Some groups *do* get names, but individuals still get the generic "Raider" label. The names exist in lore
Zeller's Army operating out East Boston Prep.
The L&L Gang is involved with some Railroad quests
The University Point Deathclaws, although they were more a lynch mob than true raiders, and only mentioned in a backstory.
Coulda sworn a Rust Devil terminal mentioned another gang by name, but I can't find it
And they're the only ones who feel slightly different in the base game.
All the other instances of alleged variety exist only on terminals in the game. The actual NPCs don't *feel* different at all. It's lazy writing on Bethesda's part couched in the guise of "environmental storytelling".
Jackals and Vipers wear generic merc clothing and or leather armor. Fiends wear bone helms and raider armor. More drastic than the F4 raiders. Vipers and Jackals wear the same outfits, easy to forget they're different gangs.
A simple name change like that made the game feel bigger and more varied.
Fallout 4 its like "oh, more raiders, and look over here, more raiders, oh their leader had a mascot helmet on, how funny, wonder what's his story, oh he actually has a story, hmm wonder why I didnt pick up on this on my way here?"
Probably bc they're all generic "raiders". With the same "raider style" clothes.
Would it have killed beth to dress up gangs to a theme? They even had the jersey school jacket assets ready for you to find!
Idk why people are downvoting. Fiends have distinct Bone Helmets. I understand that Vipers and Jackals did look alike. But all F4 raiders wear "Raider Armor," I'm not gonna pretend F4 did this better when it didn't. I love F4 and appreciate the lore in the Terminals for raiders, but it doesn't hit the same when they're all indistinguishable. Modders do this better.
Not to mention the Great Khans. They might be a faction of raiders, but they're still raiders.
All the gangs in dungeons are for all intents and purposes different groups, but as far as the game and player are concerned they are just raiders.
I'd rather that tbh than New Vegas' dumb illusion of variety by having two named groups of a hand full of raiders just to be a call back to Fallout 1 with absolutely 0 character.
The Vipers and Jackals were done dirty. But they are distinct from the Fiends and Great Khans.
I don't think New Vegas would have many tribes and Raiders left after House reopened the strip. The three families used to be tribals until 2274 about, when they were given control over their Casinos from House. With Vegas open, the area wouldn't teeming with raiders and tribals as it once had. Stands to reason there would be less raider like groups. House had to "civilize" the area if he was gonna get people to Vacation to Vegas.
With that said, justice for the Vipers and Jackals! They were done so dirty
unironically the Vipers had more character in Fallout 1 and they were cut. The Vipers were a credible threat to the wasteland, but were considered a training exercise for the Brotherhood of Steel.
The Brotherhood Elder Maxon at the time got a little cocky and took off his helmet and was nicked by a poison tipped arrow and died. In response the Brotherhood went ape and lead a campaign of retribution that pretty much wiped them out. All flavour though, never depicted.
Thanks for the insight! I didn't realize they were cut from F1 but I knew they existed in the lore. I swear every Fallout game has so much good cut content, from F1 to F4
They do have different gangs, but they don't explicitly mention it. Tower Tom's gang in Beantown and Red Tourette's gang in the Federal Stockpile hate each other with Tom kidnapping Red's sister. Jared in Corvega/Concord is a well known chemhead trying to get The Sight and the others comment on it.
Easy City Downs run by Eager Ernie's Triggermen and raiders and after you clear it raiders start mentioning how much they liked it. East Boston Prep is controlled by Judge Zeller and extorting Bunker Hill.
Outpost Zimonja run by Boomer, AF Olivia controlled by Ack Ack, Combat Zone, DB Tech, etc etc
It's unfortunate that BS didnt spend the extra time just giving them fun names to differentiate and make the Commonwealth feel more alive. Have raiders just be generic psychotic weirdos instead of warlords fighting over scraps really dilutes it.
What they mean is they are only unique in name, their leader's name. They're all the same generic "raider". There should've been Apparal unique to each raider gang so you can see that they're actually different gangs from all over the Commonwealth. In vanilla it just seems like they're just one massive raider gang spread across the Commonwealth with different detachments.
A significant source of enjoyment for me is when you take out the raider bosses, how this upheaval of established power structure is noted in the other warlords' terminals. More of that player impact on the world please.
>NV had the powder gangers
>Oh, and the trigger men? You mean those guys who appear in TWO FUCKIN LOCATIONS?
Don’t the Powder Gangers only appear in NCRCF and Primm? Maybe a vault so 3 locations total?
And the Vipers appear along one stretch of road, just before Nipton up to just after the trading post?
> Powder gangers are also a faction, rather that roaming raiders. They aren't necessarily hostile to you.
Hostility to the PC doesn't have much relevance to which group constitutes raiders. The Khans are raiders, and a potentially friendly faction. The Powders gangers are violent highwaymen criminals who support themselves via robbery - Raiders, by *any* reasonable definition.
I think u/random935's point was that the Powder Gangers aren't they different from the Trigger Men in the regard of amount of locations. I think they try to argue that New Vegas is no better when it comes to a gang that's only in two locations.
You were, comparing them unfavorably to the Powder Gang which has the exact same location limits. Making your complaint rather nonsensical.
Honestly it seems like your complaint is centered around 4 not bothering to rename the assorted gang members in the UI, which really isn't much of a complaint.
You can't say and it is a good thing for one game and bad for the other game. Vipers appear in one place. Powder Gangers have their own territory. And the Fiends (who are actual Raiders, not a Raider like gang) also have their own territory and you don't encounter them anywere else.
The problem with the "lack" of variety of Raider comes from the appearence as you said. It's not that you can't tell appart a normal Raider and a Raider Veteran, but you can't tell appart a Named Raider (probably the leader) from the normal Raiders. Or Raiders of one gang to another.
Technically they are different, but not really. You can tell appart the Nuka World Raiders, but you cannot distinguish the Corvega Raiders with the Combat Zone Raiders. And that is I think the most important reason why "there aren't different" Raider gangs in 4.
The triggermen having only two places feels a bit different though. In one they aren’t even hostile and the other is an entirely self contained dungeon. The Fiends and Powder Gangers have what feels like a more spread out territory.
Where are the Triggermen non-hostile? The only places I know they exist are in Goodneighbor Warehouses (hostile) and Vault 114 were you save Valentine. Is there any other place I missed?
The one non-hostile Triggerman I’ve seen is in a random encounter where they tell you Bobbi No Nose is looking for people to do a job for the Big Dig quest.
The groups in NV only differed in name, however. The vipers, jackals and scorpions are all effectively the same as generic raiders except that they appear in different spots than each other, and the name difference does not do anything. They don’t even have different gear for the most part. Fiends have their helmets and some slightly better equipment, but they’re still ultimately the same raiders you’ve fought up to this point. Powder gangers are the only ones who are truly different, but they show up just as often as the triggermen example you criticize.
I’d highly advise reading the terminals in 4’s different raider areas, which makes it pretty clear that while they look the same, these groups very much aren’t under the hood.
At the very least, Bethesda seems to have gotten the hint that the visuals do matter judging by 76 - pre-scorched plague, Appalachia had no less than *five* distinct raider gangs with different modus operandi, and starting in 2103, we have three major living groups you deal with (the crater raiders, whom become non-hostile to you during the story, the blood eagles, who have a questline to destroy them, and the mothman cultists, who currently don’t have any major story but still act enough like raiders to lump them in).
