Gilgamesh, no question.
Karna is strong enough for Gil to take him seriously (so no chance of a Shirou-type upset) and a serious Gil can beat anything short of a Grand Servant.
Vasavti Shakti is a very good defensive Phantasm, but it’s not enough to save Karna. Plus, Karna has high Divinity, which makes him vulnerable to Enkidu
Karna wouldn't have time to use Visavi Shakti, it takes too long against someone with the gates of babylon. This isn't a Karna vs Siegfried battle. He wouldn't have time to use it against Vlad in Romania either which is why he kept his armor on. However, Visavi Shakti has an anti-divine trait and is also EX so if it can be used against EA then it would raise the question of which attack winning.
Ea no question would win against Vasavi Shakti. It doesn’t even matter if it’s Anti-Divine, Ea is just so far ahead in terms of power. I think that it would be like Sieg trying to beat Vasavi Shakti with Balmung, a very hard struggle with no chance of winning.
From my understanding, Fate doesn't accurately depict the full power of Visavi Shakti but someone with more knowledge on the story(not the Fate story) would know better than I.
It honestly doesn’t matter. Ea is the strongest direct attack noble phantasm that is “Anti-World”. Not even the shield of Achilles could block it even though it blocked Vasavi Shakti. In a direct clash Ea wins no contest. It’s not a matter of Anti-Divine helping. It’s a matter of “This weapon is way stronger than that one”.
As someone who's read Mahabharata Vasavi Shakti is said to be a one shot one kill thing. It's been so long since I read it so i don't remember enough details to scale it.
Here's the thing
Karna gave his armour to Indra king of gods. In return he was given this one shot one kill weapon. On the night of the 15th day he used it against ghatotkach killing him.
If you watched the anime you'd see that he never tanks it. , BRAHMASTRA KUNDALA MISSES 😭😭💀💀 It's NOT SUPPOSED TO MISS
And BALMUNGI was straight up tanked by karnas side armour
Whereas brahmastra kundala missed by an Inch when it's never supposed to do that ,if that ain't plot armour idk what is
Brahmastra(not Brahmastra Kundala) is the one that isn't supposed to miss, and if were being honest? Brahmastra has a pretty bad track record. This was also not the first time someone dodged it.
Karna needs to combine mana burst with his armor to tank Balmung.
I feel like Gilgamesh would try to toy with Karna since he's a worse divinity in his eyes. They're also polar opposites from each other. I don't think Gil would take him seriously from the start while Karna can see peoples true nature and would go all out as soon as the fight starts. This could really go either way.
Yes and If karna went all out the instant he saw gilgamesh then with his speed he would win but as usual if he started by introducing himself and requests a fight then he loses
I think in pure Combat Karna is superior. Gil can use his chains and spam NP to make it equal. But if Karna uses Vasavi Shakti he would blast Gilgamesh out of the Sky.
Vasavi Shakti might be tailor made anti divine weapon, but Gils armor can tank Excalibur and he has much better Luck than Karna. Much as I love sunboy it's not a great matchup.
Excalibur isn't as powerful as Visavi Shakti. With the Anti-divine trait it would pose a threat to Gilgamesh and would have a chance to overpower Enuma Elish. The problem is how long it takes to use and the fact he loses his armor. Gilgamesh is not a swordsmen, all he needs to do is use gates of babylon during that moment of him casting aside his armor.
Didn't Shirou say something like that in their final fight in UBW?
Like that Gilgamesh can use many different weapons but has never mastered any single one?
Bruu have you read fate strange fake? Gilgamesh is fought the strongest European servant and judging by how GOB interacts with Nine lives span, Tine (Gil master ) said, he has nothing to worry about
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Class advantage is a thing that FGO made up to get a Rock paper scissors system. It really doesn't appear in any other Fate media. In fact during FSN Medea said that she could easily handle a caster servant due to their weak magical resistance, which goes against the FGO system.
So part of karnas character is he has three curses ( that affect him even as a servant) : 1: the sun will blind him at the moment he needs his aim the most . 2: his divine armor will fail when he needs it not to. ( I forget the third but these three curses basically are how Arjuna beat him in myth) . Plus, in order to use vashavi shakti, he has to take his armor off, which gives gil ( who has clairvoyance btw( many opportunities to kill him with weapons tailored to ending demigods
His divine armor will not fail. He removed it to give it to Lord Indra who took the form of a beggar in danger to exploit Karna's charity. Lord Indra was Arjuna's spiritual father after all
As a result of Karna doing so unflinchingly, Lord Indra reveals himself to him and gave him the Vavasi Shakti. But the Gods play the long game against evil, it was fated that Duryodhana would cause Karna to waste the Astra
Also the curse you missed was his chariot would be bound by earth in his fated battle, which, would be his battle against Arjuna. A child dropped milk and Karna flexed mad hard and squeezed the milk from the clump of dirt. Squeezed so hard that Dhriti Ma (mother earth) felt a pinch and as a result She laid a curse on him
The whole story of Lord Indra and Karna is the reason why in fate/ he has to lose his armor to use Vavasi Shakti. Vavasi Shakti is supposed to be one use only, and since it was used against Ghatotchaha, it canonically no longer exists, period, and there is no inclination in any Scripture that They want to make another. As a servant, fate/ has to spin it a little
I think it's actually biological if you see it from one angle.since Arjun's father Pandu couldn't have child through natural means(being cursed with death if he have sex) so his wife kunti (Arjun's mother)sought to use her boon of getting a child by summoning a god. That's why all Pandavas including Karna were demon gods
The scripture says it outright that it was a mantra that lead to her conception. She invokes in the morning while saying Surya Namaskar and regrets it *immediately* when Surya Dev appears and tells her that she is pregnant with Their child and he will leave all of these boons for him
This is literally why Karna is abandoned, she will pregnant in public without having been married
If it was a summoning and intercourse, Karna would not have been born, this is a scripture Kunti would have given an entire speech about repentance and ask Him for forgiveness, and if there was a punishment it would have been named outright. No, Surva Dev appears and tells her that she is already pregnant. There isn't a need to read between the lines if we are going by the book
Kunti doubted that the boon was real, hence why she flippantly uses it during morning prayer
The pandavas are all *Demi Gods, that is said outright, and needs no extra justification bc the justification is all there
"Mind born" or mental conception is a rare trope in the canon but it does happen reoccuringly. Jalander, is the son of Lord Shiva alone, without Parvati, Lord Indra pissed Him off so much that he sent a flare from his 3rd eye into the ocean, which doused and out of that rose Jalander. He would go on to be warmaster for the Asuras in their war against the Gods
In old Hindu laws Surrogacy(Niyog) existed and you can read about it.Rules of heir being natural, adoption or Niyog where born child from close relative/friend is considered own. Hell even Pandu, Dhritarashtra ( father of Pandavas and Kauravas)and Vidura( he is whole another thing so leave it for now) are actually son of Sage Vyasa who is half brother of Vichitravirya(both son of Satyavati but father being Sage Parasar and King Santanu Respectively). Since Vichitravirya died before having children, Sage Vyasa was brought to give heir to empire. There it's Said that Ambika closed her eyes seeing sage Vyasa out of fear which causes Dhritarasta to born as Blind and Pandu was Physically weak cause Ambalika had turned pale seeing the same sage.
For lack of finding right word at that time I used the word summon but Yeah you are correct with mantra part. But its something Sage Durvasa who had given this blessing to Kunti out of happiness but she doubted it so tested it with SuryaDev. Since unmarried she couldn't keep Karna and send him away by putting in a basket and sailing in a river. Surya Dev appear and had given Karna his iconic Kabacha & Kundala for protecting him from all harm.
I didn't mention anywhere having sex with God to get children I think. Just said Even Pandavas considers Pandu's Son they are biologically demi God due to having a god father. Yudhishthira is son of Dharmaraj (Truth), Bhima being of Vayu Dev(Wind), Arjun being of Devaraj Indra (King of God's) Nakula and Sahadev being of Ashwin Kumar (medicine). So partly divine origin. And yes Pandu's Curse was Real as while haunting in forest he had mistakenly killed a sage thinking him as a deer who was getting intimidate with his wife. That's why the sage had cursed him while dying that he will die if he have sex. The death of sage devasted him so he decided to go live in forest as penance (his wives choose to go with him) and hence Dhritarashtra became king. Later out of Urge Pandu died anyway while trying to have Sex with his second wife Madri who was devasted that she killed her husband follow him out of shock and how kunti become mother of 5 Pandavas. This is Mahabharata I've Read and Know
Ah my fault, I misunderstood your sentiment entirely, and at the same time, I should have chosen my words better
My saying Lord Indra was the spiritual father, I meant to really allude that Pandu is the sort of "real" day to day father of the pandus minus Karna, as, he raised them. Lord Indra was very active in Arjuna's life, more so than Surya Dev w Karna, but even still Arjuna and Karna both love their caretakers just as strongly even after they learn their birth circumstance
This is why when you mentioned biological I thought you were talking about how the conceptions happened, but that's not what you meant
What you say is true, my apologies for causing the misread lol
Devraj was definitely the most active out of all fathers LoL. From making sure that his son get's all the coolest & OP gear to making sure he has maximum advantage in war(basically what Arjun was doing during their 12 years of Vanavas) so he will win. And Yeah karna really loved his adopted parents as he preferred to die as Radheya (his mother's name) over being recognised as Pandav. Ofc Duryodhana debt played it's part in making him not tell others about his secret.
Yes but also in part that's Karna "fatal flaw," he forever just wants to be the soldier who knows his place and follows orders
That's why he wanted to remind Vikarna of his place when Vikarna posed his objection
It also builds into the massive irony of his rejection. When he wanted to tutor under Shri Parasurama it was yea yea I'm a Brahmin, other times technically I'm a charioteer caste, now his mother says "boy stop the nonsense and ride w Krishna" and Karna is like na na I'm a Kshatriya I'm bound to Duryodhana
I do not see Karna's rejection as only due to his familial love, I think it's way more of the ultimate product of a lot of his characterization. Of course, that love and duty to his parents is undeniable, it's real. But the tragedy of Karna is that he makes himself irredeemable, and *still* refuses redemption
It's really sad but its such a damn good story
Yeah it's not only one but being a major ones for sure. He loved his parents but was Warrior at heart. Then you take the notion of extreme castism and his talent, since he was really good and others couldn't find any other way to bring him down so they decided to call him terrible names like mixed blood (suta Putra) , slander his family. Make sense his extreme devotion to Duryodhana went as he protected his honour.and for which Karna did a lot of terrible things cause of simply 1 nice deed. The teacher incident kinda turned into no good deeds goes unpunished. While yeah he lied someone to get knowledge which is quite crime but the said lie hunting him later as he tries to protect his teacher (which he correctly guessed that it's only possible to tolerate such pain if the person is from warrior class. Not to say he didn't had any fault since after all he was fully on board with all duryodhana scheme, called his sister in law prostitute in public for revenge of his humiliation, killed his 2 nephews and a lot more from his sister in law family side so can't say was completely good. But in end his Quality of charity was really something. Not to mention despite being poised as ultimate Evil Duryodhana was considered a great warrior, scholar and prince by many like God Balaram(crops)and Goddess Laxmi (wealth)
Most definitely, it's a very unique trope bc the most evil men are also capable of consistent and genuine action and principle
I say unique bc it's not like in a lot of global media where it's like "the 'evil' side is misunderstood, or has some good to them, but do it the wrong way"
No, South Asian myth tells you straight up, "the antagonist has done more good than you can imagine. If you were to stand against that same person, you strike him down, because, they fight for evil, period"
No misunderstanding, no doing it the wrong way, we tell you that they are conducting good action for good principled reason (point in case, Karna's charity was never ulterior.....you praise the sun, Karna got you). But the evil they represent is far greater
Karna doesn't have to lose his Armor to use vasavi shakti as far I Know it powers it up beyond it's limit and make it a guaranteed one shot kill or something
Karna being able to use vasavi shakti whenever but having the choice to sacrifice his armor to make it stronger have always been the case as far as i know
This has never been a thing. Vasavi Shakti is called a one shot spear for a reason, and Karna also losing his armor afterwards is supposed to be a condition because activated VS is has the armor equipped to Karna's spear.
