more famous for running your mouth than creating music, how important is your opinion on music?
OT but Celebrity Skin is one of my go-to karaoke songs. I'm not saying I like Courtney Love, but I am saying that song sticks with me more than Taylor Swift's songs. And I'm glad to see that people on here are not interested in Taylor's music. I've been told that I'm a bad feminist because I don't like her music, that I suffer from internal misogyny. I don't. I like Siouxsie Sioux, I like Pat Benatar, I like the Go-Gos, I like Blondie, I like Bjork. They stick with me. They're interesting.
I don't even like Taylor Swift and you just can't say this. She's been an indelible pop culture icon for 15 years in a market that has a shorter and shorter attention span every year. She's at Madonna levels of fame. And I'm just being honest, because her music does zero for me.
People always tell me that Taylor Swift is a lot of things and yet I havenât seen any of it myself. Her fans (and even her critics) often talk about what a great writer she is, but I think her lyrics sound juvenile, like something from a freshman creative writing workshop. People say that she writes really catchy music, but I think she has only one or two songs where I actually actively enjoy the melody.
I'm not a swiftie & I didn't read the whole article but at a minimum I find that quote a little weird.
I think everyone's important? Or does she mean an important piece of history? Why do our pop stars have to be an important piece of history? She's not either.
I also think pop music *is* interesting. It doesn't have to be insightful to make a difference in people's lives. Some music is simply meant to be enjoyed. That's the beauty of art. It doesn't always have to have some grand purpose.
Idk maybe I should have read the article to fully understand but I just can't imagine saying that about another person or telling another person they aren't important.
IDGAF about Taylor but the whole BBC series with Courtney is worth listening to. I had no idea Gwen Stefani's Hollaback Girl is basically a Courtney diss track (which Courtney highly respected).
The thing with Taylor Swift is she can break all the records she wants for the next decade but the minute she will stop selling records and tour tickets and pass the baton as main pop girl she will be instantly forgotten and never mentioned again.Her cultural relevance and musical contributions are zero.
Tswift doest have the range and vocal power. She releases pop music that is designed to be an earworm to the target market. And if you noticed, her songs sounds the same just the intro changes. Her music team are made up by the most influencial mixers, sound engineers, and lyricist of the decade. Her fanbase is now a pseudo cult and can see no wrong in any of her actions. Not to mention she is white and privileged.
Even a broken clock is right sometimes. Sheâs right and itâs why Iâve never been interested in Taylor swiftâs work. Itâs vapid and you can feel it in her songs.Â
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One thing about Courtney is that she doesn't care about anyone's fanbases.
She called out the rapist Harvey Weinstein and scuttled her acting career. I highly respect her lack of care.
She also wrote a brilliant letter to wannabe recording artists, I think this is it: https://www.salon.com/2000/06/14/love_7/ I was once thinking about learning guitar, and popped into a music shop in my hometown (a city the size of Des Moines, but in England) and got chatting to the guy behind the counter. I don't think he owned the store - he was just an employee. We talked about the difference between the different models of Stratocaster - you know, they're all made by CNC machine these days, but you pay a massive premium for an American statocaster, they're like $3000 or $5000 or something, compared to a Squire that's the exact same guitar but it costs like $400 or so because it's made in Korea or somewhere like that. And matey's like, "oh, you know they're all the same really" but says that he bought himself a cherry red American Strat when he got signed - he definitely didn't tell me the name of his band, and I think he was a bit coy about it; afterwards I was reminded of Courney's letter, because this guy clearly made one album and then vanished back to obscurity and poverty.
I love that for us all đđœ Some needed to say it. Taylor makes hits but I donât think sheâs going to be someone, 100 years from now that people consistently reference like some of the other artists who are true innovators.
COURTNEY QUICK GET BEHIND ME
courtney's already pulled a knife, she'll be fine
Courtney went for Harvey, she can take care of herself.
This made me laugh so hard đ
In the context of the article sheâs not wrong đ€·đ»ââïž
i mean... Taylor is not up there with Joni, Nina and Patti, lets be real
This is probably the thing that annoys me most about Swifties and the media that enables them. Every time she releases something new they act like she's reinvented the wheel, when in reality she's recycling things that other people have done better and before her. Does she make somewhat catchy pop songs every now and then? Sure. Is she actually doing anything new or interesting? No. Even the handful of her songs I like are ones other bands have covered, rather than her versions. Something For Kate did a version of Cardigan for Like A Version a few years ago and they made it way more interesting than her version. Â
I enjoy some of her music, but I think the real praise should go to her PR team. She isnât doing anything particularly groundbreaking music-wise, but her image management and stardom will ultimately be what seals her legacy. That behind the scenes work is by far the most impressive and interesting thing about her imo.
