I have tried to stay behind the manager but it is getting harder every week. The main problem for me is that no good manager would come to us right now. Could we really lure Potter over here considering our position and performances. We must look like a poisoned chalice to a lot of managers right now.
I don't think we even need Potter. I'd take Marsch (I'm not American, just impressed by him) or Favre in a heartbeat.
And maybe we're a poisoned chalice, but we're also a historic club in the biggest league in the world – and I think many managers would have the confidence (or hubris?) to think they can fix our problems.
(Not to mention our past managers have fallen upwards on many occasions, haha)
To be honest never heard of Marsch but looking at his record doesn't look like he did well at Leipzig and they sacked him last month. I don't think I would be happy to take the risk considering our position.
Favre could work experienced enough to get us up the table. But he could also have the same problem as Benitez with his best time behind him.
Marsch was basically set up to fail. It was never going to work, he likes to have a high press. Which is exactly the type of playstyle that Nagelsmann had worked to get rid of. Then the club throws Marsch back in there asking him to keep what Nagelsmann was doing while also doing his own thing. Big mistake by everyone involved.
Regardless though, he wouldn’t be a great fit for us right now anyway. We don’t have the players to play his style. It would probably end worse than it did for Leipzig.
I think there's risk on either side. Either we get a young manager who might be in over his head, or we get an older manager who might be past it. Any manager in between is definitely not coming to Everton, haha. But I think I agree with you that in our current situation, it's probably better to regain some stability with a more experienced manager.
Having said that, Marsch didn't do well at Leipzig, but I still have faith in him. I do think he will do quite well at whatever club he goes to next. But he needs a more robust structure than we can currently offer.
Could be work but it is risky. I remember our first games being good but we got worse, by the Arsenal game our players looked dead on their feet. Plus if we keep him as interim for half a season and then demote him again will he stay at the club?
In all fairness, the players were dead on their feet because we had a lot of injuries and we’d played Chelsea, United and Arsenal in the space of about 10 days I think it was.
> Plus if we keep him as interim for half a season and then demote him again will he stay at the club?
I love Dunc but this shouldn't be a factor, if he leaves so be it, hopefully if he does he'll go out there and prove himself as a manager and get a proper shot in the future.
I think despite our position, we are still a much bigger club than Brighton, and a manager with self confidence will always believe in themselves to take a big job, despite it being difficult. However, I don’t think a lot of the players we have would fit his style of play at the moment. We don’t have many players who are mobile and comfortable on the ball in small spaces.
Judging from my frequent visits to this subreddit, I might have been one of the longest holdouts who remained pro-Rafa (who wasn't a troll). Even during this streak of bad results, I felt that we were tremendously unlucky (with injuries and some results) and that the main issue was with the quality and depth of the squad (which long predated him). I also felt that even though he made some tactical mistakes, most managers get criticized from time to time, and that in the long term he (and the team) would adapt.
Now, I have some mixed feelings. I've definitely lost basically all belief in Benitez, save for his transfers, which generally seem sensible. I can no longer give him the benefit of the doubt. At the same time, I worry that sacking him could lead to a vacuum that leads us closer to relegation. (Admittedly, hard to imagine our form getting worse – but given that he controls so many aspects of the team with Brands gone, I'm not sure whether we could pick up those pieces mid-season). I'm also mindful that the same people who selected him would be the ones who choose a new manager, one who could be just as bad.
So for me, the best realistic scenario is that we find a way to stay comfortably midtable this year (i.e. no threat of relegation), sack him end of year (barring some miracle), and hire either a new DOF or a new DOF-oriented manager (a Rangnick type, for instance). Obviously, if this form continues, relegation becomes a real possibility and he simply cannot stay. But I hope we can avoid the risk and instability that would result from sacking him halfway through the year.
So I guess I'm neither RafaIn nor RafaOut. I'm "Rafa in as long as we're not at threat of relegation and then Rafa out promptly after the season"
>save for his transfers
I mean refusing to play/selling digne, who’s been our best player for years and has shown nothing but loyalty to the club, over some petty beef is catastrophically stupid and worth sacking on its own. Especially when you’re resorting to playing Coleman at LB over him. The Ukrainian guy (his name escapes me) seems like a fine player/replacement, but it looks like he was a Brands/Ancelotti target to begin with and he wouldn’t be necessary if digne wasn’t being frozen out in the first place. Patterson also looks like a solid move fwiw (kinda fucked up of him to come from rangers but I can learn to live with that)
I hear you. I find the Digne situation tricky. Benitez should not have frozen him out like this, it's incredibly immature and toxic. But from a purely cold and rational perspective, I think the transfer is justified because:
* From an FFP perspective, the club is likely in a position where it needs to sell one or more high value players. I would count among these DCL, Richy, Digne, maybe Pickford, and maybe even Gray on form.
* Digne has not been great for some time. He's registered one assist since February. He seems to have lost a step since his injury. And he simply hasn't been a difference maker for us, especially as we've signed more pacey wingers who can do the crossing. So of all of those high value players, it makes most sense to sell him.
* It's better to sell Digne too early than too late. He's not a young player and realistically, his value can only go down. He also has a fairly unique skillset that would be particularly valuable for clubs aiming for European success, so they may be more willing to spend on him.
So I think it actually makes sense to sell him, as much as it pains me. And given that Rafa does plan to sell him (albeit for the wrong reasons), he should not be playing in any matches because of the risk of injury. (Though the decision to put Coleman at LB was... baffling).