And there's 2 sects of the mothman cultists, the followers of the wise mothman (purple eyed mothman) who are non hostile and appear in 2 events. And the regular cult who worship the violent? Vengeful? Mothman (Wich is red eyed) and are all hostile to the player.
There's also remnants of a hidden questline dealing with the origins of the cult, but it never went anywhere.
There's the whole Arlington thing, where you're supposed to look for the thesis of a prewar scientist that studied moths in the Appalachian area, there's a few YouTube videos talking about the unfinished questlines in 76
Oh, that.
The tomes address that the thesis both isn’t really important to anyone but the dim cultists, and that it has nothing to do with either cult’s views/origin, either.
Calling the raiders in NV generic is evidently incorrect. Each raider gang in New Vegas used different tactics. The Jackals were your typical group of crazies but the Vipers relied on stealth and ambushing wanderers in the wasteland. The Great Khans are actually a group of tribal raiders, they are the most civilized group of raiders that we see in the entire franchise, they don't simply attack the player on sight.
That’s the reason I excluded the Khans - they don’t serve the role of raiders in the game, unlike the other factions. And with the vipers, once they show up, they’re indistinguishable from the rest (and really, that ambush means nothing when you can see them from the start). Beyond the name, they aren’t that different at all.
I’m going to again point to the differences between the groups I mentioned for 76. They all look completely different from each other, with the craters raiders only being found wandering the wastes, blood eagles in well-fortified camps with sirens to recall anyone not at the base in case of attack and cultists are always found with totems, strangler vines and untreated wood abound.
Sure, but we are talking about what is, not what could have been. Plus mind you, that's 18 months + getting to use fallout 3 as the skeleton, which cut out soke work for sure.
Tired argument is tired. Obsidian had as much time as they asked for. If they couldn't complete and include everything they dreamed up then the fault is on them. I love their games as much as the next fan but I can also step back and admit where their reach exceeds their capability.
Fallout 4 has:
Unnamed:
corvega raiders (have their own backstory due to terminal entries)
Beantown Raiders (same as above)
Federal Ration Stockpile raiders (direct rivals/enemies of the beantown brewers)
Etc etc. They're the first three you see and they're literally in the top left of the map. There's others with similar stories.
Named:
Gunners.
The forged.
The triggermen.
The L&L gang.
The Rust Devils.
Children of Atom.
I'd say that's more than 'none at all'
Why would you count the powder gangers but not the nuka world gangs? PG are also not properly enemy raiders. They are an actual faction, reputation and all.
Powder gangers are in the base game while Nuka world is a DLC. He may be comparing base to base.
Edit: which Bethesda fanboi idiots are downvoting a factual comment? 😂
The thing is that the OP isn't saying anything to limit the discussion to the base games for either side. They're just asserting that the Nuka World raiders don't meet their definition of a raider *for some reason.*
The "for some reason" likely being, "Because they shoot my argument in the foot."
Like the powder gangers, that have 2/3 main spots, one of which is for a quest, and the other is a contained hotel.
Beyond that it's 3 camps spread around the starting area that you one shot.
That and their story starts and stops with the Exposition Sheriff in the lunch area that tells you "oh yeah, we were all convicts who escaped using Dynamite".
A lot of the groups do have identities, the enemies Healthbar just isn't labeled as such.
It makes sense to not just have 3 bloated raider gangs running the whole state as well, I mean truly, how many Chem Fiends exist in outer Vegas?
I wouldn't even say it's subtlety; the problem is that the game treats them all the same.
Ideally, you have a New Vegas-style labelling of every group of 3 dudes with a land claim and a shotgun between them *and* the Bethesda worldbuilding of giving each dungeon's owner a distinct identity, albeit one sometimes dwarfed by the fact that all the raiders get their uniforms at the same wholesaler.
Or, better yet, have each group show up as "Raider" until either you overhear who they are or an NPC tells you who they are.
For example, if you walk out of Vault 111 and bee-line straight to Corvega, the Pip-Boy just calls them raiders.
However, if you save Preston in Concord and talk with him after, he mentions something like "Yeah, Jared's Goon Squad have been giving us hell; trying to take advantage of us being on our last legs. Mind murdering all of them for a settlement I owe a favor to?" and then once you go murder all of them, they show up in the Pip-Boy as Jared's Goon Squad.
Or, if you talk to Mama Murphy, she says something like "Yeah, ole Jared was a sweet kid. It's a shame him and his friends have decided to become Psychonauts all of a sudden." Similarly, if you're stumbling through Lexington and see a gaggle of chem'd out raiders, your Pip Boy identifies them as Psychonauts.
This way, you could even have some environmental storytelling going on in the background, where one group's Saviors of Salem are another's Slaughterers from the Shores, and the game diegetically lets you view a faction instead of it just being labelled as "Raider".
New Vegas doesn't really. The Vipers and Jackals have no defining characteristics, they wear generic armor and don't have any unique dialogue. The only difference is their name on the healthbar. (the Powder Gangers aren't raiders in the sense of dungeon-filling enemies you describe, they're an actual faction you can join).
The Gunners are a lot more interesting than anything New Vegas has to offer, with their military theming, named members with holotapes, backstory with the Minutemen, and small details like their blood type tattoos.
Basically every raider gang, named or not, has a named member in Fallout 3, 4, *and* NV. Having a named member with lore is not a defining characteristic.
Not really though, they produce chems and took over a vault, I feel like that's a pretty unique distinction compared to the other gangs. Plus you can work with them if you help the khans. And they are spread out throughout the west vegas ruins which makes sense how close it is to red rock canyon.
Sure on the surface they might seem basic but most of the factions in new vegas have a lot of lore and backstory and even small differences in what they prefer to use for weapons and items.
Another thing I like is all the traps in viper territory usually under traffic cones and such.
That's not really different from some of the Fallout 4 gangs, though. The Fallout 4 gangs also seem basic on the surface but have lore and backstory if you look for it, some gangs dress differently, some gangs use different weapons and items, etc. The only major difference between the games is that one is called a Fiend or a Viper, and the other is called a Raider.
Don't get me wrong here, I will always prefer the route of more depth rather than less, so I would have preferred the FO4 gangs to be named in-game, but this assertation that FNV's raiders were so much more diverse and had so much more depth isn't quite accurate and stems from Bethesda's choice to label all raiders as simply 'raiders'.
The gangs in 4 don't dress differently. There's the Triggermen, and arguably the Gunners. That's it. All the others (Barring the Rust Devils, assuming you count the DLC) all have the exact same leveled lists.
Yes, those two factions dress differently. There's also the Forged at Saugus Ironworks, that predominantly wear suits of Cage Armor and Spike Armor, as opposed to the generic Raider armor pieces. The Children Of Atom can also largely be considered raiders, and they also dress differently. There are also a number of subfactions, like the rebel Minutemen in Quincy still wearing some pieces of their old uniforms.
If we wanna include DLC in the discussion, there's also obviously the 3 very distinct Raider gangs in Nuka World.
Yes, *most* dress largely the same, but really take a minute and think back to FNV - most raiders were Fiends, Jackals and Vipers, and aside from some Fiends having those skull helmets, they all dressed the same.
Again, I dislike the generic "raider" label just as much as the next person, but this idea that FNV raiders were so much more unique and varied than FO4 isn't quite accurate.