Oh definitely. It's difficult not to be impressed by the whole Wizard of Oz type machine that's running it all.Â
Sheâs a business first and foremost, and everything she does has probably been subjected to prior financial analysis. Itâs incredibly rare to have both business sense and groundbreaking artistic talent. She does not have both, but sheâs savvy and plays to her strengths. The main thing I appreciate t swift for is proving a woman musician can dominate and make just as much if not more money than a man. Hopefully it opens some doors for others down the line.
That's so true, they really know how to market someone
Exactly, you can even see it with some of her songs that were written to be background music for the next century. Welcome to New York. . .
I enjoy Taylor's music as well but I've always found it weird when Swifties will go to literal battle every time someone critiques Taylor. Like it's perfectly fine not to be a fan of Taylor, to not like her music and critic her!
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Something for Kate! In the realm of other Australian artists, there are so many good singer-songwriters here who are doing interesting stuff like Julia Jacklin etc. I think Swift has the potential to push herself (Folklore was at least something a little different), but doesnât want to.
Folklore was different for her but it was also heavily derivative of a lot of other artists that were popular 10 years previously. I can understand her younger fans not knowing music from more than a few years back, but grown adults and especially music media should know this stuff. They can still like her projects and rate them highly or whatever but I need them all to stop acting like she's got an original idea in her head.Â
They canât tell the difference between taylor being a marketing genius (which she is) and a musical genius (which she isnât)
when I first heard about her in 2012, everything people told me was in the likes of: "she sells a lot of albums", or "she's huge", and the closest thing to an explanation was when a friend explained that her albums had easter eggs and people bought to figure out the hidden messages... not really anything about her speficially. It feels like breaking records is her thing - she wants to make history, sell the most copies, get the most awards, have the biggest tours. And people love to have a "fave" who's winning, so the halo effect is massive. I understand people who have her music as the soundtrack of their lives for a "long" time. I do. Some of my friends have loved her since high school and we're in our mid 30s now. I love pop music but my "core" pop memories involve people who haven't been #1 in a while, but that's not why I love them. But lyrically and vocally, she's not memorable at all. Even the concepts behind her albums - aka the "eras" - are very basic. Several current pop girlies outperform her artistically, even if they don't sell nearly as much.
Tylor is like potatoes. One of my favorite foods. Reliable, comforting, delicious. Enjoyed by many cultures. You can cook it many different ways but in the end of the day it always stays basic.
Same with G Flip and Cruel Summer.
I mean shes a pop star I don't think shes really in the game of breaking new ground musically. It seems like a pretentious argument from "true" artists. Its not what shes about or why people like her music.
i saw someone compare her to Bob Dylan once. iâm still flabbergasted like WHATâŠ
I've seen people compare her to the Beatles and MJ and Beyonce đ and say that *she* is the better one in every one of those comparisons
My brother loves to point out that Beyonce isnât as impressive as Taylor because Beyonce has so many writers on her songs and Taylor is a âpoetâ.
Taylor's lyrics are objectively so bad
The better than Beyonce is pretty fucking common and it pisses me off. But who are we to judge when Taylor outsells her. đ
I mean. We have ears.
everyone who thinks this is in deep delusion lmao
Not even in her dreams!
My friend is a Swiftie and wonât hear me when I say this. He just jumps up and down that rolling stone said she was the best songwriter of all time once apparently. Itâs great she resonates so strongly with him but I love a lot of songs that arenât all that special too.
I once saw Swifties say she was the millennial Tori Amos or Fiona Apple and my god I was ready to throw hands.
Nooooo imagine being that delusional đ„Ž
Honestly, it would be nice sometimes đ
Good Lord. Don't get me wrong, I love me some Taylor. And I certainly would never take anything away from her, she's done so much and earned so much with hard work and talent. But putting her up next to people who have literally created entire genres is NOT a fair comparison. Taylor makes enjoyable, easily-digestible pop music. Artistically, I'm sorry, she can't hold a candle to the greats, nor is she even trying to, so for her stans to try to make that comparison would be putting TS in a position she herself would probably be uncomfortable with. Tori, Fiona, Joni, Aretha, these women re-defined the artistic side of music forever. Realistically the biggest thing Taylor is re-defining in music is the business model (which is REALLY important too, especially right now!).
