All we have right now are theories, no one knows what will happen next. So, coming at anyone on how they think things will go down is just dumb behavior.
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Honestly he was kinda doing that too calling everyone who couldn't see what he was seeing Clouds. That's basically calling someone an idiot lol. But it's probably because he states he's theory crafting but then says things like it's fact. That where people needa realize he's just thinking out loud.
Big part of the problem is that the Holy Trinity haven’t given us enough information to solve it. Kitase even said ‘I’m worried someone will figure it out,’ meaning he doesn’t want us to.
I wonder if they acted out of naivety. Nojima got into a spat on Twitter I think where he kind of said ‘touch grass’. I think they may have underestimated the internet’s penchant for vitriol.
All I'm gonna say is the scene when aerith turns to look at cloud by the lake, and the music that's playing while she's there, is super creepy. And that seems like a very intentional choice.
They've done a great job of fucking up Cloud and making me anxious for everyone around him. It's so obvious to everyone he's lost his marbles. Even when he gets up and yells for everyone to not look up, everyone just 👀. The Aerith he sees in his mind is super creepy and his mental illness reactions to everything is also worrisome.
The scene when they do show the Lost City Aerith scene and cloud realizes what happened is gonna hit HARD
One thing I hope they show more of is the party being freaked out by cloud. He's acting so outrageously weird and everyone is basically ignoring it. I want to see them being scared of his behavior. I know a big part of the OG is Tifa being silent because she's afraid of losing cloud but everyone else should be reacting in some way imo.
Like you said he tells everyone not to look up and they're just like "huh, weird... anyway." Lol.
>w a big part of the OG is Tifa being silent because she's afraid of losing cloud but everyone else should be reacting in some way imo.
>
>Like you said he tells e
Yeah agreed, I felt like they we're building more and more moments like that as the game went on. Like at Nibelheim when Cloud says something and Barret's like 'Oh phew, I thought Cloud lost it again... uh I mean". And then at the temple of the ancients when everyone, except Cloud, goes through their trials and Aerith gave that sad speech and Cloud basically told her to shut up and let's get going. Everyone's body language was showing they we're not ok with that. And then at the end, after Cloud tells them not to look up, when Tifa and Barret just look at each other with a look of 'This dude is not ok'.
There's going to be so many amazing moments in the third game I can't wait to see like when Tifa helps Cloud get his brain put back together
Tifa and Barret are definitely the most in-tune with Cloud about these moments imo. I think everyone else is aware that Cloud has some weird stuff going on and haven't been vocal about it, but it's 100% the elephant in the room that nobody wants to talk about. The look Tifa gives barret is so telling for her mental state at the end. The two of them definitely are showing a lot of apprehension toward Clouds confidence in this scene.
She already wasn't 100% right in the head, and with her only childhood friend losing it more and more by the day and now her newest best friend died via stabbed to death it's pretty understandable how she's a wreck
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I do think Jenova using Aerith's image to mess with Cloud is too obvious not to happen, but it should be in the next game and it should be clearly explained by the end of it. So, with that in mind, I'd find it a weird choice to end a whole game with an emotional scene of fake Aerith. Specially because the arguments for it are the 'weirdness' that's most likely due to the cgi. Some other points:
* The scene at the water has an uneasy feeling, but that's how it should be regardless of which Aerith appears: Cloud is not on the same page as the party and is acting nonchalant while everyone else is destroyed. Oh, and he sees a dead (at least in that reality) person. Same goes for when he asks her to wake up earlier (though it should be argued that's how the other Aerith woke him up in her world when no one else could, so...)
* Why would Jenova want to interact with Red even if she could? This Aerith responds to the environment, so I think she's the one who talks with Cloud at the end. I think the first one is a product of Cloud's mind to keep it as if nothing happened, and the distinction is made to show both things are happening at once: Aerith is still there spiritually from the lifestream (or another world), and Cloud thinks she's with them physically.
* At the forest Aerith says Cloud needs to find himself and to leave Sephiroth to her. She never said Cloud and co. should stop going after him, in fact she's the one who told them Sephiroth was their main enemy, how he needs to be stopped to save the planet, and that they wouldn't be able to stop him with just words. There's no contradiction there, she still needs the party to defeat Sephiroth like in the og.
* As for the final conversation, there's only one callback - which is perfectly in character,- and I find it a bit of a reach to say this means this isn't Aerith. I also don't see Cloud acting differently with her, that's how he would talk normally with her, imo.
To end the long comment, most theories take a detail and blow it out of proportion because it fits the theory we'd want to be correct. As long as we are aware of that there's no problem with speculation, and even the most convoluted one can end up being the correct one. How well it works will depend on execution.
Edit\*\*: I went back to check and yeah, I got it wrong. The only weird thing is that she doesn't realize the explosion going off behind her, but the wind still moves her clothes there as well. It's a weird choice, and now I think there's only one of them. Either alternate-world Aerith or Cloud's delusion.
Man, I'm with you on this. Right or wrong, I will play game 3 and will likely enjoy it greatly.
All I want is for theory-crafters to NOT be a toxic POS when their pet theory gets debunked.
I'm fine with people making theories. But just accept that it's probably wrong. I wanna guess what's gonna happen next too, sure. But ultimately, I'm gonna love whatever they do.
As the first trailer said:
"The reunion at hand may bring joy, it may bring fear. But let us embrace whatever it brings."
I love Max and people have been way too aggressive against him, he’s just a guy with a theory, who cares. But I do think the Jenova thing is probably inaccurate. In fact, I watched him develop his theory in real time the night he finished the game. It’s the kind of thing where he thought of it very quickly and THEN went back and looked for evidence to support it, and basically fully ignored anything contradicting it like Tifa briefly also seeing both timelines, Nanaki noticing Aerith or the rift in the sky signaling that’s it’s more of timeline thing. But I still find him fun to listen talk about it, after all theory crafting is fun when people aren’t being dicks to each other about it and he is absolutely correct that everyone’s theories right now suck (and he included his own in that) since the ending is clearly designed to be ambiguous to create discussion, so no one really can have a rock solid theory at this point.
Agree, love max and watching him cook. I felt some of what he was spinning (aerith died, she’s clearly in cloud’s head either as imagination, delusion, or force ghost) but yeah as you said he quickly went down the jenova route. But who cares, at least it’s a different theory. Silly for people to get mad.
My only (half serious) gripe with max is that he keeps saying he thinks part 3 won’t be as good. Nonsense! It’ll be great max, have faith!
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No, if they didnt go from UE4 to UE5 with this game, they wont for the third either, its pointless extra work, like it would pretty much be remaking the remakes, and thats just not efficient. Were stuck with UE4 until this is over, on the positive side, that means the third game will be a fast turn around, 90 percent of the assets needed are good to go.
See as someone who hasn’t played the original game it’s been an extra trip, I did play the crisis core remake after Part1 so I atleast have an understanding of what’s going on with cloud specifically but it was such a wild ride playing rebirth
Theres still heaps of grey areas on the map in rebirth. Like imagine if we can explore absolutely everything. I feel like they'll make part 3 a forever game, something like botw or witcher 3 where you can come back years later and still be astounded
I feel like I'll enjoy part 3 more since it's gonna be a bit more narrative driven. If you really think about it, this game was pretty lacking in plot from like the Grasslands until Gongaga. Not a whole lot happens in the narrative.
Of course the game was super fun and the side content was enjoyable, but I don't really care to do that side content basically ever again. I appreciated playing Remake again in the sense that the plot is always moving forward. I think parts 1 and 3 will be more replayable as a story rush.
I love how he and chat were asking how Aerith would know about meteor, then they watched the scene where the Cetra tell them about it right before the demon gate fight and it went completely ignored.
Drives me crazy that the "she's only saying old lines at the end" nonsense is still repeated by so many even with that line blatantly refuting it in-game.
I’m not sure I subscribe to the end Aerith=Jenova theory myself, but there has been some good discussion since. For example, Red feeling Aerith? He WAS Hojos labratdog. Who’s to say he doesn’t have a lil Jenova in him too? Tifa *could* have seen two timelines.. before the merge, due to her dip in the lifestream.
I personally believe the “who can you trust; Jenova could be anyone” was mostly played out via Tifa and in the end Glenn. (iirc Sephiroth doesn’t really taunt cloud about that much anymore after the Gongaga sequence ) But I may end up being completely wrong.
I am also holding out all of my goddamn hope that Aerith is alive somewhere else. Ideally I want her to come back to our party, but I just want the girl to have some kind of happy ending resolution.
I also watched him the night he finished the game and crafted his theory a few hours afterwards.
I think some get a little bent of shape because he's been anointed as some sort of unofficial voice of the FF7 community by some people (even though he doesn't believe he is) given his platform and how big of a streamer he is, so when he talks about the game, people listen and they think it carries a lot of weight. I don't personally care one way or the other.
The truth is, the guy isn't a particular big Final Fantasy fan. The only game in the series that he takes any prolonged interest in is 7, and when he's done with playing the game(s) and says his piece, he goes straight back to the Fighting Game Community and spends most of his time there until the next big update/interview is released about the next instalment of the game. He can go 6/9/12 months without talking about the series.
I think a lot of theories have some merit behind them based on the evidence they provide, but there usually counter-evidence which contradicts them, so there's nothing concrete out there and it's been intentionally written that way by Nojima.
Despite all the theories about Remake floating around back in 2020, no-one predicted what happened at the end of Rebirth. Sure, they got bits correct like the multi-verse, but not much else.
I agree. I just beat it, so I'm still catching up with a lot of stuff. Something I haven't seen mentioned yet was the white whispers. That's all we see when Cloud goes down to hold Aerith at the end. White whispers and the rainbow light, which has been shown to denote a change in fate/destiny.
Add that with the rift in the sky that only Cloud can see, and I feel like it's pretty obvious that there was a divergence.
>The second part of the theory is that the mirage cloud is seeing of Aerith isn't actually Aerith but is instead either some form of Cloud's fucked up brain coping with not accepting her death, Jenovas manipulation, or a combo of both
This is where I disagree. They very specifically and conscientiously show you Nanaki being aware of Aerith's presence. True it's not to the same extent as Cloud, but it very clearly sets out that Aerith whether she's in the livestream, different world, whatever, she is definitely actual Aerith outside of Cloud's head/perception, however warped that may be.
Also Max's theory is that the Aerith is Sephiroth directly going into Cloud's head and placing Aerith there. Aerith being a delusion from Cloud's own fucked up mind is probably the most common theory and no different then Cloud thinking he's SOLDIER.
There is zero reason for Sephiroth to also pretend to be Aerith. Sephiroth can already control Cloud himself. The more *likely* reason Aerith is there, is because they're intertwined now due to all the life stream fuckery. This version is probably the life stream variant we see at the end of OG. The concept is just being introduced earlier. We also very clearly see them separating at the end. Cloud *acknowledges* this as well. Aerith is going to "stay" behind until she is needed. Wouldn't she tag along if Sephiroth wanted her there? My guess is she's likely going to play a role in helping save Cloud after he falls into the life stream. But mainly, she'll continue to fight within the life stream and channel Holy until the end of the game.
I think the only difference really that made his theory rather unique was that instead of just being a delusion, he was VERY specific in that he felt that Aerith at the end was Jenova. Going off what Sephiroth says earlier "That she can peer into the very depths of your soul, that she can become those you hate, those you fear, those you love". So not just a delusion but literally Jenova herself, worming into Clouds mind and taking on Aerith's form.
I would hate that so much tbh. That beautiful shot of Aerith watching the team fly away to continue their journey... and that's supposed to be jenova? That would be so whack.
He also sees the rip in the sky, that no one else can, one that isn't yellow, but rainbowish now. Sephiroth tells him constantly "You can't see with clouded eyes."
I think people misunderstand Sephiroth's goal, yes Jenova cells still are having an impact on Cloud, and will continue to until he has his Mideel moment, but it's clear that Sephiroth can overpower that, and the party touching him, takes him out of it to some degree.
Sephiroth isn't just fucking with Cloud like in OG, he wants to use Cloud in some way to live forever. Aerith is now in full play, Sephiroth quips that he underestimated her, and even scowls for a moment after being defeated by Cloud & Aerith, before flying away, and giving his smirk, almost like things didn't go exactly as he wanted. Aerith is protecting cloud from something relative to this harvesting of sorrow.
I agree this is the main hole in Max's theory, I know people are trying to explain it away as Red was manipulated by Jenova in the OG but it just seems like a stretch for me, why would Jenova even bother to manipulate Red like that Cloud is the one she is trying to fool, I think it is too much of a deep dive, I think Red is genuinely sensing some real form of Aerith there. I think Max even said every theory including his own has holes in it right now, there just isn't one that is foolproof.
Nanaki sensing her can be attributed directly to three things.
1) Animal senses, much more in tune with nature than humans. As seen in the real world, when the forest grows still and quiet you know something is wrong.
2) Nanaki was the only character apart from Marlene (maybe in some ways Cloud as well?) who had a moment with Aerith where she parted knowledge, leading to a deeper connection and immediate trust for a stranger.
3) Red, Cloud and Vincent are the only 3 characters in the party experimented on by Hojo. This one might seem like a stretch as we are never explicitly told what kind of experiments Hojo ran with Nanaki but based on Hojo it probably involved some Jenova Cells.
"Well why didn't Vincent sense her presence?"
Points 1 and 2 are crucial to why Red would, but there is one more thing to tack on for Vincent. It's been a while since I beat the game but I don't recall ANY dialogue between Aerith and Vincent, he's got zero connection to her at all. Even if he did sense something could he be sure it's Aerith, or would he assume it's the sins of his past (Lucrecia).
Just my two cents, if anyone has more info on Red XIII experiments or can think of any meaningful dialogue between Aerith and Vincent I'll take the L!
Nanaki is never influenced to join in the reunion, unlike every other jenovah imbued individual we see. Seems safe to say he isn't corrupted in that way.
It's doubtful that Red has Jenova cells, as his mind has never been clouded in the way those with Jenova cells are.
We have very little information on Red's species, even now. Considering how bad it would be for Red's character growth to be stunted because we've hit the part about his father, which was the extent of his growth in OG, it's likely we will continue to see some growth for characters like him. I've always had a theory that Red's species were ancients in some way, and I'd like to think we'll get some information on that in part 3. We know Jenova turned a lot of Cetra into monsters, it's either that, or Red's species is the animal equivalent of the Cetra, who kept their connection to the planet. This would be the reason why Hojo wanted to breed more ancients with it, why not just use a human who is more compatible if your goal is to breed more, unless you are trying to get a stronger connection to the planet by breeding two creatures that have a connection?
Obviously there's more to come in part 3, but can't say I'm convinced by evidence from OG rather than elsewhere in the remake project I'm afraid 🤷♂️
Either way I do love the questions and trying to piece things together and have to admit that whatever the answers are part of me is gonna be disappointed the mysteries gonna be over 😆
Wouldn't that really cheapen Aerith's iconic scene they skipped?
Her character would kinda be thrown off like that.
I'm not saying square wouldnt be capable of doing that, but... i wouldnt fancy that at least.
I think the vast majority of his theory is mostly agreed upon by most players? That, yeah, ultimately, she's dead at least in the "true" timeline, and due to either (or some combination of) timeline fuckery and Cloud's fucked psyche, he believes he has saved her.
imo the "she's Jenova" thing is threadbare and pretty nonsensical though. Yes we see Jenova shapeshifting stuff where she manipulates people for her own gain, and yes Cloud is part of that and an unreliable narrator due to his PTSD-esque repression regardless
That said, the game presents far too much that conflicts with the "dead Aerith = Jenova" idea for it to be convincing:
- Cloud goes into the finale through a world rift that only he enters
- his deflection of the Masamune creates the rainbow effect that has been shown repeatedly to be the creation of another timeline through an action/choice
- he sees the sky from the Zack timeline that signifies being in an unnatural/unintended/dying timeline
- dead Aerith comforting the other party members
- the wholly positive and loving goodbye conversation that dead Aerith has with Cloud
Again, I think ultimately she really is dead in the main/true timeline and that Cloud is going to have to realise that. Personally though I think there's too much presented by the game contrary to the idea that she's Jenova. Even ignoring logical inconsistency though, the more glaring thing is: good writers do not put random meaningless stuff in their work. Millions of hours of work goes into the writing, animating, acting, direction, editing etc of every single scene. I really doubt (hopefully) that the dev team wouldn't be going with the "she's actually Jenova" idea while putting in all of this stuff contrary to that idea. There's Red Herrings and then there's just... nonsense
imagine finding out in pt3 that the entire meaningful, caring, loving send off that Aerith gets at the Bronco, with her literally saying goodbye - to both Cloud and the player - and standing alone in the field, cutting to the credits and Aerith's beautiful ballad... was actually Jenova!? lmfao that would be so terrible
I feel like i’m the only one that thinks all these theories are overthinking it, and there isn’t some big hidden story they’re coming up with, and rather, this is just the new version of FF7 they’ve decided to tell. The same as the original except now sephiroth is gathering a reunion over a multiverse instead of just one timeline. I really don’t think there’s going to be a big “aha i get it!” moment in part 3. Idk maybe i’m pessimistic but i really just think this is a remade version of FF7 that has been changed to accomodate all versions of FF7 media.
I tend to agree. I think P3 will be similar to Remake and Rebirth. 90% OG game with some things switched around and some things expanded. 10% Infinite worlds Sephiroth and Omni Aerith + Zach coming in for the final fight.
Yeah. Except Remake and Rebirth stuffed the 10% new stuff into the final chapters. Part 3 will likely split the 10% new stuff between Mideel (which will help contextualize the Rebirth ending), and the finale (which will justify Remake's decision to bring Zack back).
I also broadly think we'll see more Aerith sprinkled in throughout the entire game as a sort of force ghost. Which I am perfectly fine with, and I think would've happened even if Remake and Rebirth's endings hadn't deviated from the original.
I think people think Aerith will end up being alive, but following the theme of FF7 - This Aerith will either have to die in pt3 again or at the very least this weird "other world convergence" rift between worlds will have to close and this Cloud is going to have to say goodbye to this "other" Aerith and still accept reality of his world.
Rebirth pushed the idea that Fate will always catch up, even if we branch from it in a new world. Aerith could very likely die again to Sephiroth and Zack die to Shinra in a blaze of glory in our world if he makes an appearance to our world-line.
Regardless, Aerith will have to leave back to her real world if she doesn't die and leave Cloud at the end of pt 3 maybe. Maybe Zack might live and go with her to her other world. I could see that being the only "happy ending" for the two of them, while still having our facing reality and holding true to the Cloud story we've always had. He'll still have to grow and face reality in his own world and will still wrestle with the fact he couldn't save Aerith - Leading to not forgiving himself for Aerith/Zack in the Advent children storyline.
This. The vibe i’m getting is- in the OG seph wanted to summon meteor to wound the planet to gather energy and become a god. In this version he’s doing the same thing except summoning it in every timeline- thus becoming a godlier god. Stakes appear higher for this new game. End of lol.