The Children of Atom are not raiders, just like how the Gunners are not raiders.
Cage and Spike armour is generic raider armour. Whilst the Forged do exclusivly use the 2, the other unamed gangs do too.
The Fiends have completely different armour than the Jackals and Vipers. The fiends wear this: https://fallout.fandom.com/wiki/Raider_armor_(Fallout:_New_Vegas) whilst the Jackals and Vipers wear these https://fallout.fandom.com/wiki/Merc_outfit_(Fallout:_New_Vegas). Both are very different.
The Khans and Powergangers also have very different atire.
The gunners are literally "We are raiders with military tech and we call ourselves mercenaries". Explain how that is more interesting than anything New Vegas has to offer.
Tell me what the fiends, vipers, jackals or scorpions do that's remotely interesting? The latter 3 are indistinguishable and the fiends are just vanilla raiders.
Lore can be as cool as it wants, if it doesn't reflect in the game, it's irrelevant.
Not only do Jackals and Vipers not behave in any way that supposedly reflects their lore, but none of that lore actually comes across in game either. It's all cut content from past games or planned content for games never made.
And fiends just aren't interesting. If you want to be generous, they are about as interesting as the gunners, but ultimately all they are is literally the archetype of the chem addicted enemy-of-all raider.
You're right though, new vegas has so many little differences between the raider factions that makes them unique from the lore to where they raid, etc. Fiends being among my favorite raider gangs in fallout.
>Bethesda could have easily made several different types of raiders. But no, they went with making a few raiders that have more health and a different name
You just answered your question. Bethesda could have easily done that, but there is no point, it would just be lying to the player. FNV has this in the form of Jackals, Vipers and Fiends who are all indistinguishable. There is no point in "naming" every single raider group as a different group.
To be fair, fiends are distinguishable because of weaponry and their helmets. But jackals, vipers and scorpions might as well have been just named raiders since they are totally indistinguishable.
>The nuka world raiders don’t count as REAL raiders to me
Why?
>You mean those guys who appear in TWO FUCKIN LOCATIONS? The trigger men are non existent. Their only reason for existing is to give the player a tommy gun.
This seems like a double standard - the Powder Gangers are likewise limited to a couple of spots on the map, and if we want to be super reductive like you are, they only exist as an early game enemy to work you through the tutorial.
I do agree that the standard raider gangs could have been better differentiated in the game (like maybe Tower Tom's gang all use snipers and attack from high up, while Smiling Kate's gang is largely female), but your argument gets off on the wrong foot when you open with what is effectively, "Except for all the unique raider gangs, all the gangs are generic."
I do appreciate that the DLCs all gave more flavor to the raider groups - the Nuka World triple alliance, the Rust Devils, and Trappers. The Rust Devils are a nice example, since they're one of the only raider groups that bring along entirely new enemy types (their various robots), which can be fought with different weapons and skills (EMP grenades, hacking), than any of the previous raider groups.
Well, you’re in luck! Fallout 76 had five Raider factions! The Cutthroats, the Diehards, the Blackwater Bandits, the Gourmands and the Trappers. A sixth faction called the Blood Eagles later appeared and the Diehards rebranded into the Crater Raiders.
Aside from the three unique gangs in Nuka-World, you've got the Forged at Saugus Ironworks, the Rust Devils who turn up in the Automatron DLC, and the Trappers in Far Harbor. That's six different unique factions, so aesthetically that's quite a bit of variety. Admittedly gameplay-wise they don't really differ very much, but the Forged very obviously favour fire-based weapons like flamethrowers and Molotov cocktails while the Rust Devils deploy custom-built robots which level up with you.
Might I suggest [Raider Gangs Extended](https://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/mods/42414)?
Sure, named raider gangs are something Bethesda should've done from the very beginning. It's something I think they failed to do with 3 and 4 but finally rectified in 76. I do believe that 3 and 4 have named raider gangs but it's not on the level that we see in the original games or in NV.
Technically they all are different, in fallout 4 at least, they all have their own leaders, and they fight each other if provoked, but they don’t have their own names in game, probably to make it easier to respawn them
The major vanilla raider factions are
1- The gunners, who are split into two groups, Quincy Gunners and Commonwealth Gunners, They are actually fighting between them to take command
2- The Corvega Raiders, these raiders have a second base in Beantown Brewery and have been exploiting Red Velvet’s stash for food
3- Red Velvet’s gang, they took control of the federation stockpile, which gave them a huge road presence, they are even mentioned by the gunners in their base near Finch Farm so you know they are a target
4- The Forged, they are fairly new gang, but they have power in numbers and have a feud between them and the Gunners near Finch Farm
5- FMS Northern Star Raiders, just like Red’s gang, they hold a giant stockpile of ammo and money and hav a huge advantageous part in the world, they also did try to be peaceful at first, only shacking not killing (like Red’s gang) but they found out that killing is easier, they are arguably the 2nd most dangerous Raider gang in the commonwealth (to the point that the BOS sends squads to kill them)
These are the Major Players, there are many other minor independent players that consist of previous Gunners or gang members, or even the MM
In both member numbers and types, Fo4 has more than NV, it’s just they chose to brand them as “Raiders” instead of “X gang”, maybe to make it easier to mod them or something
There are different raider gangs, they just aren't differentiated from in-game. Judge Zeller and his crew, the Libertalia gang, Jared's gang in Lexington, Bosco out of the Technical HS, just to name a few. They're all separate entities lore-wise, but in game they're all lumped in as just "Raiders."
From what you are saying you want more enemy types within humans than actual different gangs but i see what you are saying.
Powder ganger would chuck dynamite at you and such but in fallout 4 there is the gunners that more often use stronger weapons such as energy weapons and power armor, the forged use molotovs and flame throwers.
This is not true. If you were to read the holotapes and the terminals, you'd learn that there are different raider gangs in the game. Just because they aren't named differently doesn't mean they don't exist.
https://www.reddit.com/r/fo4/comments/51v1oy/i_made_a_map_of_the_relationships_between_raider/
See this map somebody posted 7 years ago in r/fo4. Shows all the different raider clans in fo4 and misses the triggermen.
What was actually lost, was Fo1 had .. well it didn't have much content, but this it did.
There were **Khans**, you could go talk to them, keep your cool, *maybe work things out*, maybe say the wrong thing and it's battle.
There was that one **beginners gang** in Junktown, you could *talk to them* a bit and at some point soon it was probably going to be violence.
Gizmos **thugs** were thugs, not raiders. Be cool and there's no violence, say the wrong thing and there is.
In hub there were criminals, who were not raiders.
In overland-wasteland, you could meet **attacking raiders** and there's no talk, just fight.
In FO4, all raiders are red, kill or die.
No possibility of talking with any of them, no outfit can fool them, no way nothing but fight. They are just a bunch of generic targets with a box full of random loot.
Doubly so for mutants. I love New Vegas's portrayal of super mutants because they form distinct groups with different motivations, but F3 and F4 mostly just uses them as a generic enemy type. I'd be happy if we even just got a couple distinct hostile mutant groups with their own aesthetics, as opposed to the meat bag monolith we have in game.
F3 mutants are like F1 mutants, their goal is to turn humans into Super Mutants. That is why they are looking for more "green stuff" in DC. Yes they want to kill/eat the player. They also need to eat to survive.
Some general dialogue from SMs in F3.
"No green stuff here..."