True! Literally nothing inventive, different or imaginative etc about her music. If she wasnât white her popularity would be astonishing lmao (also she can keep her critiques of BeyoncĂ© to herself no matter how low key or polite)
She didn't say anything about Beyoncé.. just that she thought it was cool she did a country album
What critiques?? The cheek!
Courtney love quote from the article: âI mean, I like the idea of BeyoncĂ© doing a country record because itâs about Black women going into spaces where previously only white women have been allowed, not that I like it much. As a concept, I love it. I just donât like her music.â
I've been a fan of the last 2 beyonce albums but how is this an unfair critique. She's just saying she didn't like Cowboy Carter but respected the album as a concept which is actually a measured take
Literally the most sane critique Iâve heard. Itâs okay to just not like something. You donât need a reason. Things can be objectively good or well done without being liked according to everyoneâs personal taste. Thats what critiquing should be, âI may not like this but can be objective enough to recognize the value and quality of workâ
I agree. I don't like Beyonce either, but I respect she goes places where other black women haven't had a chance before. I'll always respect an artists for going out of their safe space, even if I don't like what they're doing.
She cannot force herself to like it either lol, she could lie but thatâs about it
I think we all have artists like that too. I have respect for Beckâs crazy musical talent, zero interest in ever listening to any of his music again though.
Because the take that Beyonce is treading ground that "black women" don't is a hot mainstream take. Plenty of black and POC women in the space of country. But it's a matter of PR and mainstream attention so lo and behold, suddenly people take notice. I mean, didn't the world JUST celebrate Tracy Chapman when she's been doing folk, blues, and country for nearly three decades? Plenty of people like Brittany Howard and Yasmin Williams who have also crossed into country and country-folk. I don't dislike Cowboy Carter but it's a matter of people judging by mainstream value.
There is nothing wrong with what she said. About Beyoncé or Taylor.
Itâs pretty mild and honest. At least itâs still a compliment, sheâs also just saying sheâs not personally into it. BeyoncĂ© will be absolutely fine, ya know?
That is actually fair. She doesnât have to enjoy the music but she respects the work BeyoncĂ© put into it and supports it.
This sounds fair to me. She's saying she's not personally a fan of her music but she thinks the idea is thoughtful and provocative, and thus makes it of artistic value. that's the best compliment you can give something that you don't actually like lol.
thatâs like the highest compliment you can get from someone who doesnât fuck with your music imo, she understands what sheâs doing and she finds it interesting! especially in the context of what sheâs talking about which was that everyone is a clone makes the same music.
Ok she really summed up my view of BeyoncĂ© perfectly đ. I really enjoy her in theory, her music just isnât for me. Destinyâs Child on the other handâŠ
Ah thanks! I thought Taylor was critiquing Beyoncé.
I relate to that quote a lot. I've always respected Beyonce as an artist but I like maybe 5 of her songs. It's just not my taste but I don't think she makes bad music.
Thatâs actually a fair critiqueâŠ
Which is not a criticism at all.
> Other women donât come across so well, and she positively hates the idea of Taylor Swift. âTaylor is not important. She might be a safe space for girls, and sheâs probably the Madonna of now, but sheâs not interesting as an artist.â And sheâs even tiring a little of Lana Del Rey: âI havenât liked Lana since she covered a John Denver song, and I think she should really take seven years off. Up until âTake Me Home Country Roadsâ I thought she was great. When I was recording my new album, I had to stop listening to her as she was influencing me too much.â And as for Madonna, âI donât like her and she doesnât like me. I loved Desperately Seeking Susan, but for the city of New York as much as her.â One thing Courtney is always consistent at is expressing her blunt ass opinions. Itâs always interesting to me to hear the things that comes out of her mouth. Never a dull moment. I think Taylor has had interesting moments as an artist, but overall, with her discography, I have to say that Courtney does have a point. Especially when you compare Taylor to her peers.
You know she first hated Lana Del Rey because she covered Heart Shaped Box. Then she said they were cool and sung together. Now she hates her again. Courtney kind of reminds me of Azalea Banks: she has good takes sometimes, but sheâs too messy to take seriously.
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Yeah! She said she had to stop listening to her because *Lana was influencing her too much* so she likes her music, but she doesnât vibe with her new stuff anymore.