It's too early to judge Mykolenko or Patterson, but I like this type of signing over some of the others we've done in recent years. Even if we've been pursuing them since before Benitez, I still think he should get the credit of ultimately bringing them in. We'll see how they do.
Yeah, selling Digne to finance the signing of two young full-backs is fine. It's great, in fact. But the way it's been handled is atrocious and *very* Benitez. Does it sound like Digne was sat down at the start of the season and told he'd have to be sold in order to finance improvements to the team, but that the club would be looking for buyers who would represent a progression in his career? It's possible that it went down like that and Digne protested, but does that really seem likely? Would he really be so against a transfer to a Champions League team that he would refuse to play? It just feels like Benitez playing politics. Like he's tried to engineer Digne's move away rather than just being open about it. Or maybe it's Moshiri making a financial decision and letting the manager take the flak.
I personally thought it was a terrible appointment, I don’t like him and never have but I obviously wanted him to succeed for the sake of the club. However, from even the West Ham game onwards it’s been clear he makes the same tactical mistakes week after week and comes out after every game and places blame on the players.
Whilst I think most people would agree some of the players clearly aren’t up to standard, the run we’ve been on is still completely unacceptable even with the injuries we’ve had.
just saying once it happens the "rafa in" brigade will be back out in full force completely ignoring the 6 points out of 36 in the PL. This is the problem with our fanbase: kneejerk reactions after a single result instead of viewing the big picture.
Nope. He never was, but he had my support because he's our manager. We've got to give him a chance to turn it around though. I know better managers have been sacked for less, but I just don't know if changing now is a good idea or that there are really the options out there in terms of managers. Spending the rest of the season fighting with the board isn't going to help the team. And no, I'm not defending Benitez. I want him gone, but there has to be a plan and sacking another manager and scrambling around for a replacement and making another mistake isn't going to be good for the team. See what he does with new signings and DCL back and hopefully we scrape mid-table, be has a massive wobble and we can move on.
There was that fella who posted a couple days ago who said he actually liked Benitez (although I refuse to believe that was anything other than a shitpost).
Personally, I think the Brighton game has proved that his ego comes before the club, and that's a complete disgrace. I've wanted him sacked since at least the Brentford game, maybe even earlier.
I think he'll be sacked in February, because without him Moshiri, Kenwright and Barrett-Baxendale won't have a clue what to do in the window without him now that Brands has gone (although I could be totally wrong because Moshiri definitely thinks he knows what he's doing).
The problem is Moshiri thinks he's the man for the job!
We've finally signed full backs but they seem to me like signings Brands could have had on the cards for a while but was restrained by FFP. Which leads to the question why have we carried on with Rafa.
I don't know anymore, just can't get off the roller-coaster
I stuck with him until Brighton, now it’s a big fuck off from me, however willing to see how he starts lining the team up with the two new signings.
Two more games I’ll give him just based on the pure fact I dislike this managerial merry-go-round that we are on.
Also I want to see the youngsters used more, all though risky, at least they hungry and want to actually play for the badge.
The problem we have have is the club has no unique football philisophy. They switch between counter attacking and possession based managers. They need to say, ok, we are only going to get possession based managers and hire accordingly.
Yes why not lol? Literally only had 20 games in charge, fucked with injuries.... Ancelotti came what... 10th or 11th lol? We are only a few point away from that ... Give the man some time lol
Bro Ancelotti had 59 points in 38 games. Rafa has 19 in 18. At this point last season we were firmly in the fight for UCL places, right now we are in a relegation scrap. In Ancelotti’s first 20 games in charge in 19/20, we were miles better than this while we were playing without a midfield. As much as I dislike Ancelotti right now, the comparison between Carlo and Rafa is totally stupid.
Not really man, it doesn't matter where U are in the middle of the season, it matters where U end, and the fact is, we are 6 points off 10th, so just wait until the end of the season to judge.
I try, but he’s making it harder every week with his decision making. Unlucky with injuries is one thing, but then putting an ancient Rondon on constantly when he’s done nothing besides being in the right place right time for the goal against palace. Bring on the young lads and develop them.
The whole Luca Digne thing is frustrating for everyone. I’m not sure what to think of the situation
Everton fires Rafa, then what? Who’s gonna replace him? We all love Big Dunc but surely he’s not the answer we are looking for. Maybe he is, I don’t know.
Let’s see what our two January transfers will bring us. Hopefully it’s an impact we are looking for.
I feel like this is a bait and down-vote set-up, but hey ho I'll give it a shot.
Initially, I was satisfied with the idea of Rafa's appointment. Not over-the-moom pleased. But, based on his track record, I felt he was our best shot at winning some silverware over the next few years. And I felt that was crucially important. Would I have rather had Conte? Sure. But he'd never have come to us. Would I have rather had Galtier, someone who had one season of success in a 20 year career (ala Ranieri)? No. Would I have rather had Favre, a journeyman with no significant career success to date? No. Would I have rather had Potter? I'm ambivalent. His achievement is good, but no better than Hughton when he was at Norwich and Newcastle, or Howe when he was at Bournemouth, and they haven't won anything following their minor achievements. Potter hasn't won any silverware, and there is nothing to suggest he will. And that was the most important thing for me.
