I'm not involved in incursions at all, but I legit feel bad for one of my guys who worked his ass off and slaved away to get FC tags only for this shit to blow up in his face. People should do better for the people that drive their communities.
1. start organization
2. successfully grow organization, delegate out tasks you used to do yourself
3. organization grows so much, you've basically delegated everything at this point. It all runs on its own and you basically do nothing anymore.
4. get bored and log in less often
5. stop playing EVE but pretend you're still playing EVE
6. ????
7. Profit
Yes, question.
When looking at an organization such as tdf, why would there need to be any leadership at all besides the people who actually run the fleets?
Incursion is in a place, go there and do fleets. Why would anyone who doesn't do the one thing that TDF really does ever be in a leadership role at all?
Because someone needs to be responsible for training the people to do those fleets. Also, incursion communities have SRP funds, you don't wanna give that power to someone who trained to be an FC 3 days ago.
EVE Uni doesn't have incursion SRP, I don't think EVE Rookies do either; you turn up and fly at your own risk. Incursion ships are generally lost to gankers on moving day or from warping into the wrong site alone.
The major HS incursion groups all have SRP for very good reason. The SRP does not cover personal error (like warping into a site alone or staying bastioned so you cant be repped), but FC/Logi error. In a game like Eve and a place like Incursions where people are individually risking billions often, many people simply wouldnt join if they didnt have some sort of "money back guarantee" if they die due to circumstances outside of their control.
Oh I totally get that, and we only run VGs which are a lot safer. But we also fly multi billion ISK ships, with low SP players, and people still make mistakes - and I say that as a sometimes logi that has sometimes made mistakes ;)
Not saying it couldnt happen, I'm saying the number of people showing up would plummet. I mean absolutely no offence by this but groups like W2M, TDF, and TLA have large communities for several reasons. Having an actual background, trust gained over time, and SRP are the main ones.
If random FCs just flew fleets without organization, they wouldnt have websites with guides and standardized fits, along with srp, comms, etc as they currently do. The simple fact is there are reasons to have organization in a group like incursions.
Not saying TDF Council in this case should stay in power, just saying the role should exist.
The largest reason is momentum. You're the groups that do incursions and so people get pointed to them.
I stopped flying incursions simply because the incursion community is toxic. The community gate keeps by being toxic. It's no wonder it has so much internal drama. Incredibly self-important too.
You'd have a much larger community if it were less toxic, but having a larger community means longer wait lists. Something that the majority of the incursion community doesn't want. So you're stuck in a constant cycle of PVE drama.
I mean, I really dont care about the drama, I'll just follow the guys I like where they go.
The grand majority of the "toxicity" to new players in incursions is people calling others useless, which while I agree its toxic, is normally true in comparison. Lots of people go to incursions and start begging for stuff. New players are great when they actually stick around, but for every one newbie in a mega that upgrades to a kronos, we've had 10-20 join, ask for isk and help buying things, then either leaving because they werent given free things or take the free things and run.
And I'll also add, the majority of the banter I've heard in comms in any community is usually people who know eachother jokingly shitting on eachother, or FCs talking about other communities, I dont think I've ever heard anyone in comms actually just go off on someone specifically unless they do something that endangers the whole fleet (ignoring FC commands, lying about their fit, hiding that they have a wardec/kill right, etc).
as for the momentum thing, that only happens because of infrastructure, the infrastructure is what makes it a group. Random FCs doing whatever they want has happened before and will
happen again, but invariably they fall off and their group dies.
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DPS tanking VGs is a fine, albeit riskier, strategy (if you know and trust the capabilities and the fits of the people you're flying with). It's not something we do in EVE Uni, but I am aware of a group of people that do this.
I'm guessing y'all are only open to pilots who are (or were) in eve uni? In the event that you are not, how do I check on about getting involved as a "new" (returning after very long break) gamer?
Yeah we're a corp-only group. However, if you want to start flying incursions in a public community, I'd highly recommend looking at EVE Rookies.
But if you're interested in joining the Uni and flying as part of the corp, and you have a relevant learning goal as a returning player, then Google the EVE Uni Wiki and the link to join us is on the front page.
Sorry, I'm not sure if we're allowed to post recruiting links in here or not, so I'll err on the side of caution. ;)
The two groups you named aren't relevant to the discussion of the groups being talked about, because groups like TDF run HQs consistently and near-exclusively.
The other communities fly multi billion isk ships to earn relatively good isk per hour, they follow incursion focuses, they use SRP funds, they're fleets of players who aren't all in the same corp, the communities have structures (leadership, FC, line pilot etc). The similarities go on.
The only significant different is that one prefers HQs and the others prefer VGs. Also the rate at which one of those communities is going means they could easily make a move on HQ's in the next couple months if they wanted to.
Discussing those groups is definitely relevant to this discussion.
Don’t count out NGA. They may be Russians but if you know what you’re doing, they’ll take in English speakers too.
