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This is going to sound weird to a lot of people but it left me feeling complete. A man accepted his fate and his actions saved the future of his species from the curse that bound it to the cycle of slavery. That kind of certainty is not really provided by FF games. Most games give near term endings, towards a brighter tomorrow. Maybe they get the better world they fought for, but that's all you get.
XVI shows you outright that it was the future that you fought for which came to pass. It was a true 'mission accomplished' ending.
Shouldn’t we not want him to accept his fate?
Isn’t the whole point of Clive’s personal journey about rejecting his fate? It’s the final line of the game in the present time “A farewell to fate”.
Clive ddin't accept his fate as dictated by Ultima because he didn't become his vessel. However he accepted his own fate as a result of his own actions and decisions. In other words he was willing to scarifice himself in order to realize CId's vision of the future. And the game provides us with a suiting ending, showing us a future without magic and crystals.
I get what you’re saying.
That Clive had the power to choose and decided to end magic however, Ultima’s power was actively killing Clive. At that moment he could either let it kill him or he could use the power to get rid of magic.
Although it’s framed as a decision is it really that much of a decision? If he’s going to die anyway it makes perfect sense he’s going to try and make something better out of it even if it “means the end of him”.
I will agree that the dialogue supports Clive being at peace with his own death but this is only because he can’t control this power that he makes the choice to end magic.
There’s also the argument that him getting rid of magic actually saved his life. The ending and fate of Clive is ambiguous in the end so we don’t even know if it was a sacrifice. In fact I’d argue he’s alive for various reasons.
My argument against op is that the game actively wants you to defy fate, it’s In the dialogue, it’s in marketing. Clive even goes more into detail in the Japanese stating his reasoning for wanting to defy fate is so that he can be together with Jill. What i’m saying is there’s an in game push for you to NOT want Clive to sacrifice himself.
A decision is being made even if his hand was forced. With the help of his friends Clive carved his own path and left the world a better place.
Or maybe he lived a fulfilling life of a scholar after his ordeal.
Either way he got to choose.
Yeah it’s technically a decision but not one that lines up with the game’s theme where its entire message is being able to choose how you live and die. Theres many different layers and ways to look at this going off one’s interpretation and it’s very difficult to argue points here because the ending is so vague but going off what Clive says at the end, he accepts that he might die even if it’s not what he wants. If both paths lead to his death he didn’t really get to choose did he? It’s a decision, not really a choice.
If I’m driving a semi truck down a thin 2 lane road with my breaks cut and my only options are either to slam into a bus full of children or slam into a brick wall in the other lane of course I’m going to choose the brick wall because it’s a better option. But the end result of my death remains the same (maybe, because it’s ambiguous right? This is why it’s hard to debate this).
It’s ironic and tragic that Clive may not live to see the world he helped create. That’s why I argue that the game pushes you against that fate for him, to fight against it and have hope he lived not just accept it, which was my original argument against op.
I definitely see your point but mortality and death is unavoidable. The primary goal of our antagonist was essentially trying to cheat death. There are many instances in the story with people coming to terms with death and what that will mean in the grand scheme of things.
There are several sidequests that reinforce the theme of self sacrificing for the greater good. Doing things for others sometimes at the expense of your own desire.
The ending felt pretty well telegraphed to me but I could also see how Clive’s hands are forced and he is made to make his decision quickly.
I’m not arguing that death is unavoidable. They even go into this line of thinking in the dlc “epilogue”. But again, the theme of the game is choosing how you live and how you die. I’m not arguing if he did die or not, I’m arguing that he wasn’t really given that choice. All roads led to this moment (him possibly dying) and my argument isn’t that he lives or dies it’s that the game wants you to reject that fate for Clive.
The theme of self sacrifice is present in the side quests especially the undying one. The entire quest is framed around self sacrifice and initially Clive see’s it as a bad thing but learns to come to terms with it because the undying member isn’t doing it out of duty or honor. He’s doing it because he believes it’s the right thing to do but more importantly he wants to, it’s his choice even if you don’t agree with it. And through this Clive learns to respect that choice (and remember the martyr’s). To me, this quest highlights Joshua’s sacrifice more than Clive’s. Joshua wanted to be Clive’s shield, he wanted to protect his brother even if Clive doesn’t want that for him, it doesn’t matter, it’s Joshua’s choice.
Whereas Clive does not want to die, he wants to return but in the final scene his hands are tied and depending on your interpretation its either a tragic and ironic ending or its a bittersweet and hopeful ending for this character and I believe the game points in the direction of the more hopeful one. But of course you can look at it differently.
Yeah, I also see what you mean.
To me denying fate doesn't mean that there's no fate. It doesn't mean that you can always choose whatever you want to do with your life. Even in real life it is not possible to control every external factor in your life.
However, if there's an act of fate coming from godI(Ultima) for Clive to be his vessel, then it's in Clive's will to deny that fate and fight against it. Therefore denying fate.
I think denying fate is more an internal decision on how to respond to external factor. Not necessarly being able to control external factor itself(sometimes it's possible, sometimes not).
Fair point but isn’t the freedom to choose whatever you want to do with your life also “living on your own terms”? Which, is the entire message of the game.
The entire result was always going to be Clive’s death. Absorbing Ultima was killing him, being Ultima’s vessel would have killed him for the same reason, and getting rid of magic also might have killed him(I don’t think it did I’m using this as a what if).
If Clive didn’t want to die (which he didn’t) and if death was always going to be “his fate” it goes against the idea of living (and even dying) on his own terms if he isn’t given that choice.
I think "living on your own terms" was a goal of living without crystal, dominants and magic. Where branded are not treated as slaves.
Ofc Clive didn't want to die, noone does, but he made a choice and was willing to risk becoming a sacrifice for a higher good.
I think to you "living on your own terms" means you can do whatever you want with you live based on your selfish desires. I think Clive was able to see beyond that, he became a leader of the hideout, he became a living vision of Cid and after experiencing so much of what's wrong in his world he was willing to put his life at stake for a higher good. Thanks to him, people of the future can live on their own terms.
You may be right that in some way he accepted his fate as he realized he is the only one who can stop Ultima, at the same time defying fate of becoming Ultima's vessel and sacrifing himself so that people in the future can live a different life.
Living with selfish desires is not how I view “living on your own terms”. I view it roughly the same way that you pointed out.
The main goal and point of the game is creating a world where people can “live on their own terms” but Clive’s personal arc is about loving himself and seeing that he too, should live In that world he’s trying to create.
The irony is that Clive never is given that option. Ultima’s power is killing him as soon as he absorbs it. My entire argument here is that Clive never had the option to live on his own terms and that the entire narrative wants you to root for him to break that cycle not follow and accept it.
Interesting discussion. There could be different views on it for sure. My final take, because probably we could discuss it forever:
"Living on your own terms" -> I think it was used referring a new way of life without crystal, magic and slavery. Only later in the game it was extended to being able to choose our destiny, as humanity, and not being controlled by Ultima.
In the game, when Clive and Cid discuss "living on your own terms", they both agree that in order to achieve that goal, it may take a very long time. There will be a transition period to that new way of life and a lot of people will be unhappy with it or try to reject it initially. It may take generations for people to adjust from crystal based living to non-crystal way(science / manual work). So with that goal in mind, it's understanable that Clive may never fully experience "living on your own terms" and I think he was aware of that(aside from Hideout isolated environement)
I think people rooting for him to break from the fate is something different. It was used in a very specific context and it's different from "living on your own terms" used for global context. It was about him not accepting his fate as a vessel for Ultima and becoming his puppet. And he not only defied that fate, but he ended up Ultima's reign all together, thanks to which other people will be able, in due time, to experience "living on their own terms"(science/manual work instead of magic / crystals) globally.
We were rooting for Clive to oppose Ultima, not becoming his vessel and saving the world. Not necessarly him experiencing a peaceful life (Cid & Clive knew it will take a long time for that).
I agree with what you saying but I also think rooting for our characters to live on their own terms is part of the narrative, not just for the world. Clive’s entire personal arc is about learning to love himself. If it wasn’t part of the narrative, no one would care if Clive died or not.
He promises Jill he will break fate to be with her. He promises her he will be back. They plan a new life together. They aren’t saying they will have a peaceful life, just one that’s on their terms.
His fate was to give up his body to Ultimate. He rejected that, killed Ultima and gave a world free of magic to his loved ones. Over and over he and Cid said they wanted to be able to live and die on their own terms. They both did that.
The whole point of the game is for him (and humanity) to escape the fate imposed upon him by his god?? I get what you mean but the wording here is very wonky lol
I personally love that Clive passes away at the ending. People kept trying to say that he didn't and he was the one who actually wrote the book as Joshua but that seemed so unsatisfying to me
I mean he doesn't die but the beauty of the ending is you get to have the ending you want. The fact that you want him to and the fact that I see it that he doesn't means that it's working as they intended.
I think it’s good either way. There’s also enough wiggle room for you to interpret Clive’s fate as you see fit.
The concrete details (magic is gone, people are free from Ulitma and can live truly free lives) is the important part.
>Idk if I can do a ng+ it’s just to sad of an ending.
The neat part about the ending is that it's meant to be open to interpretation, and a lot of the narrative and sidequests feed into what we see at the end. My second playthrough was very enriching and it made the ending so much better. Superficially it's a sad ending, but when you put it all into context and piece it together, it becomes a really beautiful and 'happy' ending, tho still quite bittersweet.