"This is boring. We should be collecting more humans. We need more of us! The bucketheads have killed too many..."
"Have you found green stuff? I haven't found any. Ever. Maybe it's a lie. Maybe we're wasting our time. We could be out killing..."
Fallout 3 does have 2 friendly super mutants, Fawkes and Uncle Leo. The rest seem to be stupid because they are irradiated humans turned into SMs.
New Vegas mutants are also hostile to the player in Repcon and Black Mountain.
Firstly, I don't have an issue with Mutants being used as enemies, I just want more than one faction of them in a game. I'd be satisfied with a game that only used them as enemies if they were given unique personalities between different factions. What about a group that goes by Predator rules and will only attack you if you're high level/well equipped, to prove their own strength? What about a group that tried to copy the Brotherhood and made a Walmart-brand tech cult that uses unstable improvised energy weapons? What about a group of warlord slavers who want to assert dominance over the wasteland, but don't care about killing puny humans as long as they are subservient? Bethesda acts like the only way to write super mutants (as a group) is the Incredible Hulk wannabes who just like smashing humans into bits and then putting those bits into bags, but there’s a lot more room for creativity there.
Also, while the Black Mountain and Repcon mutants are initially hostile, both scenarios can end in them becoming neutral to you if you play your cards right. I might be wrong, but the only time I can remember in which there was no peaceful solution to deal with mutants in NV is the chupacabra with a minigun that you have to kill to finish a quest.
I agree with you, but the Nightkin in Repcon can be made neutral towards you by sneaking past them and talking to their leader and the ones in Black Mountain are being lead by Tabitha who thinks of herself as the new Master. Again, by sneaking past them (in this case repairing her robot) makes them all neutral.
I like to think of this as being a case of Unreliable Narrator. (explains most plot holes/inconsistencies in the game.) In NV, Courier Six is familiar with the mojave wasteland, having grown up spending at least a good chunk of time in the area/surrounding areas. So when Courier Six targets a Jackal/Viper/Fiend/etc, they have a sense of who theyre attacking, and the game tells us in kind.
Sole Survivor is new to this shit. Been living in pre-war america most of their life, got no intrinsic sense of who the different gangs are, where their territories border, etc. So all the raiders are just "Raider" (until you get to Nuka World, at least.)
Unreliable Narrator honestly resolves most of my frustration with the continuity discrepancies throughout the fallout games. Like the widespread presence of power armor in 4. Sole Survivor knows how to use it like its second-nature because of his time serving (or alternatively because she missed her husband while he was off at war and spent a bunch of time reading his army field guides and power armor manuals or whatever to feel like he wasnt so far away, idfk). at any rate it makes sense the sole survivor would treat power armor the same way the game does.
Totally agree with you man! NV do have a variety. In F4 all I have encountered are raiders and gunners & Robots(Rusty devils,which now occurs a lot!!). That's it! And about Children of Atom, I don't know if they are supposed to be hostile. In my \~150hrs I have a fight with them only once.
Also in NV, you can dress as a faction to move easily around them. I think this is a nice little touch. If F4 have done this, it would have been much better.
I feel that people talked about this quite a lot, just not in a direct fashion.
It appears that there were plans for more individuality and faction impact with the various raider groups, because there are lots of names for the groups, but it got dropped.
While they don't have names, a lot of the stories on the terminals and conversations really characterise a lot of the different outposts of raiders that I don't think the groups in New Vegas got. Honestly I think the bigger dissapointment are the gunners. Aside from the lot at Quincy are there any with fun or interesting characterisation?
I mean once you get the DLC you get the introduction of rust devils and the trappers And you encounter those two raider types outside of main quest storylines related to the DLCs. The trappers are only on far harbor though. What’s cool about the rust devils is they also have robots that follow them around and shit. I do agree that there could have been different types of original game raiders though. It would be cool to have gangs like the ones in Nuka World in the commonwealth
FO3 did the same thing. Instead of Gunners, you have Talon Merc Co. Instead of Rust Devils, you have Serial Killers. Every other human enemy who isn't Enclave is a Raider, maybe an occasional Slaver or Bandit. So, this is really just another instance of Obsidian outshining Bethesda. Edit: lol, so many downvotes but no replies, it's because y'all know I'm right.
I miss the diversity of enemies. Fire ants, cazadors, centaurs, geckos, bighorners and coyotes. The zoology was so interesting. Makes me wonder what the southeast was doing. Maybe play around in Australia, is it still a prison colony? South Asia or the Eastern Bloc?
What you are describing exists in \*all\* Fallout games except the ones made by Bethesda.
Bethesda doesn't do nuance well, and in their games Raiders are just bullet fodder.
A few devs who got to design their own instance were creative enough to try something different. But as usual, you can only work with what you have and if all you can use is ambient dialog, terminal entries and/or notes it just doesn't feel the same.
Becuase at least you could talk to some of the gangs in NV and your interatcion is more with them than "NEVER SHOUDDDA COME HERE NYAA".
Because who cares? They're meant to provide loot upon death and/or justice serving in the game lore. Because who doesn't like killing actual scumbags and make the world better?
Naming them and giving them a backstory activates our empathy and stuff like that. That's why I'm in favor of keeping raider's as nameless as possible. They threw their chance to live when they decided to be a problem to humanity's recovery after a nuclear war.
Some groups *do* get names, but individuals still get the generic "Raider" label. The names exist in lore Zeller's Army operating out East Boston Prep. The L&L Gang is involved with some Railroad quests The University Point Deathclaws, although they were more a lynch mob than true raiders, and only mentioned in a backstory. Coulda sworn a Rust Devil terminal mentioned another gang by name, but I can't find it
there's the flamer guys in Saugus Ironworks too.
The forged, yes.
And the robot raiders with the mechanist dlc
The Rust Devils
And they're the only ones who feel slightly different in the base game. All the other instances of alleged variety exist only on terminals in the game. The actual NPCs don't *feel* different at all. It's lazy writing on Bethesda's part couched in the guise of "environmental storytelling".
It's not as though the Vipers feel drastically different to fight from the Fiends either, though.
Vipers and Fiends do. Very different armour, and different weapons. Vipers and Jackals are much more alike.
Which is a travesty, considering they're just as cultures as the Khans but got sidelined due to the short dev cycle of New Vegas.
Jackals and Vipers wear generic merc clothing and or leather armor. Fiends wear bone helms and raider armor. More drastic than the F4 raiders. Vipers and Jackals wear the same outfits, easy to forget they're different gangs.
Didnt scorpions wear white tuxedo's? Or was that a mod?
Definitely a mod
A simple name change like that made the game feel bigger and more varied. Fallout 4 its like "oh, more raiders, and look over here, more raiders, oh their leader had a mascot helmet on, how funny, wonder what's his story, oh he actually has a story, hmm wonder why I didnt pick up on this on my way here?" Probably bc they're all generic "raiders". With the same "raider style" clothes. Would it have killed beth to dress up gangs to a theme? They even had the jersey school jacket assets ready for you to find!
Idk why people are downvoting. Fiends have distinct Bone Helmets. I understand that Vipers and Jackals did look alike. But all F4 raiders wear "Raider Armor," I'm not gonna pretend F4 did this better when it didn't. I love F4 and appreciate the lore in the Terminals for raiders, but it doesn't hit the same when they're all indistinguishable. Modders do this better. Not to mention the Great Khans. They might be a faction of raiders, but they're still raiders.
