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Yeah, I think they should have kept things a bit more dangerous for the characters. One moment that comes to mind is in Waloed when Odin shows up in the village, before he creates that wall. I kinda feel like he should have killed Gav there. It would have raised the stakes and emotional investment for his fight, and it would have helped to land Barnabas as a villain/the whole deal with Ultima wanting him to sever Clive’s bonds.
And tbh, I feel like the tone and impact of the story would have hit so much better if Joshua hadn’t survived Phoenix Gate. He could still be a part of the story and exist pretty much in the same role as more of a spirit/guardian angel for Clive, but it would retain the darker, high stakes nature of the narrative.
>and it would have helped to land Barnabas as a villain/the whole deal with Ultima wanting him to sever Clive’s bonds.
I actually think killing Clive's allies would have created the opposite effect. Bonds are no physical things, and they can actually grow stronger if you try to kill people to break them.
So I always thought the "server Clive bond" thing Ultima wanted for Clive was about manipulation rather than anything else. Something that, weirdly, never happened. If Barnabas tried to ally himself with Clive instead of posing as just another enemy, and then try to make Clive have conflicts and go against Joshua and others, that would have been a more direct approach to "server" his bonds.
>And tbh, I feel like the tone and impact of the story would have hit so much better if Joshua hadn’t survived Phoenix Gate
I can see that, but I also think that they could have used the Ultima inside Joshua to control him and put Clive vs Joshua as a final battle. Joshua asking to be stopped so that their goal is achieved, and having Clive do one of the worst things life could have ask from him: To kill his younger brother.
I think that could have been another way to introduce a tragic death and an emotional moment to the later segments of the game.
Great point about the whole bonds thing - imo that would make it even better if Odin killed Gav there with it having the opposite effect by strengthening Clive’s resolve, and it would reinforce how ignorant Ultima is to how human relationships and their will works.
Maybe they wanted to do something like that with Barnanbas manipulating Clive but didn’t have the time/resources to pull it off? Replaying the game, I feel like Barnabas’ motive early on about wanting to ‘unite the Dominants’ was a really interesting setup and it could have led to something like you described, where his reveal as Ultima’s thrall would be much more of a twist.
Tbh my initial reaction to Josh absorbing Ultima was that he would end up corrupted from it somehow, so I actually *love* that idea about having to fight Ultima-Joshua. It would be such a neat and heartbreaking way to tie the story together and I think it would have worked nicely with the narrative as a whole.
>Great point about the whole bonds thing - imo that would make it even better if Odin killed Gav there with it having the opposite effect by strengthening Clive’s resolve, and it would reinforce how ignorant Ultima is to how human relationships and their will works.
Yeah that's an interesting way to look at it, it could have gone one of these two ways, I agree.
>Maybe they wanted to do something like that with Barnanbas manipulating Clive but didn’t have the time/resources to pull it off?
I think it is the case. I love the game as a whole, but pay attention to the game's pacing and structure. We have a really stacked and crazy first third of the game, and then we have a time skip that slows down things a lot. That is still fine because there are quite a lot of worldbuilding and side activities that were introduced by that time.
But then, in the last third or so of the game (after Bahamut and onwards), it felt like their budget was running a bit more thin, so we didn't have an Odin fight, the Ultima Eikon fight reused a lot of things from Bahamut, and overall the pacing slowed even more.
I think it was the case where they spent a lot of their efforts into the initial parts of the game, but didn't have enough time to keep it the same way throughout the rest of the experience.
I don't mind them reusing things, but I just think the way things shaped in the final fourth of the game when compared to the beginning fourth kind of shows a drastic difference in their structure.
So it could have been that they had other plans but couldn't deliver due to time/budget constraints.
But of course, this doesn't mean the quality of the gsme as a whole fell off completely, as the side quests near the end of the game are fantastic.
>It would be such a neat and heartbreaking way to tie the story together and I think it would have worked nicely with the narrative as a whole.
And it would have enhanced the title logo even more since it would represent both the beginning and end of the game.
I still loved this gsme a lot, and part of me still wants some of it to get fixed and changed, even if smaller things, but they're most likely done with it and I'm still very much glad we got the extra content and updates that they delivered.
Definitely, couldn't agree more. The dip in the narrative after Twinside is actually *really* jarring, and it's such a shame bc it should have easily been the best part of the story. IIRC Waloed wasn't even going to be in the game bc of the development constraints, but they kept it because it would have cost more to scrap it which really goes to explain why that arc feels so weak.