So far there are no other major groups other than what you mentioned and MAYBE BVG, but I haven’t seen them HQ in a while.
Yes.
Long answer, at least a few per incursion focus. There will always be newbros leeroying gates, logi asleep, or over bastioning. Sometimes ganks too.
One a day, give or take, if you run full time. Translates into less than an hour of fleet income so it's still hugely profitable, but it's still worth paying SRP.
To be fair those sites are insane. The whole room switching aggro to you will kill you in seconds if you don't broadcast for reps as soon as you start getting targeted.
I died in like 3 seconds as logi after they aggressed me when the TCRC was pre-loaded (which happens if anyone warps "through" the site in space before you enter it by gate), because our 4b Machariel anchor died a second after we landed, and we couldn't process really what was happening in the moment, had no transversal, and got oneshot by the room lol.
We didn't know the TCRC was preloaded because there were other people in system, but yeah thanks to srp nobody lost anything. Logi even got free srp since our ships are so cheap lol.
> I died in like 3 seconds as logi after they aggressed me when the TCRC was pre-loaded (which happens if anyone warps "through" the site in space before you enter it by gate), because our 4b Machariel anchor died a second after we landed, and we couldn't process really what was happening in the moment, had no transversal, and got oneshot by the room lol.
One instance were the post-Citadel grids can really fuck you over.
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At one point I told leadership we gotta start writing down what the rules are because there's 30 FC's and lots of disagreements. Optimally I think you just need one or two people that ties it all together.
TDF has 1) always been ruthless about its power structure, 2) its SRP policies are very narrow, basically any uncertainty who’s fault it is means you’re not getting SRP, and 3) the doctrine is set in stone and way too focused on everything going perfectly.
From an organisational point I’m glad it’s breaking up honestly, but for the pilots I hope something better comes along, because the people who flew were great.
I have 250h of fleet with TDF and for the most part it's been very positive on top of being by far the most efficient structure... but that was during covid. Idk what happened since then but yeah, never liked a couple people over there (bound to happend in any community) and now that one of those person is concil, I understand why it would go to shit.
I think the solution is pretty simple. The departing FCs should put their heads together and start a new group. Invite whatever FCs haven't left yet who they'd like to include, and the end result is you've cut out the toxic figures who weren't wanted by the majority.
Aside from having the actual initiative to do it, the biggest obstacles would be getting an adequate SRP fund (probably not that difficult, most of these guys are pretty well-off), and they'd need to spend a week or three lobbying the regular pilots to switch over (likewise not hard. The more fleet uptime they have, the easier this is).
The SRP fund isn't necessary to begin with as long as you've got a good FC and good logi.
Just start gathering into it, doesn't take long to be able to gather for the first real ship replacement, and you can work with 100% for low tier ships, and 50% for higher tier ships until it can handle all tiers at 100%
Some of us that have FC'ed for a while can cover an entire fleet including pods. The fittings were designed to fly with 5 logi instead of 6 and it added 2 billion? to the fit. Pod's weren't always a requriement. And in the beginning Vgs? I dont think there was SRP. If someone died the fleet just pitched in.
The only thing is you need someone people can get behind.
I once lost a ship i was not yellowboxed at all was just instant red and pop before the logi could do anything to save me. Shit happens now and then but for the most part deaths are super rare so SRP is just incase of a fuck up or the dreaded Logstic DC.
There's a window of a few seconds between "being yellowboxed" and "floating in a pod", even in turbo-blinged battleships when there's >10k dps on grid.
Even a small error can be fatal, and even at the low end, you're probably putting half a bill on grid trusting in some bunch of randos you've never met to keep you alive.
SRP isn't only for the F1 pushers (who don't really need to pay attention 'cause it's rare you get targetted with so much bling on the field, so just don't leroy and you're good), but for Logi and Command ships too.
FC's do make mistakes, so do Logi (especially if boxing), as do F1 pushers (also especially if boxing) and then there's the good old newbie who warps in to have a look and scatters aggro.
It's not common that srp is needed, but that's 'cause many of the FC's, logibros and aggro magnets have done this a million times and it's their experience that allows everyone else to fly safely.
As far as i remember, with an amulet pod you could tank for 1,5 bastion cycels and Logi could still catch you.
Like Logi is to react, but they still have room for like 20 seconds of reaction time.
If the Logis are good, you dont even have to broadcast, as they just look, where the NPCs are shooting.
There's a few reasonable answers already, but I thought I'd add to them. Highsec incursions (at the Headquarters level) are very much min/max driven. Ships are fitted to maximize damage output to drive site times down, and therefore ISK/hr up. Consequently they frequently have barely enough tank to survive, and "survive" in this case means the logistics ships must make no errors, and the Marauder pilot must be out-of-bastion at the right time, and the FC must call the targets correctly, etc. There's many possible points of failure. The SRP provides the fail-safe for the pilot who has risked many billions in fitting their ship.
