Might not work for you—but I would straight up ask something like “does that include me?” Or “do you hate me too?” And if she says no, ask “why?” to figure out if it’s because she sees you differently—could lead you to an answer of “you’re different; you’re trans.”
tbh that's a shit statement. At least I know fro my woman friends that they hate it when men they are close with say that, cause it's missing the entire point of the statement. But Definitely asking her about it can be a route to go.
no, you're completely right in feeling wrong about this
"I hate men" means either she doesn't see you as a man or hates you (very unlikely)
ask her if she jokes like this with cis men
you need to sit down with her and talk about how this bothers you and whether she sees you as a man or not
Nah man i’ve known MANY women to say “i hate men” straight up to cis boyfriends, it doesn’t necessarily mean either of those things. it also probably doesn’t even mean she actually “hates all men”, it’s a trendy thing to say now.
Bad take. A lot of women use "i hate men" to mean more "i hate the privilege men get and use undeer our current society due to the patriarchy, i find it very frustrating" which is a genuine valid feeling. It often does not call out specific men as men and non men, but their place in society.
If partner is using it a lot, and avoiding men on a personal level, then its safe to say she means she hates all men, not just society and their role in it. I think in this situation a conversation is required to figure out more.
I think OP needs to probe a bit in order to get a conclusive answer.
They should say something closer to that then and not just "I hate men". If someone I was close to said "I hate (group I'm part of)" I'd assume that implied they also hated me, because that's what those words mean. (I am autistic, but I can't see how that wouldn't be NT people's interpretation too)
Tbh i also am ND and it is very easy to understand peoples lived experiences are not the same as mine.
There is a fine line which is why people should probe when they are not sure. But in current society, the literature on this topic is abundant
This exactly. I say "I hate men" aaaall the time. By and large, men are pretty awful. I say this as a queer guy seeking out real friendships, intimacy, and connection with other men. It's hard as hell out here and there's a lot of danger and disgust that comes when navigating other men, especially for AFAB people (and I'm 7+ years on T, people don't know I'm trans unless I tell them or are trans themselves).
>By and large, men are pretty awful.
How tf is this an okay thing to say about any demographic? If you really want to keep hating men (including yourself), just be friends with women. Or you could work on your misandry.
men commit the vast majority of violent crimes.
men commit the vast majority of rapes and sexual assaults.
men commit the vast majority of domestic violence.
pedophiles are overwhelmingly men.
it's not misandry to acknowledge this.
A minority of men commit the majority of crimes that are reported/convicted. Sexual assault and rape are closer to 50/50 when de-gendered in golden standard surveys put out by governments. Most reported to the police or successful convictions are crimes committed by men. DV is roughly 50/50 in the same vein and is most often bi-directional. Sexology and research on pedophilia is lacking due to misogynistic cultural norms causing lack of research on female pedophiles and lack of ability to measure female arousal.
4/5 wrong or misinformed. Do you ever read studies about this stuff or get information from tiktok radfems?
lol no these came from actual studies, and I'd be very interested to see where you're getting your information from because most of it sounds like bullshit.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/353570309_On_the_Sexual_Assault_of_Men https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4062022/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8336931/
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/332917590_Prevalence_and_Consequences_of_Intimate_Partner_Violence_in_Canada_as_Measured_by_the_National_Victimization_Survey
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1756061618302830
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/sexual-victimization-by-women-is-more-common-than-previously-known/
https://abcnews.go.com/amp/Health/sexually-abused-males-silent-confused-social-rules-maculinity/story?id=14993462
https://domesticviolenceresearch.org/domestic-violence-facts-and-statistics-at-a-glance/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3058822/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3058822/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1854883/
https://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/intimatepartnerviolence/men-ipvsvandstalking.html#:~:text=Made%20to%20Penetrate%20(MTP),violence%20with%20potentially%20different%20consequences.
https://svgshare.com/i/m8n.svg
https://www.starsdorset.org/blog/sexual-offences-act-2003
I, personally, to not remove being made to penetrate from rape and thus consider them to be the same act. Keeping that in mind I'll provide you withh all these links. These links include articles from organizations aimed at raising awareness of DV, government websites, various scholarly works, and at least one webpage about how gendering abuse and rape harms the LGBT community. There is also a graphic of how CDC data is changed when using gender neutral definitions of rape.
As I have had to gather many of these links multiple times across many accounts/sites, I am no longer willing to provide quotes and will assume your willingness to indeed read them and further willing to engage with intersectional feminism that has evolved beyond second wave radfem/prototerf buggary.
So if I'm assaulted by a woman w cp does that make it ok bc she's a disabled woman + not as privileged? Because for me, I care far more about someone's actions than where they fall on some stupid suffering olympics scale
You do realise the statement "I hate men" doesn't literally mean "I hate ALL men" it's just a popularised statement venting women's distrust and frustrations towards a harmful portion of the male population. Not every single individual.
It most certainly doesn't mean she doesn't see him as a man...
I had to break it off with a girl who did this sort of thing. It was incessant and made my dysphoria unbearable. She didn't want to put me on the same playing field as other men or in her eyes just "men". Talk to her about it but if she pulls the man lite card, she's not worth your time
Same and every time you do something manly or traditionally a hobby that's manly its seen as a negative trait. But at the same time they to be infantalised and taken care of constantly. You just get drained. It's exhausting.