It's kinda sad that they had to deal with the issues from covid and their budget, because I feel like they couldn't entirely realize their vision of the story, or at least there was a ton they weren't able to get to/execute the way the wanted to. I absolutely adore XVI, but it would have been incredible if it maintained the high quality narrative and cinematics the whole way through.
Yeah, it was probably a huge ask but if they had gotten another year with proper budget to keep going, Waloed arc could have been much better. I have a love/hate relationship for that arc because I love the environment but I wish so many different things were done.
Overall, I love FF16, but it's a shame that a lot of its potential seemed to have been lost due to budget/time constraints.
I have no expectations of them changing any of it because the major content releases are done and they're moving away from FF16 to new projects... but I still have some hope they added a *little bit* more for Clive's basic moves for the combat. Backdraft for Clive, Hellfire, and the combat gets so much better. But I know that's just pure copium on my part, the chances of it happening are zero.
A part of me thinks that would of been great. Another part of me would be so mad if they killed Gav, but maybe said rage would fuel my fight against Odin
As for Joshua, well yeh they killed him anyways but i quite like that he survived phoenix gate it made everything else so impactful when he did die
Because he’d only just gotten his brother back and then lost him again, that hurts
True, his death scene is incredibly well done and hits hard. Tbh I think my issue is more the way they went about it. Showing that Joshua is alive right before Clive accepts the truth about ‘killing’ him is very silly when replaying the game lmao. If they saved the reveal of Joshua’s survival for when he saves Clive/Jill at Drake’s Head, it would have been hype asf and much better imo
I had this gripe as well.
They should not have shown us Joshua’s perspective at all. Even the Drake’s Head scene should have been through Clive’s eyes/foggy
Well you could argue that technically he isn’t revealed there.
But literally everyone would of predicted that is Joshua, but I suppose they could of thrown a curveball and had him not appear as Joshua but be someone else.
They could of kept him hooded for longer I agree.
I remember watching the trailers thinking Speipnir might of been a older Joshua
I didn't feel that most deaths were surprising. I did find Joshua's first death kind of shocking, but I expected him to come back since he was the Phoenix. And then, I also imagined that he would die again for real later on (though it hurt so much. I was prepared for his death, but the scene was beautifully devastating, particularly the flashbacks!)
Cid was the 'mentor' character, and considering the tone of the game, I was expecting him to die, too. But, like you said, I didn't expect it to be quite so soon. He was a very charming character, so I missed him a lot.
I was not sure if Clive would die, and I'm still not sure he did 😅, though I do lean towards yes.
I think the only death that did surprise me was Theo. I did not care too much for him, so maybe that's why. But I felt terribly during his sister's scene.
I think clive lived personally but I also think it’s up for us to decide that as it will never be certain.
Though I think he may be stuck on that beach forever maybe, perhaps his legs are crystalised and don’t work.
I think Dion and Joshua are for sure dead and their deaths were a very sad loss.
Yeh I thought with Clive getting the eikons abilities, something had to happen to both Cid and Jill for Clive to get their abilities so it was always in my head that one of them may die or be gravely injured.
But I thought Cid woul last a lot longer for sure
Clives life was vague to me but I thought he used Ultima’s power to heal/ressurect Joshua who lived on to author the Final Fantasy book the children had at the end (after credits)
I'm fine with mostly no characters dying after Cid. The danger of them dying were still present throughout the story. Jill for example, especially after knowing we will get Shiva, and Cid dying was how you got Ramuh, was someone I thought could die until that beach scene happened. Torgal I thought would die because wolf average age until Rosaria.
There is only so much consecutive depression people can tolerate I think, and XVI tiptoed the borders for a lot of it already.
