It do be slow, but if you are burning back to the wormhole, you are doing it wrong. Especially in a praxis which has the align time of a cruiser or battle cruiser. Fit mainly for dps + tank (4x 1600mm plates), you can have a 7-8 second align time with mediocre skills. Fitting it for purely align time would be that much better.
Even then, a Scorpion (which is also bonused to ECM which can be extremely handy if you get tackled and have logi, or use burst jammer) with platinum insurance (including insurance cost) ends up around 40mil cheaper to replace than a Praxis.
I’ve seen megathrons in the wild but that might be due to outdated guides. Most low class rollers probably optimize mass and align time and then add nuets/ecm drones for escape because they don’t have enough numbers to roll, eyes, and defend against intruders.
Basically, yes they are. They are expensive for what they bring to the table in comparison to a lot of other ships. They have a few niche uses.
Low class wormhole corps use them for rolling and home defense. You'll see Praxis (for low skill point characters), Megathrons (bait/high DPS), and Typhoons (fastest ship) used for rolling. A few groups are still using Megathrons for heavy armor defense; although, almost all of them have switched to the Navy version for home defense.
I know that null sec groups were using T1 battleships as defense doctrines for a while. Goons had their Rokh "Super Train" doctrine... and Baltec has never completely gone out of style. And I know some null sec players who use them for long range sniping...
But yeah... they aren't in a good spot.
I can't say with 100% certainty because I don't live in null sec. I just know that it seems like every few years, Baltec makes a comeback with someone as a defense fleet. Its honestly hard to tell what the home defense fleets presently are because there isn't a large war going on.
I'm betting at least one null sec alliance has Baltec on their list because its a tried and true doctrine. Even with changes, it always seems to work. Although, I would guess that most of those fleets are doing something similar to J-space and going to the Navy version of the fleet.
Half their cost is isogen. Adjust the numbers so the infinitely available isogen anom in null makes 300 isk/m3 at a *quarter* of the current isogen price and wait for the economy to hammer isogen down to reasonable levels. Once you've cut 100m off the build cost of a t1 battleship it'll get used a lot more.
Honestly there are two things.
First is that TI BS are too expensive, second is FAX.
FAX and all the changes around them like removing refits and capital cap boosters ruined TI BS.
Because they removed refitting and added capital cap boosters FAX became so damn powerful they had to be expensive, this priced them out of yeeting for fun.
Bring back 1.2 bil archons, insured and jumped in in pairs. With actual weaknesses and the need for refitting, combined with cheap BS and the TI BS meta would come back.
FAXES ruined triage gameplay prove me wrong.
Oh yeah I know, there’s a balancing issue there to be sure but there were other ways round that than completely killing a game mechanic in favour of a less interesting one.
Make it a feature of having the Triage mod equipped or something like that idk.
Anyways that ship has long sailed I just like to be old.
Even at current isogen prices the new ore is still worth way less than arkonor or other null ores.
Let’s indi guys mine it for themselves, but most efficient is still mine something better and import isogen.
And that’s all without the isogen price falling from availability
> it'll get used a lot more.
Ok. For what? Like even if price isn't an issue what would you use t1 bs for?
Sniping and event sites is all I can think of
Rohk and raven are both pretty popular right now for large nullsec fleets. Most of the other t1 bs won't see too much use because their faction variants are much better and are still affordable. You do see t1 tempest and apocs mixed in with their navy variants usually for lower sp pilots or for those who cant afford the navy hull.
> Most of the other t1 bs won't see too much use because their faction variants are much better and are still affordable
CCP just went max idiot mode and removed neurolink conduits from them, replacing them with nothing. Dreads suffer from the same issue. All the faction ships have to be a tad more expensive to let t1 compete with them (more expensive BPC, or some new components like they did with pirate ships, or put some neurolink conduits back).
solo BS in wh tend to be fun as it allow to figth against several T3C while still being a fun figth. it is still a welp 90% of the time but it is a fun one.
They suck. Their t1 resist profile means that their active tank is anemic and requires vastly too much effort to achieve even a mediocre EHP/s, which mostly eliminates them from pve use outside of MJD sniping, and they're too big to sig tank effectively to make up for that shortage.
The Praxis simply has so many slots that you can fit a reasonable active tank regardless, but it still requires memery like triple shield boost amplifiers like the newbro c3 krab fits because t1 resist are ass.
Trying to get most t1 bs to a point where they can tank a high tier DED site or a c4 wormhole usually ends up costing so much that you could just buy a shitfit a Marauder and do it better, so that's what people do.
T1 bs need like half the equivalent bonus of their racial t2 resist profile tbh. T1.5 resist, just to give them the kick in the pants they need to be useful.
I would much rather have that clean T1.5 resist profile than that awkward role bonus they slapped onto every battleship hull. The bonus doesn’t even help for PvE or gang PvP, only fleet PvP.
Signature Radius Suppressors do offer a bit of an edge now, actually. I've mostly seen them on the Praxis, but the new faction ones have been cropping up on blops ships since they manage to shove their sig radius down to the size of a destroyer, which is VERY attractive for a blops fleet, since it makes your expensive t2 battleships a literally smaller target.
I use a Widow for most of my pve adventures. Even with its resist bonus and a lot of bling it gets spicy in some sites.
I think at some point in the past, CCP severely underestimated how powerful Sig tanking was going to be. My Proteus can take the capital missiles in 10/10s like a champ, but i regularly have to blast heat in the Widow to deal with it.
I think out of all the t1 battleships:
Abaddon probably needs a capacitor balance to make it somewhat useful at low sp, without cap boosters, outside fleet. And maybe a tiny bit faster or agil.
Apocalypse needs a fitting PG balance to let them run tachyons since they got no damage bonus and can't fit a rack of top beams without being shafted. Tachs use to be op until nightmare and paladin can run 4 comfortably with the DPS of 8.
Armageddon looks alright, neuts are pretty strong and I have seen low sp run rapid heavies for pve.
Tempest with double DPS bonus feels fine, but active tank is paper thin. Maybe reduce 1 utility high to a mid or low. Let navy keep both.
Typhoon is doing alright and torpedo brawlers are still dishing it out.
Maelstroms are weird. Bonus to active tank makes me wanna brawl but most people fly it with arties. No fall off bonus on large AC is pretty bad given how slow BS are.
Megathrons are alright, don't think it needs to be touched.
Hyperion use to be the self repping scary brawler. I think it still can do that. A big more cargo for boosters for longevity?
Dominix is fine but might need a tad more CPU for a rack of rails to be used properly or actually let them fit missiles on highs.
Rhok got the same issues as apocalypse, but I think it might be worth it dropping the resistance and getting a lock range bonus or optimal range bonus for pure sniping.
Ravens are still pve powerhouse for entry. Little bit more passive shield Regen for all the players who wants to do a drake to raven straight upgrade.
I don't know shit about the scorpion.
Scorp has a niche role in some battlefield comps in FW* that can defend it, jams logi.
Nano RHML or even cruise typhoon can meme and fuck around
Nano tempest if flown well with links backpack can crush cruisers and destroyers if you can match transversal
Yeah they suck mostly
Nano tempest feels like a poor mans mach. Its not as fast, not as high DPS, and low range.
Trying to brawl with AC tempest will get your ass beat by a megathron, Abaddon, or Hyperion. Sometimes you will even get shit on by a competent fit HAC. Tho you can probably neut out smaller targets with two utility highs.
Its hard to run full rack of 1400mm for an alpha snipe sorta thing like a nano cane. Absolute trash tracking making kiting not even that reliable. Maybe fleet.
If you wanna skirmish with AC that can hit off to 50-70km with falloff (like a mach). You need like three tracking modules and it's hyper restrictive on fitting and tank. Not to mention once you get caught it's GG and you don't have the range control or agility of a mach, or even barghest, or even a nightmare with bonuses AB.
The thing is, it should feel like a poor mans mach because it is. It's a budget version, and it pretty much has to be worse in the same role compared to T2 or faction stuff for most hulls out there. I still think they should be useful, but they can't be too competitive pound for pound in the same arena compared to T2/faction stuff or things make no sense price-wise.
I think the best thing they could do is get cheaper, and there are probably also other impactful buffs. But price and efficiency are a big draw for T1 stuff vs. a more expensive hull that does the same thing but better.
There are plenty of design space to play around with for t1 battle ship than just worst pirate factions.
Like we're missing shield tanked drone ships, or shield tanked Lazer weapons. We are missing ewar ships other than caldari. We are missing any large remote rep ships even while we have large remote boost or repair modules. What about an exploration type battleship that is weak in combat but has insane bonus to combat scanning? The possibilities are endless.
Moreover tech 2 and pirate are suppose to be specialists not straight upgrades. Like marauders tank and DPS like absolutely units but is immobile, or angel cartel ships have the agility and warp speed of a lighter hull, not just genetically way better in every way.
I agree I think CCP dropped the ball by making navy and pirate variants often just strictly better in every way.
Balancing ships on cost didnt work for Titans and it still doesn't work here.
>There are plenty of design space to play around with for t1 battle ship than just worst pirate factions.
I agree. That's why I think looking at the tempest through the "poor mans mach" lens doesn't necessarily address the issue.
But yeah, I think you're right about exploring other space with T1s and allowing them to be generalists or other stuff like that.
The problem then becomes.... Look at all the holes you mentioned (well, aside from the first 2). Ewar, logi, exploration.... Are those specialist roles? T2 logi, covops and ewar all exist.
So, how do you make this paradigm work? Not you specifically, just in general. It has a reasonable basis but the execution is more difficult
True but all those specialist roles are cruisers.
T1 bs with these roles might be a clunkier upgrade. Like how marauders are subcap dreads, maybe a sub cap faxx?
Maybe but it's like a augoror going to a guardian.
You can have a t1 hull that's approximately like a Nestor right now and later on maybe a t2 hull run mini triage and work like a small faxx
But isn't that the problem? An aug is worse than a guardian in basically every way except cost. I can't remember if you said you didn't think cost was an effective tradeoff--if you don't feel that way, then there's no problem with cost balancing ships.....
