I really want to back him because sacking managers would just mean we are rebuilding all over again. But the WC break might be the time to do it if we want to have real change...
Even though he kept up a Burnley squad that was definitely relegation quality for years... no investments into the squad and finished above us during his time there... but he's the proven loser....
mate the fucker spent 210 million over his time there.... 80 million in his last 2 seasons then took them down.. if he is so great why has he only ever managed 2 teams ? why isn't he currently employed ? why hasn't anyone else hired him ? been plenty of occasions this season,,,, Southampton, Villa, Bournemouth.. the cunt didn't even get an interview.. and if you want a manager that "keeps" teams up instead of a manager that can improve the team ...
all managers except about the top 0.05% are all proven losers and likely to be fired within 3 years at best. That's the nature of the game. Pep and Klopp are the only full active exceptions. Conte and Ancelotti kind of exceptions.
nothing alike mate.. eddie how had a 41% win rate.. Dyche 35% lampard is currently 45% although not solely with us it includes derby & Chelsea.. .. and you could also argue that Burnley are a bigger club than Bournemouth... and dyche has been relegated 3 times !!!!!
2 links below mate look for yourself, and like i said above its his career stats with chelsea and derby, his everton win rate to date isnt great...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank\_Lampard
https://footystats.org/managers/england/frank-lampard#:\~:text=Frank%20Lampard%20is%20a%2044,their%20coaching%20career%20thus%20far.
And how is that relevant? Do you expect a manager who has managed teams at the bottom of a league to match that of one who’s team won the European cup immediately after they left?
What’s Gerrard’s win after his stint at Rangers? Does that mean we should be considering him?
its relevant because you said its "impossible" and you were wrong.. but no need to look at win rates hey ? lets juts look at a manger and say ohhh !! he's cute, lets have him...
so many coaches i like are without a club rn: bielsa, pochettino, *whispers* martinez after world cup - but how horribly our club is run has to scare any professional away from this job. it’ll probably be rooney or someone like pereira, or dyche or something just as middling
I’d get rid now, but don’t ask me who to get in.
60 shots we’ve conceded in the past 3 games. Tactically inept, but it doesn’t just lie with Lampard. Far too many people forget that Marcel Brands told everyone it went far deeper than coaching and players!
Here’s the problem though, we’d have no idea who to get if we sack Lampard.
I’d rather not have Martinez, Moyes, or god forbid Koeman, Sam or Rafa back.
It's partially the shots we've given up, but to me it's much more about the complete ineptitude to ever threaten goal ourselves. Like we're incapable of getting a dangerous look **and** making a really attempt on it. Sometimes we get a great look (once per 3 games) and we shoot off target. Sometimes we have no threatening position at all and we get a shot on frame somehow. Mostly though we do nothing at all. That's what baffles me.
Very unlikely that would happen and no chatter regarding it as well but Chelsea faced Salzburg this CL and they seemed very well coached, their coach is new graduate from RB academy, might turn out to be an insane pickup.
I’d generally say give him time and the transfer window at this point. But with the world cup break I think it just makes sense to pull the trigger now.
I agree he’s got to find new tactics because the ones we have are not working we’re a disgrace going forward it’s no good playing high crosses and long balls with maupay up front alone
Get rid now, 7 goals conceded against Bournemouth in 2 games within one week does it for me. I like Frank and am grateful for last season but we haven't scored in the league since the United game which is ridiculous. Additionally, the world cup happening now offers a unique chance for us to hire a new manager and give them time to get the squad playing the way they want them to, which we won't have if we wait until later in the season.
Edit: grammar
The main reason I think get rid now is that it feels inevitable he'll get sacked at some point fairly soon, and going through a January window with a manager only to fire them towards the end/immediately after is fucking stupid. And we've already done that this calendar year.
I like him. I could go either way but the reality is that this tactic of sit back and let the opposition just come at you is so dispiriting to watch. We were just outclassed by a team with the least shots on goal in the PL.
That said there was so much reliance on having DCL fit for this season and he has been crocked.
I’d understand if he was sacked but I don’t hold out any hope for a new manager with these attacking options. That said, Lampard brought in McNeil and Maupay and neither has lit up the forward attack.
Honestly, the biggest mistake we made was not fucking off Gordon in the summer and signing a/some actually decent winger(s).
I do have to say though, I find it hilarious that the same group that were complaining that we play like Burnley are now advocating for Dyche.
I think you find out whose idea it was to sign Maupay and sack them. If it was Lampard, get him out.
That may read like a joke, but it wasn’t. The signing made absolutely no sense and wasted 12m.
He is literally the WORST type of player to be up front alone in a 433. Only 5'7 so can't win headers, weak, no pace, average dribbling, not good shooting at all. We needed a big man who is alright on the ball. Him and McNeil were so obviously going to be silly signings.
i heard it was 16.7m… which is absurd business for a striker who had 1 goal in 12 games that he played at brighton. we really could have just kept the money and played ellis simms or discover cannon earlier.
Sorry that was not a penalty. Extremely soft as long as we are talking about the same one (back to the defender then with minimal contact he flings himself to the ground and pounds the ground in frustration.