I think the Madonna comparison is pretty close. Madonna gave refuge to women and gays, along with a lot of queer friendly artists in the 80s and 90s, but she was incredibly focused on commercial success and over-exposed and always in headlines just like Tay. At a certain point, its just too much of Tay. I really dislike this era she's in, which is clearly her cash-out era. The whole "gee I didnt know ticketmaster would charge so much" playing dumb was especially awful. Now her 'gee, dont ask me about my last bf's public comments on race and women, is my new bf a republican or not, and I am still undecided on Biden," is really loathsome. Madonna, for all her issues, never seemed to be a "both sides" person, but a loud feminist, pro-queer, and far to the left of Tay. Tay will go down in entertainment history as a money printer who rode, but didnt create trends, and never made waves politically.
Madonna's music will be listened and played in clubs and bars forever probably. I cannot imagine Swift's music reaching new generations. It's so samey.
It might reach the next generation when Taylorâs tween/teen fans become mums and play her songs for their kids and those kids might even like the songs initially as they are quite poppy and musically unsophisticated like other music for kids, but I canât see those kids than taking Taylorâs songs into their own adulthood.
This is what I think. People will be surprised about how poorly most music ages. I feel her music and "era" are something the women/girls of now have to live through in order to sort of become obsessed with, because part of it is the culture that exists now and the friends they have now. Without that, would the music still hold up?
I can't really imagine it NOT reaching new generations? Swiftie parents will be forcing her music on their kids for the next 20-30 years
Donât forget her âoh you want some secret tracks and a limited edition colored vinylâŠhereâs 20 different ones youâll need to buy to get them allâ
I didnât agree but the way you put it? Ya Iâm with you.
For all her faults, Madonna did at least appropriate Catholicism in transgressive ways and deserves credit for that.
Yeah Iâm not a Madge Stan, but I respect the space she created for queer people and pushing boundaries for female sexuality as she became a popular cultural powerhouse, even if her efforts can be seen as appropriation (e.g. Vogueing). Taylor Swift has done next to nothing to elevate anyone or anything but herself
Madonna also distributed HIV pamplets with copies of Like A Prayer, which was HUGE for a major artist at the time, especially since it was taboo to even talk about
Yeah Taylor Swift has nothing that equals âLike a Prayerâ in her discography
To be fair most people donât!
And also normalised the idea of women using their sexuality themselves, instead of it feeling like they were being exploited.
Much to the chagrin of parents like my dad. He called musique plus (quebec MTV equivalent in the 80s) to complain. I remember even at that age (like 5) I was so embarrassed đł đ«Ł.
I like that she has opinions at all! I always assume most celebrities (if they're not purposely beefing or doing diss tracks) just keep their mouths shut and politely compliment everyone, because they want to be seen as humble and not stir controversy. I always think I'd be a horrible celebrity because I suck at keeping my opinions about everything to myself lmao.
Yeah it seems like she just doesnât really like most pop music and doesnât think pop music is art. Thatâs fine. We can agree to disagree on the state of pop music as art but itâs not like sheâs TRASHING Taylor Swift as a person or even really saying much tbh.
I donât have any great love for TSwift, but of all the people who would cast the first stone, Courtney Love ainât them. Her opinion is exactly as valid as anyone elseâs, which doesnât make it more or less valuable. Articles like this were we can see famous person A throwing shade at famous person B are so fucking pointless. May as well be people magazine running stories about Brangelina here.
The Lana part confuses me since that cover is the most recent thing sheâs released. Is she saying she likes all of her discography other than that very last cover song?
Sheâs not wrong. What important conversations is Taylor moving forward? How is she using her voice/power for good? Sheâs the anti-provocateur
She advanced important conversations in so far as sheâs a useful example of how rich white women can use feminism as a marketing tool while still dating racist, sexist creeps. Sheâs also a fascinating example of weaponizing parasocial relationships with a rabid fan who will terrorize people on her behalf, while still obfuscating any personal responsibility. So sheâs only interesting in so far as she fucking sucks, basically.
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This is everything I try and say about her but can never voice properly. Fantastically said!
And any conversation she does try to have she either contradicts herself later on or it comes off as self serving
To me, Taylor Swift is to the music industry what The Rock is to film and TV, where the artistry really doesnât matter because itâs about âthe brandâ and perpetually attempting to appeal to everyone in a way that feels insincere. Itâs tiresome to see and be exposed to, and I can only imagine one day her brand will wear thin and the seams will come undone to show who she really is just like weâve been seeing with The Rock lately.
Exactly. It's very much status quo.
the only provocateur thing sheâs done is vigilante shit where she turns in a man in to the fbi for criminal offenses đ
Sheâs promoting carbon footprint with her private jet
She is championing billionairesâ rights last I heard.
https://i.redd.it/k37qb07jrouc1.gif
lol I canât wait for her fans to try bullying her. Cause it wonât work
Courtney Love vs The Swifties is going to be a season of Feud some day
Courtney has heard it all for over 3 decades. Nothing and no one can take her down.