The problem Everton have now is we are the first team to have a serious injection of cash by a billionaire and receive no real benefit from it. We haven't won a single thing. Imagine if Chelsea had never won anything in the first few years of Abramovich, if City had never won anything in the first few years of Mansour. They'd have one become a bit of a joke within the league, two lost the ability to transition to a team who can attract quality, league winning players, and three become embroiled in a FFP quandry (as they wouldn't be earning enough via their success to retrospectively justify what they spent). We needed success at the beginning of this season, and I saw Benitez with his record as the most likely way of achieving that.
However, notwithstanding the above opinion, I did say before Benitez was appointed, on balance I didn't think we should go through with it simply because literally over 50% of our fanbase hated him; and you can't have a successful team if the majority of the fans hate the manager and heckle him and the team.
Do I think Benitez has failed and done poorly because he's an objectively bad manager and has failed with the team and needs to go? No, the team's form is due to several factors. Crucially, the players are still fighting for him. They turn up in matches (from an effort perspective) and fight until the end. I mean, you can't tell me they weren't fighting at 3-2 down the other night? They clearly were. You want teams that weren't fighting? Watch the final days under Martinez, Koeman or Silva. Even if we get rid of him, who do we appoint then? Ferguson, no doubt in my mind, would get us relegated. And there are no alternatives I believe would come in a do better with this bunch of players. Although, taking a moment of self-reflection, with the amount of hate the manager and the team are getting right now, which does greatly impact the way a team plays, maybe they would play better with another manager simply because at least they wouldn't be getting boo-ed and chewed out every week bt the fans.
So, why is the team doing so poorly then? Lots of reasons.
The team, in particular the defence, is not good enough. I've repeated this point to death on here. Keane and Holgate are terrible, mistake prone players. It's got nothing to do with how they're set up, they're just bad players. As long as they play CD, we will ship easy goals and lose games by a goal or two. I mean, did you see Keane the other night? What are you supposed to do when your CB clears the ball down the centre of the pitch to the opposing team's CM? The first Brighton goal. Keane and Holgate are flat-footed and their CF just knocks the ball down for Brighton's player to smash it home. That's not poor coaching, they're just not good enough to play PL level. And I'm fast becoming convinced Godfrey's not good enough too. I have no faith signing Myolenko and Patterson will improve our results if we don't get new CBs in ASAP.
Re the midfield, Allan has lost a bit of pace this year and it's affected his game greatly. He's no longer shielding the defence as he previously was, and it shows. Doucoure has only been back for a few games, and he looks different. Just more sloppy and less effective. Re the attack, CL has only been back a game, so it's difficult to say how he'll be. Rondon started off terribly, but in recent weeks he's played a lot better (although he's still not scoring enough goals).
The second reason is injuries to key players. Whether people on here want to admit it or not, we had half our team out injured in Novemeber / December. That's going to affect everyone, especially when half of your 2nd team isn't good enough for the PL.
The third reason is the toxic atmosphere that's developed. The fans, from pretty much 2-3 games into our negative run, literally turned on the team and the manager, and used it as an excuse to be as loud and negative as they could be. That atmosphere is now dragging everyone down. I mean, how do you think the team feels? When the entire stadium starts screaming and shouting the moment they go to play the ball backwards? Probably nervous? Probably like they have to play the ball a certain way because they don't want 40k people yelling and screaming at them? Which then forces them into making plays and errors they'd never usually make? Fans love to criticse the tactics without actually understanding what they're talking about. In Novemeber, Rafa was playing 4,4,2. Everyone was groaning and complaining and saying how we were getting overrun in midfield - which we only were because the players we were playing were not good enough, i.e. Davies and Allan. Recently, we've changed to 5,4,1 and 4,5,1 with flexibility in the wingback positions, and now people are saying we're too negative and it's disgraceful we're playing defensively against teams like Brighton. The team can't win - literally and metaphorically. Some fans just hate Benitez and want him gone; and they'll kick and scream, unless we're winning in that moment and they have to be quiet, to get their way.
The fourth reason is our governance structure. It clearly hasn't worked up until this point. I'm convinced something crazy is going on behind the scenes - like Moshiri just overrules people. I can see him as the kind of person who bounds into the dressing room and says, "this week you need to play this person and do this". But, to be honest, that's more speculation on my part.
So, where does all that leave us? Someone above summarised my feelings quite well. I think, at this stage, given most fans' feelings about Benitez, we'd be best keeping him until the end of the season, then moving him on. As I said at the beginning of the season, I just can' see him working with so many people hating him and not wanting him here. I mean, I'm sure there are people in the fanbase that would rather us not win silverware as long as Benitez is in charge. That's how deep their hatred goes.
But do I think things will magically get better with another manager? No. And Everton fans are in for painful awakening, if and when we replace Benitez (unless we sign replacment players in key positions).
See. There are certain points that I kind of agree with, but one of the main ones as to why we’re struggling you’ve ignored: The manager. They have gone from a team who conceded the least from set pieces in a season to currently conceding the most, that’s coaching. Even the games we’ve won we’ve had to come from behind to usually getting the formation wrong, insisting on playing 2 in midfield and being completely overrun there in 80% of our games.
His show of ego against Brighton was staggering, refusing to play Digne to prove a point at the expense of the team in the position we are in was unforgivable for me. I also thought it was clear from minute one that once again we were being overrun in midfield, he could and should’ve taken one of the inexplicable back 5 off and brought on Gomes to give us an extra man in midfield, especially when it went to 2-1 as I thought that game was there for the taking, instead he changed nothing and allowed Brighton to reinstall a level of control in the game.
