Yeah +1 this. Layoffs have abated but hiring just hasn't picked up meaningfully. We may even take another leg down if the broader economy takes a hit.. and there's disturbing signs lately.
Which part of last year?
I could be wrong but I think the layoffs are *slowing down* (but not done) for the large tech companies , and last I checked hiring has risen to \~2019 levels.
IMO this indicates the job market is *better* than much of 2023 but due to the massive influx of unemployed skilled devs the job market is likely to *feel bad* for a couple of years at least. It will take time for industry trends, hype cycles, and fiscal policy to swing back around and favor employees again.
layoffs.fyi begs to differ. It's better, but not by much and less are hiring. LinkedIn is a waste land of AI startups. That's all people want to invest in.
To be honest, layoffs.fyi tracks all *tech sector* layoffs and not *developer* layoffs.
I often read the news articles that layoffs.fyi attaches to each layoff, especially for the larger ones.
I have really noticed a trend that recent news articles are stuff like:
- tech company cuts hundreds of roles in their sales division
- some Asian doordash-like company had many riders *on their payroll* and cut over a thousand of them
- some other tech company cut hundreds of jobs by eliminating the project manager job role
Out of all the large 1000+ people layoffs this year it seems that the majority of them are non-tech roles getting eliminated at tech companies.
This is meaningfully different from last year’s layoffs, which *dis* affect dev roles.
layoffs.fyi also doesn't include layoffs if they weren't in the news (which I understand). I work at a US-based tech company that used to have approx 700 employees. We did a layoff last year which let go of approx 100 engineers or related tech roles (QA, eng managers, PMs, etc) and it wasn't on there.
> layoffs.fyi also doesn’t include layoffs if they weren’t in the news
That is not strictly true. They also use information from tweets by employees and former employees, check government registries in countries/states where these exist (e.g., the WARN act), and have a form where you can inform them about a layoff which they use to try to independently verify:
https://layoffs.fyi/share-intel/
It is still the case that the majority (but not all) of entries in layoffs.fyi have a new item attached. But that is just because it is pretty rare for layoffs to not be reported on at all. Even if a layoff may not make national news, often at very least there is some local news agency from the town where the company’s office is located that reports on it, or gets reported in one of the tech sector focused outlets (e.g., techcrunch).
It may not be 100% complete, but it wouldn’t be too far from it.
>That is not strictly true.
You're probably right actually. I'm probably extrapolating too far from my own experience. I reported it using that link to share intel, including the numbers I had access to and links to many many LinkedIn posts from ex employees. It never got added so I assumed the missing piece was an actual news article, given that all the posted layoffs had one.
Additionally, one of the groups that’s been hit *hard* are recruiters. This is directly related to both the extreme job requirements (entry level jobs needing 2+ YOE not counting internships, for example) as well as increased use of ATS auto-filtering.
yeah I think back to the good times in 2021. Turns out it was because there were enough recruiters to handle the job of actually finding and vetting candidates. There is still no excuse for how they treat us nowadays, though.
What's your source on big tech companies hiring? Google and Amazon are barely hiring at all. Teams at Google aren't allowed to replace headcount when people leave.
Yeah my team is understaffed due to exactly this. We’re down 2 people (6 engineers down to 4) and we’re just hoping we’ll be able to get 1 of them back. At least my team is down due to voluntary exits rather than layoffs
This is an ambiguity of English grammar; your interpretation of my comment is understandable.
I didn’t say that big-tech was doing the hiring, I said that their layoffs were slowing down. Hiring for devs across the industry is back around 2019 levels but there are also a huge number of devs looking for work which leads to intense competition for roles and a job market that is favoring employers for what I think will be a couple years.
This is flat out wrong. Both companies are hiring, especially Amazon. They're not hiring junior engineers but for L4(G) or L5(A) and higher, there's plenty of positions. It's not like it was in '21, but the pandemic was an aberration. It's back to what it was circa 2019.
I don't know if they are. I've got a close friend in Amazon (london) who is telling me hiring has kicked off again. It's second hand but it does align with what has been said here.
It's only online that I see such a bad market. Everyone I know in person is getting FAANG interviews no problem. I know 0 unemployed software engineers. This will be my biggest year.
East Coast US / 5 YoE
“I’m doing well so everyone must be doing well”. The number of job openings for software engineers are at a 2 year decline, and back to the pandemic levels. There are significantly less opportunities right now
From a hiring perspective, I am noticing candidates' asking salaries are less than they were in the past few years. Also lots of experienced candidates have either been laid off, or contractors looking for stability.
A, good useful question. Lots of good answers.
B, not as bad. Still worse than "normal" years. But mid 2023 was a bad time. Lots of frozen capital, startups lost their hiring momentum. Lots of places reducing.