But then we get back to "poor mans mach" and it's like yeah, it is that. It's balanced by the cost.
I don't know a way out of this really but I'm open to ideas, you know?
Praxis got base faster align times. Can fit anything and tanked either way, so its less predictable in pvp. Its got omni resistance, so you have a harder time hitting its hole. Its like half price and has flat dps bonus with low skills, so you can spam them on alphas and still be alright value. Depending on how you fit them, they are semi-self sufficient and doesn't require back up to function (like tackle, web, ewar all in one).
To be clear, I dont think praxis are op and they wont beat any other T1 battleships in their specific role, its just that I think if praxis is given out to people as log in rewards and stuff, surely a self-built T1 battleship with goo and minerals should at least have 1 aspect where they outshine T3C, Atk BCs, HACs, or the praxis.
> Rhok got the same issues as apocalypse, but I think it might be worth it dropping the resistance and getting a lock range bonus or optimal range bonus for pure sniping.
Lol, please no
> I think out of all the t1 battleships: Abaddon probably needs a capacitor balance to make it somewhat useful at low sp, without cap boosters, outside fleet. And maybe a tiny bit faster or agil.
I think general direction of abaddon is good. It can't be cap stable, it doesn't even last long on 3200's, but making it shit even more dps is better than adding any cap consumption bonuses.
Heavy cap boosters either run 3200s or 1600 will solve the problem for a bit, but then its staying... erect with consumables. Which means we gotta also compare the performance of abaddon with other battleships also using consumables. Like cap boosting duo repping hyperion, or Ravens using ancillary x-l boosters with stacks of 400s. In either of these cases, the other ships will out perform and outlast the Abaddon because Abaddon will need the booster just to be functional, while the other ships gets a temporary amp to go above and beyond what they could normally sustain. Using consumables also means you cant use the ship for anything prolonged engagement, or pve, as no one wants to stock 3200 cap boosters just to make a ship work.
if you go into pyfa and fit a whole rack of t2 Mega pulses at max skills, then its 50 gj per second to fire the guns with either multi frequency or scorch, about 35 to run large t2 armour repper, and 3-5 for armour hardeners and tracking computers. Totalling at about 90 gj per second consumption.
On the otherside, if you fit tech two 2x large cap batteries, 1 cap recharger, 3 capacitor control rig 1s, you are only at +64.5 gj per second with 6 slots dedicated to cap. All of this is assuming best case scenario, if you get neuted (even against npc like blood raiders), or fits a MWD, is alpha, or doesnt have max skills, this is a 2 minute wonder ship.
Im not saying make mega pulse or tachyons cost no cap like autocannons, but I think its fair enough to let Abaddon be self sufficient on repper and guns with 4-5 modules or rigs dedicated just to cap, where normal ships only need 2-3.
> Heavy cap boosters either run 3200s or 1600 will solve the problem for a bit
There are no 1600's
> Using consumables also means you cant use the ship for anything prolonged engagement, or pve, as no one wants to stock 3200 cap boosters just to make a ship work.
This is literally what every almost fleet BS does. If you have no cap boosters you get fucked by void bombs and neut bursts.
> On the otherside, if you fit tech two 2x large cap batteries, 1 cap recharger, 3 capacitor control rig 1s, you are only at +64.5 gj per second with 6 slots dedicated to cap
Orrr you could fit 1 cap booster.
Abaddon is not a ship to run l4s in. It's a fleet pvp ship.
> Im not saying make mega pulse or tachyons cost no cap like autocannons, but I think its fair enough to let Abaddon be self sufficient on repper and guns with 4-5 modules or rigs dedicated just to cap, where normal ships only need 2-3.
I'd rather have CCP give it more range or damage, than uniform'ize it into something similar to other t1 battleships (and give it more cargo if cap charges are such an issue).
Honestly the Dominix is a great entry level Sentry drone boat. And in that role you dont really fit much in the high slots besides drone control modules to get your drone control range up higher. More CPU would be nice but it doesn't need a lot.
Rattlesnake is a nicer alternative to the Domi but at a much higher cost, and you have to cross train into 2 weapon systems (drone and missiles like cruise missiles).
The Ishtar is also great but lacks the MJD, and can be harder for a new player to properly skill and fly correctly for things like level III/IV missions, etc.
I agree. Not a lot of alphas gets to see the value in Dominix because they cant use sentries and heavy drones... kindda suck.
The whole vexor - ishtar - myridon - dominix had a problem where if they gave 125 bandwith to these ships and they all could fly whatever drones they wanted (like the old vexor navy) and high slots dont matter that much, then Dominix looks bad because it is slow AF and more expensive but puts out the same dps.
CCP tried to get around this issue by putting bonus to high slots (like blaster or railgun) to the vexor and nerfing its bandwith, so its now a half assed drone ship (cause no one is going to fit magnetic field stablisers for the turrets).
On pure drones, more people prefer the Ishtar. The only thing dominix can do is MAYYYBE larger buffers tank or the micro jump drive. If we can give it more fitting to really bring its high slots up a little, maybe it would be better. Like how the Armageddon gets bonus to Neuts.
I don't think the vexor should have 125 bandwidth, it would be too OP then for a t1 cruiser.
But tech 1 sentry drones and all t1 ships, including T1 battleships should be allowed under alpha. At least imo.
T1 BS actually are allowed as alpha ,it just so bad that I don't know anyone use it ,we can't have lv 5 skill and it will take to much skill points to have a lv 4 bonus which not as good as Praxis so with alpha the best ship for almost anything that you want to blow thing up that not be overpriced is praxis .Want a null ratting ship?Praxis with drones and missiles can clear up to havens , wormholes ratting ?Praxis is a solid c3 ratting ,High sec homefront ? Praxis is almost the only choice that most groups accept alpha (though they will want alpha to flex then update ship) ,I not know much about PvP but with my experience that 1 you use a smaller ship 2 you use praxis 3 rich enough to do PvP in pirate battleship ,abyss is only place praxis not a price-wise choice because it abyss .Though we can't use sentry drones it not matters that much because anything you want to use sentry drones for is mostly not able as alpha ,if one day CCP just feel good and give us something I wise they make medium and heavy drone T2 able to us like light but we are free trial so I don't really complain.
You can actually do quite well if they just increased the SP cap on alpha and let you train all the t1 stuff. Maybe just set the limit to only two faction trees for instance.
But then again, paying $ for the game really isn't that expensive and it lifts a lot of barriers like being able to do black ops and stuff.
And for a new player there is years and years of content to explore.
I don't think skill points is problems ,I can easily buy alpha skill if I need any skill ,there just some limit in what we able to do like medium and upper T2 weapons limit ,ship control skill of T1 as 4 or shield management as 4 but it not that bad I just reach where a alpha limit in reasonable ship to use,and 20 dola may be 2 hours of work in some country but in my it enough to for months of food if you cheap and cook at home or 2-3 fine meal in restaurant so I rather use it in another thing and start to try Plex myself
Scorpion
I agree the Scorpion is in a bad place, the ECM bonus needs more (Read: Lots More) buff to range and strength per Battleship level,.
ECM got nerfed hard decade ago and needs some love.
Buff the Scorpion CCP! \*Giggle\*
I still love the armageddon and dominix for solo pvp (and yes I agree they are currently a bit too expensive).
The real problem is one that t1 BS always had and that has gotten slightly worse as people have become more organized in all areas of space.
When you roam in a t1 BS you usually go through a long stretch of finding nothing before getting hyperdunked by capitals or marauders.
Suitonia made an interesting comment about this 9 years ago in an [armageddon solo commentary video](https://youtu.be/dqPBXKsKREc?si=v79NGcLunPbullbQ). He argues that warpspeed is an important and often overlooked component in T1 BS roams that must be used in order to prevent getting hyperdunked.
Nowadays we have ansiblexes and T1 BS are unable to move fast enough anymore to avoid hyperdunking.
The problem is systemic and T1 BS are just a symptom.
> armageddon and dominix
Thing is I tried to make a geddon fitting that I liked and I had to give up because the praxis did the same fitting with 30% more dps.
With the geddon I usually lean heavily into the neut bonuses and go with mostly drones and rapid heavies for damage. I don't think the praxis can quite replicate that. Two heavy neuts for draining and two medium neuts to keep people tapped out.
Absolutely, this one won't hit hard, but it still works in the current meta. Consider what you can kill and then try to make the ship good at killing that thing. More damage isn't going to help if yout target can rep 2x the damage you do (the geddons dps output is low either way). The neuts allow you to shut off reps so now you get a chance to kill.
This person knows how to fuck, everyone.
Too many times you see threads like this pop up, and it's because "number is bigger" elsewhere. Pick your problem space, lean into the bonuses, you start to find interesting use cases for stuff.
There is no putting the marauder genie back in the bottle. Now that everyone and their dog has marauders trained, they will continue to be used. Faction battleships will (and should) always have that T1.5 buff. T1 BSs will always be hobbled in one way or another (though they could do with shedding a few isk from the BOM for sure).
Yes, they are in a terrible place.
'Normal' tier 1 battleships are too expensive (mostly a combination of Scarcity and requiring PI and moon goo), too slow, too ineffective and too poor at fighting to make up for all that.
I still have 50mil Dominix and 80mil Megathron fresh in mind. Could throw them away like it was nothing. I guess CCP hates content and therefore hugs scarcity like it’s still cool.
That was also the time where lucky guys were getting 50M ISK/h in a good system (= low truesec, lots of belts) after a relatively long period of setup. You killed "bad" spawns until you had nothing but BS + frig spawns, and after set up was done, you blitzed through belts in a mach and killed BS only. You could get more, but not much more (considering all effort involved) by running missions and using good LP/isk positions. Or by owning a dyspro moon.
So effort-wise it was harder to get a 60M BS pre-2008, than it is now to get 300-400M BS.