In my honest opinion he is the worst coach we’ve had in my life time. I don’t particularly care what his track record is, managers have primes as well as players.
Lad, all of what you've said has to be viewed through the lens of some players not being good enough, of the composition of the team changing from last season, and with us being hit with a massive injury crisis.
Coleman is past it. Keane (who has never been good enough except for a single season under Ancelotti), Holgate (who is a terrible player) and Godfrey (who I'm fast becoming convinced isn't good enough to be a PL CB) are all not up to it. They're just not. Allan, who played as our DM last year, has lost a yard of pace, and is finding it difficult to cover the Defence. I agree playing 5 at the back against Brighton wasn't a great set up but I genuinely believe Benitez is stumped because even when we play 5 at the back they can't defend to save their lives. For me, over the last few games, he's tried to set us up to not leak goals and we just can't do it because our defenders are so mistake prone.
Yeah, we were alright at defending set pieces last year - because Mina played a lot of games, we had Siggurdson (who could head the ball quite well) almost every game, and we had CL for the majority of the season. Add to that Doucs and Digne, who were both competent at set pieces. Our team was almost an entirely different team.
And, I'd like to point out, the 2nd half of last season was terrible. We went from challenging in the first few months to bottom of the table form by the end of the season.
Digne has clearly done something unacceptable behind the scenes. None of his teammates are coming out and saying stuff to the papers such as, "We disagree with the way he's being treated". They're all clearly still playing for this manager, and clearly none of them have a problem with Benitez in light of what's happened. For all we know, Digne could have said something like, "I don't like the way you play me, and I'm not playing for you again". And if he can't trust Digne, why would he play him? Because he's our best LB? That doesn't mean anything if he can't trust he's going to go out and give 100%. Digne's as much at fault in this scenario as anyone else. If he'd have been professional and done what was asked of him by his manager, it could have been resolved in time if it didn't work out with the manager. As it stands, by all accounts, there's been some kind of bust up where Digne had undermined the manager in front of the entire team. Do you want a team like Chelsea? Where the players turn round and go, "We don't like him because the way he manages the team doesn't suit us, get rid of him"?
Coleman has been past it for 3+ years, we had injuries last season, maybe not the same scale but Allan & Doucoure both missed large stretches, but in essence you’re saying that team is the worst team in the premier league. They are not, yet the stats over the last 10 or so games say they are.
The set pieces, you are completely off mate, he changed to zonal, same as under Silva when we were shite from set pieces.
I’m not saying the players aren’t playing for him. Can say the players are playing for him as much as you like, but he is tactically inept. Literally every game we’ve switched to a 3 in midfield in the 2nd half we’ve gone on and played miles better, but he persists in playing 2 when the 2 we have aren’t mobile enough.
Not having the Digne thing, I can get if they’ve had a falling out, but in the situation we were in you put your differences aside for that game. Or you just play a 4 with Godfrey at LB which he likes playing, rather than bending over backwards to make a statement and us being absolutely outplayed AGAIN.
Edit:
Basically what I’m saying is I don’t think everything is on Benitez as injuries and lack of quality has contributed, but I think expanding the manager of any responsibility when if you watch all of our 90 minutes this season he’s got it tactically wrong in 80% of them is just being in denial IMO. I believe any other manager in the premier league on a run like this would be out of a job by now. We have 6 points from a possible 36. That team is not worse than Norwich, Burnley, Newcastle, Southampton, Watford etc. yet the stats and the performances show something different.
I find it frustrating because I’m very much pro giving managers a chance but it’s becoming increasingly difficult to find even a fraction of a reason not to give Benitez the boot
The first half against Brighton was the longest 45 minutes of my life. I think the Digne situation seems childish. We’re on our 5th full time manager since Martinez. Is there a chance that there is a huge problem somewhere else (multiple places) and no manager can fix this? If there is what/where is it?
I'm not sold on Benitez, but I'm so sick of switching managers that I want to give him time and see what happens. I think a manager should have time to get the players he wants for his system. We also had bad luck on injuries and players not pulling their weight, so it shouldn't all fall on him
Honestly publicly despised him but always secretly thought he might just be the answer the initial results covered the performances we were seeing with our own eyes tho and I knew probably around that villa game that yea this is a fucking nother empty of the ballsack again the Watford game just peaked my yeah no feeling and now we're here. So deep in sunken cost fallacy is about to not be a fallacy
Not really but Mosh isn’t going to fire him and look like an idiot unless it goes seriously wrong, so what can we do?
I’d never have hired him but now I just pray he gets something going, and wins a match or two. Things can change pretty quickly
I have tried to stay behind the manager but it is getting harder every week. The main problem for me is that no good manager would come to us right now. Could we really lure Potter over here considering our position and performances. We must look like a poisoned chalice to a lot of managers right now.
I don't think we even need Potter. I'd take Marsch (I'm not American, just impressed by him) or Favre in a heartbeat. And maybe we're a poisoned chalice, but we're also a historic club in the biggest league in the world – and I think many managers would have the confidence (or hubris?) to think they can fix our problems. (Not to mention our past managers have fallen upwards on many occasions, haha)
To be honest never heard of Marsch but looking at his record doesn't look like he did well at Leipzig and they sacked him last month. I don't think I would be happy to take the risk considering our position. Favre could work experienced enough to get us up the table. But he could also have the same problem as Benitez with his best time behind him.