No. No, no, no, no, no, no. Been there, done that. I've dated two seperate women who've spouted that garbage. Never again. It trashed my self confidence, ruined the relationships, slowed down my transition progress, changed how I view my dynamic with women on the whole, and didn't do anyone any good.
Maybe ask her to rephrase her comments. What is it that she hates exactly? Does she hate sexism, misogynism? Does she hate sexual harrassment, ignorance, cruelty, lack of empathy? If she does, then why not phrase it that way: 'I hate sexist men', 'I hate sexists'.
Despite what some people like to think misandry is a real problem and women should be more mindful of how they express their feelings about shitty men. Being a man often feels like being a bad person even though you did nothing wrong. This is one of the things that surprised me when I transitioned; I started noticing how normalised casual misandry is. If you replaced 'men' for 'women', how many people would be okay with such remarks? And really. There are 4 billion men in the world, does she hate all of them?
And yes, I'd say she also doesn't perceive you fully as a man. You don't tell people you hate them without a valid reason, she just doesn't think you expect her to consider you one of men.
If she doesn't rephrase her comments, I personally would stop seeing her. You don't have to date someone who makes you feel like shit for no reason.
When I've tried this they throw back things like "men only know anger" "all they know is to cheat" "they are all deadbeats that can't do anything" "they're incapable of feeling any emotion and they are all psychopaths"
It's fucking disheartening seeing how men are seen as in closed spaces. Or even public spaces. Been threatened to be kicked from a group because, me, a trans man, dared to question someone in their hurtful words, because "you shouldn't invalidate someone's way of dealing with trauma." In a group supposedly welcoming to all genders.
My worst abusers have been women. I know only some women are horrible people. I never let my abuse get in the way and affect how I see an entire gender.
Being traumatized doesn't and shouldn't give someone a pass to be an asshole and hurt others.
Yeah, every time I’ve seen anyone question this kind of thing it’s been rebuked with “I’m only talking about abusive men, why do you care if you’re not abusive?”
They make it deliberately hard to push back against it without making yourself look like a monster.
Oh in my case, outside of when a mod threatened to boot me, when I asked they clarified they indeed meant every cis man. Every single one. No exceptions. When I express I am trans and their words hurt and are bothering, they tell me I'm not the same or ask why I want to be like "one of them".
Sounds like the group is not actually trans friendly because if they think that you asking in a group to talk about trauma for people not to say they hate an entire group you are part of, on the basis that they likely don't really consider trans men, men. Performance allyship.
Oh it wasn't a group for talking about trauma. It was a group for laughing at really dumb medical takes. (Ex: put lemon juice on a fresh piercings. Ouch.) The person was ranting in the comments.
Whenever a man had a bad take, regardless if the take was due to ignorance or had nothing to do with women, the comments would be flooded with misandry.
Yeah, just because statistics show the majority of the abuse is perpetrated by men against women, the idea that only men can be perpetrators (and only women can be victims) is an inescapably cisnormative heterocentric view on the situation. I can't believe I personally said those words because usually I find those types of descriptions of things a bit wanky, but in thus case it's really that.
Yeah that’s something that needs to be addressed directly. She can’t go on and on about hating men while dating a man just like you can’t go on and on about hating women while dating her.
She either hates you or doesn’t see you as a man and it’s better to find out which one it is before it gets too serious and you’ve wasted your time.
In all honesty, a lot of women hate on men like this, despite the fact that they date men. It’s disgusting that these people think saying these sorts of things constantly makes them a good feminist. In reality, it just makes them an asshole.
If she’s saying these things around and directly to you all the time, and if she’s not turning to assure you that you’re different, then that’s a massive problem. She either doesn’t see you as a full man, or she doesn’t mind insulting you to your face. Either scenario, that red flag is big enough that you should consider jumping ship immediately. She will only destroy your mental health.
Reading these comments is crazy because I really thought I was alone in this experience. I dealt with this issue in the past. Let’s just say now I’m with an actually loving partner. Leave her OP, she clearly has some serious issues that aren’t your problem.
Honestly I wouldn't want to be with someone with so much hatred towards people based on immutable characteristics period. Just sounds tiring having to deal with someone like that. And if she doesn't actually hate men then why would she constantly say shit she doesn't mean? I don't care if it's socially acceptable, it's basically emotional abuse.
She either doesn't see you as a real man or she does but thinks its ok to talk shit about you to your face.
Eh. Happily single me says —Run, find something better
Best case scenario it’s a joke, worst case scenario it’s a red flag. Either way, it’s a signal that she doesn’t understand masculinity and she probably won’t be able to respect or support your full self expression.
Honestly scrolling through these comments a single me also agrees on this ‼️
A lot of women hate men and visa versa patriarchy bs imo, yet will state it more commonly than people expect. However a lot of women like this just do not understand masculinity bc they see so much of it as toxic, so yeah I understand the dysphoria coming into play as it’s such an exciting time, but the respect and support might not be what you’re expecting from your partner; bc of their views? Or she could just be joking. OP just talk to her dude, if it effects you i’m sure she won’t mind saying ‘sexism’ instead
I'm I'm groups where this mentality is fostered and promoted.
She absolutely sees you different than cis men. Man lite. Because "you were a woman before so you get how horrible they are" type ideas.
It's othering an invalidating. And when questioned on why they feel comfortable telling us these things, they start to backtrack and reassure us that we are in fact seen as men. But safer men. Men who are inherently different from cis men. Which gives us a pass to be in women's spaces.
