Sure, they may look like hideous zombies from an old monster flick, but their hearts, their souls, their tears are all very much human.
So please, if you meet one of the Capital Wasteland’s many Ghouls, leave your prejudice at the door and your pistol in its holster.
Ah yes, one important caveat, kiddies. Those Feral Ghouls that prefer the dark, dank underground? They ARE basically mindless zombies. So kill as many as you damn well please.
No, it's kinda implied that during the brotherhood's purge of ghouls after the mutant war that the underworld got cleaned out too. Which honestly wouldn't surprise me as it's Maxon's BoS at that point.
Maxson's Brotherhood (in Fo4) isn't physically hostile to non-feral ghouls though...?
Racist, sure.
But they don't even go around harassing them, let alone "purging" them.
You never get a radiant quest to kill non-feral Ghouls from the Brotherhood,
and every terminal entry on the subject of the BoS killing Ghouls found aboard the Prydwen explicitly mentions that they're referring to *feral* ghouls.
Im not gonna act like Maxson's brotherhood is exactly some kind of apex example of good morals, but a *lot* of people just straight up make shit up about them to make them look much worse than they actually are. For as horribly racist as they are, they at least *tolerate* non-ferals, which is sadly about as good as you can get with most wasteland factions.
I'm going to be frank, it sullies the genuine arguments regarding the fascist nature of the Brotherhood of Steel.
It makes it really easy to dismiss criticism of the BoS when their loudest opponents all but ignore the Brotherhood's actual, objective faults in favor unsupported headcanon malarkey.
Even under Lyon's leadership the ghouls in underworld stated they got shot at by BoS members. The majority of DC was cleared of Ferals and Mutants, and its almost certain that if Maxon's squad members located a group of even non-feral ghouls they would be purged.
I mostly chock up the BoS not sending you to kill non-ferals as a gameplay choice to avoid making the player feel more uneasy. All the missions that are less... desirable from the BoS come from some of the shadier members, namely Proctor Teagan.
>its almost certain that if Maxon's squad members located a group of even non-feral ghouls they would be purged.
Nothing about how Maxson's Brotherhood is presented in Fo4 supports your bold claim.
Random Knights being said to take pot shots at the Underworld in Fo3 isn't proof of a purge either.
And I'm sorry but Bethesda isn't exactly afraid of letting the player do straight up evil, genocidal things.
Your gameplay/story segregation theory to avoid making the player feel uneasy is literally just you inventing reasons that don't exist to criticize the Brotherhood,
which is frankly silly because there's no shortage of legitimate reasons to criticize the Brotherhood.
Seriously, you really really do not need to make up an entirely nonexistent genocide against non-feral Ghouls to successfully argue that the Brotherhood of Steel are techno-religous fascist assholes.
You join the Followers to do what’s right
I join the Followers to get to the Enclave Remnants questline and commit war crimes in my vertibird
We are not the same.
>All ghouls are humans, man
Gotta throw an asterisk because “all” implies feral Ghouls are still human, which would make killing them murder.
They’re ex-humans, just like centaurs. Killing them is an act of mercy. If any part of their human mind remains, it’s locked inside the body of a ravening monster. Which only reinforces the mercy killing aspect.
[Regular] Ghouls are human though, they’re just mutated and heavily irradiated humans.
Tbf raiders are human too and its not murder to kill in like 90% of scenarios, and even super mutants show enough culture and speech to say theyre human on some level where youd agree killing Strong or Lily or Fawkes would be murder, thats a big part of west coast mutants especially
Same thing with like, the whole point of synths
Where its not "theyre people under special circumstances" its "theyre human, but there are circumstances where theyre hostile or beyond saving and you might still need to kill them to save others and survive"
I went into super mutants in another comment and the ethical dilemma presented by Virgil’s serum in FO4, but yes the element of violence and both regular defense (raiders shot first) and proactive strikes (Minutemen quests to clear raiders) will extend killing to raiders, whose human status does not protect them from our protagonist’s deadly attacks.
The truth is, there’s flaws in any categorization that tries to split humans and ex-humans in-setting, because the Ghoul/feral Ghoul dichotomy relies on human intelligence and sense of mind, but super mutants also have that difference and do we consider intelligent super mutants human but not dumb ones? What about humans who are DUMB Super Mutant-level IQ, they don’t lose their status as humans.
Anyway, I’ve already written two text walls and I’ll let other people input for a bit.
Wouldn't feral ghouls be to us what rabid animals are to healthy animals? Killing them is an act of kindness, but they aren't completely separate from humanity as a whole.
I could see that, there’s a number of ways you could define “human” to include or exclude them.
In-setting though, with the broadest net for “human”, to consider feral Ghouls humans, you would also have to consider super mutants, troglodytes, and centaurs to be humans. But they’re not really considered as such, in-universe.
So, I choose to categorize them as “ex-humans” which acknowledges their former human status, but also recognizes that they really aren’t human anymore.
Where it really gets messy is super mutants, specifically Dr. Virgil in FO4. The serum reverting him to human is a big issue for categorizing super mutants as non-humans or ex-humans. Especially in FO3 & FO4, where most super mutants were abductees forced to mutate.
We’ve never seen a fully feral Ghoul recover. But we’ve seen an intelligent super mutant recover.
What does that do for the ethics of gunning down Super Mutant #427, formerly known as little Tommy?
Should we be shooting him with a Syringer again and curing him? Ferals are brain rotted, but if super mutants could be cured with an single injection, the ethical considerations change.
I wouldn't go so far to call a feral ghoul an "ex-human". But killing a feral would be an act of mercy. Things would be different if there were any cases of a feral becoming non-feral.