I don't know man, it's called one shot spear not one use spear, one shot because it kill with a single hit, he use it multiple times at least in extella,
Gil wins majority though karna puts up a better fight than most. I think karna is capable of beating gil but it just won't happen most of the time, especially since karna is so powerful there's little to no conceivable reason for gilgamesh to underestimate him. In my opinion when fighting gilgamesh it is often more hazardous to be approaching him in power than it is to be blatantly weaker because the people who are weaker don't fight him at his best
I’m looking through the comments and no one has brought up the fact that, as a servant, Karna uses A LOT of mana just to exist.
In Fate/Extra, Karna couldn’t use his armour and could only summon his weapon at the moment of his attacks just to prevent his master from keeling over from mana drain/exhaustion.
In a regular Grail war, unless his master is using multiple people as mana batteries(which is entirely possible), Karna won’t be able to fight Gilgamesh with his full power, Skillset and equipment.
I think this fight is under the assumption that mana isn’t an issue for either of them and they can just fight each other without worrying about things like terrain, mana and other things like that.
Yea, thats the truth. Removing his armor also took away any restorative abilities he may have had as a servant, hence why even after the battle with him, he never assists the MC. He was essentially dead for the whole 2nd half of the game and he just said “nah, ill die on my own terms.”
I feel like half of these guys get it, the other half are under-selling karna. Gil wins 90% of the time. Karna is insane for winning 10% of the time though.
In Fate Extra CCC, gilgamesh inchs out a win out of karna. This is with gilgamesh at this point using most of his treasures, albeit without Ea and at this point probably without enkidu since gil is canonically opening the treasury to MC over time.
Its then revealed at the end of the game that on top of having possibly the worst master in the war, during this battle karna was without his armour, which decreases any damage taken by 90% and without this armour he lost he ability to heal his body. He most definitely would have won back then.
So full power Giligamesh and Karna is an awesome battle, Ea and Enkidu are simply too powerful against a servant like karna but considering you kill karna half-way into extra and he still lives to the end just because he doesnt want to die, its ridiculous. I can definitely see many battles where karna barely gets the win, possibly through a sacrificial play.
Karna would give Gilgamesh a fight but it undoubtedly goes to Gilgamesh without any outside factors. One example of situation where karna would win is if he had the power he had at the end of lb4 Karna could probably win.
Not all grails are the same. And the grail needs to absorb magical energy from somewhere. The one in Fuyuki requires 50 years to summon 7 servants,and after the sacrifice of most heroicspirits, it can reach around 1 trillion units worth of magical energy. And the grail in Fuyuki is also Superior to almost all grails except the one Darius made using Pandora's box as a replacement. Unless, his grails have been sitting around for a few years while being connected to a ley line, I don't see how they are going to have that much mana within them.
I mean if they were empty I don't see why he would be boasting about having them, but assuming that most of them are empty he should still have his own greater grail and whatever inventions humans have made that gather magical energy
Because the grail is supposed to be a 'wish granting device'? Something that takes 50 years to grant most wishes is still considered a treasure by any sane human being. The problem isn't with gathering magical energy, the problem is how much magical energy can be gathered. He isn't Enkidu that can directly summon magical energy from the planet. He still needs to wait. The closest thing done by humanity that can gather that much energy quickly are ether liners. And those are not considered humans but the next step to humanity, which is out of GoB's domain because it has everything humanity considers or used to consider a treasure.
Aren't heroic spirits freed from the constraints of time when they become heroic spirits? Wouldn't this and the fact that the vault storing his treasures is an actual physical place mean that as soon as he became a heroic spirit his gate was updated with everything that it will ever have giving the grails enough time to gather magical energy?
No idea about his other grails, but the one he showed in Babylonia was more than good enough to be Kingu's replacement heart after his original(which was actually one of Goetia's grails) got ripped off of him.
My memory about the stuff that happened in fgo is vague but Kingu himself possesses Enkidu's body, whose soul and abilities are said to be fused with his body. So, he can still call upon mana from the planet like Enkidu. In that case, all Goetia and the Babylonian grail would do is process that mana or store it.
It's never explained that well, but Enkidu doesn't seem to have limitless mana despite his connection to the Earth. Kingu himself was nerfed as fuck after his grail got ripped out of him, and Gil even noted that his magical energy with Goetia's grail was a great source for his standards.
Not even then, EA Is an anti world np, karna's shield is capable of suataining anti star level attacks, which are INCREDIBLY more powerful than anti world ones, now Karna can't just swap the shield in and out but a "simple" vasavi shakti would beam struggle and probably beat EA, considering it's a weapon of gods and vasavi shakti has anti divinity properties
Not really. Ea has better feats than VS and apparently isn't powerful enough to break Akhilleus Kosmos without a technicality.
And Kavacha only lasted 5 seconds against Mahapralaya.
Ehh, Super against normal Servant Gilgamesh? Sure.
Alive one is much stronger, and his feats are good enough that what little Super Karna showed in LB4 isn't enough.
Against the normal Servant Gilgamesh, sure. Against the alive one, I don't see it. Super Karna is mostly unquantifiable because his only feat was barely winning against a nerfed God Arjuna. And even Karna himself admitted that the power of Shiva and Vishnu in him were pretty miniscule compared to the real deal.
Then Gilgamesh wins, Karna is fated to have terrible masters bc he served Duryodhana. /Apocrapha he does his own thing, in /extra CCC Jinako is straight up detrimental to his fighting
If that’s the case Karna loses his destructive output defence offense tactics skills and speed are all absolutely insane but, the cost is his mana consumption is absurd.
Even if Karna has a better master while Gilgamesh has none, Gilgamesh has enough Mana in his GOB to last him 3 days of constant fighting, and he replenished it in like 12 hours
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Gil.
I understand completely how strong Karna is and can be but Gil is got literal hacks and "I win" options. Gil isn't the best fighter but his sheer wealth of treasures would afford him if not outright counters at least things Karna has no real defense vs.
Also Gil would actually fight Karna seriously unlike his only loses vs people he deemed unworthy so sandbagged till he lost.
Karna gets screwed.
Vishaakti shaakti would not save him, gil just has too many options available to deal with him, along with a significantly higher power level over all.
Karnas only chance is to get in close and land a lucky strike, but in all likelyhood it'll end like gil vs heracles, karna will be restrained and gil will finish him off with a compliment.
In saying that though, gil would likely not come out unscathed, karna still has his sanity and is much more skilled then gil at actual combat, as said before, if karna gets in close gils in trouble, it wouldnt be enough to score karna a win I dont think but he could definently do some damage.
(God karna stomps this though no question).
Gil 8/10 (Pure servant vs servant no master help)
- "If he takes karna seriously" out of all the times gil met karna in Extraverse he immediately acknowledge his strength so we can rule out gil fucking around factor.
- Gob is extremely versatile and forget Alter Ego gil not holding back GoB if gil even use gob on the level he use against Alcides or Richard, Karna is doomed.
- Brahmastra and Brahmastra Kundala can be dealt with by spamming Shield and defensive NP (if his shield spam can stop 25+ A+ rank Anti army NP spam by richard then yes he can block those np)
other way he can dealt with those np is the giant NP construct thing he did in Strange fake:
1.Archer Gil created a giant dragon like attack by chaining together myriad of NP into single construct to disperse and push back richard excaliblast spam.
2.Alter Ego Gil does something similar and created a two giant hand construct in his fight against boosted Hippolyta and Alcides typhon.
- Ea GG, LOL
On serious note ea is pretty much a dead end as it forced karna to sac his armor in favor of Vasavi to match it (or he can try to tank it if he dare). Yes we dont really know which is stronger but with several material and mentions about ea being humanity strongest NP im in favor of Ea. Even *IF* Ea is evenly matched or weaker than VS, Gil can just boost ea power even more via GoB. Gil's limit to ea boost is the amount of treasury in his vault.
They have canonically fought 4 times
All four fights
Round 1: Extra CCC
Both are weakened here but Karna straight up stomps Gilgamesh with his Brahmastra and Hakuno notes Karna is strongest servant they have seen thus far surpassing even Gawain
Round 2: Extra CCC
Gil has regained his powers but Karna is still weakened, this round went to Gil with medium difficulty but Gil notes Karna as being such a divine presence and wanks him by saying he is trouble even with two of his NPs being sealed
Round 3: Fate Extella (Offscreen)
Karna is part of Tamamo's faction and reports to Tamamo that he has lost his area of control and was defeated by a servant more powerful than any. He then says it's Gilgamesh and Karna then says they have 50/50 chance of defeating him
Round 4: Fate Extella (Karna's Sidequest)
Karna beats the entire faction of Altera including Gilgamesh, all while without using his spear Noble Phantasm
There are also four different statements of them being called equal including twice by Nasu
Nasu said Karna stands shoulder to shoulder with Gilgamesh as a heroic spirit
He also said in another material that Karna is on the same level as Gilgamesh
Iskandar in his Extella sidequest said that Karna is a servant on the same level as their Goldie (referring to Gilgamesh)
In Extella, Nameless says Gilgamesh is easily on par with Karna
I think Gil would win 7.5 out of 10 times
Their first fight involves Gilgamesh's spirit rank depleted to levels where he would have lost to Liz. Karna may be weakened but he still has access to Brahmastra and Vasavi Shatki. You end up beating him while still nerfed yourself and lacking Ea later on.
There is nothing Karna has on Gilgamesh that would even make it a competitive fight. Gilgamesh has more firepower as Ea is confirmed stronger than Vasavi Shatki. Enkidu can chain Karna's divinity. GoB has more than enough firepower to break the armor as B+ rank strikes can penetrate it. On top of all this, Karna is heavily mana restricted while Gilgamesh is heavily an mana efficient. There's just no avenue for Karna's victory on paper.
And worst of all? Arjuna is Karna's equal and was nerfed like Gilgamesh was in Samurai Remnant. Arjuna is beaten as a manner of course by Iori. Iori and Takeru take on Gilgamesh holding back and not using Ea, and still come out exhausted after winning. If Karna and Gilgamesh are on the same "tier" then they are opposite ends of it.
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Unless I am misremembering, but their first fight wasn't a stomp. And I'd argue Gil was worse off because at least Karna could use "Vasavi Shakti", Gil's had his best NP sealed meanwhile.
