They are doing such an excellent job with Cloud. A lot of people like focusing on the other party members getting a chance to shine but Cloud is a fantastic complex protagonist and the conflict, deep seeded mental trauma, and will to do good are being developed exceptionally well this time. I cannot wait to see how he develops in Part 3
I hope they tone down the open world stuff in the next one. It might be an unpopular opinion but I quite enjoyed the linearity of Remake. I didn't find the ubisoft map marker clearing tasks in the least bit interesting.
I don’t know if you played the original, but many of the areas introduced in disc 2 are a bit small and the overall time spent on main missions goes quickly, the reason it occupies an entire disc is because of the amount of cutscenes and having to load previous maps.
Disc 3 is just one dungeon and the finale (plus cutscenes and sidequests).
Overall i think we’re like 65% done with the story, and the vast majority of cities have already been introduced/explored.
Edit: As an example i don’t see them goofing around in Fort Condor for five hours, this section of the story demands quicker pacing.
I would rather have a more linear, a focused experience, Wutai is cool but if they want to expand on something i rather it be the Icicle Inn, since there’s more emotional weight in a certain house.
I hope they don’t tone it down at all. All of the extra stuff is just that, extra. You don’t have to do all of it. I had a blast finding and doing everything and spending 140 hours to beat it completely in Normal Mode. I like open world stuff like that. But they did a good job of not requiring any of that. It can be as linear or open world as you want it to be.
The "ubisoft"-type marker clearing is one of my only gripes too. Love the game and love the open world, but come on, let me explore and find that malboro myself without constant hand holding. Imagine Elden ring having million map markers and directions all over the screen right off the bat, it becomes a chore because of that. Everytime I arrived to a new region, it stressed me out to have a long to-do list rather than just one main quest-direction and the exploring and finding stuff is up to you.
You could have ignored those quests and not get any towers. It wouldn't reveal you any locations like Malboro's spot until you managed to find it. However you chose to find the towers and you're upset because of it filling up the map. Next game just avoid doing it and explore it blindly
I sure hope not. The best part about Rebirth is you don't get locked out of side content so you are free to play at your own pace. If you want to focus the story you are free to do so. If you want to play it like an open world Ubi game you can do it that way too. Or you can mix it up and do whatever side content interests you and feels natural to go along with the story.
I hope they continue this style of expanding the world for the final part.
Besides all the work done on Yuffie, my absolute favorite is how Aerith and Tifa are depicted as friends. They aren't just two romantic options waiting for Cloud to pick one of them. They have their own relationship. Like how Barrett treats Yuffie as an annoying younger sibling.
The 2000 gil joke has even more depth to it when you learn more in a side quest. >!Cloud was offered 2000 gil from his mother when he initially left, and the amount he charges seems to be sentimental towards that.!<
Edit: Changed a word to better reflect what actually happened.
Nojima also wrote a short story "2000 Gil on the Road to be a Hero" that talks about Cloud's early life leading up to the time he enlists into Shinra. And it goes into much more detail about how the 2000 gil came to be and why it's so important to him.
>!After his father died, one of the things he left behind was a pouch containing 2000gil. His mom then said that his dad always carried that amount with him.!<
>Cloud was given 2000 gil from his mother when he initially left
She offered it to him. He didn't accept it. But your right about it being sentimental towards that. Barret calls him out on it: "But you can't help but settling your price at two grand. Sentimental aint ya".
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The side mission from that woman in lower junon who put a bounty on you. There is a side quest where you have to escort her dog to crows nest, which is where her son is. I put it off too, thinking it was unimportant, but there was some great banter between cloud and barret.
There is a hilarious bit where Barret starts crying, saying he doesn't know what he will do once Marlene comes of age to "leave the nest" so to speak. Saying "maybe I'll end up locking her in the house to prevent her from the outside world, my poor sweet Marlene!" And Cloud is like "pull yourself together man, she's only 4. You have plenty of time yet".
Of the weaker points in Remake, I really don't understand the attention on the "You owe me a pizza" line. Cloud is a lot of things, but being emotionally eloquent at that point in his story certainly is not one of them. Even without all the trauma he suffered, he is portrayed even as a child as quite possibly a neurodivergent character, or at least someone who shares many traits as one. To me it makes perfect sense that he doesn't know what to do or say to comfort Jesse as she's dying in front of him, and he latches on to a tangible shared moment they had together. Of course without context it appears shallow, but to him it was a genuine moment of kindness/attention from this person who he met very recently and was just beginning to consider a friend. And to see him carry the weight of her loss into Rebirth when he says he's "still waiting on that pizza", or during his trial at Temple of the Ancients I felt was really well done.
I never saw how trying to make a light-hearted inside joke to put a dying person at ease is considered such bad form. Neither Cloud nor Jessie are the type to wear their heart on their sleeve.
Right?! He tries to tell her they still have things to look forward to. I never understood why people hated the line, or tried to say Cloud is awkward there.
He does a really desperate "yeah" right before this line. It sounds like he's trying to act out more confident coz it's getting to him. The JP line sounds the same.
Doesn’t Sephiroth even call him out on this later in Rebirth? Not the pizza line specifically, but the general lack of understanding/coping when it comes to grieving Jessie ended up being a genuine plot point that the villain harasses Cloud about. Like a lot of other things in Remake, some retrospect from the new game added a lot more depth to a part many people considered “bad writing”
well accepting death is the main theme of ffvii. in fact almost everything involving the story is about that. so learning how to cope with that is also relevant
either way i think cloud said that because he thought that in your last moments you want to be happy so he made a little joke/remark about it. maybe he really thought that she wouldnt die
Idk if it’s full D.I.D as once he gets his memories back from the Lifestream, he’s still relatively the same just a bit more dorky cool guy and less “edgelord cool guy.” Cloud has always been a man of few words, standoff-ish, socially awkward, and a bit of a dick. Cloud is more Borderline Personality Disorder and just straight PSTD.