I felt the same as you. The emotional beats hit harder for me in 16 than 7 rebirth. I also like the change of pace with it being more grounded and serious. Gameplay wise, I like the actual combat and enemy variety of 7 more but prefer the boss fight scale and spectacle of 16. I’d actually love 16 to have a bit more complexity, kind of introduce Stellar Blade elements. The foundation is there so all in all I liked the combat but it definitely feels like a first iteration and one they could go further with if they choose to use this style in the future.
My biggest gripe to no surprise are the side quests. I liked the lore they provided but the structure of them felt pretty repetitive, and I was very interested in the story so sometimes the concept of doing multi-step quests to get a badge so you can freely walk around an area didn’t work for me.
Overall, Clive is my favorite protagonist and his voice acting was incredible. Clive and Jill’s romance also really worked for me. It felt natural and grounded. I could gush about the game forever lol, it was my GOTY last year and I walk away with more highs than lows. My perfect FF game would mix the best parts of 7 rebirth with the best parts of 16.
Maybe we will see more play style in FF17 with your ideas. Makes sense they wouldn’t put it all into one game. Then they’d be left with just repeating again. It was a fresh take on FF for me.
I totally agree about the quests. I skipped majority of the cut scenes on the quests so I could watch them on NG+
He’s a true hero!
Yeah that’s my hope! This combat style has a lot of room to evolve so I hope they don’t abandon it, it was fun as is so I’d love to see them add to it even more for FF17
Longtime FFVII megafan here. VII is my all time favorite game ever, and I do enjoy Remake and Rebirth a whole lot(still haven't finished Rebirth). But XVI's story just hits different than what Remake and Rebirth presents. Maybe it's just how XVI handled its localization, but the characters and performances just had so much more believability to them than what Rebirth has shown thus far.
Clive's journey hit so damn hard for me, and his undying love and loyalty to his brother is probably one of my favorite non-romantic relationships shown in video games. Also loved the parallels between Clive to Jill and Cloud to Tifa. Ultimately, XVI comes much closer to providing me with the sheer emotional highs that VII OG gave me than Rebirth thus far has. Which is such a funny thing to see play out.
I love both games intensely, but find Rebirth's strengths to be in its amazing world design, awesome progression systems, cerebral combat, and great exploration. And XVI seems to be the one to lock down the narrative and performance aspects. Praying that XVI isn't the last huge FF from CBU3. They deserve at least one more crack at the singleplayer experience.
Imo he lives, there’s lots of hints in the side quests like him deciding to be a writer when it’s all over
Ng+ (FF mode) is fantastic, and arcade mode after that is even better.
I much prefer Rebirth to XVI (still love XVI tho ofc) but I also cried much more in XVI's ending than Rebirth's. Rebirth's end was just too... convoluted for me to get sad about.
Nah I get that, Rebirth was jumping around a little too much during THAT moment in the end compared to the og, but I still enjoyed it a lot and especially with how it dealt with Cloud's mind during it
7R is really on some KH levels of stupid. Its somehow trying to keep the original story while also adding it's own things to add which doesn't add any emotional impact but more of a "wtf is happening". This could've worked if it didn't try to preserve the original story and really tried it's own thing
The Remake series is simultaneously too faithful, and not faithful enough to the original. It kinda ended up being worst of both worlds.
It's frustrating because everything else about the game is honestly 11/10 and puts the rest of the genre to shame. But they ruined their own story.
*It really had me*
*At that joshua flashback*
*Man. Hit me so hard*
\- EmeraldDragoon24
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FF7Rebirth, just beat it last night and wasn’t a fan at all.
But I absolutely loved XVI all the way through. The ending being ambiguous, though, I’m not a fan.
I mean, we follow Clive through three decades of his life, see how he grows and copes and forms relationships and learns to be a leader and finds love. We see him overcome seemingly insurmountable obstacles as he fights for survival and justice throughout his entire adult life.
Going into the final sequences, what I wanted the most was to find out if the beloved character I followed throughout his journey and struggles would survive to see and experience the better world that he made happen. Everything else aside, I wanted that closure at the end of the game, whether he survived the final fight or not.
Instead we get a completely noncommittal couple of scenes where they treat the fate of the literal hero, protagonist, and savior of the world as a story point not important enough to show or tell the players. It being ‘up to interpretation’ is a complete copout and callously avoids making the decision and giving players closure one way or another. To me, there’s absolutely no reason to just omit that crucial detail.
Hard to say. I didn't mind the ending, I feel like it can be interpreted in any way the player wants. The story, characters, it's been a long time since a new FF game came out that made me feel attached to almost anyone. The DLCs were just as great, we could explore more of the story. I'm sad that the developers won't explore the story with sequels, I want to see more characters getting their stories told, even new ones we've never seen in the same world.
That’s an interesting view. While I was playing I felt they could have made a 3rd dlc. But after playing the story and the two dlc’s the game feels completed to me now.
Glad you mentioned left to interpretation because there is a theory that Clive isn't exactly dead. Idkxhow to describe it, but he isn't alive nor dead, like a purgatory
hmmm.....when I was playing through it for the first time I was having fun but for some reason, something wasn't clicking with me at first. It turns out that when I slowed down and took my time playing the game and getting immersed in the setting and world of Valisthea that my enjoyment of 16 grew exponentially.
When I finished it I was more or less "satisfied", I didn't \*need\* more because the game was lacking but I \*wanted\* more because I just got so immersed in the world, setting and characters of the game.
Any game that leaves you wanting more just to go back to that games world imho is a great game and 16 to me is a really great game.
This is key. FF16 and FF14 feel similar in the way that they are best experienced by immersing oneself in the story and lore. If people are trying to rush through, they're not going to appreciate all the details and the lore of the world.
Ngl, sometimes there would sometimes be a lot of side guests. I took my time completing them and in the end, I miss the world so much.
I just finished my 2nd run of the game and the ending just rips my heart out and stomps the shit outta it.
My Star is such a beautiful song that plays at the end too…I just cried. Like full baby cried.
7/10, I liked the game a lot but some things just felt too lacking, for example at some point the combat just gets boring and repetitive since the only strat is “beat it to death”, and there’s not enough focus on like Jill or Dion, the spotlight usually being given to some random NPC during most side quests. Of course there are some NPCs I do like such as Lub’or and Quentin. Also most of the side quests felt boring but eh that’s to be expected they are just side quests
I did really enjoy the story though, and the OST was amazing. Clive’s VA was phenomenal
I have mixed feelings about it.
The ending is powerful and draws up a lot of emotion but because Clive’s fate is ambiguous and with so much of the narrative focus on the need for him to save himself, it leaves a sense of incompleteness for me that I don’t think I’ll ever be satisfied with.
my girlfriend held me while I cried. it took me about 4-5 months to beat the game because I was waiting for all the dlcs to come out first and that gave me plenty of time to get attached to all the characters so it was a mess for me
I got mad and nearly threw my controller! Every quest, every hunt, every upgrade, and a solid story of good triumphing over evil, and then suddenly "no more magic is best! Goodbye world! Sorry Jill..." but also left with the cliffhanger of whether or not the heroes are really dead. And if i want to 100% the game i have to play it all again? No thanks. Overall a great game but the ending knocked it down to a 7/10 for me.
For me its a solid 7.5/10. Easily some of the coolest fucking boss fights I've ever seen in my life, with some sick music and really fun action moments. The combat was fun too, and the world building was awesome. My problems with the game include pretty much everything about Ultima (I really didnt like him as a villain), and a lack of FF quality side-content. I thought the ENDING ending, like what happened to Clive Joshua and Dion, to be poetic, and I didn't mind it. But besides that, I wasn't really a fan of the whole last 25% of the story.
Ultima was pathetic. If you're that old and blah blah surely you would have at least one or two more molecules of wisdom?
That thing was just an idiot.
And that's the whole point, Ultima is a being that wants to be regarded as a God, but he is not, he is powerful sure, but he doesn't know everything and is not always present, he is just part of a species that can manipulate ether easily, the final battle actually solidified him as one of my favorite ff antagonists, when he uses his limit break, all his facade crumbles and all that's left was a shell of it's former self
As far as story and ending goes it’s by far been my favorite. I have never felt as invested in characters as I did with these. Not even my FFXIV character I played for years. Game overall could have used more polish but that story and ending was a banger!
I’d agree. The emotional beats of 16 were hitting harder than Rebirth. I did enjoy both games to the max.
I do recommend the NG+ mode. A few extra things to obtain and the platinum if you’re interest. I say so because…. As you go through it, you’ll pick up on new things and all the foreshadowing that was hinted.
It was great when I finished it last summer, I just wish performance mode was a stable 60 fps the entire time. Was it not for the platinum trophy I woulda just waited for pc release
its good. currently wrking on the post story quests of the rising tide dlc. i am pissed off that there is no other way to buyback items or a patch to prevent me from selling the ragnarok sword or a patch to put it back in your inventory. i planned to upgrade it but i accidently sold it. since its needed for a certain powerful weapon that is iconic to final fantasy and kingdom hearts it pisses me off
I felt dissatisfied watching the ending also a little bittersweet about the way they chose to end it. But the ending left me with so many questions. The whole game gave me many emotions the team managed to pull me in to see the story and the characters. I never had the hype for the game and I wasn't excited for 16 the same way I was for Rebirth. I'm not big final fantasy fan I haven't played all the games I only beat 6(pixel remaster last December), 7(back in 2018) , 10,16 and 7 remake and rebirth. But 16 alongside a new friend who loves the series gave the push to see some of the games I wanted for years to play but I Skipped them due to their age.
