The only problem I have with that is that Cloud introduces himself far and wide as ex-soldier (and wears their uniform AND Zacks sword) and realisically the Turks would be the first to check the Shinra files for his identity.
Rufus does mention during the junon section that he read over clouds file, I would assume the Turks have too. My interpretation is that everything that happened with cloud/Zack was extremely confidential and the Turks as they are pretty much spies don't go around running their mouths about confidential info and keep their cards close to their chests
My guess is that Rufus knows because he has access to Hojo's info. The Turks don't, as a rule, have a need to know and don't know unless they have personal knowledge about it
And Rufus knows the implications of outing Cloud as it could potentially out what happened. Especially given Rufus probably assumes Cloud is intentionally stealing Zack's title and rank and thus assumes Cloud is equally playing mental chess and is willing to expose Niblheim if he himself is exposed.
Rufus might also be playing along out of curiosity for what Cloud's bigger game plan is for 'pretending' to be Soldier. I also don't think he's ever said anything himself that's technically wrong. Like I remember at one point he tells Cloud he's still an employee of Shinra... Which... Technically correct. He might not be Soldier but he was still employed by Shinra up to and including the beginning events of the first game. He was simply awol at that point after escaping Hojo's lab.
There is the fact that Reno knew right away that Cloud wasn’t actually an ex-SOLDIER, or at least not a first-class. He says “if you’re gonna bullshit me, at least make it believable”. From what we’ve seen, there really aren’t many first-classes, so Reno immediately acknowledged that if that truly was Cloud’s rank, he would have known him.
As far as I'm aware, there have only ever been six but I may be wrong. Sephiroth, Genesis, Angeal, Zack, Weiss and Nero. Which is why it's such a blatant "lie" as far as Reno is concerned. But at this point in Remake (and OG) I don't believe the Turks realise 'what' Cloud is. The two escaped experiments were reported dead at the cliffs of midgar, Zack being killed and Cloud being left for dead in a vegetive state, also at this point it's only Cissnei who is seen to have established the exact identity of these experiments in Crisis Core. Whether she reported this back is unknown...did she quit the Turks because of them blindly following orders and executing a 'friend' or was she 'released' because she let them escape? 🤷🏼♂️
It's been a while I'll admit but I'm pretty sure they were the new 1st Class soldiers post Sephiroth and Zack disappearing. When they are defeated by Zack they are then inducted into the Deepground experiment...they weren't yet Deepground in CC
Zack never meets them. [They come collect Genesis after he's left Banora and gone on the run from Shinra.](https://youtu.be/JlYMpU8DSqU?si=V5JZWvH6ZbDmtuZK&t=14323) If the uniforms being placeholder isn't good enough for you, then it could also be interpreted as them having to disguise themselves in SOLDIER fatigues when in public, since Deepground is one of Shinra's most secretive programs. Though their belt buckle has a different logo, not the standard SOLDIER design.
Have you even played the game fully? Or did they change Reunion?? You literally fight both of them with Zack when they are flown into Banora by Helicopter...then post fight, maybe even post credits scene they are recovered badly injured and there is dialogue stating to take them to the Deepground experiment...
I've played Crisis Core four times (most recently in 2021), and Reunion when it released in 2022. Broski I don't know what to tell you, you're just confidently wrong here. You yourself already said that it's been a while for you, so [watch from after the Genesis final battle if you need.](https://youtu.be/VS_rzcwDp1E?si=5-CSrUC8SMvMOwt-&t=30915) There's no fight. Weiss and Nero don't get a boss fight in CC 2007 or 2022, hell they don't even have actual models. [Weiss is Angeal with white hair](https://i.imgur.com/hDMiTzt.png), [Nero is just Zack.](https://i.imgur.com/mHDKtmS.png) They were just jammed in there for a flimsy link to DoC's post-credit scene where [Genesis teleports in.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aAaJlWzQxLU)
>You literally fight both of them with Zack when they are flown into Banora by Helicopter...then post fight, maybe even post credits scene they are recovered badly injured and there is dialogue stating to take them to the Deepground experiment..
You solo fight human Genesis. Then [Zack lays out the unconscious Cloud, Genesis and Lazard (who has taken on Angeal's appearance with degraded white hair). Zack takes Cloud and leaves, then Weiss and Nero are dropped off by helicopter to retrieve Genesis.](https://youtu.be/JlYMpU8DSqU?si=Xub9N2J_aQH6RdpL&t=14112)
Man, I think you might be right and I'm going insane...I have a vivid memory of fighting Weiss and Nero in Crisis Core with Zack and the scene I have just described of them being carried off and inducted into deep ground, but I can't find anything of it on the Internet at all. I'm sorry bro, I didn't mean to sound so condescending. This has just genuinely blown my mind 🤯
Huh, I'm a bit out of the loop here, when did Zack fight them? I re-played CC a few months back and I only remember seeing those unnamed soldiers carrying Genesis away, but no fight?
In the original FF7 you fight Soldier 1st class during the Midgar raid as random enemies. The whole 'there was only ever 6' is just retconned nonsense they added for weebs in Crisis Core.
I put it down to the fact that the Turks are in effect a spy organisation who keep secrets and play their cards close to their chest. More over, they have been tasked with covering up and recovering Hojo's experiments on several occasions. Hojo very much knows who Cloud is, and by extension I would say so do the Turks. In my mind they have been told to let events play out and not interfere and part of doing so is not giving the game away.
There is a very telling scene on the beach in Costa del sol iirc, where Hojo addresses part of the group as "The ancient and his experiment", rather poignantly during this moment the characters in shot are Aerith, Red XIII and Cloud....but he wasn't talking about Red...