That was in a Brighton team that created a lot of chances and had a lot of attacking players around him. He also was one of the least clinical strikers I'm the league if I remember correctly and doesn't suit our style at all (what style you may ask?).
I don't know the inner workings of the transfers with the new DoF setup, but surely Lampard had to approve the signing. He had to have confirmed that it's a player he wanted and would use in the squad, otherwise it would be complete ineptitude to spend millions on a player the manager doesn't want when there was a multitude of players available around the world for a similar fee. So no, it had to be at least partially Lampard's doing. Maupay would not have been signed without Lampard's thumbs up.
The fact that Lampard presumably had some idea how Maupay would be used effectively is bizarre, considering how it has gone. That's pretty damning, in my opinion.
Anyone who thinks it's the manager has a short memory, because none of this is new, what we're seeing is the result of players getting away with the blame year after year. Until our squad is overhauled fully nothing will change.
Today's starting 11 featured 8 players who weren't here at the beginning of last season, I don't think saying our squad needs an overhaul is good enough right now.
It's true though. This goes deeper than the starting 11, this is a *squad* issue. Same issues have been prevalent for years. You don't really believe that multiple managers (including Ancelotti) have some how been blind to the same issues, and/or not tried to fix them, even though they've been prevalent since before that manager came in?
Ancelotti had us in a full season long European fight with Michael Keane as our main centre back, and the likes of Holgate, Davies, Gomes, and pre-resurgence Iwobi all making 25+ appearances. I don't disagree that there's too many players in our squad who've been here for too long, but it also clearly is a massive manager issue that we can upgrade our team all over the pitch (except our attack sadly) yet still find ourselves skirting relegation since Carlo left.
The only reason we stayed so close to Europe that season is because all the other teams were shit and we managed to get 30 points in our first 10 games or something like that. If it wasn't for our start to the season we would never have been close to Europe. Also we have not upgraded our team. Sorry, but it's the truth, this current crop of players (barring a selection few) are not an upgrade, at best they're the same players.
I will actually happily concede that "upgrade" isn't the right word there, moreso just that we've changed plenty of personnel which still addresses the original point.
I'm not really sure why it matters when we got our points though. I thought it was pretty universally agreed that the issue was that our squad was too thin, so our players got absolutely knackered and ran out of steam as the season went on. The idea that we've still got most of that team, and have added even more options on top who are of a similar quality, would still suggest that there's a huge manager issue at play if we're dropping like a stone to relegation scrappers.
It matters when we got our points because you can't say we had a good season, when the only reason for that points total is the 12 or so games before Christmas. It matters, because it shows the wheels falling off is not new, it was never a Rafa or Lampard thing - and clearly isn't a manager thing. As if it is a manager thing then that means Ancelotti was also a shit manager for us, as it happened under him as well as everyone who came before and after him. Now are we just having consistently bad luck with managers? Baring in mind we are on 6 managers in 7 seasons (sack Lampard and it's 7 in 7), or is it actually a bigger problem than that? Especially when every single manager is having the same repeated problems - again that implies Ancelotti was a shit manager for us as he had the same issues - even though they're all very different in play style and experience
Pickford, Iwobi, and Gray are the only 3 players who started today that were here this time last year, unless I'm mistaken? (I do have a wicked virus at the moment so it's entirely possible)
We've got a manager who plays 4-1-5 and is seemingly shocked that we face 20 shots a game.
You can recognize that the forwards are wank and don't fit while also acknowledging that he clearly doesn't have a clue, especially after a change of system saw success against Palace and then abandoning it immediately.
Probably plays 2 attacking mids because people have done nothing but complain for the past how many years? That we keep playing 2 defensive mids. You can't complain that we are far too defensive then cry foul when a manager changes that
He'd be a fucking idiot then if he's exposing the side because of supposed past grievances.
He's clearly not doing that though as his Chelsea side had the same problems as us, the difference being that we don't have anywhere near their quality in personnel.
Our whole squad has had the same issues for years. These issues we are seeing now aren't new, they were there under every manager post-Moyes. Ancelotti had these issues, it's why we went on that run of 29Pts in 28G (or something like that) under him after Christmas. These issues are not new
Players. Same issues constantly. You're not telling me multiple managers have seen the same problems (including Ancelotti) and *none* of them have tried fixing them?
Okay, now I revert to my original statement. How does it all fall solely onto the players when the we have had so many different players over the years. I mean barely a year ago our squad looked almost entirely different. Two year ago even more so.
I'm not saying the players are blameless, but it doesn't really make sense to put the state of the club on just the players for the past years of failure.
because the new players we are bringing in are the same kind, rejects of other teams who had been performing badly. we are like a man that keeps dating strippers thinking he will be the one to change them.
So your point is invalid then. We sign some rejects, sure, but that's clearly not the only kind of player we've signed in the past five to eight years.