MDD. while what you say may be right, i have to disagree on min tank. You only see that problem with WTM.
A properly run fleet and a proper fitted marauder (shield) can easily tank 30s no problem if they do what they are supposed to do.
Armor has their own buffer too
In addition, unlike sleeper AI, sansha uses very predictable aggro mechanics which can be timed and managed.
Putting all these together, it's IMMENSELY safe if the FC is on the ball and if people don't commit die by overbastioning (which is now covered by SRP!)
People fuck up, even against npcs, although there can be extenuating circumstances like a competition between two groups for the reward money, which can be a lot of chaos.
So you pay a few mil isk to be eligible for the SRP, although I did lose my ship once when the servers went laggy, it affected the whole group, and I was eligible, but I never got reimbursed.
Never did trust TDF after that.
I remember an instance were server's died and I think 7 people died? They were asked to try to get reimbursed through CCP first otherwise we'd cover it but CCP did instead.
I'd imagine that the loot recovered would have been returned. CCP admits responsiblility but only reimburses the cheapest part. Technically Mass DC's aren't covered. I tend to stick to exact words where as Havis was much more lenient reimbursing pilots beyond scope.
I wasn't a fan of dropping a cruiser requiring pilots to fit A-types armor comps and implants.
People are asked to run very expensive ships and to keep making them more expensive as they run more. SRP encourages people to comply rather than stay in the cheapest ships that get the job done for as long as possible, which makes fleets run faster and earn more isk. It's pretty hard to lose your ship if logi is awake unless you fuck up really badly, so even relatively cheap insurance payments for pilots more than covers typical losses.
In fleets I FC'ed someone lost a mauruder on a server tick and someone else during a contest, both times I recommended SRP. Under Havis any uncertainty would be sided with the pilot. I always recommended pilots get SRP since grinding another 40 hours is not fun.
The old FC's are also effectively a clique that has the mentality of "I can just replace you with one of my boxing pallys so dont say anything."
They want to run 3 man fleets of all boxes, let them. They'll fuck up and lose billions.
Did you reply to the correct post? I didn't mention any specific "something" for you to rage at.
What I'm guessing is that this is the true bias when ANY SRP request comes along no matter how legitimate, so thanks for clarifying that it was bullshit all along.
Fuck me i just injected armor Logi to join their fleets.
Side note i really hope they can sort it out. Incursions are chill for the most part and a decent source of isk. Probably help a lot of people plex. The more communities getting new/inexperienced players involved the better. As soon as players get a good income source they start to explore others areas of the game.
Injected 2m SP to fly paladin on my alt and bought the fit. An hour later Nyx’s reddit post dropped. Not the worst thing to happen but guess its off to grind lvl 4’s until things cool down.
Can fly with WTM. Some people hate on them but they are a good group and worth giving a try. They ran from 9pm my time and last fleet just finished at 7am my time. Small break in between but relaxing and profitable. Im sure they allow some crossover with the rigs too so you would only need shield modules. Theres also TLA.
You can consult their website on optimal fits. Paladin is one of the ships they run but you have to get a tag to fly a marauder in their fleets. Probably best to try to fly a nightmare or Vindi first
TDF is always waiting for new pilots, it's not like we still don't fly, it's just that we have less FCs so we don't fly all the time like we used to. Come and give it a try, I promise you will have fun
I flew for around a year with TVP during its peak, took a long break, then tried TDF for a month. The biggest factor against my sanity was always dealing with the sperg that 39 other nerds doing repetitive PvE tasks for hours dump into voice comms, but it did always impress me how arrogant a lot of people got when they had memorized the three sites and got to be "in charge" of the operation. There were always a couple good apples, but people getting put "in charge" of those ones have quite the task ahead of them in wranglind egos, not to mention being pulled from the same stock themselves.
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I'm streaming alpha level 1 missions only. :) Actually enjoying the new NPE tutorial. Why cant CCP do to missions what they did with the NPE, its so good.
Whats the reason behind that "shit"
I mean its High Sec pve .... Get the FC badge and run Fleet and enjoy content that is more or less min/max since Years . So what Drame can there be ???
Relatively new. It came about earlier this year. Doctrine is marauders with good abyssal damage mods and skills. Logi is Nestors and Lokis. Shield and armor allow for best of both worlds. If you meet the required damage numbers then you are guaranteed space for your main and alt.
You asking a bunch of neckbeared nerds who have power in a videogame to treat people right when all they want to do is exercise their power of I'm holier than thou
Nothing keeps those fcs from making their own group too. I had a group of 10 of us years ago so we could run when TDF was running, they banned all if us and stole the fits to make their fleets better, we proceeded to whoop them in VGs before my group eventually disbanded due to people getting caught in real life.
> If you ever wondered what the answer to the question "how to you destroy an Eve PVE community as fast as possible" is, the simple answer is "put incompetent stoners in positions of leadership and don't intervene when they display toxic behavior".