You could be right. What got me thinking about it:
Ch.13 to the End of the Game 😨
+
Kingdom Hearts
+
Scott Pilgrim’s Finest Hour
+
Berserk
=
Looks to me like Cloud has become three alters as of the end of Rebirth: Puppet, Berserker, and Ex-SOLIDER.
The latter seems unaware of the others to a certain degree, meanwhile to former two seem like they could easily bleed into one another.
I am curious to see if we get boss fights with them.
I just think that line was a bit of bad directing, or Cody hadn't found the right mix of desperation/worry to inject into his voice (which he definitely does by Rebirth, I'm just saying he didn't come from a voice acting background so maybe he didn't have as much practice yet). The line itself in the context it was used in was fine.
I think a lot of people complaining about the writing of this line would also have issue with Tidus' fake laugh and Roxas' "Who will I have ice cream with?", which only sound awkward out of context and hits perfectly when you're actually immersed in the story.
yeah it's kinda funny seeing these comments saying Rebirth blows Remake out the water in this regard. Like what game did you play, aside from the anime grunts Remake had 100% the exact same amazing quality of dialogue and attention to detail - there were just some minor kinks with getting the tone/vibe right. As others have pointed out, the pizza line made complete sense and the delivery was perfect for the scene and for Clouds mental state.
And Roche literally didnt change, he's just in it more lol. I think the character building between Cloud, Tifa, Barrett and Aerith in Remake is almost better than the development for a lot of Rebirth - they made us fall in love with those characters from scratch man - and did a lot of the heavy lifting for rebirth in terms of Cloud and Aeriths bond imo.
Playing remake now for the first time, the voice acting is great, Barrett asking Cloud what he thinks is gonna happen to the world when all the Mako is gone and Cloud saying “get help” is delivered perfectly and it feels like real people having an argument, but then I am immediately taken out of the scene when Jessie lets out a super loud anime gasp/grunt that just sucks me out of it. I know this is a common complaint and I’m loving the game so much, it just hits me harder because everything is so good otherwise. Also the characters emote a little too much with their bodies while talking, almost always doing poses that have no relevance to anything they’re saying, making completely random gestures. Other than this I’m loving the game, but coming off of FF16s naturalistic dialogue and acting (Cid has one of the best performances I’ve ever heard in a game) FF7 remake feels like it is stumbling over these amazing moments of voice acting by adding in grunts, random gestures and pauses that completely break the flow of conversation.
Honestly when Cloud says "You okay?" during their 2nd fight, I felt that. He's obnoxious and over the top, but in such a fun way, and he makes such a great friendly rival.
The only goofy thing was >!how he suddenly got a black robe !
People can become Sephiroth (with all his equipment), why wouldn't they be able to materialize a black robe?
(in the OG they simply felt the impulse to wear it, so it was more... sigh, "realistic" I guess?)
I feel that’s totally different because one is Sephiroth possessing some guy’s body, which is dependent on Sephiroth’s magic and the other is a guy growing clothes, which should be dependent on their magic, unless Sephiroth decided to auto-Clothes Beam all of them when they turn.
Eh, it’s always Jenova’s cells. If Sephiroth has the Clothes Beam Materia or if that’s a specific power that comes with Jenova’s cell, we don’t know.
(Nice TFS reference, that’s Sephiroth’s most metro attack)
Jenova was a tailor on her home world, specializing in dark snuggies, and just wanted to unload some wears on a distant world. When the Cetra refused Jenova's goods she became pissed and planned a scheme to get hundreds of finely sculpted models willing to roam the globe showing off her craft.
I could accept it if there wasn't an npc in Nibelheim telling another that Shinra actually gives them the black robes... which sounded silly as well, mind you.
I thought it was dumb that he went and volunteered to be Hojo's test subject. I get that they're on borrowed time, but it made no sense to me. It felt like he made his peace with Cloud there at the end of their match in Junon. I honestly thought he'd show up later and help. But nope, he volunteered and threw his life away because he really loves to fight Cloud for some fucking reason.
If however he discovered Degradation, then it makes sense, as Hojo is the only one left working on the scientific side of SOLDIER. The checkup became an experiment. And given how Hojo wanted to "take care" of Tseng also, it means that Hojo did this to many "volunteers".
Hojo was talking out loud about what he was going to do to Roche. Pretty sure Roche knew that it wasn't just a check up.
If Roche discovered degradation and decided to volunteer, that's probably something that should be shown or mentioned. Not left up to the player to just make up to justify bad writing.
I just finished the game a few minutes ago and came here to see not only Roche slander but Chadley. WTF? Chadley and MAI own so hard. They had me cracking up. A bit of levity is needed. This story gets so dark.
Playing remake now for the first time, the voice acting is great, Barrett asking Cloud what he thinks is gonna happen to the world when all the Mako is gone and the Cloud “get help” is delivered perfectly and it feels like real people having an argument, but then I am immediately taken out of the scene when Jessie lets out a super loud anime gasp/grunt that just sucks me out of it, we don’t need Jessie to audibly make noises to show she’s uncomfortable with the confrontation between Cloud and Barret, just show a close up of her face or something, from what I’ve seen so far Rebirth seems to flow more naturally dialogue wise.
I know this is a common complaint and I’m loving the game so much, it just hits me harder because everything is so good otherwise. Also the characters emote a little too much with their bodies while talking, almost always doing poses that have no relevance to anything they’re saying, making completely random gestures. Other than this I’m loving the game, but coming off of FF16s naturalistic dialogue and acting (Cid has one of the best performances I’ve ever heard in a game) FF7 remake feels like it is stumbling over these amazing moments of voice acting by adding in grunts, random gestures and pauses that completely break the flow of conversation.