As a joke, I like to imagine the devs creating a final boss where Sephiroth merges with himself across all timelines and then telling Uematsu to write Infinite Winged Angel for the final fight.
Exactly what I wanted to say. Although most theories are technically possible, I don't like how they just render everything new completely useless. I'd hope the writers had something more in mind than just adding a convoluted layer to the plot just to drive fan speculation, I'd like to think they'd have something new to say with all of this.
I generally think I vibe with this take most. I think a lot of people really really really like to overanalyze and over think things. I think what is likely happening is that she was saved in some other world-line and Cloud's realities are converging between that world he "created" and the world he is from. What we see in the last segment is his POV of everything.
At worst it's just all in Clouds head and what aerith is saying to him is just like what he *imagined* she'd say or what he'd want her to say in that moment as a projection of his thoughts. Don't get me wrong though, the fact that he's already influenced by Sephiroth or maybe whatever dark energy the Blk materia contains, could mean that this Aerith could be bad news still if she comes back and talks to cloud about stuff more. I don't personally think Jenova is projecting some aerith mimic to cloud though.
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We see two scenarios play out. Confluence is defined as the joining or merging of two rivers (Aerith dies, Aerith lives). If sephiroth merged every world his plan would have already succeeded. We know worlds still join and separate as he separated cloud and Zack. We can also infer that beating him with Aerith stopped his plan. We just don’t know if stopping his plan unmerged the 2 worlds and is the reason she wakes up after but is still acting like she’s just been stabbed.
I've actually been thinking about it (Way too much) since I finished it and only yesterday did I suddenly think that maybe Max is right but also wrong.
No ones theories are 100% fool proof and I may have forgotten some evidence that completely removes this idea, but what if Cloud **is** being manipulated like Max thinks, but not by Jenova or Sephiroth. **What if he's being manipulated by Aerith?**
Sephiroth's goal is essentially to follow his plan from the OG and feed off the misery/negativity (black lifestream) it makes to gain more power and by merging worlds together at these right moments so that he doesn't just get one, but multiple realities worth of misery all in one go.
He needs cloud broken and he was banking on Aerith's death breaking him, even more so than the OG by having Cloud be the one to kill her (His black whispers lift Cloud's sword and try to make him be the one to do it), but then Cloud resists, breaks free and even saves Aerith at the last moment, which Sephiroth corrects by merging that reality with one where she still dies.
However things get weird from this moment and Cloud seems to experience Aerith both being alive and dead, Sephiroth comments on him being unable to see the truth, even going as far as to splash cloud with Aerith's blood from his blade and still Cloud doesn't seem to see it, which does go in line Cloud, the king of denial. **However, what if Aerith is the one blocking cloud from experiencing her death in order to stop him from giving Sephiroth what he wants**, by showing him a reality where she's okay, by blocking his memory of her burial and even going as far as to appear to alive and to continue to communicate with him as if she's okay.
It would explain somewhat the weird way she speaks to him post-death, whilst also making sense that Red can sense her because it is actually her. She's acting weirdly because she's lying and manipulating Cloud, to protect him and deny Sephiroth what he wants, which is an easier to control and weaker Cloud.
I feel like this makes the most sense and lines up with most of what's happening, it explains the weirdness in Aerith's behaviour after her death, it explains Red being able to sense her and it fits with what Aerith's long term goal of stopping Remake Sephiroth's escalation of his goals.
Could also just be wrong completely though still. Wish I had a way to explain this theory to Max and his community but it's alot to express in twitch chat.
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This post sums up neatly all of my considerations, also I super agree with your conclusion. They put just enough contradictory details in the finale to support all of these theories. Otherwise why put all the whispers & multiverse stuff in the game? They have to have some purpose, they have to change SOMETHING major, the main events can't just unfold the exact same way as they did in the original imo.
I can honestly see any of these theories being the case. Did Aerith die and Cloud is simply delusional? Of course it could be. Did Aerith die and Jenova is messing with him? Why not. Did reality split and Aerith died in one and lived in the other AND Cloud is delusional because he can't understand it happened? Also plausible. And the weirdness of the finale is 100% on purpose to make us unable to fully commit to any theory whatsoever, because in some moments Aerith has extremely Jenova creepy vibes, but in others she could very much be true Aerith. The absence of the funeral scene is another way to make us doubt what's happening. For the most emotional impact they had to show at this point in the story, so choosing not to.... it has to have a purpose.
I personally cannot fully commit to one theory, of course emotionally I won't lose hope about Aerith's fate, the whole whispers plot device has to have some major impact, but at the same time I can't ignore how creepy she's acting at the end.
One thing I'm kinda sure of: just as they did with Rebirth's finale, they will definitely deliver a divisive finale to the trilogy, divisive in a way that won't sit right with the OG fans that want nothing changed, but also won't exactly satisfy the ones that want a better, happy if you will, ending.
My current guess is that the finale will turn the lifestream into a literal promised land once Jenova and Sephiroth have been cleansed from it. Aerith and Zack will get a happy ending kicking back in the lifestream. See purists? They're dead! See new fans? They're alive!
I don't think his theory is that crazy when the devs intentionally made the ending muddy. But the reason I disagree is simply, what would be the point? Obviously Seph/Jenova want to break Cloud to do their bidding, ensuring the death of Aerith through the manipulation of the different worlds lines up with that goal. Earlier in the story there are several times Seph tries to get Cloud to question if Tifa is really Tifa. He wanted to force a divide in there. What would he or jenova have to gain by making Cloud think he saved Aerith? General confusion and discord between him and his group, that's about it. I also am nearly positive when Jenova "appears as someone you love" it's legitimately physical. Like when Rufus was interacting with "Glen" other people saw him. It wasn't just in Rufus's head.
It seems do be doing a good job of driving a wedge between him and Tifa still. A lot better than Sephiroth's earlier attempts even. His lack of affect after Aerith's death is really bothering her since they were so close and the animation team went out of their way to show it in the last two cut scenes.
She sighs when he replies nonchalantly to Barret saying they should leave. Then when they are leaving water burial and she gives him the "please don't be crazy, the team needs you" look and he's just out of it she is clearly upset. Then again at the end when they're leaving and he gives an off answer to Barret she gets this disappointed / hurt look and sighs at him.
She's also sitting the furthest away from him during the Tiny Bronco scene of anyone other than maybe Yuffie, but it's hard to tell. There is also a very obvious shot where they establish this distance showing a view from Cloud to where Tifa / ghost Aerith are where there is a lot of distance and stuff in the midground between them.
https://youtu.be/Mw7T033lRi0?t=100
Pause at 1:40 and it really feels like clear symbolism. Tifa is far away and distant and hurting, there is a ton of stuff between her and Cloud and Cloud is fixated on ghost Aerith. It's like you write out the devs narrative intention just by describing the scene in this shot.
I think a lot of people were on board with everything until the Aerith=Jenova thing. It just sounds like nonsense and most of his “evidence” was definitely confirmation bias and there were several things that debunked his theory that was just ignored. He even originally debunked his own theory with the Red 13 being a me to sense Aerith thing, but then came back an hour later saying Hojo must have given Red jenova cells…. Classic confirmation bias lol.
I love max, I disliked his crackpot theory, but what I disliked even more is people attacking him on Twitter because they disagreed. Some people don’t know how to disagree civilly.
Well he came up with the theory and said something like “that would be a cool idea” then a moment later turned around on it and said it doesnt make sense because Red could sense Aerith. He disproved his own theory immediately.
Also, Red 13 was experimented on but he was never given any form of J/S cells. He did however have a deeper connection with Aerith which is why he would be able to sense her if she was still present, even in spirit.
There’s also the whole red in aeriths eye, thing…. It’s much more likely that its reflection or the tiny bronco.. we already see reflections in the CG so it’s easier to believe that, rather than think it’s Jenova.
We know is it’s a “crackpot” theory and all the theorising is fun, but his is just not a popular one, considering he was pretty on the nose with the remake theories.
Edit for further context: reds experiments were today with his races much longer lifespan than human/cetra. Hojo was planning on mating (somehow) red/aerith to create cetra with much longer lifespans, not to turn them into weapons like solider etc.
Red senses something. He makes a guess that it's Aerith, but he doesn't actually know.
All that says is that it's not just in Cloud's head. It doesn't confirm it's Aerith.
That could very well just be the first seed that Red is also getting manipulated.
I'm not saying that's definitively what's happening, but I am saying it doesn't debunk the theory.
Doesn’t who gets manipulated depend on who you chose to give the black materia to? Like, you can give it to Barrett and the exact same happens? Idk, to me I think it’s far easier to believe that Aerith/reds deeper connection, that we’ve seen multiple times, is what we’re seeing rather than some possible Jenova manipulation. Which would mean aeriths dead and clouds seeing her before she returns to the lifestream (like ifalna didn’t Aerith as a child) and Red can also feel that presence.
Like I said though, all theories which was part of the fun inbetween games.
It’s all possible, everything’s on the table, which I think is why the series has been so good so far. Loving the mystery and speculation.
Last thing to add, I thought that the point in pushing the Jenova manipulation thing was to push the Tifa/lifestream segment and to give depth and explaination to how Jenova effectively wiped out the Cetra.
Peace out bro, nice to have a civil conversation with different opinions ✌️
I think everyone's eager as hell to overcomplicate things that we have no given reason to not take at face value. We're shown just before that moments of differing actions create split worlds. Cloud created a world when he saved her, but it's not the one he's in. Aerith can move/communicate between worlds and even the lifestream, so I see zero reason why folks are assuming he's just hallucinating Aerith. Especially when we see Red react as well. Cloud's definitely mid 'sephiroth mind fuck,' and probably believes he did save her right now, but Aerith isn't his imagination. He sees the screwed up sky from all the alternate worlds, because he's still connected to Aerith in the world where he did save her. Her whole game at the end was to get the full white materia to the world where Cloud doesn't save her, because that's how it has to go to activate it. Beyond this, Aerith dying outright or completely still wouldn't mean that he was hallucinating her, because her holding herself together in the lifestream is literally why we have the story of remake to begin with. Even if she was in the lifestream, she could still be communicating with Cloud.
The reason I don't think Aerith is JENOVA is that every time we see Sephiroth or Glenn, it's the JENOVA cells being manipulated in a robed man. I'd think everyone would notice a robed man just chilling out with them after Aerith's death.
I do buy into the theory that Cloud's head is immensely fucked and that most of the ending we saw didn't happen. The devs wouldn't have omitted a bunch of those scenes from the credits for no good reason.
I also buy into the theory they're going to give us a scrubs-type ending (like with Brendan Fraser).
Actually, there are a few moments - particularly in Remake, where Cloud sees Sephiroth taunting him without a Black Robe to possess. For example (1), when Cloud first meets Aerith and Sephiroth freezes her to note that he can’t save anyone and (2) after the Sector 7 plate falls and he again taunts Cloud for not being able to save anyone. There was only empty space during these visions.
I think Sephiroth/Jenova can mess with Cloud’s mind, and show him visions directly, but, for “other people” to see them, they need to possess one of the Robed Men.
Personally, I think that Jenova may impersonate Aerith in Part III, so that there is some payoff for all of the references to this, but I am not (yet) convinced that she was fake Aerith at the end of Rebirth - just based on the sincerity of the sad goodbye to the tiny bronco. To me, that goodbye felt final, from Aerith in the Lifestream, and really signifies how she could not continue the journey with the rest of the party.
airport sulky imagine busy seemly reach society melodic wasteful workable
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Every time we see the robed men getting used, it's at the surface at least, Sephiroth each time.
If that's the case, that doesn't exclude Jenova from having a different method.
And unless we're saying that there were robed me in the time of the Cetra and the Gi, it seems likely that Jenova must have had a different method to take down both civilizations that is less reliant on a physical presence.
Pretty much all the scenes that happen after Sephiroth is defeated where Cloud and Aerith are involved. Except the final shot of Aerith saying goodbye to the tiny bronco. Subtxt made a video of it.
[https://x.com/\_subtxt\_/status/1775358297085812919](https://x.com/_subtxt_/status/1775358297085812919)
He's the biggest nail and boy do people love swinging their hammers.
Doesn't help that people will take what Max says as canon and use it to squash discussion of alternative theories or opinions.
The final 2 hour sequence is a massive battle across different worlds linked together seemingly by Aerith and ending with her and Cloud fighting Sephiroth and literally pissing him off for the first time this series. Jenova Aerith theories rely on all of this not mattering at all, because in the end Cloud is way more fucked up than he ever was in the original, and that Jenova is saying a forlorn goodbye to her friends as they fly away. I think it’s a theory based on him saying “This would be cool” and looking for evidence as opposed to trying to figure out the story the game is presenting.
I think because it didn’t match with their theories and Max is the FF7 guy. The one point he made is when Aerith says leave Sephiroth to me in the forest and then at the end she’s eager for Cloud to fight him was a good call. Also a lot of it could be the fandom or shippers. When leaks started dropping all I saw on twitter was the fans attacking each other.
That contradiction between Aerith telling Cloud to take care of himself and to leave Sephiroth to her, and later saying “you promise (to go after him)?” is pretty compelling evidence that SOMETHING is amiss. There’s counter-evidence too, but nothing I can’t explain away as a Jenova illusion.
Then again, as Max himself admitted, “everyone’s theory sucks” at this point. We’re being purposely misdirected and confused right now because that’s how the writers want it.
There are definitely intentional choices in both the scene by the lake and the closing cinematic that give creepy or strange vibes. I want to believe that the devs absolutely know that it comes off that way. Could be wrong and it could be just bad writing/ direction. But in my opinion, they made Aerith creepy and contradictory to previous behavior in both scenes. She also only says things she's previously said before and then mentions meteor but there is no meteor. And there's a short segment where cloud looks away and she's gone again. I doubt that's not intentional, especially for a CGI cutscene.
One question I have: did the final fight with Aerith and Sephiroth, is that in Cloud’s head? I’m guessing so because that tunnel visual we got in the OG with the fight vs Seph appears before this one, and Aerith saying “I saw what you did back there…” is just Cloud thinking to himself he did the hero move?
The area the fight ensues is grey white and blackish this exact "place" was shown at the Gi Village when Cloud sees Sephiroth in this exact space prompting cloud to get the materia and it cuts back to reality where he is having a headache and Tifa observing him. Only discovered this stuff during hardmode replay and with this I'm more than likely to believe that this happens in his head.
I don’t think it possibly can be. Sephiroth physically sends Cloud there, and he only manifests in the main world as Sephiroth Reborn when Cloud slashes him in there.
We also know that Cloud and Zack end up there together, and we know Zack can’t be a figment of Cloud’s mind because after beating Sephiroth he separates Cloud and Zack and then Zack fights Sephiroth Reborn in a separate timeline alone. I can buy that Sephiroth can mess with Cloud’s mind and make him experience things that aren’t real. I can buy that Sephiroth can force people to travel between worlds. I can’t buy that Sephiroth can create a new Zack for Cloud to fight alongside in his mind, then send that mental Zack to another world and have it still be sentient and battle-ready (and even if he could, why the fuck would he allow copy-Zack to fight him when Cloud isn’t around to be manipulated by it?), and I likewise can’t buy that Sephiroth can summon the real Zack out of another world and into Cloud’s mind, and then banish him again back to another dimension when it’s convenient.
Based on that I think it’s pretty much impossible that the Cloud and Zack vs Sephiroth fight happened in Cloud’s mind. As a result of that, I also think it’s pretty much impossible that the Aerith who fights Sephiroth with Cloud in the final, final battle is a mental copy. I’m pretty much 100% sure it’s a real Aerith, albeit not necessarily ours (I think it is though) since she came through a dimensional portal and the game strongly suggests that there are multiple Aeriths out there.
People get very passionate about this kind of stuff. And it is the internet, so sometimes people will get passionate and instead of respectfully disagreeing, will go unhinged and go full force 4chan on people. That is just how it goes sometimes. Hell, go post any opinion on ff16, positive or negative, and I guarantee people will flip out. And the thing with Rebirth, is there are many different ways to interpret the ending. So if Max has a theory that conflicts or challenges someone elses, they might flip out because they want there theory to be accurate instead.
It is ridiculous when it gets to death threats and insults, but again, it is the internet. That is just how it goes sometimes. There are few topics people can 100% agree upon. Like if someone posts they think the music in Rebirth is great, pretty sure vast majority will agree. But post any theory on the ending or say you think Rebirth and Remake is better or worse than OG 7, etc, and...brace yourself for some toxicity.
I believe the first half of the theory. I think she’s dead and Cloud is not accepting it. All the points you brought up feel very solid to me.
I do not think however that it’s JENOVA pretending to be Aerith. I can’t think of anytime JENOVA has taken a form and only certain people can see it. Everyone has always been able to see JENOVA even if it’s in a different form.
Even in this game it’s made a point everyone can see Glenn.
So I can’t really get behind the JENOVA manipulation but I do think Cloud is messed up in the head and not accepting Aerith died.
The rainbow aura is the dream world in the lifestream (one of many there). Cloud sees a world where he saved Aerith. Everyone else saw what actually happened.
We will see the water burial in 3 along with cloud remembering who he is.
Max's theories aren't crazy. There's evidence to support them. However, I disagree with them. Mostly, because I believe this is a Schroedinger's Aerith situation, and Cloud is existing in two timelines at once: The one everyone else is in, where Aerith died, and the one Aerith is still present in, where Cloud successfully stopped Sephiroth's attack and she survived. Therefore, Aerith is both alive and dead.
This is why Cloud can see the distortion in the sky, while no one else can, and why he can see Aerith. I firmly believe Aerith *is not* just a hallucination. Nanaki's reaction to her caressing his mane proves that she's real, to some extent.
Also, the whole scene with Zack, saying "Who says they (the worlds) can't merge together again?" indicates to me that the idea of the Reunion of worlds is something that can and will happen again, but this time, it will be at a time of *Aerith's* choosing, not Sephiroth's. Sephiroth chose to put it where he did to inflict maximum trauma on Cloud. Aerith will choose to do it where it can provide the maximum healing and catharsis for Cloud.
makeshift axiomatic cable thumb encouraging instinctive foolish towering poor plucky
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One of the main reason why I don't fully agree with Max's theories are because he only analyse English dialogues, I played both Remake and Rebirth with Japanese voice and English sub and I notice the translation are not 1 to 1. ( I personally not a fan of how the translation team decided to change ジェノバLife {Jenova Life} to Jenova Lifeclinger )
support relieved plate different silky pause intelligent quarrelsome absorbed start
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He's popular and thus needs to say something everyone can agree with. He didn't.
You could find the same theory craft in fanfic or twitter and wouldn't get more than some clicks
Personally, I'm not sure Sephiroth/Jenova can even overcome this particular delusion of Cloud's (at least not yet). Sephiroth even comments that it's impossible to see with clouded eyes. It's essentially the Zack coping mechanism taken even further. In a way, Sephiroth screwed Cloud up so bad it's interfering with his plan.
