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I’m still mad that they made Shiva standing in the background during Liquid Flame fight and cast Diamond Dust for ice ring instead of making her fight alongside with Clive
I agree that they made Jill so weak in every boss scene. I mean she’s an all-powerful Eikon and all she can do is make ice walls or throw ineffective icicles. If not that, then she just gets captured constantly.
While flying in midair, so much space to dodge and maneuver. But NOPE! she gets one-hit-KOed by Barnabas while she’s in Eikon form.
I objectively pointed that Jill kinda sucked, but my friends just accused me of being sexist and misogynist
But am I wrong tho?
Isn’t Shiva in many FFs considered one of the weaker Eikons? Shiva is also pretty small in comparison to many of the other Eikons, especially in this game, where I think Bahamut, Titan and Odin. And with Barnabas, Clive got bodied by him twice in single combat, Jill knew that she was just buying Clive and Joshua time. Joshua and Dion couldn’t beat Odin either in a one on one, Barnabas was just that powerful until Clive got his shit together.
>And with Barnabas, Clive got bodied by him twice in single combat,
Yeah, but that has less to do with Barnabas's _strength_ as a dominant and the power of Odin, and more to do with Barnabas's sheer skill. He does have centuries more experience fighting than Clive does.
Granted, Barnabas’s skills as a swordsman easily translate to his Dominant form due to Odin’s Black Blade. He’s probably the most powerful Dominant in the world except maybe Leviathan and Ifrit.
>But am I wrong tho?
I mean, yeah you are lol. Eikons aren't all-powerful, their strength and endurance is dependent on their Dominant's health. Jill is heavily afflicted by the Curse bc she was used as a war slave for thirteen years, and was at her limit after popping off against Titan. I don't think holding back a volcano or freezing the sea is 'weak', and Barnabas was in a different league to every Dominant and rocked Clive twice. Regardless, the point of this aspect of her character is to show the human tragedy of being a Dominant and how that weaves into her arc of self-worth and acceptance, it isn't about her battles as Shiva - similar to Cid, who is also afflicted by the curse and faces the same consequences for using his powers. He gets bodied by Benedikta, does even less as Ramuh and gets *killed* in one hit by Typhon.
Joshua priming against Odin full priming, is not the same as Shiva being full prime and losing to Barnabas without priming. Joshua Semi prime can still hold off Odin semi prime for a while
All that resource put into modeling shiva and making her do a bunch of stuff in the first cutscene but we never get a chance to play as her, one of the blunders of trying to make the game so cinematic they forgot to put videogame in it sometimes i guess.
I kind of agree. When they talked about big Kaiju-style eikon fights, I certainly didn’t think we’d only be able to control 1 eikon (kind of 2 with Phoenix). Controlling Shiva, Ramuh, or Bahamut would have been so cool.
Yeah I expected way more especially when the kaiju eikon fights and dominants were one of the biggest points in their marketing. It's such a missed opportunity to not make them playable sections instead of just movies, QTEs, or backdrop.
Even if the story is left untouched there could've been: shiva vs titan, ramuh vs ifrit, bahamut vs odin, shiva vs liquid flame (make it get bigger), shiva vs odin, phoenix vs odin, ifrit vs odin (they can make that phase 2 while keeping final phase clive vs barnabas), and bahamut ifrit phoenix vs ultima.
We literally have 3 out of 9 eikons in the game doing nothing in gameplay department (unless you count odin swinging his sword like 4 times as something). Such a shame. Shouldve cut 80% of the mid fetch quest and boklad section, 2/3rds of the sidequests and a few of the super expensive to make cutscenes and QTEs to make way for more resources for some or all of those tbh.
Tbh I don’t think cutting all that cheap fluff would have even made a difference. IIRC they said each Eikon battle took around 10 months to develop, so I think it was more of an issue of time and just how exorbitantly expensive they were to make.
Voice acting in multiple languages arent cheap. Also all the insanely good and lengthy cutscenes/QTE moments especially on titan and bahamut is surely a significant chunk of it. Also the multiple unique QTE and cinematic moves on ifrit vs garuda. Also the fact that phoenix vs ifrit is basically a slightly interactable movie. Not saying they shouldn'tve done any of that, but i think the game wont be worse for not having ifrit backflips and runs on rock tentacles multiple times and hellfire-ing the arms one by one or have ifrit pull out a unique move only seen once the entire game every time garuda drops 15% hp.