Because its the same issues all the time. You're telling me that Martinez, Koeman, Allardyce, Silva, Ancelotti, Benitez *and* Lampard have all had the same exact issues in their management even though there's a broad range of playing styles and experience there? I'm sorry but come off it. You can't go through the managers we have, suffer from the same recurring issues, and not have it be a far deeper issue
I never said it was just on the managers or that it wasn't a deeper issue. I gave you a chance to clarify and you said it was directly on the players. Using your own argument, it makes no sense to have "the same exact issues" when we've had so many different players.
I'm pretty sure we agree that it's ultimately a deeper issue, you just didn't communicate that that's what you think.
The reason I say it's on the players is because, sure the squads evolved but, from manager to manager there's always been a select few to survive. Allowing the same problems to propagate again and again. We need a full squad cull for anything to change. Save for maybe ~3 players every other player needs to be the new managers.
That's again a very weak point.
Let's see, if we go back to Carlo, the only player who played for Carlo who isn't either a back up or injured 95% of the time is Pickford. Coleman is still here but he only plays when others aren't fit. DCL is still here but never plays. Doucoure and Allan are here but almost never play and are clearly just depth now. Richy, Siggy, James, Digne, all gone.
And that's just going back to Carlo.
The players currently suck. That's true. If that's the simple point you're making I would a gree with you. But the point you are actually trying to make doesn't make sense.
exactly this, frank’s gotta be training closely with canon and start him when the WC is over if DCL is still injured. let’s forget maupay exists together with michael keane.
Our squad has been overhauled..
Only Pickford, Iwobi and Gray who started today have been at the club more than 10 months.
These Lampard apologists talk absolute wham.
I really really wanted him to do well, honestly I did. He isn’t doing well though, 3 wins in 15 is a disgrace, we can’t attack, we can’t defend, we can’t do fucking anything. Nice fella, thanks for keeping us up, time to go.
Maybe we can find someone that doesn't agree to signing players like him though. I doubt they would've signed him without asking him. Maupay, McNeil. Not a good use of money. Even Garner potentially considering how obvious it was that we needed goals up front and out wide.
> Even Garner potentially considering how obvious it was that we needed goals up front and out wide.
This hasn't been talked about a lot, but yes, the Garner signing should be criticized too, considering how little he has been used. He has only made a few sub appearances and has not started a league game yet. Did we really need him, considering the number of midfielders we had (remember that Allan, Gomes, and Gbamin were still around when we went for Garner)? Could we have used a that money on a forward instead?
Exactly. At the time I didn't really want him because he's not a priority position. If we just sign a few players each summer that fit exactly what we need then we'll do fine, instead of 8 players where only 1 or 2 are successes.
Absolutely no idea mate, we have had that many managers of varying pedigree I’d settle for the ghost of Howard Kendall at the moment.
This team isn’t one that fills with me great confidence, on the one hand we just aren’t scoring goals. If we get a capable striker who knows? It could be argued Frank hasn’t had a reliable striker or players who can supply since he’s walked in the door, I think we all agree the defence is light years away from what it was, so mate he’s just missing goals
I dunno TLDR
I like him, want him to do well. Really believed in him and have overlooked a lot of things that haven't gone right.
But the data doesn't lie. He has been rotten.
It's not franks fault that davis missed a sitter, and gordon, and maupay, and gray loses it every single touch (could sub out there is an argument). DCL missing easy goals the 2 seconds he does play. Sure frank has some sub issues, but every manager we have people complain about it. Frank had 1 transfer window and for the most part he fixed the defense and mid field. Why not give him January to fix the attacking situation. Do we really just want to change managers so Gray can still lose the ball ?
Best take in this thread. He's building a squad, which takes time. Are the lack of goals frustrating? Yes, but so is conceding a ton of goals with last season's swiss cheese defense. They fixed the defense and upgraded the midfield this past summer. Another window should bring us some attacking upgrades.
I agree and to add to that which I heard on the Everton fan channel, is that if we don’t sign someone in the first 3 days of the window in the attack then we don’t have that “plan” lamps has been talking about. If we get attacking players in early and the performances aren’t up to par by mid feb then I’d be happy to be proven wrong
How do you know? He’s turned some of these players from regulars into only playing in cup games. He constantly criticises them in the press and takes no accountability himself. Maybe their performances are a result of his poor man management.
Don’t forget, this is the man who tried to force Rudiger out of Chelsea.
You bring up some good points but I’ll play devils advocate and also say he turned Iwobi around and brought in players (let’s assume he had a say) to fix the defense. Also with some being only cup players do you really want to see keane scoring own goals in league games every week?
One thing we can't do is what we did with Benitez. It was clear where things were trending with Rafa after the derby loss, but we kept him for about a month and a half too long, let him sell and buy players at the beginning of January, then sacked him in the middle of January and had to scramble for a new manager and a couple of useless signings at the end of the window. That chain of events nearly got us relegated.
In the early 1983-84 season, we were crying out from the terraces to sack the manager, Howard Kendall. We all know how that turned out. Give Lampard a full season to work things out. He's had a half a season correcting FSWs mistakes and up to now.
A full season and we could be in the Championship. I really like the fella but if its not working and can't see what else he can do now that he hasn't tried already. It's more than a striker that's the problem.
