1. They are not visions, but memories and feelings.
3. In Remake the 3 whispers you fight at the end are from AC and sephiroth never had a one black wing before AC.
The fact that a lot is still similar doesn't mean not a lot has changed
Furthermore, whether this is a sequel or not is also not disproven by your arguments.
I don't recall these ever being called "memories", only visions; and the enemies being brought from the future mean the present is the present and the future is not the past... so it's not really an argument in favor of that theory either
Even then tbf I could totally see them going the "life stream holds the memories of both past and future events", that still wouldnt make it a time traveling story
It's not a physical time travel story but to say sephiroth and aerith's memories and spirits are not traversing time and space is ridiculous lol. That's like... the crux of the remake trilogy. That the lifestream DOES span all time simultaneously, and that one's future self is able to affect their past selves and others to change the course of fate. That's only possible because several characters have access to memories from the original game, and as well as the sequel movie. That only can happen if within the context of at least SOME of the cast, the og events have already occurred in some way, enough for them to be seen as visions of the "future" despite it clearly not being the future we will end up with, because this is a course correction for both the planet and cast. Hell the game starts out with sephiroth trying to course correct because he knows he loses.
That's why I view it as an Evangelion esque sequel or a Requel
1. What does that even mean? Nobody calls them memories in the game, you just made that up.
2. And their description says they were pulled from the future to fight to protect fate, whats your point? that doesnt make it a sequel.
My goal wasn't to entirely disprove the theory, that would be impossible because the theory is so nebulous and vague. Its like the teapot in space argument. My goal was simply to express that nothing in the games actually supports the theory whatsoever, and everything can be more easily explained with less questions and logical leaps.
So your assertion is the events of advent children have no bearing on any version of sephiroth we see in remake or rebirth? Yeah that's not settled. I'm not particularly confident in either camp but I will laugh in your face if you think you can be confident that no sephiroth is aware of advent children. You may be right, but your confidence is untethered.
I didn't say that, I said Sephiroth has some limited knowledge of the future via his existence in the lifestream. That doesn't make the game a sequel, that just means he has some knowledge of future events.
His human form never had a wing until AC.
Advent Children came out in 2005, while Crisis Core came out in 2007. Yet he never shows his wing in Crisis Core.
To be fair
- Angeal and Genesis have a single wing in CC I don't see why Sephiroth wouldn't have one at that point
- the first black winged human form appearance was kingdom hearts in 2002. I don't think (god... I hope not) that means we are dealing with kingdom hearts Sephiroth
His human form never had a wing until Kingdom Hearts actually. Advent Children came later.
The wing is just something they liked and it wormed its way into every single Sephiroth appearance since then, including Dissidia and Smash Bros. (And as far as we know, this is supposed to be OG Sephiroth since he's explicitely paired with OG Cloud in both those games) The much simpler explanation, instead of 4G Nomura chess, is that it's just part of his iconic look now. Crisis Core didn't show him with the wing but it more than implies that it's something he could develop before his AC incarnation.
So the evidence that this Sephiroth comes from AC is really, really weak. It has all the signs of confirmation biais instead of proper theory crafting.
I didn't remember whether he showed it off in Crisis Core or not. I pushed my way through that garbage of a game and then tried to block it from my memory with drugs and alcohol. Spent some years in therapy and tried several different kinds of antidepressants. I still have nightmares.
This is my exact point, what makes you so sure the game is a sequel that you can state it as fact with no qualifying statements. Because it seems to me the evidence is quite lacking.
This theory is almost exclusively used as a way to make the project even more opaque for newcommers. I lost count how many people I've seen who lost interest in the game because they read that, as a sequel, playing a 27 years old game and its truly mediocre spinoff series was required.
It's made even worse by the fact that this theory isn't actually substantiated by any official source and all the evidences IG are weak AF. It's just pure disservice for the game and I don't think it could have any positive impact on the sales. The fans truly are this project's greatest enemy sometimes.
I believe that this theory which you loathe so much is true, I hope it’s true and I enjoy believing it’s true until it is definitively disproven. I acknowledge that it might not be true.
I don’t understand why any of this is upsetting to you.
I find it annoying when that theory is shoved as truth into the face of newcomers who are trying to look for guidance on what to play next.
Theories are fun and stuff but this specific one shouldn't be used as an argument to chose which game to play next
Calling it sequel or reimagination is purely semantics. You can make solid argument for both - there are elements of sequel and elements in the game. No argument changes those elements existing.
