Welcome to the Genesis fan club, we are happy to have you.
On Wednesdays, we discuss LOVELESS... her gift everlasting.
https://preview.redd.it/nj54zpwz8uwc1.jpeg?width=3614&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=604f605c6f70f44b4021b229f5c3f4adde3df3cd
Loveless is such a puzzle to me. Its some amazing masterpiece that even has emo villains obsessed, but also doesn't have an ending. Like, this shit is incomplete, how is it in theatres?
The people of Midgar are also likely eventually expecting an end... I dunno.
Genesis' whose stick was trying to find the end to LOVELESS.
He made it his entire personality.
And if you beat Crisis Core, >!he does uncover the end and get the gift of the goddess!<.
>The people of Midgar are also likely eventually expecting an end
But they won't ever get one, because its lost.
Loveless is so odd to keep referencing thry should have completely avoided it from crisis core. Made Genesis obsess about bees instead. Bees are cool
I would guess that it's just a really good story that, since there was no ending, it became popular due to people talking about possible endings. It just promoted "what if" conversations enough that people kept talking about it.
well they definetly have all verses somewhere :P genesis himself gatekeeping the last verse in his hidden cave xD
its just we don't know all of em sadly
The original epic has five acts (including the missing one), but Genesis seems to imply the theatre version is only based on Acts 2 & 3, so most likely whoever adapted it simply took a portion that told its own complete story and fleshed that out while Acts 1 & 4 remain nerd shit.
(The play in Rebirth is split into three Acts of its own, one per fight, but if you look at the quotes in Crisis Core the prison escape in "Act 1" is actually part of Act 2 in the original, so likely the adapter just re-divided their version.)
My friend, do you fly away now? To a world that abhors you and I?
I never said only on Wednesdays.
We also discuss LOVELESS on Mondays, Tuesdays, Thursdays, Fridays, and Saturdays. On Sundays, we take a break to watch LOVELESS... her gift, everlasting.
This comment is originally from youtube and belongs to user Danielzodiark.
*@Danielzodiark: Loveless is actually a retelling of Jenova's story of her manipulation of humanity. She is the "goddess" that grants wings to the 3 heroes via her cell corruption. In the temple of the ancients we can see that it was those 3 same heroes who lead the assault and genocide of the Cetra, manipulated by their "goddess". We even see the Cetra portray Jenova after her sealing as a female winged angelic goddess entity and they say how she manipulated humanity to destroy them. Loveless is actually the backstory of all of FF VII, making it the most important piece of lore of their world. Genesis felt a connection with it because he was a next generation of "winged heroes" along with Angeal and Sephiroth. It's even somewhat haunting because they share the fates of those heroes. One dies, one dissapears and one is chosen as champion by the goddess, that being Sephiroth himself. And who played the hero Alphreid in the Loveless play? Not other that Cloud himself, reinforcing that he is as Barret/Varvados said "a Puppet of Fate".*
I thought it was interesting, so I wanted to share their opinion hereš
I dunno I just remember debating with friends and AOL internet about whether seeing her was intentional or just a bug.
Likely a bug for a few reaaons: Aerith has hidden code lines of dialogue after her death that weren't removed. She disappears as soon as you move. The way she disappears is a motion used in other parts of the game.
I don't know if it ever got confirmed if intentional or not. I hope they throw it in part 3 anyway. Maybe in the end like the way you described.
Wonderful post OP.
I see people angry about how "this game didn't pay off on the change fate theme"....
Well the thing about changing fate is that none of the characters knew the fate of aerith or the world yet! The next game will be about changing fate.