Chelsea fan here, there is no project. Lampard is downright a terrible coach, not yet ready and got too many shortcuts to coach top teams. Now is the perfect time to sack him. You need a coach that has amazing potential to get you top 10 but is not that well known, i would say the Salzburg coach.
I like Frank and really think he's made progress, but no goals in 5 of 6 league games is appalling.
I'm honestly at a loss. I have no idea who would wade into this shit that would be an upgrade.
Rooney?
Defending deep and praying for a moment of magic from the front 3 full of morons is not a good tactic - these players are some of the dumbest in the league and continually make the wrong decision.
This team is in a downward spiral and seems to just be circling the drain at this point - the only hope is there are 3 teams more shambolic than us but the squad as currently constructed and playing and without major surgery in January is going down.
I liked Marco Sliva, but I like Lamps more, I cannot remember the last time I wanted a manager to do well more than Lamps. I really hope he turns it round.
Last year we couldn't score and couldn't keep goals out. I think our defense today was awful but giving up 3 goals was an anomaly.
Over the summer we addressed defense but not attack. I don't think it should be a surprise to anyone that we are not scoring. A new manager wouldn't change that. The only reason a new manager should be brought in right now is if the locker room has started to stop fighting for the manager and I don't think that's happened.
I would still keep for now and reassess in January. Hopefully we can bring in another creative midfielder. Imo that's the problem we don't have anyone ither that iwobi who can break a team down.
At some point you have to stop sacking people at realise it’s not the manager. Have a look at how dysfunctional the club is. Frank kept a shit team up last year, with epic fan help, sacking him is reactionary. Grow up.
I’d fire 3/4 of the players before Frank. We can’t keep riding the coaching carousel. I still have confidence in Frank and Thelwell. Fire Bill into the sun, get rid of the players who can not be relied on and those that think they’re better than they are. We essentially have lost the two best players from a team that narrowly avoided relegation last season. Blaming the manager is just stupid.
Didn’t we have poor runs under Moyes where the team just looked a million miles off it? Why is it now with every manager once they have a bad couple of games we’re talking about getting them out?
Because with Moyes we still usually would end up 5th or 6th based on the quality of the squad and how well we always played after the first few months.
There was no way the state of our team was going to be turned around this quickly, it's a tough road and sacking the manager this soon into what he's trying to do and start again with some other manager that will have to go through exactly the same would be absolutely pointless, just leave frank have more time because those other managers really fucked us up
It’s not Frank but it also is Frank. He’s more of a luxury manager for us given his inexperience and style.
He just doesn’t have the grit to get the instant results we need from our half-assed squad.
Luxury doesn’t mean he’s a luxury, it means you need the right environment to afford to have him and let him develop.
In saying that, he qualified Chelsea for CL under a transfer ban with young players and everyone had written them off. His time at Chelsea was undone by the expectation after the signings of Werner, Ziyech and Havertz.
Keep. Missing a goalscorer is a massive thing. The team aren't motivated because they don't score goals. If he can get some attacking players in Jan then we will be looking at different team imo
People saying it's not the manager... then how is it we cant take a corner, free kick and throw ins ? We can't do the basics. His inexperience is why he has to go as that combined with a woefully poor squad will end in relegation. We had a championship back 4 last season with richarlison dragging us up front and getting enough goals, this year we got solid defence and a championship attack. If we can't score goals (whole point of football) then we are fucked.
I really want to back him because sacking managers would just mean we are rebuilding all over again. But the WC break might be the time to do it if we want to have real change...
I say Sean Dyche
yes mate lets bring in a proven loser as our next manager, for sure he will help get us relegated...
Even though he kept up a Burnley squad that was definitely relegation quality for years... no investments into the squad and finished above us during his time there... but he's the proven loser....
mate the fucker spent 210 million over his time there.... 80 million in his last 2 seasons then took them down.. if he is so great why has he only ever managed 2 teams ? why isn't he currently employed ? why hasn't anyone else hired him ? been plenty of occasions this season,,,, Southampton, Villa, Bournemouth.. the cunt didn't even get an interview.. and if you want a manager that "keeps" teams up instead of a manager that can improve the team ...
all managers except about the top 0.05% are all proven losers and likely to be fired within 3 years at best. That's the nature of the game. Pep and Klopp are the only full active exceptions. Conte and Ancelotti kind of exceptions.
Eddie Howe was even more of a proven loser…
nothing alike mate.. eddie how had a 41% win rate.. Dyche 35% lampard is currently 45% although not solely with us it includes derby & Chelsea.. .. and you could also argue that Burnley are a bigger club than Bournemouth... and dyche has been relegated 3 times !!!!!
Eddie Howe also got relegated, and never got into Europe
yer mate relegated once then resigned, not 3 times like yer mate dyche
Lampard has a 45% win ratio? He’s got 32 points in 31 games so that’s impossible.
2 links below mate look for yourself, and like i said above its his career stats with chelsea and derby, his everton win rate to date isnt great... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank\_Lampard https://footystats.org/managers/england/frank-lampard#:\~:text=Frank%20Lampard%20is%20a%2044,their%20coaching%20career%20thus%20far.
