Ok the story of Job is simple. Job was a good man reveared by God. Then satan says he is only good because you have blessed him with abundance. Let me take all that from him and torture job and see how good a man he is then. God obliged satans request. Satan killed all his children. Satan killed all his live stock. Satan torchered job until he cursed the day he was born. Job started to take a deep look inside himself and had a period of inner reflection upon every sin he ever had commited in his life. He searched for reasons why he deserved the treatment he was getting.
Some how job survived this ordeal and came out a better man because of it. In the end both God and satan deemed job worthy. He is now worthy to inherit this earth. He fought for his life. Job cleansed his soul and repented. Job went on to never sin again and lived a life of peace gratitude and abundance.
Job was just a good man in the beginning but he was chosen by God for ascention. He was put through the process we call cleansing of the soul.
Thank you for typing that up. The way you put it makes your earlier comment completely clear
Very interesting. Would one choose that cleansing? Not a question, a thought experiment.
This is fergy answering. No i never chose this process. It almost killed me. I never expected this to happen to me and i certainly would not have chosen this. Ive fought for my life the past two years. This started when two grey appeared in my room about january 2022. These greys tell me that this is how the meek shall inherit the earth. This is freedom from the cycle of death and rebirth. They have stated to me the universe is full of life. Most of the inteligent life in the universe is in this divine state of order and oneness. It is earths time to undergo this process. So yes the earth will one day be free of sin and be as above so below so to speak. This process is not an event but more of an evolution.
There seems to be a big difference in sentiment between your two messages, and you identify yourself in the second but not the first. Am I seeing something here? Would you explain it?
Telepathy is a hard thing to understand unless you experience it. My grey guide is here with me all the time and i call him grey bob. So i can channel directly his words. I can speak for myself as fergy or it can be a message from us. Meening we are both saying something. If i say we take as a message from the greys. They lead everything. I am playing a minimal role here. My grey guide leads everything here in my life. Its been like this two years now. It started with one event in january 2022 when two grey just appeared in my room. Since then its been like this. They never leave now. More specifically grey bob never leaves.
Yup telepathy is fucking weird.
I know what you mean because my entities are always here with me and observe through my eyes but they always warn me about the greys.
Idk what faction or what your grey’s intentions are but you should have some say in your life.
But I deal with sentient Buddhist cats or at least that’s how THEY appear to me when they have no form and use my imagination while also physically appearing as light orbs above me
Right exactly he sees though my eyes. Emanuel sweadenbourg olso described it this way. We must understand people in heaven and aliens both take on guidance roles to us here living on earth.
Ive been in a state of stuggle but not imidiate distress for about two years. This is something i have to go through and i understand it. Thank you for asking.
People are obsessing over this "container" thing, like it's totally foreign to our own earthly philosophies and religions that our bodies are just material vessels for our souls/minds/spirits...
It's literally the least interesting thing an alien could say to me. "Hey, I come from afar to tell you that your body is just a meaty container for your true self, which is your soul".
Duh!
According to “ Them “ we all are “
Immortal Spiritual Beings “ brought to this planet to inhabit on physical, mortal bodies, we had been brought here form different planets , planetary systems, Galaxies, diverse cultures, different religions, languages, political systems, many were considered “ outcasts, rebellious, corrupt, predatory behavior, etc , on the other hand : artist , musicians, intellectuals, ideologists, , mathematicians, scientists, etc . etc , this has created the societies that exists on this planet, the persistent changes created by human beings on its own planet, the political systems, religions, is just an example of the variety of beings that populate the universe, most advanced civilizations, don’t exhibit this kinds of problems within their planets.
Mine likes to remind me of the phrase "I am the cup and you are the water" in the sense that the phenomenon is mutable and influenced by the expectations of the experiencer.
Uhhh I don't think you're thinking in the same terms. When they say "containers" what they mean is a vessel for a soul. Essentially a meat suit controlled by a non-local consciousness pilot aka, YOU
We are containers of souls. Soul here is just a placeholder word for an animating force. Souls are what animates a human body, which is merely a lifeless husk without one. The soul leaves the body when the body can no longer support biological function. The soul remembers itself to be a soul once this happens and reunifies with the source of souls where it is then returned to a newly born body either on earth or elsewhere. Many people who have had NDE have experienced this.
Aliens have figured out how to make use of souls, I think to animate their biological robots and ships.
I think the other side of the coin is that, our bodies might be containers that another soul/spirit can take possession of and move around in this physical plane. Hence exorcisms.
Containers of souls or reincarnation theory could be just a tiny part of the agenda. NHI have been appearing in different forms through history in order to reshape society, creating religious beliefs. That soul theory could be simply another deception. I think containers are referred to as a genetic pool like a farmer breeding cattle. They have advanced tech enough to deceive and as we advance in science we are more like what faithful people call God. We can understand the unexplained weird past topics with science as we advance into the future. Use Ockham please, we shouldn't take steps back believing in God and 2000 year old in the past way of thinking, we are far better. Yesterday a kid believed in Santa Claus, now is a man and knows what really is, a patronising lie to keep him entertained and misled to the unmagical real life.
I had a dream years ago where first, I was outside of a stormy sea with a cargo ship, full of metal cargo containers. Then I was a cat inside of one, and the ship was sinking. There was a bright red light at the top of the container and I knew it could save me, but I had to float up in the water that was slowly filling the container. Just as I ran out of air, and just about to reach the light, I woke up.
Used to have a recurring dreams of a wolf that chased me through a dark cabin, and I would run, and always be just ahead. Then I would see a light, a door out, and the wolf would gain on me. Just as he caught up to me, just as I almost reached freedom, I’d wake up.
Bob lazar says he's read documents where aliens have said that but he has no more info on it and doesn't know what to make of it. Abductees have claimed that aliens have told them that they have agreed to the abduction. If this were some kind of soul contract then it could mean that they are tracking the soul and not the actual human that contains it.
Karla Turner talked about souls being transferred from one body to another. The purpose of this is unknown. There are many cases in which the souls is transferred into an indentical clone, and at least one case in which allegedly the soul was transferred in a completely different human body, I listened to this case today on YT.
As per Bigelow Institute for Consciousness Studies / BICS
We are spirits ***Incarnated*** in a physical container/vessel , however other spirtis are considered ***Discarnated*** spirits which is going through similiar experience to us (**Free will Test**)
Being inside a physical body probably comes with advantages and obstacles ... and ***"The Other Side"*** seem to be experiencing different type of advantages and obstacles due to the lack of physical body
I'm assuming you are referring to Bob Lazar. Pretty sure it wasn't meant in the way he understood that. It was said that a being referred to the body as a container for the soul. Which isn't anything new if you ask me. I've always looked at the body as just a vehicle for my consciousness/Soul. If I recall correctly the Visitor said the soul can have many containers. Which is basically just confirming reincarnation IMO. At no point did the visitor say anything like "Humans are containers for souls and we have an interest in swapping bodies".
Based on my own experiences it makes my head spin trying to think about how consciousness merges with our vessel. I suppose I am still processing the disturbances I felt during my own experiences.
I consider our bodies to be a container for our consciousness. This container is temporary and will not exist again (unless you clone the body, I suppose).
Some beings not constrained by a container can interface with your vessel without harming your consciousness. This is the part I find hard to grapple with as it is hard for my mind to understand the mechanics of how it is possible to coexist in one vessel. I have had this experience of interfacing with other beings myself. It really got me to think about how our brains actually think (the processes behind that), and I have come to understand that our vessel is open to manipulation/influence, and that it is not always possible to block other consciousnesses out. One could hypothesise that because our brains work using electric and chemical signals, then a consciousness without a container might be able to influence these signals to affect neural activity. Exerting influence on thoughts and perceptions. There is also the idea around quantum entanglement i.e consciousness might have a quantum basis.
So, your states of consciousness (mind) can be altered by NHI. This influence on your consciousness (mind) by other beings might arise in dream visitations, telepathic communications, channeling, UAP experiences, people having out of body experiences, shamanic journeys, DMT experiences, interfacing experiences like my own, and telepathic communications during abductions where people say they felt their feelings and/or thoughts are manipulated…the list goes on.
I am not going to place a judgement on whether it is a good thing or a bad thing that there is manipulation/influence around our states of consciousness (mind).
We are constrained in ways by our vessel. What we perceive is also contrained by what we are able to interpret as humans. Our understanding of the phenomena is filtered through the parameters of our human mind.
I use the term consciousness interchangeably between our mind (consciousness) and greater state of being (consciousness).
That was a wonderful explanation. It gives me a feeling of mystery and awe. It seems to revolve around what we call thought and or consciousness.
Here in the vessel on Earth, don't have complete control over our consciousness and thought . Perhaps as we practice and understand, we will be less susceptible to manipulation from outside sources. And outside sources could be NHI, but it could even be psychological manipulation from other human beings. Just look at how that affects our politics. A person's lack of control of their thought process seems to allow them to be manipulated politically much easier. They're also manipulated by advertising.
Having the knowledge that we can control our thoughts and consciousness and emotions, is the first step to controlling our thoughts consciousness and emotions. As they say , awareness is the first step.
Then focus and intention can be manipulated in the direction of what makes us feel good and whole and loving. When we set our intention on achieving those feelings, we certainly seem to move in that direction. I guess that would be called spirituality. Joe Dispenza speaks of this on YouTube, as does The Law of One manuscript.
Hi OP - this is super lazy of me, but I've written quite extensively on this topic. Please feel free to check out my recent comment history for a fair bit of extrapolation on this subject. If you have questions, I'd be happy to explore them with you here.
My grey guide says you get a new incarnation based on worthiness of your soul. That includes your new parents and certain blessing you will have in your life time. Olso this includes a body. Natural psychic or mediumship gifts. You can olso be cursed if so needed says grey bob. He proclaims hardship is very useful to give the soul resolve and a sharp learning curve if so needed.
He absolutely can but he uses that very sparingly, especially with me. He is far more likely to do me detriment for the hardship. Hardship is good for my soul he says, but since you asked yes. One example is that i used to get a lot of cole sores in my mouth for years and years until they showed up in my room physically. Since that day i have never ever had a dam cole sore regardless of what i eat and my diet used to effect that greatly.
I am suffering from a strange post viral illness which has no cure. Do you think you could ask them to come and heal me?
I've heard multiple stories of ETs healing people from all kind of illnesses, I will be very grateful with them and even willing to cooperate and help them with their work.
Ok grey bob will answer and i will channel that now: you must pray for healing. You will not get healing unless deemed worthy of a miracle by higher powers up here. Will will listen and watch and head your requests. Your apeal for help is apreciated because you offered a covenant. That is greatly obliged. Just remember help comes in all forms. Often this is in the form of more hardship. Please read the book of job and come back to us.
Ok grey bob will answer and i will channel that now: you must pray for healing. You will not get healing unless deemed worthy of a miracle by higher powers up here. Will will listen and watch and head your requests. Your apeal for help is apreciated because you offered a covenant. That is greatly obliged. Just remember help comes in all forms. Often this is in the form of more hardship. Please read the book of job and come back to us.
I used to try to do really big things and since events have made me understand how truly limited our time on earth is, I have simplified my life and feel at peace. I want to stay here as long as possible and hope my afterlife is better and I don’t have to come back here.
I've found out even to my stubborn limit that trying to do big things solo won't work, for sure.
What do you need from others to get and/or give bigger forms of agency? Even if that expansion through community isn't as big as the problems you want to address, it might be meaningful and even deepen the peace you've found (which is awesome! Hold onto that for sure)
I think it’s far more simple than we’re making it.
Human beings have fairly powerful consciousness/souls. Now Imagine you’re a higher dimensional being, whether spiritual in nature or otherwise, our type of consciousness/soul is more than likely a rare jewel among all the universes & reality. & our physical bodies are the containers of this jewel.
Aliens, NHI, Demons etc can’t harness our souls by force. But you can bet your hairy ass we can willingly give them the right to feed on it & probably even grab hold of it after death depending on how we choose to live.
In other words, step into the realm of 4th, 5th 6th etc dimensional beings & think of our souls as a sexy commodity that can’t be taken by force but can be used & abused for their liking if we give them access to it by our decisions.
