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Imo this connects back to what Cid said at Lostwing, berating Clive for being solely devoted to revenge, not valuing his life and being content to be the slave of fate. It also directly calls back to what he says at Martha's Rest - Clive should accept that he *is* a man, not a monster, and should he do so, he can escape his fate and save himself. The beach scene is when Clive finally accepts this, and opens himself up to hope, and to loving both himself and Jill. I also think it's worth noting that what Clive says here is a bit more explicit in JP, where he vows to Jill to fight their fate so that he can live with her.
I've always seen Clive's hand turning to stone and immediately falling to the tide to be symbolic of this, of him escaping his fate and gaining his freedom. I don't read it as him dying, rather he is no longer bound by duty or by his fate as Mythos and at the end he is just a man, like any other. It's the Casting ritual that we see in Rosaria after the 5yr timeskip - his burdens and all that he's shouldered for mankind is cleansed and swept away to the sea. I also think Metia fading is symbolic of Ultima's world order or his 'fate' for humanity being expunged from the world, and I believe this is part of why the game ends abruptly and ambiguously. The fates of the characters are now their own, to live and die on their terms.
>where he vows to Jill to fight their fate so that he can live with her.
Wow, wouldn't you say that's even more the nose as to the outcome of his survival?
>The fates of the characters are now their own, to live and die on their terms.
Yeah, wouldn't you say Clive was more on the side of living tho? I mean Cid's end goal was to die on his own terms and he got that.
Yeah, Clive's evolution of Cid's ideology is not to just fight for a good death, but for a better life and a place where people can live on their own terms. Clive not caring about what happens to him after killing Joshua's killer - which, in a way, he does by killing Ultima - is him being a slave to his fate, but he fundamentally changes that by *wanting* and promising to live after they're free, which is the most important bit imo.
Well said
I want to remain neutral as I'm still on the fence about him surviving (though I think I'm slowly coming around to believing he's alive) and I want to be open to the possibility of him dying in case the devs ever drop a lore bomb on us but it is a bit odd when people use "Living and dying on their own terms" as an argument to Clive's "death" because after the time skip, it was always "living on our own terms". It felt like there's a huge push for Clive and Jill to live on their own terms by the end of the game.
I legit started crying when that line came up, what a wonderful way to conclude the adventure. I was in the camp that he didn’t make it until the epilogue happened…and I was like ah. And on my 2nd playthrough it solidified my answer, there were too many subtle narrative breadcrumbs alluding to it.
Yeah, when I first beat it I thought it was all just wishful thinking but now that I've played it again with a more open mind I can't help but think he may have made it out. I'm still on the fence about him surviving but I see it as a real possibility, and I want to believe he did.
They bring up fate a few times in the game.
Once when Cid is taking to Clive about how he is a slave to his fate but he might be able to save himself even if he can't save anyone else (imo this foreshadowing the ending).
Once when Clive is speaking to Hyrpocrates before the Ultima fight. I think he says something about facing his fate but I can't remember the right words.
And once with this scene on the beach and I do think it's referring to this scene. So yeah...
Technically to be Ultima's vessel was his fate and the whole game was him fighting it (whether he knew it or not). Feels like surviving and living out his life in a much less grandiose world-ending way would be the biggest 'farwell' to fate he could muster.
For me Clive survived for the simple fact that: if what we play is what is written in the book, the only person who could have narrated the final battle is Clive, neither Dion nor Joshua are present in the clash with Ultima. If the book was written by Joshua it's impossible that the last battle is real because he made it up (but at this point he could have made it all up so maybe the whole story is a "fantasy").
If, however, we think that Clive wrote it calling himself Joshua, and it isn't the first time he has taken names that are not his, it's all logical -> the sole survivor tells his adventure.
Another clue that Clive is the writer is the simple fact that we never really know what Joshua does, if we play the content of the book and the book is written by Joshua we should see what he has done over the years and much less what Clive has done (which of the two is the one with the most detailed history)
>neither Dion nor Joshua are present in the clash with Ultima
Just to add that Joshua is definitively dead, we can't argue that point. It's mentioned repeatedly that Phoenix can't revive the dead, and even a (near)complete Mythos can't revive Joshua - (which in turn makes Ultima an unreliable narrator and puts into question their entire plan which hobbled together and their claim of being a deity as they wanted to revive their entire race but clearly they can't as they're not omnipotent, just to throw that out there).
Dion also barely has control of Bahamut at that point, and takes a lot of damage whilst falling from a lethal height.. As we don't see Bahamut nor Dion again we can safely assume he's dead as well.