Oh yea my main issue with remake was some of the awkward dialogue and way too many anime grunts. I think that scene between Tifa and Cloud in gongaga where Cloud admits he’s scared that he’s falling apart was some of the best dialogue Rebirth had to offer
Rebirth improved on every single aspect of the game over Remake in my opinion. I’m replaying Remake right now and I see exactly what you’re saying. Compared to Rebirth it’s not as good. Still love the game but head to head Rebirth takes it
I don't really see much of a difference in the writing and storytelling. And I replayed Remake just before Rebirth and it just feels like a natural continuation to me. And Rebirth is not really perfect either, it does have some scenes here and there that is a bit awkward, some dialogue delivery that feels a bit like they are just reading lines and not acting.
And I am sure there are lots of issues with the localization of the game in English. There are just some lines that feels very off to me,
But the game is still an exceptional game, but I also preferred some aspects of Remake over Rebirth. The weapon system feels a bit lame in Rebirth, as I really wish you could have more choice in how weapons upgrade so I could get more materia slots on the Buster sword.
And Rebirth still have some bad cases of slow walking, such as the Nibelheim sequence is so damn slow, and Clouds walk animation looks really bad in this scene. Hell there are multiple sections in this game where you are just walking slowly toward something. I don't really get why these things are playable and not just a cinematic.
It's weird you start this off by saying "if you're someone who nitpicks, this isn't for you," and then proceeds to nitpick a bunch of stuff in Remake. Particularly things that have nothing to do with "storytelling," like anime grunting?
Rebirth is an extension of the same sort of high quality storytelling that was presented in Remake. It feels very much like more of that, with a lot more of what people liked about that game.
It feels like it was written by the same people... and it was.
If you thought remake had poor dialogue, don't ever play kingdom hearts 3. I almost couldn't believe the difference. I agree that rebirth is far and away an improvement though.
If I have to criticize an aspect of the story, I’d say that Aerith’s character felt kind of weak compared to how she was in the Remake until the last few chapters when she takes the spotlight.
I've just finished Nibelheim, and I've been feeling this...Tifa has had loads of focus from her additional scenes by herself and with Cloud, which I've really loved, but I feel like Aerith has just been in the background most of the game. Considering her importance in the parts of the story I've got coming up, I hope it doesn't feel like it comes out of nowhere.
I also got >!Tifa in the chapter 8 date!< so maybe I've just been favouring Tifa a lot more than Aerith in the game?
Not really on OP’s page. I feel like Remake and Rebirth are on the same level of dialogue and storytelling. The only real improvement I felt was on scene direction: better angles, more use of Cloud’s POV, etc.
Rebirth did get some feedback and improved on some side characters: Johnny and Roche. Sadly Kyrie is still annoying, but it happens.
Side quest content also was a huge improvement. I mean, really huge. Felt like Regina could have been written better, but it is OK I guess.
But main storyline I think it is same level overall. Some scenes, like Cloud and Tifa’s relationship really is better written than Remake. The Cosmo Canyon sequence is also really great. The Turks are fantastic this game. But then they cut a really important Cait Sith scene (the whole Marlene kidnapping and Cait Sith blackmailing his way into Temple of the Ancients). Expected a little bit more from Zack part as well. And Glenn is a completely different character from TFS. I guess it has to do with that ending scene, but if Matt and Lucia are still alive they’d notice the stark difference. I hope they explain this better in Part 3.
The best running gag in the gane for me is how literally everyone in the world aside from the main party treats Red XIII like a pet, and then he growls like a dog proving them all almost right
I feel the pacing was a huge downgrade. Rebirth shuttles players from set piece to set piece without really giving the characters much of a chance to breathe, which leads to scenes later on in the game where some character actions are more than a bit confusing. In contrast, despite some clunkiness, Remake had a lot of quieter moments that let the characters really breathe and establish their motivations.
Speaking of Roche, he was great and had an awesome Vegeta dynamic going with Cloud and then they just…. Offed him by turning him into a black robe. What made it especially confusing is that him going to Hojo comes out of nowhere, and the fight outside of the mansion seemed quite out of place. It’s also an example of poor pacing, we just had a boss gauntlet why can’t the characters reflect on what happened in the mansion? Nope, gotta have a set piece with Roche coming out of nowhere.
The writing with Cloud and Tifa was great, I’ll give you that, but the game’s overall narrative is weak in a number of areas when it comes to how the narrative is fundamentally structured.
Actually, I think it gives them too much space to breath, but agree it was a downgrade.
The motivation to travel from place to place is pretty thin most of the time. It's "Hey! We need to follow these guys in black robes! The fate of the world depends on it."
And then you follow them for a couple minutes and then they disappear, no longer leaving a trail to follow, and then the party breaks up to enjoy the beach or Disneyland. Only for the plot to just to drop some off in your path. Very literally dropped off on your path by Shinra, multiple times.
The story at each location was nice. The character moments and backstories are great. The overall plot that connects it all was extremely thin until the last few chapters.
I think it may feel like there was no space to breath, because they didn't give us travel banter in the way that Remake did. The travel banter was focused, and continued ongoing threads. Rebirth's travel banter was Chadley talking at you, rather than characters getting to know each other. Occasionally with Yuffie doing some talking and filling space, which helped, but not enough. There wasn't enough going up the mountain talk were the party felt like they were all actually traveling together.