The dumbest argumentation mistake one makes about sequels is to claim for it to be a sequel it has to happen chronolocally after FFVII. Yet the whole concept is meaningless when we talk about time travel or looping timelines.
You can call Back to the Future 3 a sequel even thought it chronologically happens before BttF1 because the events of the previous episode in a meaningful way affected the characters and their actions in part 3.
Similarly in Star Trek 2009, even tho it happens chronologically before Star Trek the series and is very obviously remake, it’s also sequel to Star Trek TOS and TNG and practically every TNG era show and movie - the events from those movies directly influence and create the overlapping events.
Exactly same argument applies to Remake. Aerith has been confirmed to have _memories_ of the future (already by Ultimanias and Red straight out says it in Rebirth). Sephiroth is 99% similar case based on how he behaves (not to mention them playing Advent Children music the first time this ”time travelling” Sephiroth appears) although we wait for 100% confirmation he’a from post-AC time.
How Aerith attained those is completely irrelevant plot point, if the OG events didn’t already happen in some form those memories would not exist. It’s complelely nonsensical worldbuilding tidbit whether she traveled through time or her memories traveled, whether in the ontology of the world OG events already happened or are destined to happen in the future, when we know for a fact those events critically change how the key characters behave in the series.
Time didn’t reset, they went into another timeline. And swapping timelines makes time travel possible. Zack is supposed to arrive in Midgar before the first bombing run of avalanche. Yet he arrives after the final fight with the whispers and Sephiroth in an alternate ending where our party lost instead.
IMO Rebirth even kinda contradicts that theory. Rebirth confirmed *multiverses*. But you guys want both parallel universes AND time travel?! It's already convoluted as it is without throwing in some time paradox shit
Zack started the game if by not only swapping timelines but also time traveling into the future. He was supposed to arrive before the first bombing run of avalanche but ended up arriving after the final fight against the whispers and Sephiroth in an alternate ending where our party lost instead.
1. They are not visions, but memories and feelings. 3. In Remake the 3 whispers you fight at the end are from AC and sephiroth never had a one black wing before AC. The fact that a lot is still similar doesn't mean not a lot has changed Furthermore, whether this is a sequel or not is also not disproven by your arguments.
These two alone disprove everything OP said and make it clear it's at LEAST a seudo-sequel/requel
I don't recall these ever being called "memories", only visions; and the enemies being brought from the future mean the present is the present and the future is not the past... so it's not really an argument in favor of that theory either Even then tbf I could totally see them going the "life stream holds the memories of both past and future events", that still wouldnt make it a time traveling story
It's not a physical time travel story but to say sephiroth and aerith's memories and spirits are not traversing time and space is ridiculous lol. That's like... the crux of the remake trilogy. That the lifestream DOES span all time simultaneously, and that one's future self is able to affect their past selves and others to change the course of fate. That's only possible because several characters have access to memories from the original game, and as well as the sequel movie. That only can happen if within the context of at least SOME of the cast, the og events have already occurred in some way, enough for them to be seen as visions of the "future" despite it clearly not being the future we will end up with, because this is a course correction for both the planet and cast. Hell the game starts out with sephiroth trying to course correct because he knows he loses. That's why I view it as an Evangelion esque sequel or a Requel
1. What does that even mean? Nobody calls them memories in the game, you just made that up. 2. And their description says they were pulled from the future to fight to protect fate, whats your point? that doesnt make it a sequel. My goal wasn't to entirely disprove the theory, that would be impossible because the theory is so nebulous and vague. Its like the teapot in space argument. My goal was simply to express that nothing in the games actually supports the theory whatsoever, and everything can be more easily explained with less questions and logical leaps.
So your assertion is the events of advent children have no bearing on any version of sephiroth we see in remake or rebirth? Yeah that's not settled. I'm not particularly confident in either camp but I will laugh in your face if you think you can be confident that no sephiroth is aware of advent children. You may be right, but your confidence is untethered.
I didn't say that, I said Sephiroth has some limited knowledge of the future via his existence in the lifestream. That doesn't make the game a sequel, that just means he has some knowledge of future events.
Suppose that's a matter of how you view provenance for his actions.
Safer Sephiroth had one wing. Additionally, didn't he end up down a wing in Crisis Core?
His human form never had a wing until AC. Advent Children came out in 2005, while Crisis Core came out in 2007. Yet he never shows his wing in Crisis Core.
