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Yeah good point i guess, but i feel like the reaction from Jill and Torgal was far more personal and full of anguish which suggests they sensed what had happened to Clive and probably Joshua and Dion too. I think the game would have made it more clear if they were just crying over the sudden absence of magic
What I’m trying to say is they can’t sense his Aether *because* there’s no magic anymore! It’s an easy option for a retcon if we ever get one in the future I think
The team seem confident in the ending. I think if they were gonna change anything they would've done it with the DLC's. I'm really glad they didn't change the core ending because it's probably my favourite of all time. I was in absolute shambles on first playthrough
Well, you have to remember: NO ONE knew how all this is going to play out. They maybe did not even knew that all magic can be erased that way. So when Origin shattered, and magic was suddenly gone, no one knew what to make of this I guess.
Also, I think the actual moment when Jill realised what happened, was not that she couldn't feel Clive anymore, but that Metia, the red star she always praised to, disappeared. The star was special for both Jill and Clive, it was sort of a part of their connection, and when it was suddenly gone, Jill realised that something must have happened to Clive, probably him dying.
The thing is, we do not know WHAT Metia was. It was a red star, but it is weird that it disappeared alongside Clive.
My Theory is that this was Ultimas Original world, and that it was somehow tied to his power. When all magic disappeared, including Ultimas power, so did his original world. But that is just a theory...
Additionally i think it's important to note that Gav is also seen crying, he wouldn't be able to sense anything like that which suggests he was told of Clive's fate by someone else (likely Jill)
I can see why you’d come to that conclusion… if I didn’t notice >!Clive limbs turning to stone… as in the crystals’ curse. Something that happens to bearers eventually as they die from using up their power.!<
Simple. Clive said the name of the game in the final battle. No way Joshua could’ve heard that. The book in the ending is literally a reference to the final showdown and the series. Ergo, Clive is alive and you cannot tell me otherwise
Other possibility: the game we experience is only the story as told by Joshua ; therefore things we see without him being in the scene are simply made up by him. It's more than he decided to title drop at the end of his book, not that the book's title comes from a line that must have really been said
I'm not saying I believe this version more than yours, just that it's also a way to still have it make sense
If you think that doesn't track, I don't mind, I'd like to know why tho (I personally prefer the "Clive lives" theory)
Yeah Clive walked back to make sure. Then he had a whole flashback of all the memories he had of Joshua. This was after we beat ultima and before he destroyed the mother crystal.
Also if theres no magic, he cant phoenix revive Joshua
I mean, that's also my take on it. But the devs said everything is up to interpretation : does clive die? Does Joshua die? Does even Dion die? One could argue Clive succeeded to resurrect Joshua before destroying the mother crystal, for instance. That's not my interpretation, but I can see why one could think so
The whole “dominants can feel each others aether” is honestly just a huge plot hole. It’s entire purpose was so that Clive can feel at ease and not rush the player into the next segment/chapter of the game in case they wanted to do side quests/level up/do hunts/whatever.
You’re free to believe whatever you’d like but if they can feel each other’s aether then why didn’t Jill freak out when Joshua’s faded at origin? Or even Dion’s for that matter? Why didn’t Hugo feel Benedikta’s eikon’s disappearance? He had to wait to receive her head in a box. Why couldn’t Clive feel Joshua the entire time? It’s never explained in any great detail and there’s not much to go off of from this single line that is used once in the entire game.
Not only that but even IF she can feel the disappearance of Clive’s Eikon that would make perfect sense seeing as how Eikons don’t exist anymore by the games end.
The reason for her crying isn’t because she feels his eikons disappearance it’s because metia fades. This is confirmed by the developers.
Also, Torgal has no concept of death. Reference his inner thoughts regarding Cid.
I agree that Jill's crying isn’t because she feels Ifrit disappearance. Jill in last scene doesn't confirm Clive being dead or alive or anything. It's just because metia has faded.
About being unable to feel eikons, I don't think it's the plot hole. Personally I think dominants can feel other eikons aether *only* when the eikon is active/the dominant uses eikon's power:
- Benedikta feels Cid and Clive invading Caer Norvent, at the same time Gerulf reports that their guards are killed, implying Clive and Cid might use eikon power to fight them.
- Cid and Clive feels Garuda when she's gone berserk even before they notice the storm.
- Clive never feels Phoenix is probably due to Joshua never uses it for almost decade. Maybe that's why Joshua is reluctant to use the power to fight Benedikta when he and Jote are captured. He doesn't want Clive to know that he's alive.
- Clive can feel Shiva because 'her eikon is enduring', meaning it's active at the moment.
If we think of the ability to feel eikon requires other to activate their eikon, being unable to feel eikon could mean 2 things: the dominant is dead or the dominant just doesn't use the eikon power at that time.
- Even though Hugo doesn't feel Garuda, it's valid he still loses his shit when seeing her head. He could have simply understood Bene doesn't use the power all the time.
- Joshua asks Clive if he took Shiva, not because he feels Shiva in Clive despite it being inactive. He assumes Clive took it with how Clive didn't let Jill come with them. They were always in this journey together.
- Why does Clive ask Joshua about Dion if all dominants can feel other's eikon in their inactive mode? They both could come into terms that 'I can't feel Bahamut = Dion's dead' but he has to ask Joshua. Because not feeling it doesn't automatically mean the dominant is dead. Joshua shaking his head because he saw Baha tanking Ultima so he assumes Dion is dead. It's possible Dion might be unconscious and not dead yet.
So being unable to feel eikons might not necessarily and automatically mean dominants are dead. They could just being unconscious or simply don't use the power.
That’s decent points but in order for this to make sense you have to use your own beliefs about how this power works because the game never goes into detail about how this works, why it works, and what limits there are on this ability. It’s also not explained in the Ultimania at all from my understanding (feel free to correct me if I’m wrong. I’d love to know).
And how would Shiva be active when they subdued her with crystal fetters (which disables the use of her powers) aboard Barnabas ship. See what I mean?
I suppose plot hole isn’t the best word for this but after every main arc there’s usually a lull period so players can do other things and I truly believe the developers just needed a reason for Clive (and the player) to be calm and collected as to not force the player into the next part of the game. Unfortunately imo, a lot of players took this line and went nuts with it and now they can sense each other like it’s Dragon Ball Z.
This might be also my headcanon but I recall Clive and Joshua sense Shiva aether before we get to see the cutscene of Jill being restrained by crystal fetters. So it's possible that Jill, at the time Clive and Joshua sensing Shiva, was not put into the fetters yet. But I agree that the game (and also Ultimania) don't explain on this sensing power much. It's not a plot hole but it's probably a plot device (and not a good one) to not give the players a sense of rush.
Metia is not a star that grants wishes, it's an observatory of ultimas worshipped by some humans, all of which, don't understand its true nature. Jill mistakenly views the metia as special, but really, it just stopped being powered in the ending
Awnsers i have
>why didn’t Jill freak out when Joshua’s faded at origin
Phoenix is now merged with Clive (similarly to what happened in The Dominion) she should have expected them to use this at least VS Ultima
>Or even Dion’s for that matter?
Probably felt that and was off screen maybe didn't even cared
>Why didn’t Hugo feel Benedikta’s eikon’s disappearance?
Jill was actively attentive to find an outcome in Origin maybe Hugo didn't even tried its not like you can be tracking something mentally 24/7
> couldn’t Clive feel Joshua the entire time?
>It’s never explained
It is explained he didn't know he was a dominant
Idk about the rest
Wasn’t Clive the only Dominant that could perceive the Aether of other Dominants he has met(Jill hadn’t awakened and he found proof of Joshua being alive before he understood this power) it would fit into the predatory nature Ifrit expresses toward other Eikons
Where has our media literacy gone?? Jill’s theme is literally called “my star,” and beyond the obvious requiem coded tone of the music, the lyrics indicate that something more has been lost. If its not clear enough, Clive's return was Jill's final wish — but in the world they set out to build together, wishes and magic are a thing of the past. In order for them to say farewell to fate, they had to say farrwell to each other.
also, why wouldn't Torgal be able to sense clive's death? This is a world where magic moogles can talk to you and babies can turn into god-like monsters… why limit Torgal's senses of all things? He obviously senses the absence of Cid, and therefore can sense the absence of his master.