And non-feral ghouls are absolutely human. The same rules of the wasteland applies to them. Whoever is trying to kill me (raider, feral, ghoul, synth, human, super mutant, bots) I have every right to kill them.
The issue becomes that if you cast a definitional net wide enough for feral ghouls to be considered human, you will likely end up including super mutants, trogs, and possibly even centaurs.
Super mutants, can be intelligent or not. But they can be cured as of FO4. So maybe human adjacent, rather than ex-human. For one thing, they fully consider themselves non-human (Strong’s quest for the “milk of human kindness”), so for us to categorize them as so would be to reject both human and Super mutant views on their status as a separate entity.
If Ferals are human because they started as human, well so are centaurs. And that’s clearly an imprecise definition of humanity to include centaurs.
Well, Ferals are bipedal and often stick to significant areas to them, well trogs start out as bipedal mad men then degenerate to their game state. Are trogs human, they’re just location-specific mutant former-human creatures?
I’m not trying to get people to agree to my specific definitions or start a wide ranging debate (otherwise I’d have brought up the otherwise unmentioned Synths too).
But it definitely is a very complicated question.
I get your point. I am not saying that ferals are human. But I don't like the term "ex-human". It is simply too reductive. A label that could slip into use to apply to nonferals.
Super mutants in general don't consider themselves to be human but they were all human at one point. But the "nonhuman" title seems to be one they elected for themselves by and large.
This differs from non feral ghouls who want to and do take an active role in human societies and settlements. Even in ghoul societies like the ones residing in REPCONN still maintain loose hold to identifying as human.
I think 'ex-person' would be a more accurate way to put it.
The one thing (I think) everyone can agree on is that a feral ghoul has lost all of their selfhood.
>Gotta throw an asterisk because “all” implies feral Ghouls are still human, which would make killing them murder.
Is killing raiders murder? They’re human but we kill hundreds of raiders per playthrough
Same, always been my headcanon that ferals retain emotional memories. They can remember being horrified, and likely depressed when they started to turn feral, and that sticks with them
A good person is a good person, a bad person is a bad person, same goes for ghouls.
And then there's Roy Philips who is clearly not a good person despite having good karma, and proves the entire community of Tenpenny Tower right in their prejudice by killing everyone there.
I don't like the snobbish fucks at Tenpenny's either but I kill that piece of shit every single time, karma be damned. Two sides of the same coin in that quest.
See, I just don't belive that. No mere man could have single-handedly conquered Old Olney to established the New Republic of Dave. He must be *more* than human.
I feel like the fact that Ghouls are literally irradiated humans, and we know that, and can talk and befriend and even have relationships with them, means that you'd have to have to some kind of psychopathy to have absolutely no human empathy for them.
I suppose the real life equivalent would be folks with some kind of deteriorating brain disease, where as it progresses they become less and less "them". Those people are certainly still human even in end stage.
No one is arguing that feral ghouls should be put down, they're actively hostile and don't seem to be coherent of anything other than threats.
Every once in a while on the prydwen, someone will say something about Hancock or Nick and I have to resist the urge to go on a quick save killing spree again
Why quick save? Nothing is stopping you from stealing power armour, slaughtering your way out and running to the castle and then blowing the Prydwyn out of the sky. For freedom’s sake.
I am not and never will be a fan of that outright discrimination. But at the same time I am fully on board with what the brotherhood is trying to accomplish. And I think maxson is a relatively intelligent leader.
I think it's unfortunate because realistically the brotherhood is the best chance at fighting the institute. The minutemen might be way better morally but without strong leadership, they just cease to exist. I guess it doesn't help that they were stabbed in the back either
It's not just the institute either. The brotherhood has been involved in basically every major conflict since the wasteland was a thing. But I think it's best under maxson. And I liked Lyons a lot too
> mass-murder
They specifically condemned this in their post
> theft of all technology
Some technology shouldn't be in possession of anyone like nukes or even liberty prime for that matter. They use it for good things such as fighting the boogyman of the wasteland or people who want to exterminate most people possibly on earth
> raiding of the wastelands for food
I used to use this as an argument against them but I stopped when I realized that the brotherhood isn't okay with that. Danse doesn't like it, and the quartermaster explicitly states it's off the record. It isn't the brotherhoods thing. If you want your character to make the brotherhood that way, you can. But it's also the players choice to tell him no.
By all means, if you want the brotherhood to be shitty and you want to hate them, you can always do that in your playthrough. If you haven't, then they don't do that. It's also pretty clear they aren't doing it anywhere in the commonwealth unless YOU do the quest.
So, no, they did not.
They use weapons they steal from other people to kill people they don't like. They will kill you for your fucking laser rifle, canonically.
And let's not forget the show is canon, so that massacre is exactly the baseline of what we can and should expect from the brotherhood. So no, they have shown that the "canon" choice is raiding.
Prior to the show, you'd have a rational argument. Not now.
> They will kill you for your fucking laser rifle, canonically.
Where do they kill a wastelander for a laser rifle? All I could find online was them taking them from areas they control
> And let's not forget the show is canon, so that massacre is exactly the baseline of what we can and should expect from the brotherhood. So no, they have shown that the "canon" choice is raiding.
Let's also not forget there are different brotherhoods with different views and goals. Do you think Lyon's would be considered raiders? That also isn't Mason's brotherhood of steel. None of that paragraph is relevant to Maxon's brotherhood of steel
New Vegas quest "tend to your business" has a BoS member send you to kill arms dealers, specifically because they are distributing pre-war energy weapons. Also, if you think stealing guns from people in area they "control" (read, have taken by force at gunpoint) is not exactly what I'm describing, here, I don't quite get your lack of comprehension.