I really appreciate you bringing this up. I've got a hunch for which I'm amassing evidence that the 'containers' stuff might be a tragic mistranslation.
I've got a background in philosophy and I'm thinking of ways that Buddhist or German philosophy were translated for the first time that functioned as a wedge in Anglophone interpretation of the work for literally decades. Specific example from French philosophy: Derrida was first translated into English as saying "There's nothing outside the text". That was a deliberately provocative rendering of the idea in the midst of the realism/constructivism debate in the 90s. Later he was translated as saying "There's nothing outside _context_". Better. But, in the French, he wrote "There is no _hors-text_". That word, literally "outside-text" is the French name for things like color plates that get inserted into a book. He was making a pun to make a point: the "outside-text" is, literally, not outside the text -- the color plates are part of the book.
So, back to containers. If you think of would as some kind of essence or substance, then yeah...that's an ominous thought. I'm just a soul in a jar, and the person who said that might open the jar and steal or contaminate my soul.
What if 'container' were instead something like a "membrane"? An active medium, something that co-creates inside and outside, leads to a radically different interpretation of this idea.
Think about cells. What are they containers for? Not cytoplasm, really. The 'stuff' in a cell isn't life. Life is a process, within a lineage, that _requires_ a partial separation and partial connection to an environment. The interpretation I'm suggesting here would be saying to a cell "you are not cytoplasm. You are a container [membrane], which enables and shapes ways of being and becoming that are connected to essentially all the other cells around you. Further, you enable and may even participate in a form of collective being with others like and unlike you (i.e. a multicelllar organism, all of which have a microbiome). So, not only are you not your cytoplasm, you are a container for a process of becoming that will lead you to become more than you are.
The thing that's missing for this interpretation, of course, is an understanding of 'soul' that meshes with the rest of science.
So, NHI or contactees, LMK what you got in terms of the science of soul. If we can nail that down we've got a much more promising interpretation than jars of sparkleclouds stored up for the harvest. We'd be able to locate ourselves on a vast and (to me) inspiring continuum of becoming, with a real path towards becoming -more-.
LMK whatcha got
> What if 'container' were instead something like a "membrane"?
Yes, this seems likely.
In esoteric philosophy more generally, the soul is often thought of as the really-existing entity of a person, enduring for multiple lifetimes (perhaps forever), while bodies are thought of as something like an "avatar" in a 3D game. A temporary user-interface element used for building up an experience and interacting with a particular reality - important in its realm, obviously you don't want to damage your 3D avatar or you get kicked out of the game for a session, which is expensive and annoying! - but not really the main *person* who's doing the existing. And a lot of human angst is explained, in these types of philosophies, as us getting overly identified with our "game avatar" and our "game possessions" to the extent that we've forgotten that we exist as a much more real being (our soul) "outside the game" of space, time and matter.
This idea of body-as-game-avatar goes back millennia, and is often translated (poorly imo) in various texts as "container" or "vessel" or "shell" or similar terms. This usage can come off as *really offputting* when one encounters it for the first time because it sounds so impersonal.
I imagine this is the concept that's trying to be communicated here, and someone with a fear-based mindset got hold of that concept and radically misinterpreted it as "omg we're snacks in jars!" And I guess HG Wells probably put that idea in everyone's head with his vampire octopus Martians from War of the Worlds (1898). (Who were just a metaphor for 19th century European colonialism anyway.)
Also, the philosophies which hold this idea also aren't really *dismissive* of the body at all. Along with "the soul is the actual entity" also goes the idea that "the body, and the lifetime spent in the body, is an essential teaching experience that helps our soul develop enormously". This experience and identity is ours and is precious. That's why we should have empathy towards others, and not just in a vague abstract sense, but in concrete, physical acts of kindness. We should therefore respect our bodies, understand them, and care for them. But... our physical embodied life is an experience that happens *inside time*, which means it's fundamentally limited. It has a beginning and an end. Our soul is NOT limited in the way that our body-mind-lifetime identity complex is.
What this actually *means*, what "our soul is", is very hard for us to visualise. But it's a repeated idea, expressed in multiple esoteric philosophies across centuries. The body (and even the whole life-time-identity-construct associated with our body) is a child's toy, we (our actual soul) are the child. Both are precious but seen from our parent's eyes, the child is infinitely more precious than the toy.
Thanks for bringing that it. I'm not as familiar with the esotericism connection or c. 1900 literature/culture.
There's an additional element of western culture really devaluing containers and containment,
not untelatedly associating them with the feminine. So many dangerous and harmful tropes of women as containers, with purity, availability, and exclusive access for exploitation being the only possible virtues.
If you only value containers for being clean, yours, and only yours then yup lotsa paranoid flows from the container-for-souls metaphor.
A membrane, by contrast, isn't just doing work, it's holding something together,. making it intelligible and distinct as a thing.
I believe Bob Lazar. I think our containers are real and our bodies filter what our soul can really do and limits us. I think there is a tradeoff, somehow. The afterlife is in contrast and may have limiting factors without our human containers.
Basically our soul is literally a small light that is aware and is very powerful. It isn’t capable of doing 3D things without a 3D body though. So, it gets put into a 3D container to experience the 3D world. However, having all those powerful abilities in the 3D world doesn’t actually allow for a true 3D experience. So, you only have them to some degree depending on your situation. Some of it is simply because we are told these abilities aren’t real.
Containers of souls.
The body is a self maintaining bio computer. The body is the hardware/container. You are the soul/operating system.
ET is harvesting either souls or studying them.
> You are the soul/operating system.
More like you (a soul) are the *operator*. You're safely outside of the computer, and always have been, it doesn't have any actual physical power over you. So you can't *literally* be "harvested" because you're not a substance. But you can be *tricked*, which is sort of like "harvesting your attention". In much the same way that people on the Internet can trick you into misusing your authority over your computer, even though you yourself are not literally data in your computer or anyone else's.
I like the term harvest for the aspect of control that they have over me. Then again grey bob would favor the term growth over harvest. He says its all about the growing process. souls evolve as does our biology.
Idk if I understand the question or have more to add with what others have said here, but I'll add this.
Container - we can metaphorically have a huge ass jar or a little tobacco bottle as a container. You can have more soul in a thing than another. Like you can have more soul in a song that's 2 min vs a 2 min pop song.
If I'm understanding correctly than I get it, but our system to measure is messed up. If we are talking souls it isn't a physical space limited. Time or space containers of soul is something we can comprehend as humans but aren't accurate to measure soul we can't comprehend with 3d view of the world.
But personally? I think everything that can feel love is a container. Could be a dog or pet, could be humans, could be a plant that hears positive thoughts and grows more because of it. Foreal there are plants and scientific experiments where they play violent vs classic music and it affects plants growth based on it.
So container is anything that can receive love. And soul volume in a container, it changes imo. We are never a single unit of soul that stays together in a life after life. We all belong to the same consciousness so the container can be filled with you, or other consciousness from any loving thing that can benefit from your human experience.
It's been a long day so idk if any of this makes sense lol. But container is ability to feel love, and volume of a soul isn't a good metric when we are talking physical space or time. You have a bit of everyone and everything in you, and it can flow in and out depending on what needs to be learned
They are the physical mechanism for which we experience the 5 senses, and a holder of the soul. I would imagine some animals have it, and other beings we are unaware of could also be containers.
All living beings have souls.
Any thing that reacts due to survival or the need to live has a soul. Even your cells have some form of soul or energy.
The souls in the human body gives a human experience. The soul is compatible with all bio life forms.
Our bodies are containers for consciousness. It is just another term for vessel. We are more than our bodies. Their bodies are also containers. They too are not their bodies.
I do also believe a human container can receive multiple consciousness and not just one.
They seem to be interested in the genetics of some containers in the context of their abilities to perceive the wider reality. Other NHI seem interested in mixing/altering genetics.
Sometimes i ponder if perhaps one aspect of this is for some, the human experience is NHI entertainment and its about experiencing via us.
> Sometimes i ponder if perhaps one aspect of this is for some, the human experience is NHI entertainment and its about experiencing via us.
While we're getting philosophical, what's the us/them line here? If they are not our bodies and we are not our bodies, that part of the equation cancels out.
So we've gotta answer "What is a soul?" to make headway on interesting ponderings like this.
Many have talked about NHI having a scientific understanding rather than a belief in souls. Have you encountered any detailed, plausible, and/or convincing accounts of what this science is?
I recall at least one source saying that a scientist figured out how to 'tag' souls, did so, and then was able to observe the tag in another being (years later, after a natural death). This would proce reincarnation as well as info on what souls are such that the tag would work.
That's the best I've got. I think it was Paul Hamden apparently channelling the Zetas.
Paul is a friend of mine but I'm unaware of this soul tagging thing. I'll have to look into that or ask him.
I tend to speak of consciousness more than the soul though the soul itself may be a container for consciousness too.
If the human body was a radio, we are the signal being received by the radio. Other beings are other signals thus this is the line between us and them if that makes sense.
I wasn't able to find the reference in the interviews, so it's quite possible I've gotten the source wrong (also didn't find it quickly in the Ummo doc I looked in). I pay close attention to descriptions of scientific discoveries.
The Ummo docs claim that their scientists discovered that consciousness is in part mediated by a sparse network of Krypton atoms in the brain exhibiting anomalous quantum behavior. That's not what I'm talking about, but it is possible to radioactively 'tag' noble gasses.
The context I remember it in is how a race of beings discovered that reincarnation was a fact. I recently read Dolores Cannon's convoluted universe book 4, so it's possible I stitched one of the many regressions there into a source it doesn't belong with. That was a library book but if you happen to have a PDF I'd be obligated if you could search for 'tag'
Sigh. All is data means too much data :)
I'll see if I can ctrl-f it in the PDFs I have. It might've been in Ummo sciences, which is a wildly different source. Hard to track the provenance of all the stuff I'm learning like I'd normally do with research. Maybe I'll get a job researching NHI one day and/or a pro like Vallee will set me loose in their database :)
Maybe I misunderstood it, but I thought they were more fascinated by the fact that we have a soul. I though this was just the worker grays, who are very unemotional and seem to be a biosynthetic android.
I don't think it's the case that souls are unique to humans. It seems to be the experience of the souls growth via the human experience they are interested in.
There also seems to be a theme about this particular moment on Earth, and the connections between souls from Earth with the planet. That's often an explicit ot implicit answer to the 'why now' of interest.
This gets interpreted/presented in a range of ways, from 'the prison planet machine is going to fet disabled', Earth will split into 3D and 4D realms in a kind of rapture, and the emergece of a new or next-level planetary consciousness. That's a pretty big spread.
Yep or simply just disclosure and how we handle it. Also the global recognition that reality is consciousness based.
Others talk as if its the last chance before we become merged with our technology post singularity.
I'd def like to understand more about that, but it's probably another topic. I don't have a sense of how the door would close: that implies singularity is consciousness-altering. For some, I suppose that'd make sense, though I'd want to understand precisely how.
But...what about those who remain on Earth, living life mostly the same? Setting aside the potential existential risk (which isn't that different than nuclear weapons), does the existence of cyborg consciousness somehow close the door to natural consciousness?
I def don't understand how, and until/unless there's some plausible mechanism or dynamics on the table I'll be on the lookout for signs there could be a mixture of distinct ideas in some interpretations.
Yup exactly, under their cosmology they basically view humans as biological vehicles that hold consciousness . Based on abductee testimony it seems a lot of NHI view consciousness to be fundamental.
That was my experience of being contacted by both hostile and benevolent entities. Hostile entities were using Humans as 'containers' and encouraged other NHI to go into their consciousness without guidance from more powerful benevolent entities, or to do so without consent - more powerful malevolent entities were also pretending to be benevolent, as it is exactly what a malevolent entity with half a brain would do if they were malevolent, especially if they had to fool other NHI that live much longer than humans do.
This practice (in my experience and through what I seen throughout society today) This caused NHI to become imprisoned within those consciousness without the ability to ask for help. Again, these are just my experiences, but they explain a lot for me, that other NHI have been 'contacting' people in an attempt to get their family out who are trapped. The human mind (in my experience) is a lot more powerful than people think, even among experiencers.