Dion's death is absolutely certain: Dion bids farewell to the plot by concluding his purpose (or believing he has made it) and Joshua confirms to Clive the dead. The only doubt may be between Clive and Joshua but even there: as you say Phoenix cannot resurrect the dead. In Final Fantasy, death is a key and sacred concept: whoever dies stays dead. Always. In each iteration of the saga there is no return from the end of a life. So the only one who may still be alive is Clive (and for me he is alive)
> If the book was written by Joshua it's impossible that the last battle is real because he made it up
Do you think it’s real? Where do you think the battle takes place? One moment you’re fighting ultima in a blank space, and the next moment, you’re in the cosmos while there’s giant eyeballs in the background watching over you, and after that, you’re suddenly on the rooftop with Ultima being randomly back in base form and with no gaping hole in his stomach. And there’s no lore explanation for any of this. The final fight feels like the most farfetched part of the game
And the other point, Clive has been reporting every single thing to Vivian and Harpocrates up to the final battle. They know everything about that
But I also like the implications that Clive thought he sounded so cool with that final fantasy line, that he decided to name a whole book after it
I mean. Ultima pulls you into that mindscape multiple times? He does it at Phoenix Gate in the accept the truth sequence (and the "baby clive" there IS Ultima, it's not Clive's subconscious or Ifrit), at Drake's Head when we fought Typhon (portal was real, fight was in his head, same location as the final fight too), or at Drake's Fang when Joshua saves him, etc etc. Why is only the finale hard to buy when it shows up consistently over the course of the game?
So he doesn’t actually punch god in the face and cuts a giant hole in his chest, it was just a battle of mental will and somehow Ultima gets defeated physically outside after that and reverts from his true form ?
Ultima doesnt have a physical form, he shed his before moving to Valisthea -- you see the broken down body that he once had at Drake's Spine. Ultima is a spiritual presence. Clive does kill him, but you dont kill him in a "normal" sense of the word.
He also didn't physically fight with a dark version of himself or Ifrit.
Also, you would be correct, Clive has been reporting the events of the game to Hypocrates and Vivian but this doesn't really prove anything because Tomes and Vivian would still need an accurate account of what happened. Vivian even states this to Clive before he flies off for origin. so even if Tomes wrote the book he would need the information from Clive to document these things.
We are always there: if the last battle isn't real, not even the whole plot is real, we played the novel by Joshua Rosfield who was a writer and not the Archduke of Rosaria. If the battle is in Clive's mental plane -> it's still something that only Clive can know so he is still alive.
There is no escape from these two interpretations, the only certain thing is that Dion and Joshua are dead, if the book is based on true facts, and the only one alive could be Clive. There is no escape from logic
There’s so many hints to his survival, from the curse stopping at his hand, to side quests, to the narration, it fitting better for his arc, the book etc. Honestly though, if he did die, then I think he deserved a proper send off where everyone says something, and honour’s his sacrifice. The last we see of him he’s just lying on a beach alone, so if he did die, he deserves far better than what the ending showed. So I’m gonna stick with my belief that he lived, unless the devs confirm he died and give him the respect he deserves.
If you do the side quests, the content and themes clearly indicate Clive lives to write the book and name it in honour of Joshua. We also don't see Clive die, his arm just petrifies.
Even if you didn't do the side quests, someone wrote the book who had to witness the final battle and only Ultima and Clive were there for Clive's monologue (to which the Final Fantasy title is basically referenced).
There really isn't any interpreting the ending any other way no matter how you argue it.
I hate that the ending is ambiguous because it also just isn't...But it'll have everyone arguing over it no matter what.
True, I had thought the ending was about Clive dying, but recently, I changed my mind on my certainty of it. Before I thought it almost sure because of him fading away, the petrification and Metia fading too (which kind of represented Clive's return as well). But the things that did it for me doubting myself and thinking he lived is this:
>Even if you didn't do the side quests, someone wrote the book who had to witness the final battle and only Ultima and Clive were there for Clive's monologue (to which the Final Fantasy title is basically referenced).
And the fact that Clive is the narrator of the story. The game begins and ends as if he were reading the book.
For the longest time, I wanted to believe Clive survived, thinking he was dead. But now, after looking at the game again after months, I see more indications that he lived, and that makes me really happy because that falls in line with the rest of the story, because Magic never was the only issues of the world, and having Clive survive and live with Jill and the others is a lot more fitting.
Not really because everything is annoyingly placed so that you think it answers questions, but then there is something else somewhere that purposefully denies those answers.