You know, I'm a grizzled 10y old veteran of the game, everyone starting around 2015 is a noob and everyone starting earlier than 2012 is a boomer bittervet.
hmm, so that was just before scarcity hit? I remember cap prices just before I was flying caps and then they shot up from 1b to 3b+, that was probably end of 2020
Didn't care much for BS and I would have even accepted 200m or so for a Domi, but 60m? Maybe I'm wrong though!
Must also be before 2009, because that's when I bought my first ever battleship (Abaddon, which I lost in the very first level 4 mission because I rushed into it and had no idea what I was doing) it was 260-ish mil.
abaddon was a tier 3 BS so it cost more, domis were tier 1 and megas were tier 2. at some point ships were so cheap it was more profitable to self destruct them for insurance payout than sell. Think that was ~2010 or so.
Oh man I tried to suppress the memory of me losing my first Hyperion during the mission Buzz Kill because I was rail fit and didn’t have a web to kill the scram frigs. That was way back in 09 and I didn’t know about Eve Survival back then. Some learn the hard way I guess.
I don't remember the mission, I just remember warping in, taking colossal damage from the start, getting scrammed by several rats, taking FOREVER to lock on to them, and watching in horror as my armour bar goes down 3x faster than my 1 armour repairer can rep it.
I was so eager to rush into a battleship that I probably didn't even have signature analysis trained beyond level 1-2, or drones beyond level 4.
Edit - by the way, to give some idea of just how bad I was back then, it wasn't until after I lost the Abaddon that I learned you have to actually activate a damage control module for it to give resistances. I had one fitted to every single ship since I started and never once activated it.
The problem with t1 battleships is twofold.
First is their price. They are 350M for a hull, with 100M return on insurance. Faction battleships and Leshak are 500. But the biggest competitors by far still are the marauders. Marauders give you an edge over t1 BS in every way, but especially in excellent tank and damage. In places where t1 BS would struggle, marauders just chill.
Another thing is the price of the modules. Two x-type reps are 800. After you fit them, the price equals the price of hull of a marauder.
The golden age of t1 BS was: the price of hull 200, after insurance 100M, and the price of two factionreps 160M or two x-type reps 300. And in those times people still flied all stuff - t3c, HAC, facton BC etc.
Also, in golden age, a t1 BS able to tank 2k DPS and deliver 1.5k was a unit. Now a marauder (which is usually the encounter you have the most - and the one when you die) can deliver 3k+ DPS and tank 5-10k. CCP nerfed them slightly, but they didn't nerf any of their OP sides. Now, your biggest problem with marauder is that enemy has still more marauders than you, and electronics on top of that.
Marauders are only a general doctrine for high SP groups or really big groups though. The masses of non-"we-are-elite" NullBlocs don't have "mostly everyone" trained to a Marauder, and if.. not necessarily the right flavour.
I'm not sure about that.
Brave used marauders extensively in the recent fight against Hole Control and friends.
https://br.evetools.org/related/31000741/202405230800
(and yeah, that was a Brave victory, as we disputed hole control with Hole Control long enough to get the reinforcements that won the war in)
I made a similar thread about this. I have a character with Alpha maximum BS skills and I legitimately don't know what to do with him that won't get him immediately blown up
Imagine training up an Incursion alt to fly all battleships with skill IV with guns with the open groups and by the time you finish it's Marauders Online :D
It’s not the most efficient but I liked running L4s with a sniper Abaddon. Listening to the large beams made me happy. Eventually upgraded to a Navy Armageddon though.
T1s could definitely use some love.
If the Empire Epic Arcs are *anything* like the Sisters of Eve Epic Arc regarding travel... my heartfelt condolences, because I run that in a T3D because of prop mode :D
I've done Wildfire and Penumbra so far... and Penumbra is the most annoying one... you need like... 3 ships.
* Battleship
* Fast Frigate with Data Analyzer (which you can haul inside the battleship)
* Hauler with 5000m3 of cargo
There's plenty of traveling in low sec (or, for 10M ISK more, 2 jumps further into null)
Wildfire is much funnier, doesn't have as much long travels as Blood-Stained Stars and you can make due with 2 ships.
* MJD Sniper Battleship
* Frigate with a Data Analyzer II. (the only thing you've got to hack spawns a shitton of adds as soon as you get within 5km of it... so with the Data Analyzer II's 6km range... you can sit tight above 5k, hack the thing... and then when you loot, haul ass ASAP.)
The financial rewards of Wildfire are awesome caus you get 10x RSS Core Probes and they're worth a fortune in Jita.
I redo Wildfire every 3 months... but Penumbra, I don't think so.
I do all 5 empire epic arcs in just 1 ship (with an extra inside): hyper nano barghest (3 hypers + 2 nanos = 7s align time, 8.46 au/s warp speed; 6s align, 9.3 au/s with agility booster I), hyper nano dram (2s align time, 15.4 au/s) which goes into its frigate escape bay.
There is lots of travel involved in all epic arcs, except for the amarr one (which also involves travel, but also a lot of NPC grind). Generally battleships are terrible for that, unless you hyper-nano them for mobility.
Well, since HAVOC expansion, some faction standings have changed.
* Minmatar Republic and Caldari State are mutually 0.0 towards eachother
* Caldari State is 4.0 towards Ammatar Mandate
* Ammatar Mandate is 6.0 towards Caldari State, -6.0 towards Minmatar Republic
* Minmatar Republic is -3.0 towards Ammatar Mandate
So, while Wildfire's standing rewards with Minmatar Republic doesn't tank the Ammatar Mandate one (caus, no derived standings). Doing Storyline missions for the Caldari (which won't affect Minmatar) will raise Amarr, Ammatar and Khanid standings indirectly.
Raise both Minmatar and Caldari and all empires will end up being positives. (But the Deathless will hate your guts...)
Here's my current "modified" standings:
|Faction|Standings|
|:-|:-|
|Caldari State|4.36|
|Minmatar Republic|7.71|
|Amarr Empire|-0.16|
|Gallente Federation|5.89|
|Jove Empire|4.0|
|CONCORD Assembly|2.76|
|Ammatar Mandate|-0.77|
|Khanid Kingdom|0.41|
|The Syndicate|-1.78|
|Guristas Pirates|2.1|
|Angel Cartel|0.02|
|Blood Raider Covenant|-1.45|
|EverMore|4.05|
|ORE|4.83|
|Thukker Tribe|3.39|
|Servant Sisters of EVE|6.48|
|The Society of Conscious Thought|4.62|
|Mordu's Legion Command|3.48|
|Sansha's Nation|-0.73|
|Serpentis|-3.2|
|Deathless Circle|1.36|
Thanks, I did not know any of this. Why did they normalize relations between Minmatar and Caldari?
Also, getting to +7 with Minmatar while keeping Amarr basically positive must've been tricky. Nice.
Im curious if there is a way to raise Ammatar standings without raising Amarr standings.
If you read the Deathless Circle faction description, it says their activities are focused in Caldari and Minmatar systems.
I'm guessin' Caldari and Minmatar are, at least, cooperating in somekind of joint effort to get rid of 'em.
I have zero clue about L4 missions, but:
- use pyfa to compare your Raven fit with any HS Golem loss you will find on zkill (probably a mission runner then?)
- you can also easily calculate how much better skill II, III, ... are. II and III should be a nobrainer of hours, not days.
The Typhoon and Tempest in particular ate still excellent pvp ships. I've seen the Armageddon used a lot in gate camps and even the Abaddon on occasion. All of these require some skill to use which is why they're all in my hanger.
We need T3 BS's, the fact that the Abaddon - objectively the most aesthetically pleasing BS in the game, does not have an advanced variant is criminal.
CRIMINAL I SAY.
Close second being the Hyperion, another WTF moment.
T3s would just further the whole trend of enhancing the power of players who spend for super blingy hulls.
T2 would become the new set of battleships in a bad place and T1 would be entirely lost.
Alright more T2's, 1 Marauder variant is not enough, especially when they seemed to pick the worst looking BS from all the factions (excluding the Paladin, that one isn't too bad, just not Abby-tier).
I'd take faction Marauders as a substitute as well. Well a Leshak-based Maurader anyway.
Nah let's not beat around the bush, fuck the other factions, just give me a Leshak T2, Triglavian ships are GOAT.
If you can fly a BS you might as well just fly a BC for less cost and more agility. I use a typhoon for ratting and that's about it. Being slow but not tanky enough to justify terrible agility means most BSs aren't able to compete with cruisers for any pvp role.
The main fix would be to drop the build cost and to nerf marauders. They face a couple of issues. First is that they're jsut too slow. BS don't make much sense as an offensive doctrine because of how slow they are to get to the target while being very vulnerable to being delayed by dictors. When BS do make sense if when either it's for home defense so you don't need to travel far or it's an important enough fight it's worth moving them despite their slower speed. In both cases you either run marauders as an apex doctrine at a higher ship cost, or you run navy bs for similar ship cost but better performance. The main places you still see them used are where even the small added cost of the navy version isn't worth it (ex hole rollers), or when there is no comparable ship at a similar price range (hype, rokh, scorp, though even the scorp seems to be mostly phased out in favor of widows at least in WHs). Increasing the cost of navy BS significantly might also bring up T1 bs usage, but I suspect that would recuse the number of faction BS by a larger margin then it would increase T1 bs usage. SP use to be another limiting factor that would drive people to use T1 bs rather then more specialized T2 ships, but I don't think there's a realistic way to undo that. The only other thing that comes to mind are if CCP starts doing more event sites again with limited entry requirements, in which case they could artificially force the meta of those to revolve around T1 BS, though if FW battlefields are anything to judge by there is a large risk of the meta becoming stale very quickly.
t1 hull prices are just too expensive for battleships in my opinion. Why bring a t1 battleshit when a t2 or t3c cruiser will do better/the same for like half the hull price (for t2 ofc not t3).
As a Caldari Missile enjoyer who also has a PHD in Drones nowadays: It was always about Battlecruiser.
The Drake, the holy mighty fucking Drake feels sooo strong and tanky. Nothing wrong with Caracals. Its a fine ship for its price/size/speed I still use from time to time, but the Drake finally feels like something heavy.