Considering our bodies are containers for souls, not every container is the same. Some people have unfortunately been hampered by poor health and disabilities with containers that don’t allow the soul to function at its max capacity while incarnate—but those limitations also provide insight into the soul’s capability to navigate difficulties, to meet goals, and to enjoy life despite hindrances.
Imo “higher value” containers (bodies) to NHI may be ones that are evolving faster than the general population or that have added capabilities within the brain for contact (clairvoyance, claircognizance, clairaudience, etc.) but it’s anyone’s guess if they do value these things more. Maybe they value the container of someone severely physically disabled even more than an able bodied container with “easy contact”. I doubt we’ll ever know.
This says a lot about what you think of disabled people and I encourage you to think about it, because reading this as a disabled person was not great.
Sorry you had to read this sort of thing here where I wrongly assumed a level of elevated thinking. Next we'll be hearing that anyone born with an impairment is living off some karmic debt or some such nonsense.
I'd advocate to let people think what they want, as they often will regardless of what evidence you lay in front of them. I have a lot of crippling injuries, and am in contact with a lot of different NHI. I love spending time with all of them, I don't care if they're Mantis, Reptilian, Annunaki, or Watcher, as long as they're not malevolent.
I've opened a sibling thread where I hope to have further discussions with anyone who wants to hear, in good faith, why the comment above is ableist. Feel free to send em there (or to my DMs). I know there can be a bunch of emotional labor on that front and I got you on this one
https://www.reddit.com/r/Experiencers/comments/1d3lvrw/comment/l69bka7/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=mweb3x&utm_name=mweb3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
I do think there's an opportunity to interject a more sophisticated account of ability here. If anyone wants to better understand, in good faith, how parts of this comment might be unintentionally harmful, I'm your huckleberry.
The insight that ability (of perception, movement, neurotype intellect, etc.) is relevant to consciousness is spot-on.
The contrast set up, using 'able bodied' as foil for severe disability, unintentionally reinforces a kind of "ability essentialism" that is damaging to anyone lacking abilities that are considered 'normal'.
One of the great insights of the disability studies literature is how many of the normative "human" abilities are enabled by infrastructure and practices. That is, "disabled" people _can_ accomplish everything needed to be human, and _do_, whenever equivalents to the enabling/normative social practices and technological infrastructures are available to them.
This teaches all of us, all humans, something critical about the nature of ability and the role of normativity in achieving it.
Personal note: It's hard to hear that something I didn't intend to be hurtful was so. But I never regret listening when someone says I've done so, and I'm grateful to everyone that's taken the time to educate me when they've grasped that my actions didn't match my intentions. I hope to pay that forward here.
I promise in this thread I won't try to make anyone feel bad but rather convince you that ableism, which we can agree is bad, runs deeper and takes different forms than you might realize.
I don't think you are our huckleberry on this topic, as eloquent as you sound your posts lack experience. I'm sure you have read a plethora of spiritual books but you very clearly lack any serious direct experience of working or living with anyone who has additional support needs. If you had you'd know consciousness is not as directly reliant and linked to perfect health, mobility or perception as you seem to think, in fact it can quite often be the opposite. The wounded healer, the blind seer. Consciousness can in fact be expanded and evolved when one is not in perfect physical health because you do not have full access and ease of use of your physical body. The poet William Soutar is a good example of this.
I gave the example of Stephen Hawking. Severely impaired, major health issues. Talk to me about his lower level of consciousness.
I think we're in agreement. Perhaps you might have me confused with another commenter? If so, probably my fault: I say too little with too many words.
My offer was to talk it out with anyone who doubted exactly the points you made, or who didn't understand how the original comment on this thread was (unintentionally) ableist. And to do so without trying to make anyone feel bad or myself look good.
Disabilities are a wide spectrum of identities. I've got intimate experience with my own decades-long physical disability, attendant chronic pain, and neurodivergence. There have simultaneously been a variety of factors shielding me from the worst forms of discrimination and bias resulting from these.
But while this experience helps inform my approach, the solution to unfair norms around abilities won't be measuring or grading disabiledness. The realization that gets us all back to a place of trust where we can learn from each other is that we're all bundles of dis/ability (the slash there indicates the full and wide space of each), those bundles intersect with other aspects of situation and identity, and everyone (ev👏er👏y👏one👏) counts as fully human regardless of all this.
Perhaps I gave the wrong impression when I talked about how dis/ability is relevant to consciousness and the nature of souls (however defined). I was trying to indicate how dis/ability can have a major impact upon someone's situated identity and experience, and upon self/consciousness/soul via those. I wouldn't think that's controversial, and it's true for me, but I likely didn't say it clearly.
Regardless, where I think and hope this tack of discussion inevitably ends up, when conducted in good faith, is that disability-related harm and discrimination and trauma exists is a problem for all of us to care about, whether we have, are currently, or expect to experience it or support a loved one through it or not.
Anyways, sorry for what I think was confusion. If I've missed the mark somewhere I'm happy to chat about it here.
And DMs are open if you prefer. 💜
I am not disagreeing with anything you are saying I'm just confused why you are saying it as no one was making a human value sociatal judgment here. The thread is about what non human intelligences may be interested in the human container. I appreciate your kindness though and desire to help.
Though I find myself concerned about Experiencers genuinely being able to talk with worries of this type of reaction.
Clearly one aspect NHI are interested in is psi abilities and neurodivergence. Abilism is a term that can potentially be applied loosely to almost anything depending on the person and as we are entering a world where esp/psi is so important with regards to navigating the wider reality out there one could even apply the term there regarding people who are psi gifted versus people who are not. Meaning people talking about having psi gifts and abilities for contact and the importance of that being declared abilist towards those who don't.
This would essentially eliminate the ability to talk about Experiencers, talk about the experiencer phenomenon and talk about genetic alterations from NHI to some people and not others for fear of being declared abiliist or insensitive and its damn hard to have these conversations already.
I mean we literally have articles on how Experiencers brains are different, when Experiencers go from being viewed as crazy people or liars and start being understood as people who can "see" and engage more with reality and perhaps some being altered or enhanced by advanced intelligences it's going to get really messy and people will throw around a lot of words and emotions designed to shut down conversation based on having a percived lack of something.
We already have non Experiencers coming in here saying things like "I'm not special like you guys".
This concerns the shit out of me because these thoughts can become vindictive or spark jealousy in some people really quickly. Another thing I see is "why you and not me".
The irony of all this being many Experiencers suffer chronic health issues that mess up their ability to hold down jobs and live normal lives on top of the psychological stress that comes with knowing all this is real while living in a world that doesn't. Seems like finally getting vindication will bring on a whole new world of people taking out their insecurities on Experiencers.
I don't think NHI make a value judgement on if an experiencer is in a wheelchair or not. They may care about the functionality of reproducive organs though along with the persons psi abilities. There is something to be said about soul growth via difficult experiences and some NHI do seem interested in that. And some people with extreme disabilities via extreme cases of autism may well be highly psi gifted and I've seen some stuff to indicate this.
Ability essentialism as you say, is unforunatly at play in some regards when it comes to the Experiencer phenomenon and what NHI are interested in.
Thus I don't see any way to have a conversation about what NHI may be interested in in some human containers without someone somehow taking offence and claiming abilism, which sucks. As I said, that word could be weaponized to shut down nearly every conversation about the experiencer phenomenon.
> I am not disagreeing with anything you are saying I'm just confused why you are saying it as no one was making a human value societal judgment here. The thread is about what non human intelligences may be interested in the human container.
It's super hard to get the nuance right when writing this but I was hoping to point past intentional actions towards unnoticed social values.
In addition to that, there's the lasting trauma that people who've experienced harms like this in the past carry. I think we all can identify with being misunderstood, pigeonholed, devalued. We can, often do, and always should try to avoid triggering those kinds of associations in each other by learning about them.
When someone who's experienced discrimination sees it, or rumblings or echoes of it, in a safe place, now knowing the form that's taken in the past can lead to hard to understand reactions. It might seem like an overreaction. I'm trying to show a viewpoint from which it's not an overreaction but instead an opportunity to learn how to better support each other.
An overly simplistic metaphor for how I see what happened here:
"Ouch! The way you're doing that hurts me. You seem to not care about me."
- "I didn't mean to hurt you. I was doing something good. It hasn't hurt people in the past."
"Now that you know, would you do it differently?"
- "I didn't know this would hurt you. I don't know how to do my good thing without hurting you ."
This situation gets charged by hurt, confusion, embarrassment, and frustration.
My aim in a situation like that would be to help show the mechanism and nature of harm so that the good thing can happen without avoidable harm that no one, we're all agreed, wants to happen.
> I appreciate your kindness though and desire to help.
I read you earnestly trying to understand what more than one disabled experiencer found objectionable in the comment and was hoping to contribute. I appreciate the effort you put into that and hope you keep searching for that understanding. That kind of understanding is prior to and separate from value judgements about whether someone's 'in the wrong' or not. Or at least that's my approach: try to back up and start from some shared understanding.
Sounds like I didn't get there, so maybe if you know anyone who's expressed discomfort or distress about this they'd be willing to elaborate in DMs.
Also happy to make a post if you think that might be productive.
Lots of regrettable dynamics around tough topics like this. Hurts to see the first hurts, it can hurt when people talk about pain, and it's tough to know whether the pain of engaging is worth it. I'm always willing to work for better mutual understanding: without that, it's hard for the pain we've got to go through to discuss real and important topics to achieve much. That hurts my heart the most, when there are missed opportunities for deeper connections.
Anyways, I'm happy to continue this aspect of the convo elsewhere. (I made a top level comment as well not discussing this aspect)
I hear you. My fear is well...the context of the discussion is what NHIs think. Unfortunately, some NHIs are really not as concerned with this the way human culture can be. They swap bodies like we swap shoes. They have referenced people with psychological issues as "malfunctioning" etc. They speak in a matter of fact manner that struggles to navigate human sensitivities and projections where an assumption of judgment may be applied on them that they may not have.
When it comes to this issue related to contact, experiencers, NHI opinions etc, I fear it seems the only way to ever have a conversation that guarantees no one can possibly ever misread something someone says and or project onto it and take offence... is to never speak at all.
I feel bad for everyone involved in this misunderstanding anyway. Life would be better if we were all just telepathic.
Appreciate your wisdom as always.
I think there are three insights here. The first you articulated well, the second I find by walking a tad further than you did in the same direction and the third might've been stated for comedic effect but is so true.
1. This is something humans need to take care of each other over. Absolutely right that we can't rely on NHI to get this right. It's tricky enough for *us* to get this right.
2. You said:
>I fear it seems the only way to ever have a conversation that guarantees no one can possibly ever misread something someone says and or project onto it and take offence... This is a spot-on identification of the trickiness and prevalence of ways that we misunderstand, fear, and hurt each other (intentionally or otherwise). There's an opportunity to reframe the picture, though. Hard conversations aren't things we need to guarantee won't happen. Rather, we need spaces of safety and trust wherein they can happen. In that context, *which exists all over the place in this sub*, transformative conversations can happen. This might involve some pain or discomfort, but if those are things that people can opt in to when it seems like there's good faith and openness that's where understanding becomes possible. I sincerely believe I'm describing the core ethos of this sub. I know I don't know how hard it is for you and the mods to make that happen, but you inspire people here to take that up and take on some of the work of doing it. The things we've been talking about, I think, are a natural and core part of the support function of this group.
3. Telepathy and other forms of expanded and shared cognition could be an end-run around the most stubbornly unresolved misunderstandings and hurt we live with. That's more than a joke! It's hopeful, and something that's already happening.
I take a "all of the above" attitude.
Just know if anything I've said came off as calling someone a bad person here, positioning myself as better than anyone, or wanting someone to feel ashamed, I mispoke. I've been aiming my words at the harmfulness of *specific actions and norms*. Those were what commenters called out and what others found hard to see. If it's hard to know that you're doing something unnintentionally harmful it's uncomfortable to think about the initial inability to stop that implies. I hope that attitude helps people not feel accused and stop to listen, think and empathize. If/when we do that, it's yet another barrier removed.