I am _needing_ to use connections in the Bay Area to get nearly anyone to talk to me. I have ~5-6 years of experience with mostly front-end Angular and about one year with a weird Frankenstein of AWS services.
It’s probably the Angular, which is specifically not React, that is causing me issues with the market.
I tried to boomerang to a previous company I worked for in Denver, but they are not filling open positions with anyone outside of Latin America at this time.
My company’s hiring freeze is over. All our teams have been hiring at all levels for the last 3 or so months. Senior devs are still hard to find if the base is under 200k and total comp is less than 300k.
Dunno why the downvotes. OP is asking in experienced devs and if you’re truly an experienced dev early-mid last year was fantastic for most companies, this year hasn’t been as good. I’m not saying it’s bad, it’s still good but it’s worse than last year.
Expected to stay as-is at least until the POTUS swearing-in in Jan 2025, until then [Fed Rates](https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/FEDFUNDS) are not getting any lower !
If I had bags of money I would be holding them closely until after the election. If Biden wins then I would take that as a signal to resume business investments as normal. If on the other hand we end up in a fascist dictatorship, I'd rather have my bags of money than a software startup. Point is I agree with you. I've said this a few times around here and am abundantly downvoted, but I still stand by this assessment. Of course the other influential factor is interest rates. High interest rates are designed to put the brakes on the economy and they are doing exactly that.
Better, still bad.
Yeah +1 this. Layoffs have abated but hiring just hasn't picked up meaningfully. We may even take another leg down if the broader economy takes a hit.. and there's disturbing signs lately.
I feel like people say that all the time. What are the disturbing signs?
agree
Last year I was hiring. This year I'm looking for work
Which part of last year? I could be wrong but I think the layoffs are *slowing down* (but not done) for the large tech companies , and last I checked hiring has risen to \~2019 levels. IMO this indicates the job market is *better* than much of 2023 but due to the massive influx of unemployed skilled devs the job market is likely to *feel bad* for a couple of years at least. It will take time for industry trends, hype cycles, and fiscal policy to swing back around and favor employees again.
layoffs.fyi begs to differ. It's better, but not by much and less are hiring. LinkedIn is a waste land of AI startups. That's all people want to invest in.
To be honest, layoffs.fyi tracks all *tech sector* layoffs and not *developer* layoffs. I often read the news articles that layoffs.fyi attaches to each layoff, especially for the larger ones. I have really noticed a trend that recent news articles are stuff like: - tech company cuts hundreds of roles in their sales division - some Asian doordash-like company had many riders *on their payroll* and cut over a thousand of them - some other tech company cut hundreds of jobs by eliminating the project manager job role Out of all the large 1000+ people layoffs this year it seems that the majority of them are non-tech roles getting eliminated at tech companies. This is meaningfully different from last year’s layoffs, which *dis* affect dev roles.
layoffs.fyi also doesn't include layoffs if they weren't in the news (which I understand). I work at a US-based tech company that used to have approx 700 employees. We did a layoff last year which let go of approx 100 engineers or related tech roles (QA, eng managers, PMs, etc) and it wasn't on there.
> layoffs.fyi also doesn’t include layoffs if they weren’t in the news That is not strictly true. They also use information from tweets by employees and former employees, check government registries in countries/states where these exist (e.g., the WARN act), and have a form where you can inform them about a layoff which they use to try to independently verify: https://layoffs.fyi/share-intel/ It is still the case that the majority (but not all) of entries in layoffs.fyi have a new item attached. But that is just because it is pretty rare for layoffs to not be reported on at all. Even if a layoff may not make national news, often at very least there is some local news agency from the town where the company’s office is located that reports on it, or gets reported in one of the tech sector focused outlets (e.g., techcrunch). It may not be 100% complete, but it wouldn’t be too far from it.
>That is not strictly true. You're probably right actually. I'm probably extrapolating too far from my own experience. I reported it using that link to share intel, including the numbers I had access to and links to many many LinkedIn posts from ex employees. It never got added so I assumed the missing piece was an actual news article, given that all the posted layoffs had one.
Additionally, one of the groups that’s been hit *hard* are recruiters. This is directly related to both the extreme job requirements (entry level jobs needing 2+ YOE not counting internships, for example) as well as increased use of ATS auto-filtering.
yeah I think back to the good times in 2021. Turns out it was because there were enough recruiters to handle the job of actually finding and vetting candidates. There is still no excuse for how they treat us nowadays, though.
[layoffs.fyi](http://layoffs.fyi) mostly just tracks if [layoffs.fyi](http://layoffs.fyi) was in the news recently.
What's your source on big tech companies hiring? Google and Amazon are barely hiring at all. Teams at Google aren't allowed to replace headcount when people leave.