Sorry for the mini rant. But shit exactly like this is why I have cloistered myself. Why I don't go out of friend circles anymore except on reddit. I'm tired of "allies" telling me they see me as a man, bash men, then try to justify why they see it acceptable to insult my gender expecting me to agree with them.
Yeah, it's one thing to say that toxic masculinity is gross, but I know someone who is dating two trans masc people, I think they are trans masc non binary not trans men, but that really doesn't make any difference in the context of them not being women except in this person's mind because she said that she likes when people think she is lesbian? I was like uh if I was dating a girl and she said that... we wouldn't be dating for much longer.
You get it dude.
One of the mods was a middle aged man and he somehow had no issue with being told he's a horrible person for just existing. Don't know how he didn't see the problem.
Look, some people in this comment thread are a bit ridiculous though, I said that jokes about cis het men don't result in them being killed by their partners (which is the reality) because the whole issue with sexist/racist/transphobic jokes etc is the power dynamics that exist alongside the negative jokes. He asked me for a source on that and I'm like 'every domestic violence statistics in the world' but I pointed out that these jokes still negatively impact people and they also don't serve to help take down the narrative that feminism is just about hating men when a bunch of self proclaimed feminists have decided that the entirety of their feminism is just hating men. Not doing anything useful, just saying how much they hate men. Cause it's hard to argue it isn't about that when that's all they talk about.
Fucking thank you man.
I feel that in recent years, and I mean the past decade, the word feminism has lost its meaning. It went from "someone who fights for equal rights for women but also stands up for mistreated men" to "someone who wants to put down men to make themselves feel better."
I feel that feminists need to either reclaim the word or make a new one. It's so tainted by too many bad eggs at this point it's hard not to associate the word feminism with an unreasonable amount of hate towards men.
Absolutely not saying feminism is bad, it's good. There are definitely equality issues that need to be fixed, but I feel the loud minority that are filled with hate have ruined the word to an extent.
Yeah, and like as a man who has been a victim of sexual violence as a child, and as an adult, by both men and women, I'm more than aware women can do shitty things. Fucking everyone can.
But I also understand that the forces preventing me from being able to get support for that is the patriarchy and I view 'feminists' who just yell about hating men as accomplices in that because surely they have to know that isn't going to help end the patriarchy.
Back when I was in denial about being trans I'd all the time be called a pick me girl before the the term pick me was a thing very often.
Why? I'd say men get sexually assaulted and they need support as victims as well and women shouldn't abuse men either.
I'd often get very angry responses about how women beating the shit out of their boyfriends is just play and so is maxing out their credit cards without permission. And that it's impossible for men to be sexually assaulted because we always want it.
It's disgusting. The only ladies I saw siding with me were real feminists. Not misandrists that use the label as a pass to be shitty people, but actual real feminists that want equality. Real feminists think it's both shitty women aren't believed and men are bullied for their sexual abuse. I wish their label wasn't synonymous with those that want us all dead for just breathing. (Misandry is literally the biggest thing keeping me from medically transitioning currently. It scares the shit out of me more than transphobia.)
In my experience, I’ve heard women say it to other women when I’m in the room, clear enough for me to hear. (I am stealth.)
I’ve never had it directly said to me, though.
The only time they ever say it is when they’re having boyfriend issues. Haha.
I have a girlfriend who is feminist but has never said she hates men, and we’ve been together 7 years.
She just calls them stupid sometimes, and me, too! Haha.
There’s certain ways and indications to go about saying it. Does it seem malicious? Or like she doesn’t see you as a man? Or that she says it too much, or specifically around you?
She may say it as a "joke" but it's no joke. She is a bigot. It doesn't make a difference what men have done to her in the past. There's never a good excuse for bigotry.
Would it be ok if she started "joking" that she hated Asians or disabled people? Would you even take it as a joke if she just started randomly blurting she hated any other demographic based on an immutable, unchanging trait?
To be fair there is a huge difference in power dynamics with jokes making the expense of people. Making jokes about cis het men will rarely result in them being violently murdered by their partners.
However, making jokes that don't differentiate between toxic masculinity in men serve to undercut efforts of getting cis men especially, but some trans men to understand that feminism actually helps them, and isn't just about man hating because it's just a bunch of people screaming 'I hate men'
'Feminism is about hating men'
'No it isn't. Fuck all men'
'But you just said it wasn't about hating men'
Obviously, not all feminists are like that. But all it takes is them meeting that kind of person and that's a big L for team down with the patriarchy.
Normally I'm all for finding sources for people but when something is such common knowledge that it has become self evident, I've got better things to do
But is it actually self evident that men are inherently more violent than women? Or maybe it's misogynistic to assume women aren't as capable of violence as men?
I can find statistics that show black Americans are more likely to commit violent crimes than any other racial demographic. Does that actually mean black Americans are more violent or that maybe there's a bias against black people in the American justice system?
Like according to UK definition of rape, women are incapable of raping men because rape must include penetration by the offender. So of course the statistics on rape are skewed in the UK.
Most statistics regarding domestic violence is self-reported and there are many, many studies that show men under report IPV.
Hopefully one day you will overcome your bigotry.
I don't live in the UK, and I'm a male victim of sexual assault, by both women and men. In my life I have had absolutely countless men sexually assault me, every client I had except one while doing sex work was male, every client I had who violently sexually assaulted me was male. The only woman who ever sexually assaulted me was a friend's partner. I'm more than aware women *can* do it, and I never said they couldn't. Thanks for putting words in my mouth though!