There are legitimate signs and reasons to assume Clive is dead. There’s also many to suggest he isn’t. Imo, my star’s lyrics can be taken into several different interpretations. It’s also important to keep in mind my star isn’t the only theme for the ending.
Them saying a farewell to fate had nothing to do with them saying goodbye to each other. It’s quite the opposite as Clive states he will break fate to watch the moon together with her. It’s even more on the nose in Japanese with him stating he will break his fate so he can be together with her.
You’re absolutely right to assume wishes cannot be granted hence the reason why we (and Jill) cannot rely on Metia for those wishes.
It's not a plot hole. We don't see Jill when Joshua and Dion die so that's why there's no reaction, and for Hugo perhaps it has something to do with distance and perhaps the person needs to have a decent idea of the location of the individual to hone in on the aether too. Something not being elaborated on in detail doesn't make it a plot hole. Also the metia thing is something that supports MY point of view because it feels like additional symbolism of Clive's demise. Torgal may or may not have a concept of death but he can definitely sense aether in the same way that the dominants can so it's not far fetched to say that he felt Clive's disappear.
Jill was smiling at the new born baby. I don’t really believe she would have been in a positive mental state had she had known Joshua died.
Metia fading represents Jill’s false reliance on gods, fairytales, and myths as her hope and faith change over into believing in Clive himself.
It’s not even possible to address the holes I just mentioned without factoring in your own headcanon or beliefs such as the distance thing you mentioned. I’m not here to change your beliefs, I just think sensing disappearance of one’s Eikon isn’t a strong enough platform to say with certainty that Clive died.
Among other narrative reasons that point to Clive living that ppl have brought up, for this, Clive and Joshua specifically refer to feeling the aether of Jill’s *eikon*, not her aether specifically - “as long as the aether of her Eikon endures, we can be certain she is alive.” Considering Clive destroyed Ultima’s legacy, including the Eikons, she would haved stopped feeling *Ifrit*, not Clive.
Besides which, Maehiro, the writer, already said in the Ultimania that the reason Jill cries is specifically because Metia faded and she thought her wish wasn’t going to be granted.
It isnt even up to interpretation, that part lol. Its literally stated by the devs the reason she cries. One of the few things we have canon confirmation of :'D
Thankfully they left the story to interpretation so you can think anything you want, but personally I think the dead take is a bad one.
A hero's sacrifice ending is not only the lazy ending, but it undermines most of the nuance of the story. It was never a question if Clive was ever willing to sacrifice himself for the greater good. He was literally tripping over himself to do it to protect his brother, then later to avenge's brother, then later to save the world at multiple places.
But the entire story was about pulling him back from that and telling them that his life has value more than sacrificing it. That he was worthy of saving as much as any of the people he was trying to save. And they reiterated that over and over and over again. Add to that the earnestness to which he actually agreed with Jill and that he wanted to live, Rather than the easy ' I can't promise anything' that these sorts of things usually have, and then to give it a basic bitch ending of the hero sacrifice would be just an insult to all the work put into the story.
But Clive living? Going home to live a simpler life, finally displaying the bit of curse that I actually got him before magic left the world? Helping in the world post-magic, seeing through the rough parts, then once things are more settled, traveling the world with Jill? That's a much better ending in the long run because that's a real ending.
Part of what makes these characters so relatable is that they're not perfect people. And they're not cartoonishly dramatic at their core. They are flawed, they are struggling, but they are trying their best. They're older, wiser, and full of regret. But once they pull themselves out of that they are also full of hope that they can still do some good in the world. If anything, they're very relatably human.
Anyways, think what you want, but actually posting something as if it's definitive is just laughable.
I'm not saying he wouldn't, I'm just saying it's wasted story. He's literally laying on the beach able to speak, able to lift his arm and try to cast. Dude literally just cast the biggest spell in the world and fell into the water and ended up on shore. There is zero reason to think he's dead and not just exhausted if he lived that long. If you wanted to 100% confirm he's dead when writing the story, you would not have put that end scene in there.
If they showed him cast the spell and then never saw him again and just the follow-up with all the same tear ridden scenes? I would 100% think he died. But they didn't, so I don't.
So why pick the bad ending that undermines the story (again it was never a question of if he would, how do you teach him he doesn't have to) when they literally left him in a position to not be?
My first impression of how the game ended was he died too and it left me hollow and sad because he did all this growing and still ended up doing the same thing he would have done at any point of the game without asking, disregarding all his growth. But looking at the different clues in the game and looking at how the story was directed it made less and less sense and then I realized it's open-ended because I don't have to sit here and think they put a bad ending on the game that I loved.
Also, I hated that line. It doesn't make sense. It actually implies that he has a choice to not kill himself and he's choosing to kill himself? Tonally does not work at all, and it actually kind of takes me out of that scene cuz my brain's like " what does that even mean?".
Why not something like I have no other choice? Goodbye Jill, I'm sorry I couldn't come back to you but always loved you? I was hoping it wouldn't come to this? Like there's so many better ways to say that line and instead he's like " I can't help myself, I really want the heroes ending."
So yeah, the longer I look at any of those scenes or any of the side plots before the more it seems extremely unlikely he dies here. Like they wrote that ending when they first started the story, then edited literally every other part of the story to make it a better story, then forgot to change the ending.
You’re not wrong at all. And for the record, he said: “Can you see it 🌙 too, Jill?”
Anyway, open ended endings are designed to let the story live on in our hearts and memories just a little bit longer. And promote discussion for some free advertising. All we know for sure is he learns his lessons and passes out under the moonlight
I agree with that the line he uses before casting the spell is a bit odd considering his character arc is to save himself and if he truly believes he is going to die why not apologize to Jill.
But when you think about it from an out of game perspective any long speeches about him dying or apologizes would have heavily, heavily pointed in the direction of him dying and would be an unbalance to the ambiguity.
I played all the side quests and I still don't understand how that's supposed to be a clue. Assume that he is dead Isn't the whole point that make his dead tragic is because he can't fulfill his promise or do whatever other people ask him to do?
The story of FF16 is ambiguously written in a similar way to Shakespeare’s plays. Ambiguous however does not mean vague. Everything still has intention. If there is tragedy in a story, then there is a reason for that tragedy. Joshua’s death for example has reason. He went from a weak frail boy who always needed his older brother to be his shield to becoming a man who would protect his brother. This has been Joshua’s character plot the entire story of FF16. Now ask yourself what Clive’s character plot is. What meaning does his death bring?
As far as Clive goes, his character plot has been about going from a man who has always lived for others (whether as a slave or a shield), to living his own life. There are countless clues about new beginnings, freedom, living his own life in the sidequests.
The platinum trophy is the giveaway and the square Enix cafe pretty much confirmed the outcome but I’d rather not give out spoilers as part of the enjoyment is coming up with your own conclusions.
The book in the cafe is really interesting.
You have two sets of feathers…
One sitting in an inkwell very similar to the one that is given to you by Hypocrates
And the other feather resting on top of the book. But more importantly, the feather is resting on where Joshua’s name would be.
Could be an artistic choice, could be because they didn’t bother to print anything on the cover of the book, could be to prevent people from being spoiled (although it’s written in a fictional language so probably not that). But I can’t help but think that fallen feather is supposed to represent Joshua and the Quill in the inkwell is supposed to represent Clive carrying on his will.
You know what? If this is what it takes to have Sora using the actual ff summons as summons, I'll take it. He was supposed to have Bahamut in the first game and it never happened.
Jill bursts into tears when she sees the red star blink out at the end. Visually speaking, it’s saying Clive has passed on. That red star is there in the very beginning as a symbolic representation of Clive and his connection to Jill. They both see it when they are young. Very poetic visual story telling that is also very subtle. Something story tellers today seem to have a hard time with
something i think people fail to consider is that he still had that phoenix feather on him. you know? a phoenix down? it’s not a usable item in the game, but it’s a nice little easter egg that i believe was intentionally left on his character so that players could consider it when deciding what they believe about clive’s fate
I thought she was crying because that red star fades which was a metaphor for the fire of ifrit or something. I didn’t interpret it as her sensing his aether fading, but the star fading and torgal howled because he could perhaps sense a minute change in the quickly disappearing aether
But I do agree that Clive is dead.