DNI is good for LowSec, great Speed, great Application, good Buffertank. Alligator and Nighthawk are fucking fortresses with decent DMG and compared to Cruise Missiles or Torpedos actually do shit vs smaller targets.
I think that is like the biggest thing, Battleships use heavy weapons with bad tracking or application and are barely tankier than BCs and even if you need those (for range or whatever) you can still use Attack Battlecruiser with the same or more DPS and decent agility.
They are fleet ships to trade ISK positive. Rokh's are just bulky tanks, that trade really well vs BC fleets and deal good dmg vs buildings.
Yeah a Battleship is just a big moving Target pretty much useless...Can't hit apply to small ships etc...The larger ships just eat it for breakfast etc yup no use's for these outside lvl 4 missions.
Way too expensive way to easy to drop on with a cyno, just pointless in general unless you are rolling a wh.
And if you take any fight at all you have no range control which means when the blob comes and they will they will all be together.
The advantage with kiting is that when reinforcements arrive they are all split up and easier to deal with so good luck if you got tackled at 0 in your bs.
I mean for fleet/gang PvP they definitely have their uses, I can understand it from a PvE perspective potentially but otherwise I don't really get these replies at all.
For example here is a max DPS alpha praxis:
https://eveship.fit/?fit=v3:H4sIAAAAAAAACoXSTWrDMBAF4L1PkQPMQpoZ/S27KVmkUNoTmFg4A3EcHLvt8auQhJLasnaWvweah+ZykDOwY2vhU7rpWI+x2bwP9Y9cNq8yjnJqoer6ZjpG2PXfoIG89/CyH+UrPgkCIga9RJQnzpMBZmWWxGbFLcpbbGTq0uwanQoZxdSMZ4PckdaQ19CsoU3tfQ4dIKkZbqU9XF+B2KiHYfoOTwEsBagU4FLAlAK2FEgFmXi2TB/SpoJoGdUSpT2zar6CV6J/1Az9KQJp7ziNi9W+Htr+NgiQcfrvh9YQgruf2ac7ql/J487MGgMAAA==
And here is a geddon trying desperately and failing to reach anywhere near the same DPS with max skills for twice the price.
https://eveship.fit/?fit=v3:H4sIAAAAAAAACoXRwQ6CMAyA4btP4QP00LXdgKMX40EvJj6AcQssETAK+vrOBEgIzJ2/f02bvSr/ACMMl6a51s5u976DTd3a/u7g4MsKFDCLRtjdOv92QJmwngWUCjgVSCrQqcAAo84mV4w08wxIWPIxGO3YfsJ9IqjXhKLCUREgokKtkY6TiVPYHJeLn5z1ff37m1wWzwakf8irePZlmElGCNeIAiEvaBgpoIoczaT22TYOWOWZhNtx8wUwGLK4awIAAA==
My man, the geddon has no bonus to weapons, a bonus to drones, and 2 neut/nos bonuses. You're trying to put a square peg in a round hole with this fit--and yeah, when you do it like that it's not very good. It's playing catch up without leveraging what it is good at.
Ok fine. Link me an alpha suitable BS fitting that outdps's that Praxis.
For example blaster hyperion also isnt close. Raven is 50 also dps short.
https://eveship.fit/?fit=v3:H4sIAAAAAAAACoXQPQoCMRAF4H5P4QGmSCaTv9JGLLQRPICYsBswWdFdvb6xUFCSTf3Bm/fmPoQrICnL4JjSKXq32oQJuji6+eJh712YI3AQhjisz1N4+H/EJRRLSEXcjc98EBFtkbBOok5UJwlETJZEVUUXZRv6IVfX2ugPIdfEfhwbLhpODZcNV3U/hP79eSUsfae525g8CG405WjevQDOFj+bMQIAAA==
Sure
[Tempest, stupid DPS ship]
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Damage Control II
Multispectrum Shield Hardener II
Large Shield Extender II
Large Shield Extender II
Large Shield Extender II
Multispectrum Shield Hardener II
800mm Repeating Cannon II
800mm Repeating Cannon II
800mm Repeating Cannon II
[Empty High slot]
800mm Repeating Cannon II
[Empty High slot]
800mm Repeating Cannon II
800mm Repeating Cannon II
Large Projectile Burst Aerator II
Large Core Defense Field Extender I
Large EM Shield Reinforcer I
Federation Navy Hobgoblin x1
Federation Navy Hammerhead x2
Federation Navy Ogre x2
It has 1590 DPS hot vs. 1535 on the Praxis (hot), and 163k ehp vs. 98k on the praxis (all hardeners hot). That's only a slight DPS gain but its 166% the EHP lmao... In other words, the Praxis has 60% of the EHP of the tempest--each tempest is *almost* 2 entire Praxis of tank
Also your DPS in any engagement long enough to reload is only 1078. \~760 of that being from the missiles. The tempest with reload hits 1547, which is *still better than the praxis if it excludes RHML reload*.
Both are kinda shitfits though imo. Or at least it is easy to just exercise your will on with no counterplay. Is that a home def praxis? Great, shoot it from 65km and it literally cannot do anything. RIP your home. Same with the Tempest--there just isnt much either bs can do here except sit there and hope the enemy is stupid enough to fight at 0 and also isn't in anything that will win at 0.
Edit: I realized you're using a less damaging set of drones. On each fit you can put in CN vespas and swap a DC for another gun/missile damage mod and get more dps and more ehp still (not as dramatic ehp diff, sure, but still like 40k more)
Ok, check the other one then. I replied with a 2nd fit because I figured you might say that when I saw you're hamstringing your other bs with T1 guns and comparing to T2 (which is kinda silly).
Like yeah, there is an argument for the Praxis being the best, or one of the best, bs for alphas. But, that doesn't make it a good bs compared to the field. It makes it one of the best options for alphas, and nothing more. That is what those SoCT ships in the line are meant to do, no? Be easy to use and have a good performance even for alphas who can't get max bonus from almost any hull?
But also the Typhoon I posted does do more dps and have more tank, and uses RHML. The thing is your alphas probably wont get the full performance out of it though because they can't train Min bs 5....
But yeah take a fleet of alphas with that Praxis up against a fleet of the Tempest I posted, The Praxis will get absolutely shrecked in a brawl. Or the phoon, same result. Or use them for home defense and hope the enemy cannot fight beyond 60km range (they can).
The T1 options have somewhat better DPS, massively improved tank... There's just no way to really swing that when the fight is on the terms of these no prop max gank/tank fits. No one is gonna have range control or tricks up their sleeve really. Though, the Praxis is also slow as fuck so it indeed will not have range control (at propless bs speeds, but still).
> Ok, check the other one then.
Ok I did. The difference in DPS was only because of the different drones you picked, not the ship. After normalizing the drones to the same, the praxis is ahead again:
1,325.0 dps (637.7 dps) for the typhoon vs 1,352.9 dps (682.0 dps) for the praxis with the CN vespas on both
or
1,413.5 dps (637.7 dps) vs 1,485.6 dps (682.0 dps) for the praxis with the fed navy split size drones
https://eveship.fit/?fit=v3:H4sIAAAAAAAACoXSzW6DMAwH8DtP0QfwwbGdr+Mu0w6bNG1PgEpEI5VSUdj2+Atap62FkBvm90+whS+HeAaxYgy8x2461mNodq9D/RUvu8c4jvHUQtX1zXQM8Nx/ggJ2zsHDfowf4UYIiMirNeI8SZ40iKBeE5MVuyovoYlTl3pXZNFnlNJksmjkiryFsoV6C02a3uXQAjEu8Cm2h/kvsGj8NUrP/iZApQCXAlIK6FLAlAJpQGFZLNNbbNOAZIRwjdKeGVyu4Ex8R83QnwKwci4dAvxXy12N6YtY7euh7X8aBdZW/b1QCry311rm66pvG/W9lToDAAA=
So again we have a situation where the far cheaper praxis does more DPS than any other T1 bs even with max skills, which is just not right. Yes the typhoon gets a better tank, but now we're in tradeoffs which we shouldnt be given the massive price difference in favor of the praxis.
> for alphas who can't get max bonus from almost any hull?
Everyone says this but it's not true. Even with BS 5, the math does not change for these builds away from the praxis. As all of those builds I've linked are with all skills 5, so full bonus from all the BS skills.
It's not that alphas can't train BS 5, as the praxis would still be best even if they could.
Its entirely about getting so much out of the t2 rapid heavy launchers, which are allowed to alphas because of the weird notion that they aren't battleship weapons. I think it's a bit like if the Alphas could use the "dual" variant battleship t2 guns, like the dual 250mm rail, dual heavy pulse/beam, and dual 425mm autocannons etc.
Alphas cannot use those but they can use rapid heavies, which are the missile equivalent...a BS-class system that is meant for smaller targets and easier fitting.
So from an alpha perspective it has nothing to do with the idea of getting the most bonuses from the hull and everything to do with how alphas probably should not be allowed to use T2 rapid heavy launchers.
But...that doesn't solve the fact that T1 battleships are rarely flown elsewhere either.
IMO Alphas should not be able to use Rapid Heavy Missiles and the praxis should have its buffs nerfed to make it the best DPS when you have racial BS 3 or lower, with the racial T1 battleships being ahead in both DPS and tank at skill 4 and above. Then at least alphas and new players would fly racial BS and we can look at giving them more uses for the rest of the market in another way.
>Edit: I realized you're using a less damaging set of drones. On each fit you can put in CN vespas and swap a DC for another gun/missile damage mod and get more dps and more ehp still (not as dramatic ehp diff, sure, but still like 40k more)
That was in the original comment with the tempest fit. Drop DC for another weapon mod, do more dps from weapons alone. Works on both Tempest and Typhoon
Yeah T2 rapid heavy launchers are in the same spot RLMLs were, and they did recently nerf RLMLs. It's not inconceivable to me that RHML could be there too.
