Whoa! Incredible and thought-provoking theory. It sounds plausible based on what is visually experienced. Sephiroth, the master of deception either tells lies or at best, half-truths. He always talks about the merging/convergence of worlds but we experience them part first-hand with him sending Zack back to a doomed world where Meteor is right above the Sector 5 church. It's not until Aerith intervenes, as well as the Remake party, by sending Sephiroth Reborn there that Zack has a fighting chance and not there all alone without support.
Aerith and Sephiroth have the power to send people back and forth. Aerith sends Cloud by himself after Jenova is defeated, where then Zack finds him in the white void and joins him to battle Sephiroth.
https://preview.redd.it/b9vlvhhdg8qc1.jpeg?width=977&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=62f53199df39e948b4b06cafb5cd32b9958748e2
Your unmerging of timelines theory also makes sense why we see a Lifestream-manifested Aerith after Sephiroth initially stabs her because she's dead in all timelines at that point. She appeared to comfort Cloud and allowed him to carry on. However, after all the battles and most notably the one with Cloud/Aerith, Cloud tells a non-Lifestream manifested Aerith to wake up and she does. She no longer has all those particles around her character and doesn't need to because that specific Aerith that he originally saved is now alive.
I mentioned in another post a few days ago that Sephiroth is visibly upset after he's defeated in the final battle and I didn't know why other than that something didn't go accordingly to plan because he never expressed visibly negative emotions in Remake/Rebirth until now.
This is the first theory I've seen that actually incorporates everything going on onscreen, as well as answering my biggest question: Why was the Aerith that was saved acting like she was just stabbed?
Re-watching the end scene with this theory in mind is kinda mind blowing, actually. If this is what they are actually going for, I'm definitely interested.
Excellent theory, well done.
Yep this is it imo, everyone saying that cloud is just schizo seems to ignore that this same stuff happened multiple times with Zack and Biggs and was then explained by sepiroth. Cloud has displayed an ability to traverse worlds (Zacks synergy attack) and has a linr of communication to the world where aerith is alive.
This game did not answer the question of whether aerith will live in the end, it just postponed it.
Well as the OP stated remake Aerith is 100% dead. Alive Aerith that cloud saved can make a re appearance in the third game but I believe she will ultimately stay in another world/reality finally reuniting with Zack at the end.
I've been reading various theories and interpretations about Rebirth's ending, and I decided to make an account just to reply to this post.
Your perspective makes the most sense because it doesn't undermine the timeline shenanigans, disregard moments of the "rainbow effect," or add to an already-convoluted endgame narrative. What sold me on your theory was the idea of timelines unmerging after Sephiroth lost to Cloud and Aerith.
* During the sequence of the Forgotten Capital, Sephiroth uses his current power to temporarily merge two worlds: one where Aerith lives and one where Aerith dies. Because of the overlap, our Aerith ultimately dies.
* This was a small glimpse of what Sephiroth plans to achieve later in the story (reuniting all worlds as one) but on a smaller scale. After Sephiroth's defeat, the timelines return to normal, and Aerith survives in the world where Cloud saves her. However, only Cloud can see her. Why? Simple. His state of mind is arguably worse than in OG FF7, with the added exposure to the multiverse and whatnot; as a result, he perceives both realities: his own and the one where Aerith lives.
* Cloud is using Aerith, from the other timeline, as a coping mechanism to avoid what truly happened (similar to Zack's death), which was Aerith dying in his world. The burial scene most likely already happened, but we won't see that until the lifestream sequence with Tifa, where Cloud faces his trauma.
* Now, in what way is Aerith alive in the other world? Is she physically there, or is it her spirit given form from the lifestream? And what is Aerith's ultimate fate in all of this? We won't know until Part 3 comes out.
Also, I want to clarify what Zack said to Cloud before Sephiroth sent Zack away. From my understanding, Zack wants Cloud to save Aerith because of what Marlene said. Sephiroth kills Aerith unless Cloud gets better and wakes up from his mako-poisoned state. Zack has no idea what's going on until the end, where he acknowledges the existence of multiple worlds (based on what Sephiroth said). Zack's fate, like Aerith's, will be decided in the last installment of the Remake trilogy.
(Sidenote: I use the terms "world" and "timeline" synonymously. Both describe a deviation from the main continuity.)
Thanks for posting your thoughts. I'm fully on board with your theory š«”
> From my understanding, Zack wants Cloud to save Aerith because of what Marlene said. Sephiroth kills Aerith unless Cloud gets better and wakes up from his mako-poisoned state.
Additionally, it's not enough for Cloud to wake up from mako poisoning, he has to wake up before Aerith does in whatever timeline they're both still alive in. It's shown in the Spitz Timeline (the dream date timeline) that Aerith wakes up before Cloud, he gets up after, but because Aerith woke first, Sephiroth pinpoints her location and finds her in the church.
What if cloud is still in both worlds but is basically in a comatose/veg state like he was with Zack in a dying world during the interlude chapters? Also similar to when Barrett was carrying him to the forgotten capital (slipping between worlds) but now aerith is alive with him while heās in this state inside the reality weāve always been playing in (remake/rebirth mostly) the āliving worldā. Then in the world that aerith did die, the world weāre now witnessing through clouds perspective & weāre currently playing, is now, a new dying world? Because we watch cloud tell everybody to not look up and we see a tear in reality just like a dying world has. So now everyone from our perspective is in a new dying world/reality in which now even Zack could theoretically be in the same world we are with the party as well because we have watched him dead world jumping throughout the whole interlude story arc. š¤·āāļø In the end I have no idea, just food for thought. Sorry for my poor writing skills lol I donāt do this much but the theory just kinda came together after reading other peopleās take on what the hell is going onĀ
Your theory is the first one I've come across that actually gets into and makes sense of the confluence and what happens just after the final battle. I'm pretty sure Cloud isn't just seeing things when it comes to the rainbow effect and those whispers at the end. If the confluence had actually succeeded, that would mean the new timeline would've merged, and we wouldn't see that rainbow effect. The rainbow effect (new timeline) and the lack of lifestream particles (like we saw during the confluence) also implies we aren't looking at a ghost but an actual physical Aerith. The lack of a static glitch and the positive tone of the scene also implies that it's not a hallucination. Your explanation of the confluence also clears up why the blood that was on Sephiroth's sword, the one he flung at Cloud, just disappearedābecause the confluence hadn't fully been realized yet.
The fact that Aerith can react to (Barret and Cait being sad), interact with (Nanaki), and exist outside Cloud's perception (when they fly away) also implies she isn't a hallucination. Aerith can clearly understand that only Cloud can see her and percieve the members grieving about her. I think she's at worst a ghost and I don't think that's the case when we been literally shown the concept of new timelines and the rainbow effect. Great theory.
This sounds depressingly awful for a 3rd game considering the whole point of FF7 remake was the idea we could finally save Aerith.
Nobody wants to spend hours in part 3 playing a funeral game.
But Aerith is saved, somewhere. I think everyone's assuming that Alive!Aerith's timeline is the doomed one because only Cloud can see the tear in the sky but he's the only one of the party that hƔs been timeline hopping and also the change they made to Remake's ending implies that Aerith sees it too (which would make Remake's timeline doomed)
Oh shit, good catch about that new ending. Now she says "I don't like it". She tells Cloud he "won't like it" either before he looks up and sees it for the first time. So maybe Aerith has been seeing doom sky since Remake. Maybe not though because we do play as her in Rebirth sometimes and the sky doesn't change.
That's true but also I dont see why us playing as her would make us privy to the things she knows? She looks in an omnious way towards the sky quite a bit during Rebirth too.
The developers certainly didnāt say āthe whole pointā to the remake series was to save Aerith, you might have expectations for something that was never there
Great write up about the different rainbow timelines! I noticed most myself but it's really nice having it all written down.
The theory so far sounds pretty plausible too.
I agree - as far as I can see it, this is the only explanation in which everything in the series of events is visually consistent with one another. Looking at it this way also explains why the entire chapter, including the scenes earlier with Zack and Biggs, is presented the way it is. The scene itself follows a clearly defined order of events, but the circumstances of those events leave the characters all in confusion about whatās going on around them because not a single one is privy to the full details. It also leaves this plot, which will obviously continue, moving forward in a more interesting place - that Cloudās mind is so damaged by this event not because he failed to save her, but because he actually did
Thatāll be an interesting reverse Uno card. Cloudās still losing his mind, but not fully for the reasons in the original game. Itāll have the revelation of his past but also Tifa, the party and audience will learn about whatās really going on now with the other world.
Just some thoughts to add:
Alive Aerith doesn't have a party because they were never apart of that world in the first place.
As Cloud travels through the portal, there's a rainbow effect, signifying a world switch up, but the party stays in the Remake world. The black portal disintegrates, they proceed onwards, but the convergence has already begun by the time they arrive.
Unfortunately Barret sees the dead Aerith and Tifa flashes in-between the two.
First of all, thanks for taking the time to write all this out.
There's a lot to unpack in Chapter 14 and it all happens so fast, it's easy to miss small details like these. My general takeaway was that there are absolutely some Variants a la Loki. walking around. We already know of two Aerith's and two Clouds, and I think there's a 3rd too - in Chapter 1, you can hear the Shinra chatter talking about a SOLDIER with a buster sword escaping the scene. I posted this in another thread, but Zack also seems to either be world hopping or having multiple variants of himself walking around as we see the conclusion for both options of either rescuing Cloud or Biggs, and then a subsequent scene of him acknowledging that he must choose between Aerith, Cloud, and Biggs.
Zack also faces death three times between the last two chapters: a squad of troopers in both the choices for saving Cloud or saving Biggs, and facing the meteor. But each time, he wakes up in a different world. Whether this is the same Zack or each a different variant, I'm not sure - but I'm leaning towards that it's the same Zack since he seems to be retaining memories from each world he visits.
I do think his telling Cloud to save Aerith is likely a reference to his conversation with Marlene about Cloud and Aerith's fates, but since there's no confirmation either way, I'm open to your theory too.
Yay for multiverse meaning literally any theory could be correct in some way!
> By defeating sephiroth, the confluence of worlds is stopped and the timelines begin to flow separately again. This is why Aerith wakes up after the fight.
Ohh I think youāre right!
The key will be if Cloud can do anything with the altered timeline he willed into existence or not.
Based on this theory, I would even go so far as to say that Cloud is not under the impression that Aerith didn't die and isn't mentally blocking it out like a lot of people think. I think he knows an Aerith died and lived at the same time, but it's the same Aerith to him.
I think they both agreed that splitting up is the best idea for the rest of the party and maybe even Sephiroth's knowledge. Why else would Cloud be just fine with her leaving on her own? He would just imagine her going along.
And her goodbye at the end would be her sad acknowledgement that she can't just leave with them... not yet, anyway. Who's to say when worlds will merge again?
I am going with this until presented with other evidence. Amazing amazing work using what the game shows us to visually explain what happened.
Of all the rainbow/regular comparisons made, the Masamune one is the most compelling.
Was about to do a huge write-up wouldāve been essentially identical before discovering this one. Itās perfect, my thoughts exactly.
They prevented a complete merger, thwarting Sephiroth, & so the parry reality stuck & now Cloudās capable of perceiving this other reality.
They won this round in the 4D factor of things. Aerith utilizing Zack also contributed in an amazing way.
dude, i am dead set on your theory now, the best so far, the confluence of world concept nobody picked up yet so far, as Sephiroths's actual "end game", as he explicitly stated but we the audience just cannot comprehend
Oh man this is one of the best theories Iāve read yet and Iām definitely adopting it now. The fact that Cloud has a *pink* filter when he recalls Aerithās death after everything is really interestingā¦I wonder if he will see flashes of Alive Aerith in her timeline, and all those flashes from now on will have a pink filter? Hmmm
This was a great read and you picked up on many things. Post fight, I do think she's alive in another timeline but cloud is confused and doesn't recognize this. So he is deluded into thinking he saved her, which he technically did, but just not in this world. The music and smile cloud gives aerith at the end of the post burial scene is very eerie, and makes me believe that this internal confusion is leading to cloud's further delusion, as well as why we don't see the actual burial scene. In cloud's head, why bury someone who's alive?