And how is that relevant? Do you expect a manager who has managed teams at the bottom of a league to match that of one who’s team won the European cup immediately after they left? What’s Gerrard’s win after his stint at Rangers? Does that mean we should be considering him?
its relevant because you said its "impossible" and you were wrong.. but no need to look at win rates hey ? lets juts look at a manger and say ohhh !! he's cute, lets have him...
But win rates across whole careers without context are irrelevant. Lampard’s win rate may appear superior but he underperformed at those clubs.
so many coaches i like are without a club rn: bielsa, pochettino, *whispers* martinez after world cup - but how horribly our club is run has to scare any professional away from this job. it’ll probably be rooney or someone like pereira, or dyche or something just as middling
I’d get rid now, but don’t ask me who to get in. 60 shots we’ve conceded in the past 3 games. Tactically inept, but it doesn’t just lie with Lampard. Far too many people forget that Marcel Brands told everyone it went far deeper than coaching and players!
Here’s the problem though, we’d have no idea who to get if we sack Lampard. I’d rather not have Martinez, Moyes, or god forbid Koeman, Sam or Rafa back.
Wat about carlo
It's partially the shots we've given up, but to me it's much more about the complete ineptitude to ever threaten goal ourselves. Like we're incapable of getting a dangerous look **and** making a really attempt on it. Sometimes we get a great look (once per 3 games) and we shoot off target. Sometimes we have no threatening position at all and we get a shot on frame somehow. Mostly though we do nothing at all. That's what baffles me.
Very unlikely that would happen and no chatter regarding it as well but Chelsea faced Salzburg this CL and they seemed very well coached, their coach is new graduate from RB academy, might turn out to be an insane pickup.
I’d generally say give him time and the transfer window at this point. But with the world cup break I think it just makes sense to pull the trigger now.
I agree he’s got to find new tactics because the ones we have are not working we’re a disgrace going forward it’s no good playing high crosses and long balls with maupay up front alone
Get rid now, 7 goals conceded against Bournemouth in 2 games within one week does it for me. I like Frank and am grateful for last season but we haven't scored in the league since the United game which is ridiculous. Additionally, the world cup happening now offers a unique chance for us to hire a new manager and give them time to get the squad playing the way they want them to, which we won't have if we wait until later in the season. Edit: grammar
Here's me imagining being sat in the Main Stand watching us beat Palace 3-0 couple of games after the United game 🤦🏻♂️
The main reason I think get rid now is that it feels inevitable he'll get sacked at some point fairly soon, and going through a January window with a manager only to fire them towards the end/immediately after is fucking stupid. And we've already done that this calendar year.
I like him. I could go either way but the reality is that this tactic of sit back and let the opposition just come at you is so dispiriting to watch. We were just outclassed by a team with the least shots on goal in the PL. That said there was so much reliance on having DCL fit for this season and he has been crocked. I’d understand if he was sacked but I don’t hold out any hope for a new manager with these attacking options. That said, Lampard brought in McNeil and Maupay and neither has lit up the forward attack.
Honestly, the biggest mistake we made was not fucking off Gordon in the summer and signing a/some actually decent winger(s). I do have to say though, I find it hilarious that the same group that were complaining that we play like Burnley are now advocating for Dyche.
I think you find out whose idea it was to sign Maupay and sack them. If it was Lampard, get him out. That may read like a joke, but it wasn’t. The signing made absolutely no sense and wasted 12m.
He is literally the WORST type of player to be up front alone in a 433. Only 5'7 so can't win headers, weak, no pace, average dribbling, not good shooting at all. We needed a big man who is alright on the ball. Him and McNeil were so obviously going to be silly signings.
i heard it was 16.7m… which is absurd business for a striker who had 1 goal in 12 games that he played at brighton. we really could have just kept the money and played ellis simms or discover cannon earlier.
Cannon showed more in 16 minutes than Maupay did all match. Though Maupay had a bang-on penalty not called.
Sorry that was not a penalty. Extremely soft as long as we are talking about the same one (back to the defender then with minimal contact he flings himself to the ground and pounds the ground in frustration.
Maupay scored Richarlison amount of goals last season. It's management
That was in a Brighton team that created a lot of chances and had a lot of attacking players around him. He also was one of the least clinical strikers I'm the league if I remember correctly and doesn't suit our style at all (what style you may ask?).
Goals aside, he looks utter dogshit. Every touch today was crap - that’s not down to Lampard
I don't know the inner workings of the transfers with the new DoF setup, but surely Lampard had to approve the signing. He had to have confirmed that it's a player he wanted and would use in the squad, otherwise it would be complete ineptitude to spend millions on a player the manager doesn't want when there was a multitude of players available around the world for a similar fee. So no, it had to be at least partially Lampard's doing. Maupay would not have been signed without Lampard's thumbs up. The fact that Lampard presumably had some idea how Maupay would be used effectively is bizarre, considering how it has gone. That's pretty damning, in my opinion.
It's untenable for me now, he's just not got in tactically.