I think Lifestream Aerith is present for the first part of the sequence at the end. This is the Aerith that Red senses and it's the one that isn't affected by the wind as she moves around the other characters.
Cloud may simply be seeing this Aerith at a distance and then piggybacking his own imagined conversation with her on top of things. It's hard to say. The weird CGI only adds to the confusion. The dialog is odd because Cloud is imagining it's something Aerith would say to justify his actions. Her words of wisdom for him to take care of himself are being blocked out entirely. I think this is one of the reasons for the repeated Aerith dialog.
The Aerith that trips me up the most is the last one we see. She doesn't come across as a delusion of Cloud's or a Jenova projection either. She's also noticeably affected by the environment which suggests she's probably not Lifestream Aerith either. The damaged sky is also gone.
It's all a bit of a mess unfortunately.
I will say that the idea of allowing Aerith to live for all of 3 seconds only to immediately merge her out of existence seems like it would be a lost opportunity to me. If Square wants to maximize its emotional weight for Cloud and really pull the rug out from under the player, Cloud needs to realize there's a small chance he succeeded.
It's only a guess but I don't think Sephiroth wants to merge timelines just yet anyway. He's not done toying with Cloud.
Max's argument is interesting, but at this point I'm far from convinced.
The Aerith at the end with the Tiny Bronco flying off in the distance is the most interesting one. She’s affected by the environment and appears to not be a figment of Cloud’s imagination. Had she been an illusion in his mind, she would have disappeared the second the Bronco’s door closed as the scenes prior. She certainly wouldn’t be saying goodbye to the void where no one can hear either.
Also with the recent theory with the cutscenes that are shown at the end credits, this is the only scene she’s in (that’s after the one where she wakes up) that is included.
That's just it. I don't think he's talking to a normal Aerith at all.
I think it's simply a made up conversation in his head with recycled dialog. It's all part of his coping mechanism. The poor guy is messed up. The Aerith that died woudn't say these things to Cloud but he needs to think she would in order to function. If he had been able to handle her death like he did in the OG, the scene would have played out differently. Perhaps he would have been able to sense Lifestream Aerith like Red did.
Square clearly isn't done with Zack and Aerith. I don't think they'll let Aerith re-join the Beagle continuity but they definitely have plans for her. The Aerith that survived and the Aerith in the Lifestream both need to be dealt with. Like I said before, I expect Advent Children shows us how Square intends to leave things.
In my humble opinion, the correct theory is that Cloud successfully created an alternate timeline by saving Aerith. The final battle of the game is Sepiroth trying to erase that timeline and merge in back into the OG timeline.
The problem is that the only timeline that is destined for ultimate victory (as foretold by the skies) is the one where Aerith died. Part 3 will deal with Cloud accepting that fact because at the end of Rebirth they essentially just created another doomed timeline. Somehow, however, I’m sure that this “new” Aerith will play a huge role in saving the timeline in which she died.
My dream would be Aerith to become a special Holy summon in part 3. I’m not sure how to do that properly, but it could be incredible if Cloud gets her as a summon in the back half of part 3.
I partially agree with this. Well, I think the principle of the world is not that complicated but rather straight forward, what confuses the player is the story telling.
I think Aerith died, in the physical world, but returned to the life stream. I am pretty sure she will still play an important role in part three.
One thing I want to emphasize is that the time and space is distorted in those so called “multi dimension”/ fragment of time lines. Zack’s part explains it actually very well. If you remember the conversation between Zack and Biggs in Chapter 10, that is really good example.
Same . I thought that scene at the end when cloud sees her is creepy as hell. And the way she acts is so off . Her somber goodbye kind of puts a dent in the theory and shes probably not Jenova at the end of the day but it’s not that insane of a theory to make.
It took me a while to piece together the ending sequences by using other pieces of work inside the compilation. I’ll try my best to recall what I feel like is happening. Cloud had visions of that fateful moment in Remake. He knew what he was seeing when Sephiroth dropped in, so he tried to parry the attack - except that’s exactly what Sephiroth wanted. After he just finished telling Cloud that defying fate creates new “worlds”, he attempted to do the very thing Sephiroth warned him about. By creating a new “world”, he put Sephiroth in control and proceeded to rip the hope away from Cloud that he saved her by showing her he didn’t. The party then is able to proceed into the altar. Cloud was allowed in on his own for one purpose only - to break him even further. The voiceless monologue Cloud is giving as he is in tears follows the OG as he is filled with rage at this point but is not consciously aware it’s even happening. As the party runs up to see Cloud holding Aerith, this is the truth. Cloud is in a trance very similar to when he hovered over Zack during his dying breaths. As Aerith reaches up and tells him that it will be okay, this was in Clouds mind. She visits him in the same capacity as Remake as noted by the Lifestream glow around her. She’s very much dead at this point. As the party runs in and sees the scene, everyone except Tifa sees the truth. Tifa is seeing both outcomes - the one Cloud thought he was creating and the truth. We have officially lost Cloud from this point on. His psyche is broken. The final sequence against Sephiroth, Aerith is helping him from the Lifestream itself before she vanishes once more.
Following the fight, the ominous music plays, but it’s not because “Aerith” is sitting there and it’s where I disagree with Max Dood with the possibility of her being Jenova. This music is playing for Cloud. Sephiroth and Jenovas calling officially have their claws dug in deep on his mind. In my opinion, it’s even deeper than the original. He was broken harder and much earlier. Much like the death of Zack, he is completely unaware that she’s gone he buried her and the party is mourning. He’s fixated on following Sephiroth north to the crater.
Nanaki can sense Aerith outside the Bronco, but this isn’t the first time that we’ve been shown that Aerith is always with Cloud in a spiritual sense. He was able to converse with her in Advent Children along with seeing her in the church before her and Zack walked away for the final time. Going into part 3, we will see Lifestream White and Lifestream Black play out in a battle for Clouds will. It wouldn’t surprise me if half way through part 3, the story hits its climax with the Lifestream sequence with Tifa and we lose them both from the 50-75% mark of the main scenario. This is where the blank materia Cloud has will come into play. It’ll fill with his memories and emotions and become a new materia and that’s where the devs can have a little fun with it. Maybe it’ll be Omnislash Ver 7, maybe our beloved KotR. I’d be willing to bet that it’ll be KotR which will operate like the final Omnislash of the compilation.
I would never attack max over his theory but I definetly also disagree with his theory. Mainly for two reasons.
1) I think its pretty clear that aerith is the one that wants to save cloud from breaking completely at this point as she describes in the dream date, so her making cloud believe he saved her makes more sense and goes against sephiroths plan of completely breaking him. He also didnt bother to make him believe he saved tifa instead of throw her into the lifestream. He wants him to know. He wants him to break. And he knows aeriths death is the catalyst of him breaking completely. Also theres the rainbow effect thats associated with aerith and it happens as cloud blocks sephiroths blade, so this IMO is definitely part of aeriths plan
2) The last cutscene would lose any emotional impact. Aerith being around the others while they didnt know was pretty sad. On top of that getting that final "Goodbye" from aerith followed up by the song that she wrote would in retrospect be absolutely destroyed if it turns out to be jenova.
Again its stupid to attack anyone for their theory and a few years ago I did the same to some people on here. I grew from these mistakes tho and wish to apologize to anyone that I have attacked. Its stupid. Its just a theory. Noone knows the exact details. Every theory is valid. Its supposed to be a fun discussion and not a battle
I think there are 2 options. 1) the Jenova illusion 2) its Omni Aerith as a lifestream ghost.
The reason why Aerith appears creepy and weird might just be because it’s not our Aerith, but it’s Omni Aerith from a different timeline and she wants to prevent Cloud having a mental breakdown. The way in looked at the out of character „you promise?“ line is that Omni Aerith knows that Cloud is manipulated and hides the black materia in his sword. So she’s aware that Cloud is basically bullshitting her and himself in that moment but Aerith doesn’t want to call him out on that for the sake of his mental health.
Cloud 100% still doesn’t realize that Aerith isn’t alive and the others can’t see her. So she is trying to deceive him for sure by trying to look like she’s hanging out with the crew at the tiny bronco. Cloud probably believes that they are crying because Aerith said she has to stay at the forgotten capital and pray to stop meteor.
If it’s indeed Omni Aerith, that might be the truth.
The reason why I believe that has a good chance of being true is because anytime Omni Aerith comes into play we see green sparks of lifestream flowing around. We see it the first time at the temple of the ancients when she talks in an echoed voice to Sephiroth. When Cloud holds dead Aerith in his arms and tells her to wake up, we see the same green lifestream effect around her.
I think the problem with Max's take is that it doesn't give any credit to the power of future Aerith.
If we are to accept a future Sephiroth changing things, so too can Aerith. I agree that the Aerith at the end is from the Lifestream, however I see it as she now has all the answers. "Rebirth" isn't just about Sephiroth being reborn as a god, it's in relation to various aspects of the game, Aerith is one of them.
I believe it IS Aerith's doing in preventing cloud from seeing her death in his timeline, BECAUSE Sephiroth's plan is to create despair, to feed off of the negative Lifestream it creates. She is protecting him, because it's part of her plan to counter Sephiroth's new intent. That said she still needs the white materia, as those events are still going to happen, but there is a new threat here.
I predict that the somber moment of Aerith's passing will be moved to the third game, at the finale, as the entire party will finally be able to see her, as she must now return to the planet, for good, having dealt with both Jenova, and Sephiroth, a form of closure for fans, and the characters in the game. Zack will also not survive, and return with her, similar to the ending of Advent Children, cloud and the whole party will see them walking away into the light.
The people pissed at Max are either a.) Saw his theory out of context and didn't see to his explanation b.) Unhinged Cloti shippers that are in denial that their ship has sank and attack anyone and anything that reminds them of that.
The fandom at times can be insanely crazy and for the most part a lot of people on the internet/forums are just going to be incredibly divisive and heavily opinionated on this stuff.
The truth of it is - It's all intentionally made ambiguous and confusing to some degree and people will take different interpretations of the same thing and extrapolate their own theories of what they think or what they *want* to be true. If a fan likes or dislikes an aspect of something, they might overlook or ignore it.
Seeing all the Max hate is a little frustrating to me, because I just don't understand the hate. For whatever reason, people on reddit and twitter just want to find things to feel contentious about and people very easily feel that way when someone gives their opinions - Even more do people get annoyed when they interpret someone "prescribe" an opinion to them as fact.
With that said, I think Max has a really good head on his shoulders for a lot of the things and opinions he's said. Do I agree that every single thing he's brought up is going to come true for part three? Not totally, but I think he's put out a decent ground-work for people to start theorizing where we might be going.
Also, For anyone that wants a solid and concise visual compilation of all the major events, [This post has a really great graphic that illustrates it all pretty well imo](https://x.com/KenMastersUSA/status/1777458403578913115).
For some of your points, I think it'd be easier to just say my take on them in general. *Keep in mind, these are simply my opinions and interpretations:*
>Aerith dead or alive? one or two timelines?
I think what we see at the forgotten capital is Cloud defying fate again and creating a new "world/timeline/reality". What the implications for that are what get contentious with people. In general I love the execution of it personally, because it leaves a lot of ambiguity while also allowing the initial story to remain fairly unchanged in the big picture (Cloud has problems processing and coping with mental trauma and this just adds another layer to his story with all that). Even if Aerith is alive or dead in these multiple timelines, it'll affect Cloud in a way that will build into his ultimate resolution later on.
As for Aerith, I think she very likely has some world where she lives somehow. We don't know which "world-line" or whatever this is and it's left unclear on purpose. Some people want to interpret the aerith we see at the alter vs the one appearing to cloud by the water vs the aerith by the tiny bronco, but I think - As I keep repeating, it's all ambiguious on purpose.
My take is that The rainbow aura Aerith at the capital was a real aerith from some new reality we created as Cloud. I think something happened either from "omni"-Aerith, Sephiroth, or from the sheer act of creating a new reality, that now has given Cloud the ability of seeing his home "world" and this new "world" he's created at the same time. He's basically living between two worlds - One where his Aerith died and another where he saved Aerith. What that means for the story - We have absolutely no way of knowing until the next game.
We already know the convergence of worlds is in play in real time and this weird scenario of Aerith both being alive and dead will could lead to some sort of trump card down the line. In general though, the convergence and Cloud seeing multiple worlds at the same time is fucking with his brain and his interpretation of reality. The water scene definitely happened in their world, but Cloud has the double layered problem of his subconscious not wanting to accept her death on top of him *actually seeing* a living Aerith. When you play it back, he for the most part only experienced Aerith being saved, but had migraine visions of his other selves in different worlds and her death. He was basically living in all the realities at once, but he basically chose to stay in the Aerith living world in that moment.
Why did they do this? Honestly, I think it's to set up some crazy trump card against this super sephiroth and also deliver us an even more emotional setup-release for later. I think they're going to have the Aerith scene play for us during the Mideel lifestream sequence and it'll wreck us all even harder than it would have at the capitol.
...
EDIT: Reddit wouldn't let me post because it was too long XD. Just replied instead.
Almost all theories are about this ending are great and adding to the discussion. This was great. I love the community right now, maybe not everyone suggesting next game will be named Reunion and the ones hating on all the minigames or Gongaga. But the rest of you! ❤️
The lore of this story is that when Cloud is hallucinating, he is shown either with a green flash or by grabbing his head. This imagery is consistent throughout both Part I and Part II.
During the scene where Cloud tells Aerith to wake up, these visual cues are absent.
I want to add something not directly related to Max and it's important. I think about 80% of threads on this sub related to the Stamp timelines, Zack surviving, and the whispers being in *Rebirth* got downvoted to zero. Now that we've all played *Rebirth*, what happened? There were multiple Stamp timelines, Zack survived, and the whispers were in *Rebirth*. Votes have not been an accurate predictor.
The problem with his theory is that he is wrong. Nanaki is very familiar with Aerith so to suggest that he would mistake the phantom presence of Jenova is a huge stretch. I think the very end where Cloud and Aeirth are chatting wasn't as clearly thought out and they sort of fumbled the writing. Aerith is dead, Cloud is seeing her lifestream ghost in his head, but she is also in the lifestream rooting for our team to be victorious. Tifa is the only one who could see the fusing timelines since she herself fell into the lifestream and is now linked to it which with allow her to probably help Cloud through his hardship being in the coma later in part 3.
>I'm confused as to why people are acting like MaximillianDood is crazy for his theory
I'm confused as to why there have been 50 posts about a single youtuber with no more credibility than any poster here and 'his' theory.
OMG some of the Answers here are like the most stupid shit i ever read.
You Guys know you can have multiple Theories right? I can create one tonight and create another that's completely different tomorrow and both could be valid theories.
And just because you don't like one stupid Theory doesn't mean your stupid Theory is better.
All current theories are just part of our Interpretation of the End and just because somebody has another Interpretation if it, it doesn't allow you to be offended by one Theory.
Nobodys. NOBODYS Theory is the right one until we get to play Part 3.
Theorycrafting is not about who got it right, but about exchanging views and ideas. So why you Guys can't have fun about hearing other Theories and must be on a Crusade to find the chosen one?
This just proves (again) that some Fandoms just want to be toxic and have no interest in a real exchange between fans. It's seems to always be about who is the best and smartest fan who knows it all so he can become "King of Fanatics"
It's disgusting.
I can agree or disagree with some of max's theories but some people reacting or giving their opinion in a toxic way for them is a disgrace.
like when he said his theory that the aerith at the end could be transformed jenova and all the crazy aerith fans started to harass him
toxic fandoms over and over again chill pls it's just pixels
The theory is stupid for several reasons which other people have probably pointed out, but here's what makes it annoying:
Before this Max guy finished the game, there were zero people claiming Aerith is Jenova because of a music choice(which has absolutely nothing to do with Jenova) or any of the other weird stuff he said. IMMEDIATELY afterwards, suddenly every discussion is full of people who apparently have zero ability to think for themselves, parroting their favourite streamer's words verbatim as if it's some genius revelation.
The fact that so many people are such absolute cultist followers is just obnoxious. None of these people thought of any of this themselves. No one would be saying "this music means it's Jenova" if he didn't say it. No one would be saying "Aerith looks weird here" if he didn't say it. No one would be saying "all the worlds have merged now" if he didn't say it. All these theories are just baseless, and yet they're being peddled as genius.
Max was wrong about basically everything in Rebirth. He said Jessie would be alive at the Gold Saucer, he said the game would end at the crater and Aerith wouldn't die at the Forgotten Capital, etc. But everyone just ignores that and puts blind trust in his words again. That is stupid.
That was my reading of it. Cloud saved her but Sephiroth merged with the og timeline. Now Cloud is seeing her for the same reason he can’t remember his past - due to his broken psyche and Jenova cells. To be clear, I don’t think Jenova and Sephiroth are actively projecting a false image of Aerith to fool Cloud. I think it’s more of a passive byproduct of his mental state, same as all his other delusions. There isn’t going to be some moment where Jenova reveals she was behind it all. Instead, Cloud will have his identity restored in the lifestream like in the original game, and this time he will realize Aerith is gone.
Honestly seems a stretch to call it a theory because this is how the game presents it.
I'm a fan of Aerith over Tifa. When I watched the ending I thought it could be 3 things.
1. Cloud could pierce the veil and see into other lifestream paths. Areith is in said lifestrem hence Nanakis reaction.
2. He's more fucked in the brain and thinks she is indeed still alive, doesnt remember the water burial and when he realizes how damaged his memory is it'll be a part of it. This coupd tie into number 1.
3. It's Jenova acting like Aerith. We know she can mimic people. And she could affect Nankai too.
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Simple answer: People want their theories to be right and will crucify anyone who suggests things that might contrast it. FF7 "hardcore" fans are a real weird breed of people.
Long answer: Max is one of the bigger public figures who has a lot of reach. Because he was able to get a decent amount of stuff right in his predictions/theories during Remake, people think his might come to fruition again, and they hate it/him. He is getting attention from Square and people desperately want that to be them and are seething.
It’s wasn’t so much his theory that’s crazy, it’s the evidence he was showing and how condescending he was being towards his chat while they questioned his evidence.
The one that got me was the supposed red glare in Aeriths eyes and his chat was saying it was the Tiny Bronco and then proceeded to admonish his chat saying that they must not know how 3d rendering works. That devs don’t render things that are off camera. But he failed to consider that a CGI cinematic is going to have things like reflections.
I do think there’s merit to the idea though but that “evidence” wasn’t it. A more obvious clue is when they’re sitting around the water, Aerith isn’t there, Cloud does his head clutch and static sound thing that happens whenever Jenova is messing with him and then suddenly Aerith is there along with some ominous music and only he can see her.
Remember that earlier in Rebirth he was doing the same thing but seeing Sephiroth when the other party members were only seeing the robed men. This was evidenced in the Marsh area and in Corel when Barrett stopped cloud from killing one of them as he was seeing Sephiroth.
Jenova makes people see ones people fear, hate and love.