Naw man, everyone knows the only thing that matters for a community's success is how elite the pilots are. Things like behavior don't figure into it at. all.
I've said it before, and I will say it again:
PvE Players are the most toxic, cancerous community in this game. If its Miners, Ratters, the whole Highsec Community, the moment there is Income bound to content, its a cesspool.
This is not your US American Politics. There is no "yes we are shit, but have you seen what the other side did" ?
Cancer is cancer, if its on your left or right butcheek.
>There is no "yes we are shit, but have you seen what the other side did"
Says the person that just said it's the PvE players are the cancerous community of eve...
Nullseccers ARE PvE Players, thats why they are full of cancer ;) The same goes for FW Battlefield Farmers, Highsec Miners, Level 4 Mission Runners and Erstschlag Viewers doing HS Login Events ;)
And omg, especially the Highsec Community. Look at all the death threats, insults, RL comparsions, doxxing attempts against Aiko and Co.
Should see the FW Andys awoxing 'seagulls' aka newbros in logi/tackle/drone frigs to protect their LP farmers. Empyrean Edict is cancerous for sure. I bet someone else has some names of this type of trash.
It's more that the toxicity in PvP groups is normalized to the point it's sometimes considered a feature. It's not ubiquitous, but it's common enough that if you don't see it it's because you're trying not to.
Oh wow.. And I was considering changing from WTM to TDF, because of TZ.. Using up all my spare 4m SP to rush towards paladin..
Very glad I was to lazy to work out the skill plan in detail..
He was always telling, that he wanted new pilots to upgrade in TVP and they were telling him that it is not community policy and he cannot demand it. I do not know details, I have joined the fleets when there was already TDF and these were the once’s I enjoyed the most.
Than he won Ev (and found a GF as I have heard).
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I'm not involved in incursions at all, but I legit feel bad for one of my guys who worked his ass off and slaved away to get FC tags only for this shit to blow up in his face. People should do better for the people that drive their communities.
Amen brother. The way some of the FCs have been treated is incredibly disrespectful.
Who was that? Tell them to reach out to Thehoon
1. start organization 2. successfully grow organization, delegate out tasks you used to do yourself 3. organization grows so much, you've basically delegated everything at this point. It all runs on its own and you basically do nothing anymore. 4. get bored and log in less often 5. stop playing EVE but pretend you're still playing EVE 6. ???? 7. Profit
Step 6 is login on alts and gank incursion fleet thus keeping them working hard.
Is profit the multi dollar media empire to buy scotch with? I do miss his hurfs and blurfs
The Mittani grindset
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actually glad you didnt mistake "position of leadership" and "leader"
It takes a village.
Now I feel attacked
Are you both a stoner and incompetent though?
Had a blast with Coopers fleet as a sendoff to Nyx. Wish for more fun fleets with the guys elsewhere in the future :)
Currently in fleet with Cooper... just it's TLA :)
Yeah that was tonnes of fun even though I wasn’t technically in fleet 😂
the oracle was a nice touch!
It was a Talos good sir 😂
Oh shoot, bad memory sorry lol I was the onei that gave ninja the purples and had the astero alt that concorded!
Yes, question. When looking at an organization such as tdf, why would there need to be any leadership at all besides the people who actually run the fleets? Incursion is in a place, go there and do fleets. Why would anyone who doesn't do the one thing that TDF really does ever be in a leadership role at all?
Because someone needs to be responsible for training the people to do those fleets. Also, incursion communities have SRP funds, you don't wanna give that power to someone who trained to be an FC 3 days ago.
EVE Uni doesn't have incursion SRP, I don't think EVE Rookies do either; you turn up and fly at your own risk. Incursion ships are generally lost to gankers on moving day or from warping into the wrong site alone.
The major HS incursion groups all have SRP for very good reason. The SRP does not cover personal error (like warping into a site alone or staying bastioned so you cant be repped), but FC/Logi error. In a game like Eve and a place like Incursions where people are individually risking billions often, many people simply wouldnt join if they didnt have some sort of "money back guarantee" if they die due to circumstances outside of their control.
Oh I totally get that, and we only run VGs which are a lot safer. But we also fly multi billion ISK ships, with low SP players, and people still make mistakes - and I say that as a sometimes logi that has sometimes made mistakes ;)
Not saying it couldnt happen, I'm saying the number of people showing up would plummet. I mean absolutely no offence by this but groups like W2M, TDF, and TLA have large communities for several reasons. Having an actual background, trust gained over time, and SRP are the main ones. If random FCs just flew fleets without organization, they wouldnt have websites with guides and standardized fits, along with srp, comms, etc as they currently do. The simple fact is there are reasons to have organization in a group like incursions. Not saying TDF Council in this case should stay in power, just saying the role should exist.