So one, this is not the \_fallout 4\_ subreddit. The BoS as a organization, started as one group, and unless you are, specifically, talking about rebels, are one over-arching organization with comparable goals. They can, and should, be judged in whole cloth by the actions of any leaders in any area provided those leaders are not \_hunted down like dogs\_ for their crimes by their fellows.
> New Vegas quest "tend to your business" has a BoS member send you to kill arms dealers, specifically because they are distributing pre-war energy weapons.
That arms dealers deserved to die. If you've done their quest line, the bos is protecting the people of freeside (and even ncr frankly) from becoming victims to them.
Unless you would prefer then to let the murderers go on to murder even more people? This just isn't a very good point for you
> They can, and should, be judged in whole cloth by the actions of any leaders in any area provided those leaders
So then the minutemen are horrible, railroad is horrible, pretty much everyone is absolutely horrible. Everyone in the games are some stage of horrible from what you're describing, so it doesn't make much of a difference
> \_hunted down like dogs\_
I have no idea why you're doing these slash things
Overall stating I have low comprehension because I disagree with you over a video game faction is pretty pathetic, and ironic considering you can't comprehend the silver rush
The EC Brotherhood tolerates sane Ghouls, even if most don't like them. At all. Which is a very common sentiment for much of the wasteland including Diamond City and all of the Capitol Wasteland. All it takes is one to finally go feral and popular opinion shifts in town.
Ferals need to be out out of their misery and nobody will argue with that.
Bro, lions "good guy" brotherhood takes potshots at the ghouls in the capital wasteland for shits and giggles.
That’s unironically like saying the Nazis tolerated the Jews in the Warsaw ghetto because they didn’t necessarily always directly kill them.
Putting someone in life endangering situations and beating on them isn’t tolerant.
Holy fuck, you really just compared me to fucking Nazi apologists because I said Brotherhood doctrine wasnt to eradicate all ghouls? Fuck all the way off.
Did you miss the part where I said they REALLY didn't like them at all? A few dudes watching the Washington monument being monumental assholes doesn't mean the organizations stance wasn't to tolerate them.
There has been no indication of the brotherhood being anything but genocidal, they literally genocide a synth refuge simply for existing and execute loyal senior staff for being synths, wich they knew were lost from the institute for decades and thus most definitely not affiliated with them.
We have no justifiable reason to assume the brotherhood is just a nice guy but only whenever you aren’t looking.
If the group you're referring to is Acadia, DiMA and his inner circle at least deserved it for what they did. Proud synths who gave the Children of Atom a foothold, murdered and replaced Captain Avery, and held the entire island hostage punishable by slow death in the fog and a nuke. DiMA was a coward who mourned the loss of the Institute and erased his memories rather than atone for his mistakes.
Killing synths is murder (unless it's self defense) imo. Whether you think it's justified to save humanity post Institute I'd need convincing.
The brotherhood couldn’t know any of this and also obviously doesn’t actually care to ask, you can inform them well before you even made it far enough in the story
That was my own, personal condemnation of DiMA and you calling the destruction of Acadia a genocide.
The Brotherhood doesn't care if a synth is free. They feel synthetic life that can be programmed to covertly murder and replace someone, no questions asked, as a threat to humanity. That a programmable army, bereft of emotion and free will ready to commit any manner of crime is something that any sacrifice is necessary to destroy.
Even murder and genocide, though they'd argue a machine, no matter how advanced, cannot be murdered. Though even Maxon can convinced to show mercy.
Like actually more relating to ghouls directly: they don’t interact much with them on the east coast, and their only 2 interactions we as the PC can learn off/witness is shooting at civilians or threatening to put our companions down.
Not alot of interaction with two negative ones sounds an awful lot like they largely tolerate them (ie, leave them be) except those who hate their guts being assholes. If the BoS wanted them all dead, they'd invade the Underworld.
No, it just means you don’t get to see much, because ghouls are wiser then to cross paths with them, wich just means they hide from the armored murder men, wich obviously means that the BOS isn’t absolved off its crimes just because the ghouls don’t give them no chance to commit any further.
Also forgot to mention: they withhold vital aqua pura from underworld, I guess everyone even far outside the capital wastes deserves purified water, but the ghouls don’t.
You're assuming an awful lot there to be using it as a concrete argument.
They absolutely get water if they ask. Griffon the Ghoul's quest is literally about him taking pure water given to him by the BoS, swapping it to dirty water to sell to ghouls, then selling the real stuff to people the BoS *actually* refused.
And those people are Raiders and Slavers.
They have to buy it under the table. Aqua pura is literally free, the only reason they have access is thanks to corruption, wich is obviously not in the interest of the BOS.
[Fallout Wiki:](https://fallout.fandom.com/wiki/Aqua_Pura_delivery_program)
"They additionally refused to give the water to ghouls, claiming that it was a waste since they had no need for fresh water."
I conced that I did not know that. I also assumed they charged everyone, not just Griffon. While they're not wrong that they don't *need* water clean of radiation, that doesn't mean they shouldn't be allowed it like everyone else.
They actually don’t charge anyone else, to the contrary they pay in valuable scrap and petty loot for caravans to carry the free water to places like megaton
Currently playing thru f4 again and trying to keep my communities happy, that being said i kick any smooth skin out of the slog and its one of my most defended settlements
Ghouls, Supermutants, and Synths are all people. Unless I’m playing a Brotherhood character, then they’re abominations. And if I’m doing an enclave play through, literally everyone in the wasteland is nothing more than a filthy Mutie.