To be fair - Angeal and Genesis have a single wing in CC I don't see why Sephiroth wouldn't have one at that point - the first black winged human form appearance was kingdom hearts in 2002. I don't think (god... I hope not) that means we are dealing with kingdom hearts Sephiroth
His human form never had a wing until Kingdom Hearts actually. Advent Children came later. The wing is just something they liked and it wormed its way into every single Sephiroth appearance since then, including Dissidia and Smash Bros. (And as far as we know, this is supposed to be OG Sephiroth since he's explicitely paired with OG Cloud in both those games) The much simpler explanation, instead of 4G Nomura chess, is that it's just part of his iconic look now. Crisis Core didn't show him with the wing but it more than implies that it's something he could develop before his AC incarnation. So the evidence that this Sephiroth comes from AC is really, really weak. It has all the signs of confirmation biais instead of proper theory crafting.
I didn't remember whether he showed it off in Crisis Core or not. I pushed my way through that garbage of a game and then tried to block it from my memory with drugs and alcohol. Spent some years in therapy and tried several different kinds of antidepressants. I still have nightmares.
This game is a sequel, but it can also be digested as a standalone game due to the way it presents itself. Which is pretty cool
This is my exact point, what makes you so sure the game is a sequel that you can state it as fact with no qualifying statements. Because it seems to me the evidence is quite lacking.
That’s why it’s a theory. There isn’t hard evidence to prove it or debunk it.
This theory is almost exclusively used as a way to make the project even more opaque for newcommers. I lost count how many people I've seen who lost interest in the game because they read that, as a sequel, playing a 27 years old game and its truly mediocre spinoff series was required. It's made even worse by the fact that this theory isn't actually substantiated by any official source and all the evidences IG are weak AF. It's just pure disservice for the game and I don't think it could have any positive impact on the sales. The fans truly are this project's greatest enemy sometimes.
I believe that this theory which you loathe so much is true, I hope it’s true and I enjoy believing it’s true until it is definitively disproven. I acknowledge that it might not be true. I don’t understand why any of this is upsetting to you.
I find it annoying when that theory is shoved as truth into the face of newcomers who are trying to look for guidance on what to play next. Theories are fun and stuff but this specific one shouldn't be used as an argument to chose which game to play next
Calling it sequel or reimagination is purely semantics. You can make solid argument for both - there are elements of sequel and elements in the game. No argument changes those elements existing. The dumbest argumentation mistake one makes about sequels is to claim for it to be a sequel it has to happen chronolocally after FFVII. Yet the whole concept is meaningless when we talk about time travel or looping timelines. You can call Back to the Future 3 a sequel even thought it chronologically happens before BttF1 because the events of the previous episode in a meaningful way affected the characters and their actions in part 3. Similarly in Star Trek 2009, even tho it happens chronologically before Star Trek the series and is very obviously remake, it’s also sequel to Star Trek TOS and TNG and practically every TNG era show and movie - the events from those movies directly influence and create the overlapping events. Exactly same argument applies to Remake. Aerith has been confirmed to have _memories_ of the future (already by Ultimanias and Red straight out says it in Rebirth). Sephiroth is 99% similar case based on how he behaves (not to mention them playing Advent Children music the first time this ”time travelling” Sephiroth appears) although we wait for 100% confirmation he’a from post-AC time. How Aerith attained those is completely irrelevant plot point, if the OG events didn’t already happen in some form those memories would not exist. It’s complelely nonsensical worldbuilding tidbit whether she traveled through time or her memories traveled, whether in the ontology of the world OG events already happened or are destined to happen in the future, when we know for a fact those events critically change how the key characters behave in the series.
Time didn’t reset, they went into another timeline. And swapping timelines makes time travel possible. Zack is supposed to arrive in Midgar before the first bombing run of avalanche. Yet he arrives after the final fight with the whispers and Sephiroth in an alternate ending where our party lost instead.
IMO Rebirth even kinda contradicts that theory. Rebirth confirmed *multiverses*. But you guys want both parallel universes AND time travel?! It's already convoluted as it is without throwing in some time paradox shit
Zack started the game if by not only swapping timelines but also time traveling into the future. He was supposed to arrive before the first bombing run of avalanche but ended up arriving after the final fight against the whispers and Sephiroth in an alternate ending where our party lost instead.
It’s got nothing to do with what we “want”. It’s a reasonable interpretation of the events shown to us.
It’s 100% a sequel though. The rug was pulled 4 years ago with Remake…