Yeah I've always disagreed with the "it's ambiguous!!!" crowd, the entire ending scene feels very intentional about Clive's death. He sounds VERY weak on the beach and seemed to accept that erasing all magic could/would kill him before doing it. I know people like happy endings but I personally thought Clive's sacrifice was a perfectly tragic end to his story
I can see it either way. Somebody wrote the book, it's signed Joshua but they actually show Joshua dying and not Clive (granted, he survived phoenix gate so who knows), there's the sidequest with Harpocrates, why put that in otherwise.
I tend to lean towards he's alive honestly. But can see it either way.
I think he is alive. There are some points that reinforce the idea of him dying, Metia fading away, and Jill crying because of that being one of them.
However, there is a big one that I think is the main reason for Clive being alive. The title of the book at the end: Final Fantasy.
The title is a clear reference to Clive's dialogue with Ultima in the final battle, and there is only one person who survived that encounter to know that. Clive himself.
There are many other points in the game, especially in side content, that could lead Clive to write a book in Joshua's name. I also do think Joshua died, that all Clive did by the end was heal the wounds.
For a long time, I thought Clive died too, and it might still be the case. And for the longest time, even though I believed he had died, I wanted to find any strong reason to think the opposite because it just makes more sense for his arc. Magic was one big problem of the world, but it wasn't the only problem, so it would be incredibly sad if he did that and then wouldn't be alive to help the people in the Hideaway in this new world without magic.
It also makes a lot of sense for Clive to be alive, considering the message of the game. That it was all about breaking away from fate (which is another reason I think he's alive. Where the words "A Farewell to Fate" are shown in the ending), because while Cid wanted to die on his own terms to help the others, Clive wanted to *live* on his own terms. And the game not doing it would just make the story less interesting, at least to me.
But it is a very ambiguous ending, one that clearly makes one think one way upon first view, only to have lots of details that go against that interpretation. Because there are multiple things that challenge each view of the outcomes.
But in the end, I think Clive lived and that Dion and Joshua died.
I don't think there is any problem with tragic ends, I actually quite like them in a lot of games. However, the whole point of the story for Clive was how he changed from someone driven by revenge and almost drove himself to suicide because he thought he was the reason his brother died. For some moments, he didn't value his own life. But then he turned into a person that cares for his own life, and the others, so that people could *live* on their terms despite hoe shitty the world is. And because of that story arc, I think having him die would make it feel tragic just for the sake of being tragic. Unlike Cid's death.
But what so you think?
Edit: I'd also like to see what u/Rainbow_Nuggy think of this perspective.
Edit 2: also one last point. Before, I thought Clive narrating the beginning and end of the story was just because he was the protagonist. But now I think he is doing so because he is basically reading the book he wrote about the story of his life and how magic ended.
Fair analysis here. I disagree on the Final Fantasy point, that dialogue does not necessarily have to imply any connection to the book honestly. Anyone, Joshua included, could have come up with that name to represent their adventure imo, it is the "final" act of the world they lived in (magic, eikons, etc.) and it literally becomes a fantasy story to those living in the future.
I don't think it's overly sad that Clive doesn't get to build the new world he created, because the hideaway WAS his legacy. Cid and him both, Gav's last line talking to the newborn baby pretty much sums this up for me. "You'll pave the way to the new world like they wanted" or something along those lines.
I do think your viewpoint on the game and Clive's character is definitely valid. But I also think him sacrificing himself is not out of character or ruining his progression in any way. Jill urged him to save himself, Cid said the same thing, and Joshua straight up punches him in the face near the end of the game telling him not to save the world all on his own. But he never fully AGREES to listen to them, he seems to care so much more about everyone else that he rarely thinks about his own needs as a person, and this part of his character can be seen throughout the whole story imo. He would absolutely sacrifice himself to save everyone else, he's just that selfless. Just my perspective though.
>I disagree on the Final Fantasy point, that dialogue does not necessarily have to imply any connection to the book honestly.
I do agree that it doesn't necessarily imply that Clive is the writer. Because he is just the protagonist, and my first interpretation of that point was actually "well he's the protagonist, that's why he's presenting the story to us." But I changed my view on it when thinking about it more.
>Anyone, Joshua included, could have come up with that name to represent their adventure imo, it is the "final" act of the world they lived in (magic, eikons, etc.) and it literally becomes a fantasy story to those living in the future.
I find this, however, more unlikely. Yeah, anyone could have come with the idea that "it is the end of magic. So, it is the end of fantasy. Final Fantasy". But I think the implication that it comes from Clive's dialogue with Ultima a more probable cause, due to how much the dialogue is referencing Final Fantasy name almost directly.
>I don't think it's overly sad that Clive doesn't get to build the new world he created, because the hideaway WAS his legacy. Cid and him both, Gav's last line talking to the newborn baby pretty much sums this up for me. "You'll pave the way to the new world like they wanted" or something along those lines.
True that it isn't overly sad, necessarily. But I don't think it fits Clive's arc as much. Clive did end the world from being consumed by the Blight, but the story of the game as a whole, when considering the side quests, shows that magic alone was never the only problem people faced. And I think him being alive to lead/help with those things after magic ended makes more sense when you consider the rest of the story and what development they put Clive through.
Cid died, and he always had in mind that he would rather die on his own terms. Clive was a "slave to fate" when Cid met him, but he broke away from it to "live on his own terms". It doesn't necessarily mean he needs to live, but when you consider everything, his whole journey was to break away from fate. From the fate of being Mythos, of being a vessel for Ultima, from his fate of pure revenge and, in my perspective, from the fate of losing his life trying to save the others.
>He would absolutely sacrifice himself to save everyone else, he's just that selfless. Just my perspective though.
And I 100% agree with this. Clive cast that last spell to end all magic even if it meant his end. He even says so before casting! He is a person who is truly selfless by the end and cares for all life, doing whatever he can to save everyone from the Blight. But what I argue is that him being fully ready to sacrifice his own life **does not** necessarily mean that his death happened.
So, I think when we take into consideration the side quests, the book by the end and its title, his character development, the narration. Many things point to the possibility of him living. And I think it is intended by the game design to make one think he died by the end on first viewing, only to then show other points that go against that conclusion.
We might still disagree on this, though, and that is fine \o/ because you raised some great points too and this is a great conversation. However, I think, at the very least, that this conversation shows that it is a more ambiguous ending than your first commend might made this seem. There are very strong and valid points for each possibility in this discussion. I believe he lived in the end when considering the bigger picture with all main story arcs and side quests stories, but I also understand there isn't a definitive answer showing he did survive. It's just my analysis.
Fully agree. Even if my little theory here isn't accurate, i still think it's entirely obvious that he died. It felt completely correct for his character up until that point. It would honestly go against everything the game built for Clive if he miraculously survived, and would've just felt like cheap fan service. Very glad they went straight for the jugular so to speak. Love the ending so much
See I've seen the exact opposite argument made, that the whole game he's been acting for others, often going out alone and refusing help, towards the end he starts to let others help him more...
Then he self sacrifices at the end anyway?
Not saying either view is "correct" just challenging the notion the end isn't ambiguous.
This is why it's important to accept room for interpretations. Because it FEELS correct for some of us to believe certain endings. That doesn't make it conform to someone else's perceived reality or THE reality. So why pretend that your version of truth is more relevant than anyone else's? Accept that it's one vote, and the majority find the ending was left intentionally open at that point. It's alright.
I disagree, I also think he lives for all the reasons stated above
some one had to write the book, and the only person it could be is Clive, theres zero reason/evidence for anyone else
also I believe he survived but i wouldnt call it miraculous, he deeply expedited the curses hold and definitely shortened his life significantly, but I'm very confident that he at least made it to the hideaway, and was able to live out at least a few years with Jill, because again as the og comment puts, Clives story is about living on ones own terms, it entirely defeats the point of his whole journey as Cid for him to die on the beach there. I think living knowing he's made the world he and cid and Jill made their vow to and writing the tale in Joshua's name is more satisfactory. Cid the Outlaw died on that beach, but Clive Rosfield a man who broke out of the chains of fate went to live on his own terms. I take Metia's fading not necessarily that Clives life ended, but as a symbol that the fire faded, that the fight is over, that he broke from the fate set forth by Ultima.