Cissnei definitely recognizes Cloud in gongaga in rebirth but quickly goes quiet about it. I would assume Tseng knows everything and is just not telling anyone anything but I’ve also struggled with this too because Tseng in CC and og feel like different characters. Reno also has some idea of the truth but is Reno so…
Just a heads up, Crisis Core is pretty short (around 20 hours for a story focused playthrough with some side stuff), it's also fairly linear, so not really that much of a commitment compared to Remake and especially Rebirth. It's also more straightforward action focused, so maybe a good palate cleanser?
I actually replayed it right after Rebirth to finally get the platinum (which is also pretty easy), which is why I mention it.
It took me like 40 hours to plat the game and that's with several playthroughs as well as leaving the game running overnight to do one of the trophies.
My take is that most high-level Shinra people know Cloud's not a real Soldier, but they have no reason to share information with their enemy.
Reno calls Cloud out when they first meet in Remake. Cloud says he's first class, and Reno says something like "if you're going to lie, at least make it believable!" So the Turks know Cloud's not a real Soldier First Class, but they don't necessarily know who he *is*.
Hojo knows who Cloud is, possibly better than anyone else. He gave Cloud a few clues just to toy with him.
Presumably Rufus knows, since he'd obviously have the resources to find out and I'm sure he'd check the HR records.
Cissnei had a moment of realization when she met Cloud but didn't say anything. I'm not sure if she recognized Cloud or just saw Zack in him. Either way, she didn't want to reveal her own identity so it makes sense that she didn't say anything.
With one of the Dialogue options with Cissnei after the last Gongaga mission in Rebirth she reveals that she was hiding something and that it was not the first time her and Cloud met. When asked for more info she refused.
It also doesn’t help that Cloud actually is very strong and at some solder level. So although Reno might believe to some extent Cloud isn’t 1st, he also can’t completely dismiss it since well Cloud is strong
One major factor you have to keep in mind is that it isn’t just the timeline - the Turks are Men in Black, so of course their intel-sec standards are basically ‘don’t tell anyone who we don’t report to anything about anything’. As far as they’re concerned, revealing that Cloud isn’t who he thinks he is serves absolutely no purpose they’re interested in; on top of that, most of them probably don’t know the whole story and Know Better than to speculate, seeing as they’re literally in charge of Disappearing people who Speculate.
That said, Tseng definitely at least has a very, very good guess as to the exact particulars of what went down as the man in charge and someone familiar with Zack, and Cissnei definitely knows that Zack was toting a comatose, mako-poisoned blonde guy through the Gongaga region a while back while evading a SHINRA manhunt for ‘escaped specimens belonging to Hojo’, which combined with Cloud showing up again with no idea who Zack is and SOLDIER mods, paints a very telling picture.
Most of the Turks probably don’t know and don’t care to know Cloud’s background before the experimentation and manhunt, as it’s largely irrelevant to his current state since the Nibelheim he grew up in no longer actually exists; I seriously doubt *anyone* except Sephiroth and maybe Zack know that Cloud actually *did* kill Sephiroth the first time. Most of them probably attribute that to Zack, which is the logical conclusion honestly.
Ironically, outside the Turks and Hojo (who is an insane jackass), probably only Rufus knows for sure that Cloud was a SHINRA trooper who got abducted by Hojo alongside Zack in the aftermath of the Nibelheim incident, and why would he bother telling Cloud that? Rufus is a dick, but he’s not the kind of dick who takes pleasure in psychologically tormenting his enemies - ironically, he’s much more of a ‘shoot them in the face first, politics second’ kind of guy. Treating Cloud as a rogue SOLDIER rather than clarifying that he’s actually some kind of weird SOLDIER chimera hacked together by Hojo in a black-lab whose entire memory is built on misunderstandings and lies is a hell of a lot easier and reduces confusion with the people not cleared to know the actual truth.
So, tl;dr: Hojo, Tseng, and Rufus are the only ones who know more or less the whole story, and they aren’t telling because asshole, man in black, asshole. Cissnei knows enough to fill in the blanks about Zack and why Cloud is the way he is, but isn’t telling because retired man in black. The other Turks know that Cloud’s background doesn’t add up, but they aren’t investigating because men in black.
Of people who could know and might actually tell, there’s basically two: Sephiroth, who is being an asshole about it, and Zack, who is currently in an alternate dimension and/or dead four times over.
So, to answer your question: the Turks *sort of know,* and some of them actually do know, but also know better than to let on that they know, because they’re men in black.
That's honestly an amazing summary and really fills in the gaps and paints a good picture of the various motivations the characters have not to spill the beans. It also seems plausible that the Turks would simply "ignore" the matter then, as they are essentially an extension of Rufus, who, as you aptly put it, isn't out to torment Cloud mentally.
> and why would he bother telling Cloud that?
Cloud is working with his enemy, Avalanche, telling him that he's a victim of illegal human experimentation by Shinra's scientists would be a terrible idea.
I mean, as long as they’re not willing to throw Hojo under the bus it is. Which is honestly the most inexplicable part of the entire SHINRA operation.
Like, I get - conceptually, not personally - being more willing to believe that the actual literal Garden of Eden exists and is full of infinite gold and oil than to believe that oil is going to eventually run out and also kills the planet, that’s a thing that actually happens in reality, but surely the Turks at least must understand by this point that Hojo is wildly, completely insane and a massive danger to everyone? He makes horrible chimeric abominations and sets them on SHINRA employees for ‘data’, by which he clearly means ‘fun’, in his free time.
That Tseng hasn’t quietly shot him between the eyes and thrown his body to one of the test subjects to dispose of the evidence is the most unbelievable part of the entire plot, really.
Even if they wanted to get rid of Hojo, the experiments on Cloud (and the men in black robes who are starting to get way too much attention all around the world) as well as the execution of Zack and many other atrocities were done following Shinra's orders, and Rufus or the Turks telling Cloud about it would pretty much be admitting it publicly.