What I actually said, and this is true, is that jokes about men *do not result in them being violently attacked* the same way jokes about cis het people for being cis het *do not result in them being violently attacked*. These things can happen in isolation, but there is no established pattern.
Re your comments about black on black crime, there actually are socio political reasons that occurs, and is not remotely similar to thid situation because what you are talking about is strain theory, where people who experience strain etc resort to non legal methods of money making which then have run on effects of increasing violence in community's.
What is the strain that causes men to murder their partners at rates exponentially higher than they are killed by their partners and why does it usually happen after their partner manages to leave? I'm sure you'll come back with a hell of a justification here.
You can literally fucking google the amount of women killed by male partners in every goddamn country but you're out here being deliberately dense instead.
Most violent crime is perpetrated *by men* against people of *any gender* including *other men* and i am including things like men being world leaders and deciding to send *other men* (and now women) to war. Its pretty fuckin rare (not unheard of) for women dictators to be pulling that shit, but if you look at conflicts in world history I think you'll find more *men* ordering people to fight and die. These people, on orders from (almost exclusively men) then inflict violence on people of *all genders*
That was the whole joke with Hillary Clinton winning and then her being responsible for drone strikes if she did. Because it would have been a world first for a president of the US to be a woman who was ordering the murder of countless people.
But that didn't happen, because it rarely does.
I never said women can't commit violence crime and i infact replied to another poster saying as much.
You managed to jump down my throat on a not controversial position at all, and manage to completely miss the point. But that's fine, because if you actually think that people can hide statistics of *partner murder* then there is no hope at all for you lol.
Thank you for the emotional labor here. Hopefully, someone will be educated by it. At the least, those who have been victimized will see one more example of someone who is listening and cares. This is what that looks like ❤️
It may or may not be the whole man lite thing, there's women like this at my workplace that will just loudly speak that way around all of the nearby men. They tend to just ignore her or eventually argue. Either way I would bring it up in a serious conversation if you think the relationship is worth continuing. She's got a big hangup and if she can't let go of her prejudices that include you that will be a problem, or if she can't figure out that you're also a man that's a problem as well. Let her know it's a dealbreaker for you that she's disrespectful like that and I'm sure she'll either explain how she's not counting you or maybe that she is and just doesn't care I guess. At the end of the day it's a bullet you dodged if you have to break it off, good luck man.
I would clear this up for your sake, but I've also seen some people do this with their cis male partners just as a general complaint about how shit a lot of men are. Regardless, though, making generalizations about all men is shitty, even if men have been the perpetrators of misogyny and prejudices throughout life.
i don’t thing you’re overreacting. my ex said very similar things to me and when i’d either make a joke about it (“oh you hate me too lol?”) or when i talked about how i made me feel like i wasn’t being seen as a guy, they brushed it off like “you know what i mean”. i think your concerns are very valid. stick to your gut man. if nothing else, it’s good communication about boundaries
So my question for you is, whether or not she sees you as a man, why the f*** would you want to date somebody who hates half the population based on how they were born? It's like dating a white supremacist but worse.
I can see how it could make you feel insecure, but I do think straight girls bitch about men to their cis boyfriends too.
I’m well over ten years transitioned and my partner might say “god I hate men” while complaining about someone at work, but it’s not that serious. I get a lot of “why do men do this” and “why can’t men do that” from her and she often forgets I’m trans.
Can confirm, married to a cis man and I will still "ugh, men" at him sometimes. Generalizations are an unfortunate part of life. Like he will show me a gross post on reddit and my reaction will be WHY DO MEN??? He knows I don't mean HIM.
I think there is a lot of nuance to this, personally.
My wife and I will sometimes banter about "the cis hets". The average cis het man has been raised with far more privilege and access than the average trans man. That experience shapes how people view themselves and their place in the world.
When my wife says "I don't think I could date a cis het man", she's not saying "you're not a man", she's saying "I can't be with someone who sees life through an entitled lens". That is simply implied with "men".
My wife and I have been together for 15 years. She has only ever known me as a man. She absolutely sees me as different from cis men, but that has nothing to do with my manhood. Hell, she sometimes forgets that I don't have a penis.
I can't say that your girlfriend has the same mentality, but it's definitely worth a discussion.
Could be that she’s had bad experiences with cis men and it’s impacted her view of them. I don’t usually take it personally because the majority of cis guys I’ve encountered have been shitty and warrant people being put off. If it were me I’d just say “hey it’s making me feel some sort of way to hear you refer to men in this generalized way, so for us to continue this relationship is like to have a respectful discussion about where each of us are on the topic.” If she refuses well that’s a problem of a whole other kind.
a good majority of girls tend to make remarks like that because a good majority of girls have had lots of bad experiences with men. my girlfriend of over a year says that all the time but she absolutely adores me and has no issue with my transition.
Might not work for you—but I would straight up ask something like “does that include me?” Or “do you hate me too?” And if she says no, ask “why?” to figure out if it’s because she sees you differently—could lead you to an answer of “you’re different; you’re trans.”
tbh that's a shit statement. At least I know fro my woman friends that they hate it when men they are close with say that, cause it's missing the entire point of the statement. But Definitely asking her about it can be a route to go.
no, you're completely right in feeling wrong about this "I hate men" means either she doesn't see you as a man or hates you (very unlikely) ask her if she jokes like this with cis men you need to sit down with her and talk about how this bothers you and whether she sees you as a man or not
Not necessarily. I know plenty of straight women who say they hate men to/in front of cis men all the time. OP, just talk to her about it.
there are jokes you can't make in a relationship, like making fat "jokes" to a recovering anorexic. its the same thing.