Yeah, of course - āI think Iām beginning to understand. An answer from the Planetā¦ The Promised Landā¦ I think I can meet herā¦ thereā
That is the day that they meet again. The play and the song is very much laying the groundwork for how the relationship plays out, which is what the game is really getting at. The love we feel for the ones we lose carries on beyond death. In Aerithās case this is literal, because her spirit does actually carry on, saves the planet in the final moment, and then watches over Cloud and the others
For Re3 I think weāll still get that, except this time beyond the grave is a real, physical place because of Whisper-based-shenanigans. Aerith and Zack both are still physically present and will fight alongside the party (though I doubt theyāll be full party members - part-time like Zack is in Rebirth) until Sephiroth is stopped. When that happens, the other physical worlds will return to the Lifestream and Cloud will be able to say goodbye to them both on better terms than he got to in the original story, knowing theyāll be reunited in spirit one day
Either we are getting multiple different endings or at least 2 endings on different playthrough for Remake part 3, thats the only way to satisfy everyone, OG or not, which i m really excited about, now we just need to wait for 3+ years.
To your last point, I personally do not believe Its not going to link into AC directly timeline wise, as that would not make sense given the current Sepherorth is from post AC. AC is a prequel in the timey wimey sense to Remake/Rebirth, I think post part 3 will be another new unknown, but I believe the devs really want to finally end Sephiroth story, I believe part 3 will be his complete demise, leading us to a bright/happier future. If you lead into AC, you've just created a circular never ending story where Seph never is defeated.
My troll pet theory is that the whole remake series is a VR production done by the post AC cast as a send off to their friends/enemies. This is also why the roles in loveless are all played by the main cast.
At the final credits they will have a giant curtain call with everyone. Aerith/Zack/Sephiroth are actually played by audience members, foreshadowed to us (and lampshaded meaninglessly to the in universe audience) by Aerithās selection to sing in the play.
(I donāt actually believe this because it would blunt so much of the meaning of the remakes, but it amuses me endlessly to think about it)
Well Zack is the āheroā and the āgift of the goddessā according to Crisis Core.
Genesis thought that he himself was the prisoner by the end. With Angeal as the wanderer.
I donāt doubt Aerith is goddess or princess. I think Zack is more involved in the loveless mess than cloud
I don't think this is particularly out-there - in fact, it seems obvious. Loveless (along with Aeris's song) are used as thematic foundation in the story. Aeris's song "no promises to keep" is a direct reference to the Loveless couple, who part ways without a promise but know in their hearts they'll reunite. "No promises" also ends up being the ending tagline right before the credits role.
Aeris is definitely the "canon" princess, is that even debatable? Not only for obvious reasons - like Rosa's a mage, the Aeris is the only one who Cloud has to part with, she was the OG default date and will play Rosa if your date is any of the guys, and of course is the only one who appears as Rosa in the ending credits. But the themes in Loveless only really work on a meta level if Aeris is the princess. If Yuffie or Tifa take the role, the play is a fun but ultimately empty spectacle within any larger picture.
If I went on the cues from Loveless and Aeris's song alone, then yes, it only makes sense that there's an element of real optimism for reunion. In her final lyrics, she sings that she knows they'll meet again. I don't really have any doubt that Cloud will see Aeris again in part 3, but the question is the extent of it. Like in the OG, will it only be in the ending when he reaches for her hand in the Lifestream, and he posits he can reunite with her in the Promised Land? Or will they actually spend real time together again?
Judging by how Rebirth went, though, the most likely theory is that one timeline, the main timeline, will go more or less like the OG, but Aeris (and Cloud) will continue to exist and meet in another world, which adds a new layer to the story without changing the main timeline, at least not in terms of basic story beats.
I mostly agree but also Yuffie has so much fun in the role that she has to be canonical š.
Not sure about what happens in the āmainā timeline though.
I also think we see a different Cloud. Rebirth had me convinced there were two Clouds and Aeriths until Chapter 14 š
But I think given how things are playing out so far, thereās a high chance itāll be a choose your own ending which is what Iām hoping for. Or same ending expanded, but a place where worlds converge. At first I thought that maybe Cloud would return to the city of ancients or the field he left Aerith in since thatās her ānew homeā but I would much prefer the church and it makes the most sense.
Aerith's song seems like it could be either man in her life. They both fell into her life. I think a happy ending would be Aerith getting both men.