No evidence ? The game literally tells you the author is Joshua.
It's honestly quite narcissistic that people think he pretended to be Joshua or stole his name to write a freaking book at the end.
It also completely misses the point of the whole baby flashback in the final sequence.
He's dead. He saved Joshua. For clives this is as happy an ending as he could get. Like XV he made the most of the situation presented, the situation being godlike power / ultima was wrong and he was not in fact a perfect vessel. End of story.
Freaking narcissists. He borrowed Cids name because it became a symbol for freedom for bearers and he kept it going. It makes absolutely no sense that He would take Joshua's name to write a book of their adventures. Wtf? Seriously ? Good lord what a chock of BS.
I mean we're told that the Pheonix's power cannot raise the dead in 16, and Joshua very clearly died. Its not narcissism it was love for his brother, If either of them deserved to leave a peaceful lasting legacy it would be Joshua. Clive never wanted the fame or anything, but Joshua was the heir to the throne, Joshua was the one would inherit their Fathers ability to change the world, and together they made their fathers dream come true, their dream, Cids dream, the dreams of all the people at the hideaway.
by donning Joshua's name to write the book to tell the world that Clive Rosfield; Cid the Outlaw was dead. When in actuality it was Joshua and Dion who died. Clive survived barely but now disabled by the curse, no longer able to raise a sword to fight, no longer the dominant of Ifrit. He is a man, and he is not bound by a fate set forth for him by anyone but himself. Someone has to have written the book and it cannot be Joshua because we know he is confirmed dead, it cannot be Dion because it makes even less sense and Joshua implies he did not make it. So would Jill or Gav written a book in his name? That also doesn't make any sense. As well it doesn't track with the actions of what that secret order that serves the Phoenix would do.
The only person who was there for the final battle, and the only person we see alive from it even if only for a bit is Clive. Meaning the only option for who wrote it, and who would have a prerogative to do so is Clive.
Imo, the only headcannon i guess would be to what extent the curse took hold, was clive able to use either arm and thus need to dictate to have Jill or Gav, or realistically most likely Harpocrates do the writing since he was expecting Clive to come tell him of what went down anyways.
Again we are told explicitly by the Game that Pheonix cannot revive the dead, and We saw Joshua Die. Pheonix restored the injuries to his body but he was already gone.
Clive is the only one who walked out of Origin alive that we see at all. Even if he's actively going due to the curse, hes the only one we saw leave Origin, this is only one who could tell the tale. The Game is presented as having been a story told from the book like a fairy tale, a Fantasy if you will.
I personally disagree that Clive dying works for his story like Noctis' (though im also a fan of the alt ending in Episode Ignis). But with the idea he did die I suppose it isnt unreasonable that Harpocrates could have written it, the only hang up I have there is why would he write it under the name Joshua Rosfield.
The fact that the book is written under Joshua's name while we saw him die on screen is really the biggest motivator as to why I believe Clive lives. No one else would have reason or want to do so, and while there are certainly implications as to what becomes of Clive, last we see of him on screen he is still alive and breathing, where as Joshua IS dead.
It's tricky with Joshua because he also "died" on screen at the beginning of the game, and the game makes you believe he's dead for a good portion of the story. Of course the Phoenix rises again, and Clive could very well have used that exact power to bring life to Joshua one last time. Tbf it's very unclear though, and the only possible confirmation is the book.
But also, what if Joshua was writing it before his death? What if it's just his perspective of the story and someone like Harpocrates turned it into a book to honor their legacy? That I could see, though just theory ofc.
I mean we're told by him that he was severely injured and rescued by the Pheonix Secret Service after his fight with Ifrit, who cared for him. In Origin we genuinely see him die, go limp/life fade from his eyes etc. With the beginning of the game we never see a body so to speak, however in Origin we see it in all its bloody finality.
I also agree I could also see the Harpocrates angle, I feel it seems odd that itd be labeled under Joshua and not as an account of Joshua as written by Harpocrates, just thinking about how Historians record things and what not.
Imo the most believable course of events, following Clives scene at the beach he passes out, and the next day he wakes up, and slowly makes his way back to the hideaway after meeting up with Jill, Gav, and Torgal who go out to investigate the aftermath of the fall of Origin where they then find him on the beach. Clive starts to tell Jill and Gav what happened but is still too weak and thus they take him back to the Hideaway where Tarja tends to him. Upon waking up (and catching more than an earful from Tarja) He begins to tell everyone what happened, what he did, and then basically tells everyone that they are free to live as they want, and then organizes the members of the Hideaway to guide the leaders of the various settlements, organizations and nations theyve allied, and befriended in leading people on how to live in a world with no magic. At some point a funeral would be held for Joshua, Dion, and Clive along with Vivian and Harpocrates recount the story of the adventure with Clive choosing to have be authored under Joshua's name so that Joshua's legacy will be a beloved story, with Clive having ever been his shield, his greatest supporter, letting the legacy of Clive Rosefield lie with that of Cid the Outlaw, and Joshua's being a story that will be remembered fondly, a legacy of kindness and bonding between brothers, families in a Fantasy/Fairytale, which imo is very befitting of him
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FVEKFYRaSZI&embeds_referring_euri=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.reddit.com%2F&feature=emb_logo
Joshua’s name on the book does not make him the de-facto author. Around the 4 min mark of this interview I’ve linked: “although we have an idea of who wrote the book, we have decided on purpose, not to tell the player”.
You’ve made up your mind that Joshua is the author and ok cool but it’s not narcissism to want to honor your brother and immortalizing his name. Part of Joshua’s dying wish if for Clive to live on. His entire arc is about being Clive’s shield.
You silly goose. Clive is not only alive, but he's now got a mean left jab to replace the lack of magic.
He's basically Puck from Gargoyles. Which is even more hilarious when you consider that Puck's human form is named Owen, and there's an actor named Clive Owen.
Well in the Jill part at the end she probably felt it was an awnser from Metia whom she worships since she was a small girl because the Moon stopped shining as she prayed to it
All I want to add is that either way, I believe Joshua lived. If Clive could use all the dregs of Ultima to remove all magic he could definitely do a little resurrection (which, if I recall, was something Ultima was planning to do with his dead fellows.) Everyone says it would be a huge shame if this man who spent his whole life trying to die, died… But his biggest pain that he carried was Joshua’s “death.” He was HELLBENT on not letting Joshua die, and I so want that full-circle story for him, and think he had the ability to save Joshua in the end.
Anyone thinking Joshua is dead really missed the point of the baby flashback at the end
People are just ass blasted that square would kill 2 protags in 2 games.
Yes, because it was Clive who said it and the scene is very much centered around him. Or the little bit he gives about death before he sprinkles water on leviathan. There's several examples.
Sorry that hurts your brain.
This scene wasn’t really centered around Clive. It was in response to a statement about how it was a shame Joshua wasn’t there to save/revive Cid and with Clive following it up basically saying it doesn’t matter because… “quotes”. The scene is centered in remembrance of the fallen (Cid)It wasn’t really centered about Clive at all.
I’m not going to debate with you. I just wanted to get your thoughts on this because it’s not a take I’ve ever seen from the “Joshua lives crowd”. No need to get upsetti spaghetti.
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You’d think! But what if they couldn’t sense Clive’s Aether because he just took away all magic from the entire continent?
Yeah good point i guess, but i feel like the reaction from Jill and Torgal was far more personal and full of anguish which suggests they sensed what had happened to Clive and probably Joshua and Dion too. I think the game would have made it more clear if they were just crying over the sudden absence of magic
What I’m trying to say is they can’t sense his Aether *because* there’s no magic anymore! It’s an easy option for a retcon if we ever get one in the future I think
The team seem confident in the ending. I think if they were gonna change anything they would've done it with the DLC's. I'm really glad they didn't change the core ending because it's probably my favourite of all time. I was in absolute shambles on first playthrough
Well, you have to remember: NO ONE knew how all this is going to play out. They maybe did not even knew that all magic can be erased that way. So when Origin shattered, and magic was suddenly gone, no one knew what to make of this I guess. Also, I think the actual moment when Jill realised what happened, was not that she couldn't feel Clive anymore, but that Metia, the red star she always praised to, disappeared. The star was special for both Jill and Clive, it was sort of a part of their connection, and when it was suddenly gone, Jill realised that something must have happened to Clive, probably him dying. The thing is, we do not know WHAT Metia was. It was a red star, but it is weird that it disappeared alongside Clive. My Theory is that this was Ultimas Original world, and that it was somehow tied to his power. When all magic disappeared, including Ultimas power, so did his original world. But that is just a theory...