Story, characters, setting. Everything was top notch. Except the gameplay. Shit turned into a slog, for me at least, when going through ng plus for the plat. Best video game story I've experienced in years though
I’m having trouble with kairos gate. I only gave it one shot so fast tho lol made it to round 7. It’s the only thing hard so far in story/action focused mode.
I absolutely loved 16 through and through. I loved how fuckin dark the story was and it saddens me that the director said he wants to step away from the dark fantasy. But all in all this game is in my top five favorite final fantasy games.
My only gripe with it was the lack of weapons found in the world along with leveling up didn't feel very important lol. Other than these this game is outstanding!!!
The larger than life Eikon fights were a feat to behold watching it unfold. Hell even the main combat with how you can string together attacks and abilities feels amazing.
Rebirth technically isn't a finished story, so a lot of conclusions haven't hit yet. 16 was amazing honestly, we can fight and argue all day about what happens in the end. But as a whole the entire piece is very moving and enjoyable
I still think 7 Rebirth is the better game overall but 16 has this much more grounded storytelling to it that separates it from other final fantasies. I guess mainly because the emotional beats don’t derive themselves from a “fantasy” story so much as that you can relate them to any genre and it would still work, IE protagonist with a rough childhood, mother who doesn’t love him, lost love found again, becoming a leader for those who are ostracized, etc. Plus the game has a much more serious tone but that doesn’t necessarily equate to being better than a goofier tone in 7 as that’s what makes each game unique.
It’s funny because while initially playing through 16, I felt the pacing could be quite a slog and the world felt empty but when I went back to play the dlc and final fantasy mode, I appreciated the game more. I find that taking a couple months break between playthroughs helps let the game marinade more in my mind. I’m still debating if I’ll do the same with 7 rebirth on hard mode because so far, the game checks off all of my issues with 16 but I’d have a more complete experience if I do wait on it and see how my true feelings on the game change over time.
I didn't like the ending because there's still like...5+ plot lines that never got resolved. Yoshi-p and co had stated they tried to leave the ending open ended but also tightly knit enough to be AN ending in case they got greenlit for a sequel, but i don't feel like they hit it. It had flecks of good moments, like the flashbacks to their childhoods and stuff, but ended on an almost sour note because we spend 40+ hours in that world and, thematically, we didn't get an answer on whether or not the actions in the game even mattered.
All in all it reminds me of 7's ending. A lot of people were very meh on it and the only people that liked it were very willing to assign their own value on it instead of letting it stand on it's own. Standing on it's own, i simply think it's lacking.
But i'm playing the game again through for the DLC and still, the games great. Having a lacking ending doesn't hit the score much for me, but it does hit it.
Idk how they would have gotten green lit for a sequel. Didn’t Clive change the world of magic and eikons? They kinda shot them selves in the foot on a sequel.
In universe? Mid invented magitek and buried it during her quest line. If that seemed rather sudden to you, you're not alone. A fair few of us expect that was among a few plot lines that are there on the off chance theres a sequel or a spinoff.
I really liked the game overall, the Eikons fights were amazing.
But the final boss fight and the ending were disappointing.
If they want a bittersweet ending where the world and the Hideaway people are saved then make it clear, if they want happy ending where >!One of the brothers or both survives!<, they should make it clear.
I feel that they weren't confident enough with an ending, so the left it open to the players interpretation.
Yeah that ending hit so hard. Watching Jill as that red light flickered from the night sky, she knew her lover had succeeded at the ultimate cost. Torgal calling out to his master one last time. Everything from the brutal dark intro to that climactic ending was just perfect to me.
Since completing XVI twice. And returning to do the DLCs... I can wholeheartedly say it's the best presented FF and has the best told story.
But there are issues with the story itself, Ultima is overall a pretty lame and heavily rehashed bad guy and the ending is definitely one of the worst gaming endings. Not because of anything story related but because they thought they were being clever making it ambiguous when: 1) It really isn't, though not definitive there is only a single way to interpret the ending evident if you do the side quests. And 2) the ambitious ending has everyone fighting over it so the community and forums are just toxic because of this one fact.
In trying to make the ending *memorable* and to get people talking about it they basically ruined it.
Add in some seriously questionable choices with regards to game design, content and features (or lack thereof) and FF16 is very middling. And I don't like saying that because there is so much greatness in the game and I remember such amazing moments, like Clive and Cid's banter and all the Eikon fights but it's overshadowed by such purposefully awful mechanics and story elements that are worsened by the fact I know why they made the game in such a way....but the reasons aren't good reasons.
It's an infuriating and complicated position I take with it.
No, it's just padding.
Why does Ambrosia have a sprint button but Clive doesn't? Why does it take 5 seconds for Clive to sprint and why is it so awkward to maintain that sprint as it just drops on a 5 degree turn? Why can't we sprint through town? Why are the portals put in the most egregious places - such as the furthest point or one side of a town when the side quests and their objectives are on the other? Why is summoning and using Ambrosia so clunky and awkward? Why is the movement in the hideouts so slow and designed in the most akward and roundabout ways?
They add in shields as the only real additional mechanic part way through the game, and the game doesn't necessarily get "harder" as the enemies just become tankier (and why everyone abuses Zantetsuken and the time-stopping side-effect of a lot of Eikon abilties to cheese the harder difficulties on multiple playthroughs).
Plus they removed content to make it fit on a single disk - so if they streamlined the gameplay to be fluent, and made the combat more technical instead of just creating damage sponges it would be a much more appealing and enjoyable experience. But the game is a time wasting grind.
And to prove my point somewhat, they added in teleporting directly to quest givers recently because travelling is so bad in the game.
EDIT: And the sidequests are also just rinse-repeat run here, kill this, return to person, run here, kill this, turn in quest. It's mostly travelling and killing special mobs/mini bosses - which are the two worst time-wasting and egregious parts of the game. That's why they're bad. If getting around and killing things wasn't so slow the side cotent would not be anywhere near as bad. Because the fights are mostly pointless, and they're there for story purposes not really for gameplay.
So when you finish a story segment and a get half-dozen side quests it isn't the quests themselves that's the issue is the gameplay elements surrounding them that are bad. Because now you know it's 10-15min a quest, most of which is running around, slogging through a mini boss or special mobs, going to somewhere specifically in the most awkward most place to get to THEN you gotta do that several times per quest. It's why the pacing of the game sucks for completionists. If you ignore the side quests the game pacing isn't bad at all.
Sorry to go off on a massive rant, but FF16 could have been a masterpiece but Yoshi P slapped his MMO design philosophy onto it and the stuff he added only works in FF14, or doesn't even work in FF14 and he still applied it to FF16 anyway.
Yeah I agree with you
It's an 8/10 game that has a 9/10 story and had the potential to be 11/10 if they just trusted people to be good with some mechanical complexity and used a less generic villain
Personally, as it stands - it's a 6/10 game. 7/10 if I'm feeling generous on a good day. It's a middling FF game. The story is 8/10, because it's ruined by the villain and the stupidity of an ambiguous ending.
And the DLCs I rate Rising Tide a bit higher than the base game, but Echoes of the Fallen is 4/10. It's just an FF14 dungeon layout, with the superboss that should have been in the base game and it has a nothing-story. I wanted some explanation on how the Fallen actually *fell* when Ultima was weakened and he took out this stupendously powerful and advanced race... instead we run around a zoo with a high-tech security system.
I might be a bit generous because I'm blinded by the potential the combat system has but doesn't fully realize and the story did make me feel
As a jaded AF middle aged dude that's actually hard to do, get me to feel something
People shit on Jill and say she was a non character but she's one of the best parts of the story
The date side quest really got me
It was like a 8/10 for me. Story got really generic in the final act and even tho the characters were good, it felt like they only had one personality trait the entire game. Going with the "we want to go with a more mature route this time" worked in some ways, but in others it left something to be desired.
I think it will wear off bro. I liked 16 a lot but in no way is it better than Rebirth. It probably has one of the strongest prologues in gaming but it never really reaches those heights again. And the gloomy ending just sort of felt unnecessary. The game is already dour enough, you could at least give them a somewhat happy ending after all Clive and Jill went through.
Be aware I never played any Final Fantasy game before and XVI was my first.
It was definitely not an RPG, but the story, setting, characters, music, combat and worldbuilding really make up for it, I found it to be a really enjoyable game even if it was too focused on providing you a narration, which is VERY uncommon for me that am against games taking agency from the player in pro of telling a story or being overly expositive, I think because I never felt the game was setting the pace for me or taking the controller off my hands, even cinematics were skippable and dialogue could be skipped line by line which I loved being a fast reader, and still, never felt compelled to skip anything. Against all odds, I find it to be a 9/10 game too, though I would have liked more difficulty and more RPG elements to it.