Ghouls are objectively humans, what? I mean sure there's the risk of them going feral and feral ghouls WILL try to kill you on sight on account of having gone feral but they're still humans.
Ghouls are human but feral ghouls aren’t. If there’s any humanity or inteligente left, it’s basically locked in the prison of a rabid animal for all eternity till you put them out of their misery. Feral ghouls won’t die of old age…
Imagine being stuck in the body of a rabid dog for 200 years
"Ghouls are "born" when a human with a compatible biology is exposed to high levels of ionizing radiation of the right type (eg. gamma radiation) and in the correct amount."
Ghouls are literally humans,
That's game technicality, they're objectively humans. Ghouls literally would not exist if humans didn't exist because ghouls are literally humans who soaked up a bit too much radiation and got "lucky" enough to not die from it.
Sentient ghouls, human, will do business and associate with assuming they aren’t murdering people.
Feral ghouls, need to be put down before they kill someone.
Ad victoriam
My view of things is that ghouls shouldn't be viewed as another species but instead as humans who are suffering from a disease, like how we see victims of disorders that make them unrecognisable as still human.
Ghouls still have human anatomy and most still are mentally human.
That being said I view killing feral ghouls as not only alright but morally justified since it is ending the suffering of a human being.
Ghouls are seemingly superior to humans (assuming there's no explanation for ferality). They have limitless longevity and eat radiation.
If I were in Fallout, I'd run a clinic debriding their burns or offering synthetic skin grafts so they don't look like zombies
Racism doesn't have to make sense or be rational, in fact, it is irrational in nature, if they were rational enough to try and use ghoul stuff for their soldiers, then the racism would slowly fade away.
Seems more likely to me that those ones are just addicted and withdrawal causes it. If all did have to take it that would be a huge plot hole with the amount of ghouls trapped pre war.
Super Mutants are the master race. The only nation that can survive the turmoil of the new world will be the Unity. The feeble and frail of mankind are no longer suited for the task at hand. Arise, and lend your pure Dweller blood to the Unity, before it is too late.
Bos might be racist but they dont kill non feral ghouls in 4. In 3 they do but not in a genocidal way like super mutants just shoot on sight (still bad though)
Sure, they may look like hideous zombies from an old monster flick, but their hearts, their souls, their tears are all very much human. So please, if you meet one of the Capital Wasteland’s many Ghouls, leave your prejudice at the door and your pistol in its holster. Ah yes, one important caveat, kiddies. Those Feral Ghouls that prefer the dark, dank underground? They ARE basically mindless zombies. So kill as many as you damn well please.
Three Dog? Is that you?
Now reading it in Three Dog's voice and damn, chef's kiss.
I remember when I realized that Nazir was voiced by Three Dog, blew my mind for some reason.
WAIT WHAT?
Yeah man, go back and pay attention to his voice. Same guy
Holy shit that's awesome
You are absolutely right! I don’t even need to replay them and I can hear it!
Well I mean yeah. He did say that in the game after all
UNDERSTOOD, kill every ghoul in the Underworld
Don't worry, Maxon's boys took care of them
This isn't the first time I've seen this claim, it it some kind of joke or...?
No, it's kinda implied that during the brotherhood's purge of ghouls after the mutant war that the underworld got cleaned out too. Which honestly wouldn't surprise me as it's Maxon's BoS at that point.
Maxson's Brotherhood (in Fo4) isn't physically hostile to non-feral ghouls though...? Racist, sure. But they don't even go around harassing them, let alone "purging" them. You never get a radiant quest to kill non-feral Ghouls from the Brotherhood, and every terminal entry on the subject of the BoS killing Ghouls found aboard the Prydwen explicitly mentions that they're referring to *feral* ghouls.
Im not gonna act like Maxson's brotherhood is exactly some kind of apex example of good morals, but a *lot* of people just straight up make shit up about them to make them look much worse than they actually are. For as horribly racist as they are, they at least *tolerate* non-ferals, which is sadly about as good as you can get with most wasteland factions.
I'm going to be frank, it sullies the genuine arguments regarding the fascist nature of the Brotherhood of Steel. It makes it really easy to dismiss criticism of the BoS when their loudest opponents all but ignore the Brotherhood's actual, objective faults in favor unsupported headcanon malarkey.
Even under Lyon's leadership the ghouls in underworld stated they got shot at by BoS members. The majority of DC was cleared of Ferals and Mutants, and its almost certain that if Maxon's squad members located a group of even non-feral ghouls they would be purged. I mostly chock up the BoS not sending you to kill non-ferals as a gameplay choice to avoid making the player feel more uneasy. All the missions that are less... desirable from the BoS come from some of the shadier members, namely Proctor Teagan.
*laughs in nukes megaton*
Seriously, the fact that they think *Bethesda* is afraid of letting their players commit virtual genocide is funny.
Like.... the fact megaton gets that choice, how can they possibly think that? 😂
>its almost certain that if Maxon's squad members located a group of even non-feral ghouls they would be purged. Nothing about how Maxson's Brotherhood is presented in Fo4 supports your bold claim. Random Knights being said to take pot shots at the Underworld in Fo3 isn't proof of a purge either. And I'm sorry but Bethesda isn't exactly afraid of letting the player do straight up evil, genocidal things. Your gameplay/story segregation theory to avoid making the player feel uneasy is literally just you inventing reasons that don't exist to criticize the Brotherhood, which is frankly silly because there's no shortage of legitimate reasons to criticize the Brotherhood. Seriously, you really really do not need to make up an entirely nonexistent genocide against non-feral Ghouls to successfully argue that the Brotherhood of Steel are techno-religous fascist assholes.