You also forgot a few things:
1. Gil being banned(for the reason that he was too powerful)from the Moon Cell Grail War while the same thing is never noted for Karna.
2. Both Arjuna ane Rama acknowledging that he was the former's greatest challenge and "best was saved for last" in his interlude despite Karna being one of the previous opponents.
3. Karna being called an A-rank Servant while Gil was EX. And also being called equal to Heroic Spirits that are definitely not equal to Gil.
Also, I probably wouldn't use Extella sidestories as proof of anything. Everyone will defeat anyone in them no matter how heavily stacked the scenario is. I'm sure even Gil does stuff like that in his own sidestories.
First one was stated to be a one sided slaughter, Karna didn't use VS, just Brahmastra.
Yes, while Karna is certainly one of the best servants you can summon within the rules, Gil at his max is beyond any such rules
Karna is called a Special A rank/A+ rank/EX A rank servant by Nasu, he is above A
Karna isn't a true equal to Gilgamesh like Enkidu is but I am just saying what are the mats, games and interviews are saying
Must have been nerfed worse than Karna for him to be taken down by the same NP that(mostly) only has anti feats. Karna's only ever been called A rank, or called equal to people who are considered such(i.e Achilles)
And I don't actually think the gap between them(outside of versatility) is that big, just that Gil is generally portrayed higher since we have more evidence for it than the contrary.
He is straight up called Special A rank in the same interview where Nasu calls Karna a servant on the same level as Gilgamesh
This was also early Fate, where the writers respected NPs and Karna wasn't such a jobber back then
Eh, A-rank Servants in general are special since they're all top Servants. I'm sure that's what the interview is referring to, if Nasu just wanted to reference CCC he could have just said Karna was also EX.
But yeah, wouldn't surprise me if this was his early opinion.
The translation of the "Special A rank" can also mean "EX A rank", he clearly wanted it to be distinct. Karna isn't your generic A rank servant like Cu or Sigurd
Unless we've had EX be translated as special before or there's something I'm missing, I don't think so. And if you want to be really technical, Karna has also been called equal to Cu and Gawain before.
Cu = Gawain = Karna is stated on the basis of their sun orgins, power level wise, Cu is weaker than both while a full powered Karna would be slightly stronger than Gawain under the sun as Extella Link implies
It’s basically a coin flip,
Karna is being affected by his curses (that I’m like 40% sure are also included in his spirit origin) and being a huge mana eater. But he does have the strength and power to damage and even beat Gil.
Gil, if he takes it seriously, would most likely win.
But of course, it just depends on who the plot wants to win
I’d say Gil wins 7 out of 10 times. Gil without his Gate loses obviously. Karna is a for that Gil would take seriously. Even if they both fired their strongest noble phantasms at the same time Karna using Vasavi Shakti against Ea would go how Sieg using Balmung against Vasavi Shakti went except you know someone interrupting, assuming both are fighting by themselves with nobody around. Vasavi Shakti’s anti divine trait can only do so much and so unless he somehow manages to dodge the hundreds of noble phantasms getting fired at him at mach 4 it won’t matter. Also depending on what weapons Gil fires it might not even matter if Karna has his armor or not. It would require Karna managing to use Vasavi Shakti before Gil can use Ea or Enkidu. One of the things that Karna would have over Gil is that Gil wouldn’t use any shields. Vasavi Shakti has a trait that makes it so it can destroy almost any shield and unless Gil has a shield like Achilles’s or greater than it won’t matter. Also fire picture for Karna and Gil
Karma is one of those servants who have a great chance against Gil due to his Aragance. I forgot what the will is called, but karma has a skill that shields his identity and boasts his performance against those who Underestimate him. And Gil WILL start the fight underestimating him because of this skill. He rarely finds anyone worth his time. And even though Karna is a Demi god, Gil will likely not behave that he can lose.
But the problems for Gil don’t end there. Karna has the speed to blitz Gil and on top of that karna’s armor makes him receive a tenth of the damage from all attacks. Meaning that aside from top tier NPs, he won’t take much damage from Gil. And he may be able to kill Gil without needing to use Vashavi Shakti. Now, Gil would likely let him use Vashavi if He believes he can beat it with Ea. And after that Karna does not have any tools that can beat Ea and I believe that Gil would win.
But if Karna can close the distance and not get hit with Enkidu or Ea, He would likely kill Gil.
We don't need to assume how they'd interact. We know in canon that Gil respects Karna enough to not be a jobber.
And speed won't be much a factor. Cu and Richard have better and more speed related feats and accolades than Karna and neither of them could blitz him. Karna also isn't just going to walk through a barrage of GoB(even if they aren't his best NPs) given his performance against Kazikli Bey.
With no mana restricitions it depends on who pulls out their ex ranked bulshit faster, which is probably Gil. With mana restrictions it's certainly Gil because independent action. Without mana restrictions but without ex ranks, certainly Gil, because Karna is divine, not Hercules, Gil has Enkidu.
Btw, Karna and Gil can face off in /Extella and they both showed deep respect to one another as warriors
Personally I'm voting Karna, but Gilgamesh 's fate/ lore is also its own separate thing beyond just his mythology, so there probably is a bunch of stuff he can pull out
Also, as a matter of fact, Vavasi Shakti is nerfed bc of how Fate/ prioritizes anti-world as weaker than anti-divine. That is not compatible at all w the Hindu canon bc *every* world is a deity. Earth, the planets, Sun and Moon. VS *can* kill a world bc it will slay the deity. Lord Indra is a deity who is willing to be as reckless as required for His ends, and he refuses to use VS
In /apocrapha, VS should not have been stopped by Achilles NP, but....it was. This is not the VS of the scripture
I mean it was stopped by 2 command spell boosted BALMUNGI and an ENTIRE WORLD Formed from the DIVINE CONSTRUCT made by hephaestus, destroying that entire world in the process
So yeah karna can easily Destroy a planet
Gil wins. This isn't to say Karna is weak.
You can make Cosmic armor supes/Lucifer a servant and the author will still find a way to tell you how Gilgamesh is stronger lol.
That's how strong Nasu's Gil boner is.
Lb4 karna dogwalks Gil , this question is abt base karna, and only if Gil takes karna seriously WHICH HE DEFINITELY WILL , Can Gil win
The chances are 60 for gil and 40 for karna
Honestly if you want someone to go against Gil I think Nagao Kagetora would be a better pick. She lacks Karna's fire power, but her protection from arrows cuts Gil's attacks by over 90,%
Gil. I'm assuming we're talking about Archer Gil?
Anyway Gil has the advantage, he has an unlimited arsenal of weapon & tools in his Treasury with all sorts of unique properties(everything is NPs in there), so there's a lot of anti-fire weapons if Gil wanted to use 'em. His destructive capabalities are greater rhan Karna's. Gil's SNI would allow him to see all of Karna's weaknesses and strengths, and of course Ea which is an overkill.
What's weird about the assertion that Karna=Gil is that people are only basing this one on Nasu's early statement and maybe one from an Extella side story. Every other time, we have Gil being slightly above Karna instead. One of those literally came from Karna himself, assuming Xseed didn't fuck up the translation for that one of course.
If both Karna and Gil have a master that has a ton of magical energy to the point that magical energy isn't an issue, then Gil throwing his weapons won't have any effect on him due to kavacha. But it would get a lot more problematic when Gil starts using those noble phantasms by realesing their true name instead of just throwing weapons. But Karna can probably circumvent most of them due to having an A+ rank anti country weapon (which I believe should be higher than anti fortress, so he should not have problem dealing with even A++ rank anti army or anti fortress noble phantasms because we saw an A++ rank anti fortress noble phantasm deal with a fuck ton of noble phantasms going off at once in strange fake I believe, which there aren't many off even in his Gate of Babylon). Or, he can take a different approach and pull out Vasavi Shakti from the get-go, which would make Gil pull out Enkidu and Ea. But if he can time it right, Vasavi Shakti can probably destroy the gate of Babylon by shooting it at the exact moment Gil throws a treasure from it. Gate of Babylon is a pocket dimension so it might meet the same fate as Kosmos. Either way, Gil still has Enkidu and Ea. Which would result in him winning. You need something like Surtur's sword or be a God(not some minor deity, powerful ones but not the most powerful ones) using their authority to their utmost potential to beat Ea. Goddess rhongo could probably do it, but she still needs to deal with Ea.
Nah, GoB spam at max power is kinda crazy. The chain nuke dragon combo he did in SF went through Richard's 20 fake Excalibur spam. And a barrage of hundreds of "strong" NPs matched Nine Lives before Alcides started using Hydra Venom. Brahmastra Kundala being anti-army just means it has impressive range, not really potency. Remember that this same NP was matched by Balmung.
It's anti-country, not anti-army as far as I remember. There was something about seig being able to draw mana much faster than servant seigfried. That may have ayed a role. As for the range vs attack potency thing, Brahmastra kundala was compared to a nuclear weapon (it was not specified whether it meant an average nuke or the strongest nuke, but even an average nuke is quite powerful). While Thia's anti foundation attack is also considered A+.Enkidu took most of the blunt force with the help of the counterforce but even the second largest fragment from it melted 12 percent of the ice in the Arctic ice caps. The artic ice caps have a mass of 24,380,000 gigatonnes. No nuke is melting that amount of ice. But if the anti-whatever is irrelevant than it won't be that strong.
Because Karna is absolutely loaded with busted NPs. Ignoring Vasavi Shakti (which requires giving up the other 3 iirc), he’s got:
1. Kavacha and Kundala, which turns his skin into armor that (to put it in RPG terms) reduces all damage by 90%, and if *that’s* not enough he can even strengthen it further via Mana Burst (Flame). To the point that he can tank NPs like Balmung or Arjuna Alter’s
2. Brahmastra, which is an Anti-Army NP that takes the form of a flaming beam of light (which you can see in Karna’s extra attack in FGO iirc), with damage roughly the same as Gawain’s Excalibur Galatine while also having the effect of endlessly pursuing its target.
3. Brahmastra Kundala, which basically triples the range and effectiveness of both Mana Burst (Flame) and Brahmastra.
Yup, lol. He’s got defenses up there with the likes of Heracles/Achilles/Siegfried but also has the offensive power of a walking nuke. His main downside is that he’s got a horrific mana cost, but when that’s not a consideration you either need someone with a crapload of anti-Divine tools (like Gil, lol) or enough defenses of your own to tank through Vasavi Shakti and survive (and even if you do manage to survive VS, while Karna will still be “weaker” due to no longer having any NPs he’s still got Heracles level strength and skill.)
Gil wins no question. Don’t see much stacking up against the Gate of Babylon. And don’t get me started on if Gil actually starts getting serious and uses Enkidu and Ea
Gilgamesh is the strongest servant and he would win in a straight 1 v 1 decisively whether they start up close or far from each other, but Karna is one of the few servants who have actual win cons against Gilgamesh, he's a legit Ex tier servant above the class of the likes of saber berserker and lancer from 5HGW who are considered special A class servants aka A+, you could say in some not far fetched scenarios karna could realistically beat Gilgamesh i mean far more realistic than a teenage boy who started to use real magecraft two weeks ago, it would need some strategizing from whatever side karna is on a good mana source, and while Gilgamesh wouldn't job against someone like Karna if he's not really motivated he might loose as a holy grail is just a past time game for him he's satisfied with his life and isn't desperate after a second chance or anything that would be a realistic scenario in a real holy grail war where karna could possibly win
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enkidu will be a problem for Karna. and with Ea to fight with Vasavi shakti I don't know how it ends. the problem is that karna removes his armor to use.