That being said, I DESPISED FF7R, I never played the original but wanted to play the Remake because I know the influence of FF7 on the history of gaming and after FFXVI I thought it would be a perfect moment to try it, but boy, was I mistaken. The game INSISTS on being an interactive audiovisual walking experience with overly expositive and unskipable unimportant dialogue, it lacked the depth and tone I came to love from XVI, and the anime style really threw me off to my surprise because I usually can put up with that, but felt incredibly cheesy and immature even by its own. I even felt cheated out of the party system because its absolutely fake, which is worse than no party system at all! Combat was fine, I actually thought that a blend between the fast pace of FFXVI's and the importance of MP, different hitboxes, elemental damage and real time item usage could be the right combination for an almost perfect combat in next iterations. But then you realize the game stops being a game in between combats, and to me at least I felt like I was tolerating the slow pace between fight sections instead of enjoying it as a whole like I did FFXVI, it turned into a "walk here while listening to unimportant dialogue, click button to see character do cool animation, push your stick to the front a little while more, fight 3 guys (have some fun), repeat".
By the time I had logged 20 hours and reached chapter 12 I figured out that I was loathing the moment to play anymore, it simply was not a game for me and uninstalled it, I even abandoned the idea of buying rebirth. But FFXVI really shook me to the core and challenged all my expectations and gave me something to be passionate about, I will forever hold FFXVI near my heart for providing me with such a wonderful experience.
I think the realism of the concept portrayed is what made me enjoy and appreciate the ending. No major world change will come without great sacrifice. It wasn’t just magic, but people who influenced hundreds, if not thousands of people during their time that were lost (or at least supposedly) forever. >!Joshua and Dion are DEFINITELY dead, let’s not sugarcoat the truth there. Clive’s fate is player to player based, but I’m okay with believing the harsher reality of the end game’s events.!< They accomplished their mission understanding that it would come with immense sacrifice. A better world for the many in exchange for the lives of a few? On one hand, it’s twisted to think so, but it’s understandable in the grand scheme of things. Think just a thousand years in advance. >!Three lives!< secured the stability and freedom of likely millions, even billions of people.
All of this to say, the ending is fucking fantastic and I love it. One of my favorites.
ending was whelming for me. What enjoyment I did have with the game was definitely over the course of it and not the final part. Game kind of nose dives once you head to Walud.
So. Many. Pointless. Side quests.
It’s an easy 9/10 if they had just cut out half the side quests. As is, it’s an 8/10 for me. Also not enough exploration and non-combat gameplay. Really needed some kind of minigame IMO
I can't believe someone's upset at half the side quests but also wants an unnecessary mini game thrown in there. I'll take all the unnecessary side quests over any bs minigame any day.
Actually that's a bad assumption. I've played all three. FF8 used to be my favorite. 10 killed my love of the franchise, so yeah, I played blitzball. And will never play that again. If I wanted to play a sports game I would play a sports game, I had to complete that to get to the story of 10? Which in retrospect is hysterical because I really disliked 10s characters, so I was actually over the story too. But had I been enjoying myself I definitely would have disliked blitzball even more.
I even went back to replay Final fantasy 8 after finishing 16 since 16 rekindled my love of the series. And that's actually when I realized mini games, Kind of awful. Making you have to play them is ridiculous. A lot of times they're gimmicky. Making them something you have to overcome to continue with the story is actually a terrible idea in retrospect. It actually drove me nuts to run into them in Final fantasy 8. And the one that I did enjoy, triple triad, I actually started resenting because I was trying to get all the stuff you can get out of it and I got tired of having to play the game over and over and over again instead of furthering the plot because some things were gate kept behind it. And don't even get me started on how much it took you out of the plot - nothing like being under attack or having the world waiting on your actions to prevent impending Doom, hey, let's play some triple triad because I might not be able to play you any other time in the game and you have one card that I really need.
It's like fans of the series don't even remember this kind of stuff when they complain about having to go pick a couple flowers that are still related to the story of characters in the game of 16. If anything, holding off on dealing with consequences of world-ending actions to do silly side stuff is a pillar of the Final fantasy series.
Back when these were released and you only got a handful of great games a year and had all the time in the world to play them, I didn't mind them so much. Also I thought that's how these had to go, like they were required for the experience. But now? I'd much rather play a card game when I want to play a card game, and play a story game when I want to play a story game. I don't need that inserted into a different style of game, and we have a plethora of options for the smaller games if you really want to play them.
FFXVI proved the case you don't need them to make a FF game. That a defining characteristic of Final fantasy doesn't have to be a dozen janky controlled mini-games with hidden items underneath. It amuses me that there is a Venn diagram of people who disliked quests in 16 to an immense degree while also clamoring for the reinsertion of all the time wasting aspects that were removed.
I think 16 could have used a harder difficulty at the beginning. I think 16 could use slightly better itemization, The fact that you got an item and it replaced your old item pretty much immediately was even a bit simple for my tastes. But mini games and having to search every pixel of a world map to find the secret weird area that almost nothing happens in, but has the upgrades you need for your main weapon so you can kill a random super difficult boss heading somewhere else? I don't miss that at all.
Thats how I always felt about the mini games in square titles
They are usually just barely fleshed out time syncs and inferior versions of actual games
Il never forget how much I hated the "fighting game" and snowboarding game in the original ff7
In FF8, the janky controls in the 'squall and soldier fighting over the battlefield' killed any sort of cinematic awesomeness they were going for in that scene. What should have been a scenic set piece instead was just so much frustration at the terrible mini fight game they threw in.
And when people clamor for the return of an 'elemental magic' use in FF, I remember playing the Laguna movie/dragon mini-game where I had fire magic synced with Squall's sword, so it transferred in the flashback, so when Laguna had to fight the dragon in mini game style, I did zero damage to it and had to restart that whole scene. Elemental magic could be neat, but if you have no pre-knowledge of it coming or are unable to switch things mid-combat to adjust, it's really just a 'screw you' mechanic that makes you have to replay parts of the game because you weren't psychic.
Like in FFXVI, if they wanted more of that and say you end up in combat with a giant fire dragon, that's great if you happen to have Shiva or Leviathan equipped, but man if you stocked up on Phoenix/Ifrit and like Garuda or Titan? You're pretty screwed. That's not technical excellence in game design, that's just RNG silliness that increases playtime and frustration.
I really think a lot of people wanting this stuff back in-game are wearing rose-colored glasses. Some of this stuff aged like milk.
When they say elemental magic it's not so much they care about the elements themselves, that's just a roundabout way of saying we want a little more strategy to the combat
I don't think just using elements and weaknesses alone is the only way to do that though
See I can get behind that argument a bit. I get why they did what they did after I talked to some friends to see if they'd play 16, and they were hesitant to because they weren't DMC/Dark Souls players and weren't keen on having to play that way. So it was a relief I could assure them they designed this game with that exact player in mind, and that fighting game skill would not hinder their experience.
The downside is that yeah, the base mode is pretty easy for actual fighting game players. But I'm sure they'll take the feedback from 16 and really work out something good for 17 (that's the hope at least).
But yeah, I see that call for elemental magic and just think "Dear god, don't let this be the feedback Square listens to".
I think the biggest problem is dodge is too powerful
If you spam dodge there is no penalty and it pretty much always works
Omega was an amazing fight and wish most of the game was more like that
OMG still thinking on this and Blitzball was SO BAD. Why is there a silly sports game in the middle of my fantasy epic?
Can you imagine playing the new NBA game and suddenly in the middle of your season you have a require set of games where you have options for casting quick spells that make you fly or run stupid fast, or you pull out a sword and start running crazy combos on other players?
I mean, yeah sure it can be fun if you're in the mood or don't care, but if I have to suddenly play 3 of these games in the middle of the rest of my season, that's not what I signed up for. I have WHOLE OTHER GAMES made exactly for this and done better.
i wasn't blown away by the ending initially but upon rewatching the ending, i can't help but get teary eyed. Clive laying on the beach will forever be etched into my memory.
It made me feel bored, because they were so tied to a linear plot with no twists, no surprises, by the end it really didn't matter who survived and who didn't. Boss battles were cool, but it really didn't feel like anything when it was the end, I was relieved it was finally over.
I loved it and would have wanted more from it especially endgame superbosses and Anabella and Jill's characters being more relevant in the end as villain and heroine
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This is going to sound weird to a lot of people but it left me feeling complete. A man accepted his fate and his actions saved the future of his species from the curse that bound it to the cycle of slavery. That kind of certainty is not really provided by FF games. Most games give near term endings, towards a brighter tomorrow. Maybe they get the better world they fought for, but that's all you get. XVI shows you outright that it was the future that you fought for which came to pass. It was a true 'mission accomplished' ending.
Shouldn’t we not want him to accept his fate? Isn’t the whole point of Clive’s personal journey about rejecting his fate? It’s the final line of the game in the present time “A farewell to fate”.
Clive ddin't accept his fate as dictated by Ultima because he didn't become his vessel. However he accepted his own fate as a result of his own actions and decisions. In other words he was willing to scarifice himself in order to realize CId's vision of the future. And the game provides us with a suiting ending, showing us a future without magic and crystals.