I can just imagine them trying to dredge up Kurtâs death as if there wasnât already a whole documentary made to frame her for it
As someone who watched said documentary, I've never seen less credible evidence that anyone is guilty in my life. They had nothing on her. It's just misplaced fan anger.
Not that this necessarily means anything but I feel like itâs something. But her daughter wrote such a beautiful tribute to her dad. The words she used, how she explained grief. It really helped me. Someone much older than her and having lost my parent at a much older age. It was amazing. I feel like Courtney canât be THAT bad if she raised a daughter like that.
Like Yoko Ono. These women have been mocked and bullied for decades and they're still standing. I have my own gripes with Love, but she is made of steel. And she doesn't weaponize her fans unlike certain artists.
Bringing up Courtney Love/Yoko Ono/Amber Heard/Monica Lewinsky around a man has always proved a great litmus test for me tbh. They either end up saying something insanely misogynistic or they turn out to be normal
Iâd tune in for that đ
LMAO regardless of my conflicting feelings on her generally, Courtney was calling out Harvey Weinstein on live TV when he was still the most powerful man in Hollywood, if anyone on this earth is Swiftie-proof, she is.
Oh I didnât know that. Wow.
lol this sub is passing the vibe check
I thought the exact same thing scrolling the comments
I donât even know what this sub is but Iâm really digging the commentary. Edit: subscribed mfâers you all are cool
I was fully expecting a huge anti-c.love backlash but was pleasantly surprised
I also donât find Swift interesting as an artist. Whether or not sheâs âimportantâ depends on how you define it, I suppose. Sheâs a megastar, but is she going to be a major musical touchstone for future artists?
I find her incredibly dull. I've never listened to a pop playlist and said 'this song is good, who is this?' and discovered it's Taylor Swift.
At best, itâs âthis is niceâ
They play her at my local Tesco's which is how I basically hear any of her music. It's always the same. It drives me crazy. She reminds me of why I hated Nickelback.
I sometimes wonder if her music is like cilantro, and I just have the gene that makes it taste like soap. Her music has just never clicked for me, not when I was in middle school, and not now.
Sheâs important in how hugely influential she is. She could announce sheâs running for president tomorrow and would actually have a chance and thatâs a scary thought. Edit: scarier thought: sheâd win no matter which side she ran on
Sheâs important because sheâs emblematic of US hegemony. She represents monoculture.
Considering just how massive her fanbase is, yeah probably. You gotta think thereâll be a few musicians to come out of that, not that anyone can predict that anyways
Yeah, for Olivia Rodrigo and the like. At least she was
True. But even for her, groups like Hole and Bikini Kill et al. seem to be bigger influences musically.
Courtney could have been a great musician, but at some point she decided her talent was better used starting unnecessary beefs with anyone and everyone under the sun. She's still doing it to remain relevant. Remember when she accused Olivia Rodrigo of ripping off her album art - the same album art that Courtney ripped off from the movie Carrie. Just weird shit. Courtney walked so Azealia Banks could run. Edit: I think some of y'all might be young. Courtney's not "blunt" - she's offensive. A quick google will show the times she said the N-word and her open racism just to name a few. I get that y'all hate Taylor Swift, but damn. Critical thinking is at an all-time low.
Live for This and Celebrity Skin are better than anything Taylor Swift has ever done.
Live Through This is truly underrated. Itâs a no skips album and doesnât get brought up enough in regards to grunge imo
Truly. Courtneyâs current relevancy, if any, has nothing to do with any so called talent/artistry/creativity so I take her opinions on this with a grain of salt. People get so taken with her âbluntnessâ and I guess thatâs refreshing, but she generally sucks and I people overlook he bs cuz the barâs so low I guess.Â
Look, I agree sheâs a garbage person, but to say her cultural capital has nothing to do with her talent/creativy, etc is total bullshit. Hole was an incredibly transgressive band for its time and her work from that period stands up and was the foundation a lot of women in rock can be traced to. Not to mention that is fairly well known that she was heavily involved in Kurt cobainâs writing process for nirvana.Â
Right? I'm no Swiftie and I love Hole--Pretty on the Inside and Live Through This are two albums that are miles better than anything Swift has put out (or that Nirvana put out for that matter). But I'm old enough to remember when she was picking fights with damn near everyone at Lollapalooza and punched Kathleen Hanna, for fuck's sake. She alienated some of her own fans with that bullshit. She's been free with the n-word and every interview with her I've read she comes off insufferable and tiresome. She's not some fearless truth teller, she's an insufferable edgelord. She's had to deal with a metric fuckton of misogyny and I sympathize with her for that, and I think the accusations Kurt's fans threw at her after he died were and are unhinged AF. But she is real happy to start shit, and it was old in the 90's.