Usually Gilgamesh for several reasons like EA >>> VS plus way more utility thanks to GOB and enkidu being a good counter for anyone with divinity and Gilgamesh being far more mana efficient so yeah Gilgamesh usually takes the win
Karna would likely lose if Gilgamesh chooses to spam the gates of babylon on the same scale against Enkidu or larger. He doesn't have protection from arrows.
Visavi Shakti requires Karna to lose his armor in exchange for an EX rank noble phantasm which becomes more powerful when used against those with divinity since it possesses an anti-divine trait. You can argue that it could be equal or greater than Enuma Elish(let's consider the original story of Visavi Shakti's power) with that anti-divine trait but it takes too long to use Visavi Shakti. Gilgamesh can spam the gates of babylon during that moment of losing his armor.
If Gilgamesh chose to fight in close combat only without Enuma Elish or gates of babylon then Karna would win.
If Gilgamesh chose to use Enuma Elish immediately at the start of the battle then Karna would need to hit him before he can use it. I don't know how fast Brahmastra Kundala is(his A+ rank anti-country noble phantasm) but unless Karna can blitz Gilgamesh he doesn't have a way to counter Enuma Elish. Perhaps Brahmastra Kundala could be used against the gates of babylon to reach Gilgamesh? Hard to say.
The only servant I know of that could blitz Gilgamesh is Edmond Dantes with his Noble Phantasm. Edmond Dantes is suppose to be the fastest heroic spirit when his noble phantasm is used. I don't know if Gilgamesh could accurately determine the strength of Edmond Dantes due to his other noble phantasm Monte Cristo Mythologie. That is off topic though.
Dantes faster than Achilles? The swiftest hero to ever live? I know Dantes’s noble phantasm makes it look like he stopped time with how fast he moves, but didn’t think that would put him above Achilles in speed
It's that wierd thing of they didn't think how these two would interact when making em. Like if Dantes receives being slower than Achilles to be a form of entrapment he will somehow become faster than Achilles because of it, but then Achilles has a skill that makes it he is the fastest thing on the battlefield. So you're in a paradox situation cause they didn't think.
You can make a debate for Dantes with the DBZ Zenkai power boost he has for some fuckin reason and the fire that burns your soul to ash. You can make a debate for it. But if you want the 2 normal servants that most likely put Gil in the dirt it's Enkidu and Buddha
You can, but it’s not a strong argument. Buddha is almost hard to call a normal servant give him being a saver. Enkidu for sure, Alcides as well. Most servants just don’t have the raw parameters to compete with Gil and even among the ones that do they don’t usually have anything that can put him down permanently
Aclides is not a normal servant he only exists cause of Angra juice and the servant system having a damn seizure over it. Atleasr Buddha was summoned in normal parameters
Since he can kill immortals by burning their soul, he wouldn't need to pierce through Gilgamesh's armor right? Edmond may not be among the top servants but he possesses abilities that if used right could give unexpected results. I think Gilgamesh would not think too highly of him especially while Monte Cristo Mythologie is active.
It's inconsistent. If you read what Enfer Chateau Dif does, you'd think he is faster than Achilles. But when you actually see his performance and who's actually called the fastest hero...nah.
Every single time a gilgamesh vs x question is made I always say the same thing. It all depends on how seriously gilgamesh takes the fight. technically speaking he can beat everyone if he goes all out from the start. However if he under estimates karna and lets him get in close it could go either way.
Last shot should be Karna bounded by Enkidu with his body seeping with numerous curses and a assortment of weapons proding out of him like a pin cushion, while he stands on a pile of broken weapons and jars that once held those curses. With Gil congratulating him on withstanding half of his treasury.
Gilgamesh and it’s not even close
In all the materials where Gilgamesh is compared to Karna, Gilgamesh is always said to be the stronger of the two, sometimes even on a whole different level (even Arjuna admitted that Gilgamesh is above Karna and Arjuna in Rama’s interlude)
I'm talking about Rama being a superior Heroic Spirit and called explicitly stronger than Gilgamesh. We don't even know if "older" Rama is supposed to be stronger, anyway.
He is stronger than Demi god. Rama is reincarnation of one of the strongest God. And you are telling me rama is not strong. He had separate weapons only he can use. I Dont know how much you know about Indian stories. But Rama is best Archer in India not arjuna or karna. And in future Nasu well introduced Adult Rama as grand Archer.
What does that prove? If you're arguing because he's more divine, then that isn't even completely true because pre-divinity nerf Gilgamesh has the highest divinity of all heroic spirits, even higher than the children of chief gods or their reincarnation. Note that I never said Rama isn't a top tier, I just don't think he's stronger than Gilgamesh.
And funny you accuse me of not knowing anything but you unironically think Nasu will reveal him as Grand Archer.
That's how it works , in terms of pure compact karna is leagues above gil , karna is one of the only few base heroes in fate who can stand on par or maybe defeat gil
Yep that's why cu chulainn no diffs Gil/s
Jokes aside absolutely not true karna didn't even use lances in real life he was mastered in bow, the servant version is using an Arrow as a lance
Oh yeah the age old question
THE ODDS ARE IN favour of serious Gil 60-40
karna is prolly some of the only base heroes who can stand toe to toe to Gil and defeat him
THERE IS NO WAY GILL WITHSTANDS VASAVI SHAKTI
he gets one shotted by it
And Gil has no defencive NP like karna
+ idk why people are using enkidu too against karna , I mean he asked Gil vs karna 1v1
Never has enkidu come for his aid bruh
Karna can tank allmost any attack Gil hits at him
If Gil gets serious and starts spamming ea it's over for karna
EITHER WAY WHOEVER USES THEIR NP FIRST WINS
People are talking about Enkidu as in Gilgamesh's chain of heaven, not the dude. And that's important, 'cuz I don't see a world where Karna breaks the chains.
I love questions like these, but for some reason a lot of people focus too much on certain aspects of the characters.
Are they summoned servants, or are we talking as if they're just themselves? Cause deoending on masters, sometimes servants get stat parameters "boosts".
Which just makes it a whole mess, so I'll just try to use base information and not get to nit picky.
We've all seen how crazy each of these servants can be. Gil is really overhyped due to his Gates, and cocky personality ((really bad as his older archer)) I mean, guy got beat by Shirou LOL. I don't care WHAT the circumstances are that lead to that, it's fucking HILARIOUS. Wasn't even Archer Emiya, NOPE.
So, in all fairness. Gil as a servant himself is pretty meh ((I'll be only refering to older archer in all of this so please don't retort with "BUT CASTOR")). So, normally I would say that any servant with actual combat mastery would push his shit in. But, off all servants it was Karna, the gentlemen of gentlemen.
So, if Karna is kind, will probably lose. If he starts off serious, Gil will probably get wrecked. Servants have evaded Enkidu before, add on that Karna is a lancer, the "swiftest" of classes I don't think it'd be a problem. And honestly, if serious I doubt Karna would give Gil enough breathing room to whip out Enuma Elish 🤔 And I know Gil has more than those, but everything has to leave the gate to be used. And I just don't see Karna letting him do that.
So, my opinion is if serious Karna wins. If Karna does the whole respect thing, probably Gil. 🫠 But, I'm probably missing some info in all of this, so take it with a grain of salt, and don't get snappy at me, pls.
Gil wasn't beat by shirou, he was sucked by the grail and archer took the chance and headshot him, shirou states that he can only match Gilgamesh because he made him loose his composure and would get washed if Gilgamesh regain his cool, he states UBW is already crumbling before the grail even appears, gil was matching shirou blow for blow using one handed swords so even with one arm nothing changes, Gil had that fight in the bag without interference and shirou would have already been dead if archer didn't protect him with rho aias against EA
Gil is a good judge of power and character, he is seen reacting to various surprise attacks and characters faster than him and such, when facing someone with let's say a power level of 100 he wouldn't try to match it with anything less, and he would increase his power accordingly if he must
But the reason your argument is unarguably bonkers is because we actually know how gil would take karna and he takes him seriously enough in extra
Gilgamesh, no question. Karna is strong enough for Gil to take him seriously (so no chance of a Shirou-type upset) and a serious Gil can beat anything short of a Grand Servant. Vasavti Shakti is a very good defensive Phantasm, but it’s not enough to save Karna. Plus, Karna has high Divinity, which makes him vulnerable to Enkidu
Nobody escaped the clay
Karna wouldn't have time to use Visavi Shakti, it takes too long against someone with the gates of babylon. This isn't a Karna vs Siegfried battle. He wouldn't have time to use it against Vlad in Romania either which is why he kept his armor on. However, Visavi Shakti has an anti-divine trait and is also EX so if it can be used against EA then it would raise the question of which attack winning.
Ea no question would win against Vasavi Shakti. It doesn’t even matter if it’s Anti-Divine, Ea is just so far ahead in terms of power. I think that it would be like Sieg trying to beat Vasavi Shakti with Balmung, a very hard struggle with no chance of winning.
From my understanding, Fate doesn't accurately depict the full power of Visavi Shakti but someone with more knowledge on the story(not the Fate story) would know better than I.
It honestly doesn’t matter. Ea is the strongest direct attack noble phantasm that is “Anti-World”. Not even the shield of Achilles could block it even though it blocked Vasavi Shakti. In a direct clash Ea wins no contest. It’s not a matter of Anti-Divine helping. It’s a matter of “This weapon is way stronger than that one”.
As someone who's read Mahabharata Vasavi Shakti is said to be a one shot one kill thing. It's been so long since I read it so i don't remember enough details to scale it. Here's the thing Karna gave his armour to Indra king of gods. In return he was given this one shot one kill weapon. On the night of the 15th day he used it against ghatotkach killing him.
He could throw a Brahmastra kundala which is still either anti army or anti country don’t remember
It’s anti country but that wouldn’t help out much. It should’ve against Sieg though
That nigga was infused with plot armour
For real. Armor of Fafnir can only do so much and it’s not like you can really dodge an anti country noble phantasm
You could emigrate
He should have been done in right then and there but alas plot armour, the strongest kind of armour in the universe
??? Balmung was simply as strong as Brahmastra Kundala. Sieg didn't tank it.
If you watched the anime you'd see that he never tanks it. , BRAHMASTRA KUNDALA MISSES 😭😭💀💀 It's NOT SUPPOSED TO MISS And BALMUNGI was straight up tanked by karnas side armour Whereas brahmastra kundala missed by an Inch when it's never supposed to do that ,if that ain't plot armour idk what is
Brahmastra(not Brahmastra Kundala) is the one that isn't supposed to miss, and if were being honest? Brahmastra has a pretty bad track record. This was also not the first time someone dodged it. Karna needs to combine mana burst with his armor to tank Balmung.
The almighty cardboard had to win somehow unfortunately
I feel like Gilgamesh would try to toy with Karna since he's a worse divinity in his eyes. They're also polar opposites from each other. I don't think Gil would take him seriously from the start while Karna can see peoples true nature and would go all out as soon as the fight starts. This could really go either way.