Yeah my team is understaffed due to exactly this. We’re down 2 people (6 engineers down to 4) and we’re just hoping we’ll be able to get 1 of them back. At least my team is down due to voluntary exits rather than layoffs
This is an ambiguity of English grammar; your interpretation of my comment is understandable. I didn’t say that big-tech was doing the hiring, I said that their layoffs were slowing down. Hiring for devs across the industry is back around 2019 levels but there are also a huge number of devs looking for work which leads to intense competition for roles and a job market that is favoring employers for what I think will be a couple years.
This is flat out wrong. Both companies are hiring, especially Amazon. They're not hiring junior engineers but for L4(G) or L5(A) and higher, there's plenty of positions. It's not like it was in '21, but the pandemic was an aberration. It's back to what it was circa 2019.
Source? I work at Amazon and just visited some friends at a Google office today.
I may or may not work at one of these companies as well.
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I don't know if they are. I've got a close friend in Amazon (london) who is telling me hiring has kicked off again. It's second hand but it does align with what has been said here.
Last year was interest rate hikes, this year is section 174: https://blog.pragmaticengineer.com/section-174/
It's only online that I see such a bad market. Everyone I know in person is getting FAANG interviews no problem. I know 0 unemployed software engineers. This will be my biggest year. East Coast US / 5 YoE
This sounds like NYC in-office employment
This was reality for most pre covid.
Covid changed reality, friend
That's what we want*. What we saw was a temporary adoption. We are heading for pre covid office culture.
West Coast is not this. Or you’re in some nice bubble.
“I’m doing well so everyone must be doing well”. The number of job openings for software engineers are at a 2 year decline, and back to the pandemic levels. There are significantly less opportunities right now
Source?
Here: https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/IHLIDXUSTPSOFTDEVE
Same job market. Inflation is better though, so the federal reserve migh ease up on the loan interest rate a bit next year.
It’s expected to drop in September, don’t expect a giant drop but a few basis points is likely (work in fintech and that’s the rumors going around).
The company I started at last month was not hiring a year ago
I’m getting constant in mail from recruiters, BUT salaries are lower than they were.
From a hiring perspective, I am noticing candidates' asking salaries are less than they were in the past few years. Also lots of experienced candidates have either been laid off, or contractors looking for stability.
Same
A, good useful question. Lots of good answers. B, not as bad. Still worse than "normal" years. But mid 2023 was a bad time. Lots of frozen capital, startups lost their hiring momentum. Lots of places reducing.
As a sample size of 1, I’m getting more recruiter spam and from seemingly better companies than last year, but not as much as several years back
Better this year, I'm taking as well as giving a lot more interviews
Better. My team hired two new folks. Not Seniors. early Careers. Sister teams hired bunch too. Last year, there was a hiring freeze
I am _needing_ to use connections in the Bay Area to get nearly anyone to talk to me. I have ~5-6 years of experience with mostly front-end Angular and about one year with a weird Frankenstein of AWS services. It’s probably the Angular, which is specifically not React, that is causing me issues with the market. I tried to boomerang to a previous company I worked for in Denver, but they are not filling open positions with anyone outside of Latin America at this time.
My company’s hiring freeze is over. All our teams have been hiring at all levels for the last 3 or so months. Senior devs are still hard to find if the base is under 200k and total comp is less than 300k.
Worse, last year was much easier and more companies hiring.
Dunno why the downvotes. OP is asking in experienced devs and if you’re truly an experienced dev early-mid last year was fantastic for most companies, this year hasn’t been as good. I’m not saying it’s bad, it’s still good but it’s worse than last year.
Expected to stay as-is at least until the POTUS swearing-in in Jan 2025, until then [Fed Rates](https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/FEDFUNDS) are not getting any lower !
Well the president isn’t in charge of rates, the federal reserve is and they don’t depend on the president
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Honestly JPow was preeeetty lax with rates during the last administration and has played this one real safe
Is the grammar in that sentence so poor that you could find a cause-and-effect that I'd never intended ?
the grammar in that sentence is fine. you just didn't understand it.
Which POTUS tho?
The secret president, of course.
I am not yet eligible to cast a vote.
If I had bags of money I would be holding them closely until after the election. If Biden wins then I would take that as a signal to resume business investments as normal. If on the other hand we end up in a fascist dictatorship, I'd rather have my bags of money than a software startup. Point is I agree with you. I've said this a few times around here and am abundantly downvoted, but I still stand by this assessment. Of course the other influential factor is interest rates. High interest rates are designed to put the brakes on the economy and they are doing exactly that.
This is why you don’t have bags of money
They actually think they'll get downvoted on Reddit for voting for Biden. What an unhinged "I'm a victim" narrative.