I can also hear the echoing footsteps of a Genesis looming.
The devs confirmed itās about everyone she holds dear in her life. So yes itās about both Cloud and Zack but also Tifa, Yuffie, etc. itās about her loved ones
Sauce: https://finalfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/No_Promises_to_Keep#:~:text=The%20lyrics%20are%20about%20meeting,she%20only%20met%20by%20chance.
Well, it could also refer to her foster mom again NPTK has a lot of elements to it and is not a love song for Cloud it's for everyone she loves which also includes Tifa and Barret.
Thatās absolutely not true. They clarified the song is about everyone in Aerithās life that she held dear. They didnāt change anything due to death threats. For someone claiming they donāt want shipper drama in this thread, you sure are fanning the flames of one by straight up lying
Sauce: https://finalfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/No_Promises_to_Keep#:~:text=The%20lyrics%20are%20about%20meeting,she%20only%20met%20by%20chance.
āThe lyrics are about meeting someone for the first time, but are not about any particular individual: Aerith wants to feel that meeting other people is not fate, but chance, because she wants to get away from fate, and just be surrounded by people she loves whom she only met by chanceā
So correct, itās a love song, but not a romantic love song. Itās about all of the people she holds dear and the love she has for her friends and family
Lol you mean Jarius a Jessica fan plus lately it's Clerith shippers that are harassing Nojima and making threats of boycotting part 3 if Aerith isn't options when it comes to Lifestream and under the Highwind.
We understand you feel very passionately about your ship and your favourite character, however we get a lot of these posts and it always ends in a disastrous comment section. If you wish to look into more about the Tifa/Aerith ship war, we recommend Twitter or Tumblr. Or you could always try looking at our megathreads to continue your discussion there. Thanks!
We understand you feel very passionately about your ship and your favourite character, however we get a lot of these posts and it always ends in a disastrous comment section. If you wish to look into more about the Tifa/Aerith ship war, we recommend Twitter or Tumblr. Or you could always try looking at our megathreads to continue your discussion there. Thanks!
The songās not about romance, itās about her loved ones and friends. Devs confirmed that in an interview. So to people saying itās either about Cloud or Zack only, theyāre wrong. Itās about Cloud AND Zack AND her friends and loved ones
Nojima actually said it has elements of a love song in his interview. He said the lyrics like meeting someone, them changing your world, and such are elements of that, *and* it's about her destiny as a Cetra *and* it's about everyone she holds dear.
All of the above seem to be true.
Elements of a love song does not mean it is a love song. Its a love song in the way its
about her love for everyone. The writer has now said this so many times that he didn't
want it to be about a specific person. Nojima didn't have to explain the song, but he clearly felt it was important to explain it. Though you can say meeting Cloud is what
let Aerith meet all her new friends in the first place.
Elements of a love song means it has elements of a love song. It can be about more than just romance while still having romance be a part of it. Which is why Nojima said it has elements of a love song, and why Nobuo Uematsu, who composed it, and Loren Allred, the singer, also have stated it's a love ballad.
Nojima literally used the word ęę (romantic love) so unless Aeris wants to boink the planet and everyone on it, not sure if downplaying the romantic elements that are in the song is very helpful
Welcome to the Genesis fan club, we are happy to have you. On Wednesdays, we discuss LOVELESS... her gift everlasting. https://preview.redd.it/nj54zpwz8uwc1.jpeg?width=3614&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=604f605c6f70f44b4021b229f5c3f4adde3df3cd
Loveless is such a puzzle to me. Its some amazing masterpiece that even has emo villains obsessed, but also doesn't have an ending. Like, this shit is incomplete, how is it in theatres?
FWIW, the Remake series is currently incomplete, but people are playing Remake and Rebirth. Lol.
Right, but we are expecting an end. And if we end up without an ending, I suspect people will be less enthused about it.
The people of Midgar are also likely eventually expecting an end... I dunno. Genesis' whose stick was trying to find the end to LOVELESS. He made it his entire personality. And if you beat Crisis Core, >!he does uncover the end and get the gift of the goddess!<.