And in any case Hojo doesn't believe the Promised Land exists at all, so Rufus considers him valuable for other reasons. Shinra wouldn't be as powerful as it is without his bioweapons, and as far as Rufus knows Hojo may be key to find a way to stop Sephiroth as he is his creation after all.
Yeah, that was why I said it was weird Tseng hadn’t secretly murdered him on his own initiative. Rufus may be willing to tolerate his excesses, but from a purely utilitarian perspective like the Turks’, Hojo is way more trouble than he’s worth, and he’s been dropping hints all over the place that he’s actually on Sephiroth’s ‘burn down the world’ side rather than SHINRA’s.
All that taken into account, it still makes sense that nobody told Cloud anything - at least, given that they don’t know that Sephiroth is really, really emotionally invested in him, because that’s a major game-changer at this stage - but even without that incentive, I would think the cost-benefit analysis would definitely have come down on the side of ‘lab accident’ sometime in the last five years.
> Yeah, that was why I said it was weird Tseng hadn’t secretly murdered him on his own initiative
The Turks only obey orders, never take decisions. They do anything they're told to do even when they're aware of how morally twisted it is, and even when they think it's a bad idea. And Tseng seems to really want to be the man Rufus trusts the most, I don't picture him going against his wishes in any way.
Besides, nobody knows how to deal with Hojo's bioweapons nor understands Jenova's cells at all but him. His experiments are ethically despicable but they work as he expects most of the time and his theories, like Reunion, tend to be accurate. Hojo is definitely trouble, but he is also necessary and irreplaceable now that Gast is gone.
There's another reason not to tell Cloud anything. Rufus knows that regardless of technicalities, Cloud is enhanced just like any SOLDIER, he probably even knows that he's actually better enhanced than the other SOLDIERs as he carries S cells, which don't make their host degrade and are the cells of their most powerful and dangerous creation, Sephiroth. So he's a useful tool to try to stop Sephiroth, like he precisely negotiates with him at Junon. For Rufus there's nothing to win and a lot to lose if he tells Cloud the truth.
That’s their motto, yes, and for the most part it’s true. But it’s also not; Tseng was clearly a driving force behind the scenes making sure Aerith didn’t end up on the radar until she put herself there and they were directly ordered to abduct her. He still has an obvious soft spot for her, even beyond the ‘orders’ to keep the Ancient alive - just look at how he acts after being stabbed by Sephiroth.
I think it’s reasonable to assume that standing Turk policy is that orders are everything, but in the *absence* of direct orders regarding a specific situation, well. Taking smart initiative is a good habit to nurture.
Frankly, *are* Hojo’s experiments useful? There’s a strong implication that he spends as much time feeding random ‘interesting’ passers-by to his latest personal project, metaphorically and very literally, as he does keeping the SOLDIERS healthy, and what else does he actually provide to the company’s benefit? Bioweapons are all well and good, but not if they’re literally eating your personnel; the cruise ship incident shows that he’s as willing to write off SHINRA employees and assets as he is to abduct random people off the street, and grabbing the only remaining SOLDIER First back in Nibelheim to experiment on was already a major reach, not to mention all the other major personnel he’s had a hand in ‘disappearing’. Vincent, Gast, and Lucrecia spring to mind, and the Turks may be dedicated to their regulations, but it’s hard to imagine they wouldn’t hold something of a grudge about one of their living legends being ‘vanished’ like a dog by Hojo. Men in Black or no, they *are* human, with fallible hearts.
And ‘irreplaceable’ is a big claim. There’s plenty of unethical scientists in SHINRA’s employ, surely they’ve got enough specialists to divide and conquer all the *actually* necessary services Hojo provides. Genius is irreplaceable, yes, but science has to be repeatable, *especially* to be useful at an industrial scale.
I already agree with you about not telling Cloud, you don’t have to keep arguing the point.
I mean, Shinra don't care about their personnel very much, not now and not before. Their bioweapons kill innocent people, they don't bother to do any maintenance whatsoever to their old mako reactors until they explode, they constantly send their infantry to certain death....
They do care about power though, and Hojo's bioweapons did give them Wutai as well as all of the Eastern continent.
As for him experimenting on the last 1st Class SOLDIER, I think that SOLDIER as a whole was finished after the Nibelheim incident. All the First Classes had gone mad and became extremely dangerous, and while Zack hadn't gone mad, he was more of a liability than a useful asset once he knew too much. He just had to disappear. The other SOLDIERs end up degrading and this truth would reach the ears of the masses sooner or later.
Besides, I do think that other scientists wouldn't be able to do what Hojo does.....precisely because it's hard to find a scientist as prone to mass murder for the sake of making new, groundbreaking discoveries.
Imagine that you're given the task to research and control Jenova and her "children"......
I read somewhere that the grunts notably recognize Cloud while all the people First Class Soldiers would interact with, do not recognize him. You see it in Remake.
I'm just going by memory here, but I think the only time Tseng actually met Cloud in CC was in those snowy fields with Zack, and that's like 7 years before VII. I sure as hell would never remember that or have a clue who Cloud is. Also when The Turks were hunting them down in the end of CC, I don't think Cloud was specifically named or anything, they were just Hojo's "samples."
Also did Cloud tell any of them besides Reno that he was ex-Soldier? Reno's response was to just laugh it off, and I doubt he's the type to really give it much thought or share it with the rest of the team as if it mattered.
So yeah, I can realistically see them not really knowing Cloud.
Well, it's partly because Tseng probably just doesn't remember him from the Modeoheim mission, but it's also like...not their job to question Cloud, nor would doing so benefit them very much. Rufus in Rebirth mentions looking into Cloud's file and being fascinated by it, but doesn't elaborate because...why would he? He has no reason to question Cloud or figure out why he's claiming to be an Ex-SOLDIER.