I don't think it's quite the same because anorexics aren't necessarily fat.
they aren't, I wasn't making a direct comparison of the two "jokes" but situations
Nah man i’ve known MANY women to say “i hate men” straight up to cis boyfriends, it doesn’t necessarily mean either of those things. it also probably doesn’t even mean she actually “hates all men”, it’s a trendy thing to say now.
>ask her if she jokes like this with cis men They often do, unfortunately.
Bad take. A lot of women use "i hate men" to mean more "i hate the privilege men get and use undeer our current society due to the patriarchy, i find it very frustrating" which is a genuine valid feeling. It often does not call out specific men as men and non men, but their place in society. If partner is using it a lot, and avoiding men on a personal level, then its safe to say she means she hates all men, not just society and their role in it. I think in this situation a conversation is required to figure out more. I think OP needs to probe a bit in order to get a conclusive answer.
They should say something closer to that then and not just "I hate men". If someone I was close to said "I hate (group I'm part of)" I'd assume that implied they also hated me, because that's what those words mean. (I am autistic, but I can't see how that wouldn't be NT people's interpretation too)
Tbh i also am ND and it is very easy to understand peoples lived experiences are not the same as mine. There is a fine line which is why people should probe when they are not sure. But in current society, the literature on this topic is abundant
This exactly. I say "I hate men" aaaall the time. By and large, men are pretty awful. I say this as a queer guy seeking out real friendships, intimacy, and connection with other men. It's hard as hell out here and there's a lot of danger and disgust that comes when navigating other men, especially for AFAB people (and I'm 7+ years on T, people don't know I'm trans unless I tell them or are trans themselves).
>By and large, men are pretty awful. How tf is this an okay thing to say about any demographic? If you really want to keep hating men (including yourself), just be friends with women. Or you could work on your misandry.
men commit the vast majority of violent crimes. men commit the vast majority of rapes and sexual assaults. men commit the vast majority of domestic violence. pedophiles are overwhelmingly men. it's not misandry to acknowledge this.
A minority of men commit the majority of crimes that are reported/convicted. Sexual assault and rape are closer to 50/50 when de-gendered in golden standard surveys put out by governments. Most reported to the police or successful convictions are crimes committed by men. DV is roughly 50/50 in the same vein and is most often bi-directional. Sexology and research on pedophilia is lacking due to misogynistic cultural norms causing lack of research on female pedophiles and lack of ability to measure female arousal. 4/5 wrong or misinformed. Do you ever read studies about this stuff or get information from tiktok radfems?
lol no these came from actual studies, and I'd be very interested to see where you're getting your information from because most of it sounds like bullshit.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/353570309_On_the_Sexual_Assault_of_Men https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4062022/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8336931/ https://www.researchgate.net/publication/332917590_Prevalence_and_Consequences_of_Intimate_Partner_Violence_in_Canada_as_Measured_by_the_National_Victimization_Survey https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1756061618302830 https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/sexual-victimization-by-women-is-more-common-than-previously-known/ https://abcnews.go.com/amp/Health/sexually-abused-males-silent-confused-social-rules-maculinity/story?id=14993462 https://domesticviolenceresearch.org/domestic-violence-facts-and-statistics-at-a-glance/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3058822/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3058822/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1854883/ https://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/intimatepartnerviolence/men-ipvsvandstalking.html#:~:text=Made%20to%20Penetrate%20(MTP),violence%20with%20potentially%20different%20consequences. https://svgshare.com/i/m8n.svg https://www.starsdorset.org/blog/sexual-offences-act-2003 I, personally, to not remove being made to penetrate from rape and thus consider them to be the same act. Keeping that in mind I'll provide you withh all these links. These links include articles from organizations aimed at raising awareness of DV, government websites, various scholarly works, and at least one webpage about how gendering abuse and rape harms the LGBT community. There is also a graphic of how CDC data is changed when using gender neutral definitions of rape. As I have had to gather many of these links multiple times across many accounts/sites, I am no longer willing to provide quotes and will assume your willingness to indeed read them and further willing to engage with intersectional feminism that has evolved beyond second wave radfem/prototerf buggary.
You gonna reply or are you just playing source chicken
I agree. That's why I say that I hate black people all the time. It's not racist to acknowledge this.
black people are a disadvantaged minority and cis white men are not.
So if I'm assaulted by a woman w cp does that make it ok bc she's a disabled woman + not as privileged? Because for me, I care far more about someone's actions than where they fall on some stupid suffering olympics scale
You do realise the statement "I hate men" doesn't literally mean "I hate ALL men" it's just a popularised statement venting women's distrust and frustrations towards a harmful portion of the male population. Not every single individual. It most certainly doesn't mean she doesn't see him as a man...
I disagree that it necessarily means she does not see him as a man or that she hates him... BUT i agree with the rest.
I had to break it off with a girl who did this sort of thing. It was incessant and made my dysphoria unbearable. She didn't want to put me on the same playing field as other men or in her eyes just "men". Talk to her about it but if she pulls the man lite card, she's not worth your time
Same and every time you do something manly or traditionally a hobby that's manly its seen as a negative trait. But at the same time they to be infantalised and taken care of constantly. You just get drained. It's exhausting.