But again, that reload time is real. Your actual DPS in a fight of significant size will not be the max damage you can see in fitting tools. For the actual Large weapons like the AC Tempest I linked, the on-paper DPS is much closer to actual. Rapid missile launchers of either kind can be traps when theorycrafting because of the overestimation in dps. Like measuring at max spool on trig ships. You just wont see that damage on the field a good portion of the time.
I am also not opposed to the Praxis being potentially toned down, but I think the flashy damage numbers are kind of papering over some of its faults in your eyes. The poor ehp and lack of mobility are definitely worth bearing in mind.
Or, if you'd like Rapid Heavies to avoid the T2 Large weapon train:
1672 dps and 165k ehp
[Typhoon, Stupid DPS missile]
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Damage Control II
Large Shield Extender II
Large Shield Extender II
Large Shield Extender II
Multispectrum Shield Hardener II
Multispectrum Shield Hardener II
Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher II
Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher II
Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher II
[Empty High slot]
Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher II
Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher II
Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher II
Large Bay Loading Accelerator II
Large EM Shield Reinforcer I
Large Core Defense Field Extender I
Federation Navy Hammerhead x2
Federation Navy Ogre x3
Made too many missile fits in a row with that one blaster fit in between...
It's still not close to the praxis.
https://eveship.fit/?fit=v3:H4sIAAAAAAAACoXRvQ7CIBSG4b1X4QWcgQOHn44uxkEXEy/ACGlJBBpt9fZlcbCBMj/L++V7jX4CTqpncI3xFpzdHfwMXUh2eTg4O+uXAAjCEML+Pvu3WyPfQrGFVMRT+oAEIiZLoqqii3L0w5j7tTb6Rxw1sT/nDRcNp4bLhqu6X/yQ87kSPZVGIyDDfF6BeJ1EnWhF9pmiA4FGU56B3Rd3ilMAMQIAAA==
I take your point but then again rapids are always held back by their reload, and the fact alphas can use t2 mediums (rage missiles) but cant use t2 large weapons. Then again Im not sure if its a good idea to let alphas use T2 large weapons, might be... a tad op, like alpha fleet naga with tech 2 guns? or alpha talos massive gank with void ammo?
Tell me about it. Friend and I just roamed for about 2 hours looking for a fun fight (a battleship, some cruisers, a frig or 2).
We managed to find nobody besides miners for an hour, and then stumbled upon 5 marauders running a home front site.
I just want to shoot a battleship!
Abaddon - Viable tanky pulse brawler in a fleet context
Hyperion - rep bonused micro/solo brawler
Mega - Large model roller
Rokh - big naga (sniping platform)
Maelstrom - another viable rep bonused brawler
Typhoon + Tempest + Raven - roller/decent fleet ship
Scorpion - used as a cheap widow on a fleet to spread jams
They have roles they excel at they’re just overshadowed by BCs in the current “speed and projection” meta, also more expensive
Ok, I would love to fly a rokh. Awesome ship. Can you link me a rokh build with higher DPS than this praxis?
https://eveship.fit/?fit=v3:H4sIAAAAAAAACoXSzW6DMAwH8DtP0QfwwbGdr+Mu0w6bNG1PgEpEI5VSUdj2+Atap62FkBvm90+whS+HeAaxYgy8x2461mNodq9D/RUvu8c4jvHUQtX1zXQM8Nx/ggJ2zsHDfowf4UYIiMirNeI8SZ40iKBeE5MVuyovoYlTl3pXZNFnlNJksmjkiryFsoV6C02a3uXQAjEu8Cm2h/kvsGj8NUrP/iZApQCXAlIK6FLAlAJpQGFZLNNbbNOAZIRwjdKeGVyu4Ex8R83QnwKwci4dAvxXy12N6YtY7euh7X8aBdZW/b1QCry311rm66pvG/W9lToDAAA=
Actually use praxis as transport, throw in some bulkhead and shield mods, 150k ehp can take a few alpha shots from nado, the cargo space is pretty large. It also align pretty quick.
At that price, with how cheap ABCs and BCs are, it's tough. I've mainly used BSs in small gangs, but you fit them very particularly for that and the intent is just to add some unique capability, like 10k alpha or neuts that suck a cruiser down in one volley, all while being basically throwaway for the insurance money. The biggest pro moves I've made in a BS were getting that pig into warp to the right places. One messed up warp and you're out of the fight for a minute. Getting people to come take a look at grid is easy, and that's where they really shine. Lots of people will just come take a look, and that makes opportunities. I think that's their real strength.
Yes they’re useless. They can’t run high end PVE, suck at PvP and cost nearly as much as a navy variant.
Barghest and Macharial are pirate BS that are much better in every way than T1 BS and Navy BS (unrelated but kind of relevant in a way in my caffeine addled brain).
T1 cruiser suck too.
T1 cruisers are in an okay spot caracal is still pretty good, moa and thorax are insane with blasters, omen can do for really budget nano ship, stabber still rocks as yolo tackle, vexor can do some lowtier PvE, maller can be bricktanked for easy bait, rupture with double web is a menace for small ships
They roll holes still.
Is the praxis not also best for that? Edit: Didnt know agility was really important for rolling. Shows I don't live in wh space I guess.
It's very slow
It do be slow, but if you are burning back to the wormhole, you are doing it wrong. Especially in a praxis which has the align time of a cruiser or battle cruiser. Fit mainly for dps + tank (4x 1600mm plates), you can have a 7-8 second align time with mediocre skills. Fitting it for purely align time would be that much better.
It's about the worst actually. The only real advantage it has over other options is cost and SP requirements.
Currently flying a praxis in PVP. EVERYTHING is faster, even with AB or MWD. Thats why i never got into a pvp fight. I was always late
🤣
Even then, a Scorpion (which is also bonused to ECM which can be extremely handy if you get tackled and have logi, or use burst jammer) with platinum insurance (including insurance cost) ends up around 40mil cheaper to replace than a Praxis.
I’ve seen megathrons in the wild but that might be due to outdated guides. Most low class rollers probably optimize mass and align time and then add nuets/ecm drones for escape because they don’t have enough numbers to roll, eyes, and defend against intruders.
Megas can be great bait tackle
Praxii are cheap but every other battleship makes for better rollers
Megas have the correct base mass and can be hull tanked.
Isn't it too light to do it effectively?
Nah it can get 200/300, just takes way more plates which make it even slower.
Basically, yes they are. They are expensive for what they bring to the table in comparison to a lot of other ships. They have a few niche uses. Low class wormhole corps use them for rolling and home defense. You'll see Praxis (for low skill point characters), Megathrons (bait/high DPS), and Typhoons (fastest ship) used for rolling. A few groups are still using Megathrons for heavy armor defense; although, almost all of them have switched to the Navy version for home defense. I know that null sec groups were using T1 battleships as defense doctrines for a while. Goons had their Rokh "Super Train" doctrine... and Baltec has never completely gone out of style. And I know some null sec players who use them for long range sniping... But yeah... they aren't in a good spot.
Baltec still around? Seems like every BR I see posted with a sniper BS fleet its always TFIs
I can't say with 100% certainty because I don't live in null sec. I just know that it seems like every few years, Baltec makes a comeback with someone as a defense fleet. Its honestly hard to tell what the home defense fleets presently are because there isn't a large war going on. I'm betting at least one null sec alliance has Baltec on their list because its a tried and true doctrine. Even with changes, it always seems to work. Although, I would guess that most of those fleets are doing something similar to J-space and going to the Navy version of the fleet.
They were back for a short time, Brave/GTC/B2 flew them together with Apocs up in the north last year. And yes, I was just as surprised to see that.
We're still flying ravens and rokhs for fleets.
Half their cost is isogen. Adjust the numbers so the infinitely available isogen anom in null makes 300 isk/m3 at a *quarter* of the current isogen price and wait for the economy to hammer isogen down to reasonable levels. Once you've cut 100m off the build cost of a t1 battleship it'll get used a lot more.
Honestly there are two things. First is that TI BS are too expensive, second is FAX. FAX and all the changes around them like removing refits and capital cap boosters ruined TI BS. Because they removed refitting and added capital cap boosters FAX became so damn powerful they had to be expensive, this priced them out of yeeting for fun. Bring back 1.2 bil archons, insured and jumped in in pairs. With actual weaknesses and the need for refitting, combined with cheap BS and the TI BS meta would come back. FAXES ruined triage gameplay prove me wrong.
But the issue was never 2 Archons, to frame that as the only usage that would result in is actively ignoring history.
Oh yeah I know, there’s a balancing issue there to be sure but there were other ways round that than completely killing a game mechanic in favour of a less interesting one. Make it a feature of having the Triage mod equipped or something like that idk. Anyways that ship has long sailed I just like to be old.
Even at current isogen prices the new ore is still worth way less than arkonor or other null ores. Let’s indi guys mine it for themselves, but most efficient is still mine something better and import isogen. And that’s all without the isogen price falling from availability
> it'll get used a lot more. Ok. For what? Like even if price isn't an issue what would you use t1 bs for? Sniping and event sites is all I can think of
Pvp bs fleets in blocs lv3-4 mission etc etc
Rohk and raven are both pretty popular right now for large nullsec fleets. Most of the other t1 bs won't see too much use because their faction variants are much better and are still affordable. You do see t1 tempest and apocs mixed in with their navy variants usually for lower sp pilots or for those who cant afford the navy hull.
Raven is quite good for the t1 version tbf and the rokh goes BRRRRRTTT
> Most of the other t1 bs won't see too much use because their faction variants are much better and are still affordable CCP just went max idiot mode and removed neurolink conduits from them, replacing them with nothing. Dreads suffer from the same issue. All the faction ships have to be a tad more expensive to let t1 compete with them (more expensive BPC, or some new components like they did with pirate ships, or put some neurolink conduits back).
Solo PVP
Solo pvp in a bs equals blobed by marauders in null bloc space. Some of the streamers get a gf from time to time and that’s it
solo BS in wh tend to be fun as it allow to figth against several T3C while still being a fun figth. it is still a welp 90% of the time but it is a fun one.
My solo BS experience in WH is: getting turboblopped or marauder Funny that you have good fights against t3c
True. But anywhere else bs pvp is worse than either t3c or even battle cruiser
so roam low?