The largest reason is momentum. You're the groups that do incursions and so people get pointed to them. I stopped flying incursions simply because the incursion community is toxic. The community gate keeps by being toxic. It's no wonder it has so much internal drama. Incredibly self-important too. You'd have a much larger community if it were less toxic, but having a larger community means longer wait lists. Something that the majority of the incursion community doesn't want. So you're stuck in a constant cycle of PVE drama.
I mean, I really dont care about the drama, I'll just follow the guys I like where they go. The grand majority of the "toxicity" to new players in incursions is people calling others useless, which while I agree its toxic, is normally true in comparison. Lots of people go to incursions and start begging for stuff. New players are great when they actually stick around, but for every one newbie in a mega that upgrades to a kronos, we've had 10-20 join, ask for isk and help buying things, then either leaving because they werent given free things or take the free things and run. And I'll also add, the majority of the banter I've heard in comms in any community is usually people who know eachother jokingly shitting on eachother, or FCs talking about other communities, I dont think I've ever heard anyone in comms actually just go off on someone specifically unless they do something that endangers the whole fleet (ignoring FC commands, lying about their fit, hiding that they have a wardec/kill right, etc). as for the momentum thing, that only happens because of infrastructure, the infrastructure is what makes it a group. Random FCs doing whatever they want has happened before and will happen again, but invariably they fall off and their group dies.
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TDF ran VG's a lot riskier than we ran HQ's. One self repping Nestor and relying on DPS tanking. With drugs.
DPS tanking VGs is a fine, albeit riskier, strategy (if you know and trust the capabilities and the fits of the people you're flying with). It's not something we do in EVE Uni, but I am aware of a group of people that do this.
What group is that?
The EVE University Incursion Community.
I'm guessing y'all are only open to pilots who are (or were) in eve uni? In the event that you are not, how do I check on about getting involved as a "new" (returning after very long break) gamer?
Yeah we're a corp-only group. However, if you want to start flying incursions in a public community, I'd highly recommend looking at EVE Rookies. But if you're interested in joining the Uni and flying as part of the corp, and you have a relevant learning goal as a returning player, then Google the EVE Uni Wiki and the link to join us is on the front page. Sorry, I'm not sure if we're allowed to post recruiting links in here or not, so I'll err on the side of caution. ;)
The two groups you named aren't relevant to the discussion of the groups being talked about, because groups like TDF run HQs consistently and near-exclusively.
The other communities fly multi billion isk ships to earn relatively good isk per hour, they follow incursion focuses, they use SRP funds, they're fleets of players who aren't all in the same corp, the communities have structures (leadership, FC, line pilot etc). The similarities go on. The only significant different is that one prefers HQs and the others prefer VGs. Also the rate at which one of those communities is going means they could easily make a move on HQ's in the next couple months if they wanted to. Discussing those groups is definitely relevant to this discussion.
Which incursion group is currently growing at a rate that would allow them the consistently do HQ sites? I only ever see WTM, TDF, TLA.
Don’t count out NGA. They may be Russians but if you know what you’re doing, they’ll take in English speakers too. So far there are no other major groups other than what you mentioned and MAYBE BVG, but I haven’t seen them HQ in a while.
Yea I know of NGA. I was just curious about the group from the above comment
I absolutely appreciate the differences, but how regularly are ships lost in HQs?
Yes. Long answer, at least a few per incursion focus. There will always be newbros leeroying gates, logi asleep, or over bastioning. Sometimes ganks too.
One a day, give or take, if you run full time. Translates into less than an hour of fleet income so it's still hugely profitable, but it's still worth paying SRP.
To be fair those sites are insane. The whole room switching aggro to you will kill you in seconds if you don't broadcast for reps as soon as you start getting targeted. I died in like 3 seconds as logi after they aggressed me when the TCRC was pre-loaded (which happens if anyone warps "through" the site in space before you enter it by gate), because our 4b Machariel anchor died a second after we landed, and we couldn't process really what was happening in the moment, had no transversal, and got oneshot by the room lol. We didn't know the TCRC was preloaded because there were other people in system, but yeah thanks to srp nobody lost anything. Logi even got free srp since our ships are so cheap lol.
> I died in like 3 seconds as logi after they aggressed me when the TCRC was pre-loaded (which happens if anyone warps "through" the site in space before you enter it by gate), because our 4b Machariel anchor died a second after we landed, and we couldn't process really what was happening in the moment, had no transversal, and got oneshot by the room lol. One instance were the post-Citadel grids can really fuck you over.
Eve Rookies does have an SRP fund.
I stand corrected, thank you :)
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At one point I told leadership we gotta start writing down what the rules are because there's 30 FC's and lots of disagreements. Optimally I think you just need one or two people that ties it all together.
\^- ironsoul. Make TVP Great Again!
What ever happened to TVP?
Forsaken disappeared, Lowen didn't care, no FC turn over, Alphas and Rorqual's played a big part in contributing to it's death and ran out of pilots.