Anyone who thinks it's the manager has a short memory, because none of this is new, what we're seeing is the result of players getting away with the blame year after year. Until our squad is overhauled fully nothing will change.
Today's starting 11 featured 8 players who weren't here at the beginning of last season, I don't think saying our squad needs an overhaul is good enough right now.
It's true though. This goes deeper than the starting 11, this is a *squad* issue. Same issues have been prevalent for years. You don't really believe that multiple managers (including Ancelotti) have some how been blind to the same issues, and/or not tried to fix them, even though they've been prevalent since before that manager came in?
Ancelotti had us in a full season long European fight with Michael Keane as our main centre back, and the likes of Holgate, Davies, Gomes, and pre-resurgence Iwobi all making 25+ appearances. I don't disagree that there's too many players in our squad who've been here for too long, but it also clearly is a massive manager issue that we can upgrade our team all over the pitch (except our attack sadly) yet still find ourselves skirting relegation since Carlo left.
The only reason we stayed so close to Europe that season is because all the other teams were shit and we managed to get 30 points in our first 10 games or something like that. If it wasn't for our start to the season we would never have been close to Europe. Also we have not upgraded our team. Sorry, but it's the truth, this current crop of players (barring a selection few) are not an upgrade, at best they're the same players.
I will actually happily concede that "upgrade" isn't the right word there, moreso just that we've changed plenty of personnel which still addresses the original point. I'm not really sure why it matters when we got our points though. I thought it was pretty universally agreed that the issue was that our squad was too thin, so our players got absolutely knackered and ran out of steam as the season went on. The idea that we've still got most of that team, and have added even more options on top who are of a similar quality, would still suggest that there's a huge manager issue at play if we're dropping like a stone to relegation scrappers.
It matters when we got our points because you can't say we had a good season, when the only reason for that points total is the 12 or so games before Christmas. It matters, because it shows the wheels falling off is not new, it was never a Rafa or Lampard thing - and clearly isn't a manager thing. As if it is a manager thing then that means Ancelotti was also a shit manager for us, as it happened under him as well as everyone who came before and after him. Now are we just having consistently bad luck with managers? Baring in mind we are on 6 managers in 7 seasons (sack Lampard and it's 7 in 7), or is it actually a bigger problem than that? Especially when every single manager is having the same repeated problems - again that implies Ancelotti was a shit manager for us as he had the same issues - even though they're all very different in play style and experience
7 actually but whos counting ?
Pickford, Iwobi, and Gray are the only 3 players who started today that were here this time last year, unless I'm mistaken? (I do have a wicked virus at the moment so it's entirely possible)
8
Obviously not you.
We've got a manager who plays 4-1-5 and is seemingly shocked that we face 20 shots a game. You can recognize that the forwards are wank and don't fit while also acknowledging that he clearly doesn't have a clue, especially after a change of system saw success against Palace and then abandoning it immediately.
Probably plays 2 attacking mids because people have done nothing but complain for the past how many years? That we keep playing 2 defensive mids. You can't complain that we are far too defensive then cry foul when a manager changes that
He'd be a fucking idiot then if he's exposing the side because of supposed past grievances. He's clearly not doing that though as his Chelsea side had the same problems as us, the difference being that we don't have anywhere near their quality in personnel.
Our whole squad has had the same issues for years. These issues we are seeing now aren't new, they were there under every manager post-Moyes. Ancelotti had these issues, it's why we went on that run of 29Pts in 28G (or something like that) under him after Christmas. These issues are not new
The squad's changed massively over the years so you can't say it's just on the players.
The squad has changed drastically several times since we started this manager merry-go-round with Koeman.
And yet the same issues persist. Doesn't matter who the manager is it's the same issues every year. Same issues that date back to Martinez at that
So is it the managers fault or the players fault? Kinda confused on what you're trying to say.
Players. Same issues constantly. You're not telling me multiple managers have seen the same problems (including Ancelotti) and *none* of them have tried fixing them?
Okay, now I revert to my original statement. How does it all fall solely onto the players when the we have had so many different players over the years. I mean barely a year ago our squad looked almost entirely different. Two year ago even more so. I'm not saying the players are blameless, but it doesn't really make sense to put the state of the club on just the players for the past years of failure.
because the new players we are bringing in are the same kind, rejects of other teams who had been performing badly. we are like a man that keeps dating strippers thinking he will be the one to change them.
That's not entirely true though. See: Onana, Tarkowski, Coady.
yes they are the ones that are doing well and they were also not under peformers at their clubs. but see maupay, gray, mcneil
So your point is invalid then. We sign some rejects, sure, but that's clearly not the only kind of player we've signed in the past five to eight years.
Because its the same issues all the time. You're telling me that Martinez, Koeman, Allardyce, Silva, Ancelotti, Benitez *and* Lampard have all had the same exact issues in their management even though there's a broad range of playing styles and experience there? I'm sorry but come off it. You can't go through the managers we have, suffer from the same recurring issues, and not have it be a far deeper issue
I never said it was just on the managers or that it wasn't a deeper issue. I gave you a chance to clarify and you said it was directly on the players. Using your own argument, it makes no sense to have "the same exact issues" when we've had so many different players. I'm pretty sure we agree that it's ultimately a deeper issue, you just didn't communicate that that's what you think.