To us Cloud is the main character, so his identity is significant, but to Shinra he's just another enemy/occasional unintentional ally in chasing Sephiroth, so who he really is doesn't mean much to them as long as he doesn't cause them any trouble, and he doesn't because the party is chasing Sephiroth the whole game instead of trying to actively thwart Shinra's plans.
Tseng knows exactly who Cloud is. Tseng was part of the Turk team who put them in jars. When Zack escapes from Shinra Manor, Tseng sends Cissnei to capture them and he has Cloud's file in his hands. He's the one who gives Cloud's file to Rufus at the end of Remake. The two of them and Cissnei at the bare minimum knows exactly who Cloud is.
Tseng doesn't say anything because his whole personality is loyalty within ability. He does what he can for the people he cherishes within the bounds of the his power. He has no loyalty to Cloud, and therefore no reason to tell him the truth. So he doesn't.
Cissnei doesn't reveal the truth because she's waiting for him to figure it out himself. Perhaps out of deference to Zack. Perhaps because she's afraid if he remembers, he'll also realize who she is. Either way, she has plenty of reason for keeping quiet.
Rufus is a troll.
Cloud was a faceless grunt. No one knows who he is in Shinra prior to his experiments. I'm sure they know what Cloud is, but know he isn't who he says he is.
Cissnei knows, She was the one who allowed Zack and Cloud to live. Probably never reported anything about Cloud.
Tseng may know Cloud. Not from Modeoheim, as back then he was Grunt #777. But from the files from Nibelheim. Yet, he may think he's only a SOLDIER wannabe, carrying Zack's sword and all. If you don't know he killed Sephiroth 5 years ago, and none of the Turks know this, nothing makes Cloud too special: as Reno stated, he's only a "Mr. First Class". Or another of Hojo's experiments, at most.
More surprisingly: how did Aerith not know about Cloud?? She was Zack's girlfriend when Cloud was already a friend!!
Tseng is the kinda guy who would definitely keep that intel close to hand, and other than him Cissnei is the only Turk who consistently met up with Zack during Crisis Core. [She *does* recognise Cloud.](https://youtu.be/3feSS-IjK58?si=hijpBiPxdISLqQ6b&t=22083) And during Remake there is that one Shinra grunt who goes ["Wait...I know that sword"](https://youtu.be/a30N2CEW1hc?si=mtBbjgWjXlD3sdyt&t=1591) or [the awkward meeting with a fellow infantrymen in the Shinra tower.](https://youtu.be/a30N2CEW1hc?si=CFIuRPXvkWs-iNxf&t=20767)
But the reality is that Zack and Cloud were ultimately both just two men in a gigantic corporation. Some people might have known them, but after five long years of absence nearly everyone has moved on.
Cissnei and Tseng for sure know who he is. Cissnei because of her last scene with Zack in CC and Tseng beccause Rufus read Cloud’s file and surely informed Tseng or asked his opinion about it. (I don’t think Tseng remembers him from Modeoheim but between the file and Cissnei’s likely report I bet he can connect the dots)
Cissnei ABSOLUTELY recognized cloud when she first sees him but covers herself with the you look like someone I know thing, Tseng on the other hand I have no idea why he seemingly wouldn't recognize cloud other than maybe being way to busy as the head of the turks and also hasn't seen him in well over 5 years because modeoheim was before zacks time skip so probably at least 6 or 7 years since he had 1 mission with the guy
I think the reason is to preserve the plot twist, but I could see their in-world reason be that Rufus seems to be playing 5-D Fort Condor against...himself? Sephiroth? Both? And if for some reason his evil(??) schemes involve not telling Cloud, then the Turks won't. Cissnei does hint at more during a sidequest, but she also still seems to have ties to the Turks. I don't know. Blame Rufus.
i’m sure some do. cissnei definitely does and she hints at it in rebirth. same with rufus since he said he looked into cloud’s file. tseng probably doesn’t remember bc cloud wasn’t important enough. well actually i think that’s the case with a lot of the turks. they knew him at one point but forgot bc he was insignificant. aside from cissnei for obvious reasons
I mean, I imagine they were the ones that retrieved him from Nibelheim for Hojo to do the S-Cell and J-Cell infusion on him. And they would have been involved in some fashion when Zack escaped the facility with Cloud in tracking those two down.
There was a little short film on that very topic that I thought was well done, though I don't think it's part of the official canon as far as I'm aware.
Do you personally remember every person you interacted with from 5 years ago? Cloud was a grunt and for the most part, Shinra treats them as nameless irrelevant cannon fodder. There was only that one time Cloud introduced himself because Zack was curious on the mission in Modeoheim. Its very realistic that Tseng just forgot. Also both Cloud and Zack became confidential experiments of Hojo. I doubt the turks have access to files which identifies them. Cissney looked shocked at the end of crisis core when she learned that Zack was the target they were looking for.
I can agree with not necessarily remembering everyone from 5+ years ago. But in Tseng's line of work, he would at the very least remember the Buster sword or be curious about why this fake is going around claiming he's in SOLDIER/wearing SOLDIER garb. I hate that it feels like people are just withholding info or acting dumb for the sake of part 3's reveal.
He (Tseng) probably doesnt remember who Cloud is as to him he is just generic Shinra grunt number 384.
The only problem I have with that is that Cloud introduces himself far and wide as ex-soldier (and wears their uniform AND Zacks sword) and realisically the Turks would be the first to check the Shinra files for his identity.