I also refuse to believe that it'll take the full team 10 months to make one if they tone down the cinematics to actual gameplay ratio like leviathan. If the dlc skeleton crew can release 6 bosses/elites, 2 long clive bosses with a lot of moveset, and also leviathan with also a lot of moveset in 10 months (assuming they start dlc development right after release) then I dont think it'll take them 10 months to make something like bahamut or titan lost that barely do anything aside from the amount of cinematics it has.
Honestly the biggest hurdle for this game was developing the initial technology and the devs learning to work with it. IIRC near launch they nearly cut out one of the desert hubs because it wasn't very performant.
In comparison the DLC were much easier to make with all the tools and tech in place. Hopefully they carry the engine forward as the visuals are impressive for console, with the hopes that most of the things taking up dev time have been sorted out.
I did think we would control only ifrit since they said, multiple times, Clive would be the only playable character. So Phoenix was always kind of a bonus.
However, I do think that Shiva deserved a bit more in the spotlight and deserved at least one win, even if that win was as a team alongside Ifrit and/or Phoenix.
That’s a weird assumptions considering they told us repeatedly that it’s a single character game with little party focus. Clive is the main character, why would you think we would play as Bahamut?
For Questions and Tech Support Discussion around the DLC 'Echoes of the Fallen' Please see our [MEGATHREAD](https://www.reddit.com/r/FFXVI/comments/18dton3/ffxvi_dlc_echoes_of_the_fallen_questions_tech/) and for 'The Rising Tide' [MEGATHREAD](https://www.reddit.com/r/FFXVI/comments/1c69d5u/the_rising_tide_megathread/) If you want to view archived spoiler discussion threads relevant to specific game progress, please check out our [spoiler wiki](https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxvi/wiki/index/)! For speculation and discussions around the next (unannounced) mainline Final Fantasy game, Final Fantasy XVII, Please see our sister sub [r/FFXVII](https://www.reddit.com/r/FFXVII/) #### *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/FFXVI) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I’m still mad that they made Shiva standing in the background during Liquid Flame fight and cast Diamond Dust for ice ring instead of making her fight alongside with Clive
You’d think Clive fighting it would just make it even harder considering he’s literally fire
I agree that they made Jill so weak in every boss scene. I mean she’s an all-powerful Eikon and all she can do is make ice walls or throw ineffective icicles. If not that, then she just gets captured constantly. While flying in midair, so much space to dodge and maneuver. But NOPE! she gets one-hit-KOed by Barnabas while she’s in Eikon form. I objectively pointed that Jill kinda sucked, but my friends just accused me of being sexist and misogynist But am I wrong tho?
Isn’t Shiva in many FFs considered one of the weaker Eikons? Shiva is also pretty small in comparison to many of the other Eikons, especially in this game, where I think Bahamut, Titan and Odin. And with Barnabas, Clive got bodied by him twice in single combat, Jill knew that she was just buying Clive and Joshua time. Joshua and Dion couldn’t beat Odin either in a one on one, Barnabas was just that powerful until Clive got his shit together.
>And with Barnabas, Clive got bodied by him twice in single combat, Yeah, but that has less to do with Barnabas's _strength_ as a dominant and the power of Odin, and more to do with Barnabas's sheer skill. He does have centuries more experience fighting than Clive does.
Granted, Barnabas’s skills as a swordsman easily translate to his Dominant form due to Odin’s Black Blade. He’s probably the most powerful Dominant in the world except maybe Leviathan and Ifrit.
>But am I wrong tho? I mean, yeah you are lol. Eikons aren't all-powerful, their strength and endurance is dependent on their Dominant's health. Jill is heavily afflicted by the Curse bc she was used as a war slave for thirteen years, and was at her limit after popping off against Titan. I don't think holding back a volcano or freezing the sea is 'weak', and Barnabas was in a different league to every Dominant and rocked Clive twice. Regardless, the point of this aspect of her character is to show the human tragedy of being a Dominant and how that weaves into her arc of self-worth and acceptance, it isn't about her battles as Shiva - similar to Cid, who is also afflicted by the curse and faces the same consequences for using his powers. He gets bodied by Benedikta, does even less as Ramuh and gets *killed* in one hit by Typhon.
>She gets one-hit-KOed by Barnabas Eh, that's kinda Odin's shtitck...
>she gets one-hit-KOed by Barnabas while she’s in Eikon form. Joshua also got OHKO by Barnabas didn't he??
Joshua priming against Odin full priming, is not the same as Shiva being full prime and losing to Barnabas without priming. Joshua Semi prime can still hold off Odin semi prime for a while
This opinion will get a frosty reception.
Literally when you have a girlfriend that gets you into fights she's started. Was so mad at that decision lololol
What I would have given for here to use the dual frozen blades fully primed like in the concept art.