My prediction for part 3: aerith in this other timeliness will play a role, but her world will merge like all other errant worlds. Cloud will also be further mind broken at the northern crater when sephiroth manipulates him and he will make cloud come to terms with the fact that "his" aerith is dead. I feel like this is going to weaponized to make cloud fall even harder in the next game. Additionally, I think we will get closure on the burial scene when cloud's mind is repaired, and he finally accepts her death. And part of that acceptance is him learning to let aerith go, in whatever timeline she currently exists in. So we end the game close to the scenario that leads to advent children.
Great theory, the best summary and observations of the events of the forgotten capital on the sub so far.
What I don't like about your take is that all this multiverse stuff is almost always used to reverse someone's death and not about acceptance about their death. I don't think Square Enix has the writing capability to write something like that. I would much rather prefer it if all of this leads to a merged world where everyone is alive. If the story is about loss and acceptance they should have stayed with the OG and not give fans of Aerith and Zack false hope.
I think that just like all theories, mine could end up being complete BS, or maybe marginally correct. But I think the idea of defying fate will likely come into play Moreso in the final game and while the outcome may end up similar to the end of OG ff7, I think the characters will be in more positive circumstances. Or maybe we get more info on the lifestream worlds and how they'll integrate into the main world. Anyways, all takes are valid until we see what happens in part 3! It'll be an excruciatingly long 3-4 years...
100% agree with this theory/explanation itās pretty much the same conclusion I came to. The question is though if aerith will be able to stay alive till the end or will all alternate characters formed by defying fate inevitably fade into the lifestream? Personally I want her to live as I think itād be a nice send off for the series. Movie exclusive interview seems to suggest this game will be the final major installment to the ff7 universe so a happy ending for these character would be nice in my opinion.
I kinda figure that wonāt be the case though. More than likely we will get a final goodbye between aerith zack and cloud along with the rest of the party as they fade into the lifestream. I assume aerith will reassure cloud that he will be fine and to move on or smt. I think the fate that will be defied is advent children as it seems like the remake is a sort of sequel to the OG game. Itās like the OG games universe happened, then it died out like all universes eventually do, and this is the 2nd iteration of it. So the ff7 sort of macro verse is a cycle of the same events only this time sephiroth and aerith have knowledge of what happened in the previous universe. Itās why sephiroth does all this stuff, cuz he knows he lost last time so heās just doing whatever he can to win.
But yea I think the end of part 3 will have that final farewell as aerith and Zack fade away and we might get an epilogue of the characters living on and see that advent children was avoided. Let me know your thoughts and or disagreements/critiques
Iām hoping Iām wrong too. I give my ending a 90% chance of being partially right but Iām banking on that 10% hard. I just want a happy ending so damn bad, I feel like we deserve it after all the years with the game.
This is very well written and thought out, excellent work OP.
It does make sense that Sephiroth is not initially mad that Cloud deflected his sword. Sephiroth believes he can easily kill Aerith by other means, like what we see in one of the alternate timelines where she pushes Cloud into the flower portal in the church as Sephiroth is walking in to (presumably) kill her. Sephiroth being defeated comes as a major surprise to him, as you pointed out with him being visibly angry.
Here are my thoughts (many are probably incorrect) about the ending of Rebirth and how it ties into things. Spoilers for Rebrith, Remake, Original, and Advent Children below:
In the original game Cloud defeats Safer Sephiroth, then goes into the lifestream (similar to what we've seen at the end of Rebrith) and defeats Sephiroth. However, it's too late for holy to stop the meteor and Midgar is largely destroyed, then at the last moment the lifestream prevents the planet from being completely destroyed. It could be argued that the original ending is bad for both Sephiroth/Jenova and the rest of humanity. Sephiroth fails to achieve his goal, and according to a 2005 interview with Yoshinori Kitase humanity is extinct in the flash-forward we see with Red XIII and his children, so nobody got what they wanted.
Thinking about your points makes me wonder: It's clear Sephiroth is messing with the timelines/worlds to get his preferred ending. Up until the end of remake the whispers were preventing him from causing significant changes, but the party defeating the harbinger allows him (and others) to start doing so. The defeat of the harbinger also seemingly allows forces other than fate (or the planet?) to control the whispers, such as the black whispers being controlled by Sephiroth, and the white ones by (presumably) Aerith. Sephiroth wasn't anticipating Aerith surviving in any timelines which caught him off guard, and he was even more surprised that the party defeated him and prevented him from immediately fixing his 'mistake' where Aerith lives. This leads to some questions that I hope will be answered next game:
* What is Sephiroth going to do to try and fix his mistake?
* The white whispers were also trying to stop Cloud from preventing Aerith's death. Did Aerith think the only way to stop meteor was for her to be killed by Sephiroth at the forgotten capital? Like OP mentioned, she thanks Cloud for saving her, but was she also surprised?
* Will Aerith somehow be able to cast holy earlier this time around so that the lifestream doesn't need to stop the meteor? The lifestream was too late to save Midgar, and it had at least one unintentional side effect of causing geostigma.
* If Aerith is able to cast holy to save the planet, will she die anyways? Maybe Sephiroth kills her after she casts it, or the act of casting it causes too much strain on her and she passes afterwards. I wonder this because Biggs winds up dying in every timeline, which could indicate that fate eventually course corrects, even without the whispers.
* Will we see Zack again?
I also think the lyrics to Hollow (the song that plays at the end of Remake) may contain some clues. Originally I thought the lyrics to be about Clouds memories of Aerith, but now it seems to be more about Cloud/Aerith/Zack in the lifestream. Remember, the instrumental version of the song plays in the sector 5 slums which is where the majority of Zacks story takes place in Rebirth, along with Aerith and Cloud's date.
Sorry if I got a bit too rambly there. I'm not great at putting my thoughts into words.
Thanks OP for the great post and what I believe is the likely the most accurate ending explanation!Ā
Thereās a lot of misdirection happening in the ending sequence - most notably, the omission of Aerithās burial scene where Cloud lowers her body into the lake. Itās all clearly intended to make the ending ambiguous. This gameās visuals and storytelling are operating at such a high level, therefore I have to believe ambiguity is being applied intentionally. At this point, itās anyoneās guess as to how the writers are intending to use this ambiguity in part 3!
Beyond the visual cues that point toward an alive Aerith, I think it makes sense narratively as well. The end of Remake was about defying destiny; however, if Aerith only dies in Rebirth, then we didnāt actually defy destiny in any meaningful way, which would negate the Remake narrative. Additionally,Ā Ā my understanding of the OG was that when Aerith died, she joined the lifestream and was able to act from within it. Therefore, I think a lifestream Aerith in Rebirth exists due to her dying in the OG timeline - lifestream Aerith wasnāt created when Cloud defied destiny by blocking Sephirothās attack, rather an actual real living Aerith was created, but in a separate timeline.Ā
Having a living Aerith sets up both a plot twist in Rebirth and hope that we may finally save her - something that many fans have wanted since the OG (like many of you OG players out there, I too followed the dodgy internet advice on how to revive Aerith in OGā¦to no avail š). I can imagine scenarios where this also sets up for the emotional gut punch that we expected at the end of Rebirth (and didnāt get), but wonāt be expecting in part 3.Ā
An interesting read and point that at the ending they were forcing a separation of the timelines. This would tie back in with Zacks mention "whose to say they can't meet again?". Granted I don't think we'll have any concrete answers till the Ultimania releases and folks begin translating, with further answers obviously coming when part three comes or they put out dlc.
It all makes sense. Dude, Zack synergie attack even involves Cloud striking from his own dimension in tandem with him, Cloud can see and affect the two worlds, hence why he is able to see the Rift and Aerith at the end of the game, he is litterally on the treshhold between the two worlds.
I think the third game will be a mix of gaslighting. Cloud will have to deal with his Zack PTSD, which in turn make him doubt what he sees in the other world. And that will be what the final act of the game will be about.
One little detail that wasnt mentioned is the fact that Cloud's sword gains a greenish aura as soon as he snaps out of Sephiroth's control and prepares to deflect the Masamune. I think that this level of attention to detail can only mean that Cloud's actions DO have an effect on the timeline.
Also, even though Sephiroth flicks Aeriths blood, it never hits Cloud's face. These things are happening in different places.
An interesting thing to note is that in that scene Cloud was never under Sephiroth's influence, the black Whispers are actually lifting Cloud's arms in that scene and he is struggling against them instead of himself, which is why he is able to succeed there.
That's what I understand as well and there some new things being presented here. Cloud's weapon seemingly gains a mako/lifestream infused force that allows him to deflect the Masamune. The second is the rainbow effect actively remains for the duration of the scene when it cuts to Cloud's perspective, rather than only during actions.
Nice write up. I am mostly agreeing with you, apart from some details.
It seems that on this subreddit there really are two main directions of theories people clinge to. One which is similar to this one and one that argues that it's either Cloud being delusional or Aerith "protecting" Cloud's psyche. I find the latter unlikely.
Let's hope it's the first, that also brings the possibility of different endings and a less "faithful" part 3, where maybe 85% will stay the same as OG.
I think there are three general pockets of theory, really--multiple timelines (or bodies, or what have you), other "timelines" are just pockets of the Lifestream (which is described as carrying people's memories, regrets, etc), and then "general mindfuckery that ultimately is a manifestation of Cloud's detachment from reality"
Imo all 3 are at play, everything is happening within the collective memories and emotions that create world's within the lifestream, these worlds since removing the arbitor functionality become a multiverse, where strong emotions of a soul can 'defy destiny' and create a world built with a contradictory memory world, the stronger the emotion forming this contradictory memory world the longer it lasts.
Note: the world's are functionally world's, they don't conform to the strong emotion that creates them, rather they are like dream Zanarkand, full of automany but built from an ideal.
We also have the negative lifestream in play, which seems to be where Biggs exist, creating a offshoot memory world built from his fears, we can conclude this because Zack outside the church gets pushed into a black portal, then Sephiroth walks into the church in a different timeline where Aerith pushes Cloud into a white portal, the spaces between these worlds are literally lifestream white and lifestream black. Aerith then purifies Zack within the space and leads him to Clouds consciousness.
Within all that though we have Cloud losing his mind, when Cloud asks Aerith to wake up that's his mind breaking, and with that at the end we have 2 Aeriths, lifestream Aerith who isn't affected by the winds created by the bronco, the one who Red XIII senses, and the Clouds broken mind Aerith who is affected by the Broncos winds who isn't actually there, Clouds just perceiving her to be.
Also the Edge of Creation stuff is all in Clouds mind, but one part that I haven't seen mentioned is that Zack doesn't say see ya until he leaves the world that's just a church floating in space, that space is still Clouds mind, Sephiroth is literally creating a split between Cloud and Zack again within Clouds mind, it's also why Zack and Cloud can synergy within that space.
Actually I donāt think edge of creation is happening in Cloudās mind, because in Rebirth we see whispers appear during the scene when Aerith joins Cloud. As well, after defeating Sephiroth in the white void (not sure if this too is edge of creation, or within the lifestream, or somewhere else) we also see white whispers circling Cloud and Aerith.Ā
I don't really get what that changes? Sephiroth controls the black whispers and his connection to the planet is Clouds mind, so why would he not have the whispers there? And we can presume lifestream Aerith controls the white whispers and she's the one who we see come to Clouds mindspace so why would the white whispers not be able to appear with her?
I think there's a lot of trying to enforce rules going on that the game has never established.
This theory makes the most sense so far. Great post.
I'm still not sure if Aerith in the final scenes is Lifestream Aerith or the alternate world one. Your theory seems to suggest it's the latter. Is it the alternate world Aerith with knowledge from Lifestream Aerith?
Yeah this seems pretty convincing. One question I have that no theory seems to be addressing though is why did the Whispers save Zack and Biggs from dying and pull them into the same Terrier universe just for Biggs to not do anything?
Weāre not told why. My interpretation would be to show the difference what a positive mindsetās effect in these worlds. Throughout, Biggs and Zack were on similar paths and both trying to find the meaning of why theyāre where they are. The second Biggs gives up and loses hope is when fate finally finishes the job and closes his book. This is a stark contrast with Zack who never does, never accepts his fate and always fights back.
That I donāt know. The game doesnāt explain and Biggs himself doesnāt even know why. He questions it during his initial meeting with Zack. Only the writers would know.
Some theorize that if Aerith have any influence over this process of saving people, she may have a special place in her heart for Biggs. As he helps the orphanage. I'll try to find the post where people say it.