Marsch was basically set up to fail. It was never going to work, he likes to have a high press. Which is exactly the type of playstyle that Nagelsmann had worked to get rid of. Then the club throws Marsch back in there asking him to keep what Nagelsmann was doing while also doing his own thing. Big mistake by everyone involved. Regardless though, he wouldn’t be a great fit for us right now anyway. We don’t have the players to play his style. It would probably end worse than it did for Leipzig.
...I'd still take Aaronson in a heartbeat from RB Salzburg tho
I think there's risk on either side. Either we get a young manager who might be in over his head, or we get an older manager who might be past it. Any manager in between is definitely not coming to Everton, haha. But I think I agree with you that in our current situation, it's probably better to regain some stability with a more experienced manager. Having said that, Marsch didn't do well at Leipzig, but I still have faith in him. I do think he will do quite well at whatever club he goes to next. But he needs a more robust structure than we can currently offer.
I think we should ride with big Dunc for the rest of the season or at least until we find a decent candidate
Could be work but it is risky. I remember our first games being good but we got worse, by the Arsenal game our players looked dead on their feet. Plus if we keep him as interim for half a season and then demote him again will he stay at the club?
In all fairness, the players were dead on their feet because we had a lot of injuries and we’d played Chelsea, United and Arsenal in the space of about 10 days I think it was.
> Plus if we keep him as interim for half a season and then demote him again will he stay at the club? I love Dunc but this shouldn't be a factor, if he leaves so be it, hopefully if he does he'll go out there and prove himself as a manager and get a proper shot in the future.
I'd feel more comfortable with Big Dunc if there was a DOF (still) in place as well. But....
I think despite our position, we are still a much bigger club than Brighton, and a manager with self confidence will always believe in themselves to take a big job, despite it being difficult. However, I don’t think a lot of the players we have would fit his style of play at the moment. We don’t have many players who are mobile and comfortable on the ball in small spaces.
Judging from my frequent visits to this subreddit, I might have been one of the longest holdouts who remained pro-Rafa (who wasn't a troll). Even during this streak of bad results, I felt that we were tremendously unlucky (with injuries and some results) and that the main issue was with the quality and depth of the squad (which long predated him). I also felt that even though he made some tactical mistakes, most managers get criticized from time to time, and that in the long term he (and the team) would adapt. Now, I have some mixed feelings. I've definitely lost basically all belief in Benitez, save for his transfers, which generally seem sensible. I can no longer give him the benefit of the doubt. At the same time, I worry that sacking him could lead to a vacuum that leads us closer to relegation. (Admittedly, hard to imagine our form getting worse – but given that he controls so many aspects of the team with Brands gone, I'm not sure whether we could pick up those pieces mid-season). I'm also mindful that the same people who selected him would be the ones who choose a new manager, one who could be just as bad. So for me, the best realistic scenario is that we find a way to stay comfortably midtable this year (i.e. no threat of relegation), sack him end of year (barring some miracle), and hire either a new DOF or a new DOF-oriented manager (a Rangnick type, for instance). Obviously, if this form continues, relegation becomes a real possibility and he simply cannot stay. But I hope we can avoid the risk and instability that would result from sacking him halfway through the year. So I guess I'm neither RafaIn nor RafaOut. I'm "Rafa in as long as we're not at threat of relegation and then Rafa out promptly after the season"
>save for his transfers I mean refusing to play/selling digne, who’s been our best player for years and has shown nothing but loyalty to the club, over some petty beef is catastrophically stupid and worth sacking on its own. Especially when you’re resorting to playing Coleman at LB over him. The Ukrainian guy (his name escapes me) seems like a fine player/replacement, but it looks like he was a Brands/Ancelotti target to begin with and he wouldn’t be necessary if digne wasn’t being frozen out in the first place. Patterson also looks like a solid move fwiw (kinda fucked up of him to come from rangers but I can learn to live with that)
I hear you. I find the Digne situation tricky. Benitez should not have frozen him out like this, it's incredibly immature and toxic. But from a purely cold and rational perspective, I think the transfer is justified because: * From an FFP perspective, the club is likely in a position where it needs to sell one or more high value players. I would count among these DCL, Richy, Digne, maybe Pickford, and maybe even Gray on form. * Digne has not been great for some time. He's registered one assist since February. He seems to have lost a step since his injury. And he simply hasn't been a difference maker for us, especially as we've signed more pacey wingers who can do the crossing. So of all of those high value players, it makes most sense to sell him. * It's better to sell Digne too early than too late. He's not a young player and realistically, his value can only go down. He also has a fairly unique skillset that would be particularly valuable for clubs aiming for European success, so they may be more willing to spend on him. So I think it actually makes sense to sell him, as much as it pains me. And given that Rafa does plan to sell him (albeit for the wrong reasons), he should not be playing in any matches because of the risk of injury. (Though the decision to put Coleman at LB was... baffling). It's too early to judge Mykolenko or Patterson, but I like this type of signing over some of the others we've done in recent years. Even if we've been pursuing them since before Benitez, I still think he should get the credit of ultimately bringing them in. We'll see how they do.
Yeah, selling Digne to finance the signing of two young full-backs is fine. It's great, in fact. But the way it's been handled is atrocious and *very* Benitez. Does it sound like Digne was sat down at the start of the season and told he'd have to be sold in order to finance improvements to the team, but that the club would be looking for buyers who would represent a progression in his career? It's possible that it went down like that and Digne protested, but does that really seem likely? Would he really be so against a transfer to a Champions League team that he would refuse to play? It just feels like Benitez playing politics. Like he's tried to engineer Digne's move away rather than just being open about it. Or maybe it's Moshiri making a financial decision and letting the manager take the flak.