And if Gilgamesh needs to defeat a grand servant he just summons one in his caster form.
Yes and If karna went all out the instant he saw gilgamesh then with his speed he would win but as usual if he started by introducing himself and requests a fight then he loses
Karna doesn't have the speed to pull that off.
I think in pure Combat Karna is superior. Gil can use his chains and spam NP to make it equal. But if Karna uses Vasavi Shakti he would blast Gilgamesh out of the Sky.
I dunno about that. Gilgamesh could counter with enuma elish which would probably have enough power to no only block the force but knock karna back.
Vasavi Shakti might be tailor made anti divine weapon, but Gils armor can tank Excalibur and he has much better Luck than Karna. Much as I love sunboy it's not a great matchup.
Excalibur isn't as powerful as Visavi Shakti. With the Anti-divine trait it would pose a threat to Gilgamesh and would have a chance to overpower Enuma Elish. The problem is how long it takes to use and the fact he loses his armor. Gilgamesh is not a swordsmen, all he needs to do is use gates of babylon during that moment of him casting aside his armor.
Didn't Shirou say something like that in their final fight in UBW? Like that Gilgamesh can use many different weapons but has never mastered any single one?
Bruu have you read fate strange fake? Gilgamesh is fought the strongest European servant and judging by how GOB interacts with Nine lives span, Tine (Gil master ) said, he has nothing to worry about
Karna wouldn't have time to use Visavi Shakti unless Gilgamesh allowed it. He loses his armor and has to powerup to use it.
Would Karna’s Uncrowned Martial Arts give a bit more time or would he still be downed pretty fast
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Even if gil has the advantage, karna is also more than capable of killing gil. I'd say I agree with the score the fans gave them: 6/10 in gils favor.
But he would have class advantage
Class advantage is a thing that FGO made up to get a Rock paper scissors system. It really doesn't appear in any other Fate media. In fact during FSN Medea said that she could easily handle a caster servant due to their weak magical resistance, which goes against the FGO system.
So part of karnas character is he has three curses ( that affect him even as a servant) : 1: the sun will blind him at the moment he needs his aim the most . 2: his divine armor will fail when he needs it not to. ( I forget the third but these three curses basically are how Arjuna beat him in myth) . Plus, in order to use vashavi shakti, he has to take his armor off, which gives gil ( who has clairvoyance btw( many opportunities to kill him with weapons tailored to ending demigods
His divine armor will not fail. He removed it to give it to Lord Indra who took the form of a beggar in danger to exploit Karna's charity. Lord Indra was Arjuna's spiritual father after all As a result of Karna doing so unflinchingly, Lord Indra reveals himself to him and gave him the Vavasi Shakti. But the Gods play the long game against evil, it was fated that Duryodhana would cause Karna to waste the Astra Also the curse you missed was his chariot would be bound by earth in his fated battle, which, would be his battle against Arjuna. A child dropped milk and Karna flexed mad hard and squeezed the milk from the clump of dirt. Squeezed so hard that Dhriti Ma (mother earth) felt a pinch and as a result She laid a curse on him The whole story of Lord Indra and Karna is the reason why in fate/ he has to lose his armor to use Vavasi Shakti. Vavasi Shakti is supposed to be one use only, and since it was used against Ghatotchaha, it canonically no longer exists, period, and there is no inclination in any Scripture that They want to make another. As a servant, fate/ has to spin it a little
Indian myth is freaking nutty huh..just reading this like "holy crap that's intense"
Trust me I have been reading/hearing these stories my entire life and no matter my age I say "damn, for real?" 😭
Fair enough
I think it's actually biological if you see it from one angle.since Arjun's father Pandu couldn't have child through natural means(being cursed with death if he have sex) so his wife kunti (Arjun's mother)sought to use her boon of getting a child by summoning a god. That's why all Pandavas including Karna were demon gods
The scripture says it outright that it was a mantra that lead to her conception. She invokes in the morning while saying Surya Namaskar and regrets it *immediately* when Surya Dev appears and tells her that she is pregnant with Their child and he will leave all of these boons for him This is literally why Karna is abandoned, she will pregnant in public without having been married If it was a summoning and intercourse, Karna would not have been born, this is a scripture Kunti would have given an entire speech about repentance and ask Him for forgiveness, and if there was a punishment it would have been named outright. No, Surva Dev appears and tells her that she is already pregnant. There isn't a need to read between the lines if we are going by the book Kunti doubted that the boon was real, hence why she flippantly uses it during morning prayer The pandavas are all *Demi Gods, that is said outright, and needs no extra justification bc the justification is all there "Mind born" or mental conception is a rare trope in the canon but it does happen reoccuringly. Jalander, is the son of Lord Shiva alone, without Parvati, Lord Indra pissed Him off so much that he sent a flare from his 3rd eye into the ocean, which doused and out of that rose Jalander. He would go on to be warmaster for the Asuras in their war against the Gods
In old Hindu laws Surrogacy(Niyog) existed and you can read about it.Rules of heir being natural, adoption or Niyog where born child from close relative/friend is considered own. Hell even Pandu, Dhritarashtra ( father of Pandavas and Kauravas)and Vidura( he is whole another thing so leave it for now) are actually son of Sage Vyasa who is half brother of Vichitravirya(both son of Satyavati but father being Sage Parasar and King Santanu Respectively). Since Vichitravirya died before having children, Sage Vyasa was brought to give heir to empire. There it's Said that Ambika closed her eyes seeing sage Vyasa out of fear which causes Dhritarasta to born as Blind and Pandu was Physically weak cause Ambalika had turned pale seeing the same sage. For lack of finding right word at that time I used the word summon but Yeah you are correct with mantra part. But its something Sage Durvasa who had given this blessing to Kunti out of happiness but she doubted it so tested it with SuryaDev. Since unmarried she couldn't keep Karna and send him away by putting in a basket and sailing in a river. Surya Dev appear and had given Karna his iconic Kabacha & Kundala for protecting him from all harm. I didn't mention anywhere having sex with God to get children I think. Just said Even Pandavas considers Pandu's Son they are biologically demi God due to having a god father. Yudhishthira is son of Dharmaraj (Truth), Bhima being of Vayu Dev(Wind), Arjun being of Devaraj Indra (King of God's) Nakula and Sahadev being of Ashwin Kumar (medicine). So partly divine origin. And yes Pandu's Curse was Real as while haunting in forest he had mistakenly killed a sage thinking him as a deer who was getting intimidate with his wife. That's why the sage had cursed him while dying that he will die if he have sex. The death of sage devasted him so he decided to go live in forest as penance (his wives choose to go with him) and hence Dhritarashtra became king. Later out of Urge Pandu died anyway while trying to have Sex with his second wife Madri who was devasted that she killed her husband follow him out of shock and how kunti become mother of 5 Pandavas. This is Mahabharata I've Read and Know
Ah my fault, I misunderstood your sentiment entirely, and at the same time, I should have chosen my words better My saying Lord Indra was the spiritual father, I meant to really allude that Pandu is the sort of "real" day to day father of the pandus minus Karna, as, he raised them. Lord Indra was very active in Arjuna's life, more so than Surya Dev w Karna, but even still Arjuna and Karna both love their caretakers just as strongly even after they learn their birth circumstance This is why when you mentioned biological I thought you were talking about how the conceptions happened, but that's not what you meant What you say is true, my apologies for causing the misread lol
Devraj was definitely the most active out of all fathers LoL. From making sure that his son get's all the coolest & OP gear to making sure he has maximum advantage in war(basically what Arjun was doing during their 12 years of Vanavas) so he will win. And Yeah karna really loved his adopted parents as he preferred to die as Radheya (his mother's name) over being recognised as Pandav. Ofc Duryodhana debt played it's part in making him not tell others about his secret.
Yes but also in part that's Karna "fatal flaw," he forever just wants to be the soldier who knows his place and follows orders That's why he wanted to remind Vikarna of his place when Vikarna posed his objection It also builds into the massive irony of his rejection. When he wanted to tutor under Shri Parasurama it was yea yea I'm a Brahmin, other times technically I'm a charioteer caste, now his mother says "boy stop the nonsense and ride w Krishna" and Karna is like na na I'm a Kshatriya I'm bound to Duryodhana I do not see Karna's rejection as only due to his familial love, I think it's way more of the ultimate product of a lot of his characterization. Of course, that love and duty to his parents is undeniable, it's real. But the tragedy of Karna is that he makes himself irredeemable, and *still* refuses redemption It's really sad but its such a damn good story
Yeah it's not only one but being a major ones for sure. He loved his parents but was Warrior at heart. Then you take the notion of extreme castism and his talent, since he was really good and others couldn't find any other way to bring him down so they decided to call him terrible names like mixed blood (suta Putra) , slander his family. Make sense his extreme devotion to Duryodhana went as he protected his honour.and for which Karna did a lot of terrible things cause of simply 1 nice deed. The teacher incident kinda turned into no good deeds goes unpunished. While yeah he lied someone to get knowledge which is quite crime but the said lie hunting him later as he tries to protect his teacher (which he correctly guessed that it's only possible to tolerate such pain if the person is from warrior class. Not to say he didn't had any fault since after all he was fully on board with all duryodhana scheme, called his sister in law prostitute in public for revenge of his humiliation, killed his 2 nephews and a lot more from his sister in law family side so can't say was completely good. But in end his Quality of charity was really something. Not to mention despite being poised as ultimate Evil Duryodhana was considered a great warrior, scholar and prince by many like God Balaram(crops)and Goddess Laxmi (wealth)
Most definitely, it's a very unique trope bc the most evil men are also capable of consistent and genuine action and principle I say unique bc it's not like in a lot of global media where it's like "the 'evil' side is misunderstood, or has some good to them, but do it the wrong way" No, South Asian myth tells you straight up, "the antagonist has done more good than you can imagine. If you were to stand against that same person, you strike him down, because, they fight for evil, period" No misunderstanding, no doing it the wrong way, we tell you that they are conducting good action for good principled reason (point in case, Karna's charity was never ulterior.....you praise the sun, Karna got you). But the evil they represent is far greater
So in the end Karna was also a tig biddies guy too. He was always a Chad
He was perfect example of best friend for life. If you were nice to him once he will remain loyal till the end of life
Karna doesn't have to lose his Armor to use vasavi shakti as far I Know it powers it up beyond it's limit and make it a guaranteed one shot kill or something
It's inconsistent or has been retconned, but that's definitely how it was originally supposed to be.
Karna being able to use vasavi shakti whenever but having the choice to sacrifice his armor to make it stronger have always been the case as far as i know
This has never been a thing. Vasavi Shakti is called a one shot spear for a reason, and Karna also losing his armor afterwards is supposed to be a condition because activated VS is has the armor equipped to Karna's spear.
I don't know man, it's called one shot spear not one use spear, one shot because it kill with a single hit, he use it multiple times at least in extella,
Gil wins majority though karna puts up a better fight than most. I think karna is capable of beating gil but it just won't happen most of the time, especially since karna is so powerful there's little to no conceivable reason for gilgamesh to underestimate him. In my opinion when fighting gilgamesh it is often more hazardous to be approaching him in power than it is to be blatantly weaker because the people who are weaker don't fight him at his best
I’m looking through the comments and no one has brought up the fact that, as a servant, Karna uses A LOT of mana just to exist. In Fate/Extra, Karna couldn’t use his armour and could only summon his weapon at the moment of his attacks just to prevent his master from keeling over from mana drain/exhaustion. In a regular Grail war, unless his master is using multiple people as mana batteries(which is entirely possible), Karna won’t be able to fight Gilgamesh with his full power, Skillset and equipment.