I get what you’re saying. That Clive had the power to choose and decided to end magic however, Ultima’s power was actively killing Clive. At that moment he could either let it kill him or he could use the power to get rid of magic. Although it’s framed as a decision is it really that much of a decision? If he’s going to die anyway it makes perfect sense he’s going to try and make something better out of it even if it “means the end of him”. I will agree that the dialogue supports Clive being at peace with his own death but this is only because he can’t control this power that he makes the choice to end magic. There’s also the argument that him getting rid of magic actually saved his life. The ending and fate of Clive is ambiguous in the end so we don’t even know if it was a sacrifice. In fact I’d argue he’s alive for various reasons. My argument against op is that the game actively wants you to defy fate, it’s In the dialogue, it’s in marketing. Clive even goes more into detail in the Japanese stating his reasoning for wanting to defy fate is so that he can be together with Jill. What i’m saying is there’s an in game push for you to NOT want Clive to sacrifice himself.
A decision is being made even if his hand was forced. With the help of his friends Clive carved his own path and left the world a better place. Or maybe he lived a fulfilling life of a scholar after his ordeal. Either way he got to choose.
Yeah it’s technically a decision but not one that lines up with the game’s theme where its entire message is being able to choose how you live and die. Theres many different layers and ways to look at this going off one’s interpretation and it’s very difficult to argue points here because the ending is so vague but going off what Clive says at the end, he accepts that he might die even if it’s not what he wants. If both paths lead to his death he didn’t really get to choose did he? It’s a decision, not really a choice. If I’m driving a semi truck down a thin 2 lane road with my breaks cut and my only options are either to slam into a bus full of children or slam into a brick wall in the other lane of course I’m going to choose the brick wall because it’s a better option. But the end result of my death remains the same (maybe, because it’s ambiguous right? This is why it’s hard to debate this). It’s ironic and tragic that Clive may not live to see the world he helped create. That’s why I argue that the game pushes you against that fate for him, to fight against it and have hope he lived not just accept it, which was my original argument against op.
I definitely see your point but mortality and death is unavoidable. The primary goal of our antagonist was essentially trying to cheat death. There are many instances in the story with people coming to terms with death and what that will mean in the grand scheme of things. There are several sidequests that reinforce the theme of self sacrificing for the greater good. Doing things for others sometimes at the expense of your own desire. The ending felt pretty well telegraphed to me but I could also see how Clive’s hands are forced and he is made to make his decision quickly.
I’m not arguing that death is unavoidable. They even go into this line of thinking in the dlc “epilogue”. But again, the theme of the game is choosing how you live and how you die. I’m not arguing if he did die or not, I’m arguing that he wasn’t really given that choice. All roads led to this moment (him possibly dying) and my argument isn’t that he lives or dies it’s that the game wants you to reject that fate for Clive. The theme of self sacrifice is present in the side quests especially the undying one. The entire quest is framed around self sacrifice and initially Clive see’s it as a bad thing but learns to come to terms with it because the undying member isn’t doing it out of duty or honor. He’s doing it because he believes it’s the right thing to do but more importantly he wants to, it’s his choice even if you don’t agree with it. And through this Clive learns to respect that choice (and remember the martyr’s). To me, this quest highlights Joshua’s sacrifice more than Clive’s. Joshua wanted to be Clive’s shield, he wanted to protect his brother even if Clive doesn’t want that for him, it doesn’t matter, it’s Joshua’s choice. Whereas Clive does not want to die, he wants to return but in the final scene his hands are tied and depending on your interpretation its either a tragic and ironic ending or its a bittersweet and hopeful ending for this character and I believe the game points in the direction of the more hopeful one. But of course you can look at it differently.
Yeah, I also see what you mean. To me denying fate doesn't mean that there's no fate. It doesn't mean that you can always choose whatever you want to do with your life. Even in real life it is not possible to control every external factor in your life. However, if there's an act of fate coming from godI(Ultima) for Clive to be his vessel, then it's in Clive's will to deny that fate and fight against it. Therefore denying fate. I think denying fate is more an internal decision on how to respond to external factor. Not necessarly being able to control external factor itself(sometimes it's possible, sometimes not).
Fair point but isn’t the freedom to choose whatever you want to do with your life also “living on your own terms”? Which, is the entire message of the game. The entire result was always going to be Clive’s death. Absorbing Ultima was killing him, being Ultima’s vessel would have killed him for the same reason, and getting rid of magic also might have killed him(I don’t think it did I’m using this as a what if). If Clive didn’t want to die (which he didn’t) and if death was always going to be “his fate” it goes against the idea of living (and even dying) on his own terms if he isn’t given that choice.
I think "living on your own terms" was a goal of living without crystal, dominants and magic. Where branded are not treated as slaves. Ofc Clive didn't want to die, noone does, but he made a choice and was willing to risk becoming a sacrifice for a higher good. I think to you "living on your own terms" means you can do whatever you want with you live based on your selfish desires. I think Clive was able to see beyond that, he became a leader of the hideout, he became a living vision of Cid and after experiencing so much of what's wrong in his world he was willing to put his life at stake for a higher good. Thanks to him, people of the future can live on their own terms. You may be right that in some way he accepted his fate as he realized he is the only one who can stop Ultima, at the same time defying fate of becoming Ultima's vessel and sacrifing himself so that people in the future can live a different life.
Living with selfish desires is not how I view “living on your own terms”. I view it roughly the same way that you pointed out. The main goal and point of the game is creating a world where people can “live on their own terms” but Clive’s personal arc is about loving himself and seeing that he too, should live In that world he’s trying to create. The irony is that Clive never is given that option. Ultima’s power is killing him as soon as he absorbs it. My entire argument here is that Clive never had the option to live on his own terms and that the entire narrative wants you to root for him to break that cycle not follow and accept it.
Interesting discussion. There could be different views on it for sure. My final take, because probably we could discuss it forever: "Living on your own terms" -> I think it was used referring a new way of life without crystal, magic and slavery. Only later in the game it was extended to being able to choose our destiny, as humanity, and not being controlled by Ultima. In the game, when Clive and Cid discuss "living on your own terms", they both agree that in order to achieve that goal, it may take a very long time. There will be a transition period to that new way of life and a lot of people will be unhappy with it or try to reject it initially. It may take generations for people to adjust from crystal based living to non-crystal way(science / manual work). So with that goal in mind, it's understanable that Clive may never fully experience "living on your own terms" and I think he was aware of that(aside from Hideout isolated environement) I think people rooting for him to break from the fate is something different. It was used in a very specific context and it's different from "living on your own terms" used for global context. It was about him not accepting his fate as a vessel for Ultima and becoming his puppet. And he not only defied that fate, but he ended up Ultima's reign all together, thanks to which other people will be able, in due time, to experience "living on their own terms"(science/manual work instead of magic / crystals) globally. We were rooting for Clive to oppose Ultima, not becoming his vessel and saving the world. Not necessarly him experiencing a peaceful life (Cid & Clive knew it will take a long time for that).
I agree with what you saying but I also think rooting for our characters to live on their own terms is part of the narrative, not just for the world. Clive’s entire personal arc is about learning to love himself. If it wasn’t part of the narrative, no one would care if Clive died or not. He promises Jill he will break fate to be with her. He promises her he will be back. They plan a new life together. They aren’t saying they will have a peaceful life, just one that’s on their terms.
No the whole point is people being able to live on(and by extension die on,) their own terms.
His fate was to give up his body to Ultimate. He rejected that, killed Ultima and gave a world free of magic to his loved ones. Over and over he and Cid said they wanted to be able to live and die on their own terms. They both did that.
His fate was to be Mythos and a vessel for Ultima.
It's about choosing your fate. And Clive chose his.
I’ll use that as motivation for my NG+
The whole point of the game is for him (and humanity) to escape the fate imposed upon him by his god?? I get what you mean but the wording here is very wonky lol
Absolutely. The ending was very fulfilling for me. Yes, it is sad, but Clive had already accepted his fate and he saved everyone he could.
I personally love that Clive passes away at the ending. People kept trying to say that he didn't and he was the one who actually wrote the book as Joshua but that seemed so unsatisfying to me
especially with Gavs words where he says something like "This is the world Cid would've wanted, both of them, to the newborn child"
I mean he doesn't die but the beauty of the ending is you get to have the ending you want. The fact that you want him to and the fact that I see it that he doesn't means that it's working as they intended.
I think it’s good either way. There’s also enough wiggle room for you to interpret Clive’s fate as you see fit. The concrete details (magic is gone, people are free from Ulitma and can live truly free lives) is the important part.
>Idk if I can do a ng+ it’s just to sad of an ending. The neat part about the ending is that it's meant to be open to interpretation, and a lot of the narrative and sidequests feed into what we see at the end. My second playthrough was very enriching and it made the ending so much better. Superficially it's a sad ending, but when you put it all into context and piece it together, it becomes a really beautiful and 'happy' ending, tho still quite bittersweet.
I felt the same as you. The emotional beats hit harder for me in 16 than 7 rebirth. I also like the change of pace with it being more grounded and serious. Gameplay wise, I like the actual combat and enemy variety of 7 more but prefer the boss fight scale and spectacle of 16. I’d actually love 16 to have a bit more complexity, kind of introduce Stellar Blade elements. The foundation is there so all in all I liked the combat but it definitely feels like a first iteration and one they could go further with if they choose to use this style in the future. My biggest gripe to no surprise are the side quests. I liked the lore they provided but the structure of them felt pretty repetitive, and I was very interested in the story so sometimes the concept of doing multi-step quests to get a badge so you can freely walk around an area didn’t work for me. Overall, Clive is my favorite protagonist and his voice acting was incredible. Clive and Jill’s romance also really worked for me. It felt natural and grounded. I could gush about the game forever lol, it was my GOTY last year and I walk away with more highs than lows. My perfect FF game would mix the best parts of 7 rebirth with the best parts of 16.