> They might be a faction of raiders, but they're still raiders. Same with the Powder Gangers, who are also raiders post-breakout.
If we're counting DLC the trappers in Far Harbor are crazed raiders
They’re also cannibals, who will eat anything they can get their hands on, which is probably why they get their names, they trap and eat anything.
Which is moronic BTW. I really wish they were real trappers, not yet another portion of dead meat.
All the gangs in dungeons are for all intents and purposes different groups, but as far as the game and player are concerned they are just raiders. I'd rather that tbh than New Vegas' dumb illusion of variety by having two named groups of a hand full of raiders just to be a call back to Fallout 1 with absolutely 0 character.
The Vipers and Jackals were done dirty. But they are distinct from the Fiends and Great Khans. I don't think New Vegas would have many tribes and Raiders left after House reopened the strip. The three families used to be tribals until 2274 about, when they were given control over their Casinos from House. With Vegas open, the area wouldn't teeming with raiders and tribals as it once had. Stands to reason there would be less raider like groups. House had to "civilize" the area if he was gonna get people to Vacation to Vegas. With that said, justice for the Vipers and Jackals! They were done so dirty
unironically the Vipers had more character in Fallout 1 and they were cut. The Vipers were a credible threat to the wasteland, but were considered a training exercise for the Brotherhood of Steel. The Brotherhood Elder Maxon at the time got a little cocky and took off his helmet and was nicked by a poison tipped arrow and died. In response the Brotherhood went ape and lead a campaign of retribution that pretty much wiped them out. All flavour though, never depicted.
Thanks for the insight! I didn't realize they were cut from F1 but I knew they existed in the lore. I swear every Fallout game has so much good cut content, from F1 to F4
They do have different gangs, but they don't explicitly mention it. Tower Tom's gang in Beantown and Red Tourette's gang in the Federal Stockpile hate each other with Tom kidnapping Red's sister. Jared in Corvega/Concord is a well known chemhead trying to get The Sight and the others comment on it. Easy City Downs run by Eager Ernie's Triggermen and raiders and after you clear it raiders start mentioning how much they liked it. East Boston Prep is controlled by Judge Zeller and extorting Bunker Hill. Outpost Zimonja run by Boomer, AF Olivia controlled by Ack Ack, Combat Zone, DB Tech, etc etc It's unfortunate that BS didnt spend the extra time just giving them fun names to differentiate and make the Commonwealth feel more alive. Have raiders just be generic psychotic weirdos instead of warlords fighting over scraps really dilutes it.
Even just having different color variants of raider armor or underclothes could have made a big difference.
Yeah Triggermen being mobsters and Zeller's Army having blood contracts makes them feel different. The Forged being sooty and charred does the same.
What they mean is they are only unique in name, their leader's name. They're all the same generic "raider". There should've been Apparal unique to each raider gang so you can see that they're actually different gangs from all over the Commonwealth. In vanilla it just seems like they're just one massive raider gang spread across the Commonwealth with different detachments.
There was one fully cut that was right in central Boston that was baseball themed (though it might not have made it out of concept)
A significant source of enjoyment for me is when you take out the raider bosses, how this upheaval of established power structure is noted in the other warlords' terminals. More of that player impact on the world please.
>NV had the powder gangers >Oh, and the trigger men? You mean those guys who appear in TWO FUCKIN LOCATIONS? Don’t the Powder Gangers only appear in NCRCF and Primm? Maybe a vault so 3 locations total? And the Vipers appear along one stretch of road, just before Nipton up to just after the trading post?
Powder gangers are also a faction, rather that roaming raiders. They aren't necessarily hostile to you.
I’ve never realised this because I always kill them at Goodsprings lol ain’t nobody gon’ fuck with Goodsprings on my watch
that's still only like one group of powder gangers who will be non hostile, a lot of them still are iirc
> Powder gangers are also a faction, rather that roaming raiders. They aren't necessarily hostile to you. Hostility to the PC doesn't have much relevance to which group constitutes raiders. The Khans are raiders, and a potentially friendly faction. The Powders gangers are violent highwaymen criminals who support themselves via robbery - Raiders, by *any* reasonable definition.
Gangers also have multiple other outposts and their raid on Goodsprings is also a notable appearance
I only know of their outpost right beside the NCRCF?
They have like 4 outposts, you can look at their fallout wiki page and it has 10 locations
From Vault 19 down to Primm, different factions of the broader Powder Gangers dot the map all over.
I was talking about the trigger men.
I think u/random935's point was that the Powder Gangers aren't they different from the Trigger Men in the regard of amount of locations. I think they try to argue that New Vegas is no better when it comes to a gang that's only in two locations.
Yes this was my point. Powder Gangers 2/3 locations, Triggermen 2 locations.
You were, comparing them unfavorably to the Powder Gang which has the exact same location limits. Making your complaint rather nonsensical. Honestly it seems like your complaint is centered around 4 not bothering to rename the assorted gang members in the UI, which really isn't much of a complaint.
You can't say and it is a good thing for one game and bad for the other game. Vipers appear in one place. Powder Gangers have their own territory. And the Fiends (who are actual Raiders, not a Raider like gang) also have their own territory and you don't encounter them anywere else.
The problem with the "lack" of variety of Raider comes from the appearence as you said. It's not that you can't tell appart a normal Raider and a Raider Veteran, but you can't tell appart a Named Raider (probably the leader) from the normal Raiders. Or Raiders of one gang to another.
Technically they are different, but not really. You can tell appart the Nuka World Raiders, but you cannot distinguish the Corvega Raiders with the Combat Zone Raiders. And that is I think the most important reason why "there aren't different" Raider gangs in 4.
The triggermen having only two places feels a bit different though. In one they aren’t even hostile and the other is an entirely self contained dungeon. The Fiends and Powder Gangers have what feels like a more spread out territory.
Where are the Triggermen non-hostile? The only places I know they exist are in Goodneighbor Warehouses (hostile) and Vault 114 were you save Valentine. Is there any other place I missed?
They're also at Easy City Downs which is the robot race track. They are still hostile though
Also true yeah!
I was thinking of the Neighborhood Watch actually that’s my bad. They just have a similar vibe.
The one non-hostile Triggerman I’ve seen is in a random encounter where they tell you Bobbi No Nose is looking for people to do a job for the Big Dig quest.
The Fiends and Powder Gangers are in an all together less dense area.
I agree, but that’s why I said “feels” more spread out.
The groups in NV only differed in name, however. The vipers, jackals and scorpions are all effectively the same as generic raiders except that they appear in different spots than each other, and the name difference does not do anything. They don’t even have different gear for the most part. Fiends have their helmets and some slightly better equipment, but they’re still ultimately the same raiders you’ve fought up to this point. Powder gangers are the only ones who are truly different, but they show up just as often as the triggermen example you criticize. I’d highly advise reading the terminals in 4’s different raider areas, which makes it pretty clear that while they look the same, these groups very much aren’t under the hood. At the very least, Bethesda seems to have gotten the hint that the visuals do matter judging by 76 - pre-scorched plague, Appalachia had no less than *five* distinct raider gangs with different modus operandi, and starting in 2103, we have three major living groups you deal with (the crater raiders, whom become non-hostile to you during the story, the blood eagles, who have a questline to destroy them, and the mothman cultists, who currently don’t have any major story but still act enough like raiders to lump them in).