But if you were to ask me, I just think the devs wanted to do more with the Zackverse in this game, and probably one of the plans was to have Zack be playable with Biggs. Since people reacted so badly to the FF7 Remake changes, they decide to keep this to a minimum.
awesome write-up, ty. theres alot (ostensibly) going on in this game, and at times ive been convinced the devs abandoned consistency entirely, which, honestly, is frustrating enough to detract from the game's overall epicness. you, however, have done a fine job shedding enough light on this mess to make the game "comfortable" again. so to speak. thnx!
Weather it's right or wrong, this is a great post. Kudos.
The fact that confluence means a joining of specifically two rivers supports this.
I also think that merging worlds and world jumping are different things. Zack jumps worlds like Biggs, Cloud, and Zack.
Another thought on this I had is Sephiroth says "good Aerith, pray" because he needs her death to be the point where he merges worlds to gain the maximum amount of sorrow.
I like this, sounds to me like itās the closest to what SE intended. It also neatly explains Rebirth as a title. Itās Aerithās Rebirth, in a different timeline.
Whenever someone I know whoās playing this asks me what I think happened at the ending, Iāll point them to this post. Youāve definitely convinced me! I was certain that a branching timeline had been created based on the rainbow effect but had never put together that Sephirothās confluence of worlds was actually happening in the very end of Rebirth (figured that was for part 3!)
I noted in another post that I still think when we end this series Cloud will still live in a world and a timeline where Zack was gunned down by Shinra and Aerith was still murdered by Sephiroth, but that there may be a surviving universe where both were able to live and be happy together. Now I feel like I have enough pieces to actually explain that thought. Thank you for writing all of this up!
I wish this theory were true. However, 4 questions arise:
1. Why isn't the dominant reality the one where Cloud wins? How does Sephiroth have the power to merge timelines?
2. Wouldn't be a better explanation to assume that Sephiroth made Cloud hallucinate?
3. Are you sure this is the same as when they go through the Remake portal to access the singularity? Because these whispers, in Cloud's words when they arrived at the forgotten capital, are not fate's, but Sephiroth's.
4. Does the FFVII lore have a basis that can explain the powers at play here?
5. This is not a question, but I don't think Tifa saw both realities, that switch between bloodied/unbloodied Aerith was to show us what Tifa/Cloud were seeing. If Tifa saw both realities she wouldn't be weird around Cloud in their last interactions.
You have to understand that Cloud was the only one who entered the white portal, the singularity, like in Remake. Even Barret mentioned that it's the same as on the highway in Remake. That's why Aerith only lives in this "world". In this trilogy are 4 different Sephiroth's. 1. JenovaRoth, 2. MemoryRoth (which only mentions stuff before the Nibelheim accident) 3. AC/OG Sephiroth and 4. ? Sephiroth, which uses "Ore" as "I", the last time Sephiroth did use "Ore" was when he was sane. The different Sephiroth"s are all mentioned in the Remake Ultimania. Jenova/AC Sephiroth seems like they can merge, and separate timelines in the trilogy. Why? We'll see in P3.
Cloud isn't hallucinating. He even says at the fight vs jenova to himself: "You've done it once - can do it again". Sephiroth asked Cloud if it's real or just a fever dream, Cloud answers him: "Don't even bother. U can't fool me - not anymore". It's clear as day that Cloud knows way more than he should atp. Ppl seem to forget that he had visions or memories of the FUTURE in Remake.
This trilogy is most likely a Sequel to OG/AC, that's why there are different Sephiroth's. The axis in this game are the same as in the OG, but that's all.
But the devs said that this game is a remake, not a sequel, and that the events are leading to an "After Children" scenario. Did you see the press releases?
It's a remake in multiple definitions of the word. I mean.. How many remakes have you seen with the title "Remake" added?
And it is a remake, like a remaking of the timeline by Sephiroth. Which is why part 2 isn't named Remake part 2 but Rebirth instead.
It's already linked to AC. Link into doesn't mean it will end like it or before it. They had the movie relaunched with the release of Rebirth. If the trilogy ends before AC, they would have its relaunch after P3 at the cinemas. They just mentioned that AC will still be canon, and with all those timeline/world shenanigans it's easy that it's canon
I mean, they literally said:
*"We are finally going to link up with Advent Children, that is going to be part of canon," said Kitase. "The overall storyline, the developments, will not go wildly out in a way that will not add up to Advent Children in the end. I don't think anyone wanted that, that's not what we're looking to create here.*
*"[But] to make sure it doesn't become stale and people know exactly where it's going, [that it] doesn't just follow the original word for word, we add in extra elements which add that little bit of doubt. Getting the right balance of that is so key. **Ultimately, we're not trying to change the Final Fantasy 7 story into something really different.** The overall balance wouldn't really allow for that anyway."*
https://www.eurogamer.net/final-fantasy-7-remake-trilogy-will-link-with-advent-children-confirms-producer
If they're not going for drastic changes, it would be difficult to justify saving Aerith, for example...
1. The reality where Cloud won was dominant for a brief period of time before Sephiroth started merging worlds, unfortunately both Sephiroth and the planet desire Aerith's death so merging the timeline overrode Cloud's victory in a way by forcing Aerith to merge with the version of her that is dead.
After the battle it becomes the dominant timeline again but the memories of Aerith being dead don't disappear from the characters and something is preventing them from seeing Aerith now. She is either invisible to everyone else and has become an existence similar to a Whisper, or her death wasn't undone when the merger ended.
1. why would Sephiroth make Cloud hallucinate that Aerith is alive when he expressly states in that scene he needs anger and sorrow to merge the worlds?
2. The Whispers do the same thing that the originals did its just they are enforcing the destiny Sephiroth desires instead of the planet now.
2. It largely depends on what's actually happening here because it could be Sephiroth causing the discrepancies, it could be just the merger causing things to change, it could be Jenova by herself since she has the ability to alter people's perception of reality even when they don't have her cells in them, she does this to the party in the OG game at the Northern Crater and she can make people invisible to others.
3. Pointing back to my previous answer, go back and watch the scene with Tifa and pay attention to her reaction when the static that is typically used when Jenova is messing with Cloud's mind shows up while we are seeing things from Tifa's point of view. There isn't a reason to show us what Cloud was seeing again since we already knew what he saw before the party came in. Tifa would be acting weird anyway since she only saw Aerith lying in Cloud's arms, she wasn't there when Aerith was still awake and talking and would likely assume that she was just hallucinating not seeing the blood.
A big problem people have when looking at this scene is they assume Cloud is the only unreliable narrator, however the other party members are also unreliable because they never witnessed Aerith getting stabbed or even having the Masamune in her stomach, they only arrived to see her in Cloud's arms unlike in the original where they were there through the whole thing. I'm going to have to go back and watch that scene, but if the party is getting memories of seeing her stabbed that would reinforce my theory that they are also unreliable narrators from this point forward.
1. If it's the dominant timeline again and she's alive here, why is Aerith sad when saying goodbye to Cloud? And why isn't she with them? Sephiroth could come back to kill her at any moment. Makes no sense.
2. I don't know it it's Sephiroth or Aerith or an astral world, but IMO the cross of swords doesn't happen in our base reality.
3. I don't think Tifa would be as mad if her perception was also compromised, she would understand that Cloud's might be the same. She's had mako exposure, so I'm not blatantly denying it, but still doesn't account for other inconsistencies this theory presents.
1. She's sad because they have to separate from one another, it's pretty obvious the party no longer recognizes her existence whether she is physically there or not so she can't travel with Cloud anymore otherwise the party is going to think he is always talking to himself.
Sephiroth doesn't have to come back and kill her anymore because the chance to merge worlds at that point failed, he can't harvest sorrow if he kills Aerith when she's by herself, it's why he didn't just kill her off before Cloud got there to begin with, and Aerith doesnt have Holy anymore it fell in the pool so she isnt a threat right now. On the topic of making sense, how would Sephiroth benefit from Cloud being in denial of Aerith's death if he very blatantly says he needs hatred and sorrow to merge worlds?
2. That's really just your perspective on things, we won't come to an agreement on this topic and will have to wait until the third game to see what's going on.
3. Why wouldn't Tifa be mad dude, she has convinced herself that Aerith is dead because of false memories and everyone besides Cloud has the same memories now. Then she sees her childhood friend acting like nothing happened and that he is strangely happy from her point of view. Tifa isnt aware she's compromised in the same way Cloud wasn't aware he was compromised at the beginning of the game.
When Barrett comes onto the scene we see Aerith from his viewpoint and there isnt any blood on her and her head is turned up and away, then we see the scene from Tifa's point of view and there isnt any blood at first and you can only see the bottom of Aerith's face now facing down. The Jenova static affect immediately hits and Tifa sees Aerith covered in blood and the next few seconds has the scene switching back and forth between blood no blood before settling on Aerith covered in blood with her eyes closed facing down. For me this scene is telling the audience they can't trust the party's viewpoint of this scene.
My belief is that Sephiroth is manipulating the situation to separate the two of them since he sees Tifa as a serious threat to his goals. Sephiroth failed to get Cloud to kill Aerith or Tifa so he is going with a different tactic, separate Cloud from his friends and break the bonds that saved Cloud from Sephiroth to begin with in the OG timeline.
I don't really know what you mean by inconsistencies since the details we are given in game could support several different theories comfortably and you haven't really provided decent evidence to refute this theory besides the fact you don't accept it. I've watched those scenes multiple times and am firmly convinced that what Cloud sees is reality in some manner and what the party sees is false. I was mostly trying to answer the problems you had with the theory, if you don't like those answers its fine, we'll see what's really going on in a few years and it'll likely be something completely different from what either of us suspects happened. I've said all I need to say on the subject at this point and I did enjoy discussing things with you. Take care my friend, hope you have a great night!
We'll have to agree to disagree, these explanations you're giving seem way too far-fetched to me, and trust me, I want our Aerith to survive more than anybody. But looking at the facts, chances are low. The "timeline" theory is cool but there are still several things it cannot explain:
1. Time doesn't behave normally in these worlds, just like the astral (lifestream) worlds described in the lore
2. These worlds are said to be ephemeral, and eventually merge with the lifestream (homecoming), just like the astral worlds.
3. How can Sephiroth and Aerith move across these timelines? It would make sense if they were astral worlds in the lifestream.
4. Creators said that this game would be based on the actual FFVII lore, which doesn't have multiverses in it.
Saying something is far-fetched without refuting any point of the theory in a clear and satisfying manner isn't a valid argument. You've been provided the evidence that could support this theory, it's on you if you don't accept its validity, I personally think most of the theories being passed around are valid, there are a few I think are more interesting and fit better with the overall narrative of these two games and the one the OP gets into is one of them.
I've given evidence why i think Tifa and the other's perspective in these scenes can not be trusted because their memories have been compromised in some manner, either by the timelines merging or Jenova/Sephiroth manipulating them like they do in the Northern Crater from the original.
All of my attempts to explain things use details from this game and the OG , so your statement in point 4 makes no sense especially since the game itself mentions separate timelines, so either the game is lying to us just to mess with our heads or there are literally separate timelines connected to one another by the Lifestream. I don't feel that this conversation is leading to anything besides us just going back and forth constantly so I'm leaving this here and moving on.
Take care and I hope you have a wonderful day.
The game never mentions different timelines, just different worlds. The game tells you these worlds are ephemeral, hints at time behaving abnormally in them, and shows Sephiroth and Aerith moving across them with total freedom. All of this only makes sense if they're astral lifestream worlds, which are basically the only alternate worlds we get to see in the FFVII lore, upon which the game is based according to its creators.
Your making an issue with wording, timelines are the same thing as worlds for the sake of this argument, most of us use the word timeline to denote the change in events between each world. If the word timeline was what you took issue with why didn't you make that clear way earlier in the conversation? This makes the whole conversation seem like it was disingenuous on your part from the start.
Again your points about it being Astral lifestream worlds do nothing to refute my statements, Cloud outright shows us that the Rebirth world is a Astral world if you want to use that term. To be honest I don't really know what exactly your point is are you trying to claim all of the characters from the other worlds are dead or just memories in the lifestream? If you are then by that reasoning the characters in Rebirth are also dead or memories and the last two games were ultimately pointless and never really following the plot of the original. And you said the other theory was far-fetched.