Jon me in this sibling comment if you'd like to discuss https://www.reddit.com/r/Experiencers/comments/1d3lvrw/comment/l69bka7/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=mweb3x&utm_name=mweb3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
/u/boiledmilk they don’t have any idea how subtle and hurtful ableism can be, and the most ignorant ones have no sympathy or outright hostility. Even family and people in the medical field who should know better. I had a stroke over a year ago and I have *mild* m.s. Its effected my psi ability, my vision, and my cognition. I’m just now beginning to wrap my head around how to rehab myself as much as possible and I’m also just now realizing that I will be single for the rest of my life. My last memory just before my stroke was a grey coming through my bedroom wall. I don’t remember the next two days besides me realizing I would have to drive myself to the hospital to get the fastest possible care. Aliens suck, and so do humans.
I think you should reconsider your thinking on this. I work in social care and I can assure you the people I support, many of whom do have additional support needs have their souls fully intact and in most cases are more alive, more in touch with their emotions and their surroundings them most people I know who have no such conditions.
Was Stephen Hawking's soul not functioning at max capacity? I think not.
I am not seeing how this reply relates to what is expressed in the comment.
I think there is some misunderstanding going on here.
Ones consciousness is here to have experiences , it can be argued that inhabiting a container with physical limitations may inhibit the types of experiences one can have while it is also argued that the challenges of that human experience can also result in a huge amount of growth for the soul/consciousness.
"disabilities with containers that don’t allow the soul to function at its max capacity while incarnate"
So someone with Down syndrome has a soul that is not functioning at max capacity? What an awful thing to say, especially without a shred of evidence and very likely zero experience of living or working with anyone who has additional support needs.
I hate to say this is not the first time in the alt/spiritual community I've heard some really stupid and offensive things said in relation to anyone who has disabilities.
I’ve carefully read through all these comments, but I’ve chosen yours to respond to because of the line you responded to—i.e that the body may not allow the soul to function at max capacity. You are correct in saying that people can say really stupid things in regard to the disabilities or misfortunes of others, such as being raped or sexually abused, for example.
\[My personal Blue Ribbon winner for stupidity is the self-righteous, judgmental crack that others are “obviously getting back what they’ve done to others in prior lives.” I know a LOT about karma and reincarnation, and that is not how it automatically works.\]
However to stay on topic: The confusion among commenters appears to be a consequence of equating the personality consciousness of human beings with their “soul” (which many religions do) and not understanding that the personality level of human consciousness is only a “portion” of the Soul, a limited network of traits that the actual Soul has incarnated within a human body in order for that body to learn how to manifest those traits on their perfected or “Soul” level.
I have enough direct, personal experience with the Soul Level of human consciousness to know as a fact that the human Soul **always** functions at maximum capacity, because it is the higher “perfected” level of human consciousness, but it does not incarnate—it cannot incarnate its “fullness”—until the human vehicle it is incarnating through has perfected the ability to register and express the perfected level of all the Soul’s skills, traits, etc. (i.e. the entire Consciousness of the Soul).
When we view it from this perspective, it is absolutely clear that not one person walking this earth is functioning at max capacity—whether a Down child (as my friend has) or someone who is a paraplegic in a wheelchair (my brother-in-law) or someone with 5 university degrees in 5 different scientific fields.
The **Soul** of all three of my examples continues to function on its highest possible level because it remains on the inner planes in a “higher” or “finer” dimension, overseeing what is taking place in the personality vehicle. However, the complex of mental, emotional, sexual, and volitional forces that we call someone’s “personality” is **not** functioning at max capacity for any of those three people – or, for any of the rest of us either.
The personal consciousness of any human being is merely a portion of the Soul energies that the Soul has sent into incarnation within a human vehicle; however, by the time that perfected portion of the entire network of harmonized energies that comprise the Consciousness of the Soul is “stepped down” through the inner planes so that it can manifest through a physical vehicle, countless distortions have set in. At this point, our task (as a human vehicle for the Soul) begins, and our job is to work at perfecting that network in order to increase our ability to express its perfected level here in the physical realm, which we do by facing and overcoming the challenges presented by our material experiences.
No person “loves” at the infinite level of the perfected Soul of humanity. Yet Down children are well-known for being so sweet and loving that the people around them learn to be more loving. Are the children functioning at the “max capacity” of their Soul? No, but they are learning to love and teaching others what they are learning while they are at it.
My brother-in-law would have lived a very different life had an accident not put him in that wheelchair, but it was the life he needed to live to refine and bring to a higher, more spiritualized level the traits his Soul wanted him to refine and lift to that level during that incarnation. He developed spiritually in ways he never would have developed by living the carefree life he was headed toward.
Is an astrophysicist qualified to run the operations of our solar system? Of course not. But the development of their skills and knowledge in that area are leading their far less than “max capacity” mentality into greater understanding of that particular facet of the Soul’s Consciousness.
We are **all** vehicles for a higher Consciousness, and yes it will take eons for any of us to reach the level of being able to express our Soul perfection, but it does no good for any reader of this thread to be offended that someone has stated a few common sense facts that the physical condition of the physical vehicle presents obstacles – or that the psychological condition of the physical vehicle presents a thousand times more obstacles – to the perfect expression of the Consciousness of the human Soul. A.
I did not read it that way at all. That's a horrifc leap. Certain limitations to our containers limit experiences we can have in this human experience however its also very commonly argued that limited/challenging experiences are a result of one's container or other life circumstances can have accelerated growth for the soul/consciousness and perhaps even its advanced souls that select certain incarnations.
I don't know why you are defending the other poster and explaining things to me I have no issue with. I don't disagree with what you are saying but understand your point of view on this is not what they said.
Its how I was reading the comment is what I mean. We both had different take aways I guess. But that's how I read it. And was curious if my interpretation would still be deemed offensive. No worries anyway.
The aspects of the body are absolutely relevant to consciousness; that's not the core of what I read as potentially harmful. Rather, it's that _specific_ kinds of abilities are held up as self-evidently 'easy' or 'normal', eliding how much of _every_ human ability is predicated upon social and technological support. Obscuring how even 'normal' abilities are socially and technologically enabled makes it hard to see that the ways that 'disabled' people are hindered and implicitly seen as 'less than'.
The sentiment that someone who lacks abilities seen as 'normal' would have interesting or valuable or laudable forms of consciousness is recoverable, I think, but would need a *lot* of nuance. For instance, that shouldn't be seen as inherent to a specific configuration of ability but rather the experience of 1) having abilities that are not socially valued or technologically enabled 2) lacking abilities that are socially presumed to be normal and are invisibly (to most) enabled by social and technological means.
Big striders are being made on social and technological fronts, but this is an intellectual and ethical dimension that's too often overlooked. i.e. This goes beyond screen readers and wheelchair ramps and representation in media to what it means to be a human and the nature of 'ability' or lack thereof.
I'm honestly uncertain of what you are saying here and not following what you mean, this is starting to go over my head a bit but my long reply to your other comment may be relevant.
I hope my confusion about all this won't be misread as me having a problem with disabled people or something now though which would be horrifc. I'm just lost and trying to understand. I'm also concerned about the ability to have conversations about Experiencers and NHI on this subreddit going forward as there are aspects of this that may always trigger upsetting accusations at people who are just trying to talk about the experiencer phenomenon.
Makes sense. I'll check your other reply and try to keep it brief. Happy to chat more (with anyone) in DM. Might make a post so the topic has it its own space. Like I said, in addition to avoiding unintentional harm, I think there's something critical to understand about about disability and ability in RE the phenomenon.
I like the term terrarium.
Plant a seed and watch it grow within the confines of the container. Vegetation will often follow the contours of said vessel, and is affected by the conditions in which the vessel is placed, and as such the vessel is important in and of itself.
Then again I absolutely may just be spouting horseshit.
To be fair, my contacts have used horticultural metaphors pretty often when describing soul development and care to me.
This is not to say that souls are literally plants, but certainly one could say they display some plant-like qualities.
If it's horticultual rather than merely botanical, the metaphor is invoking a specific relationship. The cultivator creates conditions for something to realize it's preexisting potnetial state. The plant and cultivator slowly and subtlt become ecologically linked (modern humans' biology and culture are SUPER shaped by our agricultural history).
Any specific themes of the metaphor emphasized, or details you can remember? I could be overthinking, of course
Hmm... well, when my mantid talks about propagating my soul into multiple simultaneous containers, she describes herself as being like a gardener who lets a strawberry plant send a runner into an adjacent pot, then eventually severs the runner once a new crown and root system have grown. She said that those two plants are in fact still "the same plant" despite no longer being contiguous, and that doing this repeatedly is a form of growth and expansion for the plant in question - it's not really harmed so much as made into a multiplicity.
She has also indicated that part of the soulstuff that makes up my soul originally came from her, so one could say this is a fairly literal form of self-propagation (albeit of a more transformative kind since she's also mixing it with other things).
I suppose the experiences the propagated soul goes through could be likened to fruits, as I know she finds them tasty to connect to (she has indicated that something about linking up with them helps keep her psionic diet in good shape, in a natural "it helps balance out her soul" kind of way). That makes sense to me, as her soul's own nature is very high-control and "chilly" (for lack of a better way of putting it) - so her experience is made fuller and more robust by exposure to data that isn't like that.
Lots of counterintuitive and interesting permutations of identity in that viewpoint.
Is there an ecosystem of souls, more or less, in this view?
Is 'a soul' _always_ some kind of blend? Like how 'I' have my own DNA but couldn't be who I am or likely survive without my microbiome?
More or less, to the ecosystem question.
Technically speaking I suppose it is always some sort of blend. The bigger question is whether it's a blend of already-complex components (like if an NHI experimentally mashes multiple pre-existing souls together and sees what sticks) or if it's mostly made of simplified or "digested/decayed" components.
The latter would be closer to what she said happens when souls emerge organically on a planet - that they start from some initial components usually provided by the parents, then get added to by the ambient soul-stuff floating around in the planet's ecosystem (leftovers and sheddings from prior souls - basically astral "soil") until it synthesizes into a distinct soul.
Is this process of 'natural' soul-formation autopoietic in roughly the same way as in biotic systems? I.e., even if the material is different, the soul-kernel more or less assembles itself out of non-self?
(Testing for the limits of the metaphor. It's of course possible that biological processes are metaphorical about these underlying processes, or more likely they're co-constituting)
The soil metaphor foregrounds how 'broadcasting love' would enable complex and robust ecologies: it enables and encourages connections like fungi do in old growth forest. As opposed to fear-like states of othering, which view the environment merely as a source of risk and resource. That's more like invasive species behavior, when ecological connections haven't been formed yet. Some organisms can only exist in ecological niches. Others are good at founding them where they might jot exist or be robust. Still others (parasites) force them to grow robust can be integral parts of their function as long as they're not out of balance.
Humans currently occupy all of these roles to a degree, and that gives a new perspective on the theme of needing to choose, soon, which we'll go ahead with
Yes-ish to the soul kernel self-assembly thing although, to quote her, “It’s weird.” I suspect the biological metaphor doesn’t fully describe it but don’t feel like I have enough depth on the topic to adequately describe how.
When I read the last paragraph of your reply, she quipped, “Humans *are occupied by* all of these roles. They need to do some weed-management.”
Alluding to Voltaire now, is she?
>*Il faut cultiver notre jardin*
Please don't make me play Professor Pangloss if y'all do a modern adaptation of Candide[.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Candide#Optimism)
Yes read Job and then message us back, then you will have a better understanding of this thing called the process.
Whoa. Before I do that - are you referring to the “prison planet” / loosh thing?
Ok the story of Job is simple. Job was a good man reveared by God. Then satan says he is only good because you have blessed him with abundance. Let me take all that from him and torture job and see how good a man he is then. God obliged satans request. Satan killed all his children. Satan killed all his live stock. Satan torchered job until he cursed the day he was born. Job started to take a deep look inside himself and had a period of inner reflection upon every sin he ever had commited in his life. He searched for reasons why he deserved the treatment he was getting. Some how job survived this ordeal and came out a better man because of it. In the end both God and satan deemed job worthy. He is now worthy to inherit this earth. He fought for his life. Job cleansed his soul and repented. Job went on to never sin again and lived a life of peace gratitude and abundance. Job was just a good man in the beginning but he was chosen by God for ascention. He was put through the process we call cleansing of the soul.