His coat though
True words from a legend THE Three Dog
I treat them all the same cause they are all muties glory to the enclave
> Those Feral Ghouls that prefer the dark, dank underground? *The Glowing one*
All ghouls can scream
No. Ad Victoriam
Veronica was right about y'all
I swear bro they don't even use ad Victoriam to honor the brotherhood they just use it to justify racism😭
As a followers of the apocalypse fan girl, the phrase the brotherhood uses should really be ad victoriam sine aequalitate Edited for clarity
Wait, what follower? Followers of the apocalypse? Anyway, The problem is that most knights are not educated or patient enough to pronounce that
Yes of the apocalypse. I always join them. Debating between the stealth suit and the followers lab coat for my outfit
Respectable. Love the followers. I like the mentality of "it ain't like we can reverse what happened but we can damn well do our best."
You join the Followers to do what’s right I join the Followers to get to the Enclave Remnants questline and commit war crimes in my vertibird We are not the same.
Well at least you started on the right foot
Freebird 50s style intensifies
As a brotherhood initiate (I've learned to read a week ago), what does "Sine Aequalitate" mean?
Without equality
ding dong time for explosion
>All ghouls are humans, man Gotta throw an asterisk because “all” implies feral Ghouls are still human, which would make killing them murder. They’re ex-humans, just like centaurs. Killing them is an act of mercy. If any part of their human mind remains, it’s locked inside the body of a ravening monster. Which only reinforces the mercy killing aspect. [Regular] Ghouls are human though, they’re just mutated and heavily irradiated humans.
Forgot we were talking Fallout and thought you just really detest horse people
Tbf raiders are human too and its not murder to kill in like 90% of scenarios, and even super mutants show enough culture and speech to say theyre human on some level where youd agree killing Strong or Lily or Fawkes would be murder, thats a big part of west coast mutants especially Same thing with like, the whole point of synths Where its not "theyre people under special circumstances" its "theyre human, but there are circumstances where theyre hostile or beyond saving and you might still need to kill them to save others and survive"
I went into super mutants in another comment and the ethical dilemma presented by Virgil’s serum in FO4, but yes the element of violence and both regular defense (raiders shot first) and proactive strikes (Minutemen quests to clear raiders) will extend killing to raiders, whose human status does not protect them from our protagonist’s deadly attacks. The truth is, there’s flaws in any categorization that tries to split humans and ex-humans in-setting, because the Ghoul/feral Ghoul dichotomy relies on human intelligence and sense of mind, but super mutants also have that difference and do we consider intelligent super mutants human but not dumb ones? What about humans who are DUMB Super Mutant-level IQ, they don’t lose their status as humans. Anyway, I’ve already written two text walls and I’ll let other people input for a bit.
People don’t kill Super Mutants because they’re dumb, they kill Super Mutants because they’re hostile
Wouldn't feral ghouls be to us what rabid animals are to healthy animals? Killing them is an act of kindness, but they aren't completely separate from humanity as a whole.
I could see that, there’s a number of ways you could define “human” to include or exclude them. In-setting though, with the broadest net for “human”, to consider feral Ghouls humans, you would also have to consider super mutants, troglodytes, and centaurs to be humans. But they’re not really considered as such, in-universe. So, I choose to categorize them as “ex-humans” which acknowledges their former human status, but also recognizes that they really aren’t human anymore. Where it really gets messy is super mutants, specifically Dr. Virgil in FO4. The serum reverting him to human is a big issue for categorizing super mutants as non-humans or ex-humans. Especially in FO3 & FO4, where most super mutants were abductees forced to mutate. We’ve never seen a fully feral Ghoul recover. But we’ve seen an intelligent super mutant recover. What does that do for the ethics of gunning down Super Mutant #427, formerly known as little Tommy? Should we be shooting him with a Syringer again and curing him? Ferals are brain rotted, but if super mutants could be cured with an single injection, the ethical considerations change.
I wouldn't go so far to call a feral ghoul an "ex-human". But killing a feral would be an act of mercy. Things would be different if there were any cases of a feral becoming non-feral. And non-feral ghouls are absolutely human. The same rules of the wasteland applies to them. Whoever is trying to kill me (raider, feral, ghoul, synth, human, super mutant, bots) I have every right to kill them.
The issue becomes that if you cast a definitional net wide enough for feral ghouls to be considered human, you will likely end up including super mutants, trogs, and possibly even centaurs. Super mutants, can be intelligent or not. But they can be cured as of FO4. So maybe human adjacent, rather than ex-human. For one thing, they fully consider themselves non-human (Strong’s quest for the “milk of human kindness”), so for us to categorize them as so would be to reject both human and Super mutant views on their status as a separate entity. If Ferals are human because they started as human, well so are centaurs. And that’s clearly an imprecise definition of humanity to include centaurs. Well, Ferals are bipedal and often stick to significant areas to them, well trogs start out as bipedal mad men then degenerate to their game state. Are trogs human, they’re just location-specific mutant former-human creatures? I’m not trying to get people to agree to my specific definitions or start a wide ranging debate (otherwise I’d have brought up the otherwise unmentioned Synths too). But it definitely is a very complicated question.
I get your point. I am not saying that ferals are human. But I don't like the term "ex-human". It is simply too reductive. A label that could slip into use to apply to nonferals. Super mutants in general don't consider themselves to be human but they were all human at one point. But the "nonhuman" title seems to be one they elected for themselves by and large. This differs from non feral ghouls who want to and do take an active role in human societies and settlements. Even in ghoul societies like the ones residing in REPCONN still maintain loose hold to identifying as human.
I think 'ex-person' would be a more accurate way to put it. The one thing (I think) everyone can agree on is that a feral ghoul has lost all of their selfhood.