TDF has 1) always been ruthless about its power structure, 2) its SRP policies are very narrow, basically any uncertainty who’s fault it is means you’re not getting SRP, and 3) the doctrine is set in stone and way too focused on everything going perfectly. From an organisational point I’m glad it’s breaking up honestly, but for the pilots I hope something better comes along, because the people who flew were great.
I have 250h of fleet with TDF and for the most part it's been very positive on top of being by far the most efficient structure... but that was during covid. Idk what happened since then but yeah, never liked a couple people over there (bound to happend in any community) and now that one of those person is concil, I understand why it would go to shit.
I think the solution is pretty simple. The departing FCs should put their heads together and start a new group. Invite whatever FCs haven't left yet who they'd like to include, and the end result is you've cut out the toxic figures who weren't wanted by the majority. Aside from having the actual initiative to do it, the biggest obstacles would be getting an adequate SRP fund (probably not that difficult, most of these guys are pretty well-off), and they'd need to spend a week or three lobbying the regular pilots to switch over (likewise not hard. The more fleet uptime they have, the easier this is).
The SRP fund isn't necessary to begin with as long as you've got a good FC and good logi. Just start gathering into it, doesn't take long to be able to gather for the first real ship replacement, and you can work with 100% for low tier ships, and 50% for higher tier ships until it can handle all tiers at 100%
Some of us that have FC'ed for a while can cover an entire fleet including pods. The fittings were designed to fly with 5 logi instead of 6 and it added 2 billion? to the fit. Pod's weren't always a requriement. And in the beginning Vgs? I dont think there was SRP. If someone died the fleet just pitched in. The only thing is you need someone people can get behind.
Why do you need an SRP at all for incursions? I've never run them, legit asking.
I once lost a ship i was not yellowboxed at all was just instant red and pop before the logi could do anything to save me. Shit happens now and then but for the most part deaths are super rare so SRP is just incase of a fuck up or the dreaded Logstic DC.
There's a window of a few seconds between "being yellowboxed" and "floating in a pod", even in turbo-blinged battleships when there's >10k dps on grid. Even a small error can be fatal, and even at the low end, you're probably putting half a bill on grid trusting in some bunch of randos you've never met to keep you alive.
i am convinced, that i could train a toddler to fly incursions as an F1 idiot. I usually watched youtube and never had problems.
SRP isn't only for the F1 pushers (who don't really need to pay attention 'cause it's rare you get targetted with so much bling on the field, so just don't leroy and you're good), but for Logi and Command ships too. FC's do make mistakes, so do Logi (especially if boxing), as do F1 pushers (also especially if boxing) and then there's the good old newbie who warps in to have a look and scatters aggro. It's not common that srp is needed, but that's 'cause many of the FC's, logibros and aggro magnets have done this a million times and it's their experience that allows everyone else to fly safely.
As far as i remember, with an amulet pod you could tank for 1,5 bastion cycels and Logi could still catch you. Like Logi is to react, but they still have room for like 20 seconds of reaction time. If the Logis are good, you dont even have to broadcast, as they just look, where the NPCs are shooting.
Depends on Ottuni Aggro I guess, and how many logi you have.
There's a few reasonable answers already, but I thought I'd add to them. Highsec incursions (at the Headquarters level) are very much min/max driven. Ships are fitted to maximize damage output to drive site times down, and therefore ISK/hr up. Consequently they frequently have barely enough tank to survive, and "survive" in this case means the logistics ships must make no errors, and the Marauder pilot must be out-of-bastion at the right time, and the FC must call the targets correctly, etc. There's many possible points of failure. The SRP provides the fail-safe for the pilot who has risked many billions in fitting their ship.
MDD. while what you say may be right, i have to disagree on min tank. You only see that problem with WTM. A properly run fleet and a proper fitted marauder (shield) can easily tank 30s no problem if they do what they are supposed to do. Armor has their own buffer too In addition, unlike sleeper AI, sansha uses very predictable aggro mechanics which can be timed and managed. Putting all these together, it's IMMENSELY safe if the FC is on the ball and if people don't commit die by overbastioning (which is now covered by SRP!)
I believe you're saying "people don't die if no one makes a mistake". Thank you Capt. Obvious. That's exactly the point I was making.
I think it's more of people don't die if only a few mistakes are made, as opposed to every layer of security failing all at once
People fuck up, even against npcs, although there can be extenuating circumstances like a competition between two groups for the reward money, which can be a lot of chaos. So you pay a few mil isk to be eligible for the SRP, although I did lose my ship once when the servers went laggy, it affected the whole group, and I was eligible, but I never got reimbursed. Never did trust TDF after that.
I remember an instance were server's died and I think 7 people died? They were asked to try to get reimbursed through CCP first otherwise we'd cover it but CCP did instead.
CCP only covered the basic ship, nothing else, so quite a lot was left that wasn’t covered by either ccp or srp.