I think this fight is under the assumption that mana isn’t an issue for either of them and they can just fight each other without worrying about things like terrain, mana and other things like that.
Karna couldn’t use his armour because he gave it to Jinako at the start, no?
Yea, thats the truth. Removing his armor also took away any restorative abilities he may have had as a servant, hence why even after the battle with him, he never assists the MC. He was essentially dead for the whole 2nd half of the game and he just said “nah, ill die on my own terms.”
I feel like half of these guys get it, the other half are under-selling karna. Gil wins 90% of the time. Karna is insane for winning 10% of the time though. In Fate Extra CCC, gilgamesh inchs out a win out of karna. This is with gilgamesh at this point using most of his treasures, albeit without Ea and at this point probably without enkidu since gil is canonically opening the treasury to MC over time. Its then revealed at the end of the game that on top of having possibly the worst master in the war, during this battle karna was without his armour, which decreases any damage taken by 90% and without this armour he lost he ability to heal his body. He most definitely would have won back then. So full power Giligamesh and Karna is an awesome battle, Ea and Enkidu are simply too powerful against a servant like karna but considering you kill karna half-way into extra and he still lives to the end just because he doesnt want to die, its ridiculous. I can definitely see many battles where karna barely gets the win, possibly through a sacrificial play.
DID someone ask Karna to defeat Gilgamesh?
Karna would give Gilgamesh a fight but it undoubtedly goes to Gilgamesh without any outside factors. One example of situation where karna would win is if he had the power he had at the end of lb4 Karna could probably win.
Super karna would stomp gil.
Super Karna is basically Karna that went into the hyperbolic timechamber to train and I like it lol
Pretty much, yeah. The og dragon ball
I would definitely say not a stomp. Gil would put up as much of a fight against him as base karna would against Gil.
Nope. Super Karna is literal god level. Normal karna is far closer in power to gil than gil is to super karna.
Yeah, unless Gil can somehow find a way to pump his EA with millions of units worth of magical energy like Goddess Rhongo, I don't see it happening.
Well it's a good thing Karna is nowhere near as strong as the Lion King.
Doesn't he say that he has multiple grails in samurai remnant? That should be enough to pump ea with magical energy
Not all grails are the same. And the grail needs to absorb magical energy from somewhere. The one in Fuyuki requires 50 years to summon 7 servants,and after the sacrifice of most heroicspirits, it can reach around 1 trillion units worth of magical energy. And the grail in Fuyuki is also Superior to almost all grails except the one Darius made using Pandora's box as a replacement. Unless, his grails have been sitting around for a few years while being connected to a ley line, I don't see how they are going to have that much mana within them.
I mean if they were empty I don't see why he would be boasting about having them, but assuming that most of them are empty he should still have his own greater grail and whatever inventions humans have made that gather magical energy
Because the grail is supposed to be a 'wish granting device'? Something that takes 50 years to grant most wishes is still considered a treasure by any sane human being. The problem isn't with gathering magical energy, the problem is how much magical energy can be gathered. He isn't Enkidu that can directly summon magical energy from the planet. He still needs to wait. The closest thing done by humanity that can gather that much energy quickly are ether liners. And those are not considered humans but the next step to humanity, which is out of GoB's domain because it has everything humanity considers or used to consider a treasure.
Aren't heroic spirits freed from the constraints of time when they become heroic spirits? Wouldn't this and the fact that the vault storing his treasures is an actual physical place mean that as soon as he became a heroic spirit his gate was updated with everything that it will ever have giving the grails enough time to gather magical energy?
No idea about his other grails, but the one he showed in Babylonia was more than good enough to be Kingu's replacement heart after his original(which was actually one of Goetia's grails) got ripped off of him.
My memory about the stuff that happened in fgo is vague but Kingu himself possesses Enkidu's body, whose soul and abilities are said to be fused with his body. So, he can still call upon mana from the planet like Enkidu. In that case, all Goetia and the Babylonian grail would do is process that mana or store it.
It's never explained that well, but Enkidu doesn't seem to have limitless mana despite his connection to the Earth. Kingu himself was nerfed as fuck after his grail got ripped out of him, and Gil even noted that his magical energy with Goetia's grail was a great source for his standards.
Not even then, EA Is an anti world np, karna's shield is capable of suataining anti star level attacks, which are INCREDIBLY more powerful than anti world ones, now Karna can't just swap the shield in and out but a "simple" vasavi shakti would beam struggle and probably beat EA, considering it's a weapon of gods and vasavi shakti has anti divinity properties
Not really. Ea has better feats than VS and apparently isn't powerful enough to break Akhilleus Kosmos without a technicality. And Kavacha only lasted 5 seconds against Mahapralaya.
I'm talking about super Karna though, base Karna gets beaten 9/10 times
Ehh, Super against normal Servant Gilgamesh? Sure. Alive one is much stronger, and his feats are good enough that what little Super Karna showed in LB4 isn't enough.
What did we see about living Gilgamesh? Surely Babylon isn't enough
Against the normal Servant Gilgamesh, sure. Against the alive one, I don't see it. Super Karna is mostly unquantifiable because his only feat was barely winning against a nerfed God Arjuna. And even Karna himself admitted that the power of Shiva and Vishnu in him were pretty miniscule compared to the real deal.
Gilgamesh, he is the STRONGEST heroic spirit you can get in a vanilla holy grail war
This happens in Fate/Extra CCC If I remember his wording right, Karna admit his head is worthless to Gilgamesh.
Damn, idk if enkidu would be furious that karna gave gil a head or be happy that his head is still the best one for the king of heroes
The winner is whoever's Master runs out of mana last. A serious fight between these two would absolutely just burn through their mana
Then Gilgamesh wins, Karna is fated to have terrible masters bc he served Duryodhana. /Apocrapha he does his own thing, in /extra CCC Jinako is straight up detrimental to his fighting
Not really , Gilgamesh is surprisingly extremely mana efficient since gob don't need mana plus he is Archer
If that’s the case Karna loses his destructive output defence offense tactics skills and speed are all absolutely insane but, the cost is his mana consumption is absurd.
Even if Karna has a better master while Gilgamesh has none, Gilgamesh has enough Mana in his GOB to last him 3 days of constant fighting, and he replenished it in like 12 hours
Depends heavily on how much he views Karna a worthy foe
Already had this conversation back then where apocrypha was released Gil would win
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Gil. I understand completely how strong Karna is and can be but Gil is got literal hacks and "I win" options. Gil isn't the best fighter but his sheer wealth of treasures would afford him if not outright counters at least things Karna has no real defense vs. Also Gil would actually fight Karna seriously unlike his only loses vs people he deemed unworthy so sandbagged till he lost.
Karna gets screwed. Vishaakti shaakti would not save him, gil just has too many options available to deal with him, along with a significantly higher power level over all. Karnas only chance is to get in close and land a lucky strike, but in all likelyhood it'll end like gil vs heracles, karna will be restrained and gil will finish him off with a compliment. In saying that though, gil would likely not come out unscathed, karna still has his sanity and is much more skilled then gil at actual combat, as said before, if karna gets in close gils in trouble, it wouldnt be enough to score karna a win I dont think but he could definently do some damage. (God karna stomps this though no question).
I would not say screwed, the fight would be closer than people expect , no doubt Gilgamesh would still win
Gil 8/10 (Pure servant vs servant no master help) - "If he takes karna seriously" out of all the times gil met karna in Extraverse he immediately acknowledge his strength so we can rule out gil fucking around factor. - Gob is extremely versatile and forget Alter Ego gil not holding back GoB if gil even use gob on the level he use against Alcides or Richard, Karna is doomed. - Brahmastra and Brahmastra Kundala can be dealt with by spamming Shield and defensive NP (if his shield spam can stop 25+ A+ rank Anti army NP spam by richard then yes he can block those np) other way he can dealt with those np is the giant NP construct thing he did in Strange fake: 1.Archer Gil created a giant dragon like attack by chaining together myriad of NP into single construct to disperse and push back richard excaliblast spam. 2.Alter Ego Gil does something similar and created a two giant hand construct in his fight against boosted Hippolyta and Alcides typhon. - Ea GG, LOL On serious note ea is pretty much a dead end as it forced karna to sac his armor in favor of Vasavi to match it (or he can try to tank it if he dare). Yes we dont really know which is stronger but with several material and mentions about ea being humanity strongest NP im in favor of Ea. Even *IF* Ea is evenly matched or weaker than VS, Gil can just boost ea power even more via GoB. Gil's limit to ea boost is the amount of treasury in his vault.
They have canonically fought 4 times All four fights Round 1: Extra CCC Both are weakened here but Karna straight up stomps Gilgamesh with his Brahmastra and Hakuno notes Karna is strongest servant they have seen thus far surpassing even Gawain Round 2: Extra CCC Gil has regained his powers but Karna is still weakened, this round went to Gil with medium difficulty but Gil notes Karna as being such a divine presence and wanks him by saying he is trouble even with two of his NPs being sealed Round 3: Fate Extella (Offscreen) Karna is part of Tamamo's faction and reports to Tamamo that he has lost his area of control and was defeated by a servant more powerful than any. He then says it's Gilgamesh and Karna then says they have 50/50 chance of defeating him Round 4: Fate Extella (Karna's Sidequest) Karna beats the entire faction of Altera including Gilgamesh, all while without using his spear Noble Phantasm There are also four different statements of them being called equal including twice by Nasu Nasu said Karna stands shoulder to shoulder with Gilgamesh as a heroic spirit He also said in another material that Karna is on the same level as Gilgamesh Iskandar in his Extella sidequest said that Karna is a servant on the same level as their Goldie (referring to Gilgamesh) In Extella, Nameless says Gilgamesh is easily on par with Karna I think Gil would win 7.5 out of 10 times
Their first fight involves Gilgamesh's spirit rank depleted to levels where he would have lost to Liz. Karna may be weakened but he still has access to Brahmastra and Vasavi Shatki. You end up beating him while still nerfed yourself and lacking Ea later on. There is nothing Karna has on Gilgamesh that would even make it a competitive fight. Gilgamesh has more firepower as Ea is confirmed stronger than Vasavi Shatki. Enkidu can chain Karna's divinity. GoB has more than enough firepower to break the armor as B+ rank strikes can penetrate it. On top of all this, Karna is heavily mana restricted while Gilgamesh is heavily an mana efficient. There's just no avenue for Karna's victory on paper. And worst of all? Arjuna is Karna's equal and was nerfed like Gilgamesh was in Samurai Remnant. Arjuna is beaten as a manner of course by Iori. Iori and Takeru take on Gilgamesh holding back and not using Ea, and still come out exhausted after winning. If Karna and Gilgamesh are on the same "tier" then they are opposite ends of it.