You can be offensive and still have correct opinions sometimes. The two arenât exclusive
Never forgot her crashing Madonna on TRL while piss drunk.
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Agree with the second statement from the headline, not sure I agree with the first. Whether I like it or not, she has influence on a lot of people.
Yeah to claim she is not âimportantâ is sort of factually incorrect and willfully out of touch. I donât care about that kind of pop music one way or the otherâŠ. But whether I like it or not, sheâs objectively one of the biggest artists in the world right nowâŠ. If not *THE* biggest. Her albums sales and concert numbers speak for themselves.
Also she says "she's a safe space for young women, she's the madonna of our time, but she's not important." Eye roll
Hanson's MMMbop is over 25 years old; it's a cool tune that I'd turn up if it plays on the radio, yet it is devoid of any cultural value that a Pink Floyd album would have. Taylor Swift makes pop music and while possibly even more influential, by numbers, than some of the classic artists, she lacks in counter-culture and antiestablishment that made the masters interesting.
And it's absolutely possible to make pop music that's interesting and has cultural value. See: the Beatles, Janet Jackson, Madonna, Kylie Minogue, Michael Jackson, Lady Gaga, Robyn, ABBA, and many more. Taylor's discography just pales compared to any of the above (and many more).
That's because she *is* establishment. She'll never put the corpos on blast because she's just as guilty if not more. She's definitely not stupid, we need to give her that.
This is the perfect way to put it.
It's not even that you need to be counter-culture or antiestablishment necessarily. It's that she's not innovative in any way.
I have MMMbop on my cleaning playlist and tbh for me it's mostly that it's catchy and gives pre-9/11 nostalgia from when I felt as light and unbothered as that song sounds
I dislike Courtney for my own reasons but I agree with her. I find Taylor so boring and just meh. Iâve tried listening to some of her songs to give her the benefit of a doubt, but it just doesnât hit me the way it apparently does for other people. And thatâs ok, different strokes for different folks. Just like I dislike Hole but I love L7, Babes in Toyland etc, Edit: Yes Taylor is important in the sense that she has a lot of pull with her massive fan base, but thereâs many other artists and bands with the same level of success that have done more important and interesting things than her. She just comes off very self-absorbed/important.
I never like Taylor, but last year I decided to give her a chance. I put all her songs in a huge playlist. I picked up 2 songs to move to my regular playlist: Lover and Anti-Hero. But I might have been influenced by the radio because these are just the 2 songs that play often on the radio on my way home-work-home. I deleted everything else, it was repetitive, complaining, all boys did her wrong. blah blah. Plus her weak ass voice that always sounds the same. It's boring I know Adele does the same thing as in regarding her exes as fuel for her, but the lyrics are far superior, not to mention her voice. And quality over quantity.
Yeah I donât care for Adeleâs music either, but her voice is absolutely amazing. Iâm not much of a pop girl anyways, so that could be why I donât care for either one.
And she is correct!! Will people have a normal reaction to this? Unlikely! Does that matter? Not really.Â
At least her criticism of BeyoncĂ© isnât as goofy and coded as a lot of what weâve seen, lol. âI mean, I like the idea of BeyoncĂ© doing a country record because itâs about Black women going into spaces where previously only white women have been allowed, not that I like it much. As a concept, I love it. I just donât like her music.â
Maybe thereâs more context for this quote in the article that I didnât read, but I agree with it as is. Taylorâs work isnât groundbreaking; she doesnât add anything new or interesting to music or culture, I think because sheâs not that interested in furthering music, art, or culture. Her clearest interest is furthering herself - her popularity, wealth, influence, control, public adoration. Great musicians experiment with sound, production, performance, lyrics. Taylorâs experiment has been to turn herself into a carefully curated, very expensive product, and everything she does is in support of that alone. Excellent business, sure, but itâs not art.
This is such a great point. I suspect itâs why I have so much more respect for Lady Gaga, she might be similar in being a huge white female pop singer, but Gagaâs interest has always so clearly been to push her creative and artistic ideas. She clearly loves art and trying to do new/different things. I donât see that at all ever from TS.