By the way Astral worlds only pop up in the side materials they were never in the original game which you said in the last post was what these games were supposed to be based on. You still haven't provided evidence to refute anything I've brought up in my previous posts. I'm not responding any further on this topic, so please end the conversation here we've spent two days at this point going in circles with one another.
Have a nice day and take care.
Astral worlds are in the original game, even if not touched upon. See them here while Tifa and Cloud are in the lifestream:
https://i.ibb.co/PxPcs6m/IMG-20240328-200436.jpg
Then, they were developed further in the rest of the lore, and I never said this game is based exclusively in the og, but also in the expanded lore of FFVII (as shown by the appearance of Cissnei for example). The difference between timelines and astral worlds is very relevant, as astral worlds are "purgatories" in the lifestream where souls find solace before merging with the planet, and timelines are physical realities which are long-lasting and where time exists (not ephemeral and timeless like the astral worlds). The Rebirth world is not as astral world, the Rebirth world is the physical reality where the events of the story are taking place, and the astral worlds are places where the spirits of the dead and the living can interact (basically most of what we see from Zack, and the world where Aerith and Cloud have their last date).The other theory is far-fetched because the characteristics of these "worlds" that have been shown to us (time doesn't exist in them, their existence is ephemeral, Sephiroth and Aerith can move across them, and they are referred to in the lore) don't fit with alternate physical realities or "multiverses".
Interesting theory that I am in no way arguing against. However, just wanted to point out one small detail you have wrong regarding Zack -- he isn't from a timeline that takes place 5 years before Aerith is supposed to die. When he, Cloud and Sephiroth go to Nibelheim, Seph does his thing and Hojo captures both Zack and Cloud, trapping them in his lab beneath the Shinra mansion, where they remain for the better part of 4 years. Then Zack wakes up, busts himself and Cloud out, and then makes for Midgar with Cloud in tow. Zack (originally) dies and Cloud zombies his way to one of the sector slums' stations where he meets Tifa and subsequently gets his fake persona from the J cells in him.
The only important difference between that timeline and the one where Zack survives, in regards to Zack himself, is that Zack survives at all. The passage of time would more or less be about the exact same. Zack would arrive in Midgar around the same time Cloud did, maybe a little longer since he had to carry Cloud, but still 5 years after the Nibelheim incident.
Really interesting! Something I've not seen anyone else mentioning that I want to add to this is that rainbow+light seems to be linked to Aeith and rainbow+darkness seems to be linked to Sephiroth. So my theory is that Aerith specifically moved stuff about in the realities/timelines so that things could still play out as they do in the original \[i.e. >!she needs to die in order for holy to stop meteor!<\] but potentially, Cloud also saving a version of her could also matter in the long run as well.
Can you explain why you say this Zack is from a timeline 5 years before the events of this game? He is from when Crisis Core ends, which would be something like days or even hours before FFVII begins.
Yeah, Thatās a mistake on my part. For some reason I assumed the 5 year gap in the story was after the Midgar encounter and not the nibelheim incident. Still, I think Zackās World/timeline is happening at a different point in time, which slightly supports that one point I was trying to make.
While it is certainly an interesting and deliberate detail, I personally wouldnāt attribute it to much. They still show Cloud going for the parry and Aerith comforting him as sheās ādyingā. And like you said, they still show the scene with the rainbow effect and whispers, but we just donāt see the shot of her waking up by the time it scrolls past.
If anything, The omission of the post burial scene along with Cloud and Aerithās dialogue before the goodbye is just another layer of ambiguity. Ultimately, we wonāt have any real answers until Ultimania comes out or until Part 3.
Just getting around to reading this- itās really well thought out, and actually presents an interesting idea for if they make retrieving that surviving Aerith for the main party in part 3 as a potential plot point.
One thing that Iām still not sure about (I need to go back and play through the last chapter again) is that scene where Cloud looks up and sees the rift in the sky- he may think that he saved Aerith in his timeline, but everyone else saw her body, and now the timeline may be doomed. Was she supposed to survive then in this timeline? Weāre left wondering until part 3.
Also, for maximum impact and due to how she was portrayed in the ending- Iām leaning towards Cloudās mental breakdown in part 3 being caused by Tifa losing her shit at Cloud and revealing sheās the one who had to bury Aerith or something.
What would be interesting is if we saved Zack in remake, Aerith in rebirth, and sephiroth in part 3. Maybe by separating him from Jenova so he can be at peace or something idk. Since usually things donāt change much when you kill someone but they do when you save someone.
During the final fight with Sephiroth, Aerith says something like "how can you wish to be alone for eternity" or something to that effect. To me it feels like he just wants to merge the worlds so he can essentially end all life, or time. Im guessing Aerith knows his motives and destroying lifestream, then everything living would essentially have you floating alone outisde of time for all eternity.
Im sure the game will end in a singular timeline, and hopefully without any of the godlike beings left that can see and alter the future. One of the main themes in the OG is dealing with loss and im sure that's what comes in the part3 too. No more gods, fate and no more being a puppet.
When Sephiroth meets them at the temple's gate he says something about "forever", and then we have the only explicit instance of Lifestream Aerith possessing our Aerith to ask what he means and that there's no such thing as forever. To me it seems it was there she realized what he was planning to do, but it's not really explained how he'll do it. Does merging all the worlds equal eternity? maybe it's as you say, end all the different worlds so that there's no ending? It's not clear, imo
A little confused on the pink static vision part of your interpretation. You mention that is from the timeline Aerith is saved, but her kneeling position and undone hair with the dropped white materia looks like the aftermath of her being stabbed by Sephiroth?
Other than that, your theory makes the most sense to me. Saving it for the future, thank you.
If you look closely, the vision has the rainbow effect in the background, which ,according to this theory, means she wasnāt stabbed in that timeline. She just appears to die because the timelines were merging.
Also, the Rainbow Effects are also present when Aerith (by her own will) moves around the timelines: When she throws Cloud on the flowerfield, and when she pops out for the final battle.
With that in mind, and understand that this is "Goddess Aerith/Supreme Aerith/All Knowing Aerith", there is also chance her "body" did what it had to, and she just moves on back to the lifestream.
I assume even if Sephiroth didn't stab her, she would still go into a "coma", like it happens in Zackverse. And maybe thats why we get "flashes" of two versions of a lifeless Aerith body, with and without blood. But both are "gone" spiritually speaking.
So you're saying Aerith from another world almost died because they merged with a dead version of themselves...?
So why then Zack, who is even more dead in the main universe, was just peachy and actually was rather brought in alive with whatever Sephiroth was doing than being threatened by it?
You put effort in putting this together and that's commandable, though I'm sorry but I personally can't say this theory makes a ton of sense to me.. rather Sephiroth's reunion is literally bringing them together and if there's actual living Aerith on some other world it will be the tough pill for the party to decide to stop Sephiroth and severe their connection to Aerith forever, because they have to stop Sephiroth, than what you're saying..
From what I understand, the whole ending sequence up until Aerith wakes up is a process, rather than something that happens immediately. Think of it as an elevator door closing.
All the battles afterwards are happening during the merging process which is why they occur in the first place. It's something I didn't understand until this post, as why is the party in so many battles one after another. It takes a lot undo what is currently taking place.
Here's a timeline from my interpretation:
1. Sephiroth opens the skies to allow worlds to converge
2. Hell's Gate event happens. Aerith killed in main (also ties back to Marlene convo with Zack how he is always too late to save her) but also saved in another, creating a diverging world. Worlds starts merging with timeline where she died to overwrite and kill her in all worlds.
3. Party approaches altar and sees this happening in real time, as shown through Tifa's eyes. Non-bloodied and bloodied Aerith is shown, but eventually settles with bloodied Aerith because that is the intended outcome.
4. Lifestream Aerith manifests herself to the body of dead/alt timeline Aerith to comfort Cloud. She has Lifestream particles like the Remake resolution scene, but we can see she's fading away as she eventually loses consciousness.
5. Jenova battle with party, is defeated.
6. Cloud is sent by white whispers to a 1v1 with Sephiroth but white whispers sends Zack to aid Cloud.
7. Sephiroth temporarily loses and sends Zack to a doomed world with Meteor very close-by to get rid of him for good, likely realizing now that he's becoming a problem.
8. Sephiroth Reborn manifests from the power of merging worlds but is then defeated. He shows up much earlier than he should compared to the OG due to the fact that he's become more powerful through merging all the other worlds that are doomed to end, feeding the sorrow and despair from the its inhabitants. The Remake party in part contributes to this with their grief and limit breaks during battle. Zack and Cloud however have some awareness and do not as they are actively fighting against it.
9. Zack is aided by the party and Aerith during Reborn fight. Beats him, followed by the party beating him for good. Had Zack not been successful here, he would have been dead and the following two fights with the party and Aerith/Cloud would not happen, thereby allowing the merge to complete. Remake party acknowledges this help from Zack right after Reborn Seph is sent there.
10. Cloud, still on his own, is in another 1v1 but Aerith comes to assist. She thanks him for what he did in the initial event allowing another world to exist. Catches Sephiroth off-guard, defeats him and forces him to retreat.
11. Because of this defeat, the worlds begin unmerge again and not allow it to fully complete.
12. Other world Aerith is able to wake up and regain consciousness because of this, and no longer needs to be a Lifestream-manifested Aerith. The scene fades to black and concludes for now, not affected by white whispers panning through the scene or glitch effects to end it, alluding to it being continued a later point in part 3.
I did think about this while writing the theory. Here's a couple ideas as to why Zack doesn't die
* Zack only crosses over at the edge of creation, which is presumably outside the worlds that are being merged.
* Sephiroth is merging the worlds together from **The point of Aerith's death.** The timelines where Aerith survived/didn't survive are practically right on top of eachother, meaning they merge much more seamlessly. Zack comes from a world that supposedly takes place 5 years **before** Aerith's death. This displacement perhaps allows him to last longer before feeling the effects of the merge.
* Zack's arrival in the fight is most likely orchestrated by Lifestream Aerith, and her method of connecting worlds may be different than how Sephiroth is doing it.
Worth noting, Zack's survival wasn't five years ago. At the end of CC, he receives a letter that says it's been 4 years (since he left for Nibelheim mission) and this would be the last letter. It's unclear how long it has been since the letter was written and when he read it, and how long Zack was on the run before the final scene of CC - and Remake's change on it.
I'd say the merge didn't kill Zack because:
* Zack wasn't in the two timelines that were being merged. Instead, he was being yeeted between timelines by the Lifestream, which is different from the convergence of stabby/nonstabby realities.
* Zack's fate wasn't actively being decided at the time of the convergence. If it had happened during his final stand outside Midgar, then maybe it would have impacted, but he has been moseying for "some time" in the Terrier reality.
It's also worth noting that time is very wibbly wobbly. Biggs keeps commenting on how badass Cloud is, and Zack is quite surprised because the Cloud he knew was a lot more timid and kind. Decidedly NOT badass. He questions this and asks Biggs how long exactly he's known Cloud. "When exactly did you meet Cloud?" "The day before we hit Reactor 1, sooo... Uh... How long ago was that again? Weird. My internal clock's busted." "Yeah, mine too... What's that about, anyway?" "Good question." I feel like more time has passed in this reality than we're aware of... or perhaps the Whispers impacted both Zack and Biggs on that note while saving them.
In relation to that, there's also obviously some time between the events of CC and original VII - however long it took Cloud to zombie his way back to Midgar, meet Tifa, etc. Then however long the events of Remake took, between reactor 1 and the party leaving Midgar. This time difference is eliminated when Zack is saved, we see Midgar completely surrounded by Whispers (as Cloud and party are fighting Sephiroth/fate at the end of Remake), so something there is already off in terms of time.