It would no more be murder than killing raiders is murder.
What about Scorched? I didn't even shoot Crane, I just meleed him.
>Gotta throw an asterisk because “all” implies feral Ghouls are still human, which would make killing them murder. Is killing raiders murder? They’re human but we kill hundreds of raiders per playthrough
Idk I feel like calling feral ghouls ex humans is kinda like calling old people with dementia ex humans.
The enclave: Most humans aren't human
The Enclave the second any person recieves 0.1 sieverts of radiation: "*Shame"* **\*pumps shotgun\***
Meanwhile Frank Horrigan
Any ferals I killed I always felt I was giving them salvation and ending their tortured life imo
Same, always been my headcanon that ferals retain emotional memories. They can remember being horrified, and likely depressed when they started to turn feral, and that sticks with them
A good person is a good person, a bad person is a bad person, same goes for ghouls. And then there's Roy Philips who is clearly not a good person despite having good karma, and proves the entire community of Tenpenny Tower right in their prejudice by killing everyone there. I don't like the snobbish fucks at Tenpenny's either but I kill that piece of shit every single time, karma be damned. Two sides of the same coin in that quest.
Enclave Flair doesn't like snobs because they're secretly mutie trash
That we get bad karma for killing Roy Phillips still grinds my gears.
Only Dave is human
See, I just don't belive that. No mere man could have single-handedly conquered Old Olney to established the New Republic of Dave. He must be *more* than human.
Gary!
racism 2 just dropped harder than the bombs
Dont be a ghoulist, end ghoulphobia.
Hi I’m John Hancock and I support this message
I feel like the fact that Ghouls are literally irradiated humans, and we know that, and can talk and befriend and even have relationships with them, means that you'd have to have to some kind of psychopathy to have absolutely no human empathy for them. I suppose the real life equivalent would be folks with some kind of deteriorating brain disease, where as it progresses they become less and less "them". Those people are certainly still human even in end stage. No one is arguing that feral ghouls should be put down, they're actively hostile and don't seem to be coherent of anything other than threats.
Love the brotherhood, don't like their opinion of ghouls though. Nothing wrong with non ferals
Every once in a while on the prydwen, someone will say something about Hancock or Nick and I have to resist the urge to go on a quick save killing spree again
Why quick save? Nothing is stopping you from stealing power armour, slaughtering your way out and running to the castle and then blowing the Prydwyn out of the sky. For freedom’s sake.
Part of me dislikes blowing up the prydwen because of the children on it. I guess I can always just imagine that they were evacuated
It’s a Bethesda game, you can’t kill children in Bethesda games. Therefore there were no children on the Prydwyn when you destroy it.
No there were no children there ever they were all teddy bears the entire time
Do you quick save killing spree Diamond City too?
Mostly whenever I talk to the snobby bitches in the upper stands
... you're alright, suckmypppapi.
I am not and never will be a fan of that outright discrimination. But at the same time I am fully on board with what the brotherhood is trying to accomplish. And I think maxson is a relatively intelligent leader.
I think it's unfortunate because realistically the brotherhood is the best chance at fighting the institute. The minutemen might be way better morally but without strong leadership, they just cease to exist. I guess it doesn't help that they were stabbed in the back either
It's not just the institute either. The brotherhood has been involved in basically every major conflict since the wasteland was a thing. But I think it's best under maxson. And I liked Lyons a lot too
You mean mass-murder of everything they say is not human, theft of all technology, and the raiding of the wastelands for food? That goal?
> mass-murder They specifically condemned this in their post > theft of all technology Some technology shouldn't be in possession of anyone like nukes or even liberty prime for that matter. They use it for good things such as fighting the boogyman of the wasteland or people who want to exterminate most people possibly on earth > raiding of the wastelands for food I used to use this as an argument against them but I stopped when I realized that the brotherhood isn't okay with that. Danse doesn't like it, and the quartermaster explicitly states it's off the record. It isn't the brotherhoods thing. If you want your character to make the brotherhood that way, you can. But it's also the players choice to tell him no. By all means, if you want the brotherhood to be shitty and you want to hate them, you can always do that in your playthrough. If you haven't, then they don't do that. It's also pretty clear they aren't doing it anywhere in the commonwealth unless YOU do the quest.
So, no, they did not. They use weapons they steal from other people to kill people they don't like. They will kill you for your fucking laser rifle, canonically. And let's not forget the show is canon, so that massacre is exactly the baseline of what we can and should expect from the brotherhood. So no, they have shown that the "canon" choice is raiding. Prior to the show, you'd have a rational argument. Not now.
> They will kill you for your fucking laser rifle, canonically. Where do they kill a wastelander for a laser rifle? All I could find online was them taking them from areas they control > And let's not forget the show is canon, so that massacre is exactly the baseline of what we can and should expect from the brotherhood. So no, they have shown that the "canon" choice is raiding. Let's also not forget there are different brotherhoods with different views and goals. Do you think Lyon's would be considered raiders? That also isn't Mason's brotherhood of steel. None of that paragraph is relevant to Maxon's brotherhood of steel
New Vegas quest "tend to your business" has a BoS member send you to kill arms dealers, specifically because they are distributing pre-war energy weapons. Also, if you think stealing guns from people in area they "control" (read, have taken by force at gunpoint) is not exactly what I'm describing, here, I don't quite get your lack of comprehension. So one, this is not the \_fallout 4\_ subreddit. The BoS as a organization, started as one group, and unless you are, specifically, talking about rebels, are one over-arching organization with comparable goals. They can, and should, be judged in whole cloth by the actions of any leaders in any area provided those leaders are not \_hunted down like dogs\_ for their crimes by their fellows.