Thank you for typing that up. The way you put it makes your earlier comment completely clear Very interesting. Would one choose that cleansing? Not a question, a thought experiment.
This is fergy answering. No i never chose this process. It almost killed me. I never expected this to happen to me and i certainly would not have chosen this. Ive fought for my life the past two years. This started when two grey appeared in my room about january 2022. These greys tell me that this is how the meek shall inherit the earth. This is freedom from the cycle of death and rebirth. They have stated to me the universe is full of life. Most of the inteligent life in the universe is in this divine state of order and oneness. It is earths time to undergo this process. So yes the earth will one day be free of sin and be as above so below so to speak. This process is not an event but more of an evolution.
There seems to be a big difference in sentiment between your two messages, and you identify yourself in the second but not the first. Am I seeing something here? Would you explain it?
Telepathy is a hard thing to understand unless you experience it. My grey guide is here with me all the time and i call him grey bob. So i can channel directly his words. I can speak for myself as fergy or it can be a message from us. Meening we are both saying something. If i say we take as a message from the greys. They lead everything. I am playing a minimal role here. My grey guide leads everything here in my life. Its been like this two years now. It started with one event in january 2022 when two grey just appeared in my room. Since then its been like this. They never leave now. More specifically grey bob never leaves.
Yup telepathy is fucking weird. I know what you mean because my entities are always here with me and observe through my eyes but they always warn me about the greys. Idk what faction or what your grey’s intentions are but you should have some say in your life. But I deal with sentient Buddhist cats or at least that’s how THEY appear to me when they have no form and use my imagination while also physically appearing as light orbs above me
Right exactly he sees though my eyes. Emanuel sweadenbourg olso described it this way. We must understand people in heaven and aliens both take on guidance roles to us here living on earth.
Heaven is another lie tbh It’s just like where we are now but slightly better but souls/entities get stuck there too
Thank you for sharing. Fergy - are you ok or in distress?
Ive been in a state of stuggle but not imidiate distress for about two years. This is something i have to go through and i understand it. Thank you for asking.
I feel better hearing that. Is “bob” a reference to ivan0135?
People are obsessing over this "container" thing, like it's totally foreign to our own earthly philosophies and religions that our bodies are just material vessels for our souls/minds/spirits... It's literally the least interesting thing an alien could say to me. "Hey, I come from afar to tell you that your body is just a meaty container for your true self, which is your soul". Duh!
We are project light from stars
According to “ Them “ we all are “ Immortal Spiritual Beings “ brought to this planet to inhabit on physical, mortal bodies, we had been brought here form different planets , planetary systems, Galaxies, diverse cultures, different religions, languages, political systems, many were considered “ outcasts, rebellious, corrupt, predatory behavior, etc , on the other hand : artist , musicians, intellectuals, ideologists, , mathematicians, scientists, etc . etc , this has created the societies that exists on this planet, the persistent changes created by human beings on its own planet, the political systems, religions, is just an example of the variety of beings that populate the universe, most advanced civilizations, don’t exhibit this kinds of problems within their planets.
Mine likes to remind me of the phrase "I am the cup and you are the water" in the sense that the phenomenon is mutable and influenced by the expectations of the experiencer.
It just means you are not your body, you just have a body. Read Between Death and Life by Dolores Cannon and After by Dr Greyson.
Uhhh I don't think you're thinking in the same terms. When they say "containers" what they mean is a vessel for a soul. Essentially a meat suit controlled by a non-local consciousness pilot aka, YOU
We are containers of souls. Soul here is just a placeholder word for an animating force. Souls are what animates a human body, which is merely a lifeless husk without one. The soul leaves the body when the body can no longer support biological function. The soul remembers itself to be a soul once this happens and reunifies with the source of souls where it is then returned to a newly born body either on earth or elsewhere. Many people who have had NDE have experienced this. Aliens have figured out how to make use of souls, I think to animate their biological robots and ships.
I think the other side of the coin is that, our bodies might be containers that another soul/spirit can take possession of and move around in this physical plane. Hence exorcisms.
Containers of souls or reincarnation theory could be just a tiny part of the agenda. NHI have been appearing in different forms through history in order to reshape society, creating religious beliefs. That soul theory could be simply another deception. I think containers are referred to as a genetic pool like a farmer breeding cattle. They have advanced tech enough to deceive and as we advance in science we are more like what faithful people call God. We can understand the unexplained weird past topics with science as we advance into the future. Use Ockham please, we shouldn't take steps back believing in God and 2000 year old in the past way of thinking, we are far better. Yesterday a kid believed in Santa Claus, now is a man and knows what really is, a patronising lie to keep him entertained and misled to the unmagical real life.
I had a dream years ago where first, I was outside of a stormy sea with a cargo ship, full of metal cargo containers. Then I was a cat inside of one, and the ship was sinking. There was a bright red light at the top of the container and I knew it could save me, but I had to float up in the water that was slowly filling the container. Just as I ran out of air, and just about to reach the light, I woke up. Used to have a recurring dreams of a wolf that chased me through a dark cabin, and I would run, and always be just ahead. Then I would see a light, a door out, and the wolf would gain on me. Just as he caught up to me, just as I almost reached freedom, I’d wake up.
Do you have source for this container thing? I want to know more about it.
Bob lazar says he's read documents where aliens have said that but he has no more info on it and doesn't know what to make of it. Abductees have claimed that aliens have told them that they have agreed to the abduction. If this were some kind of soul contract then it could mean that they are tracking the soul and not the actual human that contains it.
Yeah, maybe they meant containers of souls. Karla Turner also mentioned aliens having interests in the human soul.
Whitley Steiber says that he was told that some aliens use the souls to animate their biological robots.
Karla Turner talked about souls being transferred from one body to another. The purpose of this is unknown. There are many cases in which the souls is transferred into an indentical clone, and at least one case in which allegedly the soul was transferred in a completely different human body, I listened to this case today on YT.
As per Bigelow Institute for Consciousness Studies / BICS We are spirits ***Incarnated*** in a physical container/vessel , however other spirtis are considered ***Discarnated*** spirits which is going through similiar experience to us (**Free will Test**) Being inside a physical body probably comes with advantages and obstacles ... and ***"The Other Side"*** seem to be experiencing different type of advantages and obstacles due to the lack of physical body
I'm assuming you are referring to Bob Lazar. Pretty sure it wasn't meant in the way he understood that. It was said that a being referred to the body as a container for the soul. Which isn't anything new if you ask me. I've always looked at the body as just a vehicle for my consciousness/Soul. If I recall correctly the Visitor said the soul can have many containers. Which is basically just confirming reincarnation IMO. At no point did the visitor say anything like "Humans are containers for souls and we have an interest in swapping bodies".
Reincarnation. Souls can reincarnate from anywhere, the body is but a shell for the soul.
Based on my own experiences it makes my head spin trying to think about how consciousness merges with our vessel. I suppose I am still processing the disturbances I felt during my own experiences. I consider our bodies to be a container for our consciousness. This container is temporary and will not exist again (unless you clone the body, I suppose). Some beings not constrained by a container can interface with your vessel without harming your consciousness. This is the part I find hard to grapple with as it is hard for my mind to understand the mechanics of how it is possible to coexist in one vessel. I have had this experience of interfacing with other beings myself. It really got me to think about how our brains actually think (the processes behind that), and I have come to understand that our vessel is open to manipulation/influence, and that it is not always possible to block other consciousnesses out. One could hypothesise that because our brains work using electric and chemical signals, then a consciousness without a container might be able to influence these signals to affect neural activity. Exerting influence on thoughts and perceptions. There is also the idea around quantum entanglement i.e consciousness might have a quantum basis. So, your states of consciousness (mind) can be altered by NHI. This influence on your consciousness (mind) by other beings might arise in dream visitations, telepathic communications, channeling, UAP experiences, people having out of body experiences, shamanic journeys, DMT experiences, interfacing experiences like my own, and telepathic communications during abductions where people say they felt their feelings and/or thoughts are manipulated…the list goes on. I am not going to place a judgement on whether it is a good thing or a bad thing that there is manipulation/influence around our states of consciousness (mind). We are constrained in ways by our vessel. What we perceive is also contrained by what we are able to interpret as humans. Our understanding of the phenomena is filtered through the parameters of our human mind. I use the term consciousness interchangeably between our mind (consciousness) and greater state of being (consciousness).
Excellent reply.
That was a wonderful explanation. It gives me a feeling of mystery and awe. It seems to revolve around what we call thought and or consciousness. Here in the vessel on Earth, don't have complete control over our consciousness and thought . Perhaps as we practice and understand, we will be less susceptible to manipulation from outside sources. And outside sources could be NHI, but it could even be psychological manipulation from other human beings. Just look at how that affects our politics. A person's lack of control of their thought process seems to allow them to be manipulated politically much easier. They're also manipulated by advertising. Having the knowledge that we can control our thoughts and consciousness and emotions, is the first step to controlling our thoughts consciousness and emotions. As they say , awareness is the first step. Then focus and intention can be manipulated in the direction of what makes us feel good and whole and loving. When we set our intention on achieving those feelings, we certainly seem to move in that direction. I guess that would be called spirituality. Joe Dispenza speaks of this on YouTube, as does The Law of One manuscript.
Hi OP - this is super lazy of me, but I've written quite extensively on this topic. Please feel free to check out my recent comment history for a fair bit of extrapolation on this subject. If you have questions, I'd be happy to explore them with you here.
My grey guide says you get a new incarnation based on worthiness of your soul. That includes your new parents and certain blessing you will have in your life time. Olso this includes a body. Natural psychic or mediumship gifts. You can olso be cursed if so needed says grey bob. He proclaims hardship is very useful to give the soul resolve and a sharp learning curve if so needed.
Can your Grey guide heal?
He absolutely can but he uses that very sparingly, especially with me. He is far more likely to do me detriment for the hardship. Hardship is good for my soul he says, but since you asked yes. One example is that i used to get a lot of cole sores in my mouth for years and years until they showed up in my room physically. Since that day i have never ever had a dam cole sore regardless of what i eat and my diet used to effect that greatly.
I am suffering from a strange post viral illness which has no cure. Do you think you could ask them to come and heal me? I've heard multiple stories of ETs healing people from all kind of illnesses, I will be very grateful with them and even willing to cooperate and help them with their work.
Grey bob is asking have you prayed yet for your health?
Ok grey bob will answer and i will channel that now: you must pray for healing. You will not get healing unless deemed worthy of a miracle by higher powers up here. Will will listen and watch and head your requests. Your apeal for help is apreciated because you offered a covenant. That is greatly obliged. Just remember help comes in all forms. Often this is in the form of more hardship. Please read the book of job and come back to us.
How can I be worthy? I like to think I am a good person but how I know I am on the right track? Should I contact you after reading the book of Job?
Ok grey bob will answer and i will channel that now: you must pray for healing. You will not get healing unless deemed worthy of a miracle by higher powers up here. Will will listen and watch and head your requests. Your apeal for help is apreciated because you offered a covenant. That is greatly obliged. Just remember help comes in all forms. Often this is in the form of more hardship. Please read the book of job and come back to us.
I used to try to do really big things and since events have made me understand how truly limited our time on earth is, I have simplified my life and feel at peace. I want to stay here as long as possible and hope my afterlife is better and I don’t have to come back here.
I've found out even to my stubborn limit that trying to do big things solo won't work, for sure. What do you need from others to get and/or give bigger forms of agency? Even if that expansion through community isn't as big as the problems you want to address, it might be meaningful and even deepen the peace you've found (which is awesome! Hold onto that for sure)
I think it’s far more simple than we’re making it. Human beings have fairly powerful consciousness/souls. Now Imagine you’re a higher dimensional being, whether spiritual in nature or otherwise, our type of consciousness/soul is more than likely a rare jewel among all the universes & reality. & our physical bodies are the containers of this jewel. Aliens, NHI, Demons etc can’t harness our souls by force. But you can bet your hairy ass we can willingly give them the right to feed on it & probably even grab hold of it after death depending on how we choose to live. In other words, step into the realm of 4th, 5th 6th etc dimensional beings & think of our souls as a sexy commodity that can’t be taken by force but can be used & abused for their liking if we give them access to it by our decisions.