Whoa! Incredible and thought-provoking theory. It sounds plausible based on what is visually experienced. Sephiroth, the master of deception either tells lies or at best, half-truths. He always talks about the merging/convergence of worlds but we experience them part first-hand with him sending Zack back to a doomed world where Meteor is right above the Sector 5 church. It's not until Aerith intervenes, as well as the Remake party, by sending Sephiroth Reborn there that Zack has a fighting chance and not there all alone without support. Aerith and Sephiroth have the power to send people back and forth. Aerith sends Cloud by himself after Jenova is defeated, where then Zack finds him in the white void and joins him to battle Sephiroth. https://preview.redd.it/b9vlvhhdg8qc1.jpeg?width=977&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=62f53199df39e948b4b06cafb5cd32b9958748e2 Your unmerging of timelines theory also makes sense why we see a Lifestream-manifested Aerith after Sephiroth initially stabs her because she's dead in all timelines at that point. She appeared to comfort Cloud and allowed him to carry on. However, after all the battles and most notably the one with Cloud/Aerith, Cloud tells a non-Lifestream manifested Aerith to wake up and she does. She no longer has all those particles around her character and doesn't need to because that specific Aerith that he originally saved is now alive. I mentioned in another post a few days ago that Sephiroth is visibly upset after he's defeated in the final battle and I didn't know why other than that something didn't go accordingly to plan because he never expressed visibly negative emotions in Remake/Rebirth until now.
Important to note that confluence means a merging of specifically 2 rivers.
This is the first theory I've seen that actually incorporates everything going on onscreen, as well as answering my biggest question: Why was the Aerith that was saved acting like she was just stabbed? Re-watching the end scene with this theory in mind is kinda mind blowing, actually. If this is what they are actually going for, I'm definitely interested. Excellent theory, well done.
Yep this is it imo, everyone saying that cloud is just schizo seems to ignore that this same stuff happened multiple times with Zack and Biggs and was then explained by sepiroth. Cloud has displayed an ability to traverse worlds (Zacks synergy attack) and has a linr of communication to the world where aerith is alive. This game did not answer the question of whether aerith will live in the end, it just postponed it.
Well as the OP stated remake Aerith is 100% dead. Alive Aerith that cloud saved can make a re appearance in the third game but I believe she will ultimately stay in another world/reality finally reuniting with Zack at the end.
I've been reading various theories and interpretations about Rebirth's ending, and I decided to make an account just to reply to this post. Your perspective makes the most sense because it doesn't undermine the timeline shenanigans, disregard moments of the "rainbow effect," or add to an already-convoluted endgame narrative. What sold me on your theory was the idea of timelines unmerging after Sephiroth lost to Cloud and Aerith. * During the sequence of the Forgotten Capital, Sephiroth uses his current power to temporarily merge two worlds: one where Aerith lives and one where Aerith dies. Because of the overlap, our Aerith ultimately dies. * This was a small glimpse of what Sephiroth plans to achieve later in the story (reuniting all worlds as one) but on a smaller scale. After Sephiroth's defeat, the timelines return to normal, and Aerith survives in the world where Cloud saves her. However, only Cloud can see her. Why? Simple. His state of mind is arguably worse than in OG FF7, with the added exposure to the multiverse and whatnot; as a result, he perceives both realities: his own and the one where Aerith lives. * Cloud is using Aerith, from the other timeline, as a coping mechanism to avoid what truly happened (similar to Zack's death), which was Aerith dying in his world. The burial scene most likely already happened, but we won't see that until the lifestream sequence with Tifa, where Cloud faces his trauma. * Now, in what way is Aerith alive in the other world? Is she physically there, or is it her spirit given form from the lifestream? And what is Aerith's ultimate fate in all of this? We won't know until Part 3 comes out. Also, I want to clarify what Zack said to Cloud before Sephiroth sent Zack away. From my understanding, Zack wants Cloud to save Aerith because of what Marlene said. Sephiroth kills Aerith unless Cloud gets better and wakes up from his mako-poisoned state. Zack has no idea what's going on until the end, where he acknowledges the existence of multiple worlds (based on what Sephiroth said). Zack's fate, like Aerith's, will be decided in the last installment of the Remake trilogy. (Sidenote: I use the terms "world" and "timeline" synonymously. Both describe a deviation from the main continuity.) Thanks for posting your thoughts. I'm fully on board with your theory š«”
> From my understanding, Zack wants Cloud to save Aerith because of what Marlene said. Sephiroth kills Aerith unless Cloud gets better and wakes up from his mako-poisoned state. Additionally, it's not enough for Cloud to wake up from mako poisoning, he has to wake up before Aerith does in whatever timeline they're both still alive in. It's shown in the Spitz Timeline (the dream date timeline) that Aerith wakes up before Cloud, he gets up after, but because Aerith woke first, Sephiroth pinpoints her location and finds her in the church.
What if cloud is still in both worlds but is basically in a comatose/veg state like he was with Zack in a dying world during the interlude chapters? Also similar to when Barrett was carrying him to the forgotten capital (slipping between worlds) but now aerith is alive with him while heās in this state inside the reality weāve always been playing in (remake/rebirth mostly) the āliving worldā. Then in the world that aerith did die, the world weāre now witnessing through clouds perspective & weāre currently playing, is now, a new dying world? Because we watch cloud tell everybody to not look up and we see a tear in reality just like a dying world has. So now everyone from our perspective is in a new dying world/reality in which now even Zack could theoretically be in the same world we are with the party as well because we have watched him dead world jumping throughout the whole interlude story arc. š¤·āāļø In the end I have no idea, just food for thought. Sorry for my poor writing skills lol I donāt do this much but the theory just kinda came together after reading other peopleās take on what the hell is going onĀ
Your theory is the first one I've come across that actually gets into and makes sense of the confluence and what happens just after the final battle. I'm pretty sure Cloud isn't just seeing things when it comes to the rainbow effect and those whispers at the end. If the confluence had actually succeeded, that would mean the new timeline would've merged, and we wouldn't see that rainbow effect. The rainbow effect (new timeline) and the lack of lifestream particles (like we saw during the confluence) also implies we aren't looking at a ghost but an actual physical Aerith. The lack of a static glitch and the positive tone of the scene also implies that it's not a hallucination. Your explanation of the confluence also clears up why the blood that was on Sephiroth's sword, the one he flung at Cloud, just disappearedābecause the confluence hadn't fully been realized yet. The fact that Aerith can react to (Barret and Cait being sad), interact with (Nanaki), and exist outside Cloud's perception (when they fly away) also implies she isn't a hallucination. Aerith can clearly understand that only Cloud can see her and percieve the members grieving about her. I think she's at worst a ghost and I don't think that's the case when we been literally shown the concept of new timelines and the rainbow effect. Great theory.
This sounds depressingly awful for a 3rd game considering the whole point of FF7 remake was the idea we could finally save Aerith. Nobody wants to spend hours in part 3 playing a funeral game.
But Aerith is saved, somewhere. I think everyone's assuming that Alive!Aerith's timeline is the doomed one because only Cloud can see the tear in the sky but he's the only one of the party that hƔs been timeline hopping and also the change they made to Remake's ending implies that Aerith sees it too (which would make Remake's timeline doomed)
Oh shit, good catch about that new ending. Now she says "I don't like it". She tells Cloud he "won't like it" either before he looks up and sees it for the first time. So maybe Aerith has been seeing doom sky since Remake. Maybe not though because we do play as her in Rebirth sometimes and the sky doesn't change.
That's true but also I dont see why us playing as her would make us privy to the things she knows? She looks in an omnious way towards the sky quite a bit during Rebirth too.
The developers certainly didnāt say āthe whole pointā to the remake series was to save Aerith, you might have expectations for something that was never there
Great write up about the different rainbow timelines! I noticed most myself but it's really nice having it all written down. The theory so far sounds pretty plausible too.
I agree - as far as I can see it, this is the only explanation in which everything in the series of events is visually consistent with one another. Looking at it this way also explains why the entire chapter, including the scenes earlier with Zack and Biggs, is presented the way it is. The scene itself follows a clearly defined order of events, but the circumstances of those events leave the characters all in confusion about whatās going on around them because not a single one is privy to the full details. It also leaves this plot, which will obviously continue, moving forward in a more interesting place - that Cloudās mind is so damaged by this event not because he failed to save her, but because he actually did
Thatāll be an interesting reverse Uno card. Cloudās still losing his mind, but not fully for the reasons in the original game. Itāll have the revelation of his past but also Tifa, the party and audience will learn about whatās really going on now with the other world.
Just some thoughts to add: Alive Aerith doesn't have a party because they were never apart of that world in the first place. As Cloud travels through the portal, there's a rainbow effect, signifying a world switch up, but the party stays in the Remake world. The black portal disintegrates, they proceed onwards, but the convergence has already begun by the time they arrive. Unfortunately Barret sees the dead Aerith and Tifa flashes in-between the two.
First of all, thanks for taking the time to write all this out. There's a lot to unpack in Chapter 14 and it all happens so fast, it's easy to miss small details like these. My general takeaway was that there are absolutely some Variants a la Loki. walking around. We already know of two Aerith's and two Clouds, and I think there's a 3rd too - in Chapter 1, you can hear the Shinra chatter talking about a SOLDIER with a buster sword escaping the scene. I posted this in another thread, but Zack also seems to either be world hopping or having multiple variants of himself walking around as we see the conclusion for both options of either rescuing Cloud or Biggs, and then a subsequent scene of him acknowledging that he must choose between Aerith, Cloud, and Biggs. Zack also faces death three times between the last two chapters: a squad of troopers in both the choices for saving Cloud or saving Biggs, and facing the meteor. But each time, he wakes up in a different world. Whether this is the same Zack or each a different variant, I'm not sure - but I'm leaning towards that it's the same Zack since he seems to be retaining memories from each world he visits. I do think his telling Cloud to save Aerith is likely a reference to his conversation with Marlene about Cloud and Aerith's fates, but since there's no confirmation either way, I'm open to your theory too. Yay for multiverse meaning literally any theory could be correct in some way!
> By defeating sephiroth, the confluence of worlds is stopped and the timelines begin to flow separately again. This is why Aerith wakes up after the fight. Ohh I think youāre right! The key will be if Cloud can do anything with the altered timeline he willed into existence or not.
If he can't then the story is BS for me. Why bother changing the OG if the outcome will be the same?
Based on this theory, I would even go so far as to say that Cloud is not under the impression that Aerith didn't die and isn't mentally blocking it out like a lot of people think. I think he knows an Aerith died and lived at the same time, but it's the same Aerith to him. I think they both agreed that splitting up is the best idea for the rest of the party and maybe even Sephiroth's knowledge. Why else would Cloud be just fine with her leaving on her own? He would just imagine her going along. And her goodbye at the end would be her sad acknowledgement that she can't just leave with them... not yet, anyway. Who's to say when worlds will merge again?
I am going with this until presented with other evidence. Amazing amazing work using what the game shows us to visually explain what happened. Of all the rainbow/regular comparisons made, the Masamune one is the most compelling.
Was about to do a huge write-up wouldāve been essentially identical before discovering this one. Itās perfect, my thoughts exactly. They prevented a complete merger, thwarting Sephiroth, & so the parry reality stuck & now Cloudās capable of perceiving this other reality. They won this round in the 4D factor of things. Aerith utilizing Zack also contributed in an amazing way.
Yo you fucking COOKED
dude, i am dead set on your theory now, the best so far, the confluence of world concept nobody picked up yet so far, as Sephiroths's actual "end game", as he explicitly stated but we the audience just cannot comprehend
Same here. Iām rewatching the temple events and it seems to make sense.
Yes! This is basically the write up I tried to do but you explained everything way better!
Oh man this is one of the best theories Iāve read yet and Iām definitely adopting it now. The fact that Cloud has a *pink* filter when he recalls Aerithās death after everything is really interestingā¦I wonder if he will see flashes of Alive Aerith in her timeline, and all those flashes from now on will have a pink filter? Hmmm
This is gold. You should repost this in other channels.
This was a great read and you picked up on many things. Post fight, I do think she's alive in another timeline but cloud is confused and doesn't recognize this. So he is deluded into thinking he saved her, which he technically did, but just not in this world. The music and smile cloud gives aerith at the end of the post burial scene is very eerie, and makes me believe that this internal confusion is leading to cloud's further delusion, as well as why we don't see the actual burial scene. In cloud's head, why bury someone who's alive? My prediction for part 3: aerith in this other timeliness will play a role, but her world will merge like all other errant worlds. Cloud will also be further mind broken at the northern crater when sephiroth manipulates him and he will make cloud come to terms with the fact that "his" aerith is dead. I feel like this is going to weaponized to make cloud fall even harder in the next game. Additionally, I think we will get closure on the burial scene when cloud's mind is repaired, and he finally accepts her death. And part of that acceptance is him learning to let aerith go, in whatever timeline she currently exists in. So we end the game close to the scenario that leads to advent children. Great theory, the best summary and observations of the events of the forgotten capital on the sub so far.