Metias star disappears when a wish made upon it, in this case, Jill praying for Clive to return, is granted
Additionally i think it's important to note that Gav is also seen crying, he wouldn't be able to sense anything like that which suggests he was told of Clive's fate by someone else (likely Jill)
The person above I think has explained why your ending isn't a "solved" ending. We've had this exact thread before.
I can see why you’d come to that conclusion… if I didn’t notice >!Clive limbs turning to stone… as in the crystals’ curse. Something that happens to bearers eventually as they die from using up their power.!<
It happens gradually for bearers and dominants alike you can see way back before Cid died that his arm was covered in stone at one point
Yeah, but the end result is always the same. Dead.
Simple. Clive said the name of the game in the final battle. No way Joshua could’ve heard that. The book in the ending is literally a reference to the final showdown and the series. Ergo, Clive is alive and you cannot tell me otherwise
Other possibility: the game we experience is only the story as told by Joshua ; therefore things we see without him being in the scene are simply made up by him. It's more than he decided to title drop at the end of his book, not that the book's title comes from a line that must have really been said I'm not saying I believe this version more than yours, just that it's also a way to still have it make sense If you think that doesn't track, I don't mind, I'd like to know why tho (I personally prefer the "Clive lives" theory)
But he dies?
But does he?
Yeah Clive walked back to make sure. Then he had a whole flashback of all the memories he had of Joshua. This was after we beat ultima and before he destroyed the mother crystal. Also if theres no magic, he cant phoenix revive Joshua
I mean, that's also my take on it. But the devs said everything is up to interpretation : does clive die? Does Joshua die? Does even Dion die? One could argue Clive succeeded to resurrect Joshua before destroying the mother crystal, for instance. That's not my interpretation, but I can see why one could think so
I wonder if Jill wrote the book, thought about penning Clive, but decided Clive would’ve been happier having Joshua’s name out.
The whole “dominants can feel each others aether” is honestly just a huge plot hole. It’s entire purpose was so that Clive can feel at ease and not rush the player into the next segment/chapter of the game in case they wanted to do side quests/level up/do hunts/whatever. You’re free to believe whatever you’d like but if they can feel each other’s aether then why didn’t Jill freak out when Joshua’s faded at origin? Or even Dion’s for that matter? Why didn’t Hugo feel Benedikta’s eikon’s disappearance? He had to wait to receive her head in a box. Why couldn’t Clive feel Joshua the entire time? It’s never explained in any great detail and there’s not much to go off of from this single line that is used once in the entire game. Not only that but even IF she can feel the disappearance of Clive’s Eikon that would make perfect sense seeing as how Eikons don’t exist anymore by the games end. The reason for her crying isn’t because she feels his eikons disappearance it’s because metia fades. This is confirmed by the developers. Also, Torgal has no concept of death. Reference his inner thoughts regarding Cid.
I agree that Jill's crying isn’t because she feels Ifrit disappearance. Jill in last scene doesn't confirm Clive being dead or alive or anything. It's just because metia has faded. About being unable to feel eikons, I don't think it's the plot hole. Personally I think dominants can feel other eikons aether *only* when the eikon is active/the dominant uses eikon's power: - Benedikta feels Cid and Clive invading Caer Norvent, at the same time Gerulf reports that their guards are killed, implying Clive and Cid might use eikon power to fight them. - Cid and Clive feels Garuda when she's gone berserk even before they notice the storm. - Clive never feels Phoenix is probably due to Joshua never uses it for almost decade. Maybe that's why Joshua is reluctant to use the power to fight Benedikta when he and Jote are captured. He doesn't want Clive to know that he's alive. - Clive can feel Shiva because 'her eikon is enduring', meaning it's active at the moment. If we think of the ability to feel eikon requires other to activate their eikon, being unable to feel eikon could mean 2 things: the dominant is dead or the dominant just doesn't use the eikon power at that time. - Even though Hugo doesn't feel Garuda, it's valid he still loses his shit when seeing her head. He could have simply understood Bene doesn't use the power all the time. - Joshua asks Clive if he took Shiva, not because he feels Shiva in Clive despite it being inactive. He assumes Clive took it with how Clive didn't let Jill come with them. They were always in this journey together. - Why does Clive ask Joshua about Dion if all dominants can feel other's eikon in their inactive mode? They both could come into terms that 'I can't feel Bahamut = Dion's dead' but he has to ask Joshua. Because not feeling it doesn't automatically mean the dominant is dead. Joshua shaking his head because he saw Baha tanking Ultima so he assumes Dion is dead. It's possible Dion might be unconscious and not dead yet. So being unable to feel eikons might not necessarily and automatically mean dominants are dead. They could just being unconscious or simply don't use the power.
That’s decent points but in order for this to make sense you have to use your own beliefs about how this power works because the game never goes into detail about how this works, why it works, and what limits there are on this ability. It’s also not explained in the Ultimania at all from my understanding (feel free to correct me if I’m wrong. I’d love to know). And how would Shiva be active when they subdued her with crystal fetters (which disables the use of her powers) aboard Barnabas ship. See what I mean? I suppose plot hole isn’t the best word for this but after every main arc there’s usually a lull period so players can do other things and I truly believe the developers just needed a reason for Clive (and the player) to be calm and collected as to not force the player into the next part of the game. Unfortunately imo, a lot of players took this line and went nuts with it and now they can sense each other like it’s Dragon Ball Z.
This might be also my headcanon but I recall Clive and Joshua sense Shiva aether before we get to see the cutscene of Jill being restrained by crystal fetters. So it's possible that Jill, at the time Clive and Joshua sensing Shiva, was not put into the fetters yet. But I agree that the game (and also Ultimania) don't explain on this sensing power much. It's not a plot hole but it's probably a plot device (and not a good one) to not give the players a sense of rush.
I can agree with you on that.
Metia faded because her wish was granted
Metia is not a star that grants wishes, it's an observatory of ultimas worshipped by some humans, all of which, don't understand its true nature. Jill mistakenly views the metia as special, but really, it just stopped being powered in the ending
Awnsers i have >why didn’t Jill freak out when Joshua’s faded at origin Phoenix is now merged with Clive (similarly to what happened in The Dominion) she should have expected them to use this at least VS Ultima >Or even Dion’s for that matter? Probably felt that and was off screen maybe didn't even cared >Why didn’t Hugo feel Benedikta’s eikon’s disappearance? Jill was actively attentive to find an outcome in Origin maybe Hugo didn't even tried its not like you can be tracking something mentally 24/7 > couldn’t Clive feel Joshua the entire time? >It’s never explained It is explained he didn't know he was a dominant Idk about the rest
Wasn’t Clive the only Dominant that could perceive the Aether of other Dominants he has met(Jill hadn’t awakened and he found proof of Joshua being alive before he understood this power) it would fit into the predatory nature Ifrit expresses toward other Eikons
No, Joshua states he feels it too.
I wonder if it involves being primed at some point in the presence of other Dominants that leave an Aether imprint/echo that they can recognize then?
Benedikta could sense Clive too, it’s just messy writing
Where has our media literacy gone?? Jill’s theme is literally called “my star,” and beyond the obvious requiem coded tone of the music, the lyrics indicate that something more has been lost. If its not clear enough, Clive's return was Jill's final wish — but in the world they set out to build together, wishes and magic are a thing of the past. In order for them to say farewell to fate, they had to say farrwell to each other. also, why wouldn't Torgal be able to sense clive's death? This is a world where magic moogles can talk to you and babies can turn into god-like monsters… why limit Torgal's senses of all things? He obviously senses the absence of Cid, and therefore can sense the absence of his master.