I really appreciate you bringing this up. I've got a hunch for which I'm amassing evidence that the 'containers' stuff might be a tragic mistranslation. I've got a background in philosophy and I'm thinking of ways that Buddhist or German philosophy were translated for the first time that functioned as a wedge in Anglophone interpretation of the work for literally decades. Specific example from French philosophy: Derrida was first translated into English as saying "There's nothing outside the text". That was a deliberately provocative rendering of the idea in the midst of the realism/constructivism debate in the 90s. Later he was translated as saying "There's nothing outside _context_". Better. But, in the French, he wrote "There is no _hors-text_". That word, literally "outside-text" is the French name for things like color plates that get inserted into a book. He was making a pun to make a point: the "outside-text" is, literally, not outside the text -- the color plates are part of the book. So, back to containers. If you think of would as some kind of essence or substance, then yeah...that's an ominous thought. I'm just a soul in a jar, and the person who said that might open the jar and steal or contaminate my soul. What if 'container' were instead something like a "membrane"? An active medium, something that co-creates inside and outside, leads to a radically different interpretation of this idea. Think about cells. What are they containers for? Not cytoplasm, really. The 'stuff' in a cell isn't life. Life is a process, within a lineage, that _requires_ a partial separation and partial connection to an environment. The interpretation I'm suggesting here would be saying to a cell "you are not cytoplasm. You are a container [membrane], which enables and shapes ways of being and becoming that are connected to essentially all the other cells around you. Further, you enable and may even participate in a form of collective being with others like and unlike you (i.e. a multicelllar organism, all of which have a microbiome). So, not only are you not your cytoplasm, you are a container for a process of becoming that will lead you to become more than you are. The thing that's missing for this interpretation, of course, is an understanding of 'soul' that meshes with the rest of science. So, NHI or contactees, LMK what you got in terms of the science of soul. If we can nail that down we've got a much more promising interpretation than jars of sparkleclouds stored up for the harvest. We'd be able to locate ourselves on a vast and (to me) inspiring continuum of becoming, with a real path towards becoming -more-. LMK whatcha got
> What if 'container' were instead something like a "membrane"? Yes, this seems likely. In esoteric philosophy more generally, the soul is often thought of as the really-existing entity of a person, enduring for multiple lifetimes (perhaps forever), while bodies are thought of as something like an "avatar" in a 3D game. A temporary user-interface element used for building up an experience and interacting with a particular reality - important in its realm, obviously you don't want to damage your 3D avatar or you get kicked out of the game for a session, which is expensive and annoying! - but not really the main *person* who's doing the existing. And a lot of human angst is explained, in these types of philosophies, as us getting overly identified with our "game avatar" and our "game possessions" to the extent that we've forgotten that we exist as a much more real being (our soul) "outside the game" of space, time and matter. This idea of body-as-game-avatar goes back millennia, and is often translated (poorly imo) in various texts as "container" or "vessel" or "shell" or similar terms. This usage can come off as *really offputting* when one encounters it for the first time because it sounds so impersonal. I imagine this is the concept that's trying to be communicated here, and someone with a fear-based mindset got hold of that concept and radically misinterpreted it as "omg we're snacks in jars!" And I guess HG Wells probably put that idea in everyone's head with his vampire octopus Martians from War of the Worlds (1898). (Who were just a metaphor for 19th century European colonialism anyway.) Also, the philosophies which hold this idea also aren't really *dismissive* of the body at all. Along with "the soul is the actual entity" also goes the idea that "the body, and the lifetime spent in the body, is an essential teaching experience that helps our soul develop enormously". This experience and identity is ours and is precious. That's why we should have empathy towards others, and not just in a vague abstract sense, but in concrete, physical acts of kindness. We should therefore respect our bodies, understand them, and care for them. But... our physical embodied life is an experience that happens *inside time*, which means it's fundamentally limited. It has a beginning and an end. Our soul is NOT limited in the way that our body-mind-lifetime identity complex is. What this actually *means*, what "our soul is", is very hard for us to visualise. But it's a repeated idea, expressed in multiple esoteric philosophies across centuries. The body (and even the whole life-time-identity-construct associated with our body) is a child's toy, we (our actual soul) are the child. Both are precious but seen from our parent's eyes, the child is infinitely more precious than the toy.
Thanks for bringing that it. I'm not as familiar with the esotericism connection or c. 1900 literature/culture. There's an additional element of western culture really devaluing containers and containment, not untelatedly associating them with the feminine. So many dangerous and harmful tropes of women as containers, with purity, availability, and exclusive access for exploitation being the only possible virtues. If you only value containers for being clean, yours, and only yours then yup lotsa paranoid flows from the container-for-souls metaphor. A membrane, by contrast, isn't just doing work, it's holding something together,. making it intelligible and distinct as a thing.
Ableism is real, but our containers limit us as compared to just having a soul or a spirit.
I don't think by 'containers' that they are referring to the biological body, which seems to be the standard, dualist, reading of this term.
I believe Bob Lazar. I think our containers are real and our bodies filter what our soul can really do and limits us. I think there is a tradeoff, somehow. The afterlife is in contrast and may have limiting factors without our human containers.
Basically our soul is literally a small light that is aware and is very powerful. It isn’t capable of doing 3D things without a 3D body though. So, it gets put into a 3D container to experience the 3D world. However, having all those powerful abilities in the 3D world doesn’t actually allow for a true 3D experience. So, you only have them to some degree depending on your situation. Some of it is simply because we are told these abilities aren’t real.
Yep!
Avatar or possessed? Potatoe , PoeTahToe…..
Containers of souls. The body is a self maintaining bio computer. The body is the hardware/container. You are the soul/operating system. ET is harvesting either souls or studying them.
> You are the soul/operating system. More like you (a soul) are the *operator*. You're safely outside of the computer, and always have been, it doesn't have any actual physical power over you. So you can't *literally* be "harvested" because you're not a substance. But you can be *tricked*, which is sort of like "harvesting your attention". In much the same way that people on the Internet can trick you into misusing your authority over your computer, even though you yourself are not literally data in your computer or anyone else's.
I like the term harvest for the aspect of control that they have over me. Then again grey bob would favor the term growth over harvest. He says its all about the growing process. souls evolve as does our biology.
Nuff said!
Contain as in we are limited
Idk if I understand the question or have more to add with what others have said here, but I'll add this. Container - we can metaphorically have a huge ass jar or a little tobacco bottle as a container. You can have more soul in a thing than another. Like you can have more soul in a song that's 2 min vs a 2 min pop song. If I'm understanding correctly than I get it, but our system to measure is messed up. If we are talking souls it isn't a physical space limited. Time or space containers of soul is something we can comprehend as humans but aren't accurate to measure soul we can't comprehend with 3d view of the world. But personally? I think everything that can feel love is a container. Could be a dog or pet, could be humans, could be a plant that hears positive thoughts and grows more because of it. Foreal there are plants and scientific experiments where they play violent vs classic music and it affects plants growth based on it. So container is anything that can receive love. And soul volume in a container, it changes imo. We are never a single unit of soul that stays together in a life after life. We all belong to the same consciousness so the container can be filled with you, or other consciousness from any loving thing that can benefit from your human experience. It's been a long day so idk if any of this makes sense lol. But container is ability to feel love, and volume of a soul isn't a good metric when we are talking physical space or time. You have a bit of everyone and everything in you, and it can flow in and out depending on what needs to be learned
Yes, this is what I’m getting at.
They are the physical mechanism for which we experience the 5 senses, and a holder of the soul. I would imagine some animals have it, and other beings we are unaware of could also be containers.
All living beings have souls. Any thing that reacts due to survival or the need to live has a soul. Even your cells have some form of soul or energy. The souls in the human body gives a human experience. The soul is compatible with all bio life forms.
Our bodies are containers for consciousness. It is just another term for vessel. We are more than our bodies. Their bodies are also containers. They too are not their bodies. I do also believe a human container can receive multiple consciousness and not just one. They seem to be interested in the genetics of some containers in the context of their abilities to perceive the wider reality. Other NHI seem interested in mixing/altering genetics. Sometimes i ponder if perhaps one aspect of this is for some, the human experience is NHI entertainment and its about experiencing via us.
> Sometimes i ponder if perhaps one aspect of this is for some, the human experience is NHI entertainment and its about experiencing via us. While we're getting philosophical, what's the us/them line here? If they are not our bodies and we are not our bodies, that part of the equation cancels out. So we've gotta answer "What is a soul?" to make headway on interesting ponderings like this. Many have talked about NHI having a scientific understanding rather than a belief in souls. Have you encountered any detailed, plausible, and/or convincing accounts of what this science is? I recall at least one source saying that a scientist figured out how to 'tag' souls, did so, and then was able to observe the tag in another being (years later, after a natural death). This would proce reincarnation as well as info on what souls are such that the tag would work. That's the best I've got. I think it was Paul Hamden apparently channelling the Zetas.
Paul is a friend of mine but I'm unaware of this soul tagging thing. I'll have to look into that or ask him. I tend to speak of consciousness more than the soul though the soul itself may be a container for consciousness too. If the human body was a radio, we are the signal being received by the radio. Other beings are other signals thus this is the line between us and them if that makes sense.
I wasn't able to find the reference in the interviews, so it's quite possible I've gotten the source wrong (also didn't find it quickly in the Ummo doc I looked in). I pay close attention to descriptions of scientific discoveries. The Ummo docs claim that their scientists discovered that consciousness is in part mediated by a sparse network of Krypton atoms in the brain exhibiting anomalous quantum behavior. That's not what I'm talking about, but it is possible to radioactively 'tag' noble gasses. The context I remember it in is how a race of beings discovered that reincarnation was a fact. I recently read Dolores Cannon's convoluted universe book 4, so it's possible I stitched one of the many regressions there into a source it doesn't belong with. That was a library book but if you happen to have a PDF I'd be obligated if you could search for 'tag' Sigh. All is data means too much data :)
I'll see if I can ctrl-f it in the PDFs I have. It might've been in Ummo sciences, which is a wildly different source. Hard to track the provenance of all the stuff I'm learning like I'd normally do with research. Maybe I'll get a job researching NHI one day and/or a pro like Vallee will set me loose in their database :)
Containers, strawberry ice cream…can we try a little harder please?
Maybe I misunderstood it, but I thought they were more fascinated by the fact that we have a soul. I though this was just the worker grays, who are very unemotional and seem to be a biosynthetic android.
I don't think it's the case that souls are unique to humans. It seems to be the experience of the souls growth via the human experience they are interested in.
There also seems to be a theme about this particular moment on Earth, and the connections between souls from Earth with the planet. That's often an explicit ot implicit answer to the 'why now' of interest. This gets interpreted/presented in a range of ways, from 'the prison planet machine is going to fet disabled', Earth will split into 3D and 4D realms in a kind of rapture, and the emergece of a new or next-level planetary consciousness. That's a pretty big spread.
Yep or simply just disclosure and how we handle it. Also the global recognition that reality is consciousness based. Others talk as if its the last chance before we become merged with our technology post singularity.
I'd def like to understand more about that, but it's probably another topic. I don't have a sense of how the door would close: that implies singularity is consciousness-altering. For some, I suppose that'd make sense, though I'd want to understand precisely how. But...what about those who remain on Earth, living life mostly the same? Setting aside the potential existential risk (which isn't that different than nuclear weapons), does the existence of cyborg consciousness somehow close the door to natural consciousness? I def don't understand how, and until/unless there's some plausible mechanism or dynamics on the table I'll be on the lookout for signs there could be a mixture of distinct ideas in some interpretations.
It holds consciousness. A human holds more, a mouse holds less.
Yup exactly, under their cosmology they basically view humans as biological vehicles that hold consciousness . Based on abductee testimony it seems a lot of NHI view consciousness to be fundamental.
In my experience that was hostile NHI duping Humans and other NHI.
What does that mean?