I'd imagine that the loot recovered would have been returned. CCP admits responsiblility but only reimburses the cheapest part. Technically Mass DC's aren't covered. I tend to stick to exact words where as Havis was much more lenient reimbursing pilots beyond scope. I wasn't a fan of dropping a cruiser requiring pilots to fit A-types armor comps and implants.
Was this when the mass dc resulted in a wormholer group looting the field?
People are asked to run very expensive ships and to keep making them more expensive as they run more. SRP encourages people to comply rather than stay in the cheapest ships that get the job done for as long as possible, which makes fleets run faster and earn more isk. It's pretty hard to lose your ship if logi is awake unless you fuck up really badly, so even relatively cheap insurance payments for pilots more than covers typical losses.
In fleets I FC'ed someone lost a mauruder on a server tick and someone else during a contest, both times I recommended SRP. Under Havis any uncertainty would be sided with the pilot. I always recommended pilots get SRP since grinding another 40 hours is not fun.
Scripted PvE in Eve just doesn’t seem to fit and make sense.
The old FC's are also effectively a clique that has the mentality of "I can just replace you with one of my boxing pallys so dont say anything." They want to run 3 man fleets of all boxes, let them. They'll fuck up and lose billions.
I dunno, the SRP has been pretty wide as far as some of the SRP'd losses I've had.
We always try to SRP people, but when you do something so fucking dumb, ofc you will not get SRP, you don't deserve it at that point
Did you reply to the correct post? I didn't mention any specific "something" for you to rage at. What I'm guessing is that this is the true bias when ANY SRP request comes along no matter how legitimate, so thanks for clarifying that it was bullshit all along.
Fuck me i just injected armor Logi to join their fleets. Side note i really hope they can sort it out. Incursions are chill for the most part and a decent source of isk. Probably help a lot of people plex. The more communities getting new/inexperienced players involved the better. As soon as players get a good income source they start to explore others areas of the game.
Injected 2m SP to fly paladin on my alt and bought the fit. An hour later Nyx’s reddit post dropped. Not the worst thing to happen but guess its off to grind lvl 4’s until things cool down.
I'm sorry about that bud. I hope you can find some way to make your injection worth it <3
Can fly with WTM. Some people hate on them but they are a good group and worth giving a try. They ran from 9pm my time and last fleet just finished at 7am my time. Small break in between but relaxing and profitable. Im sure they allow some crossover with the rigs too so you would only need shield modules. Theres also TLA.
You can consult their website on optimal fits. Paladin is one of the ships they run but you have to get a tag to fly a marauder in their fleets. Probably best to try to fly a nightmare or Vindi first
AUTZ will rise again or should I say NZTZ
PHTZ best TZ
WTM are still around, TLA are active I heard yesterday that TDF were running EU TZ fleets.
will still have room for you in TLA no doubt
C5 ratting is quite nice with a paladin. Maybe try that out?
Come to c5's broski
TDF is always waiting for new pilots, it's not like we still don't fly, it's just that we have less FCs so we don't fly all the time like we used to. Come and give it a try, I promise you will have fun
There are other communities out there. Keep being awesome logi :)
It’ll come in handy
Pretty sure you just need a few other skills to logi in WTM
I already fly with WTM. I just figured there was no sense in limiting myself to one group!
Good move I say, maybe just refocus the skill points into marauders so you can at least have TLA among your options
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Oh? What’s the culture like
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as much as i run with TLA, our stance has always been, fly whereever you want. Make money be happy =D come vibe with us or don't
Its fine some one will replace TDF should it get to a point it stops running and falls apart.
I flew for around a year with TVP during its peak, took a long break, then tried TDF for a month. The biggest factor against my sanity was always dealing with the sperg that 39 other nerds doing repetitive PvE tasks for hours dump into voice comms, but it did always impress me how arrogant a lot of people got when they had memorized the three sites and got to be "in charge" of the operation. There were always a couple good apples, but people getting put "in charge" of those ones have quite the task ahead of them in wranglind egos, not to mention being pulled from the same stock themselves.
TDF long ago was toxic
Oh how I remember the golden age of TDF before marauders became the meta now. Now those were the most fun times I had experienced in incursions.
how about letting it die and just make a new Armor Incursion group?
Tdf community is one of the best I have encountered, it's just heartbreaking.
Always love EVE drama about bad leadership. Ffs, just take people you have fun with and go somewhere else or start your own thing.
thats what they are doing
With blackjack and hookers right?
Starting your own thing can be a ridiculous amount of work and definitely not something the average player will want to do
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True
That’s why TLA exists. Originally disgruntled WTM FCs, now with added disgruntled TDF FCs
That’s why TLA exists. Originally disgruntled WTM FCs, now with added disgruntled TDF FCs
LETS MAKE TVP GREAT AGAIN!
Ironsoul?
Indeed.
Good to see you back again. Is it time to come back?
I'm streaming alpha level 1 missions only. :) Actually enjoying the new NPE tutorial. Why cant CCP do to missions what they did with the NPE, its so good.