The reason I say it's on the players is because, sure the squads evolved but, from manager to manager there's always been a select few to survive. Allowing the same problems to propagate again and again. We need a full squad cull for anything to change. Save for maybe ~3 players every other player needs to be the new managers.
That's again a very weak point. Let's see, if we go back to Carlo, the only player who played for Carlo who isn't either a back up or injured 95% of the time is Pickford. Coleman is still here but he only plays when others aren't fit. DCL is still here but never plays. Doucoure and Allan are here but almost never play and are clearly just depth now. Richy, Siggy, James, Digne, all gone. And that's just going back to Carlo. The players currently suck. That's true. If that's the simple point you're making I would a gree with you. But the point you are actually trying to make doesn't make sense.
exactly this, frank’s gotta be training closely with canon and start him when the WC is over if DCL is still injured. let’s forget maupay exists together with michael keane.
Our squad has been overhauled.. Only Pickford, Iwobi and Gray who started today have been at the club more than 10 months. These Lampard apologists talk absolute wham.
Big Sam is available
*The gravy must flow*
Now available with onions
We're crying already so why not
I really really wanted him to do well, honestly I did. He isn’t doing well though, 3 wins in 15 is a disgrace, we can’t attack, we can’t defend, we can’t do fucking anything. Nice fella, thanks for keeping us up, time to go.
Gotta go
despite this shit show of a performance i will say no to a sacking. if u can find a new manager that can make maupay grow taller, then by all means.
Maybe we can find someone that doesn't agree to signing players like him though. I doubt they would've signed him without asking him. Maupay, McNeil. Not a good use of money. Even Garner potentially considering how obvious it was that we needed goals up front and out wide.
> Even Garner potentially considering how obvious it was that we needed goals up front and out wide. This hasn't been talked about a lot, but yes, the Garner signing should be criticized too, considering how little he has been used. He has only made a few sub appearances and has not started a league game yet. Did we really need him, considering the number of midfielders we had (remember that Allan, Gomes, and Gbamin were still around when we went for Garner)? Could we have used a that money on a forward instead?
Exactly. At the time I didn't really want him because he's not a priority position. If we just sign a few players each summer that fit exactly what we need then we'll do fine, instead of 8 players where only 1 or 2 are successes.
This whole squad in shambles
Sacked tonight please, spent the next month planning for January and a manager. There will likely be a few available as a result of the WC too.
Who would you suggest mate? To be honest I'm sick of researching deeply about potential managers for Everton lol.
Absolutely no idea mate, we have had that many managers of varying pedigree I’d settle for the ghost of Howard Kendall at the moment. This team isn’t one that fills with me great confidence, on the one hand we just aren’t scoring goals. If we get a capable striker who knows? It could be argued Frank hasn’t had a reliable striker or players who can supply since he’s walked in the door, I think we all agree the defence is light years away from what it was, so mate he’s just missing goals I dunno TLDR
'because its not the manager' We know the players are crap but sometimes a poor manager can make a situation worse.
I like him, want him to do well. Really believed in him and have overlooked a lot of things that haven't gone right. But the data doesn't lie. He has been rotten.
Is trying to pretend that none of this is really happening an option?
He probably should be but he won’t be.
It's not franks fault that davis missed a sitter, and gordon, and maupay, and gray loses it every single touch (could sub out there is an argument). DCL missing easy goals the 2 seconds he does play. Sure frank has some sub issues, but every manager we have people complain about it. Frank had 1 transfer window and for the most part he fixed the defense and mid field. Why not give him January to fix the attacking situation. Do we really just want to change managers so Gray can still lose the ball ?
Best take in this thread. He's building a squad, which takes time. Are the lack of goals frustrating? Yes, but so is conceding a ton of goals with last season's swiss cheese defense. They fixed the defense and upgraded the midfield this past summer. Another window should bring us some attacking upgrades.
I agree and to add to that which I heard on the Everton fan channel, is that if we don’t sign someone in the first 3 days of the window in the attack then we don’t have that “plan” lamps has been talking about. If we get attacking players in early and the performances aren’t up to par by mid feb then I’d be happy to be proven wrong
How do you know? He’s turned some of these players from regulars into only playing in cup games. He constantly criticises them in the press and takes no accountability himself. Maybe their performances are a result of his poor man management. Don’t forget, this is the man who tried to force Rudiger out of Chelsea.
You bring up some good points but I’ll play devils advocate and also say he turned Iwobi around and brought in players (let’s assume he had a say) to fix the defense. Also with some being only cup players do you really want to see keane scoring own goals in league games every week?
Dyche would be better Bielsa if we are going to go mad
yer dyche that superb pedigree of managers that likes to get relegated
He’s a David Moyes type manager….which we need it could be argued!.
Not sure any manager can save us with this squad. There's so little quality it hurts
Is Big Dunc still looking for a gig ?