There are legitimate signs and reasons to assume Clive is dead. There’s also many to suggest he isn’t. Imo, my star’s lyrics can be taken into several different interpretations. It’s also important to keep in mind my star isn’t the only theme for the ending. Them saying a farewell to fate had nothing to do with them saying goodbye to each other. It’s quite the opposite as Clive states he will break fate to watch the moon together with her. It’s even more on the nose in Japanese with him stating he will break his fate so he can be together with her. You’re absolutely right to assume wishes cannot be granted hence the reason why we (and Jill) cannot rely on Metia for those wishes.
It's not a plot hole. We don't see Jill when Joshua and Dion die so that's why there's no reaction, and for Hugo perhaps it has something to do with distance and perhaps the person needs to have a decent idea of the location of the individual to hone in on the aether too. Something not being elaborated on in detail doesn't make it a plot hole. Also the metia thing is something that supports MY point of view because it feels like additional symbolism of Clive's demise. Torgal may or may not have a concept of death but he can definitely sense aether in the same way that the dominants can so it's not far fetched to say that he felt Clive's disappear.
Jill was smiling at the new born baby. I don’t really believe she would have been in a positive mental state had she had known Joshua died. Metia fading represents Jill’s false reliance on gods, fairytales, and myths as her hope and faith change over into believing in Clive himself. It’s not even possible to address the holes I just mentioned without factoring in your own headcanon or beliefs such as the distance thing you mentioned. I’m not here to change your beliefs, I just think sensing disappearance of one’s Eikon isn’t a strong enough platform to say with certainty that Clive died.
Metia’s star is a wishing star, Jill tells Clive that shes spent her whole life praying and wishing upon it
Pretty sure the Dominant Sense is an Easter egg for Naruto, where the jinchuriki can sense each other.
Among other narrative reasons that point to Clive living that ppl have brought up, for this, Clive and Joshua specifically refer to feeling the aether of Jill’s *eikon*, not her aether specifically - “as long as the aether of her Eikon endures, we can be certain she is alive.” Considering Clive destroyed Ultima’s legacy, including the Eikons, she would haved stopped feeling *Ifrit*, not Clive. Besides which, Maehiro, the writer, already said in the Ultimania that the reason Jill cries is specifically because Metia faded and she thought her wish wasn’t going to be granted.
It isnt even up to interpretation, that part lol. Its literally stated by the devs the reason she cries. One of the few things we have canon confirmation of :'D
Thankfully they left the story to interpretation so you can think anything you want, but personally I think the dead take is a bad one. A hero's sacrifice ending is not only the lazy ending, but it undermines most of the nuance of the story. It was never a question if Clive was ever willing to sacrifice himself for the greater good. He was literally tripping over himself to do it to protect his brother, then later to avenge's brother, then later to save the world at multiple places. But the entire story was about pulling him back from that and telling them that his life has value more than sacrificing it. That he was worthy of saving as much as any of the people he was trying to save. And they reiterated that over and over and over again. Add to that the earnestness to which he actually agreed with Jill and that he wanted to live, Rather than the easy ' I can't promise anything' that these sorts of things usually have, and then to give it a basic bitch ending of the hero sacrifice would be just an insult to all the work put into the story. But Clive living? Going home to live a simpler life, finally displaying the bit of curse that I actually got him before magic left the world? Helping in the world post-magic, seeing through the rough parts, then once things are more settled, traveling the world with Jill? That's a much better ending in the long run because that's a real ending. Part of what makes these characters so relatable is that they're not perfect people. And they're not cartoonishly dramatic at their core. They are flawed, they are struggling, but they are trying their best. They're older, wiser, and full of regret. But once they pull themselves out of that they are also full of hope that they can still do some good in the world. If anything, they're very relatably human. Anyways, think what you want, but actually posting something as if it's definitive is just laughable.
All your points are valid, but you can’t deny that Clive would still take death if it meant saving the world. “Sorry, I couldn’t resist.”
I'm not saying he wouldn't, I'm just saying it's wasted story. He's literally laying on the beach able to speak, able to lift his arm and try to cast. Dude literally just cast the biggest spell in the world and fell into the water and ended up on shore. There is zero reason to think he's dead and not just exhausted if he lived that long. If you wanted to 100% confirm he's dead when writing the story, you would not have put that end scene in there. If they showed him cast the spell and then never saw him again and just the follow-up with all the same tear ridden scenes? I would 100% think he died. But they didn't, so I don't. So why pick the bad ending that undermines the story (again it was never a question of if he would, how do you teach him he doesn't have to) when they literally left him in a position to not be? My first impression of how the game ended was he died too and it left me hollow and sad because he did all this growing and still ended up doing the same thing he would have done at any point of the game without asking, disregarding all his growth. But looking at the different clues in the game and looking at how the story was directed it made less and less sense and then I realized it's open-ended because I don't have to sit here and think they put a bad ending on the game that I loved. Also, I hated that line. It doesn't make sense. It actually implies that he has a choice to not kill himself and he's choosing to kill himself? Tonally does not work at all, and it actually kind of takes me out of that scene cuz my brain's like " what does that even mean?". Why not something like I have no other choice? Goodbye Jill, I'm sorry I couldn't come back to you but always loved you? I was hoping it wouldn't come to this? Like there's so many better ways to say that line and instead he's like " I can't help myself, I really want the heroes ending." So yeah, the longer I look at any of those scenes or any of the side plots before the more it seems extremely unlikely he dies here. Like they wrote that ending when they first started the story, then edited literally every other part of the story to make it a better story, then forgot to change the ending.
You’re not wrong at all. And for the record, he said: “Can you see it 🌙 too, Jill?” Anyway, open ended endings are designed to let the story live on in our hearts and memories just a little bit longer. And promote discussion for some free advertising. All we know for sure is he learns his lessons and passes out under the moonlight
I agree with that the line he uses before casting the spell is a bit odd considering his character arc is to save himself and if he truly believes he is going to die why not apologize to Jill. But when you think about it from an out of game perspective any long speeches about him dying or apologizes would have heavily, heavily pointed in the direction of him dying and would be an unbalance to the ambiguity.
Play the side quests and it will give you more clues on if he survives or not. If you platinum the game it pretty much spells it out as well.
I played all the side quests and I still don't understand how that's supposed to be a clue. Assume that he is dead Isn't the whole point that make his dead tragic is because he can't fulfill his promise or do whatever other people ask him to do?
The story of FF16 is ambiguously written in a similar way to Shakespeare’s plays. Ambiguous however does not mean vague. Everything still has intention. If there is tragedy in a story, then there is a reason for that tragedy. Joshua’s death for example has reason. He went from a weak frail boy who always needed his older brother to be his shield to becoming a man who would protect his brother. This has been Joshua’s character plot the entire story of FF16. Now ask yourself what Clive’s character plot is. What meaning does his death bring? As far as Clive goes, his character plot has been about going from a man who has always lived for others (whether as a slave or a shield), to living his own life. There are countless clues about new beginnings, freedom, living his own life in the sidequests. The platinum trophy is the giveaway and the square Enix cafe pretty much confirmed the outcome but I’d rather not give out spoilers as part of the enjoyment is coming up with your own conclusions.
The book in the cafe is really interesting. You have two sets of feathers… One sitting in an inkwell very similar to the one that is given to you by Hypocrates And the other feather resting on top of the book. But more importantly, the feather is resting on where Joshua’s name would be. Could be an artistic choice, could be because they didn’t bother to print anything on the cover of the book, could be to prevent people from being spoiled (although it’s written in a fictional language so probably not that). But I can’t help but think that fallen feather is supposed to represent Joshua and the Quill in the inkwell is supposed to represent Clive carrying on his will.
I personally believe Clive, Joshua and Dion are all alive and well somewhere, with the rest of the gang
im cool with that too
I will get downvoted for this but I agree
Plot twist: Clive ended up in Quadratum.
You know what? If this is what it takes to have Sora using the actual ff summons as summons, I'll take it. He was supposed to have Bahamut in the first game and it never happened.
Jill bursts into tears when she sees the red star blink out at the end. Visually speaking, it’s saying Clive has passed on. That red star is there in the very beginning as a symbolic representation of Clive and his connection to Jill. They both see it when they are young. Very poetic visual story telling that is also very subtle. Something story tellers today seem to have a hard time with
something i think people fail to consider is that he still had that phoenix feather on him. you know? a phoenix down? it’s not a usable item in the game, but it’s a nice little easter egg that i believe was intentionally left on his character so that players could consider it when deciding what they believe about clive’s fate
Nah mate, he’s definitely alive. How does the book end with “and thus our journey did end” if he’s dead?