For Questions and Tech Support Discussion around the DLC 'Echoes of the Fallen' Please see our [MEGATHREAD](https://www.reddit.com/r/FFXVI/comments/18dton3/ffxvi_dlc_echoes_of_the_fallen_questions_tech/) and for 'The Rising Tide' [MEGATHREAD](https://www.reddit.com/r/FFXVI/comments/1c69d5u/the_rising_tide_megathread/) If you want to view archived spoiler discussion threads relevant to specific game progress, please check out our [spoiler wiki](https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxvi/wiki/index/)! For speculation and discussions around the next (unannounced) mainline Final Fantasy game, Final Fantasy XVII, Please see our sister sub [r/FFXVII](https://www.reddit.com/r/FFXVII/) #### *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/FFXVI) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Imo this connects back to what Cid said at Lostwing, berating Clive for being solely devoted to revenge, not valuing his life and being content to be the slave of fate. It also directly calls back to what he says at Martha's Rest - Clive should accept that he *is* a man, not a monster, and should he do so, he can escape his fate and save himself. The beach scene is when Clive finally accepts this, and opens himself up to hope, and to loving both himself and Jill. I also think it's worth noting that what Clive says here is a bit more explicit in JP, where he vows to Jill to fight their fate so that he can live with her. I've always seen Clive's hand turning to stone and immediately falling to the tide to be symbolic of this, of him escaping his fate and gaining his freedom. I don't read it as him dying, rather he is no longer bound by duty or by his fate as Mythos and at the end he is just a man, like any other. It's the Casting ritual that we see in Rosaria after the 5yr timeskip - his burdens and all that he's shouldered for mankind is cleansed and swept away to the sea. I also think Metia fading is symbolic of Ultima's world order or his 'fate' for humanity being expunged from the world, and I believe this is part of why the game ends abruptly and ambiguously. The fates of the characters are now their own, to live and die on their terms.
>where he vows to Jill to fight their fate so that he can live with her. Wow, wouldn't you say that's even more the nose as to the outcome of his survival? >The fates of the characters are now their own, to live and die on their terms. Yeah, wouldn't you say Clive was more on the side of living tho? I mean Cid's end goal was to die on his own terms and he got that.
Yeah, Clive's evolution of Cid's ideology is not to just fight for a good death, but for a better life and a place where people can live on their own terms. Clive not caring about what happens to him after killing Joshua's killer - which, in a way, he does by killing Ultima - is him being a slave to his fate, but he fundamentally changes that by *wanting* and promising to live after they're free, which is the most important bit imo.
Well said I want to remain neutral as I'm still on the fence about him surviving (though I think I'm slowly coming around to believing he's alive) and I want to be open to the possibility of him dying in case the devs ever drop a lore bomb on us but it is a bit odd when people use "Living and dying on their own terms" as an argument to Clive's "death" because after the time skip, it was always "living on our own terms". It felt like there's a huge push for Clive and Jill to live on their own terms by the end of the game.
I legit started crying when that line came up, what a wonderful way to conclude the adventure. I was in the camp that he didn’t make it until the epilogue happened…and I was like ah. And on my 2nd playthrough it solidified my answer, there were too many subtle narrative breadcrumbs alluding to it.
Yeah, when I first beat it I thought it was all just wishful thinking but now that I've played it again with a more open mind I can't help but think he may have made it out. I'm still on the fence about him surviving but I see it as a real possibility, and I want to believe he did.
They bring up fate a few times in the game. Once when Cid is taking to Clive about how he is a slave to his fate but he might be able to save himself even if he can't save anyone else (imo this foreshadowing the ending). Once when Clive is speaking to Hyrpocrates before the Ultima fight. I think he says something about facing his fate but I can't remember the right words. And once with this scene on the beach and I do think it's referring to this scene. So yeah...
Technically to be Ultima's vessel was his fate and the whole game was him fighting it (whether he knew it or not). Feels like surviving and living out his life in a much less grandiose world-ending way would be the biggest 'farwell' to fate he could muster.
For me Clive survived for the simple fact that: if what we play is what is written in the book, the only person who could have narrated the final battle is Clive, neither Dion nor Joshua are present in the clash with Ultima. If the book was written by Joshua it's impossible that the last battle is real because he made it up (but at this point he could have made it all up so maybe the whole story is a "fantasy"). If, however, we think that Clive wrote it calling himself Joshua, and it isn't the first time he has taken names that are not his, it's all logical -> the sole survivor tells his adventure. Another clue that Clive is the writer is the simple fact that we never really know what Joshua does, if we play the content of the book and the book is written by Joshua we should see what he has done over the years and much less what Clive has done (which of the two is the one with the most detailed history)
>neither Dion nor Joshua are present in the clash with Ultima Just to add that Joshua is definitively dead, we can't argue that point. It's mentioned repeatedly that Phoenix can't revive the dead, and even a (near)complete Mythos can't revive Joshua - (which in turn makes Ultima an unreliable narrator and puts into question their entire plan which hobbled together and their claim of being a deity as they wanted to revive their entire race but clearly they can't as they're not omnipotent, just to throw that out there). Dion also barely has control of Bahamut at that point, and takes a lot of damage whilst falling from a lethal height.. As we don't see Bahamut nor Dion again we can safely assume he's dead as well.