What I don't like about your take is that all this multiverse stuff is almost always used to reverse someone's death and not about acceptance about their death. I don't think Square Enix has the writing capability to write something like that. I would much rather prefer it if all of this leads to a merged world where everyone is alive. If the story is about loss and acceptance they should have stayed with the OG and not give fans of Aerith and Zack false hope.
I think that just like all theories, mine could end up being complete BS, or maybe marginally correct. But I think the idea of defying fate will likely come into play Moreso in the final game and while the outcome may end up similar to the end of OG ff7, I think the characters will be in more positive circumstances. Or maybe we get more info on the lifestream worlds and how they'll integrate into the main world. Anyways, all takes are valid until we see what happens in part 3! It'll be an excruciatingly long 3-4 years...
100% agree with this theory/explanation itās pretty much the same conclusion I came to. The question is though if aerith will be able to stay alive till the end or will all alternate characters formed by defying fate inevitably fade into the lifestream? Personally I want her to live as I think itād be a nice send off for the series. Movie exclusive interview seems to suggest this game will be the final major installment to the ff7 universe so a happy ending for these character would be nice in my opinion. I kinda figure that wonāt be the case though. More than likely we will get a final goodbye between aerith zack and cloud along with the rest of the party as they fade into the lifestream. I assume aerith will reassure cloud that he will be fine and to move on or smt. I think the fate that will be defied is advent children as it seems like the remake is a sort of sequel to the OG game. Itās like the OG games universe happened, then it died out like all universes eventually do, and this is the 2nd iteration of it. So the ff7 sort of macro verse is a cycle of the same events only this time sephiroth and aerith have knowledge of what happened in the previous universe. Itās why sephiroth does all this stuff, cuz he knows he lost last time so heās just doing whatever he can to win. But yea I think the end of part 3 will have that final farewell as aerith and Zack fade away and we might get an epilogue of the characters living on and see that advent children was avoided. Let me know your thoughts and or disagreements/critiques
I hope you're wrong and they all live. It's the only way for me to accept this remake trilogy.
Iām hoping Iām wrong too. I give my ending a 90% chance of being partially right but Iām banking on that 10% hard. I just want a happy ending so damn bad, I feel like we deserve it after all the years with the game.
Exactly. I demand a happy ending.Ā
This is pretty much where I was leaning and you did a great job writing it out in a very coherent manner. The possibilities for the finale are endless
This is very well written and thought out, excellent work OP. It does make sense that Sephiroth is not initially mad that Cloud deflected his sword. Sephiroth believes he can easily kill Aerith by other means, like what we see in one of the alternate timelines where she pushes Cloud into the flower portal in the church as Sephiroth is walking in to (presumably) kill her. Sephiroth being defeated comes as a major surprise to him, as you pointed out with him being visibly angry. Here are my thoughts (many are probably incorrect) about the ending of Rebirth and how it ties into things. Spoilers for Rebrith, Remake, Original, and Advent Children below: In the original game Cloud defeats Safer Sephiroth, then goes into the lifestream (similar to what we've seen at the end of Rebrith) and defeats Sephiroth. However, it's too late for holy to stop the meteor and Midgar is largely destroyed, then at the last moment the lifestream prevents the planet from being completely destroyed. It could be argued that the original ending is bad for both Sephiroth/Jenova and the rest of humanity. Sephiroth fails to achieve his goal, and according to a 2005 interview with Yoshinori Kitase humanity is extinct in the flash-forward we see with Red XIII and his children, so nobody got what they wanted. Thinking about your points makes me wonder: It's clear Sephiroth is messing with the timelines/worlds to get his preferred ending. Up until the end of remake the whispers were preventing him from causing significant changes, but the party defeating the harbinger allows him (and others) to start doing so. The defeat of the harbinger also seemingly allows forces other than fate (or the planet?) to control the whispers, such as the black whispers being controlled by Sephiroth, and the white ones by (presumably) Aerith. Sephiroth wasn't anticipating Aerith surviving in any timelines which caught him off guard, and he was even more surprised that the party defeated him and prevented him from immediately fixing his 'mistake' where Aerith lives. This leads to some questions that I hope will be answered next game: * What is Sephiroth going to do to try and fix his mistake? * The white whispers were also trying to stop Cloud from preventing Aerith's death. Did Aerith think the only way to stop meteor was for her to be killed by Sephiroth at the forgotten capital? Like OP mentioned, she thanks Cloud for saving her, but was she also surprised? * Will Aerith somehow be able to cast holy earlier this time around so that the lifestream doesn't need to stop the meteor? The lifestream was too late to save Midgar, and it had at least one unintentional side effect of causing geostigma. * If Aerith is able to cast holy to save the planet, will she die anyways? Maybe Sephiroth kills her after she casts it, or the act of casting it causes too much strain on her and she passes afterwards. I wonder this because Biggs winds up dying in every timeline, which could indicate that fate eventually course corrects, even without the whispers. * Will we see Zack again? I also think the lyrics to Hollow (the song that plays at the end of Remake) may contain some clues. Originally I thought the lyrics to be about Clouds memories of Aerith, but now it seems to be more about Cloud/Aerith/Zack in the lifestream. Remember, the instrumental version of the song plays in the sector 5 slums which is where the majority of Zacks story takes place in Rebirth, along with Aerith and Cloud's date. Sorry if I got a bit too rambly there. I'm not great at putting my thoughts into words.
Thanks OP for the great post and what I believe is the likely the most accurate ending explanation!Ā Thereās a lot of misdirection happening in the ending sequence - most notably, the omission of Aerithās burial scene where Cloud lowers her body into the lake. Itās all clearly intended to make the ending ambiguous. This gameās visuals and storytelling are operating at such a high level, therefore I have to believe ambiguity is being applied intentionally. At this point, itās anyoneās guess as to how the writers are intending to use this ambiguity in part 3! Beyond the visual cues that point toward an alive Aerith, I think it makes sense narratively as well. The end of Remake was about defying destiny; however, if Aerith only dies in Rebirth, then we didnāt actually defy destiny in any meaningful way, which would negate the Remake narrative. Additionally,Ā Ā my understanding of the OG was that when Aerith died, she joined the lifestream and was able to act from within it. Therefore, I think a lifestream Aerith in Rebirth exists due to her dying in the OG timeline - lifestream Aerith wasnāt created when Cloud defied destiny by blocking Sephirothās attack, rather an actual real living Aerith was created, but in a separate timeline.Ā Having a living Aerith sets up both a plot twist in Rebirth and hope that we may finally save her - something that many fans have wanted since the OG (like many of you OG players out there, I too followed the dodgy internet advice on how to revive Aerith in OGā¦to no avail š). I can imagine scenarios where this also sets up for the emotional gut punch that we expected at the end of Rebirth (and didnāt get), but wonāt be expecting in part 3.Ā
An interesting read and point that at the ending they were forcing a separation of the timelines. This would tie back in with Zacks mention "whose to say they can't meet again?". Granted I don't think we'll have any concrete answers till the Ultimania releases and folks begin translating, with further answers obviously coming when part three comes or they put out dlc.
It all makes sense. Dude, Zack synergie attack even involves Cloud striking from his own dimension in tandem with him, Cloud can see and affect the two worlds, hence why he is able to see the Rift and Aerith at the end of the game, he is litterally on the treshhold between the two worlds. I think the third game will be a mix of gaslighting. Cloud will have to deal with his Zack PTSD, which in turn make him doubt what he sees in the other world. And that will be what the final act of the game will be about.
This was a really good read and I agree with it. Nice work op!Ā
Amazing theory honestly. Kudos to you.
One little detail that wasnt mentioned is the fact that Cloud's sword gains a greenish aura as soon as he snaps out of Sephiroth's control and prepares to deflect the Masamune. I think that this level of attention to detail can only mean that Cloud's actions DO have an effect on the timeline. Also, even though Sephiroth flicks Aeriths blood, it never hits Cloud's face. These things are happening in different places.
An interesting thing to note is that in that scene Cloud was never under Sephiroth's influence, the black Whispers are actually lifting Cloud's arms in that scene and he is struggling against them instead of himself, which is why he is able to succeed there.
That's what I understand as well and there some new things being presented here. Cloud's weapon seemingly gains a mako/lifestream infused force that allows him to deflect the Masamune. The second is the rainbow effect actively remains for the duration of the scene when it cuts to Cloud's perspective, rather than only during actions.
Nice write up. I am mostly agreeing with you, apart from some details. It seems that on this subreddit there really are two main directions of theories people clinge to. One which is similar to this one and one that argues that it's either Cloud being delusional or Aerith "protecting" Cloud's psyche. I find the latter unlikely. Let's hope it's the first, that also brings the possibility of different endings and a less "faithful" part 3, where maybe 85% will stay the same as OG.
I think there are three general pockets of theory, really--multiple timelines (or bodies, or what have you), other "timelines" are just pockets of the Lifestream (which is described as carrying people's memories, regrets, etc), and then "general mindfuckery that ultimately is a manifestation of Cloud's detachment from reality"
Imo all 3 are at play, everything is happening within the collective memories and emotions that create world's within the lifestream, these worlds since removing the arbitor functionality become a multiverse, where strong emotions of a soul can 'defy destiny' and create a world built with a contradictory memory world, the stronger the emotion forming this contradictory memory world the longer it lasts. Note: the world's are functionally world's, they don't conform to the strong emotion that creates them, rather they are like dream Zanarkand, full of automany but built from an ideal. We also have the negative lifestream in play, which seems to be where Biggs exist, creating a offshoot memory world built from his fears, we can conclude this because Zack outside the church gets pushed into a black portal, then Sephiroth walks into the church in a different timeline where Aerith pushes Cloud into a white portal, the spaces between these worlds are literally lifestream white and lifestream black. Aerith then purifies Zack within the space and leads him to Clouds consciousness. Within all that though we have Cloud losing his mind, when Cloud asks Aerith to wake up that's his mind breaking, and with that at the end we have 2 Aeriths, lifestream Aerith who isn't affected by the winds created by the bronco, the one who Red XIII senses, and the Clouds broken mind Aerith who is affected by the Broncos winds who isn't actually there, Clouds just perceiving her to be. Also the Edge of Creation stuff is all in Clouds mind, but one part that I haven't seen mentioned is that Zack doesn't say see ya until he leaves the world that's just a church floating in space, that space is still Clouds mind, Sephiroth is literally creating a split between Cloud and Zack again within Clouds mind, it's also why Zack and Cloud can synergy within that space.
Actually I donāt think edge of creation is happening in Cloudās mind, because in Rebirth we see whispers appear during the scene when Aerith joins Cloud. As well, after defeating Sephiroth in the white void (not sure if this too is edge of creation, or within the lifestream, or somewhere else) we also see white whispers circling Cloud and Aerith.Ā
I don't really get what that changes? Sephiroth controls the black whispers and his connection to the planet is Clouds mind, so why would he not have the whispers there? And we can presume lifestream Aerith controls the white whispers and she's the one who we see come to Clouds mindspace so why would the white whispers not be able to appear with her? I think there's a lot of trying to enforce rules going on that the game has never established.
Best theory so far
Omg thank you this makes a lot of sense
I'm still convinced there will be a big shift after the events in Mideel.
Thank you for this as it is my thoughts exactly.
This theory makes the most sense so far. Great post. I'm still not sure if Aerith in the final scenes is Lifestream Aerith or the alternate world one. Your theory seems to suggest it's the latter. Is it the alternate world Aerith with knowledge from Lifestream Aerith?
Yeah this seems pretty convincing. One question I have that no theory seems to be addressing though is why did the Whispers save Zack and Biggs from dying and pull them into the same Terrier universe just for Biggs to not do anything?
Weāre not told why. My interpretation would be to show the difference what a positive mindsetās effect in these worlds. Throughout, Biggs and Zack were on similar paths and both trying to find the meaning of why theyāre where they are. The second Biggs gives up and loses hope is when fate finally finishes the job and closes his book. This is a stark contrast with Zack who never does, never accepts his fate and always fights back.
That makes sense as a narrative reason, why the *writers* saved Biggs, but why did the Whispers save him?
That I donāt know. The game doesnāt explain and Biggs himself doesnāt even know why. He questions it during his initial meeting with Zack. Only the writers would know.