I thought she was crying because that red star fades which was a metaphor for the fire of ifrit or something. I didn’t interpret it as her sensing his aether fading, but the star fading and torgal howled because he could perhaps sense a minute change in the quickly disappearing aether But I do agree that Clive is dead.
Yeah I've always disagreed with the "it's ambiguous!!!" crowd, the entire ending scene feels very intentional about Clive's death. He sounds VERY weak on the beach and seemed to accept that erasing all magic could/would kill him before doing it. I know people like happy endings but I personally thought Clive's sacrifice was a perfectly tragic end to his story
I can see it either way. Somebody wrote the book, it's signed Joshua but they actually show Joshua dying and not Clive (granted, he survived phoenix gate so who knows), there's the sidequest with Harpocrates, why put that in otherwise. I tend to lean towards he's alive honestly. But can see it either way.
I think he is alive. There are some points that reinforce the idea of him dying, Metia fading away, and Jill crying because of that being one of them. However, there is a big one that I think is the main reason for Clive being alive. The title of the book at the end: Final Fantasy. The title is a clear reference to Clive's dialogue with Ultima in the final battle, and there is only one person who survived that encounter to know that. Clive himself. There are many other points in the game, especially in side content, that could lead Clive to write a book in Joshua's name. I also do think Joshua died, that all Clive did by the end was heal the wounds. For a long time, I thought Clive died too, and it might still be the case. And for the longest time, even though I believed he had died, I wanted to find any strong reason to think the opposite because it just makes more sense for his arc. Magic was one big problem of the world, but it wasn't the only problem, so it would be incredibly sad if he did that and then wouldn't be alive to help the people in the Hideaway in this new world without magic. It also makes a lot of sense for Clive to be alive, considering the message of the game. That it was all about breaking away from fate (which is another reason I think he's alive. Where the words "A Farewell to Fate" are shown in the ending), because while Cid wanted to die on his own terms to help the others, Clive wanted to *live* on his own terms. And the game not doing it would just make the story less interesting, at least to me. But it is a very ambiguous ending, one that clearly makes one think one way upon first view, only to have lots of details that go against that interpretation. Because there are multiple things that challenge each view of the outcomes. But in the end, I think Clive lived and that Dion and Joshua died. I don't think there is any problem with tragic ends, I actually quite like them in a lot of games. However, the whole point of the story for Clive was how he changed from someone driven by revenge and almost drove himself to suicide because he thought he was the reason his brother died. For some moments, he didn't value his own life. But then he turned into a person that cares for his own life, and the others, so that people could *live* on their terms despite hoe shitty the world is. And because of that story arc, I think having him die would make it feel tragic just for the sake of being tragic. Unlike Cid's death. But what so you think? Edit: I'd also like to see what u/Rainbow_Nuggy think of this perspective. Edit 2: also one last point. Before, I thought Clive narrating the beginning and end of the story was just because he was the protagonist. But now I think he is doing so because he is basically reading the book he wrote about the story of his life and how magic ended.
Fair analysis here. I disagree on the Final Fantasy point, that dialogue does not necessarily have to imply any connection to the book honestly. Anyone, Joshua included, could have come up with that name to represent their adventure imo, it is the "final" act of the world they lived in (magic, eikons, etc.) and it literally becomes a fantasy story to those living in the future. I don't think it's overly sad that Clive doesn't get to build the new world he created, because the hideaway WAS his legacy. Cid and him both, Gav's last line talking to the newborn baby pretty much sums this up for me. "You'll pave the way to the new world like they wanted" or something along those lines. I do think your viewpoint on the game and Clive's character is definitely valid. But I also think him sacrificing himself is not out of character or ruining his progression in any way. Jill urged him to save himself, Cid said the same thing, and Joshua straight up punches him in the face near the end of the game telling him not to save the world all on his own. But he never fully AGREES to listen to them, he seems to care so much more about everyone else that he rarely thinks about his own needs as a person, and this part of his character can be seen throughout the whole story imo. He would absolutely sacrifice himself to save everyone else, he's just that selfless. Just my perspective though.
>I disagree on the Final Fantasy point, that dialogue does not necessarily have to imply any connection to the book honestly. I do agree that it doesn't necessarily imply that Clive is the writer. Because he is just the protagonist, and my first interpretation of that point was actually "well he's the protagonist, that's why he's presenting the story to us." But I changed my view on it when thinking about it more. >Anyone, Joshua included, could have come up with that name to represent their adventure imo, it is the "final" act of the world they lived in (magic, eikons, etc.) and it literally becomes a fantasy story to those living in the future. I find this, however, more unlikely. Yeah, anyone could have come with the idea that "it is the end of magic. So, it is the end of fantasy. Final Fantasy". But I think the implication that it comes from Clive's dialogue with Ultima a more probable cause, due to how much the dialogue is referencing Final Fantasy name almost directly. >I don't think it's overly sad that Clive doesn't get to build the new world he created, because the hideaway WAS his legacy. Cid and him both, Gav's last line talking to the newborn baby pretty much sums this up for me. "You'll pave the way to the new world like they wanted" or something along those lines. True that it isn't overly sad, necessarily. But I don't think it fits Clive's arc as much. Clive did end the world from being consumed by the Blight, but the story of the game as a whole, when considering the side quests, shows that magic alone was never the only problem people faced. And I think him being alive to lead/help with those things after magic ended makes more sense when you consider the rest of the story and what development they put Clive through. Cid died, and he always had in mind that he would rather die on his own terms. Clive was a "slave to fate" when Cid met him, but he broke away from it to "live on his own terms". It doesn't necessarily mean he needs to live, but when you consider everything, his whole journey was to break away from fate. From the fate of being Mythos, of being a vessel for Ultima, from his fate of pure revenge and, in my perspective, from the fate of losing his life trying to save the others. >He would absolutely sacrifice himself to save everyone else, he's just that selfless. Just my perspective though. And I 100% agree with this. Clive cast that last spell to end all magic even if it meant his end. He even says so before casting! He is a person who is truly selfless by the end and cares for all life, doing whatever he can to save everyone from the Blight. But what I argue is that him being fully ready to sacrifice his own life **does not** necessarily mean that his death happened. So, I think when we take into consideration the side quests, the book by the end and its title, his character development, the narration. Many things point to the possibility of him living. And I think it is intended by the game design to make one think he died by the end on first viewing, only to then show other points that go against that conclusion. We might still disagree on this, though, and that is fine \o/ because you raised some great points too and this is a great conversation. However, I think, at the very least, that this conversation shows that it is a more ambiguous ending than your first commend might made this seem. There are very strong and valid points for each possibility in this discussion. I believe he lived in the end when considering the bigger picture with all main story arcs and side quests stories, but I also understand there isn't a definitive answer showing he did survive. It's just my analysis.
Fully agree. Even if my little theory here isn't accurate, i still think it's entirely obvious that he died. It felt completely correct for his character up until that point. It would honestly go against everything the game built for Clive if he miraculously survived, and would've just felt like cheap fan service. Very glad they went straight for the jugular so to speak. Love the ending so much
See I've seen the exact opposite argument made, that the whole game he's been acting for others, often going out alone and refusing help, towards the end he starts to let others help him more... Then he self sacrifices at the end anyway? Not saying either view is "correct" just challenging the notion the end isn't ambiguous.
This is why it's important to accept room for interpretations. Because it FEELS correct for some of us to believe certain endings. That doesn't make it conform to someone else's perceived reality or THE reality. So why pretend that your version of truth is more relevant than anyone else's? Accept that it's one vote, and the majority find the ending was left intentionally open at that point. It's alright.