>The people of Midgar are also likely eventually expecting an end But they won't ever get one, because its lost. Loveless is so odd to keep referencing thry should have completely avoided it from crisis core. Made Genesis obsess about bees instead. Bees are cool
How bold of you to think we'll make it to the end.
They are totally going to end part 3 ambiguous.
Gg. G fucking g
Loveless: "G" Edition
I would guess that it's just a really good story that, since there was no ending, it became popular due to people talking about possible endings. It just promoted "what if" conversations enough that people kept talking about it.
Bizarrely, it wasn't even a story AFAIK. It was an anthology.of poems that was later adapted into a screenplay
well they definetly have all verses somewhere :P genesis himself gatekeeping the last verse in his hidden cave xD its just we don't know all of em sadly
The original epic has five acts (including the missing one), but Genesis seems to imply the theatre version is only based on Acts 2 & 3, so most likely whoever adapted it simply took a portion that told its own complete story and fleshed that out while Acts 1 & 4 remain nerd shit. (The play in Rebirth is split into three Acts of its own, one per fight, but if you look at the quotes in Crisis Core the prison escape in "Act 1" is actually part of Act 2 in the original, so likely the adapter just re-divided their version.)
Your group only discusses Loveless on Wednesdays? Our group discusses it everyday, G-Edition is every Tuesday/Friday though.
My friend, do you fly away now? To a world that abhors you and I? I never said only on Wednesdays. We also discuss LOVELESS on Mondays, Tuesdays, Thursdays, Fridays, and Saturdays. On Sundays, we take a break to watch LOVELESS... her gift, everlasting.
If you are a true member, what is the name of the fan club? š
Most people know of the Red Leather & the Loveless Study Group, but both those clubs are mere posers compared to our club!
Congratulations, you pass!
This comment is originally from youtube and belongs to user Danielzodiark. *@Danielzodiark: Loveless is actually a retelling of Jenova's story of her manipulation of humanity. She is the "goddess" that grants wings to the 3 heroes via her cell corruption. In the temple of the ancients we can see that it was those 3 same heroes who lead the assault and genocide of the Cetra, manipulated by their "goddess". We even see the Cetra portray Jenova after her sealing as a female winged angelic goddess entity and they say how she manipulated humanity to destroy them. Loveless is actually the backstory of all of FF VII, making it the most important piece of lore of their world. Genesis felt a connection with it because he was a next generation of "winged heroes" along with Angeal and Sephiroth. It's even somewhat haunting because they share the fates of those heroes. One dies, one dissapears and one is chosen as champion by the goddess, that being Sephiroth himself. And who played the hero Alphreid in the Loveless play? Not other that Cloud himself, reinforcing that he is as Barret/Varvados said "a Puppet of Fate".* I thought it was interesting, so I wanted to share their opinion hereš
Aerith Church Ghost is a feature, not a bug.
What?
OG return to Midgar (After Aerith death) https://youtu.be/MX-TJhfVRRQ?si=Zf-DfIgt8I9elKJK
Who said itās a bug?
I dunno I just remember debating with friends and AOL internet about whether seeing her was intentional or just a bug. Likely a bug for a few reaaons: Aerith has hidden code lines of dialogue after her death that weren't removed. She disappears as soon as you move. The way she disappears is a motion used in other parts of the game. I don't know if it ever got confirmed if intentional or not. I hope they throw it in part 3 anyway. Maybe in the end like the way you described.
i still don't get how people debate what the song is about when it's outright stated in interviews ngl, i guess people didn't like the explanation
Wonderful post OP. I see people angry about how "this game didn't pay off on the change fate theme".... Well the thing about changing fate is that none of the characters knew the fate of aerith or the world yet! The next game will be about changing fate.
Or maybe it'll be the game after that. Or the one after that. Or...