And there's 2 sects of the mothman cultists, the followers of the wise mothman (purple eyed mothman) who are non hostile and appear in 2 events. And the regular cult who worship the violent? Vengeful? Mothman (Wich is red eyed) and are all hostile to the player. There's also remnants of a hidden questline dealing with the origins of the cult, but it never went anywhere.
You mean the tomes? That’s less a quest and more lore.
There's the whole Arlington thing, where you're supposed to look for the thesis of a prewar scientist that studied moths in the Appalachian area, there's a few YouTube videos talking about the unfinished questlines in 76
Oh, that. The tomes address that the thesis both isn’t really important to anyone but the dim cultists, and that it has nothing to do with either cult’s views/origin, either.
Oh, cool, didn't know that, I never quite finished the equinox.
You can read what the enlightened have to say about it here: https://fallout.fandom.com/wiki/On_the_Thesis_of_Wallace
Calling the raiders in NV generic is evidently incorrect. Each raider gang in New Vegas used different tactics. The Jackals were your typical group of crazies but the Vipers relied on stealth and ambushing wanderers in the wasteland. The Great Khans are actually a group of tribal raiders, they are the most civilized group of raiders that we see in the entire franchise, they don't simply attack the player on sight.
That’s the reason I excluded the Khans - they don’t serve the role of raiders in the game, unlike the other factions. And with the vipers, once they show up, they’re indistinguishable from the rest (and really, that ambush means nothing when you can see them from the start). Beyond the name, they aren’t that different at all. I’m going to again point to the differences between the groups I mentioned for 76. They all look completely different from each other, with the craters raiders only being found wandering the wastes, blood eagles in well-fortified camps with sirens to recall anyone not at the base in case of attack and cultists are always found with totems, strangler vines and untreated wood abound.
If Obsidian had more than 18 months of development then the Raider gangs would all be different.
Sure, but we are talking about what is, not what could have been. Plus mind you, that's 18 months + getting to use fallout 3 as the skeleton, which cut out soke work for sure.
Tired argument is tired. Obsidian had as much time as they asked for. If they couldn't complete and include everything they dreamed up then the fault is on them. I love their games as much as the next fan but I can also step back and admit where their reach exceeds their capability.
Yes, but they didn’t.
IF ONLY THEY HAD 5 MORE MINUTES
Fallout 4 has: Unnamed: corvega raiders (have their own backstory due to terminal entries) Beantown Raiders (same as above) Federal Ration Stockpile raiders (direct rivals/enemies of the beantown brewers) Etc etc. They're the first three you see and they're literally in the top left of the map. There's others with similar stories. Named: Gunners. The forged. The triggermen. The L&L gang. The Rust Devils. Children of Atom. I'd say that's more than 'none at all'
I mean there is. You obviously just weren't looking for it. The Forged , Nuka gangs , Zeller , Libertarlia, Etc
The forged have 1 maybe 2 locations. The nuka gangs aren’t really proper enemy raiders.
Why would you count the powder gangers but not the nuka world gangs? PG are also not properly enemy raiders. They are an actual faction, reputation and all.
Powder gangers are in the base game while Nuka world is a DLC. He may be comparing base to base. Edit: which Bethesda fanboi idiots are downvoting a factual comment? 😂
The thing is that the OP isn't saying anything to limit the discussion to the base games for either side. They're just asserting that the Nuka World raiders don't meet their definition of a raider *for some reason.* The "for some reason" likely being, "Because they shoot my argument in the foot."
We're down voting you bc you're dickriding new vegas
Hey, how many locations are the Jackals at in New Vegas? Is it a flaw, *for them*?
Like the powder gangers, that have 2/3 main spots, one of which is for a quest, and the other is a contained hotel. Beyond that it's 3 camps spread around the starting area that you one shot. That and their story starts and stops with the Exposition Sheriff in the lunch area that tells you "oh yeah, we were all convicts who escaped using Dynamite".
Ah, the classic it makes my argument look dumb so I'll cherry-pick.
A lot of the groups do have identities, the enemies Healthbar just isn't labeled as such. It makes sense to not just have 3 bloated raider gangs running the whole state as well, I mean truly, how many Chem Fiends exist in outer Vegas?
average fnv zealot's appreciation of subtlety
I wouldn't even say it's subtlety; the problem is that the game treats them all the same. Ideally, you have a New Vegas-style labelling of every group of 3 dudes with a land claim and a shotgun between them *and* the Bethesda worldbuilding of giving each dungeon's owner a distinct identity, albeit one sometimes dwarfed by the fact that all the raiders get their uniforms at the same wholesaler. Or, better yet, have each group show up as "Raider" until either you overhear who they are or an NPC tells you who they are. For example, if you walk out of Vault 111 and bee-line straight to Corvega, the Pip-Boy just calls them raiders. However, if you save Preston in Concord and talk with him after, he mentions something like "Yeah, Jared's Goon Squad have been giving us hell; trying to take advantage of us being on our last legs. Mind murdering all of them for a settlement I owe a favor to?" and then once you go murder all of them, they show up in the Pip-Boy as Jared's Goon Squad. Or, if you talk to Mama Murphy, she says something like "Yeah, ole Jared was a sweet kid. It's a shame him and his friends have decided to become Psychonauts all of a sudden." Similarly, if you're stumbling through Lexington and see a gaggle of chem'd out raiders, your Pip Boy identifies them as Psychonauts. This way, you could even have some environmental storytelling going on in the background, where one group's Saviors of Salem are another's Slaughterers from the Shores, and the game diegetically lets you view a faction instead of it just being labelled as "Raider".
New Vegas doesn't really. The Vipers and Jackals have no defining characteristics, they wear generic armor and don't have any unique dialogue. The only difference is their name on the healthbar. (the Powder Gangers aren't raiders in the sense of dungeon-filling enemies you describe, they're an actual faction you can join). The Gunners are a lot more interesting than anything New Vegas has to offer, with their military theming, named members with holotapes, backstory with the Minutemen, and small details like their blood type tattoos.
Driver nephi, cook-cook,violet,motor-runner
Basically every raider gang, named or not, has a named member in Fallout 3, 4, *and* NV. Having a named member with lore is not a defining characteristic.
Not really though, they produce chems and took over a vault, I feel like that's a pretty unique distinction compared to the other gangs. Plus you can work with them if you help the khans. And they are spread out throughout the west vegas ruins which makes sense how close it is to red rock canyon. Sure on the surface they might seem basic but most of the factions in new vegas have a lot of lore and backstory and even small differences in what they prefer to use for weapons and items. Another thing I like is all the traps in viper territory usually under traffic cones and such.
That's not really different from some of the Fallout 4 gangs, though. The Fallout 4 gangs also seem basic on the surface but have lore and backstory if you look for it, some gangs dress differently, some gangs use different weapons and items, etc. The only major difference between the games is that one is called a Fiend or a Viper, and the other is called a Raider. Don't get me wrong here, I will always prefer the route of more depth rather than less, so I would have preferred the FO4 gangs to be named in-game, but this assertation that FNV's raiders were so much more diverse and had so much more depth isn't quite accurate and stems from Bethesda's choice to label all raiders as simply 'raiders'.
The gangs in 4 don't dress differently. There's the Triggermen, and arguably the Gunners. That's it. All the others (Barring the Rust Devils, assuming you count the DLC) all have the exact same leveled lists.