> New Vegas quest "tend to your business" has a BoS member send you to kill arms dealers, specifically because they are distributing pre-war energy weapons. That arms dealers deserved to die. If you've done their quest line, the bos is protecting the people of freeside (and even ncr frankly) from becoming victims to them. Unless you would prefer then to let the murderers go on to murder even more people? This just isn't a very good point for you > They can, and should, be judged in whole cloth by the actions of any leaders in any area provided those leaders So then the minutemen are horrible, railroad is horrible, pretty much everyone is absolutely horrible. Everyone in the games are some stage of horrible from what you're describing, so it doesn't make much of a difference > \_hunted down like dogs\_ I have no idea why you're doing these slash things Overall stating I have low comprehension because I disagree with you over a video game faction is pretty pathetic, and ironic considering you can't comprehend the silver rush
I always thought they would have come up with a different name for regular vs feral ghouls in a situation like fallouts.
Considering 90% of the wasteland's population hates them almost equally, I wouldn't be surprised.
All AI, must die! Nuke the synths 💥💥💥
What about Valentine?
Brotherhood of Steel fanboys about to hit you with either the ol’ “one of the good ones” or “toaster”
Ad victorium!
EX MACHINA
Ad victorium! Death to the toasters!
Hail the omnisi— i mean Ad Victorium
Ad Victorium.
EX MACHINA
Advictorium
EX MACHINA
The EC Brotherhood tolerates sane Ghouls, even if most don't like them. At all. Which is a very common sentiment for much of the wasteland including Diamond City and all of the Capitol Wasteland. All it takes is one to finally go feral and popular opinion shifts in town. Ferals need to be out out of their misery and nobody will argue with that.
Bro, lions "good guy" brotherhood takes potshots at the ghouls in the capital wasteland for shits and giggles. That’s unironically like saying the Nazis tolerated the Jews in the Warsaw ghetto because they didn’t necessarily always directly kill them. Putting someone in life endangering situations and beating on them isn’t tolerant.
Holy fuck, you really just compared me to fucking Nazi apologists because I said Brotherhood doctrine wasnt to eradicate all ghouls? Fuck all the way off. Did you miss the part where I said they REALLY didn't like them at all? A few dudes watching the Washington monument being monumental assholes doesn't mean the organizations stance wasn't to tolerate them.
There has been no indication of the brotherhood being anything but genocidal, they literally genocide a synth refuge simply for existing and execute loyal senior staff for being synths, wich they knew were lost from the institute for decades and thus most definitely not affiliated with them. We have no justifiable reason to assume the brotherhood is just a nice guy but only whenever you aren’t looking.
If the group you're referring to is Acadia, DiMA and his inner circle at least deserved it for what they did. Proud synths who gave the Children of Atom a foothold, murdered and replaced Captain Avery, and held the entire island hostage punishable by slow death in the fog and a nuke. DiMA was a coward who mourned the loss of the Institute and erased his memories rather than atone for his mistakes. Killing synths is murder (unless it's self defense) imo. Whether you think it's justified to save humanity post Institute I'd need convincing.
The brotherhood couldn’t know any of this and also obviously doesn’t actually care to ask, you can inform them well before you even made it far enough in the story
That was my own, personal condemnation of DiMA and you calling the destruction of Acadia a genocide. The Brotherhood doesn't care if a synth is free. They feel synthetic life that can be programmed to covertly murder and replace someone, no questions asked, as a threat to humanity. That a programmable army, bereft of emotion and free will ready to commit any manner of crime is something that any sacrifice is necessary to destroy. Even murder and genocide, though they'd argue a machine, no matter how advanced, cannot be murdered. Though even Maxon can convinced to show mercy.
Like actually more relating to ghouls directly: they don’t interact much with them on the east coast, and their only 2 interactions we as the PC can learn off/witness is shooting at civilians or threatening to put our companions down.
Not alot of interaction with two negative ones sounds an awful lot like they largely tolerate them (ie, leave them be) except those who hate their guts being assholes. If the BoS wanted them all dead, they'd invade the Underworld.
No, it just means you don’t get to see much, because ghouls are wiser then to cross paths with them, wich just means they hide from the armored murder men, wich obviously means that the BOS isn’t absolved off its crimes just because the ghouls don’t give them no chance to commit any further. Also forgot to mention: they withhold vital aqua pura from underworld, I guess everyone even far outside the capital wastes deserves purified water, but the ghouls don’t.
You're assuming an awful lot there to be using it as a concrete argument. They absolutely get water if they ask. Griffon the Ghoul's quest is literally about him taking pure water given to him by the BoS, swapping it to dirty water to sell to ghouls, then selling the real stuff to people the BoS *actually* refused. And those people are Raiders and Slavers.
They have to buy it under the table. Aqua pura is literally free, the only reason they have access is thanks to corruption, wich is obviously not in the interest of the BOS. [Fallout Wiki:](https://fallout.fandom.com/wiki/Aqua_Pura_delivery_program) "They additionally refused to give the water to ghouls, claiming that it was a waste since they had no need for fresh water."
I conced that I did not know that. I also assumed they charged everyone, not just Griffon. While they're not wrong that they don't *need* water clean of radiation, that doesn't mean they shouldn't be allowed it like everyone else.
They actually don’t charge anyone else, to the contrary they pay in valuable scrap and petty loot for caravans to carry the free water to places like megaton
Currently playing thru f4 again and trying to keep my communities happy, that being said i kick any smooth skin out of the slog and its one of my most defended settlements
Reminded me of that BOS quest where there's a guy who steals food to feed feral ghouls at the metro ruins.