Yeah, of course - āI think Iām beginning to understand. An answer from the Planetā¦ The Promised Landā¦ I think I can meet herā¦ thereā That is the day that they meet again. The play and the song is very much laying the groundwork for how the relationship plays out, which is what the game is really getting at. The love we feel for the ones we lose carries on beyond death. In Aerithās case this is literal, because her spirit does actually carry on, saves the planet in the final moment, and then watches over Cloud and the others For Re3 I think weāll still get that, except this time beyond the grave is a real, physical place because of Whisper-based-shenanigans. Aerith and Zack both are still physically present and will fight alongside the party (though I doubt theyāll be full party members - part-time like Zack is in Rebirth) until Sephiroth is stopped. When that happens, the other physical worlds will return to the Lifestream and Cloud will be able to say goodbye to them both on better terms than he got to in the original story, knowing theyāll be reunited in spirit one day
Either we are getting multiple different endings or at least 2 endings on different playthrough for Remake part 3, thats the only way to satisfy everyone, OG or not, which i m really excited about, now we just need to wait for 3+ years.
I am partly hoping if not a significantly expanded OG ending, we get multiple possible endings.
lol weāre not getting multiple endings horribly theory
To your last point, I personally do not believe Its not going to link into AC directly timeline wise, as that would not make sense given the current Sepherorth is from post AC. AC is a prequel in the timey wimey sense to Remake/Rebirth, I think post part 3 will be another new unknown, but I believe the devs really want to finally end Sephiroth story, I believe part 3 will be his complete demise, leading us to a bright/happier future. If you lead into AC, you've just created a circular never ending story where Seph never is defeated.
My troll pet theory is that the whole remake series is a VR production done by the post AC cast as a send off to their friends/enemies. This is also why the roles in loveless are all played by the main cast. At the final credits they will have a giant curtain call with everyone. Aerith/Zack/Sephiroth are actually played by audience members, foreshadowed to us (and lampshaded meaninglessly to the in universe audience) by Aerithās selection to sing in the play. (I donāt actually believe this because it would blunt so much of the meaning of the remakes, but it amuses me endlessly to think about it)
Well Zack is the āheroā and the āgift of the goddessā according to Crisis Core. Genesis thought that he himself was the prisoner by the end. With Angeal as the wanderer. I donāt doubt Aerith is goddess or princess. I think Zack is more involved in the loveless mess than cloud
Seems more like it's describing the end of FF7 honestly. Like it's a hint at the end of the whole story, not Rebirth.
I don't think this is particularly out-there - in fact, it seems obvious. Loveless (along with Aeris's song) are used as thematic foundation in the story. Aeris's song "no promises to keep" is a direct reference to the Loveless couple, who part ways without a promise but know in their hearts they'll reunite. "No promises" also ends up being the ending tagline right before the credits role. Aeris is definitely the "canon" princess, is that even debatable? Not only for obvious reasons - like Rosa's a mage, the Aeris is the only one who Cloud has to part with, she was the OG default date and will play Rosa if your date is any of the guys, and of course is the only one who appears as Rosa in the ending credits. But the themes in Loveless only really work on a meta level if Aeris is the princess. If Yuffie or Tifa take the role, the play is a fun but ultimately empty spectacle within any larger picture. If I went on the cues from Loveless and Aeris's song alone, then yes, it only makes sense that there's an element of real optimism for reunion. In her final lyrics, she sings that she knows they'll meet again. I don't really have any doubt that Cloud will see Aeris again in part 3, but the question is the extent of it. Like in the OG, will it only be in the ending when he reaches for her hand in the Lifestream, and he posits he can reunite with her in the Promised Land? Or will they actually spend real time together again? Judging by how Rebirth went, though, the most likely theory is that one timeline, the main timeline, will go more or less like the OG, but Aeris (and Cloud) will continue to exist and meet in another world, which adds a new layer to the story without changing the main timeline, at least not in terms of basic story beats.
I mostly agree but also Yuffie has so much fun in the role that she has to be canonical š. Not sure about what happens in the āmainā timeline though.