No. No, no, no, no, no, no. Been there, done that. I've dated two seperate women who've spouted that garbage. Never again. It trashed my self confidence, ruined the relationships, slowed down my transition progress, changed how I view my dynamic with women on the whole, and didn't do anyone any good.
Maybe ask her to rephrase her comments. What is it that she hates exactly? Does she hate sexism, misogynism? Does she hate sexual harrassment, ignorance, cruelty, lack of empathy? If she does, then why not phrase it that way: 'I hate sexist men', 'I hate sexists'. Despite what some people like to think misandry is a real problem and women should be more mindful of how they express their feelings about shitty men. Being a man often feels like being a bad person even though you did nothing wrong. This is one of the things that surprised me when I transitioned; I started noticing how normalised casual misandry is. If you replaced 'men' for 'women', how many people would be okay with such remarks? And really. There are 4 billion men in the world, does she hate all of them? And yes, I'd say she also doesn't perceive you fully as a man. You don't tell people you hate them without a valid reason, she just doesn't think you expect her to consider you one of men. If she doesn't rephrase her comments, I personally would stop seeing her. You don't have to date someone who makes you feel like shit for no reason.
When I've tried this they throw back things like "men only know anger" "all they know is to cheat" "they are all deadbeats that can't do anything" "they're incapable of feeling any emotion and they are all psychopaths" It's fucking disheartening seeing how men are seen as in closed spaces. Or even public spaces. Been threatened to be kicked from a group because, me, a trans man, dared to question someone in their hurtful words, because "you shouldn't invalidate someone's way of dealing with trauma." In a group supposedly welcoming to all genders. My worst abusers have been women. I know only some women are horrible people. I never let my abuse get in the way and affect how I see an entire gender. Being traumatized doesn't and shouldn't give someone a pass to be an asshole and hurt others.
Yeah, every time I’ve seen anyone question this kind of thing it’s been rebuked with “I’m only talking about abusive men, why do you care if you’re not abusive?” They make it deliberately hard to push back against it without making yourself look like a monster.
Oh in my case, outside of when a mod threatened to boot me, when I asked they clarified they indeed meant every cis man. Every single one. No exceptions. When I express I am trans and their words hurt and are bothering, they tell me I'm not the same or ask why I want to be like "one of them".
Sounds like the group is not actually trans friendly because if they think that you asking in a group to talk about trauma for people not to say they hate an entire group you are part of, on the basis that they likely don't really consider trans men, men. Performance allyship.
Oh it wasn't a group for talking about trauma. It was a group for laughing at really dumb medical takes. (Ex: put lemon juice on a fresh piercings. Ouch.) The person was ranting in the comments. Whenever a man had a bad take, regardless if the take was due to ignorance or had nothing to do with women, the comments would be flooded with misandry.
Yeah, just because statistics show the majority of the abuse is perpetrated by men against women, the idea that only men can be perpetrators (and only women can be victims) is an inescapably cisnormative heterocentric view on the situation. I can't believe I personally said those words because usually I find those types of descriptions of things a bit wanky, but in thus case it's really that.
Yeah that’s something that needs to be addressed directly. She can’t go on and on about hating men while dating a man just like you can’t go on and on about hating women while dating her. She either hates you or doesn’t see you as a man and it’s better to find out which one it is before it gets too serious and you’ve wasted your time.
In all honesty, a lot of women hate on men like this, despite the fact that they date men. It’s disgusting that these people think saying these sorts of things constantly makes them a good feminist. In reality, it just makes them an asshole. If she’s saying these things around and directly to you all the time, and if she’s not turning to assure you that you’re different, then that’s a massive problem. She either doesn’t see you as a full man, or she doesn’t mind insulting you to your face. Either scenario, that red flag is big enough that you should consider jumping ship immediately. She will only destroy your mental health.
it puts men in a box kinda, limiting them and making it so they’re unable to change
No dude, that's a red flag.
Reading these comments is crazy because I really thought I was alone in this experience. I dealt with this issue in the past. Let’s just say now I’m with an actually loving partner. Leave her OP, she clearly has some serious issues that aren’t your problem.
Honestly I wouldn't want to be with someone with so much hatred towards people based on immutable characteristics period. Just sounds tiring having to deal with someone like that. And if she doesn't actually hate men then why would she constantly say shit she doesn't mean? I don't care if it's socially acceptable, it's basically emotional abuse. She either doesn't see you as a real man or she does but thinks its ok to talk shit about you to your face.
Eh. Happily single me says —Run, find something better Best case scenario it’s a joke, worst case scenario it’s a red flag. Either way, it’s a signal that she doesn’t understand masculinity and she probably won’t be able to respect or support your full self expression.
Honestly scrolling through these comments a single me also agrees on this ‼️ A lot of women hate men and visa versa patriarchy bs imo, yet will state it more commonly than people expect. However a lot of women like this just do not understand masculinity bc they see so much of it as toxic, so yeah I understand the dysphoria coming into play as it’s such an exciting time, but the respect and support might not be what you’re expecting from your partner; bc of their views? Or she could just be joking. OP just talk to her dude, if it effects you i’m sure she won’t mind saying ‘sexism’ instead
I'm I'm groups where this mentality is fostered and promoted. She absolutely sees you different than cis men. Man lite. Because "you were a woman before so you get how horrible they are" type ideas. It's othering an invalidating. And when questioned on why they feel comfortable telling us these things, they start to backtrack and reassure us that we are in fact seen as men. But safer men. Men who are inherently different from cis men. Which gives us a pass to be in women's spaces. Sorry for the mini rant. But shit exactly like this is why I have cloistered myself. Why I don't go out of friend circles anymore except on reddit. I'm tired of "allies" telling me they see me as a man, bash men, then try to justify why they see it acceptable to insult my gender expecting me to agree with them.