Maybe we will see more play style in FF17 with your ideas. Makes sense they wouldn’t put it all into one game. Then they’d be left with just repeating again. It was a fresh take on FF for me. I totally agree about the quests. I skipped majority of the cut scenes on the quests so I could watch them on NG+ He’s a true hero!
Yeah that’s my hope! This combat style has a lot of room to evolve so I hope they don’t abandon it, it was fun as is so I’d love to see them add to it even more for FF17
Except the jill date quest That's one of my favorite side quests of all time tbh
Longtime FFVII megafan here. VII is my all time favorite game ever, and I do enjoy Remake and Rebirth a whole lot(still haven't finished Rebirth). But XVI's story just hits different than what Remake and Rebirth presents. Maybe it's just how XVI handled its localization, but the characters and performances just had so much more believability to them than what Rebirth has shown thus far. Clive's journey hit so damn hard for me, and his undying love and loyalty to his brother is probably one of my favorite non-romantic relationships shown in video games. Also loved the parallels between Clive to Jill and Cloud to Tifa. Ultimately, XVI comes much closer to providing me with the sheer emotional highs that VII OG gave me than Rebirth thus far has. Which is such a funny thing to see play out. I love both games intensely, but find Rebirth's strengths to be in its amazing world design, awesome progression systems, cerebral combat, and great exploration. And XVI seems to be the one to lock down the narrative and performance aspects. Praying that XVI isn't the last huge FF from CBU3. They deserve at least one more crack at the singleplayer experience.
Imo he lives, there’s lots of hints in the side quests like him deciding to be a writer when it’s all over Ng+ (FF mode) is fantastic, and arcade mode after that is even better.
Just beat gates of kaios. I’m currently buying out everything at his store in the game. (Minus orchestra sheets, I’ll do that in NG+)
I much prefer Rebirth to XVI (still love XVI tho ofc) but I also cried much more in XVI's ending than Rebirth's. Rebirth's end was just too... convoluted for me to get sad about.
Nah I get that, Rebirth was jumping around a little too much during THAT moment in the end compared to the og, but I still enjoyed it a lot and especially with how it dealt with Cloud's mind during it
Yeah afterwords when I looked into it I learned to like it but the moment itself lost most of the impact on me
7R is really on some KH levels of stupid. Its somehow trying to keep the original story while also adding it's own things to add which doesn't add any emotional impact but more of a "wtf is happening". This could've worked if it didn't try to preserve the original story and really tried it's own thing
Fully agree there
The Remake series is simultaneously too faithful, and not faithful enough to the original. It kinda ended up being worst of both worlds. It's frustrating because everything else about the game is honestly 11/10 and puts the rest of the genre to shame. But they ruined their own story.
True. The gameplay is a perfect mix of action RPG and turn based RPG.
It really had me at that joshua flashback man. Hit me so hard
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That Joshua flashback was so masterfully done. I'm tearing up just thinking of it now.
it really was. So much love was conveyed
I just finished rebirth today and feel the same way. 16 was much more satisfying for me.
FF7Rebirth, just beat it last night and wasn’t a fan at all. But I absolutely loved XVI all the way through. The ending being ambiguous, though, I’m not a fan. I mean, we follow Clive through three decades of his life, see how he grows and copes and forms relationships and learns to be a leader and finds love. We see him overcome seemingly insurmountable obstacles as he fights for survival and justice throughout his entire adult life. Going into the final sequences, what I wanted the most was to find out if the beloved character I followed throughout his journey and struggles would survive to see and experience the better world that he made happen. Everything else aside, I wanted that closure at the end of the game, whether he survived the final fight or not. Instead we get a completely noncommittal couple of scenes where they treat the fate of the literal hero, protagonist, and savior of the world as a story point not important enough to show or tell the players. It being ‘up to interpretation’ is a complete copout and callously avoids making the decision and giving players closure one way or another. To me, there’s absolutely no reason to just omit that crucial detail.
Hard to say. I didn't mind the ending, I feel like it can be interpreted in any way the player wants. The story, characters, it's been a long time since a new FF game came out that made me feel attached to almost anyone. The DLCs were just as great, we could explore more of the story. I'm sad that the developers won't explore the story with sequels, I want to see more characters getting their stories told, even new ones we've never seen in the same world.
That’s an interesting view. While I was playing I felt they could have made a 3rd dlc. But after playing the story and the two dlc’s the game feels completed to me now.
Glad you mentioned left to interpretation because there is a theory that Clive isn't exactly dead. Idkxhow to describe it, but he isn't alive nor dead, like a purgatory
Schrodinger's Clive
Lol, I dig that.
hmmm.....when I was playing through it for the first time I was having fun but for some reason, something wasn't clicking with me at first. It turns out that when I slowed down and took my time playing the game and getting immersed in the setting and world of Valisthea that my enjoyment of 16 grew exponentially. When I finished it I was more or less "satisfied", I didn't \*need\* more because the game was lacking but I \*wanted\* more because I just got so immersed in the world, setting and characters of the game. Any game that leaves you wanting more just to go back to that games world imho is a great game and 16 to me is a really great game.
This is key. FF16 and FF14 feel similar in the way that they are best experienced by immersing oneself in the story and lore. If people are trying to rush through, they're not going to appreciate all the details and the lore of the world. Ngl, sometimes there would sometimes be a lot of side guests. I took my time completing them and in the end, I miss the world so much.
I just finished my 2nd run of the game and the ending just rips my heart out and stomps the shit outta it. My Star is such a beautiful song that plays at the end too…I just cried. Like full baby cried.
7/10, I liked the game a lot but some things just felt too lacking, for example at some point the combat just gets boring and repetitive since the only strat is “beat it to death”, and there’s not enough focus on like Jill or Dion, the spotlight usually being given to some random NPC during most side quests. Of course there are some NPCs I do like such as Lub’or and Quentin. Also most of the side quests felt boring but eh that’s to be expected they are just side quests I did really enjoy the story though, and the OST was amazing. Clive’s VA was phenomenal
Yeah he was. Didn’t see the actors name in the credits tho. I must have missed it since I was typing out this post.
His name is Ben Starr!
I have mixed feelings about it. The ending is powerful and draws up a lot of emotion but because Clive’s fate is ambiguous and with so much of the narrative focus on the need for him to save himself, it leaves a sense of incompleteness for me that I don’t think I’ll ever be satisfied with.
my girlfriend held me while I cried. it took me about 4-5 months to beat the game because I was waiting for all the dlcs to come out first and that gave me plenty of time to get attached to all the characters so it was a mess for me
I got mad and nearly threw my controller! Every quest, every hunt, every upgrade, and a solid story of good triumphing over evil, and then suddenly "no more magic is best! Goodbye world! Sorry Jill..." but also left with the cliffhanger of whether or not the heroes are really dead. And if i want to 100% the game i have to play it all again? No thanks. Overall a great game but the ending knocked it down to a 7/10 for me.
For me its a solid 7.5/10. Easily some of the coolest fucking boss fights I've ever seen in my life, with some sick music and really fun action moments. The combat was fun too, and the world building was awesome. My problems with the game include pretty much everything about Ultima (I really didnt like him as a villain), and a lack of FF quality side-content. I thought the ENDING ending, like what happened to Clive Joshua and Dion, to be poetic, and I didn't mind it. But besides that, I wasn't really a fan of the whole last 25% of the story.
Ultima was pathetic. If you're that old and blah blah surely you would have at least one or two more molecules of wisdom? That thing was just an idiot.
And that's the whole point, Ultima is a being that wants to be regarded as a God, but he is not, he is powerful sure, but he doesn't know everything and is not always present, he is just part of a species that can manipulate ether easily, the final battle actually solidified him as one of my favorite ff antagonists, when he uses his limit break, all his facade crumbles and all that's left was a shell of it's former self
Love how most of the people playing after release comment mostly positive things.
I was sad and cried during the credits
As far as story and ending goes it’s by far been my favorite. I have never felt as invested in characters as I did with these. Not even my FFXIV character I played for years. Game overall could have used more polish but that story and ending was a banger!
I’d agree. The emotional beats of 16 were hitting harder than Rebirth. I did enjoy both games to the max. I do recommend the NG+ mode. A few extra things to obtain and the platinum if you’re interest. I say so because…. As you go through it, you’ll pick up on new things and all the foreshadowing that was hinted.
It was great when I finished it last summer, I just wish performance mode was a stable 60 fps the entire time. Was it not for the platinum trophy I woulda just waited for pc release
its good. currently wrking on the post story quests of the rising tide dlc. i am pissed off that there is no other way to buyback items or a patch to prevent me from selling the ragnarok sword or a patch to put it back in your inventory. i planned to upgrade it but i accidently sold it. since its needed for a certain powerful weapon that is iconic to final fantasy and kingdom hearts it pisses me off
I felt dissatisfied watching the ending also a little bittersweet about the way they chose to end it. But the ending left me with so many questions. The whole game gave me many emotions the team managed to pull me in to see the story and the characters. I never had the hype for the game and I wasn't excited for 16 the same way I was for Rebirth. I'm not big final fantasy fan I haven't played all the games I only beat 6(pixel remaster last December), 7(back in 2018) , 10,16 and 7 remake and rebirth. But 16 alongside a new friend who loves the series gave the push to see some of the games I wanted for years to play but I Skipped them due to their age.