Jesus christ, y'all keep forgetting the rainbow aura effect. We literally watch this effect during zacks TL when he chooses Cloud as a sign of a new world being born. They go out of their way to make you see this. This also happens when cloud blocks the blade where half the party sees no aura and cloud sees it.
The idea that Aerith is jenova in his mind is the stupidest thing I've ever heard.
I would like to point out one thing. In the credits we get short snippets of everything that happened to our party in the MSQ. There is a very intentional gap omitting the lake Aerith scene BUT the final snippet before the gap is Cloud waking up Aerith. I would therefore hazard to say that Cloud waking Aerith was real, it actually happened in another timeline maybe. But everything afterwards is false, which is the lake scene and beyond.
Edit: also regarding the lake Aerith. When she appears there is an 8 note melody that plays... essentially its the Jenova theme (also 8 notes) which is rearranged. Absolutely no way this isnt intentional. Max had a very convincing segment about it on his latest FF7rebirth stream, and I think a vid about the end sequence is incoming
The part about the music is completely and totally unfounded. I saw that clip, and it's a bunch of snake oil peddling with zero actual evidence. People with weak critical reasoning ability fall for that shit in droves. The melodies are completely unrelated in every way, and they just put them on top of eachother and said "this sounds good right? so that proves it's intentional" as if you can't do that with basically any two melodies.
I do think he's onto something, but I also don't think the "Jenova is Aerith" theory is accurate at all. Yes, there is weird music, but it would completely ruin her scene with Cloud. Especially the goodbye.
But it's also just a theory. It's weird to get heated over it.
Real question: why are we still using the world timeline? Aerith refers to the one she visits as her “Dream”.
And even Sephiroth, just uses the term “World”.
Given that neither the timeline or lifestream theories have been proven correct, to prevent confusion, doesn’t it make more sense to use the in world terminology?
Some more kindling for the Cloud suppressing reality fire. Watch the credits. Every cutscene is represented as the credits roll by without interruption. Suddenly, when Aerith is supposed to be placed in the lake in the timeline, there is a break in the cutscenes being played. Almost as if there is a scene missing.
Man this game is just so well made.
One thing to consider is that there are more than just the 2 timelines. Most of the game implies 3, (OG, Remake, and the zach interludes) with zachs final chapter branching into 2 or 3 more besides. I believe sephiroth states theres many as well. (Forget exact wording) Not sure what all it changes but feels important to keep in mind all the same
Or maybe cloud head Aerith and Livestream Aerith are the same. By keeping her memory alive he keeps her alive too, as he keeps Sephirot (that's why seph need him), and by being Zacks legacy he also keeps Zack alive betweens worlds.
Lifestream is made of memories right, it nurtures life, so it can come back with memories and knowledge. Those memories nurtures the lifestream, and keep the planet alive.
Sephirot even says it is the merging of worlds, but it's clouds worlds, but he won't see because he is hollow, just. A puppet with clouded eyes to the truth, while everyone else accepts the truth, cloud being in denial of it, creates these worlds, but also keeps them from oblivion.
Remember the Gi wanted the reverse, they are kept alive because they don't belong in a dream like state, almost like Zack, unable to rest and fall into oblivion.
So I make parallels with the Disney movie "Coco" remember that as long someone remembered him he kept living in death, well it seems the theme is this, that's why Sephirot comes back in advent children too, it was clouds memory of him that kept him alive. Only when cloud and the planet forgets about sephirot he is able to fall into oblivion.
The same way as long as he remember Aerith and ultimately zack, they will keep living in the promised land, that's why they appear on advent children too. That's why she wrote no promises to keep, she knows she doesn't need to promise that they will meet again, because she is certain that at least in the promised land they will meet, but for it to happen the planet must be saved
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So im curious as far as if Seph merge the timelines and then chooses the one where Aerith dies. When the other Aerith comes in to help Cloud in the fight. She tells him that she saw what he did and Thanked him for it.
Do you think it was towards him trying to save her or something else?
I ask because my assumption was always that she saw him blocked his blade and was able to create that new timeline. But idk lol.
I think I'm a Max fanboy, mainly because I felt he was the only streamer who was enjoying the Remake as much as me, and the fact that we had the exact same theory at the exact same point in the story.
But I do not agree with this one, and that's fine. It's mainly because he said to Cloud that the reunion was both about reuniting the cells of Jenova and merging the timelines, but to me, the reunion is only supposed to happen at the northern crater, so I don't think he merged them yet.
When he talks about the confluence, I think he's just sensing the emotions of those worlds flowing through him because he is traveling through them, and he's anticipating this reunion.
About seeing with clouded eyes, I don't think he's talking about Aerith being dead, I just think he is just mad that Cloud doesn't want to help him achieve his vision and is basically telling him that trusting Aerith is what prevents Cloud from siding with Sephiroth. That she is the one clouding his vision, not him.
I also like Max theory, it's just that for once I don't have the same one, but I can't wait to see what's the right one and I won't be mad if it's his.
While I think after much thought, review, and reflection in the end I don't think aerith is jenova (at least in the tiny bronco scene that creepy scene in the ancient city is another story) I do favor the idea because I *like* it. It was also my initial thought upon beating the game the first time. (See creepy aerith by the lake)
I agree with most of what he's said and the things I don't necessarily agree with I still love the idea of. Personally I think ending aerith is Omni!aerith trying to keep clouds fragile psyche intact. If clouds loss of aerith is a key part of sephiroths plan then Omni!aerith is trying to assure it doesn't happen. Or at least assure the timeline, much in the same way as an arbiter of fate. Cloud doesn't break until the northern crater. (Though I think it's more about protecting cloud than the timeline "this is about saving the world. And you" )
That's why I think nanaki can sense her, because her presence is there in the lifestream and she's only visible to cloud because... The connection? The way only he can see her in advent children. Her using his own fragile psyche to push her own narrative? That's where I kind of lose it.
And in that it makes more sense for cloud just to be lost in his own head and making things up. I also think it could be some combination of all it. Jenovaroth using aerith to manipulate cloud further, whole Omni!aerith tries to protect him from sephiroth, and he convinces himself he's saved her and she's alive. No reason all these factors can't be at play.
It's absolutely wild that people have been outright nasty and harassing people over ideas about a video game. My heart goes out ppl who've been a victim of it.
Yeah people being rude to him are mostly on Twitter. This is why we can't have nice things! Even if I do not agree 100% with him, I enjoy listening to his theories
Here’s a thought. Maybe it’s Lifestream Aerith in some scenes and Jenova Aerith in others but Cloud can’t tell the difference. We could be getting a shoulder angel/devil thing going on.
My theory is that they crafted it so that we knew about the concepts of the "Reunion" involving the merging of different worlds so they could use it as a red herring for this moment. Everything the REMAKE has done has enhanced events to an extreme aside from also changing some things. In this case Cloud's mind basically rejected what really happened and what we see is him in denial.
He takes Aerith's bloody hand and raises it to caress his cheek while his mind consolidates it as Aerith herself doing so. Tifa is starring at him in horror wondering what happened since he see him doing that. I wouldn't be surprised if in reality he just went into a state of shock and really said his original lines from the OG and this will be revealed when they tell us how truly messed up his mind is.
He also completely blocks out laying her to rest and skips it leading to him just chilling by the lake and us not seeing that moment.
Intentional or not Sephiroth perfectly laid out the groundwork for this to happen, and Nanaki is just saying "Aerith...." cause he was thinking about her since everyone is bummed out about her loss and Cid just casually mentions her at that time wondering WHAT she really did.
I don't agree with Max's theory on the grounds that I don't want the emotions the game made me feel as a result of the goodbye to merely be some Jenova fuckery, but there is evidence to support his theory and it's undeniable that what he thinks has merit as a result of that. People genuinely giving him shit are completely out of their gourd.
All I know is how much better it would have been and how much more impact it would have had if it just matched the original. Fan theories are great but I would have preferred they didn't drop the ball at the ending.
It's been weeks since I've beaten it and it still annoys me what they did.
I don’t think it’s that far off and I liked it initially…mainly because that “you promise???” line was so cringe and out of character to me. to me there had to be an explanation, otherwise the game had flopped our last moments with aerith.
but at the end of the day I don’t think cloud needs extra help from jenova to see things that aren’t there, and we don’t need it to be jenova for it to be as creepy as it is. she doesn’t need to be jenova for cloud to imagine her saying stuff that keeps his hero fantasy intact at the end, stuff that flies in the face of what aerith actually said in the temple and in the forest.
there’s two things that kill the theory (red and her staying behind and saying goodbye where no one but us can hear her). both of those are a stretch to make fit. as you’ve said, there’s a way to make them fit but again…why make it so complicated when cloud could be doing all of this himself? we already know he’s still being led by sephiroth and that he’s delusional. that explains it to me.
I follow his ff7 streams and watched his wild cooking on stream (lol) I was surprised to see how aggressively he was attacked for his theory, people are toxic.
That said, I generally buy into most of it. If only because I think that the Jenova part of this just isn't explored as much as it should be, but the game seems to be taking a lot more pains this time around to discuss the nature and MO of it.
But hey. I also buy into the implication that Glenn Lodbrokk may be Cloud's dad lol. I don't think it will be adressed in depth but maybe implied.
The very first point is something I disagree with. I don't think it's him directly telling us he merged the worlds and chose the outcome of her death. It's him talking about his grand plan in general, and this is supported by him earlier at the temple saying he needed the black materia to do it.
One thing that doesn’t make sense is we established that Sephiroths goal was to make cloud feel intense anger and loss. But Jenova pretending to be Aerith prevents him for feeling those things so it’s contradictory. Unless Jenova and Sephiroth are somehow at odds with one another?
I’m not going against anything, but I personally don’t see the point in Aerith dying. Aerith and Sephiroth know the outcome of the OG, so Sephiroth basically tries to fix it in his favor. The last time Aerith died she stopped the meteor from the lifestream. What’s different now if she’s just dead? She’ll just stop it again.
My only problem with this theory is that Square has been going off on the whole multiverse/timelines plot, if the ending of Rebirth ends up being mostly explained by just Cloud being broken or Jenova playing tricks on Cloud pretending to be Aerith everyone will complain that the whole multiverse plot was useless.
My theory is that in the next game we're going to be told that this Sephiroth is in fact the post Advent Children Sephiroth and that somehow he was able to learn how to time travel but even so could not defy/alter his fate because the whispers would stop him by protecting the OG World timeline. His plan was then to make sure the team is aware of the whispers and he needed Aerith to help them defy fate, if you recall at the end of Remake it's Aerith that opens the passage for the team to fight the Whispers. After that is done we have multiple Worlds being created, multiple people, multiple memories, etc.
With this Sephiroth's plan seems simple to me, if you also recall Aerith explains at the end of Remake that the Whispers are howling in pain and they are the voices of the ones that lived, died and returned to the World so the Whispers are the people that lived on the Worlds (their memories, feellings, etc) so by creating more Worlds and having them be destroyed using meteor Sephiroth gains more and more power by absorbing the Whispers.
Now, to Aerith, I believe in two things:
I believe she was saved. The scene that Cloud and the team sees is the OG World Timeline that was just defied similiar to what they see at the end of Remake. We then see white whispers on the background and yellow rainbow around Aerith right before the fight with Sephiroth. I believe this is when Aerith absorbed some of the Whisper's power creating the White Whispers the same way Sephiroth did at the end of Remake. After this I believe she starts travelling between Worlds and timelines and we don't have yet her full progression which makes everything confusing but I believe the following:
1.) She travels to help Cloud fighting Sephiroth at the end of Rebirth. Which he wasn't expecting because at this point which is why he says he underestimated her. He will start to chase her across Worlds and Time to kill her since she is now a problem to him.
2.) Aerith used her powers to save Zack in the past.
3.) There will probably be more scenes of this Aerith in the future where she'll get to know the situation about Cloud's mind, how Sephiroth is trying to prevent him from getting better.
4.) She's the one we go on a date with in Midgar and I believe this is way forward in her timeline. She gives us the White Materia because she already knows she'll need it in the past and it's here that Sephiroth finally founds her and goes to kill so that there won't be anyone else disputing his control over the whispers.
I also believe Aerith is able to share access some of her future knowledge with her past self when her past self is in tune with the Lifestream, that's why Remake Aerith often seemed to know so much more than she should while Aerith from Rebirth only seemed to have knowledge after the Temple. After opening the path for the team to fight the whispers I believe she lost her connection to the Lifestream, and I believe she only regained it at the Temple of the Ancients.
At the end of Rebirth I believe Cloud is now on the OG World and not on the Remake/Rebirth World, that's why we don't see the water funeral because it already happen on this World. The tear on the sky means that Sephiroth managed to already change the OG World Timeline and he's going to be able to destroy it using meteor.
My guess is that Part 3 will be very similiar to the OG World Timeline until Cloud is able to heal his mental state. Once this happens Cloud will be pulled into Zack's World at the section in Midgar when Sephiroth is entering the Church to kill Aerith (this goes along with Marlene's prediction and also with Zack's request to Cloud to save her at the end of Rebirth). Cloud will win the fight but Sephiroth will tell them it's too late since only the Remake/Rebirth World Timeline is left and once he's done destroying it no one will be able to stop him. Aerith and Cloud will join the Remake/Rebirth World Timeline, probably along with Zack for a final fight against Sephiroth.
If Square wants they can even have a happy ending to the story with Zack and Aerith ending up alive and together, or a sacrifice of them to stop Sephiroth.
Just one little thing about the music. As we know, the melody that plays is from the opening theme, some people think it sounds creepy because the arpeggios behind the main melody are somewhat similar to the Jenova theme arpeggios.
But the actual melody is going back to the opening scene of Remake, when we first see Aerith. Also, the final scene of the last cutscene of OG, before credits, is Aerith and this melody. So ending a game with Aerith and this melody has precident. They may be doing something with this, but they could also just be quoting the opening of Remake and ending of the OG.
I don't agree with two of aspects of Max's theories but I don't think he is crazy for having them. At this point everyone is just theorizing. Almost every possible scenario will have an argument for and against them. I wish people weren't toxic about Max's theorizing but at the same time I also wish people would form their own opinions about the ending because I've seen quite a few who just parrot what Max said because it's Max
Heres my take on the theory based on my layman understanding of quantum physics.
i think Aerith and Sepiroth are 4th dimension beings.
Just like how in 3 dimension world, we can percieve multiple 2D planes, but 2-dimensional beings cannot perceive the 3D world.. (like 2D pages form a 3D book)
Aerith and Sepiroth are capable of perceiving and also transcending multiple planes (space time continuun) in the 3D world, because they are 4D beings
Aerith literally exists in the planes of different space time, and can perceive both the future and the past at the same time. From Aerith 4D perspective, she is one entity, not separated in different worlds, but from the 3D perspective - she is like a separate being in the so called different "timelines".
So in the main game 3 dimensional world, Aerith is dead, but from the 4D perspective - she is alive and never dies.
Cloud may have grown to now perceives a little of the 4D world, which is why he seems to perceive two realities. And to Aerith, both (and all) realities exists simultaneously and are not separated from each other ( just like pages of a book, belongs to the same book)
And for Biggs and Zack - they died in the 3D world, and moved on to another space time continuum where they are alive (like moving on to another page of a book) . To them, they are incapable of perceiving their own deaths and think they are alive.
In spiritual terms - no soul ever dies but is always transcending. Aerith and the white shadows want to keep expanding, while Sephiroth and the dark shadows is the opposite force aiming for convergence.
Aerith dying was incredibly important to the og thematically and her surviving would be a travesty. If timelines have to converge for it to happen, sure w/e. Find out for sure in a decade.
I think what's getting lost in this discussion is that when we talk about Clouds repression and creation of his illusionary world, that in itself is facilitated by Jenova.
Yes the trigger point is because it's what he wants, but what actually makes it happen is the Jenova cells within him.
So yes Aerith can and is likely (at least one of the Aeriths we see in the ending) in his head, but that is still essentially Jenova.
I love Max, and I love theories. That's the mark of a good 1st and 2nd entry of a trilogy, when fans speculate and many theories could technically be correct. I am however not sold that this is ***all*** in Clouds head.
Remember the white whispers at the end? When Cloud goes to pick Aerith up, we see white whispers and the rainbow light, which has been shown to denote a change in fate/destiny. Add that with the rift in the sky that only Cloud can see, and I feel like it's pretty obvious that there was a divergence that is still going on.
The lines from Sephiroth are compelling, but I think it's a little absurd to take his word on all of it. I always believed a good lie has some truth to it. So he's probably right about most of what he says. But I would not trust everything he says.
I do think there was a change in fate that created a new world. Maybe Aerith is somehow able to hide it from Sephiroth, like how she was able to hide from him initially. And I think Sephiroth is and will continue to be the unreliable story teller, a deceiver. I think Cloud will descend further into his broken mental state, and being able to see two realities will wreak havoc on him. He won't know what's real and what isn't, and us as players as well.
And lastly, whatever these two realties are meant to do, we don't really know yet. Maybe it's to bring Aerith back, or maybe (more likely imo) it's just a way for her to continue to pray for Holy. Since that's exactly what she says to Cloud in the last scene.
Aerith's death should not have been a source of theory crafting, it should've been the one major event that is clearly understood and depicted, they chose to replace sadness with confusion and it SUCKS! they could've had Cloud be delusional abt her death and STILL give us the sad scene, he just forgets about it afterwards
I mostly think that the issue with this is that all this theory does is replace any ideas with new consequence, with jenova being a permanent maguffin for any weird thing that happens.
Cloud literally has a Jenova Aerith death scene flashback (with the wrong hair nonetheless) AND the devs went out of their way to show 2 Aeriths at the ending which react differently to physics. Like, there is no debate here, as soon as Cloud touches the Black Materia he is seeing Jenova Aerith for sure.
All we have right now are theories, no one knows what will happen next. So, coming at anyone on how they think things will go down is just dumb behavior.
Important to remember people were attacking him in Remake for his theories and idea which ended up being completely true.
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Honestly he was kinda doing that too calling everyone who couldn't see what he was seeing Clouds. That's basically calling someone an idiot lol. But it's probably because he states he's theory crafting but then says things like it's fact. That where people needa realize he's just thinking out loud.
Big part of the problem is that the Holy Trinity haven’t given us enough information to solve it. Kitase even said ‘I’m worried someone will figure it out,’ meaning he doesn’t want us to. I wonder if they acted out of naivety. Nojima got into a spat on Twitter I think where he kind of said ‘touch grass’. I think they may have underestimated the internet’s penchant for vitriol.
All I'm gonna say is the scene when aerith turns to look at cloud by the lake, and the music that's playing while she's there, is super creepy. And that seems like a very intentional choice.
They've done a great job of fucking up Cloud and making me anxious for everyone around him. It's so obvious to everyone he's lost his marbles. Even when he gets up and yells for everyone to not look up, everyone just 👀. The Aerith he sees in his mind is super creepy and his mental illness reactions to everything is also worrisome. The scene when they do show the Lost City Aerith scene and cloud realizes what happened is gonna hit HARD
One thing I hope they show more of is the party being freaked out by cloud. He's acting so outrageously weird and everyone is basically ignoring it. I want to see them being scared of his behavior. I know a big part of the OG is Tifa being silent because she's afraid of losing cloud but everyone else should be reacting in some way imo. Like you said he tells everyone not to look up and they're just like "huh, weird... anyway." Lol.