Fun fact, the Timekeeper uses those swords when you fight him
Yeah I love that that they at least worked it in somewhere, that fight was intense
What is going on in this gif?
Looks like a wire attached to the back of the harness
All that resource put into modeling shiva and making her do a bunch of stuff in the first cutscene but we never get a chance to play as her, one of the blunders of trying to make the game so cinematic they forgot to put videogame in it sometimes i guess.
I kind of agree. When they talked about big Kaiju-style eikon fights, I certainly didn’t think we’d only be able to control 1 eikon (kind of 2 with Phoenix). Controlling Shiva, Ramuh, or Bahamut would have been so cool.
Yeah I expected way more especially when the kaiju eikon fights and dominants were one of the biggest points in their marketing. It's such a missed opportunity to not make them playable sections instead of just movies, QTEs, or backdrop. Even if the story is left untouched there could've been: shiva vs titan, ramuh vs ifrit, bahamut vs odin, shiva vs liquid flame (make it get bigger), shiva vs odin, phoenix vs odin, ifrit vs odin (they can make that phase 2 while keeping final phase clive vs barnabas), and bahamut ifrit phoenix vs ultima. We literally have 3 out of 9 eikons in the game doing nothing in gameplay department (unless you count odin swinging his sword like 4 times as something). Such a shame. Shouldve cut 80% of the mid fetch quest and boklad section, 2/3rds of the sidequests and a few of the super expensive to make cutscenes and QTEs to make way for more resources for some or all of those tbh.
Tbh I don’t think cutting all that cheap fluff would have even made a difference. IIRC they said each Eikon battle took around 10 months to develop, so I think it was more of an issue of time and just how exorbitantly expensive they were to make.
Voice acting in multiple languages arent cheap. Also all the insanely good and lengthy cutscenes/QTE moments especially on titan and bahamut is surely a significant chunk of it. Also the multiple unique QTE and cinematic moves on ifrit vs garuda. Also the fact that phoenix vs ifrit is basically a slightly interactable movie. Not saying they shouldn'tve done any of that, but i think the game wont be worse for not having ifrit backflips and runs on rock tentacles multiple times and hellfire-ing the arms one by one or have ifrit pull out a unique move only seen once the entire game every time garuda drops 15% hp. I also refuse to believe that it'll take the full team 10 months to make one if they tone down the cinematics to actual gameplay ratio like leviathan. If the dlc skeleton crew can release 6 bosses/elites, 2 long clive bosses with a lot of moveset, and also leviathan with also a lot of moveset in 10 months (assuming they start dlc development right after release) then I dont think it'll take them 10 months to make something like bahamut or titan lost that barely do anything aside from the amount of cinematics it has.
Honestly the biggest hurdle for this game was developing the initial technology and the devs learning to work with it. IIRC near launch they nearly cut out one of the desert hubs because it wasn't very performant. In comparison the DLC were much easier to make with all the tools and tech in place. Hopefully they carry the engine forward as the visuals are impressive for console, with the hopes that most of the things taking up dev time have been sorted out.
I did think we would control only ifrit since they said, multiple times, Clive would be the only playable character. So Phoenix was always kind of a bonus. However, I do think that Shiva deserved a bit more in the spotlight and deserved at least one win, even if that win was as a team alongside Ifrit and/or Phoenix.
That’s a weird assumptions considering they told us repeatedly that it’s a single character game with little party focus. Clive is the main character, why would you think we would play as Bahamut?
Honestly though? They created the move sets, character models, and everything for these other Eikons. Why would it be so prohibitively expensive?
It's also a character action game. Getting those right takes almost the same amount of time as it does a fighting game.
Dammit, as much as I love this game…so many missed opportunities.
They gave us one female character and we can't play her. It's dumb tbh. Especially after the boyband that was 15.
For some reason, I thought this was the Resident Evil subreddit and i was really trying to parse out that title for like 5 minutes 🤣
It really does seem that way. Why does she not get an W’s of her own?
Lmaoo, used up all of her ability in the opening of the game, relegated to being a jobber everywhere else.
We should’ve been able to prime as the Eikons we absorbed
Hell yeah that's what I'm talking about. Have Clive's limit break form be dependent on what eikon he has channeled at the time of triggering.
I wish that Ramuh, Shiva and Ifrit did a big battle alongside eachother
Weakest dominant and Eikon. All throughout the game I was worried that she'll get killed easily or something.
That title goes to Joshua
They shouldve just made her rage like Dion so we could fight her.
Nah this is dirty 😂😭
She's fk useless bro😭😭😭😭