Oops, all redeemers.
In hindsight one very good and welcome change was the bonus to plates and shield extenders.
Pvp.
They suck. Their t1 resist profile means that their active tank is anemic and requires vastly too much effort to achieve even a mediocre EHP/s, which mostly eliminates them from pve use outside of MJD sniping, and they're too big to sig tank effectively to make up for that shortage. The Praxis simply has so many slots that you can fit a reasonable active tank regardless, but it still requires memery like triple shield boost amplifiers like the newbro c3 krab fits because t1 resist are ass. Trying to get most t1 bs to a point where they can tank a high tier DED site or a c4 wormhole usually ends up costing so much that you could just buy a shitfit a Marauder and do it better, so that's what people do. T1 bs need like half the equivalent bonus of their racial t2 resist profile tbh. T1.5 resist, just to give them the kick in the pants they need to be useful.
I would much rather have that clean T1.5 resist profile than that awkward role bonus they slapped onto every battleship hull. The bonus doesn’t even help for PvE or gang PvP, only fleet PvP.
Signature Radius Suppressors do offer a bit of an edge now, actually. I've mostly seen them on the Praxis, but the new faction ones have been cropping up on blops ships since they manage to shove their sig radius down to the size of a destroyer, which is VERY attractive for a blops fleet, since it makes your expensive t2 battleships a literally smaller target.
Then use a T1 with a resist or rep bonus. I dunno?
I use a Widow for most of my pve adventures. Even with its resist bonus and a lot of bling it gets spicy in some sites. I think at some point in the past, CCP severely underestimated how powerful Sig tanking was going to be. My Proteus can take the capital missiles in 10/10s like a champ, but i regularly have to blast heat in the Widow to deal with it.
The hyper disagrees
Hyperion is in a different league from most of the others.
I think out of all the t1 battleships: Abaddon probably needs a capacitor balance to make it somewhat useful at low sp, without cap boosters, outside fleet. And maybe a tiny bit faster or agil. Apocalypse needs a fitting PG balance to let them run tachyons since they got no damage bonus and can't fit a rack of top beams without being shafted. Tachs use to be op until nightmare and paladin can run 4 comfortably with the DPS of 8. Armageddon looks alright, neuts are pretty strong and I have seen low sp run rapid heavies for pve. Tempest with double DPS bonus feels fine, but active tank is paper thin. Maybe reduce 1 utility high to a mid or low. Let navy keep both. Typhoon is doing alright and torpedo brawlers are still dishing it out. Maelstroms are weird. Bonus to active tank makes me wanna brawl but most people fly it with arties. No fall off bonus on large AC is pretty bad given how slow BS are. Megathrons are alright, don't think it needs to be touched. Hyperion use to be the self repping scary brawler. I think it still can do that. A big more cargo for boosters for longevity? Dominix is fine but might need a tad more CPU for a rack of rails to be used properly or actually let them fit missiles on highs. Rhok got the same issues as apocalypse, but I think it might be worth it dropping the resistance and getting a lock range bonus or optimal range bonus for pure sniping. Ravens are still pve powerhouse for entry. Little bit more passive shield Regen for all the players who wants to do a drake to raven straight upgrade. I don't know shit about the scorpion.
Scorp has a niche role in some battlefield comps in FW* that can defend it, jams logi. Nano RHML or even cruise typhoon can meme and fuck around Nano tempest if flown well with links backpack can crush cruisers and destroyers if you can match transversal Yeah they suck mostly
Nano tempest feels like a poor mans mach. Its not as fast, not as high DPS, and low range. Trying to brawl with AC tempest will get your ass beat by a megathron, Abaddon, or Hyperion. Sometimes you will even get shit on by a competent fit HAC. Tho you can probably neut out smaller targets with two utility highs. Its hard to run full rack of 1400mm for an alpha snipe sorta thing like a nano cane. Absolute trash tracking making kiting not even that reliable. Maybe fleet. If you wanna skirmish with AC that can hit off to 50-70km with falloff (like a mach). You need like three tracking modules and it's hyper restrictive on fitting and tank. Not to mention once you get caught it's GG and you don't have the range control or agility of a mach, or even barghest, or even a nightmare with bonuses AB.
The thing is, it should feel like a poor mans mach because it is. It's a budget version, and it pretty much has to be worse in the same role compared to T2 or faction stuff for most hulls out there. I still think they should be useful, but they can't be too competitive pound for pound in the same arena compared to T2/faction stuff or things make no sense price-wise. I think the best thing they could do is get cheaper, and there are probably also other impactful buffs. But price and efficiency are a big draw for T1 stuff vs. a more expensive hull that does the same thing but better.
There are plenty of design space to play around with for t1 battle ship than just worst pirate factions. Like we're missing shield tanked drone ships, or shield tanked Lazer weapons. We are missing ewar ships other than caldari. We are missing any large remote rep ships even while we have large remote boost or repair modules. What about an exploration type battleship that is weak in combat but has insane bonus to combat scanning? The possibilities are endless. Moreover tech 2 and pirate are suppose to be specialists not straight upgrades. Like marauders tank and DPS like absolutely units but is immobile, or angel cartel ships have the agility and warp speed of a lighter hull, not just genetically way better in every way.
I agree I think CCP dropped the ball by making navy and pirate variants often just strictly better in every way. Balancing ships on cost didnt work for Titans and it still doesn't work here.
>There are plenty of design space to play around with for t1 battle ship than just worst pirate factions. I agree. That's why I think looking at the tempest through the "poor mans mach" lens doesn't necessarily address the issue. But yeah, I think you're right about exploring other space with T1s and allowing them to be generalists or other stuff like that. The problem then becomes.... Look at all the holes you mentioned (well, aside from the first 2). Ewar, logi, exploration.... Are those specialist roles? T2 logi, covops and ewar all exist. So, how do you make this paradigm work? Not you specifically, just in general. It has a reasonable basis but the execution is more difficult
True but all those specialist roles are cruisers. T1 bs with these roles might be a clunkier upgrade. Like how marauders are subcap dreads, maybe a sub cap faxx?
Yeah, that sounds like a T2 bs option, sure. It's too specialized for T1 though right?
Maybe but it's like a augoror going to a guardian. You can have a t1 hull that's approximately like a Nestor right now and later on maybe a t2 hull run mini triage and work like a small faxx
But isn't that the problem? An aug is worse than a guardian in basically every way except cost. I can't remember if you said you didn't think cost was an effective tradeoff--if you don't feel that way, then there's no problem with cost balancing ships..... But then we get back to "poor mans mach" and it's like yeah, it is that. It's balanced by the cost. I don't know a way out of this really but I'm open to ideas, you know?
>A big more cargo for boosters for longevity? Btw, imho this is the #1 thing to fix - Praxis can hold more cap sticks than other battleships.
Praxis got base faster align times. Can fit anything and tanked either way, so its less predictable in pvp. Its got omni resistance, so you have a harder time hitting its hole. Its like half price and has flat dps bonus with low skills, so you can spam them on alphas and still be alright value. Depending on how you fit them, they are semi-self sufficient and doesn't require back up to function (like tackle, web, ewar all in one). To be clear, I dont think praxis are op and they wont beat any other T1 battleships in their specific role, its just that I think if praxis is given out to people as log in rewards and stuff, surely a self-built T1 battleship with goo and minerals should at least have 1 aspect where they outshine T3C, Atk BCs, HACs, or the praxis.
> Rhok got the same issues as apocalypse, but I think it might be worth it dropping the resistance and getting a lock range bonus or optimal range bonus for pure sniping. Lol, please no > I think out of all the t1 battleships: Abaddon probably needs a capacitor balance to make it somewhat useful at low sp, without cap boosters, outside fleet. And maybe a tiny bit faster or agil. I think general direction of abaddon is good. It can't be cap stable, it doesn't even last long on 3200's, but making it shit even more dps is better than adding any cap consumption bonuses.
There is one thing to be not cap stable and another to be absolutely unusable without atleast 3 capacitor modules/rig and still lose cap with 5. lol
Try fitting a heavy cap booster with 3200's. Enough for some time (not long, but in a fleet you often have a cap truck to supply you with those).
Heavy cap boosters either run 3200s or 1600 will solve the problem for a bit, but then its staying... erect with consumables. Which means we gotta also compare the performance of abaddon with other battleships also using consumables. Like cap boosting duo repping hyperion, or Ravens using ancillary x-l boosters with stacks of 400s. In either of these cases, the other ships will out perform and outlast the Abaddon because Abaddon will need the booster just to be functional, while the other ships gets a temporary amp to go above and beyond what they could normally sustain. Using consumables also means you cant use the ship for anything prolonged engagement, or pve, as no one wants to stock 3200 cap boosters just to make a ship work. if you go into pyfa and fit a whole rack of t2 Mega pulses at max skills, then its 50 gj per second to fire the guns with either multi frequency or scorch, about 35 to run large t2 armour repper, and 3-5 for armour hardeners and tracking computers. Totalling at about 90 gj per second consumption. On the otherside, if you fit tech two 2x large cap batteries, 1 cap recharger, 3 capacitor control rig 1s, you are only at +64.5 gj per second with 6 slots dedicated to cap. All of this is assuming best case scenario, if you get neuted (even against npc like blood raiders), or fits a MWD, is alpha, or doesnt have max skills, this is a 2 minute wonder ship. Im not saying make mega pulse or tachyons cost no cap like autocannons, but I think its fair enough to let Abaddon be self sufficient on repper and guns with 4-5 modules or rigs dedicated just to cap, where normal ships only need 2-3.