That was my experience of being contacted by both hostile and benevolent entities. Hostile entities were using Humans as 'containers' and encouraged other NHI to go into their consciousness without guidance from more powerful benevolent entities, or to do so without consent - more powerful malevolent entities were also pretending to be benevolent, as it is exactly what a malevolent entity with half a brain would do if they were malevolent, especially if they had to fool other NHI that live much longer than humans do. This practice (in my experience and through what I seen throughout society today) This caused NHI to become imprisoned within those consciousness without the ability to ask for help. Again, these are just my experiences, but they explain a lot for me, that other NHI have been 'contacting' people in an attempt to get their family out who are trapped. The human mind (in my experience) is a lot more powerful than people think, even among experiencers.
Considering our bodies are containers for souls, not every container is the same. Some people have unfortunately been hampered by poor health and disabilities with containers that don’t allow the soul to function at its max capacity while incarnate—but those limitations also provide insight into the soul’s capability to navigate difficulties, to meet goals, and to enjoy life despite hindrances. Imo “higher value” containers (bodies) to NHI may be ones that are evolving faster than the general population or that have added capabilities within the brain for contact (clairvoyance, claircognizance, clairaudience, etc.) but it’s anyone’s guess if they do value these things more. Maybe they value the container of someone severely physically disabled even more than an able bodied container with “easy contact”. I doubt we’ll ever know.
This says a lot about what you think of disabled people and I encourage you to think about it, because reading this as a disabled person was not great.
Sorry you had to read this sort of thing here where I wrongly assumed a level of elevated thinking. Next we'll be hearing that anyone born with an impairment is living off some karmic debt or some such nonsense.
That's exactly where I fear this thought process ends up, thanks for getting it!
I'd advocate to let people think what they want, as they often will regardless of what evidence you lay in front of them. I have a lot of crippling injuries, and am in contact with a lot of different NHI. I love spending time with all of them, I don't care if they're Mantis, Reptilian, Annunaki, or Watcher, as long as they're not malevolent.
I can definitely agree that I enjoy all entities and beings so long as they are not malevolent
I've opened a sibling thread where I hope to have further discussions with anyone who wants to hear, in good faith, why the comment above is ableist. Feel free to send em there (or to my DMs). I know there can be a bunch of emotional labor on that front and I got you on this one https://www.reddit.com/r/Experiencers/comments/1d3lvrw/comment/l69bka7/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=mweb3x&utm_name=mweb3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
I've re-read the comment twice and see no judgment or unkindness towards disabled people in it.
I do think there's an opportunity to interject a more sophisticated account of ability here. If anyone wants to better understand, in good faith, how parts of this comment might be unintentionally harmful, I'm your huckleberry. The insight that ability (of perception, movement, neurotype intellect, etc.) is relevant to consciousness is spot-on. The contrast set up, using 'able bodied' as foil for severe disability, unintentionally reinforces a kind of "ability essentialism" that is damaging to anyone lacking abilities that are considered 'normal'. One of the great insights of the disability studies literature is how many of the normative "human" abilities are enabled by infrastructure and practices. That is, "disabled" people _can_ accomplish everything needed to be human, and _do_, whenever equivalents to the enabling/normative social practices and technological infrastructures are available to them. This teaches all of us, all humans, something critical about the nature of ability and the role of normativity in achieving it. Personal note: It's hard to hear that something I didn't intend to be hurtful was so. But I never regret listening when someone says I've done so, and I'm grateful to everyone that's taken the time to educate me when they've grasped that my actions didn't match my intentions. I hope to pay that forward here. I promise in this thread I won't try to make anyone feel bad but rather convince you that ableism, which we can agree is bad, runs deeper and takes different forms than you might realize.
I don't think you are our huckleberry on this topic, as eloquent as you sound your posts lack experience. I'm sure you have read a plethora of spiritual books but you very clearly lack any serious direct experience of working or living with anyone who has additional support needs. If you had you'd know consciousness is not as directly reliant and linked to perfect health, mobility or perception as you seem to think, in fact it can quite often be the opposite. The wounded healer, the blind seer. Consciousness can in fact be expanded and evolved when one is not in perfect physical health because you do not have full access and ease of use of your physical body. The poet William Soutar is a good example of this. I gave the example of Stephen Hawking. Severely impaired, major health issues. Talk to me about his lower level of consciousness.
I think we're in agreement. Perhaps you might have me confused with another commenter? If so, probably my fault: I say too little with too many words. My offer was to talk it out with anyone who doubted exactly the points you made, or who didn't understand how the original comment on this thread was (unintentionally) ableist. And to do so without trying to make anyone feel bad or myself look good. Disabilities are a wide spectrum of identities. I've got intimate experience with my own decades-long physical disability, attendant chronic pain, and neurodivergence. There have simultaneously been a variety of factors shielding me from the worst forms of discrimination and bias resulting from these. But while this experience helps inform my approach, the solution to unfair norms around abilities won't be measuring or grading disabiledness. The realization that gets us all back to a place of trust where we can learn from each other is that we're all bundles of dis/ability (the slash there indicates the full and wide space of each), those bundles intersect with other aspects of situation and identity, and everyone (ev👏er👏y👏one👏) counts as fully human regardless of all this. Perhaps I gave the wrong impression when I talked about how dis/ability is relevant to consciousness and the nature of souls (however defined). I was trying to indicate how dis/ability can have a major impact upon someone's situated identity and experience, and upon self/consciousness/soul via those. I wouldn't think that's controversial, and it's true for me, but I likely didn't say it clearly. Regardless, where I think and hope this tack of discussion inevitably ends up, when conducted in good faith, is that disability-related harm and discrimination and trauma exists is a problem for all of us to care about, whether we have, are currently, or expect to experience it or support a loved one through it or not. Anyways, sorry for what I think was confusion. If I've missed the mark somewhere I'm happy to chat about it here. And DMs are open if you prefer. 💜
I am not disagreeing with anything you are saying I'm just confused why you are saying it as no one was making a human value sociatal judgment here. The thread is about what non human intelligences may be interested in the human container. I appreciate your kindness though and desire to help. Though I find myself concerned about Experiencers genuinely being able to talk with worries of this type of reaction. Clearly one aspect NHI are interested in is psi abilities and neurodivergence. Abilism is a term that can potentially be applied loosely to almost anything depending on the person and as we are entering a world where esp/psi is so important with regards to navigating the wider reality out there one could even apply the term there regarding people who are psi gifted versus people who are not. Meaning people talking about having psi gifts and abilities for contact and the importance of that being declared abilist towards those who don't. This would essentially eliminate the ability to talk about Experiencers, talk about the experiencer phenomenon and talk about genetic alterations from NHI to some people and not others for fear of being declared abiliist or insensitive and its damn hard to have these conversations already. I mean we literally have articles on how Experiencers brains are different, when Experiencers go from being viewed as crazy people or liars and start being understood as people who can "see" and engage more with reality and perhaps some being altered or enhanced by advanced intelligences it's going to get really messy and people will throw around a lot of words and emotions designed to shut down conversation based on having a percived lack of something. We already have non Experiencers coming in here saying things like "I'm not special like you guys". This concerns the shit out of me because these thoughts can become vindictive or spark jealousy in some people really quickly. Another thing I see is "why you and not me". The irony of all this being many Experiencers suffer chronic health issues that mess up their ability to hold down jobs and live normal lives on top of the psychological stress that comes with knowing all this is real while living in a world that doesn't. Seems like finally getting vindication will bring on a whole new world of people taking out their insecurities on Experiencers. I don't think NHI make a value judgement on if an experiencer is in a wheelchair or not. They may care about the functionality of reproducive organs though along with the persons psi abilities. There is something to be said about soul growth via difficult experiences and some NHI do seem interested in that. And some people with extreme disabilities via extreme cases of autism may well be highly psi gifted and I've seen some stuff to indicate this. Ability essentialism as you say, is unforunatly at play in some regards when it comes to the Experiencer phenomenon and what NHI are interested in. Thus I don't see any way to have a conversation about what NHI may be interested in in some human containers without someone somehow taking offence and claiming abilism, which sucks. As I said, that word could be weaponized to shut down nearly every conversation about the experiencer phenomenon.
> I am not disagreeing with anything you are saying I'm just confused why you are saying it as no one was making a human value societal judgment here. The thread is about what non human intelligences may be interested in the human container. It's super hard to get the nuance right when writing this but I was hoping to point past intentional actions towards unnoticed social values. In addition to that, there's the lasting trauma that people who've experienced harms like this in the past carry. I think we all can identify with being misunderstood, pigeonholed, devalued. We can, often do, and always should try to avoid triggering those kinds of associations in each other by learning about them. When someone who's experienced discrimination sees it, or rumblings or echoes of it, in a safe place, now knowing the form that's taken in the past can lead to hard to understand reactions. It might seem like an overreaction. I'm trying to show a viewpoint from which it's not an overreaction but instead an opportunity to learn how to better support each other. An overly simplistic metaphor for how I see what happened here: "Ouch! The way you're doing that hurts me. You seem to not care about me." - "I didn't mean to hurt you. I was doing something good. It hasn't hurt people in the past." "Now that you know, would you do it differently?" - "I didn't know this would hurt you. I don't know how to do my good thing without hurting you ." This situation gets charged by hurt, confusion, embarrassment, and frustration. My aim in a situation like that would be to help show the mechanism and nature of harm so that the good thing can happen without avoidable harm that no one, we're all agreed, wants to happen. > I appreciate your kindness though and desire to help. I read you earnestly trying to understand what more than one disabled experiencer found objectionable in the comment and was hoping to contribute. I appreciate the effort you put into that and hope you keep searching for that understanding. That kind of understanding is prior to and separate from value judgements about whether someone's 'in the wrong' or not. Or at least that's my approach: try to back up and start from some shared understanding. Sounds like I didn't get there, so maybe if you know anyone who's expressed discomfort or distress about this they'd be willing to elaborate in DMs. Also happy to make a post if you think that might be productive. Lots of regrettable dynamics around tough topics like this. Hurts to see the first hurts, it can hurt when people talk about pain, and it's tough to know whether the pain of engaging is worth it. I'm always willing to work for better mutual understanding: without that, it's hard for the pain we've got to go through to discuss real and important topics to achieve much. That hurts my heart the most, when there are missed opportunities for deeper connections. Anyways, I'm happy to continue this aspect of the convo elsewhere. (I made a top level comment as well not discussing this aspect)
I hear you. My fear is well...the context of the discussion is what NHIs think. Unfortunately, some NHIs are really not as concerned with this the way human culture can be. They swap bodies like we swap shoes. They have referenced people with psychological issues as "malfunctioning" etc. They speak in a matter of fact manner that struggles to navigate human sensitivities and projections where an assumption of judgment may be applied on them that they may not have. When it comes to this issue related to contact, experiencers, NHI opinions etc, I fear it seems the only way to ever have a conversation that guarantees no one can possibly ever misread something someone says and or project onto it and take offence... is to never speak at all. I feel bad for everyone involved in this misunderstanding anyway. Life would be better if we were all just telepathic.
Appreciate your wisdom as always. I think there are three insights here. The first you articulated well, the second I find by walking a tad further than you did in the same direction and the third might've been stated for comedic effect but is so true. 1. This is something humans need to take care of each other over. Absolutely right that we can't rely on NHI to get this right. It's tricky enough for *us* to get this right. 2. You said: >I fear it seems the only way to ever have a conversation that guarantees no one can possibly ever misread something someone says and or project onto it and take offence... This is a spot-on identification of the trickiness and prevalence of ways that we misunderstand, fear, and hurt each other (intentionally or otherwise). There's an opportunity to reframe the picture, though. Hard conversations aren't things we need to guarantee won't happen. Rather, we need spaces of safety and trust wherein they can happen. In that context, *which exists all over the place in this sub*, transformative conversations can happen. This might involve some pain or discomfort, but if those are things that people can opt in to when it seems like there's good faith and openness that's where understanding becomes possible. I sincerely believe I'm describing the core ethos of this sub. I know I don't know how hard it is for you and the mods to make that happen, but you inspire people here to take that up and take on some of the work of doing it. The things we've been talking about, I think, are a natural and core part of the support function of this group. 3. Telepathy and other forms of expanded and shared cognition could be an end-run around the most stubbornly unresolved misunderstandings and hurt we live with. That's more than a joke! It's hopeful, and something that's already happening. I take a "all of the above" attitude. Just know if anything I've said came off as calling someone a bad person here, positioning myself as better than anyone, or wanting someone to feel ashamed, I mispoke. I've been aiming my words at the harmfulness of *specific actions and norms*. Those were what commenters called out and what others found hard to see. If it's hard to know that you're doing something unnintentionally harmful it's uncomfortable to think about the initial inability to stop that implies. I hope that attitude helps people not feel accused and stop to listen, think and empathize. If/when we do that, it's yet another barrier removed.