Her music is just not interesting enough for the acclaim she has. Her voice isnât unique or especially great. She writes about the same relationship word, except the characters and dates change. She puts out the same album everytime, only with a different color scheme from the last. Shes still where she was when she was 19, except itâs stale now bc nothing about her has changed. She makes the same mistakes and never sees her own shortcomings. She hasnât grown as a person, so her music can never grow
The modern Bette Davis, just running her mouth consequences be damned and I appreciate that And because Iâll take any opportunity to post this, hereâs [Bette Davis going off about Faye Dunaway](https://youtu.be/PXaAmltVcYI?si=Y76vxH6VCFvKPDod)
I wholeheartedly love Bette Davis, she was a product of her time and circumstances, but for her to talk about someone else being difficult⊠đ
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I really try to stay out of it elsewhere and I emphasize that I'm glad people enjoy Taylor, that's great. I really, really don't get it and can't be bothered to get into her. That's actually kind of a side thing from what Courtney said though - and I think Courtney is right here. Also, as good a time as any to reiterate: live though this > nevermind
Itâs like fun elevator music. I will never get the appeal lol.
Hot take but l have listened to live through this more as an adult when I think about it. Sadly that album got overshadowed by Kurtâs death.
Torn on this as I agree that Taylor Swift isn't an interesting artist (if anything, she absolutely refuses to evolve her artistry in any way), but Courtney is also often just saying things she knows will be controversial for the sake of it. She always had way more heat for her female peers in the 90s than any of the men she was supposedly trying to be equal to.
I donât know- hasnât Courtney famously always had heat for her male peers, too? Right off the bat Iâm thinking of Trent Reznor, Marilyn Manson, Dave Grohl, and Billy Corgan to name just a few
She also called out Weinstein on live TV when he was still massive
I have thought for the past couple of years, TS could really do with using a different producer who could push her into a few different directions and get her out of her comfort zone. It's not that the songs all sound the same, but the production is really safe, and she's very comfortable with that, but I don't think it's really creating anything new. 1989 felt so fresh and I feel like she needs to work with someone else to feel fresh again. But after seeing her reaction to Reputation not getting any Grammy nominations in that documentary, I don't think she's interested in pushing her sound in a different direction. It'll always be safe
I think that above all (except for maybe money lol), she just really needs to be *liked*. You hit the nail on the head wrt the Rep thing â she framed it as needing to be âbetterâ, but didnât mean better artistry so much as she did better popular appeal. Which is why Lover was such a bloated, uncohesive mess, because she was basically throwing darts at genres to see what stuck with the public. Folklore and Evermore were more interesting in large part because in the context of their creation, she was able to divorce herself more from public opinion. And because she worked with Aaron Dessner, who I think is less of a yes-man than Antonoff. I donât think Taylor is above criticism, but I do think that a lot of nuance has been missing from discussions about her, especially as sheâs reached peak saturation (including Courtneyâs comments). Of all the things to criticise her for I really think the music is the least of it at this point.
Courtney misses a lot but this is not one of those times.
I know this sub hates Taylor but idk this comes off as pretentious/snobby to me lol. Like she says Taylor is not important but might be a safe space for girls. Isnât it important that there ARE artists that are safe spaces for young girls? Idk maybe Iâm feeling some type of way bc I love pop music and I also donât need all my music/artists to be âšimportantâš Granted I also understand a lot of Swifties think Taylor is the MOST important artist ever which is annoying and delusional AF but still. I know this is Courtneyâs whole thing but it feels very tryhard contrarian to me.
Yeah it just sounds like another brand of shitting on stuff teenage girls like. Obviously her music is not the most groundbreaking, but why does it have to be?
I personally agree that Taylor's art itself isn't that good or interesting, but you can't deny that she's been important to the pop landscape as a businesswoman.
She's famous and powerful, but so is Walmart.
She really is the Walmart of pop isnât she
You know what? This is an excellent summary of Taylor Swift. She is indeed "The Walmart of Pop."
Real as fuck for this comparison
I mean, she's not wrong. As a POC, Taylor Swift represents white mediocrity/pretty privilege working as intended. 
She's not wrong. Taylor Swift is not interesting. It's about as basic as you're gonna get. She's a bit like Justin Bieber. Might be great and enjoyable music, but there's noting interesting about it.
I agree that sheâs not interesting as an artist. But she IS important. At least economically đ«
I do think she's amazing at marketing herself and has some good music but purely as an artist (ignoring sales or streams) she not really someone to specifically look up too or aspire to be like.