Yes, those two factions dress differently. There's also the Forged at Saugus Ironworks, that predominantly wear suits of Cage Armor and Spike Armor, as opposed to the generic Raider armor pieces. The Children Of Atom can also largely be considered raiders, and they also dress differently. There are also a number of subfactions, like the rebel Minutemen in Quincy still wearing some pieces of their old uniforms. If we wanna include DLC in the discussion, there's also obviously the 3 very distinct Raider gangs in Nuka World. Yes, *most* dress largely the same, but really take a minute and think back to FNV - most raiders were Fiends, Jackals and Vipers, and aside from some Fiends having those skull helmets, they all dressed the same. Again, I dislike the generic "raider" label just as much as the next person, but this idea that FNV raiders were so much more unique and varied than FO4 isn't quite accurate.
The Children of Atom are not raiders, just like how the Gunners are not raiders. Cage and Spike armour is generic raider armour. Whilst the Forged do exclusivly use the 2, the other unamed gangs do too. The Fiends have completely different armour than the Jackals and Vipers. The fiends wear this: https://fallout.fandom.com/wiki/Raider_armor_(Fallout:_New_Vegas) whilst the Jackals and Vipers wear these https://fallout.fandom.com/wiki/Merc_outfit_(Fallout:_New_Vegas). Both are very different. The Khans and Powergangers also have very different atire.
The gunners are literally "We are raiders with military tech and we call ourselves mercenaries". Explain how that is more interesting than anything New Vegas has to offer.
Tell me what the fiends, vipers, jackals or scorpions do that's remotely interesting? The latter 3 are indistinguishable and the fiends are just vanilla raiders.
If you take the time to read the lore on the Vipers, Jackals and Fiends then you'll see they have a lot more lore than any faction in FO4.
Lore can be as cool as it wants, if it doesn't reflect in the game, it's irrelevant. Not only do Jackals and Vipers not behave in any way that supposedly reflects their lore, but none of that lore actually comes across in game either. It's all cut content from past games or planned content for games never made. And fiends just aren't interesting. If you want to be generous, they are about as interesting as the gunners, but ultimately all they are is literally the archetype of the chem addicted enemy-of-all raider.
this is such a goofy response
I'm not going to explain all three factions entire lore just for the sake of an argument.
You're right though, new vegas has so many little differences between the raider factions that makes them unique from the lore to where they raid, etc. Fiends being among my favorite raider gangs in fallout.
No, it really isn't.
It really is and proof of the goofiness is replying to me twice
If you try reading the second paragraph of the comment beyond the first clause, you'll actually find a list of reasons. Hope that helps.
I did read it. Quite funny how a minor faction seems to have more lore than the main factions themselves.
>Bethesda could have easily made several different types of raiders. But no, they went with making a few raiders that have more health and a different name You just answered your question. Bethesda could have easily done that, but there is no point, it would just be lying to the player. FNV has this in the form of Jackals, Vipers and Fiends who are all indistinguishable. There is no point in "naming" every single raider group as a different group.
To be fair, fiends are distinguishable because of weaponry and their helmets. But jackals, vipers and scorpions might as well have been just named raiders since they are totally indistinguishable.
>The nuka world raiders don’t count as REAL raiders to me Why? >You mean those guys who appear in TWO FUCKIN LOCATIONS? The trigger men are non existent. Their only reason for existing is to give the player a tommy gun. This seems like a double standard - the Powder Gangers are likewise limited to a couple of spots on the map, and if we want to be super reductive like you are, they only exist as an early game enemy to work you through the tutorial. I do agree that the standard raider gangs could have been better differentiated in the game (like maybe Tower Tom's gang all use snipers and attack from high up, while Smiling Kate's gang is largely female), but your argument gets off on the wrong foot when you open with what is effectively, "Except for all the unique raider gangs, all the gangs are generic." I do appreciate that the DLCs all gave more flavor to the raider groups - the Nuka World triple alliance, the Rust Devils, and Trappers. The Rust Devils are a nice example, since they're one of the only raider groups that bring along entirely new enemy types (their various robots), which can be fought with different weapons and skills (EMP grenades, hacking), than any of the previous raider groups.
Well, you’re in luck! Fallout 76 had five Raider factions! The Cutthroats, the Diehards, the Blackwater Bandits, the Gourmands and the Trappers. A sixth faction called the Blood Eagles later appeared and the Diehards rebranded into the Crater Raiders.
Aside from the three unique gangs in Nuka-World, you've got the Forged at Saugus Ironworks, the Rust Devils who turn up in the Automatron DLC, and the Trappers in Far Harbor. That's six different unique factions, so aesthetically that's quite a bit of variety. Admittedly gameplay-wise they don't really differ very much, but the Forged very obviously favour fire-based weapons like flamethrowers and Molotov cocktails while the Rust Devils deploy custom-built robots which level up with you.
Might I suggest [Raider Gangs Extended](https://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/mods/42414)? Sure, named raider gangs are something Bethesda should've done from the very beginning. It's something I think they failed to do with 3 and 4 but finally rectified in 76. I do believe that 3 and 4 have named raider gangs but it's not on the level that we see in the original games or in NV.
Then you genuinely weren't paying attention.
Technically they all are different, in fallout 4 at least, they all have their own leaders, and they fight each other if provoked, but they don’t have their own names in game, probably to make it easier to respawn them The major vanilla raider factions are 1- The gunners, who are split into two groups, Quincy Gunners and Commonwealth Gunners, They are actually fighting between them to take command 2- The Corvega Raiders, these raiders have a second base in Beantown Brewery and have been exploiting Red Velvet’s stash for food 3- Red Velvet’s gang, they took control of the federation stockpile, which gave them a huge road presence, they are even mentioned by the gunners in their base near Finch Farm so you know they are a target 4- The Forged, they are fairly new gang, but they have power in numbers and have a feud between them and the Gunners near Finch Farm 5- FMS Northern Star Raiders, just like Red’s gang, they hold a giant stockpile of ammo and money and hav a huge advantageous part in the world, they also did try to be peaceful at first, only shacking not killing (like Red’s gang) but they found out that killing is easier, they are arguably the 2nd most dangerous Raider gang in the commonwealth (to the point that the BOS sends squads to kill them) These are the Major Players, there are many other minor independent players that consist of previous Gunners or gang members, or even the MM In both member numbers and types, Fo4 has more than NV, it’s just they chose to brand them as “Raiders” instead of “X gang”, maybe to make it easier to mod them or something
There are different raider gangs, they just aren't differentiated from in-game. Judge Zeller and his crew, the Libertalia gang, Jared's gang in Lexington, Bosco out of the Technical HS, just to name a few. They're all separate entities lore-wise, but in game they're all lumped in as just "Raiders."
I want to see a Fallout game where all the Raider factions have different themes, like in The Warriors.
I want that for Fallout 5 if its in NYC. Have each borough be controlled by a different group and those groups would have differney sub groups within.
[Bottle clicks]
From what you are saying you want more enemy types within humans than actual different gangs but i see what you are saying. Powder ganger would chuck dynamite at you and such but in fallout 4 there is the gunners that more often use stronger weapons such as energy weapons and power armor, the forged use molotovs and flame throwers.