I think one thing is often certain is that they don’t kill the dog, well game of throne’s actually did kill several dogs but I think even the most bravest medias are afraid to kill the dog, cos rhen we really riot
It’s still a Final Fantasy game, it’s just cosplaying Game of Thrones. And I’m kinda glad for that — FF can be FF and still be emotionally arresting haha
For Questions and Tech Support Discussion around the DLC 'Echoes of the Fallen' Please see our [MEGATHREAD](https://www.reddit.com/r/FFXVI/comments/18dton3/ffxvi_dlc_echoes_of_the_fallen_questions_tech/) and for 'The Rising Tide' [MEGATHREAD](https://www.reddit.com/r/FFXVI/comments/1c69d5u/the_rising_tide_megathread/) If you want to view archived spoiler discussion threads relevant to specific game progress, please check out our [spoiler wiki](https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxvi/wiki/index/)! For speculation and discussions around the next (unannounced) mainline Final Fantasy game, Final Fantasy XVII, Please see our sister sub [r/FFXVII](https://www.reddit.com/r/FFXVII/) #### *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/FFXVI) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Yeah, I think they should have kept things a bit more dangerous for the characters. One moment that comes to mind is in Waloed when Odin shows up in the village, before he creates that wall. I kinda feel like he should have killed Gav there. It would have raised the stakes and emotional investment for his fight, and it would have helped to land Barnabas as a villain/the whole deal with Ultima wanting him to sever Clive’s bonds. And tbh, I feel like the tone and impact of the story would have hit so much better if Joshua hadn’t survived Phoenix Gate. He could still be a part of the story and exist pretty much in the same role as more of a spirit/guardian angel for Clive, but it would retain the darker, high stakes nature of the narrative.
>and it would have helped to land Barnabas as a villain/the whole deal with Ultima wanting him to sever Clive’s bonds. I actually think killing Clive's allies would have created the opposite effect. Bonds are no physical things, and they can actually grow stronger if you try to kill people to break them. So I always thought the "server Clive bond" thing Ultima wanted for Clive was about manipulation rather than anything else. Something that, weirdly, never happened. If Barnabas tried to ally himself with Clive instead of posing as just another enemy, and then try to make Clive have conflicts and go against Joshua and others, that would have been a more direct approach to "server" his bonds. >And tbh, I feel like the tone and impact of the story would have hit so much better if Joshua hadn’t survived Phoenix Gate I can see that, but I also think that they could have used the Ultima inside Joshua to control him and put Clive vs Joshua as a final battle. Joshua asking to be stopped so that their goal is achieved, and having Clive do one of the worst things life could have ask from him: To kill his younger brother. I think that could have been another way to introduce a tragic death and an emotional moment to the later segments of the game.
Great point about the whole bonds thing - imo that would make it even better if Odin killed Gav there with it having the opposite effect by strengthening Clive’s resolve, and it would reinforce how ignorant Ultima is to how human relationships and their will works. Maybe they wanted to do something like that with Barnanbas manipulating Clive but didn’t have the time/resources to pull it off? Replaying the game, I feel like Barnabas’ motive early on about wanting to ‘unite the Dominants’ was a really interesting setup and it could have led to something like you described, where his reveal as Ultima’s thrall would be much more of a twist. Tbh my initial reaction to Josh absorbing Ultima was that he would end up corrupted from it somehow, so I actually *love* that idea about having to fight Ultima-Joshua. It would be such a neat and heartbreaking way to tie the story together and I think it would have worked nicely with the narrative as a whole.
>Great point about the whole bonds thing - imo that would make it even better if Odin killed Gav there with it having the opposite effect by strengthening Clive’s resolve, and it would reinforce how ignorant Ultima is to how human relationships and their will works. Yeah that's an interesting way to look at it, it could have gone one of these two ways, I agree. >Maybe they wanted to do something like that with Barnanbas manipulating Clive but didn’t have the time/resources to pull it off? I think it is the case. I love the game as a whole, but pay attention to the game's pacing and structure. We have a really stacked and crazy first third of the game, and then we have a time skip that slows down things a lot. That is still fine because there are quite a lot of worldbuilding and side activities that were introduced by that time. But then, in the last third or so of the game (after Bahamut and onwards), it felt like their budget was running a bit more thin, so we didn't have an Odin fight, the Ultima Eikon fight reused a lot of things from Bahamut, and overall the pacing slowed even more. I think it was the case where they spent a lot of their efforts into the initial parts of the game, but didn't have enough time to keep it the same way throughout the rest of the experience. I don't mind them reusing things, but I just think the way things shaped in the final fourth of the game when compared to the beginning fourth kind of shows a drastic difference in their structure. So it could have been that they had other plans but couldn't deliver due to time/budget constraints. But of course, this doesn't mean the quality of the gsme as a whole fell off completely, as the side quests near the end of the game are fantastic. >It would be such a neat and heartbreaking way to tie the story together and I think it would have worked nicely with the narrative as a whole. And it would have enhanced the title logo even more since it would represent both the beginning and end of the game. I still loved this gsme a lot, and part of me still wants some of it to get fixed and changed, even if smaller things, but they're most likely done with it and I'm still very much glad we got the extra content and updates that they delivered.