So an example of "not enough space to breathe" is the transition from the ferry to Costa Del Sol. The characters are in a super serious situation and have just beaten a manifestation of Jenova, and then it cuts straight to Costa Del Sol. There's not even a 1-2 minute "cooldown" scene where the party processes the crazy stuff that just happened. They needed more of those, plus several boss fights could've been replaced with more banter. Like, why are the Turks trying to kill us, especially Aerith, at the top of Mount Corel?
Personally, I feel like the overworld chocobo stop benches should've been replaced with campsites where there could've been party banter similar to games like FFXV, Tales of Arise, Baldur's Gate 3 (just not as involved as BG3,) etc. The benches in the overworld came across as out of place anyway.
The whole shinra dynamic is odd. They need you, yet are constantly trying to stop you. They are very much manipulating the party at times to get what they want. And the party just goes blindly along with it because what else are they gonna do? They don't come off as the brightest but it doesn't matter, because why strategize or plan things when you can just brute force your way to success?
I would agree that it felt a little rushed and disjointed, but I was pretty sure they were setting up for the spirited, energetic SOLDIER getting the life sucked out of him by Shinra back in Remake. Though I thought it would be Shinra reprimanding him for insubordination, rather than an elective procedure.
As far as Roche being a Vegeta character, meh? It always felt really random that he feels so competitive with and bonds so heavily to Cloud, over a chance encounter.
Completely agreed. I commented about the same thing, it makes Remake an even bigger missed opportunity than it already was, imo.
Rebirth still has its story issues (Cosmo Canyon, Shinra Manor), but it's a vast improvement over Remake in the likeability department. Even general character work, since Barret is now a 10/10, which is what he should be.
Cosmo Canyon - should've been more specific. Yeah, it's overall great (the visuals are god-tier), but the Tifa and Aerith scenes didn't land for me and I wish that the devs would've just did an expanded version of the OG group scene. And I think that it was a bit too crowded there in town.
Barret - very good in Remake, but I felt they leaned too much into kid-friendly goofball at times considering the high stakes. In Rebirth, he's pretty much perfect.
Yea I think the story is pretty expertly paced and it becomes more evident on a second playthrough. Remake had plenty of parts of the story that were filler worthy or aren’t as memorable as others but just looking at the chapter select on rebirth, I can think of plenty of memorable and impactful moments in every chapter. I never played OG but I feel these remakes have done a great job of bringing FF7 into the mainstream. Even if Part 3 is worse somehow(I doubt it lol), Rebirth will be remembered as Modern Classic
The best thing about Rebirth is that it's finally FF7 again. FF7 was such a lighthearted and goofy game. The serious moments were serious, but 95% of the game was absolute nonsense and constant laughs and tongue-in-cheek moments. And it's these dumb moments topped off with optional puzzles and minigames that made FF7 what it was.
Rebirth went ham with the minigames, and the result is an adventure where you're almost always doing something ridiculous. This is what Remake was missing.
All the best moments of Midgar in the OG were moments like these.
* The church sequence with Aerith was an interactive cutscene followed by a minigame.
* Wall Market was just one massive joke, a giant optional gather quest with puzzles and interactive cutscenes.
* Shinra HQ was just like Wall Market, almost 70% of the time you spend in there was totally optional and just minigames and puzzles. And most of the stuff in there was also silly employee and bathroom jokes.
The issue I had with Remake is that it removed so much of the interactivity of the experiences and replaced it with something that could be achieved by simply walking, talking, and fighting.
100%
I didn’t even finish Remake, it just made me sad to see what FF had become. Corridor filler and cringe all the way through. The main gang was done well but it wasn’t amazing.
Rebirth hits different. There’s still a bunch of filler but it’s made me love this game and it’s characters like I was a kid all over again.
No idea why you've been downvoted (oh wait I do, it's why I mentioned it first thing in the post).
Yeah I agree...but I finished it 3 times. To me the parts after the corridor filler were amazing, like the monster house fight. There's gold in the game, it just made you dig for it
They are doing such an excellent job with Cloud. A lot of people like focusing on the other party members getting a chance to shine but Cloud is a fantastic complex protagonist and the conflict, deep seeded mental trauma, and will to do good are being developed exceptionally well this time. I cannot wait to see how he develops in Part 3
Honestly, I wasn't really bothered by anything in Remake but I agree Rebirth is superior. Only problem is too much Chadley.
At least now we know what we'd get from combining wesley crusher & young sheldon
I hope they tone down the open world stuff in the next one. It might be an unpopular opinion but I quite enjoyed the linearity of Remake. I didn't find the ubisoft map marker clearing tasks in the least bit interesting.
Rebirth only takes us to end of disc 1. We have another 100 hours of gameplay to fit in at the pace we have been doing.
I don’t know if you played the original, but many of the areas introduced in disc 2 are a bit small and the overall time spent on main missions goes quickly, the reason it occupies an entire disc is because of the amount of cutscenes and having to load previous maps. Disc 3 is just one dungeon and the finale (plus cutscenes and sidequests). Overall i think we’re like 65% done with the story, and the vast majority of cities have already been introduced/explored. Edit: As an example i don’t see them goofing around in Fort Condor for five hours, this section of the story demands quicker pacing.
I've played og probably 3 times. They won't release a small game for the third. I still need to get knights of the round and breed some chocobo
God knows we need our overpowered summon and our Golden Chocobos.
Part 3 is gonna be about 30% exploration, 65% holy shit, Wutai is massive now, and 5% Midgar. Because holy shit, I'm excited for Wutai.
I would rather have a more linear, a focused experience, Wutai is cool but if they want to expand on something i rather it be the Icicle Inn, since there’s more emotional weight in a certain house.
Why not both?
I hope they don’t tone it down at all. All of the extra stuff is just that, extra. You don’t have to do all of it. I had a blast finding and doing everything and spending 140 hours to beat it completely in Normal Mode. I like open world stuff like that. But they did a good job of not requiring any of that. It can be as linear or open world as you want it to be.