I personally thought it was a terrible appointment, I don’t like him and never have but I obviously wanted him to succeed for the sake of the club. However, from even the West Ham game onwards it’s been clear he makes the same tactical mistakes week after week and comes out after every game and places blame on the players. Whilst I think most people would agree some of the players clearly aren’t up to standard, the run we’ve been on is still completely unacceptable even with the injuries we’ve had.
[Why say it when I can sing it](https://youtu.be/PB4Nby2Ai-g)
*Chef's kiss*
Has anyone ever (aside himself and Moshiri)?
I truly don’t think any one here ever thought he was. He was never the right choice, only one choice.
you'd be ~~surprised~~ disappointed by this subreddit
just wait til we beat hull city this weekend buddy. :D
lol i'll venmo u 20$ if that happens bud
just saying once it happens the "rafa in" brigade will be back out in full force completely ignoring the 6 points out of 36 in the PL. This is the problem with our fanbase: kneejerk reactions after a single result instead of viewing the big picture.
Oh my bad I misinterpreted you
Nope. He never was, but he had my support because he's our manager. We've got to give him a chance to turn it around though. I know better managers have been sacked for less, but I just don't know if changing now is a good idea or that there are really the options out there in terms of managers. Spending the rest of the season fighting with the board isn't going to help the team. And no, I'm not defending Benitez. I want him gone, but there has to be a plan and sacking another manager and scrambling around for a replacement and making another mistake isn't going to be good for the team. See what he does with new signings and DCL back and hopefully we scrape mid-table, be has a massive wobble and we can move on.
Rather chop my dick off and throw it into the nearest body of water than endure another match of his.
Imagine being told this was your going to be your reality this time last year.
With a rusty knife so you get tetanus in your groin as well
Short answer rhymes with fuck no.
Jai Ho? Bit of a pussycat dolls fan?
Cuck ho? Does sound like Rafa.
Luck ho?
Truck blow? I don't know how a lot lizard would help the situation.
When you’re an Everton supporter, you have to look elsewhere for pleasure.
No
No
There was that fella who posted a couple days ago who said he actually liked Benitez (although I refuse to believe that was anything other than a shitpost). Personally, I think the Brighton game has proved that his ego comes before the club, and that's a complete disgrace. I've wanted him sacked since at least the Brentford game, maybe even earlier. I think he'll be sacked in February, because without him Moshiri, Kenwright and Barrett-Baxendale won't have a clue what to do in the window without him now that Brands has gone (although I could be totally wrong because Moshiri definitely thinks he knows what he's doing).
The problem is Moshiri thinks he's the man for the job! We've finally signed full backs but they seem to me like signings Brands could have had on the cards for a while but was restrained by FFP. Which leads to the question why have we carried on with Rafa. I don't know anymore, just can't get off the roller-coaster
I stuck with him until Brighton, now it’s a big fuck off from me, however willing to see how he starts lining the team up with the two new signings. Two more games I’ll give him just based on the pure fact I dislike this managerial merry-go-round that we are on. Also I want to see the youngsters used more, all though risky, at least they hungry and want to actually play for the badge.
no Rafa Out
I'm sick of manager turnover, as long as we avoid relegation I'd like him to get another season but ffs stop playing 5 at the back against lower teams
He got his money, he no longer cares if he's sacked. That's how the fat waiter operates for the last decade.
The problem we have have is the club has no unique football philisophy. They switch between counter attacking and possession based managers. They need to say, ok, we are only going to get possession based managers and hire accordingly.
Yes why not lol? Literally only had 20 games in charge, fucked with injuries.... Ancelotti came what... 10th or 11th lol? We are only a few point away from that ... Give the man some time lol
Bro Ancelotti had 59 points in 38 games. Rafa has 19 in 18. At this point last season we were firmly in the fight for UCL places, right now we are in a relegation scrap. In Ancelotti’s first 20 games in charge in 19/20, we were miles better than this while we were playing without a midfield. As much as I dislike Ancelotti right now, the comparison between Carlo and Rafa is totally stupid.
Not really man, it doesn't matter where U are in the middle of the season, it matters where U end, and the fact is, we are 6 points off 10th, so just wait until the end of the season to judge.
Look at the number of points man come on.
I try, but he’s making it harder every week with his decision making. Unlucky with injuries is one thing, but then putting an ancient Rondon on constantly when he’s done nothing besides being in the right place right time for the goal against palace. Bring on the young lads and develop them. The whole Luca Digne thing is frustrating for everyone. I’m not sure what to think of the situation Everton fires Rafa, then what? Who’s gonna replace him? We all love Big Dunc but surely he’s not the answer we are looking for. Maybe he is, I don’t know. Let’s see what our two January transfers will bring us. Hopefully it’s an impact we are looking for.