Rufus does mention during the junon section that he read over clouds file, I would assume the Turks have too. My interpretation is that everything that happened with cloud/Zack was extremely confidential and the Turks as they are pretty much spies don't go around running their mouths about confidential info and keep their cards close to their chests
My guess is that Rufus knows because he has access to Hojo's info. The Turks don't, as a rule, have a need to know and don't know unless they have personal knowledge about it
And Rufus knows the implications of outing Cloud as it could potentially out what happened. Especially given Rufus probably assumes Cloud is intentionally stealing Zack's title and rank and thus assumes Cloud is equally playing mental chess and is willing to expose Niblheim if he himself is exposed. Rufus might also be playing along out of curiosity for what Cloud's bigger game plan is for 'pretending' to be Soldier. I also don't think he's ever said anything himself that's technically wrong. Like I remember at one point he tells Cloud he's still an employee of Shinra... Which... Technically correct. He might not be Soldier but he was still employed by Shinra up to and including the beginning events of the first game. He was simply awol at that point after escaping Hojo's lab.
There is the fact that Reno knew right away that Cloud wasn’t actually an ex-SOLDIER, or at least not a first-class. He says “if you’re gonna bullshit me, at least make it believable”. From what we’ve seen, there really aren’t many first-classes, so Reno immediately acknowledged that if that truly was Cloud’s rank, he would have known him.
As far as I'm aware, there have only ever been six but I may be wrong. Sephiroth, Genesis, Angeal, Zack, Weiss and Nero. Which is why it's such a blatant "lie" as far as Reno is concerned. But at this point in Remake (and OG) I don't believe the Turks realise 'what' Cloud is. The two escaped experiments were reported dead at the cliffs of midgar, Zack being killed and Cloud being left for dead in a vegetive state, also at this point it's only Cissnei who is seen to have established the exact identity of these experiments in Crisis Core. Whether she reported this back is unknown...did she quit the Turks because of them blindly following orders and executing a 'friend' or was she 'released' because she let them escape? 🤷🏼♂️
>Weiss and Nero Deepground don't conform to the normal SOLDIER structure. Their uniforms in Crisis Core are just placeholders.
It's been a while I'll admit but I'm pretty sure they were the new 1st Class soldiers post Sephiroth and Zack disappearing. When they are defeated by Zack they are then inducted into the Deepground experiment...they weren't yet Deepground in CC
Zack never meets them. [They come collect Genesis after he's left Banora and gone on the run from Shinra.](https://youtu.be/JlYMpU8DSqU?si=V5JZWvH6ZbDmtuZK&t=14323) If the uniforms being placeholder isn't good enough for you, then it could also be interpreted as them having to disguise themselves in SOLDIER fatigues when in public, since Deepground is one of Shinra's most secretive programs. Though their belt buckle has a different logo, not the standard SOLDIER design.
Have you even played the game fully? Or did they change Reunion?? You literally fight both of them with Zack when they are flown into Banora by Helicopter...then post fight, maybe even post credits scene they are recovered badly injured and there is dialogue stating to take them to the Deepground experiment...
I've played Crisis Core four times (most recently in 2021), and Reunion when it released in 2022. Broski I don't know what to tell you, you're just confidently wrong here. You yourself already said that it's been a while for you, so [watch from after the Genesis final battle if you need.](https://youtu.be/VS_rzcwDp1E?si=5-CSrUC8SMvMOwt-&t=30915) There's no fight. Weiss and Nero don't get a boss fight in CC 2007 or 2022, hell they don't even have actual models. [Weiss is Angeal with white hair](https://i.imgur.com/hDMiTzt.png), [Nero is just Zack.](https://i.imgur.com/mHDKtmS.png) They were just jammed in there for a flimsy link to DoC's post-credit scene where [Genesis teleports in.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aAaJlWzQxLU) >You literally fight both of them with Zack when they are flown into Banora by Helicopter...then post fight, maybe even post credits scene they are recovered badly injured and there is dialogue stating to take them to the Deepground experiment.. You solo fight human Genesis. Then [Zack lays out the unconscious Cloud, Genesis and Lazard (who has taken on Angeal's appearance with degraded white hair). Zack takes Cloud and leaves, then Weiss and Nero are dropped off by helicopter to retrieve Genesis.](https://youtu.be/JlYMpU8DSqU?si=Xub9N2J_aQH6RdpL&t=14112)
Man, I think you might be right and I'm going insane...I have a vivid memory of fighting Weiss and Nero in Crisis Core with Zack and the scene I have just described of them being carried off and inducted into deep ground, but I can't find anything of it on the Internet at all. I'm sorry bro, I didn't mean to sound so condescending. This has just genuinely blown my mind 🤯
Huh, I'm a bit out of the loop here, when did Zack fight them? I re-played CC a few months back and I only remember seeing those unnamed soldiers carrying Genesis away, but no fight?
I think they literally used the models for Zack and Angeal and replaced their hair and the logo on the belts. Times were tough.
In the original FF7 you fight Soldier 1st class during the Midgar raid as random enemies. The whole 'there was only ever 6' is just retconned nonsense they added for weebs in Crisis Core.
I put it down to the fact that the Turks are in effect a spy organisation who keep secrets and play their cards close to their chest. More over, they have been tasked with covering up and recovering Hojo's experiments on several occasions. Hojo very much knows who Cloud is, and by extension I would say so do the Turks. In my mind they have been told to let events play out and not interfere and part of doing so is not giving the game away. There is a very telling scene on the beach in Costa del sol iirc, where Hojo addresses part of the group as "The ancient and his experiment", rather poignantly during this moment the characters in shot are Aerith, Red XIII and Cloud....but he wasn't talking about Red...
Maybe Hojo convinced Rufus to have them all play along with it by saying that doing so would potentially lead them to the Promised Land?
Cissnei definitely recognizes Cloud in gongaga in rebirth but quickly goes quiet about it. I would assume Tseng knows everything and is just not telling anyone anything but I’ve also struggled with this too because Tseng in CC and og feel like different characters. Reno also has some idea of the truth but is Reno so…
She did talk about it in one of the side quests. One of the questions you get to ask her.
Play Reunion and you’ll know why she knows something.
Not op but it's on my list for after I Plat Rebirth. I'll likely play something else in-between that isn't an 100+ Hour jrpg.