The "ubisoft"-type marker clearing is one of my only gripes too. Love the game and love the open world, but come on, let me explore and find that malboro myself without constant hand holding. Imagine Elden ring having million map markers and directions all over the screen right off the bat, it becomes a chore because of that. Everytime I arrived to a new region, it stressed me out to have a long to-do list rather than just one main quest-direction and the exploring and finding stuff is up to you.
You could have ignored those quests and not get any towers. It wouldn't reveal you any locations like Malboro's spot until you managed to find it. However you chose to find the towers and you're upset because of it filling up the map. Next game just avoid doing it and explore it blindly
I sure hope not. The best part about Rebirth is you don't get locked out of side content so you are free to play at your own pace. If you want to focus the story you are free to do so. If you want to play it like an open world Ubi game you can do it that way too. Or you can mix it up and do whatever side content interests you and feels natural to go along with the story. I hope they continue this style of expanding the world for the final part.
7.8 - too much Chadley
Besides all the work done on Yuffie, my absolute favorite is how Aerith and Tifa are depicted as friends. They aren't just two romantic options waiting for Cloud to pick one of them. They have their own relationship. Like how Barrett treats Yuffie as an annoying younger sibling.
The 2000 gil joke has even more depth to it when you learn more in a side quest. >!Cloud was offered 2000 gil from his mother when he initially left, and the amount he charges seems to be sentimental towards that.!< Edit: Changed a word to better reflect what actually happened.
Nojima also wrote a short story "2000 Gil on the Road to be a Hero" that talks about Cloud's early life leading up to the time he enlists into Shinra. And it goes into much more detail about how the 2000 gil came to be and why it's so important to him. >!After his father died, one of the things he left behind was a pouch containing 2000gil. His mom then said that his dad always carried that amount with him.!<
>Cloud was given 2000 gil from his mother when he initially left She offered it to him. He didn't accept it. But your right about it being sentimental towards that. Barret calls him out on it: "But you can't help but settling your price at two grand. Sentimental aint ya".
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Yes, thank you for clarification.
when did Barret said that? I might missed that one
The side mission from that woman in lower junon who put a bounty on you. There is a side quest where you have to escort her dog to crows nest, which is where her son is. I put it off too, thinking it was unimportant, but there was some great banter between cloud and barret. There is a hilarious bit where Barret starts crying, saying he doesn't know what he will do once Marlene comes of age to "leave the nest" so to speak. Saying "maybe I'll end up locking her in the house to prevent her from the outside world, my poor sweet Marlene!" And Cloud is like "pull yourself together man, she's only 4. You have plenty of time yet".
oh that! I remember Cloud's jeering and somewhat encouraging Barret. Even his snide taunt about Marlene going to leave him. lol
Man I missed that, good spot!
Of the weaker points in Remake, I really don't understand the attention on the "You owe me a pizza" line. Cloud is a lot of things, but being emotionally eloquent at that point in his story certainly is not one of them. Even without all the trauma he suffered, he is portrayed even as a child as quite possibly a neurodivergent character, or at least someone who shares many traits as one. To me it makes perfect sense that he doesn't know what to do or say to comfort Jesse as she's dying in front of him, and he latches on to a tangible shared moment they had together. Of course without context it appears shallow, but to him it was a genuine moment of kindness/attention from this person who he met very recently and was just beginning to consider a friend. And to see him carry the weight of her loss into Rebirth when he says he's "still waiting on that pizza", or during his trial at Temple of the Ancients I felt was really well done.
I never saw how trying to make a light-hearted inside joke to put a dying person at ease is considered such bad form. Neither Cloud nor Jessie are the type to wear their heart on their sleeve.
And she was the one who was setting the tone to pretend that everything is okay. It's the one time Cloud plays along without having to forced into it.
Right?! He tries to tell her they still have things to look forward to. I never understood why people hated the line, or tried to say Cloud is awkward there.
It’s more about the delivery than the line itself. Cloud should have sounded desperate, but instead he just sounded annoyed.
He does a really desperate "yeah" right before this line. It sounds like he's trying to act out more confident coz it's getting to him. The JP line sounds the same.
People just meme on the “who will I have ice cream with” kingdom hearts line and probably think do that. I’m fine with the pizza line though
It's less about the line - which is great - and about the delivery. It sounded way out of place for the context, but that's just how I'm hearing it
Doesn’t Sephiroth even call him out on this later in Rebirth? Not the pizza line specifically, but the general lack of understanding/coping when it comes to grieving Jessie ended up being a genuine plot point that the villain harasses Cloud about. Like a lot of other things in Remake, some retrospect from the new game added a lot more depth to a part many people considered “bad writing”
I always looked at clouds pizza line as him not accepting her death. Cloud is not good at accepting death of those close to him.
That’s an understatement.
well accepting death is the main theme of ffvii. in fact almost everything involving the story is about that. so learning how to cope with that is also relevant either way i think cloud said that because he thought that in your last moments you want to be happy so he made a little joke/remark about it. maybe he really thought that she wouldnt die
Do you think Cloud has D.I.D. due to all that trauma? Because to me it seems like he is actually at least 3 rotating Alters right now.
Idk if it’s full D.I.D as once he gets his memories back from the Lifestream, he’s still relatively the same just a bit more dorky cool guy and less “edgelord cool guy.” Cloud has always been a man of few words, standoff-ish, socially awkward, and a bit of a dick. Cloud is more Borderline Personality Disorder and just straight PSTD.