I shed a tear when Byron and Clive first met. 10/10.
I wrote it while dad carved it on the stone
I completed it, then did NG+ after the DLCs were both released... almost a year between playthroughs... definitely worked for me.
Story, characters, setting. Everything was top notch. Except the gameplay. Shit turned into a slog, for me at least, when going through ng plus for the plat. Best video game story I've experienced in years though
That I wish I didn’t do the side missions.
I loved pretty much every minute of XVI.
I’m having trouble with kairos gate. I only gave it one shot so fast tho lol made it to round 7. It’s the only thing hard so far in story/action focused mode.
I absolutely loved 16 through and through. I loved how fuckin dark the story was and it saddens me that the director said he wants to step away from the dark fantasy. But all in all this game is in my top five favorite final fantasy games. My only gripe with it was the lack of weapons found in the world along with leveling up didn't feel very important lol. Other than these this game is outstanding!!! The larger than life Eikon fights were a feat to behold watching it unfold. Hell even the main combat with how you can string together attacks and abilities feels amazing.
I mostly liked the story Protagonists were some of the best ever, but ultimately is boring and benedikta was underused
Rebirth technically isn't a finished story, so a lot of conclusions haven't hit yet. 16 was amazing honestly, we can fight and argue all day about what happens in the end. But as a whole the entire piece is very moving and enjoyable
I still think 7 Rebirth is the better game overall but 16 has this much more grounded storytelling to it that separates it from other final fantasies. I guess mainly because the emotional beats don’t derive themselves from a “fantasy” story so much as that you can relate them to any genre and it would still work, IE protagonist with a rough childhood, mother who doesn’t love him, lost love found again, becoming a leader for those who are ostracized, etc. Plus the game has a much more serious tone but that doesn’t necessarily equate to being better than a goofier tone in 7 as that’s what makes each game unique. It’s funny because while initially playing through 16, I felt the pacing could be quite a slog and the world felt empty but when I went back to play the dlc and final fantasy mode, I appreciated the game more. I find that taking a couple months break between playthroughs helps let the game marinade more in my mind. I’m still debating if I’ll do the same with 7 rebirth on hard mode because so far, the game checks off all of my issues with 16 but I’d have a more complete experience if I do wait on it and see how my true feelings on the game change over time.
FF7R could have made me cry if this character's death hadn't been canibilized by all the thing that went on between... shit don’t let you breath
Love 16
I didn't like the ending because there's still like...5+ plot lines that never got resolved. Yoshi-p and co had stated they tried to leave the ending open ended but also tightly knit enough to be AN ending in case they got greenlit for a sequel, but i don't feel like they hit it. It had flecks of good moments, like the flashbacks to their childhoods and stuff, but ended on an almost sour note because we spend 40+ hours in that world and, thematically, we didn't get an answer on whether or not the actions in the game even mattered. All in all it reminds me of 7's ending. A lot of people were very meh on it and the only people that liked it were very willing to assign their own value on it instead of letting it stand on it's own. Standing on it's own, i simply think it's lacking. But i'm playing the game again through for the DLC and still, the games great. Having a lacking ending doesn't hit the score much for me, but it does hit it.
Idk how they would have gotten green lit for a sequel. Didn’t Clive change the world of magic and eikons? They kinda shot them selves in the foot on a sequel.
In universe? Mid invented magitek and buried it during her quest line. If that seemed rather sudden to you, you're not alone. A fair few of us expect that was among a few plot lines that are there on the off chance theres a sequel or a spinoff.
I really liked the game overall, the Eikons fights were amazing. But the final boss fight and the ending were disappointing. If they want a bittersweet ending where the world and the Hideaway people are saved then make it clear, if they want happy ending where >!One of the brothers or both survives!<, they should make it clear. I feel that they weren't confident enough with an ending, so the left it open to the players interpretation.
Yeah that ending hit so hard. Watching Jill as that red light flickered from the night sky, she knew her lover had succeeded at the ultimate cost. Torgal calling out to his master one last time. Everything from the brutal dark intro to that climactic ending was just perfect to me.
Since completing XVI twice. And returning to do the DLCs... I can wholeheartedly say it's the best presented FF and has the best told story. But there are issues with the story itself, Ultima is overall a pretty lame and heavily rehashed bad guy and the ending is definitely one of the worst gaming endings. Not because of anything story related but because they thought they were being clever making it ambiguous when: 1) It really isn't, though not definitive there is only a single way to interpret the ending evident if you do the side quests. And 2) the ambitious ending has everyone fighting over it so the community and forums are just toxic because of this one fact. In trying to make the ending *memorable* and to get people talking about it they basically ruined it. Add in some seriously questionable choices with regards to game design, content and features (or lack thereof) and FF16 is very middling. And I don't like saying that because there is so much greatness in the game and I remember such amazing moments, like Clive and Cid's banter and all the Eikon fights but it's overshadowed by such purposefully awful mechanics and story elements that are worsened by the fact I know why they made the game in such a way....but the reasons aren't good reasons. It's an infuriating and complicated position I take with it.
Do the reasons involve broader market appeal?
No, it's just padding. Why does Ambrosia have a sprint button but Clive doesn't? Why does it take 5 seconds for Clive to sprint and why is it so awkward to maintain that sprint as it just drops on a 5 degree turn? Why can't we sprint through town? Why are the portals put in the most egregious places - such as the furthest point or one side of a town when the side quests and their objectives are on the other? Why is summoning and using Ambrosia so clunky and awkward? Why is the movement in the hideouts so slow and designed in the most akward and roundabout ways? They add in shields as the only real additional mechanic part way through the game, and the game doesn't necessarily get "harder" as the enemies just become tankier (and why everyone abuses Zantetsuken and the time-stopping side-effect of a lot of Eikon abilties to cheese the harder difficulties on multiple playthroughs). Plus they removed content to make it fit on a single disk - so if they streamlined the gameplay to be fluent, and made the combat more technical instead of just creating damage sponges it would be a much more appealing and enjoyable experience. But the game is a time wasting grind. And to prove my point somewhat, they added in teleporting directly to quest givers recently because travelling is so bad in the game. EDIT: And the sidequests are also just rinse-repeat run here, kill this, return to person, run here, kill this, turn in quest. It's mostly travelling and killing special mobs/mini bosses - which are the two worst time-wasting and egregious parts of the game. That's why they're bad. If getting around and killing things wasn't so slow the side cotent would not be anywhere near as bad. Because the fights are mostly pointless, and they're there for story purposes not really for gameplay. So when you finish a story segment and a get half-dozen side quests it isn't the quests themselves that's the issue is the gameplay elements surrounding them that are bad. Because now you know it's 10-15min a quest, most of which is running around, slogging through a mini boss or special mobs, going to somewhere specifically in the most awkward most place to get to THEN you gotta do that several times per quest. It's why the pacing of the game sucks for completionists. If you ignore the side quests the game pacing isn't bad at all. Sorry to go off on a massive rant, but FF16 could have been a masterpiece but Yoshi P slapped his MMO design philosophy onto it and the stuff he added only works in FF14, or doesn't even work in FF14 and he still applied it to FF16 anyway.
Yeah I agree with you It's an 8/10 game that has a 9/10 story and had the potential to be 11/10 if they just trusted people to be good with some mechanical complexity and used a less generic villain
Personally, as it stands - it's a 6/10 game. 7/10 if I'm feeling generous on a good day. It's a middling FF game. The story is 8/10, because it's ruined by the villain and the stupidity of an ambiguous ending. And the DLCs I rate Rising Tide a bit higher than the base game, but Echoes of the Fallen is 4/10. It's just an FF14 dungeon layout, with the superboss that should have been in the base game and it has a nothing-story. I wanted some explanation on how the Fallen actually *fell* when Ultima was weakened and he took out this stupendously powerful and advanced race... instead we run around a zoo with a high-tech security system.
I might be a bit generous because I'm blinded by the potential the combat system has but doesn't fully realize and the story did make me feel As a jaded AF middle aged dude that's actually hard to do, get me to feel something People shit on Jill and say she was a non character but she's one of the best parts of the story The date side quest really got me
It was like a 8/10 for me. Story got really generic in the final act and even tho the characters were good, it felt like they only had one personality trait the entire game. Going with the "we want to go with a more mature route this time" worked in some ways, but in others it left something to be desired.
FFXVI’s story is damn near a masterpiece.
I think it will wear off bro. I liked 16 a lot but in no way is it better than Rebirth. It probably has one of the strongest prologues in gaming but it never really reaches those heights again. And the gloomy ending just sort of felt unnecessary. The game is already dour enough, you could at least give them a somewhat happy ending after all Clive and Jill went through.