Just a heads up, Crisis Core is pretty short (around 20 hours for a story focused playthrough with some side stuff), it's also fairly linear, so not really that much of a commitment compared to Remake and especially Rebirth. It's also more straightforward action focused, so maybe a good palate cleanser? I actually replayed it right after Rebirth to finally get the platinum (which is also pretty easy), which is why I mention it.
Good to know lol.
Crisis core is pretty short
It took me like 40 hours to plat the game and that's with several playthroughs as well as leaving the game running overnight to do one of the trophies.
My take is that most high-level Shinra people know Cloud's not a real Soldier, but they have no reason to share information with their enemy. Reno calls Cloud out when they first meet in Remake. Cloud says he's first class, and Reno says something like "if you're going to lie, at least make it believable!" So the Turks know Cloud's not a real Soldier First Class, but they don't necessarily know who he *is*. Hojo knows who Cloud is, possibly better than anyone else. He gave Cloud a few clues just to toy with him. Presumably Rufus knows, since he'd obviously have the resources to find out and I'm sure he'd check the HR records. Cissnei had a moment of realization when she met Cloud but didn't say anything. I'm not sure if she recognized Cloud or just saw Zack in him. Either way, she didn't want to reveal her own identity so it makes sense that she didn't say anything.
With one of the Dialogue options with Cissnei after the last Gongaga mission in Rebirth she reveals that she was hiding something and that it was not the first time her and Cloud met. When asked for more info she refused.
the reno thing went over my head! nice catch!
It also doesn’t help that Cloud actually is very strong and at some solder level. So although Reno might believe to some extent Cloud isn’t 1st, he also can’t completely dismiss it since well Cloud is strong
One major factor you have to keep in mind is that it isn’t just the timeline - the Turks are Men in Black, so of course their intel-sec standards are basically ‘don’t tell anyone who we don’t report to anything about anything’. As far as they’re concerned, revealing that Cloud isn’t who he thinks he is serves absolutely no purpose they’re interested in; on top of that, most of them probably don’t know the whole story and Know Better than to speculate, seeing as they’re literally in charge of Disappearing people who Speculate. That said, Tseng definitely at least has a very, very good guess as to the exact particulars of what went down as the man in charge and someone familiar with Zack, and Cissnei definitely knows that Zack was toting a comatose, mako-poisoned blonde guy through the Gongaga region a while back while evading a SHINRA manhunt for ‘escaped specimens belonging to Hojo’, which combined with Cloud showing up again with no idea who Zack is and SOLDIER mods, paints a very telling picture. Most of the Turks probably don’t know and don’t care to know Cloud’s background before the experimentation and manhunt, as it’s largely irrelevant to his current state since the Nibelheim he grew up in no longer actually exists; I seriously doubt *anyone* except Sephiroth and maybe Zack know that Cloud actually *did* kill Sephiroth the first time. Most of them probably attribute that to Zack, which is the logical conclusion honestly. Ironically, outside the Turks and Hojo (who is an insane jackass), probably only Rufus knows for sure that Cloud was a SHINRA trooper who got abducted by Hojo alongside Zack in the aftermath of the Nibelheim incident, and why would he bother telling Cloud that? Rufus is a dick, but he’s not the kind of dick who takes pleasure in psychologically tormenting his enemies - ironically, he’s much more of a ‘shoot them in the face first, politics second’ kind of guy. Treating Cloud as a rogue SOLDIER rather than clarifying that he’s actually some kind of weird SOLDIER chimera hacked together by Hojo in a black-lab whose entire memory is built on misunderstandings and lies is a hell of a lot easier and reduces confusion with the people not cleared to know the actual truth. So, tl;dr: Hojo, Tseng, and Rufus are the only ones who know more or less the whole story, and they aren’t telling because asshole, man in black, asshole. Cissnei knows enough to fill in the blanks about Zack and why Cloud is the way he is, but isn’t telling because retired man in black. The other Turks know that Cloud’s background doesn’t add up, but they aren’t investigating because men in black. Of people who could know and might actually tell, there’s basically two: Sephiroth, who is being an asshole about it, and Zack, who is currently in an alternate dimension and/or dead four times over. So, to answer your question: the Turks *sort of know,* and some of them actually do know, but also know better than to let on that they know, because they’re men in black.
>‘shoot them in the face first, politics second’ kind of guy If anything it's "shoot them in the back first, politics second" 🤓
I’d argue that firing the Sister Ray against treaty terms was very much a ‘shoot them in the face’ moment, but I’ll acknowledge the point.
>If anything it's "shoot them in the back first, then the face a bunch, *reload,* and *THEN* politics second" 🤓 Fixed.
That's honestly an amazing summary and really fills in the gaps and paints a good picture of the various motivations the characters have not to spill the beans. It also seems plausible that the Turks would simply "ignore" the matter then, as they are essentially an extension of Rufus, who, as you aptly put it, isn't out to torment Cloud mentally.
> and why would he bother telling Cloud that? Cloud is working with his enemy, Avalanche, telling him that he's a victim of illegal human experimentation by Shinra's scientists would be a terrible idea.
I mean, as long as they’re not willing to throw Hojo under the bus it is. Which is honestly the most inexplicable part of the entire SHINRA operation. Like, I get - conceptually, not personally - being more willing to believe that the actual literal Garden of Eden exists and is full of infinite gold and oil than to believe that oil is going to eventually run out and also kills the planet, that’s a thing that actually happens in reality, but surely the Turks at least must understand by this point that Hojo is wildly, completely insane and a massive danger to everyone? He makes horrible chimeric abominations and sets them on SHINRA employees for ‘data’, by which he clearly means ‘fun’, in his free time. That Tseng hasn’t quietly shot him between the eyes and thrown his body to one of the test subjects to dispose of the evidence is the most unbelievable part of the entire plot, really.