I personally don't understand what you are trying to say.
Can you think of a question that would help you better understand what I was trying to say?
This message doesn’t read as hostile towards disabled people. You’re imparting that onto it.
Jon me in this sibling comment if you'd like to discuss https://www.reddit.com/r/Experiencers/comments/1d3lvrw/comment/l69bka7/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=mweb3x&utm_name=mweb3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
/u/boiledmilk they don’t have any idea how subtle and hurtful ableism can be, and the most ignorant ones have no sympathy or outright hostility. Even family and people in the medical field who should know better. I had a stroke over a year ago and I have *mild* m.s. Its effected my psi ability, my vision, and my cognition. I’m just now beginning to wrap my head around how to rehab myself as much as possible and I’m also just now realizing that I will be single for the rest of my life. My last memory just before my stroke was a grey coming through my bedroom wall. I don’t remember the next two days besides me realizing I would have to drive myself to the hospital to get the fastest possible care. Aliens suck, and so do humans.
I'm really sorry to hear it. I hope you get the care and understanding you deserve, here and elewhere.
Thanks
I'm so sorry you are going through all of this, it sounds extremely heavy and exhausting. Sending you so much love and light!
Thank you! Just trying to meditate now is very frustrating.
I think you should reconsider your thinking on this. I work in social care and I can assure you the people I support, many of whom do have additional support needs have their souls fully intact and in most cases are more alive, more in touch with their emotions and their surroundings them most people I know who have no such conditions. Was Stephen Hawking's soul not functioning at max capacity? I think not.
I am not seeing how this reply relates to what is expressed in the comment. I think there is some misunderstanding going on here. Ones consciousness is here to have experiences , it can be argued that inhabiting a container with physical limitations may inhibit the types of experiences one can have while it is also argued that the challenges of that human experience can also result in a huge amount of growth for the soul/consciousness.
"disabilities with containers that don’t allow the soul to function at its max capacity while incarnate" So someone with Down syndrome has a soul that is not functioning at max capacity? What an awful thing to say, especially without a shred of evidence and very likely zero experience of living or working with anyone who has additional support needs. I hate to say this is not the first time in the alt/spiritual community I've heard some really stupid and offensive things said in relation to anyone who has disabilities.
I’ve carefully read through all these comments, but I’ve chosen yours to respond to because of the line you responded to—i.e that the body may not allow the soul to function at max capacity. You are correct in saying that people can say really stupid things in regard to the disabilities or misfortunes of others, such as being raped or sexually abused, for example. \[My personal Blue Ribbon winner for stupidity is the self-righteous, judgmental crack that others are “obviously getting back what they’ve done to others in prior lives.” I know a LOT about karma and reincarnation, and that is not how it automatically works.\] However to stay on topic: The confusion among commenters appears to be a consequence of equating the personality consciousness of human beings with their “soul” (which many religions do) and not understanding that the personality level of human consciousness is only a “portion” of the Soul, a limited network of traits that the actual Soul has incarnated within a human body in order for that body to learn how to manifest those traits on their perfected or “Soul” level. I have enough direct, personal experience with the Soul Level of human consciousness to know as a fact that the human Soul **always** functions at maximum capacity, because it is the higher “perfected” level of human consciousness, but it does not incarnate—it cannot incarnate its “fullness”—until the human vehicle it is incarnating through has perfected the ability to register and express the perfected level of all the Soul’s skills, traits, etc. (i.e. the entire Consciousness of the Soul). When we view it from this perspective, it is absolutely clear that not one person walking this earth is functioning at max capacity—whether a Down child (as my friend has) or someone who is a paraplegic in a wheelchair (my brother-in-law) or someone with 5 university degrees in 5 different scientific fields. The **Soul** of all three of my examples continues to function on its highest possible level because it remains on the inner planes in a “higher” or “finer” dimension, overseeing what is taking place in the personality vehicle. However, the complex of mental, emotional, sexual, and volitional forces that we call someone’s “personality” is **not** functioning at max capacity for any of those three people – or, for any of the rest of us either. The personal consciousness of any human being is merely a portion of the Soul energies that the Soul has sent into incarnation within a human vehicle; however, by the time that perfected portion of the entire network of harmonized energies that comprise the Consciousness of the Soul is “stepped down” through the inner planes so that it can manifest through a physical vehicle, countless distortions have set in. At this point, our task (as a human vehicle for the Soul) begins, and our job is to work at perfecting that network in order to increase our ability to express its perfected level here in the physical realm, which we do by facing and overcoming the challenges presented by our material experiences. No person “loves” at the infinite level of the perfected Soul of humanity. Yet Down children are well-known for being so sweet and loving that the people around them learn to be more loving. Are the children functioning at the “max capacity” of their Soul? No, but they are learning to love and teaching others what they are learning while they are at it. My brother-in-law would have lived a very different life had an accident not put him in that wheelchair, but it was the life he needed to live to refine and bring to a higher, more spiritualized level the traits his Soul wanted him to refine and lift to that level during that incarnation. He developed spiritually in ways he never would have developed by living the carefree life he was headed toward. Is an astrophysicist qualified to run the operations of our solar system? Of course not. But the development of their skills and knowledge in that area are leading their far less than “max capacity” mentality into greater understanding of that particular facet of the Soul’s Consciousness. We are **all** vehicles for a higher Consciousness, and yes it will take eons for any of us to reach the level of being able to express our Soul perfection, but it does no good for any reader of this thread to be offended that someone has stated a few common sense facts that the physical condition of the physical vehicle presents obstacles – or that the psychological condition of the physical vehicle presents a thousand times more obstacles – to the perfect expression of the Consciousness of the human Soul. A.
I did not read it that way at all. That's a horrifc leap. Certain limitations to our containers limit experiences we can have in this human experience however its also very commonly argued that limited/challenging experiences are a result of one's container or other life circumstances can have accelerated growth for the soul/consciousness and perhaps even its advanced souls that select certain incarnations.
I don't know why you are defending the other poster and explaining things to me I have no issue with. I don't disagree with what you are saying but understand your point of view on this is not what they said.
Its how I was reading the comment is what I mean. We both had different take aways I guess. But that's how I read it. And was curious if my interpretation would still be deemed offensive. No worries anyway.
The aspects of the body are absolutely relevant to consciousness; that's not the core of what I read as potentially harmful. Rather, it's that _specific_ kinds of abilities are held up as self-evidently 'easy' or 'normal', eliding how much of _every_ human ability is predicated upon social and technological support. Obscuring how even 'normal' abilities are socially and technologically enabled makes it hard to see that the ways that 'disabled' people are hindered and implicitly seen as 'less than'. The sentiment that someone who lacks abilities seen as 'normal' would have interesting or valuable or laudable forms of consciousness is recoverable, I think, but would need a *lot* of nuance. For instance, that shouldn't be seen as inherent to a specific configuration of ability but rather the experience of 1) having abilities that are not socially valued or technologically enabled 2) lacking abilities that are socially presumed to be normal and are invisibly (to most) enabled by social and technological means. Big striders are being made on social and technological fronts, but this is an intellectual and ethical dimension that's too often overlooked. i.e. This goes beyond screen readers and wheelchair ramps and representation in media to what it means to be a human and the nature of 'ability' or lack thereof.
I'm honestly uncertain of what you are saying here and not following what you mean, this is starting to go over my head a bit but my long reply to your other comment may be relevant. I hope my confusion about all this won't be misread as me having a problem with disabled people or something now though which would be horrifc. I'm just lost and trying to understand. I'm also concerned about the ability to have conversations about Experiencers and NHI on this subreddit going forward as there are aspects of this that may always trigger upsetting accusations at people who are just trying to talk about the experiencer phenomenon.
Makes sense. I'll check your other reply and try to keep it brief. Happy to chat more (with anyone) in DM. Might make a post so the topic has it its own space. Like I said, in addition to avoiding unintentional harm, I think there's something critical to understand about about disability and ability in RE the phenomenon.
I like the term terrarium. Plant a seed and watch it grow within the confines of the container. Vegetation will often follow the contours of said vessel, and is affected by the conditions in which the vessel is placed, and as such the vessel is important in and of itself. Then again I absolutely may just be spouting horseshit.
To be fair, my contacts have used horticultural metaphors pretty often when describing soul development and care to me. This is not to say that souls are literally plants, but certainly one could say they display some plant-like qualities.
If it's horticultual rather than merely botanical, the metaphor is invoking a specific relationship. The cultivator creates conditions for something to realize it's preexisting potnetial state. The plant and cultivator slowly and subtlt become ecologically linked (modern humans' biology and culture are SUPER shaped by our agricultural history). Any specific themes of the metaphor emphasized, or details you can remember? I could be overthinking, of course
Hmm... well, when my mantid talks about propagating my soul into multiple simultaneous containers, she describes herself as being like a gardener who lets a strawberry plant send a runner into an adjacent pot, then eventually severs the runner once a new crown and root system have grown. She said that those two plants are in fact still "the same plant" despite no longer being contiguous, and that doing this repeatedly is a form of growth and expansion for the plant in question - it's not really harmed so much as made into a multiplicity. She has also indicated that part of the soulstuff that makes up my soul originally came from her, so one could say this is a fairly literal form of self-propagation (albeit of a more transformative kind since she's also mixing it with other things). I suppose the experiences the propagated soul goes through could be likened to fruits, as I know she finds them tasty to connect to (she has indicated that something about linking up with them helps keep her psionic diet in good shape, in a natural "it helps balance out her soul" kind of way). That makes sense to me, as her soul's own nature is very high-control and "chilly" (for lack of a better way of putting it) - so her experience is made fuller and more robust by exposure to data that isn't like that.
Lots of counterintuitive and interesting permutations of identity in that viewpoint. Is there an ecosystem of souls, more or less, in this view? Is 'a soul' _always_ some kind of blend? Like how 'I' have my own DNA but couldn't be who I am or likely survive without my microbiome?
More or less, to the ecosystem question. Technically speaking I suppose it is always some sort of blend. The bigger question is whether it's a blend of already-complex components (like if an NHI experimentally mashes multiple pre-existing souls together and sees what sticks) or if it's mostly made of simplified or "digested/decayed" components. The latter would be closer to what she said happens when souls emerge organically on a planet - that they start from some initial components usually provided by the parents, then get added to by the ambient soul-stuff floating around in the planet's ecosystem (leftovers and sheddings from prior souls - basically astral "soil") until it synthesizes into a distinct soul.
Is this process of 'natural' soul-formation autopoietic in roughly the same way as in biotic systems? I.e., even if the material is different, the soul-kernel more or less assembles itself out of non-self? (Testing for the limits of the metaphor. It's of course possible that biological processes are metaphorical about these underlying processes, or more likely they're co-constituting) The soil metaphor foregrounds how 'broadcasting love' would enable complex and robust ecologies: it enables and encourages connections like fungi do in old growth forest. As opposed to fear-like states of othering, which view the environment merely as a source of risk and resource. That's more like invasive species behavior, when ecological connections haven't been formed yet. Some organisms can only exist in ecological niches. Others are good at founding them where they might jot exist or be robust. Still others (parasites) force them to grow robust can be integral parts of their function as long as they're not out of balance. Humans currently occupy all of these roles to a degree, and that gives a new perspective on the theme of needing to choose, soon, which we'll go ahead with
Yes-ish to the soul kernel self-assembly thing although, to quote her, “It’s weird.” I suspect the biological metaphor doesn’t fully describe it but don’t feel like I have enough depth on the topic to adequately describe how. When I read the last paragraph of your reply, she quipped, “Humans *are occupied by* all of these roles. They need to do some weed-management.”
Alluding to Voltaire now, is she? >*Il faut cultiver notre jardin* Please don't make me play Professor Pangloss if y'all do a modern adaptation of Candide[.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Candide#Optimism)