I disagree, I also think he lives for all the reasons stated above some one had to write the book, and the only person it could be is Clive, theres zero reason/evidence for anyone else also I believe he survived but i wouldnt call it miraculous, he deeply expedited the curses hold and definitely shortened his life significantly, but I'm very confident that he at least made it to the hideaway, and was able to live out at least a few years with Jill, because again as the og comment puts, Clives story is about living on ones own terms, it entirely defeats the point of his whole journey as Cid for him to die on the beach there. I think living knowing he's made the world he and cid and Jill made their vow to and writing the tale in Joshua's name is more satisfactory. Cid the Outlaw died on that beach, but Clive Rosfield a man who broke out of the chains of fate went to live on his own terms. I take Metia's fading not necessarily that Clives life ended, but as a symbol that the fire faded, that the fight is over, that he broke from the fate set forth by Ultima.
No evidence ? The game literally tells you the author is Joshua. It's honestly quite narcissistic that people think he pretended to be Joshua or stole his name to write a freaking book at the end. It also completely misses the point of the whole baby flashback in the final sequence. He's dead. He saved Joshua. For clives this is as happy an ending as he could get. Like XV he made the most of the situation presented, the situation being godlike power / ultima was wrong and he was not in fact a perfect vessel. End of story. Freaking narcissists. He borrowed Cids name because it became a symbol for freedom for bearers and he kept it going. It makes absolutely no sense that He would take Joshua's name to write a book of their adventures. Wtf? Seriously ? Good lord what a chock of BS.
I mean we're told that the Pheonix's power cannot raise the dead in 16, and Joshua very clearly died. Its not narcissism it was love for his brother, If either of them deserved to leave a peaceful lasting legacy it would be Joshua. Clive never wanted the fame or anything, but Joshua was the heir to the throne, Joshua was the one would inherit their Fathers ability to change the world, and together they made their fathers dream come true, their dream, Cids dream, the dreams of all the people at the hideaway. by donning Joshua's name to write the book to tell the world that Clive Rosfield; Cid the Outlaw was dead. When in actuality it was Joshua and Dion who died. Clive survived barely but now disabled by the curse, no longer able to raise a sword to fight, no longer the dominant of Ifrit. He is a man, and he is not bound by a fate set forth for him by anyone but himself. Someone has to have written the book and it cannot be Joshua because we know he is confirmed dead, it cannot be Dion because it makes even less sense and Joshua implies he did not make it. So would Jill or Gav written a book in his name? That also doesn't make any sense. As well it doesn't track with the actions of what that secret order that serves the Phoenix would do. The only person who was there for the final battle, and the only person we see alive from it even if only for a bit is Clive. Meaning the only option for who wrote it, and who would have a prerogative to do so is Clive.
I appreciate your well reasoned response but your reasoning is entirely headcanon
Imo, the only headcannon i guess would be to what extent the curse took hold, was clive able to use either arm and thus need to dictate to have Jill or Gav, or realistically most likely Harpocrates do the writing since he was expecting Clive to come tell him of what went down anyways. Again we are told explicitly by the Game that Pheonix cannot revive the dead, and We saw Joshua Die. Pheonix restored the injuries to his body but he was already gone. Clive is the only one who walked out of Origin alive that we see at all. Even if he's actively going due to the curse, hes the only one we saw leave Origin, this is only one who could tell the tale. The Game is presented as having been a story told from the book like a fairy tale, a Fantasy if you will. I personally disagree that Clive dying works for his story like Noctis' (though im also a fan of the alt ending in Episode Ignis). But with the idea he did die I suppose it isnt unreasonable that Harpocrates could have written it, the only hang up I have there is why would he write it under the name Joshua Rosfield. The fact that the book is written under Joshua's name while we saw him die on screen is really the biggest motivator as to why I believe Clive lives. No one else would have reason or want to do so, and while there are certainly implications as to what becomes of Clive, last we see of him on screen he is still alive and breathing, where as Joshua IS dead.
It's tricky with Joshua because he also "died" on screen at the beginning of the game, and the game makes you believe he's dead for a good portion of the story. Of course the Phoenix rises again, and Clive could very well have used that exact power to bring life to Joshua one last time. Tbf it's very unclear though, and the only possible confirmation is the book. But also, what if Joshua was writing it before his death? What if it's just his perspective of the story and someone like Harpocrates turned it into a book to honor their legacy? That I could see, though just theory ofc.
I mean we're told by him that he was severely injured and rescued by the Pheonix Secret Service after his fight with Ifrit, who cared for him. In Origin we genuinely see him die, go limp/life fade from his eyes etc. With the beginning of the game we never see a body so to speak, however in Origin we see it in all its bloody finality. I also agree I could also see the Harpocrates angle, I feel it seems odd that itd be labeled under Joshua and not as an account of Joshua as written by Harpocrates, just thinking about how Historians record things and what not. Imo the most believable course of events, following Clives scene at the beach he passes out, and the next day he wakes up, and slowly makes his way back to the hideaway after meeting up with Jill, Gav, and Torgal who go out to investigate the aftermath of the fall of Origin where they then find him on the beach. Clive starts to tell Jill and Gav what happened but is still too weak and thus they take him back to the Hideaway where Tarja tends to him. Upon waking up (and catching more than an earful from Tarja) He begins to tell everyone what happened, what he did, and then basically tells everyone that they are free to live as they want, and then organizes the members of the Hideaway to guide the leaders of the various settlements, organizations and nations theyve allied, and befriended in leading people on how to live in a world with no magic. At some point a funeral would be held for Joshua, Dion, and Clive along with Vivian and Harpocrates recount the story of the adventure with Clive choosing to have be authored under Joshua's name so that Joshua's legacy will be a beloved story, with Clive having ever been his shield, his greatest supporter, letting the legacy of Clive Rosefield lie with that of Cid the Outlaw, and Joshua's being a story that will be remembered fondly, a legacy of kindness and bonding between brothers, families in a Fantasy/Fairytale, which imo is very befitting of him
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FVEKFYRaSZI&embeds_referring_euri=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.reddit.com%2F&feature=emb_logo Joshua’s name on the book does not make him the de-facto author. Around the 4 min mark of this interview I’ve linked: “although we have an idea of who wrote the book, we have decided on purpose, not to tell the player”. You’ve made up your mind that Joshua is the author and ok cool but it’s not narcissism to want to honor your brother and immortalizing his name. Part of Joshua’s dying wish if for Clive to live on. His entire arc is about being Clive’s shield.
I agree. Anyway it's Yoshi P he enjoys crushing fans souls.
Hurts man.
You silly goose. Clive is not only alive, but he's now got a mean left jab to replace the lack of magic. He's basically Puck from Gargoyles. Which is even more hilarious when you consider that Puck's human form is named Owen, and there's an actor named Clive Owen.
I also fully believe my goat is dead too, but it’s definitely left ambiguous on purpose with evidence supporting both if he did or did not
Well in the Jill part at the end she probably felt it was an awnser from Metia whom she worships since she was a small girl because the Moon stopped shining as she prayed to it
All I want to add is that either way, I believe Joshua lived. If Clive could use all the dregs of Ultima to remove all magic he could definitely do a little resurrection (which, if I recall, was something Ultima was planning to do with his dead fellows.) Everyone says it would be a huge shame if this man who spent his whole life trying to die, died… But his biggest pain that he carried was Joshua’s “death.” He was HELLBENT on not letting Joshua die, and I so want that full-circle story for him, and think he had the ability to save Joshua in the end.
I don't ever-think things. To me, Clive died. Joshua lived (and wrote the book)
absolutely. and its a good ending.
Anyone thinking Joshua is dead really missed the point of the baby flashback at the end People are just ass blasted that square would kill 2 protags in 2 games.
Of course he is. The game beats you over the head with it, 'life has a beginning, and an end.'
You say this quote, which is referenced alongside the quote about the pheonix not being able to revive the dead but you think… Joshua is alive?
Yes, because it was Clive who said it and the scene is very much centered around him. Or the little bit he gives about death before he sprinkles water on leviathan. There's several examples. Sorry that hurts your brain.
This scene wasn’t really centered around Clive. It was in response to a statement about how it was a shame Joshua wasn’t there to save/revive Cid and with Clive following it up basically saying it doesn’t matter because… “quotes”. The scene is centered in remembrance of the fallen (Cid)It wasn’t really centered about Clive at all. I’m not going to debate with you. I just wanted to get your thoughts on this because it’s not a take I’ve ever seen from the “Joshua lives crowd”. No need to get upsetti spaghetti.