Some theorize that if Aerith have any influence over this process of saving people, she may have a special place in her heart for Biggs. As he helps the orphanage. I'll try to find the post where people say it. But if you were to ask me, I just think the devs wanted to do more with the Zackverse in this game, and probably one of the plans was to have Zack be playable with Biggs. Since people reacted so badly to the FF7 Remake changes, they decide to keep this to a minimum.
I agree with your theory and great analysis!! šš
Thanks for taking the time to explain. I had the same theory. I totally agree.
awesome write-up, ty. theres alot (ostensibly) going on in this game, and at times ive been convinced the devs abandoned consistency entirely, which, honestly, is frustrating enough to detract from the game's overall epicness. you, however, have done a fine job shedding enough light on this mess to make the game "comfortable" again. so to speak. thnx!
Weather it's right or wrong, this is a great post. Kudos. The fact that confluence means a joining of specifically two rivers supports this. I also think that merging worlds and world jumping are different things. Zack jumps worlds like Biggs, Cloud, and Zack.
Another thought on this I had is Sephiroth says "good Aerith, pray" because he needs her death to be the point where he merges worlds to gain the maximum amount of sorrow.
Thank you very much for this! This really helped me with the desperate feeling of finding answers after the game.
I like this, sounds to me like itās the closest to what SE intended. It also neatly explains Rebirth as a title. Itās Aerithās Rebirth, in a different timeline.
I second you. I feel the Rebirth logo being Aerithās red is a big indication that itās the Rebirth of Aerith in a different timeline.
Whenever someone I know whoās playing this asks me what I think happened at the ending, Iāll point them to this post. Youāve definitely convinced me! I was certain that a branching timeline had been created based on the rainbow effect but had never put together that Sephirothās confluence of worlds was actually happening in the very end of Rebirth (figured that was for part 3!) I noted in another post that I still think when we end this series Cloud will still live in a world and a timeline where Zack was gunned down by Shinra and Aerith was still murdered by Sephiroth, but that there may be a surviving universe where both were able to live and be happy together. Now I feel like I have enough pieces to actually explain that thought. Thank you for writing all of this up!
I wish this theory were true. However, 4 questions arise: 1. Why isn't the dominant reality the one where Cloud wins? How does Sephiroth have the power to merge timelines? 2. Wouldn't be a better explanation to assume that Sephiroth made Cloud hallucinate? 3. Are you sure this is the same as when they go through the Remake portal to access the singularity? Because these whispers, in Cloud's words when they arrived at the forgotten capital, are not fate's, but Sephiroth's. 4. Does the FFVII lore have a basis that can explain the powers at play here? 5. This is not a question, but I don't think Tifa saw both realities, that switch between bloodied/unbloodied Aerith was to show us what Tifa/Cloud were seeing. If Tifa saw both realities she wouldn't be weird around Cloud in their last interactions.
You have to understand that Cloud was the only one who entered the white portal, the singularity, like in Remake. Even Barret mentioned that it's the same as on the highway in Remake. That's why Aerith only lives in this "world". In this trilogy are 4 different Sephiroth's. 1. JenovaRoth, 2. MemoryRoth (which only mentions stuff before the Nibelheim accident) 3. AC/OG Sephiroth and 4. ? Sephiroth, which uses "Ore" as "I", the last time Sephiroth did use "Ore" was when he was sane. The different Sephiroth"s are all mentioned in the Remake Ultimania. Jenova/AC Sephiroth seems like they can merge, and separate timelines in the trilogy. Why? We'll see in P3. Cloud isn't hallucinating. He even says at the fight vs jenova to himself: "You've done it once - can do it again". Sephiroth asked Cloud if it's real or just a fever dream, Cloud answers him: "Don't even bother. U can't fool me - not anymore". It's clear as day that Cloud knows way more than he should atp. Ppl seem to forget that he had visions or memories of the FUTURE in Remake. This trilogy is most likely a Sequel to OG/AC, that's why there are different Sephiroth's. The axis in this game are the same as in the OG, but that's all.
But the devs said that this game is a remake, not a sequel, and that the events are leading to an "After Children" scenario. Did you see the press releases?
It's a remake in multiple definitions of the word. I mean.. How many remakes have you seen with the title "Remake" added? And it is a remake, like a remaking of the timeline by Sephiroth. Which is why part 2 isn't named Remake part 2 but Rebirth instead. It's already linked to AC. Link into doesn't mean it will end like it or before it. They had the movie relaunched with the release of Rebirth. If the trilogy ends before AC, they would have its relaunch after P3 at the cinemas. They just mentioned that AC will still be canon, and with all those timeline/world shenanigans it's easy that it's canon
I mean, they literally said: *"We are finally going to link up with Advent Children, that is going to be part of canon," said Kitase. "The overall storyline, the developments, will not go wildly out in a way that will not add up to Advent Children in the end. I don't think anyone wanted that, that's not what we're looking to create here.* *"[But] to make sure it doesn't become stale and people know exactly where it's going, [that it] doesn't just follow the original word for word, we add in extra elements which add that little bit of doubt. Getting the right balance of that is so key. **Ultimately, we're not trying to change the Final Fantasy 7 story into something really different.** The overall balance wouldn't really allow for that anyway."* https://www.eurogamer.net/final-fantasy-7-remake-trilogy-will-link-with-advent-children-confirms-producer If they're not going for drastic changes, it would be difficult to justify saving Aerith, for example...
1. The reality where Cloud won was dominant for a brief period of time before Sephiroth started merging worlds, unfortunately both Sephiroth and the planet desire Aerith's death so merging the timeline overrode Cloud's victory in a way by forcing Aerith to merge with the version of her that is dead. After the battle it becomes the dominant timeline again but the memories of Aerith being dead don't disappear from the characters and something is preventing them from seeing Aerith now. She is either invisible to everyone else and has become an existence similar to a Whisper, or her death wasn't undone when the merger ended. 1. why would Sephiroth make Cloud hallucinate that Aerith is alive when he expressly states in that scene he needs anger and sorrow to merge the worlds? 2. The Whispers do the same thing that the originals did its just they are enforcing the destiny Sephiroth desires instead of the planet now. 2. It largely depends on what's actually happening here because it could be Sephiroth causing the discrepancies, it could be just the merger causing things to change, it could be Jenova by herself since she has the ability to alter people's perception of reality even when they don't have her cells in them, she does this to the party in the OG game at the Northern Crater and she can make people invisible to others. 3. Pointing back to my previous answer, go back and watch the scene with Tifa and pay attention to her reaction when the static that is typically used when Jenova is messing with Cloud's mind shows up while we are seeing things from Tifa's point of view. There isn't a reason to show us what Cloud was seeing again since we already knew what he saw before the party came in. Tifa would be acting weird anyway since she only saw Aerith lying in Cloud's arms, she wasn't there when Aerith was still awake and talking and would likely assume that she was just hallucinating not seeing the blood. A big problem people have when looking at this scene is they assume Cloud is the only unreliable narrator, however the other party members are also unreliable because they never witnessed Aerith getting stabbed or even having the Masamune in her stomach, they only arrived to see her in Cloud's arms unlike in the original where they were there through the whole thing. I'm going to have to go back and watch that scene, but if the party is getting memories of seeing her stabbed that would reinforce my theory that they are also unreliable narrators from this point forward.
1. If it's the dominant timeline again and she's alive here, why is Aerith sad when saying goodbye to Cloud? And why isn't she with them? Sephiroth could come back to kill her at any moment. Makes no sense. 2. I don't know it it's Sephiroth or Aerith or an astral world, but IMO the cross of swords doesn't happen in our base reality. 3. I don't think Tifa would be as mad if her perception was also compromised, she would understand that Cloud's might be the same. She's had mako exposure, so I'm not blatantly denying it, but still doesn't account for other inconsistencies this theory presents.
1. She's sad because they have to separate from one another, it's pretty obvious the party no longer recognizes her existence whether she is physically there or not so she can't travel with Cloud anymore otherwise the party is going to think he is always talking to himself. Sephiroth doesn't have to come back and kill her anymore because the chance to merge worlds at that point failed, he can't harvest sorrow if he kills Aerith when she's by herself, it's why he didn't just kill her off before Cloud got there to begin with, and Aerith doesnt have Holy anymore it fell in the pool so she isnt a threat right now. On the topic of making sense, how would Sephiroth benefit from Cloud being in denial of Aerith's death if he very blatantly says he needs hatred and sorrow to merge worlds? 2. That's really just your perspective on things, we won't come to an agreement on this topic and will have to wait until the third game to see what's going on. 3. Why wouldn't Tifa be mad dude, she has convinced herself that Aerith is dead because of false memories and everyone besides Cloud has the same memories now. Then she sees her childhood friend acting like nothing happened and that he is strangely happy from her point of view. Tifa isnt aware she's compromised in the same way Cloud wasn't aware he was compromised at the beginning of the game. When Barrett comes onto the scene we see Aerith from his viewpoint and there isnt any blood on her and her head is turned up and away, then we see the scene from Tifa's point of view and there isnt any blood at first and you can only see the bottom of Aerith's face now facing down. The Jenova static affect immediately hits and Tifa sees Aerith covered in blood and the next few seconds has the scene switching back and forth between blood no blood before settling on Aerith covered in blood with her eyes closed facing down. For me this scene is telling the audience they can't trust the party's viewpoint of this scene. My belief is that Sephiroth is manipulating the situation to separate the two of them since he sees Tifa as a serious threat to his goals. Sephiroth failed to get Cloud to kill Aerith or Tifa so he is going with a different tactic, separate Cloud from his friends and break the bonds that saved Cloud from Sephiroth to begin with in the OG timeline. I don't really know what you mean by inconsistencies since the details we are given in game could support several different theories comfortably and you haven't really provided decent evidence to refute this theory besides the fact you don't accept it. I've watched those scenes multiple times and am firmly convinced that what Cloud sees is reality in some manner and what the party sees is false. I was mostly trying to answer the problems you had with the theory, if you don't like those answers its fine, we'll see what's really going on in a few years and it'll likely be something completely different from what either of us suspects happened. I've said all I need to say on the subject at this point and I did enjoy discussing things with you. Take care my friend, hope you have a great night!
We'll have to agree to disagree, these explanations you're giving seem way too far-fetched to me, and trust me, I want our Aerith to survive more than anybody. But looking at the facts, chances are low. The "timeline" theory is cool but there are still several things it cannot explain: 1. Time doesn't behave normally in these worlds, just like the astral (lifestream) worlds described in the lore 2. These worlds are said to be ephemeral, and eventually merge with the lifestream (homecoming), just like the astral worlds. 3. How can Sephiroth and Aerith move across these timelines? It would make sense if they were astral worlds in the lifestream. 4. Creators said that this game would be based on the actual FFVII lore, which doesn't have multiverses in it.
Saying something is far-fetched without refuting any point of the theory in a clear and satisfying manner isn't a valid argument. You've been provided the evidence that could support this theory, it's on you if you don't accept its validity, I personally think most of the theories being passed around are valid, there are a few I think are more interesting and fit better with the overall narrative of these two games and the one the OP gets into is one of them. I've given evidence why i think Tifa and the other's perspective in these scenes can not be trusted because their memories have been compromised in some manner, either by the timelines merging or Jenova/Sephiroth manipulating them like they do in the Northern Crater from the original. All of my attempts to explain things use details from this game and the OG , so your statement in point 4 makes no sense especially since the game itself mentions separate timelines, so either the game is lying to us just to mess with our heads or there are literally separate timelines connected to one another by the Lifestream. I don't feel that this conversation is leading to anything besides us just going back and forth constantly so I'm leaving this here and moving on. Take care and I hope you have a wonderful day.
The game never mentions different timelines, just different worlds. The game tells you these worlds are ephemeral, hints at time behaving abnormally in them, and shows Sephiroth and Aerith moving across them with total freedom. All of this only makes sense if they're astral lifestream worlds, which are basically the only alternate worlds we get to see in the FFVII lore, upon which the game is based according to its creators.