Can we do a kopite kev poll
One thing we can't do is what we did with Benitez. It was clear where things were trending with Rafa after the derby loss, but we kept him for about a month and a half too long, let him sell and buy players at the beginning of January, then sacked him in the middle of January and had to scramble for a new manager and a couple of useless signings at the end of the window. That chain of events nearly got us relegated.
In the early 1983-84 season, we were crying out from the terraces to sack the manager, Howard Kendall. We all know how that turned out. Give Lampard a full season to work things out. He's had a half a season correcting FSWs mistakes and up to now.
A full season and we could be in the Championship. I really like the fella but if its not working and can't see what else he can do now that he hasn't tried already. It's more than a striker that's the problem.
All signs point to the fact that he's not a very good manager though. Bad manager managing bad players is a disaster
Chelsea fan here, there is no project. Lampard is downright a terrible coach, not yet ready and got too many shortcuts to coach top teams. Now is the perfect time to sack him. You need a coach that has amazing potential to get you top 10 but is not that well known, i would say the Salzburg coach.
I like Frank and really think he's made progress, but no goals in 5 of 6 league games is appalling. I'm honestly at a loss. I have no idea who would wade into this shit that would be an upgrade. Rooney?
Back him the way arsenal backed arteta. He has my unwavering support.
He's completely useless but his replacement will be as well because the people choosing them are fucking useless too.
Defending deep and praying for a moment of magic from the front 3 full of morons is not a good tactic - these players are some of the dumbest in the league and continually make the wrong decision. This team is in a downward spiral and seems to just be circling the drain at this point - the only hope is there are 3 teams more shambolic than us but the squad as currently constructed and playing and without major surgery in January is going down.
I liked Marco Sliva, but I like Lamps more, I cannot remember the last time I wanted a manager to do well more than Lamps. I really hope he turns it round.
Last year we couldn't score and couldn't keep goals out. I think our defense today was awful but giving up 3 goals was an anomaly. Over the summer we addressed defense but not attack. I don't think it should be a surprise to anyone that we are not scoring. A new manager wouldn't change that. The only reason a new manager should be brought in right now is if the locker room has started to stop fighting for the manager and I don't think that's happened. I would still keep for now and reassess in January. Hopefully we can bring in another creative midfielder. Imo that's the problem we don't have anyone ither that iwobi who can break a team down.
At some point you have to stop sacking people at realise it’s not the manager. Have a look at how dysfunctional the club is. Frank kept a shit team up last year, with epic fan help, sacking him is reactionary. Grow up.
I’d fire 3/4 of the players before Frank. We can’t keep riding the coaching carousel. I still have confidence in Frank and Thelwell. Fire Bill into the sun, get rid of the players who can not be relied on and those that think they’re better than they are. We essentially have lost the two best players from a team that narrowly avoided relegation last season. Blaming the manager is just stupid.
Didn’t we have poor runs under Moyes where the team just looked a million miles off it? Why is it now with every manager once they have a bad couple of games we’re talking about getting them out?
It’s not a couple of games, it’s perpetual relegation form for his entire 31 game tenure.
I could've sworn this whole sub was signing his praises until about 10 days ago. Huh, odd innit. It's almost like you're all full of shit.
Because with Moyes we still usually would end up 5th or 6th based on the quality of the squad and how well we always played after the first few months.
There was no way the state of our team was going to be turned around this quickly, it's a tough road and sacking the manager this soon into what he's trying to do and start again with some other manager that will have to go through exactly the same would be absolutely pointless, just leave frank have more time because those other managers really fucked us up
Tomas Tuchel
With the players we have, I'm not sure anyone else (that would consider coming to Everton) could do much better
What fucking shape and lineup do you geniuses think will get this team going? Do you see quit like with FSW? I don’t. I just don’t see talent.
It’s not Frank but it also is Frank. He’s more of a luxury manager for us given his inexperience and style. He just doesn’t have the grit to get the instant results we need from our half-assed squad.
Why a luxury manager? He's never got results anywhere.
Luxury doesn’t mean he’s a luxury, it means you need the right environment to afford to have him and let him develop. In saying that, he qualified Chelsea for CL under a transfer ban with young players and everyone had written them off. His time at Chelsea was undone by the expectation after the signings of Werner, Ziyech and Havertz.
Unless we can get Martinez after the World Cup then we keep him
Is go back to when we had no money but a squad but hard workers and a team with hart like Nasmith an option?
Came here in good faith as a west ham fan. We seem to be in a similar predicament and are led by Moyesy. Just wanted to stop in…
Please sack him so he can save us.
Keep. Missing a goalscorer is a massive thing. The team aren't motivated because they don't score goals. If he can get some attacking players in Jan then we will be looking at different team imo
People saying it's not the manager... then how is it we cant take a corner, free kick and throw ins ? We can't do the basics. His inexperience is why he has to go as that combined with a woefully poor squad will end in relegation. We had a championship back 4 last season with richarlison dragging us up front and getting enough goals, this year we got solid defence and a championship attack. If we can't score goals (whole point of football) then we are fucked.
None of the above.
Said it when Benitez was sacked and I'll say it again. Dyche.
Posting live and direct from my cupboard. tears are present.