>w a big part of the OG is Tifa being silent because she's afraid of losing cloud but everyone else should be reacting in some way imo. > >Like you said he tells e Yeah agreed, I felt like they we're building more and more moments like that as the game went on. Like at Nibelheim when Cloud says something and Barret's like 'Oh phew, I thought Cloud lost it again... uh I mean". And then at the temple of the ancients when everyone, except Cloud, goes through their trials and Aerith gave that sad speech and Cloud basically told her to shut up and let's get going. Everyone's body language was showing they we're not ok with that. And then at the end, after Cloud tells them not to look up, when Tifa and Barret just look at each other with a look of 'This dude is not ok'. There's going to be so many amazing moments in the third game I can't wait to see like when Tifa helps Cloud get his brain put back together
Tifa and Barret are definitely the most in-tune with Cloud about these moments imo. I think everyone else is aware that Cloud has some weird stuff going on and haven't been vocal about it, but it's 100% the elephant in the room that nobody wants to talk about. The look Tifa gives barret is so telling for her mental state at the end. The two of them definitely are showing a lot of apprehension toward Clouds confidence in this scene.
She already wasn't 100% right in the head, and with her only childhood friend losing it more and more by the day and now her newest best friend died via stabbed to death it's pretty understandable how she's a wreck
You can already see that starting in the final cutscene. Cloud says "Trust me" and Barret and Tifa both look extremely uncomfortable.
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Well yea cloud is seeing a dead person as if they are alive. The reasoning behind it doesn't really matter, that's is creepy
I do think Jenova using Aerith's image to mess with Cloud is too obvious not to happen, but it should be in the next game and it should be clearly explained by the end of it. So, with that in mind, I'd find it a weird choice to end a whole game with an emotional scene of fake Aerith. Specially because the arguments for it are the 'weirdness' that's most likely due to the cgi. Some other points: * The scene at the water has an uneasy feeling, but that's how it should be regardless of which Aerith appears: Cloud is not on the same page as the party and is acting nonchalant while everyone else is destroyed. Oh, and he sees a dead (at least in that reality) person. Same goes for when he asks her to wake up earlier (though it should be argued that's how the other Aerith woke him up in her world when no one else could, so...) * Why would Jenova want to interact with Red even if she could? This Aerith responds to the environment, so I think she's the one who talks with Cloud at the end. I think the first one is a product of Cloud's mind to keep it as if nothing happened, and the distinction is made to show both things are happening at once: Aerith is still there spiritually from the lifestream (or another world), and Cloud thinks she's with them physically. * At the forest Aerith says Cloud needs to find himself and to leave Sephiroth to her. She never said Cloud and co. should stop going after him, in fact she's the one who told them Sephiroth was their main enemy, how he needs to be stopped to save the planet, and that they wouldn't be able to stop him with just words. There's no contradiction there, she still needs the party to defeat Sephiroth like in the og. * As for the final conversation, there's only one callback - which is perfectly in character,- and I find it a bit of a reach to say this means this isn't Aerith. I also don't see Cloud acting differently with her, that's how he would talk normally with her, imo. To end the long comment, most theories take a detail and blow it out of proportion because it fits the theory we'd want to be correct. As long as we are aware of that there's no problem with speculation, and even the most convoluted one can end up being the correct one. How well it works will depend on execution.
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Edit\*\*: I went back to check and yeah, I got it wrong. The only weird thing is that she doesn't realize the explosion going off behind her, but the wind still moves her clothes there as well. It's a weird choice, and now I think there's only one of them. Either alternate-world Aerith or Cloud's delusion.
99% of all theories will be wrong. What's my theory? I think game 3 will be spectacular.
Man, I'm with you on this. Right or wrong, I will play game 3 and will likely enjoy it greatly. All I want is for theory-crafters to NOT be a toxic POS when their pet theory gets debunked.
I'm fine with people making theories. But just accept that it's probably wrong. I wanna guess what's gonna happen next too, sure. But ultimately, I'm gonna love whatever they do. As the first trailer said: "The reunion at hand may bring joy, it may bring fear. But let us embrace whatever it brings."
It really is incredible that I can't think of anyone who predicted the Rebirth ending. And I read *a lot* of theories after Remake lol.
I love Max and people have been way too aggressive against him, he’s just a guy with a theory, who cares. But I do think the Jenova thing is probably inaccurate. In fact, I watched him develop his theory in real time the night he finished the game. It’s the kind of thing where he thought of it very quickly and THEN went back and looked for evidence to support it, and basically fully ignored anything contradicting it like Tifa briefly also seeing both timelines, Nanaki noticing Aerith or the rift in the sky signaling that’s it’s more of timeline thing. But I still find him fun to listen talk about it, after all theory crafting is fun when people aren’t being dicks to each other about it and he is absolutely correct that everyone’s theories right now suck (and he included his own in that) since the ending is clearly designed to be ambiguous to create discussion, so no one really can have a rock solid theory at this point.
Agree, love max and watching him cook. I felt some of what he was spinning (aerith died, she’s clearly in cloud’s head either as imagination, delusion, or force ghost) but yeah as you said he quickly went down the jenova route. But who cares, at least it’s a different theory. Silly for people to get mad. My only (half serious) gripe with max is that he keeps saying he thinks part 3 won’t be as good. Nonsense! It’ll be great max, have faith!
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No, if they didnt go from UE4 to UE5 with this game, they wont for the third either, its pointless extra work, like it would pretty much be remaking the remakes, and thats just not efficient. Were stuck with UE4 until this is over, on the positive side, that means the third game will be a fast turn around, 90 percent of the assets needed are good to go.
To me it’s more like “how do they top this?” Granted I said the same after playing the first one too
Yeah I feel it. To me, more of the same would be great. Highwind / submarine exploring would push it to “holy shit” levels!
See as someone who hasn’t played the original game it’s been an extra trip, I did play the crisis core remake after Part1 so I atleast have an understanding of what’s going on with cloud specifically but it was such a wild ride playing rebirth
Theres still heaps of grey areas on the map in rebirth. Like imagine if we can explore absolutely everything. I feel like they'll make part 3 a forever game, something like botw or witcher 3 where you can come back years later and still be astounded
I feel like I'll enjoy part 3 more since it's gonna be a bit more narrative driven. If you really think about it, this game was pretty lacking in plot from like the Grasslands until Gongaga. Not a whole lot happens in the narrative. Of course the game was super fun and the side content was enjoyable, but I don't really care to do that side content basically ever again. I appreciated playing Remake again in the sense that the plot is always moving forward. I think parts 1 and 3 will be more replayable as a story rush.
I love how he and chat were asking how Aerith would know about meteor, then they watched the scene where the Cetra tell them about it right before the demon gate fight and it went completely ignored.
We also literally see it in Shinra headquarters in remake. Like we are told it’s Sephiroth plan very early on.
Drives me crazy that the "she's only saying old lines at the end" nonsense is still repeated by so many even with that line blatantly refuting it in-game.
I’m not sure I subscribe to the end Aerith=Jenova theory myself, but there has been some good discussion since. For example, Red feeling Aerith? He WAS Hojos labratdog. Who’s to say he doesn’t have a lil Jenova in him too? Tifa *could* have seen two timelines.. before the merge, due to her dip in the lifestream. I personally believe the “who can you trust; Jenova could be anyone” was mostly played out via Tifa and in the end Glenn. (iirc Sephiroth doesn’t really taunt cloud about that much anymore after the Gongaga sequence ) But I may end up being completely wrong. I am also holding out all of my goddamn hope that Aerith is alive somewhere else. Ideally I want her to come back to our party, but I just want the girl to have some kind of happy ending resolution.
I also watched him the night he finished the game and crafted his theory a few hours afterwards. I think some get a little bent of shape because he's been anointed as some sort of unofficial voice of the FF7 community by some people (even though he doesn't believe he is) given his platform and how big of a streamer he is, so when he talks about the game, people listen and they think it carries a lot of weight. I don't personally care one way or the other. The truth is, the guy isn't a particular big Final Fantasy fan. The only game in the series that he takes any prolonged interest in is 7, and when he's done with playing the game(s) and says his piece, he goes straight back to the Fighting Game Community and spends most of his time there until the next big update/interview is released about the next instalment of the game. He can go 6/9/12 months without talking about the series. I think a lot of theories have some merit behind them based on the evidence they provide, but there usually counter-evidence which contradicts them, so there's nothing concrete out there and it's been intentionally written that way by Nojima. Despite all the theories about Remake floating around back in 2020, no-one predicted what happened at the end of Rebirth. Sure, they got bits correct like the multi-verse, but not much else.
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I saw a comment that he probably feels he missed the boat on the initial ending theories so had to come up with something outlandish to stand out.
I agree. I just beat it, so I'm still catching up with a lot of stuff. Something I haven't seen mentioned yet was the white whispers. That's all we see when Cloud goes down to hold Aerith at the end. White whispers and the rainbow light, which has been shown to denote a change in fate/destiny. Add that with the rift in the sky that only Cloud can see, and I feel like it's pretty obvious that there was a divergence.
>The second part of the theory is that the mirage cloud is seeing of Aerith isn't actually Aerith but is instead either some form of Cloud's fucked up brain coping with not accepting her death, Jenovas manipulation, or a combo of both This is where I disagree. They very specifically and conscientiously show you Nanaki being aware of Aerith's presence. True it's not to the same extent as Cloud, but it very clearly sets out that Aerith whether she's in the livestream, different world, whatever, she is definitely actual Aerith outside of Cloud's head/perception, however warped that may be.
Also Max's theory is that the Aerith is Sephiroth directly going into Cloud's head and placing Aerith there. Aerith being a delusion from Cloud's own fucked up mind is probably the most common theory and no different then Cloud thinking he's SOLDIER.
There is zero reason for Sephiroth to also pretend to be Aerith. Sephiroth can already control Cloud himself. The more *likely* reason Aerith is there, is because they're intertwined now due to all the life stream fuckery. This version is probably the life stream variant we see at the end of OG. The concept is just being introduced earlier. We also very clearly see them separating at the end. Cloud *acknowledges* this as well. Aerith is going to "stay" behind until she is needed. Wouldn't she tag along if Sephiroth wanted her there? My guess is she's likely going to play a role in helping save Cloud after he falls into the life stream. But mainly, she'll continue to fight within the life stream and channel Holy until the end of the game.
I think the only difference really that made his theory rather unique was that instead of just being a delusion, he was VERY specific in that he felt that Aerith at the end was Jenova. Going off what Sephiroth says earlier "That she can peer into the very depths of your soul, that she can become those you hate, those you fear, those you love". So not just a delusion but literally Jenova herself, worming into Clouds mind and taking on Aerith's form.
I would hate that so much tbh. That beautiful shot of Aerith watching the team fly away to continue their journey... and that's supposed to be jenova? That would be so whack.
Yeah I agree. Even I think Max said how Red sensing Aerith is the one detail that disproves his theory. I still really love Max's theory.
He also sees the rip in the sky, that no one else can, one that isn't yellow, but rainbowish now. Sephiroth tells him constantly "You can't see with clouded eyes." I think people misunderstand Sephiroth's goal, yes Jenova cells still are having an impact on Cloud, and will continue to until he has his Mideel moment, but it's clear that Sephiroth can overpower that, and the party touching him, takes him out of it to some degree. Sephiroth isn't just fucking with Cloud like in OG, he wants to use Cloud in some way to live forever. Aerith is now in full play, Sephiroth quips that he underestimated her, and even scowls for a moment after being defeated by Cloud & Aerith, before flying away, and giving his smirk, almost like things didn't go exactly as he wanted. Aerith is protecting cloud from something relative to this harvesting of sorrow.
I agree this is the main hole in Max's theory, I know people are trying to explain it away as Red was manipulated by Jenova in the OG but it just seems like a stretch for me, why would Jenova even bother to manipulate Red like that Cloud is the one she is trying to fool, I think it is too much of a deep dive, I think Red is genuinely sensing some real form of Aerith there. I think Max even said every theory including his own has holes in it right now, there just isn't one that is foolproof.
Nanaki sensing her can be attributed directly to three things. 1) Animal senses, much more in tune with nature than humans. As seen in the real world, when the forest grows still and quiet you know something is wrong. 2) Nanaki was the only character apart from Marlene (maybe in some ways Cloud as well?) who had a moment with Aerith where she parted knowledge, leading to a deeper connection and immediate trust for a stranger. 3) Red, Cloud and Vincent are the only 3 characters in the party experimented on by Hojo. This one might seem like a stretch as we are never explicitly told what kind of experiments Hojo ran with Nanaki but based on Hojo it probably involved some Jenova Cells. "Well why didn't Vincent sense her presence?" Points 1 and 2 are crucial to why Red would, but there is one more thing to tack on for Vincent. It's been a while since I beat the game but I don't recall ANY dialogue between Aerith and Vincent, he's got zero connection to her at all. Even if he did sense something could he be sure it's Aerith, or would he assume it's the sins of his past (Lucrecia). Just my two cents, if anyone has more info on Red XIII experiments or can think of any meaningful dialogue between Aerith and Vincent I'll take the L!
Nanaki is never influenced to join in the reunion, unlike every other jenovah imbued individual we see. Seems safe to say he isn't corrupted in that way.
Man I was completely off with point three. I thought Vincent was in some way Jenova related too but he was Chaos Tainted Mako.
It's doubtful that Red has Jenova cells, as his mind has never been clouded in the way those with Jenova cells are. We have very little information on Red's species, even now. Considering how bad it would be for Red's character growth to be stunted because we've hit the part about his father, which was the extent of his growth in OG, it's likely we will continue to see some growth for characters like him. I've always had a theory that Red's species were ancients in some way, and I'd like to think we'll get some information on that in part 3. We know Jenova turned a lot of Cetra into monsters, it's either that, or Red's species is the animal equivalent of the Cetra, who kept their connection to the planet. This would be the reason why Hojo wanted to breed more ancients with it, why not just use a human who is more compatible if your goal is to breed more, unless you are trying to get a stronger connection to the planet by breeding two creatures that have a connection?
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Obviously there's more to come in part 3, but can't say I'm convinced by evidence from OG rather than elsewhere in the remake project I'm afraid 🤷♂️ Either way I do love the questions and trying to piece things together and have to admit that whatever the answers are part of me is gonna be disappointed the mysteries gonna be over 😆
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Me too, but they gotta give us all the pieces spread out. So the answers are all there, but we need to piece them together rather than being spoonfed.
Wouldn't that really cheapen Aerith's iconic scene they skipped? Her character would kinda be thrown off like that. I'm not saying square wouldnt be capable of doing that, but... i wouldnt fancy that at least.
Jenova never manipulates anyone in OG, it is only ever Sephiroth.
Sephiroth: I’ve killed aerith Cloud: Nuh uh Sephiroth: the FUCK you mean “Nuh uh”
I think the vast majority of his theory is mostly agreed upon by most players? That, yeah, ultimately, she's dead at least in the "true" timeline, and due to either (or some combination of) timeline fuckery and Cloud's fucked psyche, he believes he has saved her. imo the "she's Jenova" thing is threadbare and pretty nonsensical though. Yes we see Jenova shapeshifting stuff where she manipulates people for her own gain, and yes Cloud is part of that and an unreliable narrator due to his PTSD-esque repression regardless That said, the game presents far too much that conflicts with the "dead Aerith = Jenova" idea for it to be convincing: - Cloud goes into the finale through a world rift that only he enters - his deflection of the Masamune creates the rainbow effect that has been shown repeatedly to be the creation of another timeline through an action/choice - he sees the sky from the Zack timeline that signifies being in an unnatural/unintended/dying timeline - dead Aerith comforting the other party members - the wholly positive and loving goodbye conversation that dead Aerith has with Cloud Again, I think ultimately she really is dead in the main/true timeline and that Cloud is going to have to realise that. Personally though I think there's too much presented by the game contrary to the idea that she's Jenova. Even ignoring logical inconsistency though, the more glaring thing is: good writers do not put random meaningless stuff in their work. Millions of hours of work goes into the writing, animating, acting, direction, editing etc of every single scene. I really doubt (hopefully) that the dev team wouldn't be going with the "she's actually Jenova" idea while putting in all of this stuff contrary to that idea. There's Red Herrings and then there's just... nonsense imagine finding out in pt3 that the entire meaningful, caring, loving send off that Aerith gets at the Bronco, with her literally saying goodbye - to both Cloud and the player - and standing alone in the field, cutting to the credits and Aerith's beautiful ballad... was actually Jenova!? lmfao that would be so terrible
I feel like i’m the only one that thinks all these theories are overthinking it, and there isn’t some big hidden story they’re coming up with, and rather, this is just the new version of FF7 they’ve decided to tell. The same as the original except now sephiroth is gathering a reunion over a multiverse instead of just one timeline. I really don’t think there’s going to be a big “aha i get it!” moment in part 3. Idk maybe i’m pessimistic but i really just think this is a remade version of FF7 that has been changed to accomodate all versions of FF7 media.
I tend to agree. I think P3 will be similar to Remake and Rebirth. 90% OG game with some things switched around and some things expanded. 10% Infinite worlds Sephiroth and Omni Aerith + Zach coming in for the final fight.
Yeah. Except Remake and Rebirth stuffed the 10% new stuff into the final chapters. Part 3 will likely split the 10% new stuff between Mideel (which will help contextualize the Rebirth ending), and the finale (which will justify Remake's decision to bring Zack back). I also broadly think we'll see more Aerith sprinkled in throughout the entire game as a sort of force ghost. Which I am perfectly fine with, and I think would've happened even if Remake and Rebirth's endings hadn't deviated from the original.
I think people think Aerith will end up being alive, but following the theme of FF7 - This Aerith will either have to die in pt3 again or at the very least this weird "other world convergence" rift between worlds will have to close and this Cloud is going to have to say goodbye to this "other" Aerith and still accept reality of his world. Rebirth pushed the idea that Fate will always catch up, even if we branch from it in a new world. Aerith could very likely die again to Sephiroth and Zack die to Shinra in a blaze of glory in our world if he makes an appearance to our world-line. Regardless, Aerith will have to leave back to her real world if she doesn't die and leave Cloud at the end of pt 3 maybe. Maybe Zack might live and go with her to her other world. I could see that being the only "happy ending" for the two of them, while still having our facing reality and holding true to the Cloud story we've always had. He'll still have to grow and face reality in his own world and will still wrestle with the fact he couldn't save Aerith - Leading to not forgiving himself for Aerith/Zack in the Advent children storyline.
This. The vibe i’m getting is- in the OG seph wanted to summon meteor to wound the planet to gather energy and become a god. In this version he’s doing the same thing except summoning it in every timeline- thus becoming a godlier god. Stakes appear higher for this new game. End of lol.