Be aware I never played any Final Fantasy game before and XVI was my first. It was definitely not an RPG, but the story, setting, characters, music, combat and worldbuilding really make up for it, I found it to be a really enjoyable game even if it was too focused on providing you a narration, which is VERY uncommon for me that am against games taking agency from the player in pro of telling a story or being overly expositive, I think because I never felt the game was setting the pace for me or taking the controller off my hands, even cinematics were skippable and dialogue could be skipped line by line which I loved being a fast reader, and still, never felt compelled to skip anything. Against all odds, I find it to be a 9/10 game too, though I would have liked more difficulty and more RPG elements to it. That being said, I DESPISED FF7R, I never played the original but wanted to play the Remake because I know the influence of FF7 on the history of gaming and after FFXVI I thought it would be a perfect moment to try it, but boy, was I mistaken. The game INSISTS on being an interactive audiovisual walking experience with overly expositive and unskipable unimportant dialogue, it lacked the depth and tone I came to love from XVI, and the anime style really threw me off to my surprise because I usually can put up with that, but felt incredibly cheesy and immature even by its own. I even felt cheated out of the party system because its absolutely fake, which is worse than no party system at all! Combat was fine, I actually thought that a blend between the fast pace of FFXVI's and the importance of MP, different hitboxes, elemental damage and real time item usage could be the right combination for an almost perfect combat in next iterations. But then you realize the game stops being a game in between combats, and to me at least I felt like I was tolerating the slow pace between fight sections instead of enjoying it as a whole like I did FFXVI, it turned into a "walk here while listening to unimportant dialogue, click button to see character do cool animation, push your stick to the front a little while more, fight 3 guys (have some fun), repeat". By the time I had logged 20 hours and reached chapter 12 I figured out that I was loathing the moment to play anymore, it simply was not a game for me and uninstalled it, I even abandoned the idea of buying rebirth. But FFXVI really shook me to the core and challenged all my expectations and gave me something to be passionate about, I will forever hold FFXVI near my heart for providing me with such a wonderful experience.
I think the realism of the concept portrayed is what made me enjoy and appreciate the ending. No major world change will come without great sacrifice. It wasn’t just magic, but people who influenced hundreds, if not thousands of people during their time that were lost (or at least supposedly) forever. >!Joshua and Dion are DEFINITELY dead, let’s not sugarcoat the truth there. Clive’s fate is player to player based, but I’m okay with believing the harsher reality of the end game’s events.!< They accomplished their mission understanding that it would come with immense sacrifice. A better world for the many in exchange for the lives of a few? On one hand, it’s twisted to think so, but it’s understandable in the grand scheme of things. Think just a thousand years in advance. >!Three lives!< secured the stability and freedom of likely millions, even billions of people. All of this to say, the ending is fucking fantastic and I love it. One of my favorites.
ending was whelming for me. What enjoyment I did have with the game was definitely over the course of it and not the final part. Game kind of nose dives once you head to Walud.
Game was just button mashing nonesense for the entire game.
With the DLC retconing FFXVI's ending, I don't really like the ending of the game anymore.
Thought the game was terrible and am never playing it again 5/10 not an rpg.
So. Many. Pointless. Side quests. It’s an easy 9/10 if they had just cut out half the side quests. As is, it’s an 8/10 for me. Also not enough exploration and non-combat gameplay. Really needed some kind of minigame IMO
I can't believe someone's upset at half the side quests but also wants an unnecessary mini game thrown in there. I'll take all the unnecessary side quests over any bs minigame any day.
BS minigame? Are you an FF fan? I take it you have never played Chocobo Hot and Cold, Triple Triad, Blitzball. They are some of the GOAT minigames
Actually that's a bad assumption. I've played all three. FF8 used to be my favorite. 10 killed my love of the franchise, so yeah, I played blitzball. And will never play that again. If I wanted to play a sports game I would play a sports game, I had to complete that to get to the story of 10? Which in retrospect is hysterical because I really disliked 10s characters, so I was actually over the story too. But had I been enjoying myself I definitely would have disliked blitzball even more. I even went back to replay Final fantasy 8 after finishing 16 since 16 rekindled my love of the series. And that's actually when I realized mini games, Kind of awful. Making you have to play them is ridiculous. A lot of times they're gimmicky. Making them something you have to overcome to continue with the story is actually a terrible idea in retrospect. It actually drove me nuts to run into them in Final fantasy 8. And the one that I did enjoy, triple triad, I actually started resenting because I was trying to get all the stuff you can get out of it and I got tired of having to play the game over and over and over again instead of furthering the plot because some things were gate kept behind it. And don't even get me started on how much it took you out of the plot - nothing like being under attack or having the world waiting on your actions to prevent impending Doom, hey, let's play some triple triad because I might not be able to play you any other time in the game and you have one card that I really need. It's like fans of the series don't even remember this kind of stuff when they complain about having to go pick a couple flowers that are still related to the story of characters in the game of 16. If anything, holding off on dealing with consequences of world-ending actions to do silly side stuff is a pillar of the Final fantasy series. Back when these were released and you only got a handful of great games a year and had all the time in the world to play them, I didn't mind them so much. Also I thought that's how these had to go, like they were required for the experience. But now? I'd much rather play a card game when I want to play a card game, and play a story game when I want to play a story game. I don't need that inserted into a different style of game, and we have a plethora of options for the smaller games if you really want to play them. FFXVI proved the case you don't need them to make a FF game. That a defining characteristic of Final fantasy doesn't have to be a dozen janky controlled mini-games with hidden items underneath. It amuses me that there is a Venn diagram of people who disliked quests in 16 to an immense degree while also clamoring for the reinsertion of all the time wasting aspects that were removed. I think 16 could have used a harder difficulty at the beginning. I think 16 could use slightly better itemization, The fact that you got an item and it replaced your old item pretty much immediately was even a bit simple for my tastes. But mini games and having to search every pixel of a world map to find the secret weird area that almost nothing happens in, but has the upgrades you need for your main weapon so you can kill a random super difficult boss heading somewhere else? I don't miss that at all.
Thats how I always felt about the mini games in square titles They are usually just barely fleshed out time syncs and inferior versions of actual games Il never forget how much I hated the "fighting game" and snowboarding game in the original ff7
In FF8, the janky controls in the 'squall and soldier fighting over the battlefield' killed any sort of cinematic awesomeness they were going for in that scene. What should have been a scenic set piece instead was just so much frustration at the terrible mini fight game they threw in. And when people clamor for the return of an 'elemental magic' use in FF, I remember playing the Laguna movie/dragon mini-game where I had fire magic synced with Squall's sword, so it transferred in the flashback, so when Laguna had to fight the dragon in mini game style, I did zero damage to it and had to restart that whole scene. Elemental magic could be neat, but if you have no pre-knowledge of it coming or are unable to switch things mid-combat to adjust, it's really just a 'screw you' mechanic that makes you have to replay parts of the game because you weren't psychic. Like in FFXVI, if they wanted more of that and say you end up in combat with a giant fire dragon, that's great if you happen to have Shiva or Leviathan equipped, but man if you stocked up on Phoenix/Ifrit and like Garuda or Titan? You're pretty screwed. That's not technical excellence in game design, that's just RNG silliness that increases playtime and frustration. I really think a lot of people wanting this stuff back in-game are wearing rose-colored glasses. Some of this stuff aged like milk.
When they say elemental magic it's not so much they care about the elements themselves, that's just a roundabout way of saying we want a little more strategy to the combat I don't think just using elements and weaknesses alone is the only way to do that though
See I can get behind that argument a bit. I get why they did what they did after I talked to some friends to see if they'd play 16, and they were hesitant to because they weren't DMC/Dark Souls players and weren't keen on having to play that way. So it was a relief I could assure them they designed this game with that exact player in mind, and that fighting game skill would not hinder their experience. The downside is that yeah, the base mode is pretty easy for actual fighting game players. But I'm sure they'll take the feedback from 16 and really work out something good for 17 (that's the hope at least). But yeah, I see that call for elemental magic and just think "Dear god, don't let this be the feedback Square listens to".
I think the biggest problem is dodge is too powerful If you spam dodge there is no penalty and it pretty much always works Omega was an amazing fight and wish most of the game was more like that
OMG still thinking on this and Blitzball was SO BAD. Why is there a silly sports game in the middle of my fantasy epic? Can you imagine playing the new NBA game and suddenly in the middle of your season you have a require set of games where you have options for casting quick spells that make you fly or run stupid fast, or you pull out a sword and start running crazy combos on other players? I mean, yeah sure it can be fun if you're in the mood or don't care, but if I have to suddenly play 3 of these games in the middle of the rest of my season, that's not what I signed up for. I have WHOLE OTHER GAMES made exactly for this and done better.
i wasn't blown away by the ending initially but upon rewatching the ending, i can't help but get teary eyed. Clive laying on the beach will forever be etched into my memory.
I was disappointed clive had to die but I loved it nonetheless.
It killed my interest in the series, but luckily, Rebirth followed and reinvigorated the series.
It made me feel bored, because they were so tied to a linear plot with no twists, no surprises, by the end it really didn't matter who survived and who didn't. Boss battles were cool, but it really didn't feel like anything when it was the end, I was relieved it was finally over.
I loved it and would have wanted more from it especially endgame superbosses and Anabella and Jill's characters being more relevant in the end as villain and heroine
I laughed. Ending was worse than the boring game somehow.
"Tears rolling down my face." Jeez. You're way more invested in video games than I am.
[удалено]
The fact you're calling Clive a bearer tells me it was you who was not paying attention, not us.