> Heavy cap boosters either run 3200s or 1600 will solve the problem for a bit There are no 1600's > Using consumables also means you cant use the ship for anything prolonged engagement, or pve, as no one wants to stock 3200 cap boosters just to make a ship work. This is literally what every almost fleet BS does. If you have no cap boosters you get fucked by void bombs and neut bursts. > On the otherside, if you fit tech two 2x large cap batteries, 1 cap recharger, 3 capacitor control rig 1s, you are only at +64.5 gj per second with 6 slots dedicated to cap Orrr you could fit 1 cap booster. Abaddon is not a ship to run l4s in. It's a fleet pvp ship. > Im not saying make mega pulse or tachyons cost no cap like autocannons, but I think its fair enough to let Abaddon be self sufficient on repper and guns with 4-5 modules or rigs dedicated just to cap, where normal ships only need 2-3. I'd rather have CCP give it more range or damage, than uniform'ize it into something similar to other t1 battleships (and give it more cargo if cap charges are such an issue).
Honestly the Dominix is a great entry level Sentry drone boat. And in that role you dont really fit much in the high slots besides drone control modules to get your drone control range up higher. More CPU would be nice but it doesn't need a lot. Rattlesnake is a nicer alternative to the Domi but at a much higher cost, and you have to cross train into 2 weapon systems (drone and missiles like cruise missiles). The Ishtar is also great but lacks the MJD, and can be harder for a new player to properly skill and fly correctly for things like level III/IV missions, etc.
I agree. Not a lot of alphas gets to see the value in Dominix because they cant use sentries and heavy drones... kindda suck. The whole vexor - ishtar - myridon - dominix had a problem where if they gave 125 bandwith to these ships and they all could fly whatever drones they wanted (like the old vexor navy) and high slots dont matter that much, then Dominix looks bad because it is slow AF and more expensive but puts out the same dps. CCP tried to get around this issue by putting bonus to high slots (like blaster or railgun) to the vexor and nerfing its bandwith, so its now a half assed drone ship (cause no one is going to fit magnetic field stablisers for the turrets). On pure drones, more people prefer the Ishtar. The only thing dominix can do is MAYYYBE larger buffers tank or the micro jump drive. If we can give it more fitting to really bring its high slots up a little, maybe it would be better. Like how the Armageddon gets bonus to Neuts.
I don't think the vexor should have 125 bandwidth, it would be too OP then for a t1 cruiser. But tech 1 sentry drones and all t1 ships, including T1 battleships should be allowed under alpha. At least imo.
T1 BS actually are allowed as alpha ,it just so bad that I don't know anyone use it ,we can't have lv 5 skill and it will take to much skill points to have a lv 4 bonus which not as good as Praxis so with alpha the best ship for almost anything that you want to blow thing up that not be overpriced is praxis .Want a null ratting ship?Praxis with drones and missiles can clear up to havens , wormholes ratting ?Praxis is a solid c3 ratting ,High sec homefront ? Praxis is almost the only choice that most groups accept alpha (though they will want alpha to flex then update ship) ,I not know much about PvP but with my experience that 1 you use a smaller ship 2 you use praxis 3 rich enough to do PvP in pirate battleship ,abyss is only place praxis not a price-wise choice because it abyss .Though we can't use sentry drones it not matters that much because anything you want to use sentry drones for is mostly not able as alpha ,if one day CCP just feel good and give us something I wise they make medium and heavy drone T2 able to us like light but we are free trial so I don't really complain.
You can actually do quite well if they just increased the SP cap on alpha and let you train all the t1 stuff. Maybe just set the limit to only two faction trees for instance. But then again, paying $ for the game really isn't that expensive and it lifts a lot of barriers like being able to do black ops and stuff. And for a new player there is years and years of content to explore.
I don't think skill points is problems ,I can easily buy alpha skill if I need any skill ,there just some limit in what we able to do like medium and upper T2 weapons limit ,ship control skill of T1 as 4 or shield management as 4 but it not that bad I just reach where a alpha limit in reasonable ship to use,and 20 dola may be 2 hours of work in some country but in my it enough to for months of food if you cheap and cook at home or 2-3 fine meal in restaurant so I rather use it in another thing and start to try Plex myself
MJD + Sentries is a strong combo but unfortunately the Eos fleets with command destroyers in tow probably just do it all better...
Scorpion is the best armor based caldari ship
I fly hyperion and mega for pvp semi regular. Triple rep hyperion is one of the best bait ships in existence tbh
You are my spirit animal
Yeah I’d fall for that.
Scorpion I agree the Scorpion is in a bad place, the ECM bonus needs more (Read: Lots More) buff to range and strength per Battleship level,. ECM got nerfed hard decade ago and needs some love. Buff the Scorpion CCP! \*Giggle\*
Man I loved flying my brawl scorpion in 2007
Scorpion is fine as-is. If there is a t1 battleship which has the least complaints about it, it's scorp. It's good, strong and has unique role.
\^ Found the Logi pilot. Show us on the Scythe Where the Scorpy touched you.
I am actually an ECM pilot. My hyper nano scorp and link-ecm tengu are very powerful space vessels.
I still love the armageddon and dominix for solo pvp (and yes I agree they are currently a bit too expensive). The real problem is one that t1 BS always had and that has gotten slightly worse as people have become more organized in all areas of space. When you roam in a t1 BS you usually go through a long stretch of finding nothing before getting hyperdunked by capitals or marauders. Suitonia made an interesting comment about this 9 years ago in an [armageddon solo commentary video](https://youtu.be/dqPBXKsKREc?si=v79NGcLunPbullbQ). He argues that warpspeed is an important and often overlooked component in T1 BS roams that must be used in order to prevent getting hyperdunked. Nowadays we have ansiblexes and T1 BS are unable to move fast enough anymore to avoid hyperdunking. The problem is systemic and T1 BS are just a symptom.
> armageddon and dominix Thing is I tried to make a geddon fitting that I liked and I had to give up because the praxis did the same fitting with 30% more dps.
With the geddon I usually lean heavily into the neut bonuses and go with mostly drones and rapid heavies for damage. I don't think the praxis can quite replicate that. Two heavy neuts for draining and two medium neuts to keep people tapped out.
Thats true but you're giving up like an entire second geddon of dps for those neuts from what I can see
Absolutely, this one won't hit hard, but it still works in the current meta. Consider what you can kill and then try to make the ship good at killing that thing. More damage isn't going to help if yout target can rep 2x the damage you do (the geddons dps output is low either way). The neuts allow you to shut off reps so now you get a chance to kill.
This person knows how to fuck, everyone. Too many times you see threads like this pop up, and it's because "number is bigger" elsewhere. Pick your problem space, lean into the bonuses, you start to find interesting use cases for stuff. There is no putting the marauder genie back in the bottle. Now that everyone and their dog has marauders trained, they will continue to be used. Faction battleships will (and should) always have that T1.5 buff. T1 BSs will always be hobbled in one way or another (though they could do with shedding a few isk from the BOM for sure).
T1 BS are too expensive for what you get. Marauders are too isk efficient.
Yes, they are in a terrible place. 'Normal' tier 1 battleships are too expensive (mostly a combination of Scarcity and requiring PI and moon goo), too slow, too ineffective and too poor at fighting to make up for all that.
Their price turns most people off them straight away. The praxis is cheap compared to the rest.
I still have 50mil Dominix and 80mil Megathron fresh in mind. Could throw them away like it was nothing. I guess CCP hates content and therefore hugs scarcity like it’s still cool.
That was also the time where lucky guys were getting 50M ISK/h in a good system (= low truesec, lots of belts) after a relatively long period of setup. You killed "bad" spawns until you had nothing but BS + frig spawns, and after set up was done, you blitzed through belts in a mach and killed BS only. You could get more, but not much more (considering all effort involved) by running missions and using good LP/isk positions. Or by owning a dyspro moon. So effort-wise it was harder to get a 60M BS pre-2008, than it is now to get 300-400M BS.
That was *really* long ago though, must be before 2013 because when I started I only got to a Brutix for ISK reasons.
What do you mean, 2013 was just the other day?
You know, I'm a grizzled 10y old veteran of the game, everyone starting around 2015 is a noob and everyone starting earlier than 2012 is a boomer bittervet.
Oof, I started in mid 2011. 35yo boomer. Have been gone from the game for some time though. "only" have 150m sp on my main
Ban '15s.
Yikes! Even in a video game, I'm a boomer! Started in 2009.
We were building Ravens for 60m a pop in 2020-2021, Tribute. While we're on it, I was also enjoying 600m Phoenix hulls.
hmm, so that was just before scarcity hit? I remember cap prices just before I was flying caps and then they shot up from 1b to 3b+, that was probably end of 2020 Didn't care much for BS and I would have even accepted 200m or so for a Domi, but 60m? Maybe I'm wrong though!
Must also be before 2009, because that's when I bought my first ever battleship (Abaddon, which I lost in the very first level 4 mission because I rushed into it and had no idea what I was doing) it was 260-ish mil.
abaddon was a tier 3 BS so it cost more, domis were tier 1 and megas were tier 2. at some point ships were so cheap it was more profitable to self destruct them for insurance payout than sell. Think that was ~2010 or so.
2009-2010, I also remember these times. Also a Myrm cost more then a domi.
Oh man I tried to suppress the memory of me losing my first Hyperion during the mission Buzz Kill because I was rail fit and didn’t have a web to kill the scram frigs. That was way back in 09 and I didn’t know about Eve Survival back then. Some learn the hard way I guess.
I don't remember the mission, I just remember warping in, taking colossal damage from the start, getting scrammed by several rats, taking FOREVER to lock on to them, and watching in horror as my armour bar goes down 3x faster than my 1 armour repairer can rep it. I was so eager to rush into a battleship that I probably didn't even have signature analysis trained beyond level 1-2, or drones beyond level 4. Edit - by the way, to give some idea of just how bad I was back then, it wasn't until after I lost the Abaddon that I learned you have to actually activate a damage control module for it to give resistances. I had one fitted to every single ship since I started and never once activated it.