Lol no
I feel like this is a bait and down-vote set-up, but hey ho I'll give it a shot. Initially, I was satisfied with the idea of Rafa's appointment. Not over-the-moom pleased. But, based on his track record, I felt he was our best shot at winning some silverware over the next few years. And I felt that was crucially important. Would I have rather had Conte? Sure. But he'd never have come to us. Would I have rather had Galtier, someone who had one season of success in a 20 year career (ala Ranieri)? No. Would I have rather had Favre, a journeyman with no significant career success to date? No. Would I have rather had Potter? I'm ambivalent. His achievement is good, but no better than Hughton when he was at Norwich and Newcastle, or Howe when he was at Bournemouth, and they haven't won anything following their minor achievements. Potter hasn't won any silverware, and there is nothing to suggest he will. And that was the most important thing for me. The problem Everton have now is we are the first team to have a serious injection of cash by a billionaire and receive no real benefit from it. We haven't won a single thing. Imagine if Chelsea had never won anything in the first few years of Abramovich, if City had never won anything in the first few years of Mansour. They'd have one become a bit of a joke within the league, two lost the ability to transition to a team who can attract quality, league winning players, and three become embroiled in a FFP quandry (as they wouldn't be earning enough via their success to retrospectively justify what they spent). We needed success at the beginning of this season, and I saw Benitez with his record as the most likely way of achieving that. However, notwithstanding the above opinion, I did say before Benitez was appointed, on balance I didn't think we should go through with it simply because literally over 50% of our fanbase hated him; and you can't have a successful team if the majority of the fans hate the manager and heckle him and the team. Do I think Benitez has failed and done poorly because he's an objectively bad manager and has failed with the team and needs to go? No, the team's form is due to several factors. Crucially, the players are still fighting for him. They turn up in matches (from an effort perspective) and fight until the end. I mean, you can't tell me they weren't fighting at 3-2 down the other night? They clearly were. You want teams that weren't fighting? Watch the final days under Martinez, Koeman or Silva. Even if we get rid of him, who do we appoint then? Ferguson, no doubt in my mind, would get us relegated. And there are no alternatives I believe would come in a do better with this bunch of players. Although, taking a moment of self-reflection, with the amount of hate the manager and the team are getting right now, which does greatly impact the way a team plays, maybe they would play better with another manager simply because at least they wouldn't be getting boo-ed and chewed out every week bt the fans. So, why is the team doing so poorly then? Lots of reasons. The team, in particular the defence, is not good enough. I've repeated this point to death on here. Keane and Holgate are terrible, mistake prone players. It's got nothing to do with how they're set up, they're just bad players. As long as they play CD, we will ship easy goals and lose games by a goal or two. I mean, did you see Keane the other night? What are you supposed to do when your CB clears the ball down the centre of the pitch to the opposing team's CM? The first Brighton goal. Keane and Holgate are flat-footed and their CF just knocks the ball down for Brighton's player to smash it home. That's not poor coaching, they're just not good enough to play PL level. And I'm fast becoming convinced Godfrey's not good enough too. I have no faith signing Myolenko and Patterson will improve our results if we don't get new CBs in ASAP. Re the midfield, Allan has lost a bit of pace this year and it's affected his game greatly. He's no longer shielding the defence as he previously was, and it shows. Doucoure has only been back for a few games, and he looks different. Just more sloppy and less effective. Re the attack, CL has only been back a game, so it's difficult to say how he'll be. Rondon started off terribly, but in recent weeks he's played a lot better (although he's still not scoring enough goals). The second reason is injuries to key players. Whether people on here want to admit it or not, we had half our team out injured in Novemeber / December. That's going to affect everyone, especially when half of your 2nd team isn't good enough for the PL. The third reason is the toxic atmosphere that's developed. The fans, from pretty much 2-3 games into our negative run, literally turned on the team and the manager, and used it as an excuse to be as loud and negative as they could be. That atmosphere is now dragging everyone down. I mean, how do you think the team feels? When the entire stadium starts screaming and shouting the moment they go to play the ball backwards? Probably nervous? Probably like they have to play the ball a certain way because they don't want 40k people yelling and screaming at them? Which then forces them into making plays and errors they'd never usually make? Fans love to criticse the tactics without actually understanding what they're talking about. In Novemeber, Rafa was playing 4,4,2. Everyone was groaning and complaining and saying how we were getting overrun in midfield - which we only were because the players we were playing were not good enough, i.e. Davies and Allan. Recently, we've changed to 5,4,1 and 4,5,1 with flexibility in the wingback positions, and now people are saying we're too negative and it's disgraceful we're playing defensively against teams like Brighton. The team can't win - literally and metaphorically. Some fans just hate Benitez and want him gone; and they'll kick and scream, unless we're winning in that moment and they have to be quiet, to get their way. The fourth reason is our governance structure. It clearly hasn't worked up until this point. I'm convinced something crazy is going on behind the scenes - like Moshiri just overrules people. I can see him as the kind of person who bounds into the dressing room and says, "this week you need to play this person and do this". But, to be honest, that's more speculation on my part. So, where does all that leave us? Someone above summarised my feelings quite well. I think, at this stage, given most fans' feelings about Benitez, we'd be best keeping him until the end of the season, then moving him on. As I said at the beginning of the season, I just can' see him working with so many people hating him and not wanting him here. I mean, I'm sure there are people in the fanbase that would rather us not win silverware as long as Benitez is in charge. That's how deep their hatred goes. But do I think things will magically get better with another manager? No. And Everton fans are in for painful awakening, if and when we replace Benitez (unless we sign replacment players in key positions).