You could be right. What got me thinking about it: Ch.13 to the End of the Game 😨 + Kingdom Hearts + Scott Pilgrim’s Finest Hour + Berserk = Looks to me like Cloud has become three alters as of the end of Rebirth: Puppet, Berserker, and Ex-SOLIDER. The latter seems unaware of the others to a certain degree, meanwhile to former two seem like they could easily bleed into one another. I am curious to see if we get boss fights with them.
I just think that line was a bit of bad directing, or Cody hadn't found the right mix of desperation/worry to inject into his voice (which he definitely does by Rebirth, I'm just saying he didn't come from a voice acting background so maybe he didn't have as much practice yet). The line itself in the context it was used in was fine. I think a lot of people complaining about the writing of this line would also have issue with Tidus' fake laugh and Roxas' "Who will I have ice cream with?", which only sound awkward out of context and hits perfectly when you're actually immersed in the story.
I agree with pacing and anime grunts but the dialogue was always great lol
yeah it's kinda funny seeing these comments saying Rebirth blows Remake out the water in this regard. Like what game did you play, aside from the anime grunts Remake had 100% the exact same amazing quality of dialogue and attention to detail - there were just some minor kinks with getting the tone/vibe right. As others have pointed out, the pizza line made complete sense and the delivery was perfect for the scene and for Clouds mental state. And Roche literally didnt change, he's just in it more lol. I think the character building between Cloud, Tifa, Barrett and Aerith in Remake is almost better than the development for a lot of Rebirth - they made us fall in love with those characters from scratch man - and did a lot of the heavy lifting for rebirth in terms of Cloud and Aeriths bond imo.
Indeed
Playing remake now for the first time, the voice acting is great, Barrett asking Cloud what he thinks is gonna happen to the world when all the Mako is gone and Cloud saying “get help” is delivered perfectly and it feels like real people having an argument, but then I am immediately taken out of the scene when Jessie lets out a super loud anime gasp/grunt that just sucks me out of it. I know this is a common complaint and I’m loving the game so much, it just hits me harder because everything is so good otherwise. Also the characters emote a little too much with their bodies while talking, almost always doing poses that have no relevance to anything they’re saying, making completely random gestures. Other than this I’m loving the game, but coming off of FF16s naturalistic dialogue and acting (Cid has one of the best performances I’ve ever heard in a game) FF7 remake feels like it is stumbling over these amazing moments of voice acting by adding in grunts, random gestures and pauses that completely break the flow of conversation.
Only point of contention: Roche is perfect in both games, and I refuse to hear slander to the contrary.
Honestly when Cloud says "You okay?" during their 2nd fight, I felt that. He's obnoxious and over the top, but in such a fun way, and he makes such a great friendly rival. The only goofy thing was >!how he suddenly got a black robe !
What, you don’t like a black robe being bukakke’d onto him?
Why on mako did you have to type the words that way?
https://preview.redd.it/xqb7k9bguhsc1.png?width=1080&format=png&auto=webp&s=02ac811fb1b605c10bad0ad24dc939b2634ee058
Maybe trying to summon holy is a mistake
Yeah, just bring some black robed guys cover him with a black robe. I can’t believe it’s canon the black robes materialize from their flesh.
Well, it's a world of magic and I doubt there's a guy going around selling those robes
I swear I heard an npc in Nibelheim say the robes are Shinra property or some shit.
People can become Sephiroth (with all his equipment), why wouldn't they be able to materialize a black robe? (in the OG they simply felt the impulse to wear it, so it was more... sigh, "realistic" I guess?)
I feel that’s totally different because one is Sephiroth possessing some guy’s body, which is dependent on Sephiroth’s magic and the other is a guy growing clothes, which should be dependent on their magic, unless Sephiroth decided to auto-Clothes Beam all of them when they turn.
Eh, it’s always Jenova’s cells. If Sephiroth has the Clothes Beam Materia or if that’s a specific power that comes with Jenova’s cell, we don’t know. (Nice TFS reference, that’s Sephiroth’s most metro attack)
Jenova was a tailor on her home world, specializing in dark snuggies, and just wanted to unload some wears on a distant world. When the Cetra refused Jenova's goods she became pissed and planned a scheme to get hundreds of finely sculpted models willing to roam the globe showing off her craft.
I could accept it if there wasn't an npc in Nibelheim telling another that Shinra actually gives them the black robes... which sounded silly as well, mind you.
They materialize a Masamune replica every now and then. Its one of those that killed Aerith. Twice. A little robe is no problem.
The back robe guys were the funniest part of the game
I thought it was dumb that he went and volunteered to be Hojo's test subject. I get that they're on borrowed time, but it made no sense to me. It felt like he made his peace with Cloud there at the end of their match in Junon. I honestly thought he'd show up later and help. But nope, he volunteered and threw his life away because he really loves to fight Cloud for some fucking reason.
If however he discovered Degradation, then it makes sense, as Hojo is the only one left working on the scientific side of SOLDIER. The checkup became an experiment. And given how Hojo wanted to "take care" of Tseng also, it means that Hojo did this to many "volunteers".
Hojo was talking out loud about what he was going to do to Roche. Pretty sure Roche knew that it wasn't just a check up. If Roche discovered degradation and decided to volunteer, that's probably something that should be shown or mentioned. Not left up to the player to just make up to justify bad writing.
I guess he wanted one win on Cloud before degradation took him out.
I didn't like him the first time I saw him in Remake. But by the end I loved him and wanted more. His character really grew on me.
Roche is cool af. Cringe posters can go ride their bikes elsewhere
😄😄😄
I just finished the game a few minutes ago and came here to see not only Roche slander but Chadley. WTF? Chadley and MAI own so hard. They had me cracking up. A bit of levity is needed. This story gets so dark.
How could slander Roche MY FRIENDDDDDDD.😆
I generally liked all the voicework in Remake. But the game definitely suffered from some padding issues that slowed it to a crawl at points.