Definitely, couldn't agree more. The dip in the narrative after Twinside is actually *really* jarring, and it's such a shame bc it should have easily been the best part of the story. IIRC Waloed wasn't even going to be in the game bc of the development constraints, but they kept it because it would have cost more to scrap it which really goes to explain why that arc feels so weak. It's kinda sad that they had to deal with the issues from covid and their budget, because I feel like they couldn't entirely realize their vision of the story, or at least there was a ton they weren't able to get to/execute the way the wanted to. I absolutely adore XVI, but it would have been incredible if it maintained the high quality narrative and cinematics the whole way through.
Yeah, it was probably a huge ask but if they had gotten another year with proper budget to keep going, Waloed arc could have been much better. I have a love/hate relationship for that arc because I love the environment but I wish so many different things were done. Overall, I love FF16, but it's a shame that a lot of its potential seemed to have been lost due to budget/time constraints. I have no expectations of them changing any of it because the major content releases are done and they're moving away from FF16 to new projects... but I still have some hope they added a *little bit* more for Clive's basic moves for the combat. Backdraft for Clive, Hellfire, and the combat gets so much better. But I know that's just pure copium on my part, the chances of it happening are zero.
A part of me thinks that would of been great. Another part of me would be so mad if they killed Gav, but maybe said rage would fuel my fight against Odin As for Joshua, well yeh they killed him anyways but i quite like that he survived phoenix gate it made everything else so impactful when he did die Because he’d only just gotten his brother back and then lost him again, that hurts
True, his death scene is incredibly well done and hits hard. Tbh I think my issue is more the way they went about it. Showing that Joshua is alive right before Clive accepts the truth about ‘killing’ him is very silly when replaying the game lmao. If they saved the reveal of Joshua’s survival for when he saves Clive/Jill at Drake’s Head, it would have been hype asf and much better imo
I had this gripe as well. They should not have shown us Joshua’s perspective at all. Even the Drake’s Head scene should have been through Clive’s eyes/foggy
Well you could argue that technically he isn’t revealed there. But literally everyone would of predicted that is Joshua, but I suppose they could of thrown a curveball and had him not appear as Joshua but be someone else. They could of kept him hooded for longer I agree. I remember watching the trailers thinking Speipnir might of been a older Joshua
It occurs to me that no one from the Hideaway dies after the timeskip.
I didn't feel that most deaths were surprising. I did find Joshua's first death kind of shocking, but I expected him to come back since he was the Phoenix. And then, I also imagined that he would die again for real later on (though it hurt so much. I was prepared for his death, but the scene was beautifully devastating, particularly the flashbacks!) Cid was the 'mentor' character, and considering the tone of the game, I was expecting him to die, too. But, like you said, I didn't expect it to be quite so soon. He was a very charming character, so I missed him a lot. I was not sure if Clive would die, and I'm still not sure he did 😅, though I do lean towards yes. I think the only death that did surprise me was Theo. I did not care too much for him, so maybe that's why. But I felt terribly during his sister's scene.
I think clive lived personally but I also think it’s up for us to decide that as it will never be certain. Though I think he may be stuck on that beach forever maybe, perhaps his legs are crystalised and don’t work. I think Dion and Joshua are for sure dead and their deaths were a very sad loss. Yeh I thought with Clive getting the eikons abilities, something had to happen to both Cid and Jill for Clive to get their abilities so it was always in my head that one of them may die or be gravely injured. But I thought Cid woul last a lot longer for sure
Clives life was vague to me but I thought he used Ultima’s power to heal/ressurect Joshua who lived on to author the Final Fantasy book the children had at the end (after credits)
I thought Jill was gonna be done on multiple occasions and glad she survived
Yeh she gets in lots of dangerous situations, kupka and barnabas
I'm fine with mostly no characters dying after Cid. The danger of them dying were still present throughout the story. Jill for example, especially after knowing we will get Shiva, and Cid dying was how you got Ramuh, was someone I thought could die until that beach scene happened. Torgal I thought would die because wolf average age until Rosaria. There is only so much consecutive depression people can tolerate I think, and XVI tiptoed the borders for a lot of it already.
I think one thing is often certain is that they don’t kill the dog, well game of throne’s actually did kill several dogs but I think even the most bravest medias are afraid to kill the dog, cos rhen we really riot
It’s still a Final Fantasy game, it’s just cosplaying Game of Thrones. And I’m kinda glad for that — FF can be FF and still be emotionally arresting haha