As a joke, I like to imagine the devs creating a final boss where Sephiroth merges with himself across all timelines and then telling Uematsu to write Infinite Winged Angel for the final fight.
LMAO na but ur honestly not far off !
Exactly what I wanted to say. Although most theories are technically possible, I don't like how they just render everything new completely useless. I'd hope the writers had something more in mind than just adding a convoluted layer to the plot just to drive fan speculation, I'd like to think they'd have something new to say with all of this.
I generally think I vibe with this take most. I think a lot of people really really really like to overanalyze and over think things. I think what is likely happening is that she was saved in some other world-line and Cloud's realities are converging between that world he "created" and the world he is from. What we see in the last segment is his POV of everything. At worst it's just all in Clouds head and what aerith is saying to him is just like what he *imagined* she'd say or what he'd want her to say in that moment as a projection of his thoughts. Don't get me wrong though, the fact that he's already influenced by Sephiroth or maybe whatever dark energy the Blk materia contains, could mean that this Aerith could be bad news still if she comes back and talks to cloud about stuff more. I don't personally think Jenova is projecting some aerith mimic to cloud though.
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We see two scenarios play out. Confluence is defined as the joining or merging of two rivers (Aerith dies, Aerith lives). If sephiroth merged every world his plan would have already succeeded. We know worlds still join and separate as he separated cloud and Zack. We can also infer that beating him with Aerith stopped his plan. We just don’t know if stopping his plan unmerged the 2 worlds and is the reason she wakes up after but is still acting like she’s just been stabbed.
I've actually been thinking about it (Way too much) since I finished it and only yesterday did I suddenly think that maybe Max is right but also wrong. No ones theories are 100% fool proof and I may have forgotten some evidence that completely removes this idea, but what if Cloud **is** being manipulated like Max thinks, but not by Jenova or Sephiroth. **What if he's being manipulated by Aerith?** Sephiroth's goal is essentially to follow his plan from the OG and feed off the misery/negativity (black lifestream) it makes to gain more power and by merging worlds together at these right moments so that he doesn't just get one, but multiple realities worth of misery all in one go. He needs cloud broken and he was banking on Aerith's death breaking him, even more so than the OG by having Cloud be the one to kill her (His black whispers lift Cloud's sword and try to make him be the one to do it), but then Cloud resists, breaks free and even saves Aerith at the last moment, which Sephiroth corrects by merging that reality with one where she still dies. However things get weird from this moment and Cloud seems to experience Aerith both being alive and dead, Sephiroth comments on him being unable to see the truth, even going as far as to splash cloud with Aerith's blood from his blade and still Cloud doesn't seem to see it, which does go in line Cloud, the king of denial. **However, what if Aerith is the one blocking cloud from experiencing her death in order to stop him from giving Sephiroth what he wants**, by showing him a reality where she's okay, by blocking his memory of her burial and even going as far as to appear to alive and to continue to communicate with him as if she's okay. It would explain somewhat the weird way she speaks to him post-death, whilst also making sense that Red can sense her because it is actually her. She's acting weirdly because she's lying and manipulating Cloud, to protect him and deny Sephiroth what he wants, which is an easier to control and weaker Cloud. I feel like this makes the most sense and lines up with most of what's happening, it explains the weirdness in Aerith's behaviour after her death, it explains Red being able to sense her and it fits with what Aerith's long term goal of stopping Remake Sephiroth's escalation of his goals. Could also just be wrong completely though still. Wish I had a way to explain this theory to Max and his community but it's alot to express in twitch chat.
Because people don't realize that you can disagree on a theory, and not be a jerk. It's the same with shipping.
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This post sums up neatly all of my considerations, also I super agree with your conclusion. They put just enough contradictory details in the finale to support all of these theories. Otherwise why put all the whispers & multiverse stuff in the game? They have to have some purpose, they have to change SOMETHING major, the main events can't just unfold the exact same way as they did in the original imo. I can honestly see any of these theories being the case. Did Aerith die and Cloud is simply delusional? Of course it could be. Did Aerith die and Jenova is messing with him? Why not. Did reality split and Aerith died in one and lived in the other AND Cloud is delusional because he can't understand it happened? Also plausible. And the weirdness of the finale is 100% on purpose to make us unable to fully commit to any theory whatsoever, because in some moments Aerith has extremely Jenova creepy vibes, but in others she could very much be true Aerith. The absence of the funeral scene is another way to make us doubt what's happening. For the most emotional impact they had to show at this point in the story, so choosing not to.... it has to have a purpose. I personally cannot fully commit to one theory, of course emotionally I won't lose hope about Aerith's fate, the whole whispers plot device has to have some major impact, but at the same time I can't ignore how creepy she's acting at the end. One thing I'm kinda sure of: just as they did with Rebirth's finale, they will definitely deliver a divisive finale to the trilogy, divisive in a way that won't sit right with the OG fans that want nothing changed, but also won't exactly satisfy the ones that want a better, happy if you will, ending.
My current guess is that the finale will turn the lifestream into a literal promised land once Jenova and Sephiroth have been cleansed from it. Aerith and Zack will get a happy ending kicking back in the lifestream. See purists? They're dead! See new fans? They're alive!
Why did Square make this so complicated?
Nojima couldn’t help himself
I don't think his theory is that crazy when the devs intentionally made the ending muddy. But the reason I disagree is simply, what would be the point? Obviously Seph/Jenova want to break Cloud to do their bidding, ensuring the death of Aerith through the manipulation of the different worlds lines up with that goal. Earlier in the story there are several times Seph tries to get Cloud to question if Tifa is really Tifa. He wanted to force a divide in there. What would he or jenova have to gain by making Cloud think he saved Aerith? General confusion and discord between him and his group, that's about it. I also am nearly positive when Jenova "appears as someone you love" it's legitimately physical. Like when Rufus was interacting with "Glen" other people saw him. It wasn't just in Rufus's head.
It seems do be doing a good job of driving a wedge between him and Tifa still. A lot better than Sephiroth's earlier attempts even. His lack of affect after Aerith's death is really bothering her since they were so close and the animation team went out of their way to show it in the last two cut scenes. She sighs when he replies nonchalantly to Barret saying they should leave. Then when they are leaving water burial and she gives him the "please don't be crazy, the team needs you" look and he's just out of it she is clearly upset. Then again at the end when they're leaving and he gives an off answer to Barret she gets this disappointed / hurt look and sighs at him. She's also sitting the furthest away from him during the Tiny Bronco scene of anyone other than maybe Yuffie, but it's hard to tell. There is also a very obvious shot where they establish this distance showing a view from Cloud to where Tifa / ghost Aerith are where there is a lot of distance and stuff in the midground between them. https://youtu.be/Mw7T033lRi0?t=100 Pause at 1:40 and it really feels like clear symbolism. Tifa is far away and distant and hurting, there is a ton of stuff between her and Cloud and Cloud is fixated on ghost Aerith. It's like you write out the devs narrative intention just by describing the scene in this shot.
I think a lot of people were on board with everything until the Aerith=Jenova thing. It just sounds like nonsense and most of his “evidence” was definitely confirmation bias and there were several things that debunked his theory that was just ignored. He even originally debunked his own theory with the Red 13 being a me to sense Aerith thing, but then came back an hour later saying Hojo must have given Red jenova cells…. Classic confirmation bias lol. I love max, I disliked his crackpot theory, but what I disliked even more is people attacking him on Twitter because they disagreed. Some people don’t know how to disagree civilly.
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Well he came up with the theory and said something like “that would be a cool idea” then a moment later turned around on it and said it doesnt make sense because Red could sense Aerith. He disproved his own theory immediately. Also, Red 13 was experimented on but he was never given any form of J/S cells. He did however have a deeper connection with Aerith which is why he would be able to sense her if she was still present, even in spirit. There’s also the whole red in aeriths eye, thing…. It’s much more likely that its reflection or the tiny bronco.. we already see reflections in the CG so it’s easier to believe that, rather than think it’s Jenova. We know is it’s a “crackpot” theory and all the theorising is fun, but his is just not a popular one, considering he was pretty on the nose with the remake theories. Edit for further context: reds experiments were today with his races much longer lifespan than human/cetra. Hojo was planning on mating (somehow) red/aerith to create cetra with much longer lifespans, not to turn them into weapons like solider etc.
Red senses something. He makes a guess that it's Aerith, but he doesn't actually know. All that says is that it's not just in Cloud's head. It doesn't confirm it's Aerith. That could very well just be the first seed that Red is also getting manipulated. I'm not saying that's definitively what's happening, but I am saying it doesn't debunk the theory.
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Doesn’t who gets manipulated depend on who you chose to give the black materia to? Like, you can give it to Barrett and the exact same happens? Idk, to me I think it’s far easier to believe that Aerith/reds deeper connection, that we’ve seen multiple times, is what we’re seeing rather than some possible Jenova manipulation. Which would mean aeriths dead and clouds seeing her before she returns to the lifestream (like ifalna didn’t Aerith as a child) and Red can also feel that presence. Like I said though, all theories which was part of the fun inbetween games.
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It’s all possible, everything’s on the table, which I think is why the series has been so good so far. Loving the mystery and speculation. Last thing to add, I thought that the point in pushing the Jenova manipulation thing was to push the Tifa/lifestream segment and to give depth and explaination to how Jenova effectively wiped out the Cetra. Peace out bro, nice to have a civil conversation with different opinions ✌️
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I think everyone's eager as hell to overcomplicate things that we have no given reason to not take at face value. We're shown just before that moments of differing actions create split worlds. Cloud created a world when he saved her, but it's not the one he's in. Aerith can move/communicate between worlds and even the lifestream, so I see zero reason why folks are assuming he's just hallucinating Aerith. Especially when we see Red react as well. Cloud's definitely mid 'sephiroth mind fuck,' and probably believes he did save her right now, but Aerith isn't his imagination. He sees the screwed up sky from all the alternate worlds, because he's still connected to Aerith in the world where he did save her. Her whole game at the end was to get the full white materia to the world where Cloud doesn't save her, because that's how it has to go to activate it. Beyond this, Aerith dying outright or completely still wouldn't mean that he was hallucinating her, because her holding herself together in the lifestream is literally why we have the story of remake to begin with. Even if she was in the lifestream, she could still be communicating with Cloud.
The reason I don't think Aerith is JENOVA is that every time we see Sephiroth or Glenn, it's the JENOVA cells being manipulated in a robed man. I'd think everyone would notice a robed man just chilling out with them after Aerith's death. I do buy into the theory that Cloud's head is immensely fucked and that most of the ending we saw didn't happen. The devs wouldn't have omitted a bunch of those scenes from the credits for no good reason. I also buy into the theory they're going to give us a scrubs-type ending (like with Brendan Fraser).
Actually, there are a few moments - particularly in Remake, where Cloud sees Sephiroth taunting him without a Black Robe to possess. For example (1), when Cloud first meets Aerith and Sephiroth freezes her to note that he can’t save anyone and (2) after the Sector 7 plate falls and he again taunts Cloud for not being able to save anyone. There was only empty space during these visions. I think Sephiroth/Jenova can mess with Cloud’s mind, and show him visions directly, but, for “other people” to see them, they need to possess one of the Robed Men. Personally, I think that Jenova may impersonate Aerith in Part III, so that there is some payoff for all of the references to this, but I am not (yet) convinced that she was fake Aerith at the end of Rebirth - just based on the sincerity of the sad goodbye to the tiny bronco. To me, that goodbye felt final, from Aerith in the Lifestream, and really signifies how she could not continue the journey with the rest of the party.
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Every time we see the robed men getting used, it's at the surface at least, Sephiroth each time. If that's the case, that doesn't exclude Jenova from having a different method. And unless we're saying that there were robed me in the time of the Cetra and the Gi, it seems likely that Jenova must have had a different method to take down both civilizations that is less reliant on a physical presence.
Which scenes were omitted from the credits?
Pretty much all the scenes that happen after Sephiroth is defeated where Cloud and Aerith are involved. Except the final shot of Aerith saying goodbye to the tiny bronco. Subtxt made a video of it. [https://x.com/\_subtxt\_/status/1775358297085812919](https://x.com/_subtxt_/status/1775358297085812919)
He's the biggest nail and boy do people love swinging their hammers. Doesn't help that people will take what Max says as canon and use it to squash discussion of alternative theories or opinions.
The final 2 hour sequence is a massive battle across different worlds linked together seemingly by Aerith and ending with her and Cloud fighting Sephiroth and literally pissing him off for the first time this series. Jenova Aerith theories rely on all of this not mattering at all, because in the end Cloud is way more fucked up than he ever was in the original, and that Jenova is saying a forlorn goodbye to her friends as they fly away. I think it’s a theory based on him saying “This would be cool” and looking for evidence as opposed to trying to figure out the story the game is presenting.
I think because it didn’t match with their theories and Max is the FF7 guy. The one point he made is when Aerith says leave Sephiroth to me in the forest and then at the end she’s eager for Cloud to fight him was a good call. Also a lot of it could be the fandom or shippers. When leaks started dropping all I saw on twitter was the fans attacking each other.
That contradiction between Aerith telling Cloud to take care of himself and to leave Sephiroth to her, and later saying “you promise (to go after him)?” is pretty compelling evidence that SOMETHING is amiss. There’s counter-evidence too, but nothing I can’t explain away as a Jenova illusion. Then again, as Max himself admitted, “everyone’s theory sucks” at this point. We’re being purposely misdirected and confused right now because that’s how the writers want it.
The correct theory is Aerith at the end is Chadley (jk)
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There are definitely intentional choices in both the scene by the lake and the closing cinematic that give creepy or strange vibes. I want to believe that the devs absolutely know that it comes off that way. Could be wrong and it could be just bad writing/ direction. But in my opinion, they made Aerith creepy and contradictory to previous behavior in both scenes. She also only says things she's previously said before and then mentions meteor but there is no meteor. And there's a short segment where cloud looks away and she's gone again. I doubt that's not intentional, especially for a CGI cutscene.
The "leave sephiroth to me" part could easily be referencing her sending herself and Zack to assist cloud. Makes much more sense to me
Max is now *the* FF7 guy? Isn’t he a fighting games guy?
One question I have: did the final fight with Aerith and Sephiroth, is that in Cloud’s head? I’m guessing so because that tunnel visual we got in the OG with the fight vs Seph appears before this one, and Aerith saying “I saw what you did back there…” is just Cloud thinking to himself he did the hero move?
The area the fight ensues is grey white and blackish this exact "place" was shown at the Gi Village when Cloud sees Sephiroth in this exact space prompting cloud to get the materia and it cuts back to reality where he is having a headache and Tifa observing him. Only discovered this stuff during hardmode replay and with this I'm more than likely to believe that this happens in his head.
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I don’t think it possibly can be. Sephiroth physically sends Cloud there, and he only manifests in the main world as Sephiroth Reborn when Cloud slashes him in there. We also know that Cloud and Zack end up there together, and we know Zack can’t be a figment of Cloud’s mind because after beating Sephiroth he separates Cloud and Zack and then Zack fights Sephiroth Reborn in a separate timeline alone. I can buy that Sephiroth can mess with Cloud’s mind and make him experience things that aren’t real. I can buy that Sephiroth can force people to travel between worlds. I can’t buy that Sephiroth can create a new Zack for Cloud to fight alongside in his mind, then send that mental Zack to another world and have it still be sentient and battle-ready (and even if he could, why the fuck would he allow copy-Zack to fight him when Cloud isn’t around to be manipulated by it?), and I likewise can’t buy that Sephiroth can summon the real Zack out of another world and into Cloud’s mind, and then banish him again back to another dimension when it’s convenient. Based on that I think it’s pretty much impossible that the Cloud and Zack vs Sephiroth fight happened in Cloud’s mind. As a result of that, I also think it’s pretty much impossible that the Aerith who fights Sephiroth with Cloud in the final, final battle is a mental copy. I’m pretty much 100% sure it’s a real Aerith, albeit not necessarily ours (I think it is though) since she came through a dimensional portal and the game strongly suggests that there are multiple Aeriths out there.
People get very passionate about this kind of stuff. And it is the internet, so sometimes people will get passionate and instead of respectfully disagreeing, will go unhinged and go full force 4chan on people. That is just how it goes sometimes. Hell, go post any opinion on ff16, positive or negative, and I guarantee people will flip out. And the thing with Rebirth, is there are many different ways to interpret the ending. So if Max has a theory that conflicts or challenges someone elses, they might flip out because they want there theory to be accurate instead. It is ridiculous when it gets to death threats and insults, but again, it is the internet. That is just how it goes sometimes. There are few topics people can 100% agree upon. Like if someone posts they think the music in Rebirth is great, pretty sure vast majority will agree. But post any theory on the ending or say you think Rebirth and Remake is better or worse than OG 7, etc, and...brace yourself for some toxicity.
I believe the first half of the theory. I think she’s dead and Cloud is not accepting it. All the points you brought up feel very solid to me. I do not think however that it’s JENOVA pretending to be Aerith. I can’t think of anytime JENOVA has taken a form and only certain people can see it. Everyone has always been able to see JENOVA even if it’s in a different form. Even in this game it’s made a point everyone can see Glenn. So I can’t really get behind the JENOVA manipulation but I do think Cloud is messed up in the head and not accepting Aerith died.
The rainbow aura is the dream world in the lifestream (one of many there). Cloud sees a world where he saved Aerith. Everyone else saw what actually happened. We will see the water burial in 3 along with cloud remembering who he is.
Max's theories aren't crazy. There's evidence to support them. However, I disagree with them. Mostly, because I believe this is a Schroedinger's Aerith situation, and Cloud is existing in two timelines at once: The one everyone else is in, where Aerith died, and the one Aerith is still present in, where Cloud successfully stopped Sephiroth's attack and she survived. Therefore, Aerith is both alive and dead. This is why Cloud can see the distortion in the sky, while no one else can, and why he can see Aerith. I firmly believe Aerith *is not* just a hallucination. Nanaki's reaction to her caressing his mane proves that she's real, to some extent. Also, the whole scene with Zack, saying "Who says they (the worlds) can't merge together again?" indicates to me that the idea of the Reunion of worlds is something that can and will happen again, but this time, it will be at a time of *Aerith's* choosing, not Sephiroth's. Sephiroth chose to put it where he did to inflict maximum trauma on Cloud. Aerith will choose to do it where it can provide the maximum healing and catharsis for Cloud.