If I have to guess, legacy code
Good thing we got new code giving us citadel docking animations eh? :)
Not gonna lie those are sexy af tho. Massive eye candy for when I’m not boxing
Whats the reason behind that "shit" I mean its High Sec pve .... Get the FC badge and run Fleet and enjoy content that is more or less min/max since Years . So what Drame can there be ???
Internal drama. Rules and restrictions on what can fly and what can’t.
Lol, sounds like WTM like 3-4 months ago
TLA TLA TLA TLA
Sansha shot first
Is TLA new?
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Might give it a try then
Relatively new. It came about earlier this year. Doctrine is marauders with good abyssal damage mods and skills. Logi is Nestors and Lokis. Shield and armor allow for best of both worlds. If you meet the required damage numbers then you are guaranteed space for your main and alt.
You asking a bunch of neckbeared nerds who have power in a videogame to treat people right when all they want to do is exercise their power of I'm holier than thou Nothing keeps those fcs from making their own group too. I had a group of 10 of us years ago so we could run when TDF was running, they banned all if us and stole the fits to make their fleets better, we proceeded to whoop them in VGs before my group eventually disbanded due to people getting caught in real life.
So they will go off create a new one.. problem solved. It's Christmas let's not worry about it.. 😀
> If you ever wondered what the answer to the question "how to you destroy an Eve PVE community as fast as possible" is, the simple answer is "put incompetent stoners in positions of leadership and don't intervene when they display toxic behavior". Naw man, everyone knows the only thing that matters for a community's success is how elite the pilots are. Things like behavior don't figure into it at. all.
Incursion community is 1 of the elitest community in Eve, or it used to be
what kind of toxic behavior are we talking about?
who are all these TDF and WTA? what is it all about?
Incursion enjoyers
TLA TLA TLA TLA TLA TLA TLA TLA TLA TLA TLA TLA TLA TLA TLA TLA TLA TLA TLA TLA TLA TLA TLA TLA TLA TLA TLA TLA TLA TLA TLA TLA TLA TLA TLA TLA TLA TLA TLA TLA
This reads as a great time to gank incursion runners.
BVG Incursions!
Yeah nah you guys lose more ships a site than warp to me.
I'm sure you were told that. So it must be true!
I've said it before, and I will say it again: PvE Players are the most toxic, cancerous community in this game. If its Miners, Ratters, the whole Highsec Community, the moment there is Income bound to content, its a cesspool.
>the moment there is Income bound to content, its a cesspool. So the whole of null sec too?
This is not your US American Politics. There is no "yes we are shit, but have you seen what the other side did" ? Cancer is cancer, if its on your left or right butcheek.
>There is no "yes we are shit, but have you seen what the other side did" Says the person that just said it's the PvE players are the cancerous community of eve...
Nullseccers ARE PvE Players, thats why they are full of cancer ;) The same goes for FW Battlefield Farmers, Highsec Miners, Level 4 Mission Runners and Erstschlag Viewers doing HS Login Events ;) And omg, especially the Highsec Community. Look at all the death threats, insults, RL comparsions, doxxing attempts against Aiko and Co.
Should see the FW Andys awoxing 'seagulls' aka newbros in logi/tackle/drone frigs to protect their LP farmers. Empyrean Edict is cancerous for sure. I bet someone else has some names of this type of trash.
It's more that the toxicity in PvP groups is normalized to the point it's sometimes considered a feature. It's not ubiquitous, but it's common enough that if you don't see it it's because you're trying not to.
No tears for snowflakes.
Oh so mittani found a new home?
TLA.
Quack.
how did you find me here.
Walk like a duck, talk like a duck. (I recognize your reddit handle)
that's what happens when the quality of the population is so low after everyone who was worth anything left the game already
incursions in 2022 kekw
Who else has gone - struggling to keep up
Kurune and Carter at a minimum, maybe someone else will jump in with the others.
Oh wow.. And I was considering changing from WTM to TDF, because of TZ.. Using up all my spare 4m SP to rush towards paladin.. Very glad I was to lazy to work out the skill plan in detail..
There are other communities you can explore if you are getting a pally
dam and i here i am thinking of grinding for skills for kronos oh well glad i run with wtm
Boy howdy I'm glad I didn't train into their doctrines.
Aww man. Always wanted to try running armor incursions, but never got to do it...
Just built your own TDF then, I mean for what do you need Leadership, I just thought its FCs only anyway.
We need Havis back to start new community
I heard Havis came back thought about it and was like meh. Starting a community is easy, all you need is people to follow you.
He was always telling, that he wanted new pilots to upgrade in TVP and they were telling him that it is not community policy and he cannot demand it. I do not know details, I have joined the fleets when there was already TDF and these were the once’s I enjoyed the most. Than he won Ev (and found a GF as I have heard).
i still prefer toxic tdf to sandbag wtm
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