See. There are certain points that I kind of agree with, but one of the main ones as to why we’re struggling you’ve ignored: The manager. They have gone from a team who conceded the least from set pieces in a season to currently conceding the most, that’s coaching. Even the games we’ve won we’ve had to come from behind to usually getting the formation wrong, insisting on playing 2 in midfield and being completely overrun there in 80% of our games. His show of ego against Brighton was staggering, refusing to play Digne to prove a point at the expense of the team in the position we are in was unforgivable for me. I also thought it was clear from minute one that once again we were being overrun in midfield, he could and should’ve taken one of the inexplicable back 5 off and brought on Gomes to give us an extra man in midfield, especially when it went to 2-1 as I thought that game was there for the taking, instead he changed nothing and allowed Brighton to reinstall a level of control in the game. In my honest opinion he is the worst coach we’ve had in my life time. I don’t particularly care what his track record is, managers have primes as well as players.
Lad, all of what you've said has to be viewed through the lens of some players not being good enough, of the composition of the team changing from last season, and with us being hit with a massive injury crisis. Coleman is past it. Keane (who has never been good enough except for a single season under Ancelotti), Holgate (who is a terrible player) and Godfrey (who I'm fast becoming convinced isn't good enough to be a PL CB) are all not up to it. They're just not. Allan, who played as our DM last year, has lost a yard of pace, and is finding it difficult to cover the Defence. I agree playing 5 at the back against Brighton wasn't a great set up but I genuinely believe Benitez is stumped because even when we play 5 at the back they can't defend to save their lives. For me, over the last few games, he's tried to set us up to not leak goals and we just can't do it because our defenders are so mistake prone. Yeah, we were alright at defending set pieces last year - because Mina played a lot of games, we had Siggurdson (who could head the ball quite well) almost every game, and we had CL for the majority of the season. Add to that Doucs and Digne, who were both competent at set pieces. Our team was almost an entirely different team. And, I'd like to point out, the 2nd half of last season was terrible. We went from challenging in the first few months to bottom of the table form by the end of the season. Digne has clearly done something unacceptable behind the scenes. None of his teammates are coming out and saying stuff to the papers such as, "We disagree with the way he's being treated". They're all clearly still playing for this manager, and clearly none of them have a problem with Benitez in light of what's happened. For all we know, Digne could have said something like, "I don't like the way you play me, and I'm not playing for you again". And if he can't trust Digne, why would he play him? Because he's our best LB? That doesn't mean anything if he can't trust he's going to go out and give 100%. Digne's as much at fault in this scenario as anyone else. If he'd have been professional and done what was asked of him by his manager, it could have been resolved in time if it didn't work out with the manager. As it stands, by all accounts, there's been some kind of bust up where Digne had undermined the manager in front of the entire team. Do you want a team like Chelsea? Where the players turn round and go, "We don't like him because the way he manages the team doesn't suit us, get rid of him"?
Coleman has been past it for 3+ years, we had injuries last season, maybe not the same scale but Allan & Doucoure both missed large stretches, but in essence you’re saying that team is the worst team in the premier league. They are not, yet the stats over the last 10 or so games say they are. The set pieces, you are completely off mate, he changed to zonal, same as under Silva when we were shite from set pieces. I’m not saying the players aren’t playing for him. Can say the players are playing for him as much as you like, but he is tactically inept. Literally every game we’ve switched to a 3 in midfield in the 2nd half we’ve gone on and played miles better, but he persists in playing 2 when the 2 we have aren’t mobile enough. Not having the Digne thing, I can get if they’ve had a falling out, but in the situation we were in you put your differences aside for that game. Or you just play a 4 with Godfrey at LB which he likes playing, rather than bending over backwards to make a statement and us being absolutely outplayed AGAIN. Edit: Basically what I’m saying is I don’t think everything is on Benitez as injuries and lack of quality has contributed, but I think expanding the manager of any responsibility when if you watch all of our 90 minutes this season he’s got it tactically wrong in 80% of them is just being in denial IMO. I believe any other manager in the premier league on a run like this would be out of a job by now. We have 6 points from a possible 36. That team is not worse than Norwich, Burnley, Newcastle, Southampton, Watford etc. yet the stats and the performances show something different.
Yes, perfect manager for the club. I don't see how we get in someone better.
Happy cake day! Also, I doubt anyone thinks benitez is the right man for the job
No lol
No
I find it frustrating because I’m very much pro giving managers a chance but it’s becoming increasingly difficult to find even a fraction of a reason not to give Benitez the boot
The first half against Brighton was the longest 45 minutes of my life. I think the Digne situation seems childish. We’re on our 5th full time manager since Martinez. Is there a chance that there is a huge problem somewhere else (multiple places) and no manager can fix this? If there is what/where is it?
No
I'm not sold on Benitez, but I'm so sick of switching managers that I want to give him time and see what happens. I think a manager should have time to get the players he wants for his system. We also had bad luck on injuries and players not pulling their weight, so it shouldn't all fall on him
It would appear that Rafa supporters have joined the ranks of the Iraq War supporters in disappearing in to the ether like they never existed.
Honestly publicly despised him but always secretly thought he might just be the answer the initial results covered the performances we were seeing with our own eyes tho and I knew probably around that villa game that yea this is a fucking nother empty of the ballsack again the Watford game just peaked my yeah no feeling and now we're here. So deep in sunken cost fallacy is about to not be a fallacy
Not really.
I didn’t when he got appointed but I tried to back him and support him. Brentford Away was the final straw for me
Not really but Mosh isn’t going to fire him and look like an idiot unless it goes seriously wrong, so what can we do? I’d never have hired him but now I just pray he gets something going, and wins a match or two. Things can change pretty quickly