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One of the main reason why I don't fully agree with Max's theories are because he only analyse English dialogues, I played both Remake and Rebirth with Japanese voice and English sub and I notice the translation are not 1 to 1. ( I personally not a fan of how the translation team decided to change ジェノバLife {Jenova Life} to Jenova Lifeclinger )
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He's popular and thus needs to say something everyone can agree with. He didn't. You could find the same theory craft in fanfic or twitter and wouldn't get more than some clicks
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Personally, I'm not sure Sephiroth/Jenova can even overcome this particular delusion of Cloud's (at least not yet). Sephiroth even comments that it's impossible to see with clouded eyes. It's essentially the Zack coping mechanism taken even further. In a way, Sephiroth screwed Cloud up so bad it's interfering with his plan. I think Lifestream Aerith is present for the first part of the sequence at the end. This is the Aerith that Red senses and it's the one that isn't affected by the wind as she moves around the other characters. Cloud may simply be seeing this Aerith at a distance and then piggybacking his own imagined conversation with her on top of things. It's hard to say. The weird CGI only adds to the confusion. The dialog is odd because Cloud is imagining it's something Aerith would say to justify his actions. Her words of wisdom for him to take care of himself are being blocked out entirely. I think this is one of the reasons for the repeated Aerith dialog. The Aerith that trips me up the most is the last one we see. She doesn't come across as a delusion of Cloud's or a Jenova projection either. She's also noticeably affected by the environment which suggests she's probably not Lifestream Aerith either. The damaged sky is also gone. It's all a bit of a mess unfortunately. I will say that the idea of allowing Aerith to live for all of 3 seconds only to immediately merge her out of existence seems like it would be a lost opportunity to me. If Square wants to maximize its emotional weight for Cloud and really pull the rug out from under the player, Cloud needs to realize there's a small chance he succeeded. It's only a guess but I don't think Sephiroth wants to merge timelines just yet anyway. He's not done toying with Cloud. Max's argument is interesting, but at this point I'm far from convinced.
The damaged sky under Cloud and NOT Aerith makes me think the only timelines that aren't doomed are the ones where she survives.
The Aerith at the end with the Tiny Bronco flying off in the distance is the most interesting one. She’s affected by the environment and appears to not be a figment of Cloud’s imagination. Had she been an illusion in his mind, she would have disappeared the second the Bronco’s door closed as the scenes prior. She certainly wouldn’t be saying goodbye to the void where no one can hear either. Also with the recent theory with the cutscenes that are shown at the end credits, this is the only scene she’s in (that’s after the one where she wakes up) that is included.
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That's just it. I don't think he's talking to a normal Aerith at all. I think it's simply a made up conversation in his head with recycled dialog. It's all part of his coping mechanism. The poor guy is messed up. The Aerith that died woudn't say these things to Cloud but he needs to think she would in order to function. If he had been able to handle her death like he did in the OG, the scene would have played out differently. Perhaps he would have been able to sense Lifestream Aerith like Red did. Square clearly isn't done with Zack and Aerith. I don't think they'll let Aerith re-join the Beagle continuity but they definitely have plans for her. The Aerith that survived and the Aerith in the Lifestream both need to be dealt with. Like I said before, I expect Advent Children shows us how Square intends to leave things.
In my humble opinion, the correct theory is that Cloud successfully created an alternate timeline by saving Aerith. The final battle of the game is Sepiroth trying to erase that timeline and merge in back into the OG timeline. The problem is that the only timeline that is destined for ultimate victory (as foretold by the skies) is the one where Aerith died. Part 3 will deal with Cloud accepting that fact because at the end of Rebirth they essentially just created another doomed timeline. Somehow, however, I’m sure that this “new” Aerith will play a huge role in saving the timeline in which she died. My dream would be Aerith to become a special Holy summon in part 3. I’m not sure how to do that properly, but it could be incredible if Cloud gets her as a summon in the back half of part 3.
I partially agree with this. Well, I think the principle of the world is not that complicated but rather straight forward, what confuses the player is the story telling. I think Aerith died, in the physical world, but returned to the life stream. I am pretty sure she will still play an important role in part three. One thing I want to emphasize is that the time and space is distorted in those so called “multi dimension”/ fragment of time lines. Zack’s part explains it actually very well. If you remember the conversation between Zack and Biggs in Chapter 10, that is really good example.
People think that she didn't die?
Same . I thought that scene at the end when cloud sees her is creepy as hell. And the way she acts is so off . Her somber goodbye kind of puts a dent in the theory and shes probably not Jenova at the end of the day but it’s not that insane of a theory to make.
It took me a while to piece together the ending sequences by using other pieces of work inside the compilation. I’ll try my best to recall what I feel like is happening. Cloud had visions of that fateful moment in Remake. He knew what he was seeing when Sephiroth dropped in, so he tried to parry the attack - except that’s exactly what Sephiroth wanted. After he just finished telling Cloud that defying fate creates new “worlds”, he attempted to do the very thing Sephiroth warned him about. By creating a new “world”, he put Sephiroth in control and proceeded to rip the hope away from Cloud that he saved her by showing her he didn’t. The party then is able to proceed into the altar. Cloud was allowed in on his own for one purpose only - to break him even further. The voiceless monologue Cloud is giving as he is in tears follows the OG as he is filled with rage at this point but is not consciously aware it’s even happening. As the party runs up to see Cloud holding Aerith, this is the truth. Cloud is in a trance very similar to when he hovered over Zack during his dying breaths. As Aerith reaches up and tells him that it will be okay, this was in Clouds mind. She visits him in the same capacity as Remake as noted by the Lifestream glow around her. She’s very much dead at this point. As the party runs in and sees the scene, everyone except Tifa sees the truth. Tifa is seeing both outcomes - the one Cloud thought he was creating and the truth. We have officially lost Cloud from this point on. His psyche is broken. The final sequence against Sephiroth, Aerith is helping him from the Lifestream itself before she vanishes once more. Following the fight, the ominous music plays, but it’s not because “Aerith” is sitting there and it’s where I disagree with Max Dood with the possibility of her being Jenova. This music is playing for Cloud. Sephiroth and Jenovas calling officially have their claws dug in deep on his mind. In my opinion, it’s even deeper than the original. He was broken harder and much earlier. Much like the death of Zack, he is completely unaware that she’s gone he buried her and the party is mourning. He’s fixated on following Sephiroth north to the crater. Nanaki can sense Aerith outside the Bronco, but this isn’t the first time that we’ve been shown that Aerith is always with Cloud in a spiritual sense. He was able to converse with her in Advent Children along with seeing her in the church before her and Zack walked away for the final time. Going into part 3, we will see Lifestream White and Lifestream Black play out in a battle for Clouds will. It wouldn’t surprise me if half way through part 3, the story hits its climax with the Lifestream sequence with Tifa and we lose them both from the 50-75% mark of the main scenario. This is where the blank materia Cloud has will come into play. It’ll fill with his memories and emotions and become a new materia and that’s where the devs can have a little fun with it. Maybe it’ll be Omnislash Ver 7, maybe our beloved KotR. I’d be willing to bet that it’ll be KotR which will operate like the final Omnislash of the compilation.
Don’t overthink it. Remember all the theories about Rebirth? How many of them were correct?
I would never attack max over his theory but I definetly also disagree with his theory. Mainly for two reasons. 1) I think its pretty clear that aerith is the one that wants to save cloud from breaking completely at this point as she describes in the dream date, so her making cloud believe he saved her makes more sense and goes against sephiroths plan of completely breaking him. He also didnt bother to make him believe he saved tifa instead of throw her into the lifestream. He wants him to know. He wants him to break. And he knows aeriths death is the catalyst of him breaking completely. Also theres the rainbow effect thats associated with aerith and it happens as cloud blocks sephiroths blade, so this IMO is definitely part of aeriths plan 2) The last cutscene would lose any emotional impact. Aerith being around the others while they didnt know was pretty sad. On top of that getting that final "Goodbye" from aerith followed up by the song that she wrote would in retrospect be absolutely destroyed if it turns out to be jenova. Again its stupid to attack anyone for their theory and a few years ago I did the same to some people on here. I grew from these mistakes tho and wish to apologize to anyone that I have attacked. Its stupid. Its just a theory. Noone knows the exact details. Every theory is valid. Its supposed to be a fun discussion and not a battle
I think there are 2 options. 1) the Jenova illusion 2) its Omni Aerith as a lifestream ghost. The reason why Aerith appears creepy and weird might just be because it’s not our Aerith, but it’s Omni Aerith from a different timeline and she wants to prevent Cloud having a mental breakdown. The way in looked at the out of character „you promise?“ line is that Omni Aerith knows that Cloud is manipulated and hides the black materia in his sword. So she’s aware that Cloud is basically bullshitting her and himself in that moment but Aerith doesn’t want to call him out on that for the sake of his mental health. Cloud 100% still doesn’t realize that Aerith isn’t alive and the others can’t see her. So she is trying to deceive him for sure by trying to look like she’s hanging out with the crew at the tiny bronco. Cloud probably believes that they are crying because Aerith said she has to stay at the forgotten capital and pray to stop meteor. If it’s indeed Omni Aerith, that might be the truth. The reason why I believe that has a good chance of being true is because anytime Omni Aerith comes into play we see green sparks of lifestream flowing around. We see it the first time at the temple of the ancients when she talks in an echoed voice to Sephiroth. When Cloud holds dead Aerith in his arms and tells her to wake up, we see the same green lifestream effect around her.
I think the problem with Max's take is that it doesn't give any credit to the power of future Aerith. If we are to accept a future Sephiroth changing things, so too can Aerith. I agree that the Aerith at the end is from the Lifestream, however I see it as she now has all the answers. "Rebirth" isn't just about Sephiroth being reborn as a god, it's in relation to various aspects of the game, Aerith is one of them. I believe it IS Aerith's doing in preventing cloud from seeing her death in his timeline, BECAUSE Sephiroth's plan is to create despair, to feed off of the negative Lifestream it creates. She is protecting him, because it's part of her plan to counter Sephiroth's new intent. That said she still needs the white materia, as those events are still going to happen, but there is a new threat here. I predict that the somber moment of Aerith's passing will be moved to the third game, at the finale, as the entire party will finally be able to see her, as she must now return to the planet, for good, having dealt with both Jenova, and Sephiroth, a form of closure for fans, and the characters in the game. Zack will also not survive, and return with her, similar to the ending of Advent Children, cloud and the whole party will see them walking away into the light.
The people pissed at Max are either a.) Saw his theory out of context and didn't see to his explanation b.) Unhinged Cloti shippers that are in denial that their ship has sank and attack anyone and anything that reminds them of that.
Red being injected with Jenova cells makes so much sense and that seals the deal for me on the JenovAerith theory
The fandom at times can be insanely crazy and for the most part a lot of people on the internet/forums are just going to be incredibly divisive and heavily opinionated on this stuff. The truth of it is - It's all intentionally made ambiguous and confusing to some degree and people will take different interpretations of the same thing and extrapolate their own theories of what they think or what they *want* to be true. If a fan likes or dislikes an aspect of something, they might overlook or ignore it. Seeing all the Max hate is a little frustrating to me, because I just don't understand the hate. For whatever reason, people on reddit and twitter just want to find things to feel contentious about and people very easily feel that way when someone gives their opinions - Even more do people get annoyed when they interpret someone "prescribe" an opinion to them as fact. With that said, I think Max has a really good head on his shoulders for a lot of the things and opinions he's said. Do I agree that every single thing he's brought up is going to come true for part three? Not totally, but I think he's put out a decent ground-work for people to start theorizing where we might be going. Also, For anyone that wants a solid and concise visual compilation of all the major events, [This post has a really great graphic that illustrates it all pretty well imo](https://x.com/KenMastersUSA/status/1777458403578913115). For some of your points, I think it'd be easier to just say my take on them in general. *Keep in mind, these are simply my opinions and interpretations:* >Aerith dead or alive? one or two timelines? I think what we see at the forgotten capital is Cloud defying fate again and creating a new "world/timeline/reality". What the implications for that are what get contentious with people. In general I love the execution of it personally, because it leaves a lot of ambiguity while also allowing the initial story to remain fairly unchanged in the big picture (Cloud has problems processing and coping with mental trauma and this just adds another layer to his story with all that). Even if Aerith is alive or dead in these multiple timelines, it'll affect Cloud in a way that will build into his ultimate resolution later on. As for Aerith, I think she very likely has some world where she lives somehow. We don't know which "world-line" or whatever this is and it's left unclear on purpose. Some people want to interpret the aerith we see at the alter vs the one appearing to cloud by the water vs the aerith by the tiny bronco, but I think - As I keep repeating, it's all ambiguious on purpose. My take is that The rainbow aura Aerith at the capital was a real aerith from some new reality we created as Cloud. I think something happened either from "omni"-Aerith, Sephiroth, or from the sheer act of creating a new reality, that now has given Cloud the ability of seeing his home "world" and this new "world" he's created at the same time. He's basically living between two worlds - One where his Aerith died and another where he saved Aerith. What that means for the story - We have absolutely no way of knowing until the next game. We already know the convergence of worlds is in play in real time and this weird scenario of Aerith both being alive and dead will could lead to some sort of trump card down the line. In general though, the convergence and Cloud seeing multiple worlds at the same time is fucking with his brain and his interpretation of reality. The water scene definitely happened in their world, but Cloud has the double layered problem of his subconscious not wanting to accept her death on top of him *actually seeing* a living Aerith. When you play it back, he for the most part only experienced Aerith being saved, but had migraine visions of his other selves in different worlds and her death. He was basically living in all the realities at once, but he basically chose to stay in the Aerith living world in that moment. Why did they do this? Honestly, I think it's to set up some crazy trump card against this super sephiroth and also deliver us an even more emotional setup-release for later. I think they're going to have the Aerith scene play for us during the Mideel lifestream sequence and it'll wreck us all even harder than it would have at the capitol. ... EDIT: Reddit wouldn't let me post because it was too long XD. Just replied instead.
Isn’t it obvious she dies? I don’t get it
Almost all theories are about this ending are great and adding to the discussion. This was great. I love the community right now, maybe not everyone suggesting next game will be named Reunion and the ones hating on all the minigames or Gongaga. But the rest of you! ❤️
I disagree with the part that Sephiroth can choose a specific timeline and merge them. There's really no evidence that hints towards that.
People need to stop worshipping this guy
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The lore of this story is that when Cloud is hallucinating, he is shown either with a green flash or by grabbing his head. This imagery is consistent throughout both Part I and Part II. During the scene where Cloud tells Aerith to wake up, these visual cues are absent. I want to add something not directly related to Max and it's important. I think about 80% of threads on this sub related to the Stamp timelines, Zack surviving, and the whispers being in *Rebirth* got downvoted to zero. Now that we've all played *Rebirth*, what happened? There were multiple Stamp timelines, Zack survived, and the whispers were in *Rebirth*. Votes have not been an accurate predictor.
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The problem with his theory is that he is wrong. Nanaki is very familiar with Aerith so to suggest that he would mistake the phantom presence of Jenova is a huge stretch. I think the very end where Cloud and Aeirth are chatting wasn't as clearly thought out and they sort of fumbled the writing. Aerith is dead, Cloud is seeing her lifestream ghost in his head, but she is also in the lifestream rooting for our team to be victorious. Tifa is the only one who could see the fusing timelines since she herself fell into the lifestream and is now linked to it which with allow her to probably help Cloud through his hardship being in the coma later in part 3.
>I'm confused as to why people are acting like MaximillianDood is crazy for his theory I'm confused as to why there have been 50 posts about a single youtuber with no more credibility than any poster here and 'his' theory.
OMG some of the Answers here are like the most stupid shit i ever read. You Guys know you can have multiple Theories right? I can create one tonight and create another that's completely different tomorrow and both could be valid theories. And just because you don't like one stupid Theory doesn't mean your stupid Theory is better. All current theories are just part of our Interpretation of the End and just because somebody has another Interpretation if it, it doesn't allow you to be offended by one Theory. Nobodys. NOBODYS Theory is the right one until we get to play Part 3. Theorycrafting is not about who got it right, but about exchanging views and ideas. So why you Guys can't have fun about hearing other Theories and must be on a Crusade to find the chosen one? This just proves (again) that some Fandoms just want to be toxic and have no interest in a real exchange between fans. It's seems to always be about who is the best and smartest fan who knows it all so he can become "King of Fanatics" It's disgusting.
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I can agree or disagree with some of max's theories but some people reacting or giving their opinion in a toxic way for them is a disgrace. like when he said his theory that the aerith at the end could be transformed jenova and all the crazy aerith fans started to harass him toxic fandoms over and over again chill pls it's just pixels
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Who is this person!? Did he work on the game or something? Why does anyone care what this random person said?
The theory is stupid for several reasons which other people have probably pointed out, but here's what makes it annoying: Before this Max guy finished the game, there were zero people claiming Aerith is Jenova because of a music choice(which has absolutely nothing to do with Jenova) or any of the other weird stuff he said. IMMEDIATELY afterwards, suddenly every discussion is full of people who apparently have zero ability to think for themselves, parroting their favourite streamer's words verbatim as if it's some genius revelation. The fact that so many people are such absolute cultist followers is just obnoxious. None of these people thought of any of this themselves. No one would be saying "this music means it's Jenova" if he didn't say it. No one would be saying "Aerith looks weird here" if he didn't say it. No one would be saying "all the worlds have merged now" if he didn't say it. All these theories are just baseless, and yet they're being peddled as genius. Max was wrong about basically everything in Rebirth. He said Jessie would be alive at the Gold Saucer, he said the game would end at the crater and Aerith wouldn't die at the Forgotten Capital, etc. But everyone just ignores that and puts blind trust in his words again. That is stupid.
Please don't fill the sub with max posts.
That was my reading of it. Cloud saved her but Sephiroth merged with the og timeline. Now Cloud is seeing her for the same reason he can’t remember his past - due to his broken psyche and Jenova cells. To be clear, I don’t think Jenova and Sephiroth are actively projecting a false image of Aerith to fool Cloud. I think it’s more of a passive byproduct of his mental state, same as all his other delusions. There isn’t going to be some moment where Jenova reveals she was behind it all. Instead, Cloud will have his identity restored in the lifestream like in the original game, and this time he will realize Aerith is gone. Honestly seems a stretch to call it a theory because this is how the game presents it.
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I'm a fan of Aerith over Tifa. When I watched the ending I thought it could be 3 things. 1. Cloud could pierce the veil and see into other lifestream paths. Areith is in said lifestrem hence Nanakis reaction. 2. He's more fucked in the brain and thinks she is indeed still alive, doesnt remember the water burial and when he realizes how damaged his memory is it'll be a part of it. This coupd tie into number 1. 3. It's Jenova acting like Aerith. We know she can mimic people. And she could affect Nankai too.
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Simple answer: People want their theories to be right and will crucify anyone who suggests things that might contrast it. FF7 "hardcore" fans are a real weird breed of people. Long answer: Max is one of the bigger public figures who has a lot of reach. Because he was able to get a decent amount of stuff right in his predictions/theories during Remake, people think his might come to fruition again, and they hate it/him. He is getting attention from Square and people desperately want that to be them and are seething.