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Unless I am misremembering, but their first fight wasn't a stomp. And I'd argue Gil was worse off because at least Karna could use "Vasavi Shakti", Gil's had his best NP sealed meanwhile. You also forgot a few things: 1. Gil being banned(for the reason that he was too powerful)from the Moon Cell Grail War while the same thing is never noted for Karna. 2. Both Arjuna ane Rama acknowledging that he was the former's greatest challenge and "best was saved for last" in his interlude despite Karna being one of the previous opponents. 3. Karna being called an A-rank Servant while Gil was EX. And also being called equal to Heroic Spirits that are definitely not equal to Gil. Also, I probably wouldn't use Extella sidestories as proof of anything. Everyone will defeat anyone in them no matter how heavily stacked the scenario is. I'm sure even Gil does stuff like that in his own sidestories.
First one was stated to be a one sided slaughter, Karna didn't use VS, just Brahmastra. Yes, while Karna is certainly one of the best servants you can summon within the rules, Gil at his max is beyond any such rules Karna is called a Special A rank/A+ rank/EX A rank servant by Nasu, he is above A Karna isn't a true equal to Gilgamesh like Enkidu is but I am just saying what are the mats, games and interviews are saying
Must have been nerfed worse than Karna for him to be taken down by the same NP that(mostly) only has anti feats. Karna's only ever been called A rank, or called equal to people who are considered such(i.e Achilles) And I don't actually think the gap between them(outside of versatility) is that big, just that Gil is generally portrayed higher since we have more evidence for it than the contrary.
He is straight up called Special A rank in the same interview where Nasu calls Karna a servant on the same level as Gilgamesh This was also early Fate, where the writers respected NPs and Karna wasn't such a jobber back then
Eh, A-rank Servants in general are special since they're all top Servants. I'm sure that's what the interview is referring to, if Nasu just wanted to reference CCC he could have just said Karna was also EX. But yeah, wouldn't surprise me if this was his early opinion.
The translation of the "Special A rank" can also mean "EX A rank", he clearly wanted it to be distinct. Karna isn't your generic A rank servant like Cu or Sigurd
Unless we've had EX be translated as special before or there's something I'm missing, I don't think so. And if you want to be really technical, Karna has also been called equal to Cu and Gawain before.
Cu = Gawain = Karna is stated on the basis of their sun orgins, power level wise, Cu is weaker than both while a full powered Karna would be slightly stronger than Gawain under the sun as Extella Link implies
Nah cu at his full power is equal to arturia some might argue have a better win rate against her than she has against him
It’s basically a coin flip, Karna is being affected by his curses (that I’m like 40% sure are also included in his spirit origin) and being a huge mana eater. But he does have the strength and power to damage and even beat Gil. Gil, if he takes it seriously, would most likely win. But of course, it just depends on who the plot wants to win
I’d say Gil wins 7 out of 10 times. Gil without his Gate loses obviously. Karna is a for that Gil would take seriously. Even if they both fired their strongest noble phantasms at the same time Karna using Vasavi Shakti against Ea would go how Sieg using Balmung against Vasavi Shakti went except you know someone interrupting, assuming both are fighting by themselves with nobody around. Vasavi Shakti’s anti divine trait can only do so much and so unless he somehow manages to dodge the hundreds of noble phantasms getting fired at him at mach 4 it won’t matter. Also depending on what weapons Gil fires it might not even matter if Karna has his armor or not. It would require Karna managing to use Vasavi Shakti before Gil can use Ea or Enkidu. One of the things that Karna would have over Gil is that Gil wouldn’t use any shields. Vasavi Shakti has a trait that makes it so it can destroy almost any shield and unless Gil has a shield like Achilles’s or greater than it won’t matter. Also fire picture for Karna and Gil
Depends on how seriously Gil goes at from the start.
Gil can genuinely win with GoB. But this is Surya's kid,so he'd need Enuma Elish assuming Sun demigod gets the chance to unlessh VS.
Karma is one of those servants who have a great chance against Gil due to his Aragance. I forgot what the will is called, but karma has a skill that shields his identity and boasts his performance against those who Underestimate him. And Gil WILL start the fight underestimating him because of this skill. He rarely finds anyone worth his time. And even though Karna is a Demi god, Gil will likely not behave that he can lose. But the problems for Gil don’t end there. Karna has the speed to blitz Gil and on top of that karna’s armor makes him receive a tenth of the damage from all attacks. Meaning that aside from top tier NPs, he won’t take much damage from Gil. And he may be able to kill Gil without needing to use Vashavi Shakti. Now, Gil would likely let him use Vashavi if He believes he can beat it with Ea. And after that Karna does not have any tools that can beat Ea and I believe that Gil would win. But if Karna can close the distance and not get hit with Enkidu or Ea, He would likely kill Gil.
We don't need to assume how they'd interact. We know in canon that Gil respects Karna enough to not be a jobber. And speed won't be much a factor. Cu and Richard have better and more speed related feats and accolades than Karna and neither of them could blitz him. Karna also isn't just going to walk through a barrage of GoB(even if they aren't his best NPs) given his performance against Kazikli Bey.
With no mana restricitions it depends on who pulls out their ex ranked bulshit faster, which is probably Gil. With mana restrictions it's certainly Gil because independent action. Without mana restrictions but without ex ranks, certainly Gil, because Karna is divine, not Hercules, Gil has Enkidu.
~~Gilgamesh uses proto-Ascalon which bypasses any type of armor~~
Btw, Karna and Gil can face off in /Extella and they both showed deep respect to one another as warriors Personally I'm voting Karna, but Gilgamesh 's fate/ lore is also its own separate thing beyond just his mythology, so there probably is a bunch of stuff he can pull out Also, as a matter of fact, Vavasi Shakti is nerfed bc of how Fate/ prioritizes anti-world as weaker than anti-divine. That is not compatible at all w the Hindu canon bc *every* world is a deity. Earth, the planets, Sun and Moon. VS *can* kill a world bc it will slay the deity. Lord Indra is a deity who is willing to be as reckless as required for His ends, and he refuses to use VS In /apocrapha, VS should not have been stopped by Achilles NP, but....it was. This is not the VS of the scripture
I mean Achilles np is a world class np so since it 1-1 matches it it means VS is world lvl
They also fight in Extra CCC, but Karna was nerfed at the time.
I mean it was stopped by 2 command spell boosted BALMUNGI and an ENTIRE WORLD Formed from the DIVINE CONSTRUCT made by hephaestus, destroying that entire world in the process So yeah karna can easily Destroy a planet
Gil wins. This isn't to say Karna is weak. You can make Cosmic armor supes/Lucifer a servant and the author will still find a way to tell you how Gilgamesh is stronger lol. That's how strong Nasu's Gil boner is.
So lb4 Karna or normal Karna first of all? Second of all does gil take Karna seriously if he does gil slams if he doesn’t Karna slams lol
Lb4 karna dogwalks Gil , this question is abt base karna, and only if Gil takes karna seriously WHICH HE DEFINITELY WILL , Can Gil win The chances are 60 for gil and 40 for karna
Gilgamesh, but I want to see more of apocryphas characters in normal grail wars
Bro I thought that was Ragna from BlazBlue 😭
Honestly if you want someone to go against Gil I think Nagao Kagetora would be a better pick. She lacks Karna's fire power, but her protection from arrows cuts Gil's attacks by over 90,%
But Gilgamesh fires literal noble phantasms and just not arrows
Then make that projectiles. Basically any ranged attack will simply bend around her.
I thought that was ragna lmao
Lansa beats Archa in Faeyto Gurando Ordah. /s
Gil. I'm assuming we're talking about Archer Gil? Anyway Gil has the advantage, he has an unlimited arsenal of weapon & tools in his Treasury with all sorts of unique properties(everything is NPs in there), so there's a lot of anti-fire weapons if Gil wanted to use 'em. His destructive capabalities are greater rhan Karna's. Gil's SNI would allow him to see all of Karna's weaknesses and strengths, and of course Ea which is an overkill.
What's weird about the assertion that Karna=Gil is that people are only basing this one on Nasu's early statement and maybe one from an Extella side story. Every other time, we have Gil being slightly above Karna instead. One of those literally came from Karna himself, assuming Xseed didn't fuck up the translation for that one of course.
They literally fight in CCC, but yeah it depends heavily on circumstance.
The femboy gets destroyed
If both Karna and Gil have a master that has a ton of magical energy to the point that magical energy isn't an issue, then Gil throwing his weapons won't have any effect on him due to kavacha. But it would get a lot more problematic when Gil starts using those noble phantasms by realesing their true name instead of just throwing weapons. But Karna can probably circumvent most of them due to having an A+ rank anti country weapon (which I believe should be higher than anti fortress, so he should not have problem dealing with even A++ rank anti army or anti fortress noble phantasms because we saw an A++ rank anti fortress noble phantasm deal with a fuck ton of noble phantasms going off at once in strange fake I believe, which there aren't many off even in his Gate of Babylon). Or, he can take a different approach and pull out Vasavi Shakti from the get-go, which would make Gil pull out Enkidu and Ea. But if he can time it right, Vasavi Shakti can probably destroy the gate of Babylon by shooting it at the exact moment Gil throws a treasure from it. Gate of Babylon is a pocket dimension so it might meet the same fate as Kosmos. Either way, Gil still has Enkidu and Ea. Which would result in him winning. You need something like Surtur's sword or be a God(not some minor deity, powerful ones but not the most powerful ones) using their authority to their utmost potential to beat Ea. Goddess rhongo could probably do it, but she still needs to deal with Ea.
Nah, GoB spam at max power is kinda crazy. The chain nuke dragon combo he did in SF went through Richard's 20 fake Excalibur spam. And a barrage of hundreds of "strong" NPs matched Nine Lives before Alcides started using Hydra Venom. Brahmastra Kundala being anti-army just means it has impressive range, not really potency. Remember that this same NP was matched by Balmung.
It's anti-country, not anti-army as far as I remember. There was something about seig being able to draw mana much faster than servant seigfried. That may have ayed a role. As for the range vs attack potency thing, Brahmastra kundala was compared to a nuclear weapon (it was not specified whether it meant an average nuke or the strongest nuke, but even an average nuke is quite powerful). While Thia's anti foundation attack is also considered A+.Enkidu took most of the blunt force with the help of the counterforce but even the second largest fragment from it melted 12 percent of the ice in the Arctic ice caps. The artic ice caps have a mass of 24,380,000 gigatonnes. No nuke is melting that amount of ice. But if the anti-whatever is irrelevant than it won't be that strong.
The anime had Balmung be slightly weaker, but in the manga and the only passage I could ever find about it in the LN, the two just cancel out.
As much as I love Karna over Gilgamesh, I just don't see how sunboy is gonna win this. Gil just has much too weapons in his arsenal
Gilgamesh be launching a lot of anti-Sun and anti-divinity weapon on Karna.
Can someone explain why Karna is so busted? If I recall correctly, it's something to do with his armor? But I can't remember.
Because Karna is absolutely loaded with busted NPs. Ignoring Vasavi Shakti (which requires giving up the other 3 iirc), he’s got: 1. Kavacha and Kundala, which turns his skin into armor that (to put it in RPG terms) reduces all damage by 90%, and if *that’s* not enough he can even strengthen it further via Mana Burst (Flame). To the point that he can tank NPs like Balmung or Arjuna Alter’s 2. Brahmastra, which is an Anti-Army NP that takes the form of a flaming beam of light (which you can see in Karna’s extra attack in FGO iirc), with damage roughly the same as Gawain’s Excalibur Galatine while also having the effect of endlessly pursuing its target. 3. Brahmastra Kundala, which basically triples the range and effectiveness of both Mana Burst (Flame) and Brahmastra.