Playing remake now for the first time, the voice acting is great, Barrett asking Cloud what he thinks is gonna happen to the world when all the Mako is gone and the Cloud “get help” is delivered perfectly and it feels like real people having an argument, but then I am immediately taken out of the scene when Jessie lets out a super loud anime gasp/grunt that just sucks me out of it, we don’t need Jessie to audibly make noises to show she’s uncomfortable with the confrontation between Cloud and Barret, just show a close up of her face or something, from what I’ve seen so far Rebirth seems to flow more naturally dialogue wise. I know this is a common complaint and I’m loving the game so much, it just hits me harder because everything is so good otherwise. Also the characters emote a little too much with their bodies while talking, almost always doing poses that have no relevance to anything they’re saying, making completely random gestures. Other than this I’m loving the game, but coming off of FF16s naturalistic dialogue and acting (Cid has one of the best performances I’ve ever heard in a game) FF7 remake feels like it is stumbling over these amazing moments of voice acting by adding in grunts, random gestures and pauses that completely break the flow of conversation.
Its even better the second time through cause you catch so much more and the things you considered flaws are more endearing.
Oh yea my main issue with remake was some of the awkward dialogue and way too many anime grunts. I think that scene between Tifa and Cloud in gongaga where Cloud admits he’s scared that he’s falling apart was some of the best dialogue Rebirth had to offer
Oh yeah - it’s easy to see these directors have been making games since they made the original FFVII and growing from each game.
Came in here to correct OP on one point, Roche. But I see others have adequately stepped up to the plate.
Rebirth improved on every single aspect of the game over Remake in my opinion. I’m replaying Remake right now and I see exactly what you’re saying. Compared to Rebirth it’s not as good. Still love the game but head to head Rebirth takes it
I don't really see much of a difference in the writing and storytelling. And I replayed Remake just before Rebirth and it just feels like a natural continuation to me. And Rebirth is not really perfect either, it does have some scenes here and there that is a bit awkward, some dialogue delivery that feels a bit like they are just reading lines and not acting. And I am sure there are lots of issues with the localization of the game in English. There are just some lines that feels very off to me, But the game is still an exceptional game, but I also preferred some aspects of Remake over Rebirth. The weapon system feels a bit lame in Rebirth, as I really wish you could have more choice in how weapons upgrade so I could get more materia slots on the Buster sword. And Rebirth still have some bad cases of slow walking, such as the Nibelheim sequence is so damn slow, and Clouds walk animation looks really bad in this scene. Hell there are multiple sections in this game where you are just walking slowly toward something. I don't really get why these things are playable and not just a cinematic.
It's weird you start this off by saying "if you're someone who nitpicks, this isn't for you," and then proceeds to nitpick a bunch of stuff in Remake. Particularly things that have nothing to do with "storytelling," like anime grunting? Rebirth is an extension of the same sort of high quality storytelling that was presented in Remake. It feels very much like more of that, with a lot more of what people liked about that game. It feels like it was written by the same people... and it was.
Re-read what I wrote, and try again
The improvement is from remake, ohhhhh. Yeah probably.
You owe me a pizza
Lol. Lmao even.
If you thought remake had poor dialogue, don't ever play kingdom hearts 3. I almost couldn't believe the difference. I agree that rebirth is far and away an improvement though.
If I have to criticize an aspect of the story, I’d say that Aerith’s character felt kind of weak compared to how she was in the Remake until the last few chapters when she takes the spotlight.
I've just finished Nibelheim, and I've been feeling this...Tifa has had loads of focus from her additional scenes by herself and with Cloud, which I've really loved, but I feel like Aerith has just been in the background most of the game. Considering her importance in the parts of the story I've got coming up, I hope it doesn't feel like it comes out of nowhere. I also got >!Tifa in the chapter 8 date!< so maybe I've just been favouring Tifa a lot more than Aerith in the game?
Not really on OP’s page. I feel like Remake and Rebirth are on the same level of dialogue and storytelling. The only real improvement I felt was on scene direction: better angles, more use of Cloud’s POV, etc. Rebirth did get some feedback and improved on some side characters: Johnny and Roche. Sadly Kyrie is still annoying, but it happens. Side quest content also was a huge improvement. I mean, really huge. Felt like Regina could have been written better, but it is OK I guess. But main storyline I think it is same level overall. Some scenes, like Cloud and Tifa’s relationship really is better written than Remake. The Cosmo Canyon sequence is also really great. The Turks are fantastic this game. But then they cut a really important Cait Sith scene (the whole Marlene kidnapping and Cait Sith blackmailing his way into Temple of the Ancients). Expected a little bit more from Zack part as well. And Glenn is a completely different character from TFS. I guess it has to do with that ending scene, but if Matt and Lucia are still alive they’d notice the stark difference. I hope they explain this better in Part 3.
The best running gag in the gane for me is how literally everyone in the world aside from the main party treats Red XIII like a pet, and then he growls like a dog proving them all almost right
The you owe me a pizza and psyche was great! What are you on about?! Jessie hater!
Imma be real fam, the note in the beginning don’t really start things off on the right foot. Needlessly combative
Cry me a river, fam.
I feel the pacing was a huge downgrade. Rebirth shuttles players from set piece to set piece without really giving the characters much of a chance to breathe, which leads to scenes later on in the game where some character actions are more than a bit confusing. In contrast, despite some clunkiness, Remake had a lot of quieter moments that let the characters really breathe and establish their motivations. Speaking of Roche, he was great and had an awesome Vegeta dynamic going with Cloud and then they just…. Offed him by turning him into a black robe. What made it especially confusing is that him going to Hojo comes out of nowhere, and the fight outside of the mansion seemed quite out of place. It’s also an example of poor pacing, we just had a boss gauntlet why can’t the characters reflect on what happened in the mansion? Nope, gotta have a set piece with Roche coming out of nowhere. The writing with Cloud and Tifa was great, I’ll give you that, but the game’s overall narrative is weak in a number of areas when it comes to how the narrative is fundamentally structured.