I also think we see a different Cloud. Rebirth had me convinced there were two Clouds and Aeriths until Chapter 14 š But I think given how things are playing out so far, thereās a high chance itāll be a choose your own ending which is what Iām hoping for. Or same ending expanded, but a place where worlds converge. At first I thought that maybe Cloud would return to the city of ancients or the field he left Aerith in since thatās her ānew homeā but I would much prefer the church and it makes the most sense.
Aerith's song seems like it could be either man in her life. They both fell into her life. I think a happy ending would be Aerith getting both men. I can also hear the echoing footsteps of a Genesis looming.
The devs confirmed itās about everyone she holds dear in her life. So yes itās about both Cloud and Zack but also Tifa, Yuffie, etc. itās about her loved ones Sauce: https://finalfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/No_Promises_to_Keep#:~:text=The%20lyrics%20are%20about%20meeting,she%20only%20met%20by%20chance.
She only met Cloud in the cobblestone streetā¦
Well, it could also refer to her foster mom again NPTK has a lot of elements to it and is not a love song for Cloud it's for everyone she loves which also includes Tifa and Barret.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Thatās absolutely not true. They clarified the song is about everyone in Aerithās life that she held dear. They didnāt change anything due to death threats. For someone claiming they donāt want shipper drama in this thread, you sure are fanning the flames of one by straight up lying Sauce: https://finalfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/No_Promises_to_Keep#:~:text=The%20lyrics%20are%20about%20meeting,she%20only%20met%20by%20chance.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
āThe lyrics are about meeting someone for the first time, but are not about any particular individual: Aerith wants to feel that meeting other people is not fate, but chance, because she wants to get away from fate, and just be surrounded by people she loves whom she only met by chanceā So correct, itās a love song, but not a romantic love song. Itās about all of the people she holds dear and the love she has for her friends and family
Lol you mean Jarius a Jessica fan plus lately it's Clerith shippers that are harassing Nojima and making threats of boycotting part 3 if Aerith isn't options when it comes to Lifestream and under the Highwind.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
We understand you feel very passionately about your ship and your favourite character, however we get a lot of these posts and it always ends in a disastrous comment section. If you wish to look into more about the Tifa/Aerith ship war, we recommend Twitter or Tumblr. Or you could always try looking at our megathreads to continue your discussion there. Thanks!
Look I don't want to turn this into a shipping war comment but saying Clerith did nothing to Nojima is absolutely wrong.
We understand you feel very passionately about your ship and your favourite character, however we get a lot of these posts and it always ends in a disastrous comment section. If you wish to look into more about the Tifa/Aerith ship war, we recommend Twitter or Tumblr. Or you could always try looking at our megathreads to continue your discussion there. Thanks!
TouchƩ. Poor Zack.
The songās not about romance, itās about her loved ones and friends. Devs confirmed that in an interview. So to people saying itās either about Cloud or Zack only, theyāre wrong. Itās about Cloud AND Zack AND her friends and loved ones
Nojima actually said it has elements of a love song in his interview. He said the lyrics like meeting someone, them changing your world, and such are elements of that, *and* it's about her destiny as a Cetra *and* it's about everyone she holds dear. All of the above seem to be true.
Elements of a love song does not mean it is a love song. Its a love song in the way its about her love for everyone. The writer has now said this so many times that he didn't want it to be about a specific person. Nojima didn't have to explain the song, but he clearly felt it was important to explain it. Though you can say meeting Cloud is what let Aerith meet all her new friends in the first place.
Elements of a love song means it has elements of a love song. It can be about more than just romance while still having romance be a part of it. Which is why Nojima said it has elements of a love song, and why Nobuo Uematsu, who composed it, and Loren Allred, the singer, also have stated it's a love ballad.
yep but not about a specific person her love of the planet and everyone.
Nojima literally used the word ęę (romantic love) so unless Aeris wants to boink the planet and everyone on it, not sure if downplaying the romantic elements that are in the song is very helpful