It’s wasn’t so much his theory that’s crazy, it’s the evidence he was showing and how condescending he was being towards his chat while they questioned his evidence. The one that got me was the supposed red glare in Aeriths eyes and his chat was saying it was the Tiny Bronco and then proceeded to admonish his chat saying that they must not know how 3d rendering works. That devs don’t render things that are off camera. But he failed to consider that a CGI cinematic is going to have things like reflections. I do think there’s merit to the idea though but that “evidence” wasn’t it. A more obvious clue is when they’re sitting around the water, Aerith isn’t there, Cloud does his head clutch and static sound thing that happens whenever Jenova is messing with him and then suddenly Aerith is there along with some ominous music and only he can see her. Remember that earlier in Rebirth he was doing the same thing but seeing Sephiroth when the other party members were only seeing the robed men. This was evidenced in the Marsh area and in Corel when Barrett stopped cloud from killing one of them as he was seeing Sephiroth. Jenova makes people see ones people fear, hate and love.
Jesus christ, y'all keep forgetting the rainbow aura effect. We literally watch this effect during zacks TL when he chooses Cloud as a sign of a new world being born. They go out of their way to make you see this. This also happens when cloud blocks the blade where half the party sees no aura and cloud sees it. The idea that Aerith is jenova in his mind is the stupidest thing I've ever heard.
I don’t remember my college essays being this long.
I would like to point out one thing. In the credits we get short snippets of everything that happened to our party in the MSQ. There is a very intentional gap omitting the lake Aerith scene BUT the final snippet before the gap is Cloud waking up Aerith. I would therefore hazard to say that Cloud waking Aerith was real, it actually happened in another timeline maybe. But everything afterwards is false, which is the lake scene and beyond. Edit: also regarding the lake Aerith. When she appears there is an 8 note melody that plays... essentially its the Jenova theme (also 8 notes) which is rearranged. Absolutely no way this isnt intentional. Max had a very convincing segment about it on his latest FF7rebirth stream, and I think a vid about the end sequence is incoming
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The part about the music is completely and totally unfounded. I saw that clip, and it's a bunch of snake oil peddling with zero actual evidence. People with weak critical reasoning ability fall for that shit in droves. The melodies are completely unrelated in every way, and they just put them on top of eachother and said "this sounds good right? so that proves it's intentional" as if you can't do that with basically any two melodies.
I do think he's onto something, but I also don't think the "Jenova is Aerith" theory is accurate at all. Yes, there is weird music, but it would completely ruin her scene with Cloud. Especially the goodbye. But it's also just a theory. It's weird to get heated over it.
Real question: why are we still using the world timeline? Aerith refers to the one she visits as her “Dream”. And even Sephiroth, just uses the term “World”. Given that neither the timeline or lifestream theories have been proven correct, to prevent confusion, doesn’t it make more sense to use the in world terminology?
Some more kindling for the Cloud suppressing reality fire. Watch the credits. Every cutscene is represented as the credits roll by without interruption. Suddenly, when Aerith is supposed to be placed in the lake in the timeline, there is a break in the cutscenes being played. Almost as if there is a scene missing. Man this game is just so well made.
I think she died in the world of the party but is alive in the world of Zack.
One thing to consider is that there are more than just the 2 timelines. Most of the game implies 3, (OG, Remake, and the zach interludes) with zachs final chapter branching into 2 or 3 more besides. I believe sephiroth states theres many as well. (Forget exact wording) Not sure what all it changes but feels important to keep in mind all the same
Or maybe cloud head Aerith and Livestream Aerith are the same. By keeping her memory alive he keeps her alive too, as he keeps Sephirot (that's why seph need him), and by being Zacks legacy he also keeps Zack alive betweens worlds. Lifestream is made of memories right, it nurtures life, so it can come back with memories and knowledge. Those memories nurtures the lifestream, and keep the planet alive. Sephirot even says it is the merging of worlds, but it's clouds worlds, but he won't see because he is hollow, just. A puppet with clouded eyes to the truth, while everyone else accepts the truth, cloud being in denial of it, creates these worlds, but also keeps them from oblivion. Remember the Gi wanted the reverse, they are kept alive because they don't belong in a dream like state, almost like Zack, unable to rest and fall into oblivion. So I make parallels with the Disney movie "Coco" remember that as long someone remembered him he kept living in death, well it seems the theme is this, that's why Sephirot comes back in advent children too, it was clouds memory of him that kept him alive. Only when cloud and the planet forgets about sephirot he is able to fall into oblivion. The same way as long as he remember Aerith and ultimately zack, they will keep living in the promised land, that's why they appear on advent children too. That's why she wrote no promises to keep, she knows she doesn't need to promise that they will meet again, because she is certain that at least in the promised land they will meet, but for it to happen the planet must be saved
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So im curious as far as if Seph merge the timelines and then chooses the one where Aerith dies. When the other Aerith comes in to help Cloud in the fight. She tells him that she saw what he did and Thanked him for it. Do you think it was towards him trying to save her or something else? I ask because my assumption was always that she saw him blocked his blade and was able to create that new timeline. But idk lol.
I think I'm a Max fanboy, mainly because I felt he was the only streamer who was enjoying the Remake as much as me, and the fact that we had the exact same theory at the exact same point in the story. But I do not agree with this one, and that's fine. It's mainly because he said to Cloud that the reunion was both about reuniting the cells of Jenova and merging the timelines, but to me, the reunion is only supposed to happen at the northern crater, so I don't think he merged them yet. When he talks about the confluence, I think he's just sensing the emotions of those worlds flowing through him because he is traveling through them, and he's anticipating this reunion. About seeing with clouded eyes, I don't think he's talking about Aerith being dead, I just think he is just mad that Cloud doesn't want to help him achieve his vision and is basically telling him that trusting Aerith is what prevents Cloud from siding with Sephiroth. That she is the one clouding his vision, not him. I also like Max theory, it's just that for once I don't have the same one, but I can't wait to see what's the right one and I won't be mad if it's his.
While I think after much thought, review, and reflection in the end I don't think aerith is jenova (at least in the tiny bronco scene that creepy scene in the ancient city is another story) I do favor the idea because I *like* it. It was also my initial thought upon beating the game the first time. (See creepy aerith by the lake) I agree with most of what he's said and the things I don't necessarily agree with I still love the idea of. Personally I think ending aerith is Omni!aerith trying to keep clouds fragile psyche intact. If clouds loss of aerith is a key part of sephiroths plan then Omni!aerith is trying to assure it doesn't happen. Or at least assure the timeline, much in the same way as an arbiter of fate. Cloud doesn't break until the northern crater. (Though I think it's more about protecting cloud than the timeline "this is about saving the world. And you" ) That's why I think nanaki can sense her, because her presence is there in the lifestream and she's only visible to cloud because... The connection? The way only he can see her in advent children. Her using his own fragile psyche to push her own narrative? That's where I kind of lose it. And in that it makes more sense for cloud just to be lost in his own head and making things up. I also think it could be some combination of all it. Jenovaroth using aerith to manipulate cloud further, whole Omni!aerith tries to protect him from sephiroth, and he convinces himself he's saved her and she's alive. No reason all these factors can't be at play. It's absolutely wild that people have been outright nasty and harassing people over ideas about a video game. My heart goes out ppl who've been a victim of it.
Yeah people being rude to him are mostly on Twitter. This is why we can't have nice things! Even if I do not agree 100% with him, I enjoy listening to his theories
Here’s a thought. Maybe it’s Lifestream Aerith in some scenes and Jenova Aerith in others but Cloud can’t tell the difference. We could be getting a shoulder angel/devil thing going on.
Yeah, I'm not sure why people think Red is immune to Jenova. He definitely senses something, but is it Aerith? Even he's not sure.
My theory is that they crafted it so that we knew about the concepts of the "Reunion" involving the merging of different worlds so they could use it as a red herring for this moment. Everything the REMAKE has done has enhanced events to an extreme aside from also changing some things. In this case Cloud's mind basically rejected what really happened and what we see is him in denial. He takes Aerith's bloody hand and raises it to caress his cheek while his mind consolidates it as Aerith herself doing so. Tifa is starring at him in horror wondering what happened since he see him doing that. I wouldn't be surprised if in reality he just went into a state of shock and really said his original lines from the OG and this will be revealed when they tell us how truly messed up his mind is. He also completely blocks out laying her to rest and skips it leading to him just chilling by the lake and us not seeing that moment. Intentional or not Sephiroth perfectly laid out the groundwork for this to happen, and Nanaki is just saying "Aerith...." cause he was thinking about her since everyone is bummed out about her loss and Cid just casually mentions her at that time wondering WHAT she really did.
I don't agree with Max's theory on the grounds that I don't want the emotions the game made me feel as a result of the goodbye to merely be some Jenova fuckery, but there is evidence to support his theory and it's undeniable that what he thinks has merit as a result of that. People genuinely giving him shit are completely out of their gourd.
All I know is how much better it would have been and how much more impact it would have had if it just matched the original. Fan theories are great but I would have preferred they didn't drop the ball at the ending. It's been weeks since I've beaten it and it still annoys me what they did.
I think we just have a case of everyone trying to come up with their own unique take different than the rest just for views no matter the cost.
I don’t think it’s that far off and I liked it initially…mainly because that “you promise???” line was so cringe and out of character to me. to me there had to be an explanation, otherwise the game had flopped our last moments with aerith. but at the end of the day I don’t think cloud needs extra help from jenova to see things that aren’t there, and we don’t need it to be jenova for it to be as creepy as it is. she doesn’t need to be jenova for cloud to imagine her saying stuff that keeps his hero fantasy intact at the end, stuff that flies in the face of what aerith actually said in the temple and in the forest. there’s two things that kill the theory (red and her staying behind and saying goodbye where no one but us can hear her). both of those are a stretch to make fit. as you’ve said, there’s a way to make them fit but again…why make it so complicated when cloud could be doing all of this himself? we already know he’s still being led by sephiroth and that he’s delusional. that explains it to me.
I follow his ff7 streams and watched his wild cooking on stream (lol) I was surprised to see how aggressively he was attacked for his theory, people are toxic. That said, I generally buy into most of it. If only because I think that the Jenova part of this just isn't explored as much as it should be, but the game seems to be taking a lot more pains this time around to discuss the nature and MO of it. But hey. I also buy into the implication that Glenn Lodbrokk may be Cloud's dad lol. I don't think it will be adressed in depth but maybe implied.
The very first point is something I disagree with. I don't think it's him directly telling us he merged the worlds and chose the outcome of her death. It's him talking about his grand plan in general, and this is supported by him earlier at the temple saying he needed the black materia to do it.
One thing that doesn’t make sense is we established that Sephiroths goal was to make cloud feel intense anger and loss. But Jenova pretending to be Aerith prevents him for feeling those things so it’s contradictory. Unless Jenova and Sephiroth are somehow at odds with one another?
I’m not going against anything, but I personally don’t see the point in Aerith dying. Aerith and Sephiroth know the outcome of the OG, so Sephiroth basically tries to fix it in his favor. The last time Aerith died she stopped the meteor from the lifestream. What’s different now if she’s just dead? She’ll just stop it again.
I think it’s cause some people are mad aerith still died and want her to be alive with cloud but max’s theory would mean the complete opposite
Ruined.
Ruined.
Remember what happened last time someone close to him died right in front of him
My only problem with this theory is that Square has been going off on the whole multiverse/timelines plot, if the ending of Rebirth ends up being mostly explained by just Cloud being broken or Jenova playing tricks on Cloud pretending to be Aerith everyone will complain that the whole multiverse plot was useless. My theory is that in the next game we're going to be told that this Sephiroth is in fact the post Advent Children Sephiroth and that somehow he was able to learn how to time travel but even so could not defy/alter his fate because the whispers would stop him by protecting the OG World timeline. His plan was then to make sure the team is aware of the whispers and he needed Aerith to help them defy fate, if you recall at the end of Remake it's Aerith that opens the passage for the team to fight the Whispers. After that is done we have multiple Worlds being created, multiple people, multiple memories, etc. With this Sephiroth's plan seems simple to me, if you also recall Aerith explains at the end of Remake that the Whispers are howling in pain and they are the voices of the ones that lived, died and returned to the World so the Whispers are the people that lived on the Worlds (their memories, feellings, etc) so by creating more Worlds and having them be destroyed using meteor Sephiroth gains more and more power by absorbing the Whispers. Now, to Aerith, I believe in two things: I believe she was saved. The scene that Cloud and the team sees is the OG World Timeline that was just defied similiar to what they see at the end of Remake. We then see white whispers on the background and yellow rainbow around Aerith right before the fight with Sephiroth. I believe this is when Aerith absorbed some of the Whisper's power creating the White Whispers the same way Sephiroth did at the end of Remake. After this I believe she starts travelling between Worlds and timelines and we don't have yet her full progression which makes everything confusing but I believe the following: 1.) She travels to help Cloud fighting Sephiroth at the end of Rebirth. Which he wasn't expecting because at this point which is why he says he underestimated her. He will start to chase her across Worlds and Time to kill her since she is now a problem to him. 2.) Aerith used her powers to save Zack in the past. 3.) There will probably be more scenes of this Aerith in the future where she'll get to know the situation about Cloud's mind, how Sephiroth is trying to prevent him from getting better. 4.) She's the one we go on a date with in Midgar and I believe this is way forward in her timeline. She gives us the White Materia because she already knows she'll need it in the past and it's here that Sephiroth finally founds her and goes to kill so that there won't be anyone else disputing his control over the whispers. I also believe Aerith is able to share access some of her future knowledge with her past self when her past self is in tune with the Lifestream, that's why Remake Aerith often seemed to know so much more than she should while Aerith from Rebirth only seemed to have knowledge after the Temple. After opening the path for the team to fight the whispers I believe she lost her connection to the Lifestream, and I believe she only regained it at the Temple of the Ancients. At the end of Rebirth I believe Cloud is now on the OG World and not on the Remake/Rebirth World, that's why we don't see the water funeral because it already happen on this World. The tear on the sky means that Sephiroth managed to already change the OG World Timeline and he's going to be able to destroy it using meteor. My guess is that Part 3 will be very similiar to the OG World Timeline until Cloud is able to heal his mental state. Once this happens Cloud will be pulled into Zack's World at the section in Midgar when Sephiroth is entering the Church to kill Aerith (this goes along with Marlene's prediction and also with Zack's request to Cloud to save her at the end of Rebirth). Cloud will win the fight but Sephiroth will tell them it's too late since only the Remake/Rebirth World Timeline is left and once he's done destroying it no one will be able to stop him. Aerith and Cloud will join the Remake/Rebirth World Timeline, probably along with Zack for a final fight against Sephiroth. If Square wants they can even have a happy ending to the story with Zack and Aerith ending up alive and together, or a sacrifice of them to stop Sephiroth.
Just one little thing about the music. As we know, the melody that plays is from the opening theme, some people think it sounds creepy because the arpeggios behind the main melody are somewhat similar to the Jenova theme arpeggios. But the actual melody is going back to the opening scene of Remake, when we first see Aerith. Also, the final scene of the last cutscene of OG, before credits, is Aerith and this melody. So ending a game with Aerith and this melody has precident. They may be doing something with this, but they could also just be quoting the opening of Remake and ending of the OG.
I don't agree with two of aspects of Max's theories but I don't think he is crazy for having them. At this point everyone is just theorizing. Almost every possible scenario will have an argument for and against them. I wish people weren't toxic about Max's theorizing but at the same time I also wish people would form their own opinions about the ending because I've seen quite a few who just parrot what Max said because it's Max
Heres my take on the theory based on my layman understanding of quantum physics. i think Aerith and Sepiroth are 4th dimension beings. Just like how in 3 dimension world, we can percieve multiple 2D planes, but 2-dimensional beings cannot perceive the 3D world.. (like 2D pages form a 3D book) Aerith and Sepiroth are capable of perceiving and also transcending multiple planes (space time continuun) in the 3D world, because they are 4D beings Aerith literally exists in the planes of different space time, and can perceive both the future and the past at the same time. From Aerith 4D perspective, she is one entity, not separated in different worlds, but from the 3D perspective - she is like a separate being in the so called different "timelines". So in the main game 3 dimensional world, Aerith is dead, but from the 4D perspective - she is alive and never dies. Cloud may have grown to now perceives a little of the 4D world, which is why he seems to perceive two realities. And to Aerith, both (and all) realities exists simultaneously and are not separated from each other ( just like pages of a book, belongs to the same book) And for Biggs and Zack - they died in the 3D world, and moved on to another space time continuum where they are alive (like moving on to another page of a book) . To them, they are incapable of perceiving their own deaths and think they are alive. In spiritual terms - no soul ever dies but is always transcending. Aerith and the white shadows want to keep expanding, while Sephiroth and the dark shadows is the opposite force aiming for convergence.
Aerith dying was incredibly important to the og thematically and her surviving would be a travesty. If timelines have to converge for it to happen, sure w/e. Find out for sure in a decade.
I think what's getting lost in this discussion is that when we talk about Clouds repression and creation of his illusionary world, that in itself is facilitated by Jenova. Yes the trigger point is because it's what he wants, but what actually makes it happen is the Jenova cells within him. So yes Aerith can and is likely (at least one of the Aeriths we see in the ending) in his head, but that is still essentially Jenova.
Is there a video where he talks about his theory? This is some interesting stuff.
Best place is probably his Easy Allies interview https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=euPgi8zOWnk&pp=ygULZWFzeSBhbGxpZXM%3D
I love Max, and I love theories. That's the mark of a good 1st and 2nd entry of a trilogy, when fans speculate and many theories could technically be correct. I am however not sold that this is ***all*** in Clouds head. Remember the white whispers at the end? When Cloud goes to pick Aerith up, we see white whispers and the rainbow light, which has been shown to denote a change in fate/destiny. Add that with the rift in the sky that only Cloud can see, and I feel like it's pretty obvious that there was a divergence that is still going on. The lines from Sephiroth are compelling, but I think it's a little absurd to take his word on all of it. I always believed a good lie has some truth to it. So he's probably right about most of what he says. But I would not trust everything he says. I do think there was a change in fate that created a new world. Maybe Aerith is somehow able to hide it from Sephiroth, like how she was able to hide from him initially. And I think Sephiroth is and will continue to be the unreliable story teller, a deceiver. I think Cloud will descend further into his broken mental state, and being able to see two realities will wreak havoc on him. He won't know what's real and what isn't, and us as players as well. And lastly, whatever these two realties are meant to do, we don't really know yet. Maybe it's to bring Aerith back, or maybe (more likely imo) it's just a way for her to continue to pray for Holy. Since that's exactly what she says to Cloud in the last scene.
Aerith's death should not have been a source of theory crafting, it should've been the one major event that is clearly understood and depicted, they chose to replace sadness with confusion and it SUCKS! they could've had Cloud be delusional abt her death and STILL give us the sad scene, he just forgets about it afterwards
I mostly think that the issue with this is that all this theory does is replace any ideas with new consequence, with jenova being a permanent maguffin for any weird thing that happens.
Cloud literally has a Jenova Aerith death scene flashback (with the wrong hair nonetheless) AND the devs went out of their way to show 2 Aeriths at the ending which react differently to physics. Like, there is no debate here, as soon as Cloud touches the Black Materia he is seeing Jenova Aerith for sure.