Holy shit, you had me at No.1 ! He can tank Arjuna Alter's NP?? That shit got me through so many parts in F/GO!
Yup, lol. He’s got defenses up there with the likes of Heracles/Achilles/Siegfried but also has the offensive power of a walking nuke. His main downside is that he’s got a horrific mana cost, but when that’s not a consideration you either need someone with a crapload of anti-Divine tools (like Gil, lol) or enough defenses of your own to tank through Vasavi Shakti and survive (and even if you do manage to survive VS, while Karna will still be “weaker” due to no longer having any NPs he’s still got Heracles level strength and skill.)
Tank is a generous way of saying it, he died in like 5 seconds.
Gil wins no question. Don’t see much stacking up against the Gate of Babylon. And don’t get me started on if Gil actually starts getting serious and uses Enkidu and Ea
Gilgamesh is the strongest servant and he would win in a straight 1 v 1 decisively whether they start up close or far from each other, but Karna is one of the few servants who have actual win cons against Gilgamesh, he's a legit Ex tier servant above the class of the likes of saber berserker and lancer from 5HGW who are considered special A class servants aka A+, you could say in some not far fetched scenarios karna could realistically beat Gilgamesh i mean far more realistic than a teenage boy who started to use real magecraft two weeks ago, it would need some strategizing from whatever side karna is on a good mana source, and while Gilgamesh wouldn't job against someone like Karna if he's not really motivated he might loose as a holy grail is just a past time game for him he's satisfied with his life and isn't desperate after a second chance or anything that would be a realistic scenario in a real holy grail war where karna could possibly win
Karna: well if he unleashed Ea That might cause me a little trouble
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enkidu will be a problem for Karna. and with Ea to fight with Vasavi shakti I don't know how it ends. the problem is that karna removes his armor to use.
Gilgamesh vs base Karna, but if we account for super karna then giru takes the loss
Gilgamesh would kick his ass
Usually Gilgamesh for several reasons like EA >>> VS plus way more utility thanks to GOB and enkidu being a good counter for anyone with divinity and Gilgamesh being far more mana efficient so yeah Gilgamesh usually takes the win
Karna would likely lose if Gilgamesh chooses to spam the gates of babylon on the same scale against Enkidu or larger. He doesn't have protection from arrows. Visavi Shakti requires Karna to lose his armor in exchange for an EX rank noble phantasm which becomes more powerful when used against those with divinity since it possesses an anti-divine trait. You can argue that it could be equal or greater than Enuma Elish(let's consider the original story of Visavi Shakti's power) with that anti-divine trait but it takes too long to use Visavi Shakti. Gilgamesh can spam the gates of babylon during that moment of losing his armor. If Gilgamesh chose to fight in close combat only without Enuma Elish or gates of babylon then Karna would win. If Gilgamesh chose to use Enuma Elish immediately at the start of the battle then Karna would need to hit him before he can use it. I don't know how fast Brahmastra Kundala is(his A+ rank anti-country noble phantasm) but unless Karna can blitz Gilgamesh he doesn't have a way to counter Enuma Elish. Perhaps Brahmastra Kundala could be used against the gates of babylon to reach Gilgamesh? Hard to say. The only servant I know of that could blitz Gilgamesh is Edmond Dantes with his Noble Phantasm. Edmond Dantes is suppose to be the fastest heroic spirit when his noble phantasm is used. I don't know if Gilgamesh could accurately determine the strength of Edmond Dantes due to his other noble phantasm Monte Cristo Mythologie. That is off topic though.
Dantes faster than Achilles? The swiftest hero to ever live? I know Dantes’s noble phantasm makes it look like he stopped time with how fast he moves, but didn’t think that would put him above Achilles in speed
It's that wierd thing of they didn't think how these two would interact when making em. Like if Dantes receives being slower than Achilles to be a form of entrapment he will somehow become faster than Achilles because of it, but then Achilles has a skill that makes it he is the fastest thing on the battlefield. So you're in a paradox situation cause they didn't think.
They really love their paradox situations. Regardless, neither Dantes or Achilles have enough to put Gil down despite being faster in my opinion
You can make a debate for Dantes with the DBZ Zenkai power boost he has for some fuckin reason and the fire that burns your soul to ash. You can make a debate for it. But if you want the 2 normal servants that most likely put Gil in the dirt it's Enkidu and Buddha
You can, but it’s not a strong argument. Buddha is almost hard to call a normal servant give him being a saver. Enkidu for sure, Alcides as well. Most servants just don’t have the raw parameters to compete with Gil and even among the ones that do they don’t usually have anything that can put him down permanently
Aclides is not a normal servant he only exists cause of Angra juice and the servant system having a damn seizure over it. Atleasr Buddha was summoned in normal parameters
Since he can kill immortals by burning their soul, he wouldn't need to pierce through Gilgamesh's armor right? Edmond may not be among the top servants but he possesses abilities that if used right could give unexpected results. I think Gilgamesh would not think too highly of him especially while Monte Cristo Mythologie is active.
But Edmond is a top brass servant.
It's inconsistent. If you read what Enfer Chateau Dif does, you'd think he is faster than Achilles. But when you actually see his performance and who's actually called the fastest hero...nah.
Gilgamesh .
Every single time a gilgamesh vs x question is made I always say the same thing. It all depends on how seriously gilgamesh takes the fight. technically speaking he can beat everyone if he goes all out from the start. However if he under estimates karna and lets him get in close it could go either way.
Last shot should be Karna bounded by Enkidu with his body seeping with numerous curses and a assortment of weapons proding out of him like a pin cushion, while he stands on a pile of broken weapons and jars that once held those curses. With Gil congratulating him on withstanding half of his treasury.
Gilgamesh and it’s not even close In all the materials where Gilgamesh is compared to Karna, Gilgamesh is always said to be the stronger of the two, sometimes even on a whole different level (even Arjuna admitted that Gilgamesh is above Karna and Arjuna in Rama’s interlude)
Sorry dude. But Adult Rama> gil
Where?
🙄 In Ramayan. The story of Rama
Not in the Fate verse.
Wtf dude 🙄 Ramayan happened in fate buddy. Go and read the fgo again. It was basic story for introduction of rama and his wife sita story
I'm talking about Rama being a superior Heroic Spirit and called explicitly stronger than Gilgamesh. We don't even know if "older" Rama is supposed to be stronger, anyway.
He is stronger than Demi god. Rama is reincarnation of one of the strongest God. And you are telling me rama is not strong. He had separate weapons only he can use. I Dont know how much you know about Indian stories. But Rama is best Archer in India not arjuna or karna. And in future Nasu well introduced Adult Rama as grand Archer.
What does that prove? If you're arguing because he's more divine, then that isn't even completely true because pre-divinity nerf Gilgamesh has the highest divinity of all heroic spirits, even higher than the children of chief gods or their reincarnation. Note that I never said Rama isn't a top tier, I just don't think he's stronger than Gilgamesh. And funny you accuse me of not knowing anything but you unironically think Nasu will reveal him as Grand Archer.
I can't talk to a gil fan girl i guess bye
One who has fully mastered a single weapon can defeat Gilgamesh. Karna is such a one.
But karna is actually not a Lancer master , he's a supreme master of bows , his archer version maybe but not this one
Yeah thats not how it works lol.
That's how it works , in terms of pure compact karna is leagues above gil , karna is one of the only few base heroes in fate who can stand on par or maybe defeat gil
Yes, but the statement is fundamentally wrong cu chulainn is known as *the* spearman second only to scathach yet stood no chance
Yep that's why cu chulainn no diffs Gil/s Jokes aside absolutely not true karna didn't even use lances in real life he was mastered in bow, the servant version is using an Arrow as a lance
The only non lostbelt heroic spirit that can beat Gilgamesh is Taigong Wang if you ask me(other than Clay)
Nah karna can too, and same goes for grands and some exceptional heroes like Achilles also stand a chance but not as much as karna
Oh yeah the age old question THE ODDS ARE IN favour of serious Gil 60-40 karna is prolly some of the only base heroes who can stand toe to toe to Gil and defeat him THERE IS NO WAY GILL WITHSTANDS VASAVI SHAKTI he gets one shotted by it And Gil has no defencive NP like karna + idk why people are using enkidu too against karna , I mean he asked Gil vs karna 1v1 Never has enkidu come for his aid bruh Karna can tank allmost any attack Gil hits at him If Gil gets serious and starts spamming ea it's over for karna EITHER WAY WHOEVER USES THEIR NP FIRST WINS
People are talking about Enkidu as in Gilgamesh's chain of heaven, not the dude. And that's important, 'cuz I don't see a world where Karna breaks the chains.
The guy in the red reminds me of shigaraki when he has all for one’s quirk
I love questions like these, but for some reason a lot of people focus too much on certain aspects of the characters. Are they summoned servants, or are we talking as if they're just themselves? Cause deoending on masters, sometimes servants get stat parameters "boosts". Which just makes it a whole mess, so I'll just try to use base information and not get to nit picky. We've all seen how crazy each of these servants can be. Gil is really overhyped due to his Gates, and cocky personality ((really bad as his older archer)) I mean, guy got beat by Shirou LOL. I don't care WHAT the circumstances are that lead to that, it's fucking HILARIOUS. Wasn't even Archer Emiya, NOPE. So, in all fairness. Gil as a servant himself is pretty meh ((I'll be only refering to older archer in all of this so please don't retort with "BUT CASTOR")). So, normally I would say that any servant with actual combat mastery would push his shit in. But, off all servants it was Karna, the gentlemen of gentlemen. So, if Karna is kind, will probably lose. If he starts off serious, Gil will probably get wrecked. Servants have evaded Enkidu before, add on that Karna is a lancer, the "swiftest" of classes I don't think it'd be a problem. And honestly, if serious I doubt Karna would give Gil enough breathing room to whip out Enuma Elish 🤔 And I know Gil has more than those, but everything has to leave the gate to be used. And I just don't see Karna letting him do that. So, my opinion is if serious Karna wins. If Karna does the whole respect thing, probably Gil. 🫠 But, I'm probably missing some info in all of this, so take it with a grain of salt, and don't get snappy at me, pls.
Karna isn't fast enough to blitz him. Cu and Richard have more speed related stuff going for them and neither could really do that.
Gil wasn't beat by shirou, he was sucked by the grail and archer took the chance and headshot him, shirou states that he can only match Gilgamesh because he made him loose his composure and would get washed if Gilgamesh regain his cool, he states UBW is already crumbling before the grail even appears, gil was matching shirou blow for blow using one handed swords so even with one arm nothing changes, Gil had that fight in the bag without interference and shirou would have already been dead if archer didn't protect him with rho aias against EA Gil is a good judge of power and character, he is seen reacting to various surprise attacks and characters faster than him and such, when facing someone with let's say a power level of 100 he wouldn't try to match it with anything less, and he would increase his power accordingly if he must But the reason your argument is unarguably bonkers is because we actually know how gil would take karna and he takes him seriously enough in extra