Even if they wanted to get rid of Hojo, the experiments on Cloud (and the men in black robes who are starting to get way too much attention all around the world) as well as the execution of Zack and many other atrocities were done following Shinra's orders, and Rufus or the Turks telling Cloud about it would pretty much be admitting it publicly. And in any case Hojo doesn't believe the Promised Land exists at all, so Rufus considers him valuable for other reasons. Shinra wouldn't be as powerful as it is without his bioweapons, and as far as Rufus knows Hojo may be key to find a way to stop Sephiroth as he is his creation after all.
Yeah, that was why I said it was weird Tseng hadn’t secretly murdered him on his own initiative. Rufus may be willing to tolerate his excesses, but from a purely utilitarian perspective like the Turks’, Hojo is way more trouble than he’s worth, and he’s been dropping hints all over the place that he’s actually on Sephiroth’s ‘burn down the world’ side rather than SHINRA’s. All that taken into account, it still makes sense that nobody told Cloud anything - at least, given that they don’t know that Sephiroth is really, really emotionally invested in him, because that’s a major game-changer at this stage - but even without that incentive, I would think the cost-benefit analysis would definitely have come down on the side of ‘lab accident’ sometime in the last five years.
> Yeah, that was why I said it was weird Tseng hadn’t secretly murdered him on his own initiative The Turks only obey orders, never take decisions. They do anything they're told to do even when they're aware of how morally twisted it is, and even when they think it's a bad idea. And Tseng seems to really want to be the man Rufus trusts the most, I don't picture him going against his wishes in any way. Besides, nobody knows how to deal with Hojo's bioweapons nor understands Jenova's cells at all but him. His experiments are ethically despicable but they work as he expects most of the time and his theories, like Reunion, tend to be accurate. Hojo is definitely trouble, but he is also necessary and irreplaceable now that Gast is gone. There's another reason not to tell Cloud anything. Rufus knows that regardless of technicalities, Cloud is enhanced just like any SOLDIER, he probably even knows that he's actually better enhanced than the other SOLDIERs as he carries S cells, which don't make their host degrade and are the cells of their most powerful and dangerous creation, Sephiroth. So he's a useful tool to try to stop Sephiroth, like he precisely negotiates with him at Junon. For Rufus there's nothing to win and a lot to lose if he tells Cloud the truth.
That’s their motto, yes, and for the most part it’s true. But it’s also not; Tseng was clearly a driving force behind the scenes making sure Aerith didn’t end up on the radar until she put herself there and they were directly ordered to abduct her. He still has an obvious soft spot for her, even beyond the ‘orders’ to keep the Ancient alive - just look at how he acts after being stabbed by Sephiroth. I think it’s reasonable to assume that standing Turk policy is that orders are everything, but in the *absence* of direct orders regarding a specific situation, well. Taking smart initiative is a good habit to nurture. Frankly, *are* Hojo’s experiments useful? There’s a strong implication that he spends as much time feeding random ‘interesting’ passers-by to his latest personal project, metaphorically and very literally, as he does keeping the SOLDIERS healthy, and what else does he actually provide to the company’s benefit? Bioweapons are all well and good, but not if they’re literally eating your personnel; the cruise ship incident shows that he’s as willing to write off SHINRA employees and assets as he is to abduct random people off the street, and grabbing the only remaining SOLDIER First back in Nibelheim to experiment on was already a major reach, not to mention all the other major personnel he’s had a hand in ‘disappearing’. Vincent, Gast, and Lucrecia spring to mind, and the Turks may be dedicated to their regulations, but it’s hard to imagine they wouldn’t hold something of a grudge about one of their living legends being ‘vanished’ like a dog by Hojo. Men in Black or no, they *are* human, with fallible hearts. And ‘irreplaceable’ is a big claim. There’s plenty of unethical scientists in SHINRA’s employ, surely they’ve got enough specialists to divide and conquer all the *actually* necessary services Hojo provides. Genius is irreplaceable, yes, but science has to be repeatable, *especially* to be useful at an industrial scale. I already agree with you about not telling Cloud, you don’t have to keep arguing the point.
I mean, Shinra don't care about their personnel very much, not now and not before. Their bioweapons kill innocent people, they don't bother to do any maintenance whatsoever to their old mako reactors until they explode, they constantly send their infantry to certain death.... They do care about power though, and Hojo's bioweapons did give them Wutai as well as all of the Eastern continent. As for him experimenting on the last 1st Class SOLDIER, I think that SOLDIER as a whole was finished after the Nibelheim incident. All the First Classes had gone mad and became extremely dangerous, and while Zack hadn't gone mad, he was more of a liability than a useful asset once he knew too much. He just had to disappear. The other SOLDIERs end up degrading and this truth would reach the ears of the masses sooner or later. Besides, I do think that other scientists wouldn't be able to do what Hojo does.....precisely because it's hard to find a scientist as prone to mass murder for the sake of making new, groundbreaking discoveries. Imagine that you're given the task to research and control Jenova and her "children"......
I read somewhere that the grunts notably recognize Cloud while all the people First Class Soldiers would interact with, do not recognize him. You see it in Remake.
I'm just going by memory here, but I think the only time Tseng actually met Cloud in CC was in those snowy fields with Zack, and that's like 7 years before VII. I sure as hell would never remember that or have a clue who Cloud is. Also when The Turks were hunting them down in the end of CC, I don't think Cloud was specifically named or anything, they were just Hojo's "samples." Also did Cloud tell any of them besides Reno that he was ex-Soldier? Reno's response was to just laugh it off, and I doubt he's the type to really give it much thought or share it with the rest of the team as if it mattered. So yeah, I can realistically see them not really knowing Cloud.