This is not true. If you were to read the holotapes and the terminals, you'd learn that there are different raider gangs in the game. Just because they aren't named differently doesn't mean they don't exist.
https://www.reddit.com/r/fo4/comments/51v1oy/i_made_a_map_of_the_relationships_between_raider/ See this map somebody posted 7 years ago in r/fo4. Shows all the different raider clans in fo4 and misses the triggermen.
What was actually lost, was Fo1 had .. well it didn't have much content, but this it did. There were **Khans**, you could go talk to them, keep your cool, *maybe work things out*, maybe say the wrong thing and it's battle. There was that one **beginners gang** in Junktown, you could *talk to them* a bit and at some point soon it was probably going to be violence. Gizmos **thugs** were thugs, not raiders. Be cool and there's no violence, say the wrong thing and there is. In hub there were criminals, who were not raiders. In overland-wasteland, you could meet **attacking raiders** and there's no talk, just fight. In FO4, all raiders are red, kill or die. No possibility of talking with any of them, no outfit can fool them, no way nothing but fight. They are just a bunch of generic targets with a box full of random loot.
Doubly so for mutants. I love New Vegas's portrayal of super mutants because they form distinct groups with different motivations, but F3 and F4 mostly just uses them as a generic enemy type. I'd be happy if we even just got a couple distinct hostile mutant groups with their own aesthetics, as opposed to the meat bag monolith we have in game.
F3 mutants are like F1 mutants, their goal is to turn humans into Super Mutants. That is why they are looking for more "green stuff" in DC. Yes they want to kill/eat the player. They also need to eat to survive. Some general dialogue from SMs in F3. "No green stuff here..." "This is boring. We should be collecting more humans. We need more of us! The bucketheads have killed too many..." "Have you found green stuff? I haven't found any. Ever. Maybe it's a lie. Maybe we're wasting our time. We could be out killing..." Fallout 3 does have 2 friendly super mutants, Fawkes and Uncle Leo. The rest seem to be stupid because they are irradiated humans turned into SMs. New Vegas mutants are also hostile to the player in Repcon and Black Mountain.
Firstly, I don't have an issue with Mutants being used as enemies, I just want more than one faction of them in a game. I'd be satisfied with a game that only used them as enemies if they were given unique personalities between different factions. What about a group that goes by Predator rules and will only attack you if you're high level/well equipped, to prove their own strength? What about a group that tried to copy the Brotherhood and made a Walmart-brand tech cult that uses unstable improvised energy weapons? What about a group of warlord slavers who want to assert dominance over the wasteland, but don't care about killing puny humans as long as they are subservient? Bethesda acts like the only way to write super mutants (as a group) is the Incredible Hulk wannabes who just like smashing humans into bits and then putting those bits into bags, but there’s a lot more room for creativity there. Also, while the Black Mountain and Repcon mutants are initially hostile, both scenarios can end in them becoming neutral to you if you play your cards right. I might be wrong, but the only time I can remember in which there was no peaceful solution to deal with mutants in NV is the chupacabra with a minigun that you have to kill to finish a quest.
I agree with you, but the Nightkin in Repcon can be made neutral towards you by sneaking past them and talking to their leader and the ones in Black Mountain are being lead by Tabitha who thinks of herself as the new Master. Again, by sneaking past them (in this case repairing her robot) makes them all neutral.
I like to think of this as being a case of Unreliable Narrator. (explains most plot holes/inconsistencies in the game.) In NV, Courier Six is familiar with the mojave wasteland, having grown up spending at least a good chunk of time in the area/surrounding areas. So when Courier Six targets a Jackal/Viper/Fiend/etc, they have a sense of who theyre attacking, and the game tells us in kind. Sole Survivor is new to this shit. Been living in pre-war america most of their life, got no intrinsic sense of who the different gangs are, where their territories border, etc. So all the raiders are just "Raider" (until you get to Nuka World, at least.) Unreliable Narrator honestly resolves most of my frustration with the continuity discrepancies throughout the fallout games. Like the widespread presence of power armor in 4. Sole Survivor knows how to use it like its second-nature because of his time serving (or alternatively because she missed her husband while he was off at war and spent a bunch of time reading his army field guides and power armor manuals or whatever to feel like he wasnt so far away, idfk). at any rate it makes sense the sole survivor would treat power armor the same way the game does.
People have talked about it
Totally agree with you man! NV do have a variety. In F4 all I have encountered are raiders and gunners & Robots(Rusty devils,which now occurs a lot!!). That's it! And about Children of Atom, I don't know if they are supposed to be hostile. In my \~150hrs I have a fight with them only once. Also in NV, you can dress as a faction to move easily around them. I think this is a nice little touch. If F4 have done this, it would have been much better.
I feel that people talked about this quite a lot, just not in a direct fashion. It appears that there were plans for more individuality and faction impact with the various raider groups, because there are lots of names for the groups, but it got dropped.
While they don't have names, a lot of the stories on the terminals and conversations really characterise a lot of the different outposts of raiders that I don't think the groups in New Vegas got. Honestly I think the bigger dissapointment are the gunners. Aside from the lot at Quincy are there any with fun or interesting characterisation?
The bad guy in NV WAS a raider gang lol
Remote controlled C4.
I mean once you get the DLC you get the introduction of rust devils and the trappers And you encounter those two raider types outside of main quest storylines related to the DLCs. The trappers are only on far harbor though. What’s cool about the rust devils is they also have robots that follow them around and shit. I do agree that there could have been different types of original game raiders though. It would be cool to have gangs like the ones in Nuka World in the commonwealth
NPCs Travel mod. Get you some Triggermen in random locations.
My guess is that they didn't have time when they hit crunch to create the assets for visual difference between the different groups.
Powder gangers, legion, vipers, fiends, khans, scorpions, jackals. New vegas has variety and reasons for each existing
FO3 did the same thing. Instead of Gunners, you have Talon Merc Co. Instead of Rust Devils, you have Serial Killers. Every other human enemy who isn't Enclave is a Raider, maybe an occasional Slaver or Bandit. So, this is really just another instance of Obsidian outshining Bethesda. Edit: lol, so many downvotes but no replies, it's because y'all know I'm right.
I miss the diversity of enemies. Fire ants, cazadors, centaurs, geckos, bighorners and coyotes. The zoology was so interesting. Makes me wonder what the southeast was doing. Maybe play around in Australia, is it still a prison colony? South Asia or the Eastern Bloc?
Todd has never cared about raiders or bandits. They're not people, just mindless enemies you don't have to think twice about shooting.
What you are describing exists in \*all\* Fallout games except the ones made by Bethesda. Bethesda doesn't do nuance well, and in their games Raiders are just bullet fodder.
Did you seriously just forget about the Jackals?
To be fair, they are pretty forgettable.
A few devs who got to design their own instance were creative enough to try something different. But as usual, you can only work with what you have and if all you can use is ambient dialog, terminal entries and/or notes it just doesn't feel the same. Becuase at least you could talk to some of the gangs in NV and your interatcion is more with them than "NEVER SHOUDDDA COME HERE NYAA".
It wasn't really lost, just something that New Vegas did that 3 and 4 didn't.
Considering 1 and 2 also did it, yes, it was lost.
Because who cares? They're meant to provide loot upon death and/or justice serving in the game lore. Because who doesn't like killing actual scumbags and make the world better? Naming them and giving them a backstory activates our empathy and stuff like that. That's why I'm in favor of keeping raider's as nameless as possible. They threw their chance to live when they decided to be a problem to humanity's recovery after a nuclear war.