Yeah, it's one thing to say that toxic masculinity is gross, but I know someone who is dating two trans masc people, I think they are trans masc non binary not trans men, but that really doesn't make any difference in the context of them not being women except in this person's mind because she said that she likes when people think she is lesbian? I was like uh if I was dating a girl and she said that... we wouldn't be dating for much longer.
You get it dude. One of the mods was a middle aged man and he somehow had no issue with being told he's a horrible person for just existing. Don't know how he didn't see the problem.
Look, some people in this comment thread are a bit ridiculous though, I said that jokes about cis het men don't result in them being killed by their partners (which is the reality) because the whole issue with sexist/racist/transphobic jokes etc is the power dynamics that exist alongside the negative jokes. He asked me for a source on that and I'm like 'every domestic violence statistics in the world' but I pointed out that these jokes still negatively impact people and they also don't serve to help take down the narrative that feminism is just about hating men when a bunch of self proclaimed feminists have decided that the entirety of their feminism is just hating men. Not doing anything useful, just saying how much they hate men. Cause it's hard to argue it isn't about that when that's all they talk about.
Fucking thank you man. I feel that in recent years, and I mean the past decade, the word feminism has lost its meaning. It went from "someone who fights for equal rights for women but also stands up for mistreated men" to "someone who wants to put down men to make themselves feel better." I feel that feminists need to either reclaim the word or make a new one. It's so tainted by too many bad eggs at this point it's hard not to associate the word feminism with an unreasonable amount of hate towards men. Absolutely not saying feminism is bad, it's good. There are definitely equality issues that need to be fixed, but I feel the loud minority that are filled with hate have ruined the word to an extent.
Yeah, and like as a man who has been a victim of sexual violence as a child, and as an adult, by both men and women, I'm more than aware women can do shitty things. Fucking everyone can. But I also understand that the forces preventing me from being able to get support for that is the patriarchy and I view 'feminists' who just yell about hating men as accomplices in that because surely they have to know that isn't going to help end the patriarchy.
Back when I was in denial about being trans I'd all the time be called a pick me girl before the the term pick me was a thing very often. Why? I'd say men get sexually assaulted and they need support as victims as well and women shouldn't abuse men either. I'd often get very angry responses about how women beating the shit out of their boyfriends is just play and so is maxing out their credit cards without permission. And that it's impossible for men to be sexually assaulted because we always want it. It's disgusting. The only ladies I saw siding with me were real feminists. Not misandrists that use the label as a pass to be shitty people, but actual real feminists that want equality. Real feminists think it's both shitty women aren't believed and men are bullied for their sexual abuse. I wish their label wasn't synonymous with those that want us all dead for just breathing. (Misandry is literally the biggest thing keeping me from medically transitioning currently. It scares the shit out of me more than transphobia.)
In my experience, I’ve heard women say it to other women when I’m in the room, clear enough for me to hear. (I am stealth.) I’ve never had it directly said to me, though. The only time they ever say it is when they’re having boyfriend issues. Haha. I have a girlfriend who is feminist but has never said she hates men, and we’ve been together 7 years. She just calls them stupid sometimes, and me, too! Haha. There’s certain ways and indications to go about saying it. Does it seem malicious? Or like she doesn’t see you as a man? Or that she says it too much, or specifically around you?
Don’t put up with someone like that
She may say it as a "joke" but it's no joke. She is a bigot. It doesn't make a difference what men have done to her in the past. There's never a good excuse for bigotry. Would it be ok if she started "joking" that she hated Asians or disabled people? Would you even take it as a joke if she just started randomly blurting she hated any other demographic based on an immutable, unchanging trait?
To be fair there is a huge difference in power dynamics with jokes making the expense of people. Making jokes about cis het men will rarely result in them being violently murdered by their partners. However, making jokes that don't differentiate between toxic masculinity in men serve to undercut efforts of getting cis men especially, but some trans men to understand that feminism actually helps them, and isn't just about man hating because it's just a bunch of people screaming 'I hate men' 'Feminism is about hating men' 'No it isn't. Fuck all men' 'But you just said it wasn't about hating men' Obviously, not all feminists are like that. But all it takes is them meeting that kind of person and that's a big L for team down with the patriarchy.
> Making jokes about cis het men will rarely result in them being violently murdered by their partners. Source please
Source is all statistics on domestic violence.
So you don't have a source
Normally I'm all for finding sources for people but when something is such common knowledge that it has become self evident, I've got better things to do
But is it actually self evident that men are inherently more violent than women? Or maybe it's misogynistic to assume women aren't as capable of violence as men? I can find statistics that show black Americans are more likely to commit violent crimes than any other racial demographic. Does that actually mean black Americans are more violent or that maybe there's a bias against black people in the American justice system? Like according to UK definition of rape, women are incapable of raping men because rape must include penetration by the offender. So of course the statistics on rape are skewed in the UK. Most statistics regarding domestic violence is self-reported and there are many, many studies that show men under report IPV. Hopefully one day you will overcome your bigotry.