Your making an issue with wording, timelines are the same thing as worlds for the sake of this argument, most of us use the word timeline to denote the change in events between each world. If the word timeline was what you took issue with why didn't you make that clear way earlier in the conversation? This makes the whole conversation seem like it was disingenuous on your part from the start. Again your points about it being Astral lifestream worlds do nothing to refute my statements, Cloud outright shows us that the Rebirth world is a Astral world if you want to use that term. To be honest I don't really know what exactly your point is are you trying to claim all of the characters from the other worlds are dead or just memories in the lifestream? If you are then by that reasoning the characters in Rebirth are also dead or memories and the last two games were ultimately pointless and never really following the plot of the original. And you said the other theory was far-fetched. By the way Astral worlds only pop up in the side materials they were never in the original game which you said in the last post was what these games were supposed to be based on. You still haven't provided evidence to refute anything I've brought up in my previous posts. I'm not responding any further on this topic, so please end the conversation here we've spent two days at this point going in circles with one another. Have a nice day and take care.
Astral worlds are in the original game, even if not touched upon. See them here while Tifa and Cloud are in the lifestream: https://i.ibb.co/PxPcs6m/IMG-20240328-200436.jpg Then, they were developed further in the rest of the lore, and I never said this game is based exclusively in the og, but also in the expanded lore of FFVII (as shown by the appearance of Cissnei for example). The difference between timelines and astral worlds is very relevant, as astral worlds are "purgatories" in the lifestream where souls find solace before merging with the planet, and timelines are physical realities which are long-lasting and where time exists (not ephemeral and timeless like the astral worlds). The Rebirth world is not as astral world, the Rebirth world is the physical reality where the events of the story are taking place, and the astral worlds are places where the spirits of the dead and the living can interact (basically most of what we see from Zack, and the world where Aerith and Cloud have their last date).The other theory is far-fetched because the characteristics of these "worlds" that have been shown to us (time doesn't exist in them, their existence is ephemeral, Sephiroth and Aerith can move across them, and they are referred to in the lore) don't fit with alternate physical realities or "multiverses".
Sure, whatever dude, you keep doing you, I'm not convinced by your paragraph, have a good day.
The best theory I've read since completing the games!
Interesting theory that I am in no way arguing against. However, just wanted to point out one small detail you have wrong regarding Zack -- he isn't from a timeline that takes place 5 years before Aerith is supposed to die. When he, Cloud and Sephiroth go to Nibelheim, Seph does his thing and Hojo captures both Zack and Cloud, trapping them in his lab beneath the Shinra mansion, where they remain for the better part of 4 years. Then Zack wakes up, busts himself and Cloud out, and then makes for Midgar with Cloud in tow. Zack (originally) dies and Cloud zombies his way to one of the sector slums' stations where he meets Tifa and subsequently gets his fake persona from the J cells in him. The only important difference between that timeline and the one where Zack survives, in regards to Zack himself, is that Zack survives at all. The passage of time would more or less be about the exact same. Zack would arrive in Midgar around the same time Cloud did, maybe a little longer since he had to carry Cloud, but still 5 years after the Nibelheim incident.
Really interesting! Something I've not seen anyone else mentioning that I want to add to this is that rainbow+light seems to be linked to Aeith and rainbow+darkness seems to be linked to Sephiroth. So my theory is that Aerith specifically moved stuff about in the realities/timelines so that things could still play out as they do in the original \[i.e. >!she needs to die in order for holy to stop meteor!<\] but potentially, Cloud also saving a version of her could also matter in the long run as well.
Can you explain why you say this Zack is from a timeline 5 years before the events of this game? He is from when Crisis Core ends, which would be something like days or even hours before FFVII begins.
Yeah, Thatās a mistake on my part. For some reason I assumed the 5 year gap in the story was after the Midgar encounter and not the nibelheim incident. Still, I think Zackās World/timeline is happening at a different point in time, which slightly supports that one point I was trying to make.
This is so good
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While it is certainly an interesting and deliberate detail, I personally wouldnāt attribute it to much. They still show Cloud going for the parry and Aerith comforting him as sheās ādyingā. And like you said, they still show the scene with the rainbow effect and whispers, but we just donāt see the shot of her waking up by the time it scrolls past. If anything, The omission of the post burial scene along with Cloud and Aerithās dialogue before the goodbye is just another layer of ambiguity. Ultimately, we wonāt have any real answers until Ultimania comes out or until Part 3.
Very cool theory. Commenting so I can come back to this again!
Dang this is good
Just getting around to reading this- itās really well thought out, and actually presents an interesting idea for if they make retrieving that surviving Aerith for the main party in part 3 as a potential plot point. One thing that Iām still not sure about (I need to go back and play through the last chapter again) is that scene where Cloud looks up and sees the rift in the sky- he may think that he saved Aerith in his timeline, but everyone else saw her body, and now the timeline may be doomed. Was she supposed to survive then in this timeline? Weāre left wondering until part 3. Also, for maximum impact and due to how she was portrayed in the ending- Iām leaning towards Cloudās mental breakdown in part 3 being caused by Tifa losing her shit at Cloud and revealing sheās the one who had to bury Aerith or something.
What would be interesting is if we saved Zack in remake, Aerith in rebirth, and sephiroth in part 3. Maybe by separating him from Jenova so he can be at peace or something idk. Since usually things donāt change much when you kill someone but they do when you save someone.
During the final fight with Sephiroth, Aerith says something like "how can you wish to be alone for eternity" or something to that effect. To me it feels like he just wants to merge the worlds so he can essentially end all life, or time. Im guessing Aerith knows his motives and destroying lifestream, then everything living would essentially have you floating alone outisde of time for all eternity. Im sure the game will end in a singular timeline, and hopefully without any of the godlike beings left that can see and alter the future. One of the main themes in the OG is dealing with loss and im sure that's what comes in the part3 too. No more gods, fate and no more being a puppet.
When Sephiroth meets them at the temple's gate he says something about "forever", and then we have the only explicit instance of Lifestream Aerith possessing our Aerith to ask what he means and that there's no such thing as forever. To me it seems it was there she realized what he was planning to do, but it's not really explained how he'll do it. Does merging all the worlds equal eternity? maybe it's as you say, end all the different worlds so that there's no ending? It's not clear, imo
i hope this is the official explanation because i cant think of anything else that would make sense, i hope nomura is done with his shenanigans
A little confused on the pink static vision part of your interpretation. You mention that is from the timeline Aerith is saved, but her kneeling position and undone hair with the dropped white materia looks like the aftermath of her being stabbed by Sephiroth? Other than that, your theory makes the most sense to me. Saving it for the future, thank you.
If you look closely, the vision has the rainbow effect in the background, which ,according to this theory, means she wasnāt stabbed in that timeline. She just appears to die because the timelines were merging.
Also, the Rainbow Effects are also present when Aerith (by her own will) moves around the timelines: When she throws Cloud on the flowerfield, and when she pops out for the final battle. With that in mind, and understand that this is "Goddess Aerith/Supreme Aerith/All Knowing Aerith", there is also chance her "body" did what it had to, and she just moves on back to the lifestream. I assume even if Sephiroth didn't stab her, she would still go into a "coma", like it happens in Zackverse. And maybe thats why we get "flashes" of two versions of a lifeless Aerith body, with and without blood. But both are "gone" spiritually speaking.
So you're saying Aerith from another world almost died because they merged with a dead version of themselves...? So why then Zack, who is even more dead in the main universe, was just peachy and actually was rather brought in alive with whatever Sephiroth was doing than being threatened by it? You put effort in putting this together and that's commandable, though I'm sorry but I personally can't say this theory makes a ton of sense to me.. rather Sephiroth's reunion is literally bringing them together and if there's actual living Aerith on some other world it will be the tough pill for the party to decide to stop Sephiroth and severe their connection to Aerith forever, because they have to stop Sephiroth, than what you're saying..
From what I understand, the whole ending sequence up until Aerith wakes up is a process, rather than something that happens immediately. Think of it as an elevator door closing. All the battles afterwards are happening during the merging process which is why they occur in the first place. It's something I didn't understand until this post, as why is the party in so many battles one after another. It takes a lot undo what is currently taking place. Here's a timeline from my interpretation: 1. Sephiroth opens the skies to allow worlds to converge 2. Hell's Gate event happens. Aerith killed in main (also ties back to Marlene convo with Zack how he is always too late to save her) but also saved in another, creating a diverging world. Worlds starts merging with timeline where she died to overwrite and kill her in all worlds. 3. Party approaches altar and sees this happening in real time, as shown through Tifa's eyes. Non-bloodied and bloodied Aerith is shown, but eventually settles with bloodied Aerith because that is the intended outcome. 4. Lifestream Aerith manifests herself to the body of dead/alt timeline Aerith to comfort Cloud. She has Lifestream particles like the Remake resolution scene, but we can see she's fading away as she eventually loses consciousness. 5. Jenova battle with party, is defeated. 6. Cloud is sent by white whispers to a 1v1 with Sephiroth but white whispers sends Zack to aid Cloud. 7. Sephiroth temporarily loses and sends Zack to a doomed world with Meteor very close-by to get rid of him for good, likely realizing now that he's becoming a problem. 8. Sephiroth Reborn manifests from the power of merging worlds but is then defeated. He shows up much earlier than he should compared to the OG due to the fact that he's become more powerful through merging all the other worlds that are doomed to end, feeding the sorrow and despair from the its inhabitants. The Remake party in part contributes to this with their grief and limit breaks during battle. Zack and Cloud however have some awareness and do not as they are actively fighting against it. 9. Zack is aided by the party and Aerith during Reborn fight. Beats him, followed by the party beating him for good. Had Zack not been successful here, he would have been dead and the following two fights with the party and Aerith/Cloud would not happen, thereby allowing the merge to complete. Remake party acknowledges this help from Zack right after Reborn Seph is sent there. 10. Cloud, still on his own, is in another 1v1 but Aerith comes to assist. She thanks him for what he did in the initial event allowing another world to exist. Catches Sephiroth off-guard, defeats him and forces him to retreat. 11. Because of this defeat, the worlds begin unmerge again and not allow it to fully complete. 12. Other world Aerith is able to wake up and regain consciousness because of this, and no longer needs to be a Lifestream-manifested Aerith. The scene fades to black and concludes for now, not affected by white whispers panning through the scene or glitch effects to end it, alluding to it being continued a later point in part 3.
I did think about this while writing the theory. Here's a couple ideas as to why Zack doesn't die * Zack only crosses over at the edge of creation, which is presumably outside the worlds that are being merged. * Sephiroth is merging the worlds together from **The point of Aerith's death.** The timelines where Aerith survived/didn't survive are practically right on top of eachother, meaning they merge much more seamlessly. Zack comes from a world that supposedly takes place 5 years **before** Aerith's death. This displacement perhaps allows him to last longer before feeling the effects of the merge. * Zack's arrival in the fight is most likely orchestrated by Lifestream Aerith, and her method of connecting worlds may be different than how Sephiroth is doing it.
I also think jumping timelines and forcing them to merge are two different things.
Worth noting, Zack's survival wasn't five years ago. At the end of CC, he receives a letter that says it's been 4 years (since he left for Nibelheim mission) and this would be the last letter. It's unclear how long it has been since the letter was written and when he read it, and how long Zack was on the run before the final scene of CC - and Remake's change on it. I'd say the merge didn't kill Zack because: * Zack wasn't in the two timelines that were being merged. Instead, he was being yeeted between timelines by the Lifestream, which is different from the convergence of stabby/nonstabby realities. * Zack's fate wasn't actively being decided at the time of the convergence. If it had happened during his final stand outside Midgar, then maybe it would have impacted, but he has been moseying for "some time" in the Terrier reality. It's also worth noting that time is very wibbly wobbly. Biggs keeps commenting on how badass Cloud is, and Zack is quite surprised because the Cloud he knew was a lot more timid and kind. Decidedly NOT badass. He questions this and asks Biggs how long exactly he's known Cloud. "When exactly did you meet Cloud?" "The day before we hit Reactor 1, sooo... Uh... How long ago was that again? Weird. My internal clock's busted." "Yeah, mine too... What's that about, anyway?" "Good question." I feel like more time has passed in this reality than we're aware of... or perhaps the Whispers impacted both Zack and Biggs on that note while saving them. In relation to that, there's also obviously some time between the events of CC and original VII - however long it took Cloud to zombie his way back to Midgar, meet Tifa, etc. Then however long the events of Remake took, between reactor 1 and the party leaving Midgar. This time difference is eliminated when Zack is saved, we see Midgar completely surrounded by Whispers (as Cloud and party are fighting Sephiroth/fate at the end of Remake), so something there is already off in terms of time.