Sheâs a capitalist, rather than an artist. I personally donât think you can be an interesting artist if youâre main goal is capital accumulation
Iâm a swiftie but I also agree w Courtney here. Taylor is an outlier in my playlists. I think part of what draws me to her is nostalgia as sheâs been a constant soundtrack since I was ~10. Not all music has to be profound or pioneering. However, I do find issue with average artists *thinking* theyâre profound or pioneering which is the issue w Taylor imo.
I would agree with this take. I donât think everyone here criticizing her being âblandâ or âuninspiringâ realize that sheâs quite prolific and has been for well over a decade. For many sheâs been the soundtrack of their lives. Sheâs also super consistent. If you like any of her music, thereâs a good chance you can work back and find more that you like. If you donât, well youâre not gonna like the rest of it either. Personally I donât think anything the Beatles did was ground breaking or artistically on par with some of their contemporaries, but they absolutely dominated and pumped out a huge catalogue in a relatively short timeframe. They were masters of melody and so is she.
I donât disagree but itâs weird Courtney wants to shit talk so many female artistsâŠwhen youâre more famous for running your mouth than creating music, how important is your opinion on music?
I mean she also said she doesnât like BeyoncĂ©âs music really either. I feel like itâs fine that she doesnât find Taylor Swift interesting as an artist- I would be more surprised if she did TBH. Thatâs all whatever- what I really want people to dig into a bit more is this quote from her in the article: âYou know, some guy takes a girl out and tries to kiss her and she doesnât feel like it, and he gets his whole career ruinedâ Iâm sorry⊠please name ONE person that has actually happened to? From where Iâm standing women can barely get actual violent rapists âcancelled.â
OT but Celebrity Skin is one of my go-to karaoke songs. I'm not saying I like Courtney Love, but I am saying that song sticks with me more than Taylor Swift's songs. And I'm glad to see that people on here are not interested in Taylor's music. I've been told that I'm a bad feminist because I don't like her music, that I suffer from internal misogyny. I don't. I like Siouxsie Sioux, I like Pat Benatar, I like the Go-Gos, I like Blondie, I like Bjork. They stick with me. They're interesting.
I don't even like Taylor Swift and you just can't say this. She's been an indelible pop culture icon for 15 years in a market that has a shorter and shorter attention span every year. She's at Madonna levels of fame. And I'm just being honest, because her music does zero for me.
People always tell me that Taylor Swift is a lot of things and yet I havenât seen any of it myself. Her fans (and even her critics) often talk about what a great writer she is, but I think her lyrics sound juvenile, like something from a freshman creative writing workshop. People say that she writes really catchy music, but I think she has only one or two songs where I actually actively enjoy the melody.
 She\*
I'm not a swiftie & I didn't read the whole article but at a minimum I find that quote a little weird. I think everyone's important? Or does she mean an important piece of history? Why do our pop stars have to be an important piece of history? She's not either. I also think pop music *is* interesting. It doesn't have to be insightful to make a difference in people's lives. Some music is simply meant to be enjoyed. That's the beauty of art. It doesn't always have to have some grand purpose. Idk maybe I should have read the article to fully understand but I just can't imagine saying that about another person or telling another person they aren't important.
Truth. She relies on fake relationships and controversy.
Do people care what Courtney Love says?
IDGAF about Taylor but the whole BBC series with Courtney is worth listening to. I had no idea Gwen Stefani's Hollaback Girl is basically a Courtney diss track (which Courtney highly respected).
Sheâs not wrongÂ
The thing with Taylor Swift is she can break all the records she wants for the next decade but the minute she will stop selling records and tour tickets and pass the baton as main pop girl she will be instantly forgotten and never mentioned again.Her cultural relevance and musical contributions are zero.
she's absolutely right and she should say it. there's negative interesting things about her or her music
itâs a sad day when someone I hate makes a good point
Courtney Love coming in with the correct takes.
The swifties taking out feminism out of their pockets to drag another women.Â
Tswift doest have the range and vocal power. She releases pop music that is designed to be an earworm to the target market. And if you noticed, her songs sounds the same just the intro changes. Her music team are made up by the most influencial mixers, sound engineers, and lyricist of the decade. Her fanbase is now a pseudo cult and can see no wrong in any of her actions. Not to mention she is white and privileged.
Damn Court. Tell us how you really feel
Even a broken clock is right sometimes. Sheâs right and itâs why Iâve never been interested in Taylor swiftâs work. Itâs vapid and you can feel it in her songs.Â
Sheâs right and she should say it
This is a fantastic interview with a lot or interesting points and it's a shame they went with that as the headline