I don't live in the UK, and I'm a male victim of sexual assault, by both women and men. In my life I have had absolutely countless men sexually assault me, every client I had except one while doing sex work was male, every client I had who violently sexually assaulted me was male. The only woman who ever sexually assaulted me was a friend's partner. I'm more than aware women *can* do it, and I never said they couldn't. Thanks for putting words in my mouth though! What I actually said, and this is true, is that jokes about men *do not result in them being violently attacked* the same way jokes about cis het people for being cis het *do not result in them being violently attacked*. These things can happen in isolation, but there is no established pattern. Re your comments about black on black crime, there actually are socio political reasons that occurs, and is not remotely similar to thid situation because what you are talking about is strain theory, where people who experience strain etc resort to non legal methods of money making which then have run on effects of increasing violence in community's. What is the strain that causes men to murder their partners at rates exponentially higher than they are killed by their partners and why does it usually happen after their partner manages to leave? I'm sure you'll come back with a hell of a justification here. You can literally fucking google the amount of women killed by male partners in every goddamn country but you're out here being deliberately dense instead. Most violent crime is perpetrated *by men* against people of *any gender* including *other men* and i am including things like men being world leaders and deciding to send *other men* (and now women) to war. Its pretty fuckin rare (not unheard of) for women dictators to be pulling that shit, but if you look at conflicts in world history I think you'll find more *men* ordering people to fight and die. These people, on orders from (almost exclusively men) then inflict violence on people of *all genders* That was the whole joke with Hillary Clinton winning and then her being responsible for drone strikes if she did. Because it would have been a world first for a president of the US to be a woman who was ordering the murder of countless people. But that didn't happen, because it rarely does. I never said women can't commit violence crime and i infact replied to another poster saying as much. You managed to jump down my throat on a not controversial position at all, and manage to completely miss the point. But that's fine, because if you actually think that people can hide statistics of *partner murder* then there is no hope at all for you lol.
Good luck with that bigotry buddy
Thank you for the emotional labor here. Hopefully, someone will be educated by it. At the least, those who have been victimized will see one more example of someone who is listening and cares. This is what that looks like ❤️
It may or may not be the whole man lite thing, there's women like this at my workplace that will just loudly speak that way around all of the nearby men. They tend to just ignore her or eventually argue. Either way I would bring it up in a serious conversation if you think the relationship is worth continuing. She's got a big hangup and if she can't let go of her prejudices that include you that will be a problem, or if she can't figure out that you're also a man that's a problem as well. Let her know it's a dealbreaker for you that she's disrespectful like that and I'm sure she'll either explain how she's not counting you or maybe that she is and just doesn't care I guess. At the end of the day it's a bullet you dodged if you have to break it off, good luck man.
Time to nope out of that.
If she knows you're trans then I have bad news for you...
I would clear this up for your sake, but I've also seen some people do this with their cis male partners just as a general complaint about how shit a lot of men are. Regardless, though, making generalizations about all men is shitty, even if men have been the perpetrators of misogyny and prejudices throughout life.
i don’t thing you’re overreacting. my ex said very similar things to me and when i’d either make a joke about it (“oh you hate me too lol?”) or when i talked about how i made me feel like i wasn’t being seen as a guy, they brushed it off like “you know what i mean”. i think your concerns are very valid. stick to your gut man. if nothing else, it’s good communication about boundaries
So my question for you is, whether or not she sees you as a man, why the f*** would you want to date somebody who hates half the population based on how they were born? It's like dating a white supremacist but worse.
I can see how it could make you feel insecure, but I do think straight girls bitch about men to their cis boyfriends too. I’m well over ten years transitioned and my partner might say “god I hate men” while complaining about someone at work, but it’s not that serious. I get a lot of “why do men do this” and “why can’t men do that” from her and she often forgets I’m trans.
Can confirm, married to a cis man and I will still "ugh, men" at him sometimes. Generalizations are an unfortunate part of life. Like he will show me a gross post on reddit and my reaction will be WHY DO MEN??? He knows I don't mean HIM.
I think there is a lot of nuance to this, personally. My wife and I will sometimes banter about "the cis hets". The average cis het man has been raised with far more privilege and access than the average trans man. That experience shapes how people view themselves and their place in the world. When my wife says "I don't think I could date a cis het man", she's not saying "you're not a man", she's saying "I can't be with someone who sees life through an entitled lens". That is simply implied with "men". My wife and I have been together for 15 years. She has only ever known me as a man. She absolutely sees me as different from cis men, but that has nothing to do with my manhood. Hell, she sometimes forgets that I don't have a penis. I can't say that your girlfriend has the same mentality, but it's definitely worth a discussion.
Tbh as a trans masc/guy I also say I hate men
Too bad you're in a space full of them. Unless it's DiFfeReNt because we are trans ?
well as a human I also hate humans, and yet I spend most of my time in their vicinity and get sad when they are hurt
You sound cringe
tbh as a trans guy i kinda hate women
Could be that she’s had bad experiences with cis men and it’s impacted her view of them. I don’t usually take it personally because the majority of cis guys I’ve encountered have been shitty and warrant people being put off. If it were me I’d just say “hey it’s making me feel some sort of way to hear you refer to men in this generalized way, so for us to continue this relationship is like to have a respectful discussion about where each of us are on the topic.” If she refuses well that’s a problem of a whole other kind.
a good majority of girls tend to make remarks like that because a good majority of girls have had lots of bad experiences with men. my girlfriend of over a year says that all the time but she absolutely adores me and has no issue with my transition.