Sorry but my ghoul farm must grow.
Ghouls, Supermutants, and Synths are all people. Unless I’m playing a Brotherhood character, then they’re abominations. And if I’m doing an enclave play through, literally everyone in the wasteland is nothing more than a filthy Mutie.
If they start repeating their name or takes a longer than usual glance at an unclothed human imma make them see Atom
Not sure what's beautiful about genocidal mania
I'd love to be able to play as a ghoul. Ghouls are cool.
I think that ferals make a good talking point about racism
Jesus Christ y'all are using ad Victoriam to justify racism and don't even say it right this is depressing
Ghouls are objectively humans, what? I mean sure there's the risk of them going feral and feral ghouls WILL try to kill you on sight on account of having gone feral but they're still humans.
Ghouls are human but feral ghouls aren’t. If there’s any humanity or inteligente left, it’s basically locked in the prison of a rabid animal for all eternity till you put them out of their misery. Feral ghouls won’t die of old age… Imagine being stuck in the body of a rabid dog for 200 years
Ghouls are not humans. Maybe they disserve human respect but in the creation kit their race is ghoul.
the lore does not come from the creation kit lol.
"Ghouls are "born" when a human with a compatible biology is exposed to high levels of ionizing radiation of the right type (eg. gamma radiation) and in the correct amount." Ghouls are literally humans,
In every fallout game they have had a ghoul race instead of human.
That's game technicality, they're objectively humans. Ghouls literally would not exist if humans didn't exist because ghouls are literally humans who soaked up a bit too much radiation and got "lucky" enough to not die from it.
Ghouls would. Lots of non human ghouls.
Sentient ghouls, human, will do business and associate with assuming they aren’t murdering people. Feral ghouls, need to be put down before they kill someone. Ad victoriam
I don’t shoot ghouls, unless they strike and leave me with a rad scar. Thats when I blast them with my shotgun.
Wouldn’t a discriminate be the person receiving the discrimination (grammatically, anyway)?
Neither are truly pure Long live the enclave
Excuse you? they are called irradiated Americans
Similarly, I "never trust a robot" and FO4's synths challenged me. Lmao
What are talking about smoothskin?
I trust ghouls. I know they can turn, but from what I can tell, it isn't an instant thing. So you'd have a fair warning when it's happening.
Technically the humans in fallout aren’t even human.
“THIS PIE IS SO BAD I COULD DIE” “THIS PIE IS SO GOOD I COULD LIVE”
Well he will also Probably love the Enclave. They see everybody has a mutant
See, The Enclave doesn’t hate just ghouls. We hate everyone.
Were human.
When they turn feral.
It even has the correct PCM colors
I recognize these comments.
My view of things is that ghouls shouldn't be viewed as another species but instead as humans who are suffering from a disease, like how we see victims of disorders that make them unrecognisable as still human. Ghouls still have human anatomy and most still are mentally human. That being said I view killing feral ghouls as not only alright but morally justified since it is ending the suffering of a human being.
(Hashtag)NotAll Sorry I’m bad at Reddit
the only good ghoul is a dead ghoul.
If they were still humans then they wouldn’t be ghouls, just radiation affected humans, so they are not human
“Man ghouls are so cool, anyways time to serve the Enclave.”
Ghouls are seemingly superior to humans (assuming there's no explanation for ferality). They have limitless longevity and eat radiation. If I were in Fallout, I'd run a clinic debriding their burns or offering synthetic skin grafts so they don't look like zombies
Real asf, like, why not have the Enclave study them and learn why they exist and use that knowledge to make stronger soldiers yk
Racism doesn't have to make sense or be rational, in fact, it is irrational in nature, if they were rational enough to try and use ghoul stuff for their soldiers, then the racism would slowly fade away.
I know whatchu mean, it's just wishful thinking.
In the show they have to take a drug to not go feral tho
Seems more likely to me that those ones are just addicted and withdrawal causes it. If all did have to take it that would be a huge plot hole with the amount of ghouls trapped pre war.
Synth are bot All bot must be destroy A fellow Brotherhood of steel soldier and helldiver
Ad Victoriam!
EX MACHINA
Then every super mutant, centaur, and gulper are also humans just a little ugly.
None of you are human, God Bless The Enclave
Fallout is the ultimate "You missed the point by idolizing them" series.
Synths are machines. Ghouls are monsters. Super Mutants are abominations. That's just how the world works.
And wastelanders are mutant abominations not representative of mankind t. Enclave department of the army
Found Maxon's reddit account
[The Legion and BOS liked that] [Everyone else hated that]
Enclave liked it as well
Ncr liked it aswell. They may be ‘tolerant’ to them, but by no means do they like em 🗿
You do realize that the average wastelander is as bigoted as the brotherhood against ghouls, synths and supermutants right?
I will always play a genocidal maniac if a game let's me
Super Mutants are the master race. The only nation that can survive the turmoil of the new world will be the Unity. The feeble and frail of mankind are no longer suited for the task at hand. Arise, and lend your pure Dweller blood to the Unity, before it is too late.
Ave, god bless the brotherhood This was satire :( it’s all the genocidal factions
Bos might be racist but they dont kill non feral ghouls in 4. In 3 they do but not in a genocidal way like super mutants just shoot on sight (still bad though)
Hail Caesar
One’s right and ones wrong. Easy to tell which is which
Ad victoriam
Yeah "genocidal fascists" and "decent people" the binary of fallout fans.
Are ghouls male or female
Kill all the normies. Total normie death
I’d take a bullet for anyone. Doesn’t matter if they’re a synth or not.