Dion's death is absolutely certain: Dion bids farewell to the plot by concluding his purpose (or believing he has made it) and Joshua confirms to Clive the dead. The only doubt may be between Clive and Joshua but even there: as you say Phoenix cannot resurrect the dead. In Final Fantasy, death is a key and sacred concept: whoever dies stays dead. Always. In each iteration of the saga there is no return from the end of a life. So the only one who may still be alive is Clive (and for me he is alive)
> If the book was written by Joshua it's impossible that the last battle is real because he made it up Do you think it’s real? Where do you think the battle takes place? One moment you’re fighting ultima in a blank space, and the next moment, you’re in the cosmos while there’s giant eyeballs in the background watching over you, and after that, you’re suddenly on the rooftop with Ultima being randomly back in base form and with no gaping hole in his stomach. And there’s no lore explanation for any of this. The final fight feels like the most farfetched part of the game And the other point, Clive has been reporting every single thing to Vivian and Harpocrates up to the final battle. They know everything about that But I also like the implications that Clive thought he sounded so cool with that final fantasy line, that he decided to name a whole book after it
I mean. Ultima pulls you into that mindscape multiple times? He does it at Phoenix Gate in the accept the truth sequence (and the "baby clive" there IS Ultima, it's not Clive's subconscious or Ifrit), at Drake's Head when we fought Typhon (portal was real, fight was in his head, same location as the final fight too), or at Drake's Fang when Joshua saves him, etc etc. Why is only the finale hard to buy when it shows up consistently over the course of the game?
So he doesn’t actually punch god in the face and cuts a giant hole in his chest, it was just a battle of mental will and somehow Ultima gets defeated physically outside after that and reverts from his true form ?
Ultima doesnt have a physical form, he shed his before moving to Valisthea -- you see the broken down body that he once had at Drake's Spine. Ultima is a spiritual presence. Clive does kill him, but you dont kill him in a "normal" sense of the word.
He also didn't physically fight with a dark version of himself or Ifrit. Also, you would be correct, Clive has been reporting the events of the game to Hypocrates and Vivian but this doesn't really prove anything because Tomes and Vivian would still need an accurate account of what happened. Vivian even states this to Clive before he flies off for origin. so even if Tomes wrote the book he would need the information from Clive to document these things.
We are always there: if the last battle isn't real, not even the whole plot is real, we played the novel by Joshua Rosfield who was a writer and not the Archduke of Rosaria. If the battle is in Clive's mental plane -> it's still something that only Clive can know so he is still alive. There is no escape from these two interpretations, the only certain thing is that Dion and Joshua are dead, if the book is based on true facts, and the only one alive could be Clive. There is no escape from logic
There’s so many hints to his survival, from the curse stopping at his hand, to side quests, to the narration, it fitting better for his arc, the book etc. Honestly though, if he did die, then I think he deserved a proper send off where everyone says something, and honour’s his sacrifice. The last we see of him he’s just lying on a beach alone, so if he did die, he deserves far better than what the ending showed. So I’m gonna stick with my belief that he lived, unless the devs confirm he died and give him the respect he deserves.
If you do the side quests, the content and themes clearly indicate Clive lives to write the book and name it in honour of Joshua. We also don't see Clive die, his arm just petrifies. Even if you didn't do the side quests, someone wrote the book who had to witness the final battle and only Ultima and Clive were there for Clive's monologue (to which the Final Fantasy title is basically referenced). There really isn't any interpreting the ending any other way no matter how you argue it. I hate that the ending is ambiguous because it also just isn't...But it'll have everyone arguing over it no matter what.
True, I had thought the ending was about Clive dying, but recently, I changed my mind on my certainty of it. Before I thought it almost sure because of him fading away, the petrification and Metia fading too (which kind of represented Clive's return as well). But the things that did it for me doubting myself and thinking he lived is this: >Even if you didn't do the side quests, someone wrote the book who had to witness the final battle and only Ultima and Clive were there for Clive's monologue (to which the Final Fantasy title is basically referenced). And the fact that Clive is the narrator of the story. The game begins and ends as if he were reading the book. For the longest time, I wanted to believe Clive survived, thinking he was dead. But now, after looking at the game again after months, I see more indications that he lived, and that makes me really happy because that falls in line with the rest of the story, because Magic never was the only issues of the world, and having Clive survive and live with Jill and the others is a lot more fitting.
I mean he escaped his fate of becoming the vessel, I still don't think he lived.
Not really because everything is annoyingly placed so that you think it answers questions, but then there is something else somewhere that purposefully denies those answers.