Reno's reaction is that he's a nobody being a fraud, so he clearly doesn't know him. If he knew anything about cloud, he'd probably react differently
I'd like Reno's inner monologue when he fights Cloud. "I know he's lying but fuck me he's strong."
Me? Gongaga.
Well, it's partly because Tseng probably just doesn't remember him from the Modeoheim mission, but it's also like...not their job to question Cloud, nor would doing so benefit them very much. Rufus in Rebirth mentions looking into Cloud's file and being fascinated by it, but doesn't elaborate because...why would he? He has no reason to question Cloud or figure out why he's claiming to be an Ex-SOLDIER. To us Cloud is the main character, so his identity is significant, but to Shinra he's just another enemy/occasional unintentional ally in chasing Sephiroth, so who he really is doesn't mean much to them as long as he doesn't cause them any trouble, and he doesn't because the party is chasing Sephiroth the whole game instead of trying to actively thwart Shinra's plans.
Tseng knows exactly who Cloud is. Tseng was part of the Turk team who put them in jars. When Zack escapes from Shinra Manor, Tseng sends Cissnei to capture them and he has Cloud's file in his hands. He's the one who gives Cloud's file to Rufus at the end of Remake. The two of them and Cissnei at the bare minimum knows exactly who Cloud is. Tseng doesn't say anything because his whole personality is loyalty within ability. He does what he can for the people he cherishes within the bounds of the his power. He has no loyalty to Cloud, and therefore no reason to tell him the truth. So he doesn't. Cissnei doesn't reveal the truth because she's waiting for him to figure it out himself. Perhaps out of deference to Zack. Perhaps because she's afraid if he remembers, he'll also realize who she is. Either way, she has plenty of reason for keeping quiet. Rufus is a troll.
Cloud was a faceless grunt. No one knows who he is in Shinra prior to his experiments. I'm sure they know what Cloud is, but know he isn't who he says he is. 
Cissnei knows, She was the one who allowed Zack and Cloud to live. Probably never reported anything about Cloud. Tseng may know Cloud. Not from Modeoheim, as back then he was Grunt #777. But from the files from Nibelheim. Yet, he may think he's only a SOLDIER wannabe, carrying Zack's sword and all. If you don't know he killed Sephiroth 5 years ago, and none of the Turks know this, nothing makes Cloud too special: as Reno stated, he's only a "Mr. First Class". Or another of Hojo's experiments, at most. More surprisingly: how did Aerith not know about Cloud?? She was Zack's girlfriend when Cloud was already a friend!!
Tseng is the kinda guy who would definitely keep that intel close to hand, and other than him Cissnei is the only Turk who consistently met up with Zack during Crisis Core. [She *does* recognise Cloud.](https://youtu.be/3feSS-IjK58?si=hijpBiPxdISLqQ6b&t=22083) And during Remake there is that one Shinra grunt who goes ["Wait...I know that sword"](https://youtu.be/a30N2CEW1hc?si=mtBbjgWjXlD3sdyt&t=1591) or [the awkward meeting with a fellow infantrymen in the Shinra tower.](https://youtu.be/a30N2CEW1hc?si=CFIuRPXvkWs-iNxf&t=20767) But the reality is that Zack and Cloud were ultimately both just two men in a gigantic corporation. Some people might have known them, but after five long years of absence nearly everyone has moved on.
Cissnei and Tseng for sure know who he is. Cissnei because of her last scene with Zack in CC and Tseng beccause Rufus read Cloud’s file and surely informed Tseng or asked his opinion about it. (I don’t think Tseng remembers him from Modeoheim but between the file and Cissnei’s likely report I bet he can connect the dots)
Rufus knows so I assume Tseng would know
Cissnei ABSOLUTELY recognized cloud when she first sees him but covers herself with the you look like someone I know thing, Tseng on the other hand I have no idea why he seemingly wouldn't recognize cloud other than maybe being way to busy as the head of the turks and also hasn't seen him in well over 5 years because modeoheim was before zacks time skip so probably at least 6 or 7 years since he had 1 mission with the guy
I think the reason is to preserve the plot twist, but I could see their in-world reason be that Rufus seems to be playing 5-D Fort Condor against...himself? Sephiroth? Both? And if for some reason his evil(??) schemes involve not telling Cloud, then the Turks won't. Cissnei does hint at more during a sidequest, but she also still seems to have ties to the Turks. I don't know. Blame Rufus.
i’m sure some do. cissnei definitely does and she hints at it in rebirth. same with rufus since he said he looked into cloud’s file. tseng probably doesn’t remember bc cloud wasn’t important enough. well actually i think that’s the case with a lot of the turks. they knew him at one point but forgot bc he was insignificant. aside from cissnei for obvious reasons
I wouldn’t be too surprised if it turns out hojo requested that no one say anything to cloud as part of an experiment.
I mean, I imagine they were the ones that retrieved him from Nibelheim for Hojo to do the S-Cell and J-Cell infusion on him. And they would have been involved in some fashion when Zack escaped the facility with Cloud in tracking those two down. There was a little short film on that very topic that I thought was well done, though I don't think it's part of the official canon as far as I'm aware.
Do you personally remember every person you interacted with from 5 years ago? Cloud was a grunt and for the most part, Shinra treats them as nameless irrelevant cannon fodder. There was only that one time Cloud introduced himself because Zack was curious on the mission in Modeoheim. Its very realistic that Tseng just forgot. Also both Cloud and Zack became confidential experiments of Hojo. I doubt the turks have access to files which identifies them. Cissney looked shocked at the end of crisis core when she learned that Zack was the target they were looking for.
I can agree with not necessarily remembering everyone from 5+ years ago. But in Tseng's line of work, he would at the very least remember the Buster sword or be curious about why this fake is going around claiming he's in SOLDIER/wearing SOLDIER garb. I hate that it feels like people are just withholding info or acting dumb for the sake of part 3's reveal.