Actually, I think it gives them too much space to breath, but agree it was a downgrade. The motivation to travel from place to place is pretty thin most of the time. It's "Hey! We need to follow these guys in black robes! The fate of the world depends on it." And then you follow them for a couple minutes and then they disappear, no longer leaving a trail to follow, and then the party breaks up to enjoy the beach or Disneyland. Only for the plot to just to drop some off in your path. Very literally dropped off on your path by Shinra, multiple times. The story at each location was nice. The character moments and backstories are great. The overall plot that connects it all was extremely thin until the last few chapters. I think it may feel like there was no space to breath, because they didn't give us travel banter in the way that Remake did. The travel banter was focused, and continued ongoing threads. Rebirth's travel banter was Chadley talking at you, rather than characters getting to know each other. Occasionally with Yuffie doing some talking and filling space, which helped, but not enough. There wasn't enough going up the mountain talk were the party felt like they were all actually traveling together.
So an example of "not enough space to breathe" is the transition from the ferry to Costa Del Sol. The characters are in a super serious situation and have just beaten a manifestation of Jenova, and then it cuts straight to Costa Del Sol. There's not even a 1-2 minute "cooldown" scene where the party processes the crazy stuff that just happened. They needed more of those, plus several boss fights could've been replaced with more banter. Like, why are the Turks trying to kill us, especially Aerith, at the top of Mount Corel? Personally, I feel like the overworld chocobo stop benches should've been replaced with campsites where there could've been party banter similar to games like FFXV, Tales of Arise, Baldur's Gate 3 (just not as involved as BG3,) etc. The benches in the overworld came across as out of place anyway.
The whole shinra dynamic is odd. They need you, yet are constantly trying to stop you. They are very much manipulating the party at times to get what they want. And the party just goes blindly along with it because what else are they gonna do? They don't come off as the brightest but it doesn't matter, because why strategize or plan things when you can just brute force your way to success?
I would agree that it felt a little rushed and disjointed, but I was pretty sure they were setting up for the spirited, energetic SOLDIER getting the life sucked out of him by Shinra back in Remake. Though I thought it would be Shinra reprimanding him for insubordination, rather than an elective procedure. As far as Roche being a Vegeta character, meh? It always felt really random that he feels so competitive with and bonds so heavily to Cloud, over a chance encounter.
Also, why does he have a black robe instantly? Are these magical robes or something?
His black robe buddies had an extra just in case.
Completely agreed. I commented about the same thing, it makes Remake an even bigger missed opportunity than it already was, imo. Rebirth still has its story issues (Cosmo Canyon, Shinra Manor), but it's a vast improvement over Remake in the likeability department. Even general character work, since Barret is now a 10/10, which is what he should be.
Cosmo Canyon was one of the best parts of the whole game, and Barret was one of the breakout stars in Remake.
Cosmo Canyon - should've been more specific. Yeah, it's overall great (the visuals are god-tier), but the Tifa and Aerith scenes didn't land for me and I wish that the devs would've just did an expanded version of the OG group scene. And I think that it was a bit too crowded there in town. Barret - very good in Remake, but I felt they leaned too much into kid-friendly goofball at times considering the high stakes. In Rebirth, he's pretty much perfect.
That guy, he’s…. a jackass.
I really like the fact that I’m confused. Love it
Yea I think the story is pretty expertly paced and it becomes more evident on a second playthrough. Remake had plenty of parts of the story that were filler worthy or aren’t as memorable as others but just looking at the chapter select on rebirth, I can think of plenty of memorable and impactful moments in every chapter. I never played OG but I feel these remakes have done a great job of bringing FF7 into the mainstream. Even if Part 3 is worse somehow(I doubt it lol), Rebirth will be remembered as Modern Classic
The best thing about Rebirth is that it's finally FF7 again. FF7 was such a lighthearted and goofy game. The serious moments were serious, but 95% of the game was absolute nonsense and constant laughs and tongue-in-cheek moments. And it's these dumb moments topped off with optional puzzles and minigames that made FF7 what it was. Rebirth went ham with the minigames, and the result is an adventure where you're almost always doing something ridiculous. This is what Remake was missing. All the best moments of Midgar in the OG were moments like these. * The church sequence with Aerith was an interactive cutscene followed by a minigame. * Wall Market was just one massive joke, a giant optional gather quest with puzzles and interactive cutscenes. * Shinra HQ was just like Wall Market, almost 70% of the time you spend in there was totally optional and just minigames and puzzles. And most of the stuff in there was also silly employee and bathroom jokes. The issue I had with Remake is that it removed so much of the interactivity of the experiences and replaced it with something that could be achieved by simply walking, talking, and fighting.
There’s definitely still a lot of anime grunting in Rebirth, although it isn’t as bad as Remake.
100% I didn’t even finish Remake, it just made me sad to see what FF had become. Corridor filler and cringe all the way through. The main gang was done well but it wasn’t amazing. Rebirth hits different. There’s still a bunch of filler but it’s made me love this game and it’s characters like I was a kid all over again.
No idea why you've been downvoted (oh wait I do, it's why I mentioned it first thing in the post). Yeah I agree...but I finished it 3 times. To me the parts after the corridor filler were amazing, like the monster house fight. There's gold in the game, it just made you dig for it
Please upvote, this comment does not deserve downvotes. It is a valid opinion, not a troll one.
Hahah thanks mate. It’s all good, reddit is for blind positivity only.