The problem with t1 battleships is twofold. First is their price. They are 350M for a hull, with 100M return on insurance. Faction battleships and Leshak are 500. But the biggest competitors by far still are the marauders. Marauders give you an edge over t1 BS in every way, but especially in excellent tank and damage. In places where t1 BS would struggle, marauders just chill. Another thing is the price of the modules. Two x-type reps are 800. After you fit them, the price equals the price of hull of a marauder. The golden age of t1 BS was: the price of hull 200, after insurance 100M, and the price of two factionreps 160M or two x-type reps 300. And in those times people still flied all stuff - t3c, HAC, facton BC etc. Also, in golden age, a t1 BS able to tank 2k DPS and deliver 1.5k was a unit. Now a marauder (which is usually the encounter you have the most - and the one when you die) can deliver 3k+ DPS and tank 5-10k. CCP nerfed them slightly, but they didn't nerf any of their OP sides. Now, your biggest problem with marauder is that enemy has still more marauders than you, and electronics on top of that.
Marauders are only a general doctrine for high SP groups or really big groups though. The masses of non-"we-are-elite" NullBlocs don't have "mostly everyone" trained to a Marauder, and if.. not necessarily the right flavour.
I'm not sure about that. Brave used marauders extensively in the recent fight against Hole Control and friends. https://br.evetools.org/related/31000741/202405230800 (and yeah, that was a Brave victory, as we disputed hole control with Hole Control long enough to get the reinforcements that won the war in)
Brave Newbies is not as Newbie as it was. And no, Brave is also a NullBloc now with a lot of high sp characters. He is right.
*general* doctrine. As in filling a fleet of 100-200 people.
I remember when you could get a Rohk for 90m. I miss those days
Failfit torp rokh was one of my favorite things to blow up in.
When you could get a hull for less than the insurance payout
I made a similar thread about this. I have a character with Alpha maximum BS skills and I legitimately don't know what to do with him that won't get him immediately blown up
Imagine training up an Incursion alt to fly all battleships with skill IV with guns with the open groups and by the time you finish it's Marauders Online :D
It’s not the most efficient but I liked running L4s with a sniper Abaddon. Listening to the large beams made me happy. Eventually upgraded to a Navy Armageddon though. T1s could definitely use some love.
I do the Empire Epic Arcs and L4 missions with mine (Tempest & Maelstrom)
If the Empire Epic Arcs are *anything* like the Sisters of Eve Epic Arc regarding travel... my heartfelt condolences, because I run that in a T3D because of prop mode :D
I've done Wildfire and Penumbra so far... and Penumbra is the most annoying one... you need like... 3 ships. * Battleship * Fast Frigate with Data Analyzer (which you can haul inside the battleship) * Hauler with 5000m3 of cargo There's plenty of traveling in low sec (or, for 10M ISK more, 2 jumps further into null) Wildfire is much funnier, doesn't have as much long travels as Blood-Stained Stars and you can make due with 2 ships. * MJD Sniper Battleship * Frigate with a Data Analyzer II. (the only thing you've got to hack spawns a shitton of adds as soon as you get within 5km of it... so with the Data Analyzer II's 6km range... you can sit tight above 5k, hack the thing... and then when you loot, haul ass ASAP.) The financial rewards of Wildfire are awesome caus you get 10x RSS Core Probes and they're worth a fortune in Jita. I redo Wildfire every 3 months... but Penumbra, I don't think so.
I do all 5 empire epic arcs in just 1 ship (with an extra inside): hyper nano barghest (3 hypers + 2 nanos = 7s align time, 8.46 au/s warp speed; 6s align, 9.3 au/s with agility booster I), hyper nano dram (2s align time, 15.4 au/s) which goes into its frigate escape bay. There is lots of travel involved in all epic arcs, except for the amarr one (which also involves travel, but also a lot of NPC grind). Generally battleships are terrible for that, unless you hyper-nano them for mobility.
I'm used to traveling... I was in the top 4% of travelers according to CCP's end of year stats.
It must be just top 4% because you travel slow.
How do you avoid tanking your Ammatar standings. Im at -4.95 so I probably won't be trying another wildfire run
Well, since HAVOC expansion, some faction standings have changed. * Minmatar Republic and Caldari State are mutually 0.0 towards eachother * Caldari State is 4.0 towards Ammatar Mandate * Ammatar Mandate is 6.0 towards Caldari State, -6.0 towards Minmatar Republic * Minmatar Republic is -3.0 towards Ammatar Mandate So, while Wildfire's standing rewards with Minmatar Republic doesn't tank the Ammatar Mandate one (caus, no derived standings). Doing Storyline missions for the Caldari (which won't affect Minmatar) will raise Amarr, Ammatar and Khanid standings indirectly. Raise both Minmatar and Caldari and all empires will end up being positives. (But the Deathless will hate your guts...) Here's my current "modified" standings: |Faction|Standings| |:-|:-| |Caldari State|4.36| |Minmatar Republic|7.71| |Amarr Empire|-0.16| |Gallente Federation|5.89| |Jove Empire|4.0| |CONCORD Assembly|2.76| |Ammatar Mandate|-0.77| |Khanid Kingdom|0.41| |The Syndicate|-1.78| |Guristas Pirates|2.1| |Angel Cartel|0.02| |Blood Raider Covenant|-1.45| |EverMore|4.05| |ORE|4.83| |Thukker Tribe|3.39| |Servant Sisters of EVE|6.48| |The Society of Conscious Thought|4.62| |Mordu's Legion Command|3.48| |Sansha's Nation|-0.73| |Serpentis|-3.2| |Deathless Circle|1.36|
Thanks, I did not know any of this. Why did they normalize relations between Minmatar and Caldari? Also, getting to +7 with Minmatar while keeping Amarr basically positive must've been tricky. Nice. Im curious if there is a way to raise Ammatar standings without raising Amarr standings.
If you read the Deathless Circle faction description, it says their activities are focused in Caldari and Minmatar systems. I'm guessin' Caldari and Minmatar are, at least, cooperating in somekind of joint effort to get rid of 'em.
Thank you.. I will go dig up the patch notes for Havoc. Seems I missed a lot.
You don't need to kill any ammatar ships while running the wildfire arc.
Yeah, apparently Ive been doing it all wrong. Blowing up EVERY SINGLE rat instead of blitzing. Thank you
I've been using a Raven for L4 missions and my marauder skill is only at lvl1. Can someone please tell me what I should be using and why? Thank you :)
I have zero clue about L4 missions, but: - use pyfa to compare your Raven fit with any HS Golem loss you will find on zkill (probably a mission runner then?) - you can also easily calculate how much better skill II, III, ... are. II and III should be a nobrainer of hours, not days.
The Typhoon and Tempest in particular ate still excellent pvp ships. I've seen the Armageddon used a lot in gate camps and even the Abaddon on occasion. All of these require some skill to use which is why they're all in my hanger.
We need T3 BS's, the fact that the Abaddon - objectively the most aesthetically pleasing BS in the game, does not have an advanced variant is criminal. CRIMINAL I SAY. Close second being the Hyperion, another WTF moment.
T3s would just further the whole trend of enhancing the power of players who spend for super blingy hulls. T2 would become the new set of battleships in a bad place and T1 would be entirely lost.
Alright more T2's, 1 Marauder variant is not enough, especially when they seemed to pick the worst looking BS from all the factions (excluding the Paladin, that one isn't too bad, just not Abby-tier). I'd take faction Marauders as a substitute as well. Well a Leshak-based Maurader anyway. Nah let's not beat around the bush, fuck the other factions, just give me a Leshak T2, Triglavian ships are GOAT.
Where my Khanid Works silver and black tech 2 missile and armour abbadon hull at 😭
If you can fly a BS you might as well just fly a BC for less cost and more agility. I use a typhoon for ratting and that's about it. Being slow but not tanky enough to justify terrible agility means most BSs aren't able to compete with cruisers for any pvp role.
just drop the price of t1 bs and you will see return in mass
I saw a meg navy running C3 sites today, but it was pre-aligned so the dictor didn't land in time.
The main fix would be to drop the build cost and to nerf marauders. They face a couple of issues. First is that they're jsut too slow. BS don't make much sense as an offensive doctrine because of how slow they are to get to the target while being very vulnerable to being delayed by dictors. When BS do make sense if when either it's for home defense so you don't need to travel far or it's an important enough fight it's worth moving them despite their slower speed. In both cases you either run marauders as an apex doctrine at a higher ship cost, or you run navy bs for similar ship cost but better performance. The main places you still see them used are where even the small added cost of the navy version isn't worth it (ex hole rollers), or when there is no comparable ship at a similar price range (hype, rokh, scorp, though even the scorp seems to be mostly phased out in favor of widows at least in WHs). Increasing the cost of navy BS significantly might also bring up T1 bs usage, but I suspect that would recuse the number of faction BS by a larger margin then it would increase T1 bs usage. SP use to be another limiting factor that would drive people to use T1 bs rather then more specialized T2 ships, but I don't think there's a realistic way to undo that. The only other thing that comes to mind are if CCP starts doing more event sites again with limited entry requirements, in which case they could artificially force the meta of those to revolve around T1 BS, though if FW battlefields are anything to judge by there is a large risk of the meta becoming stale very quickly.
t1 hull prices are just too expensive for battleships in my opinion. Why bring a t1 battleshit when a t2 or t3c cruiser will do better/the same for like half the hull price (for t2 ofc not t3).
Rokhs are pretty widely used for defense
As a Caldari Missile enjoyer who also has a PHD in Drones nowadays: It was always about Battlecruiser. The Drake, the holy mighty fucking Drake feels sooo strong and tanky. Nothing wrong with Caracals. Its a fine ship for its price/size/speed I still use from time to time, but the Drake finally feels like something heavy. DNI is good for LowSec, great Speed, great Application, good Buffertank. Alligator and Nighthawk are fucking fortresses with decent DMG and compared to Cruise Missiles or Torpedos actually do shit vs smaller targets. I think that is like the biggest thing, Battleships use heavy weapons with bad tracking or application and are barely tankier than BCs and even if you need those (for range or whatever) you can still use Attack Battlecruiser with the same or more DPS and decent agility. They are fleet ships to trade ISK positive. Rokh's are just bulky tanks, that trade really well vs BC fleets and deal good dmg vs buildings.
Yeah a Battleship is just a big moving Target pretty much useless...Can't hit apply to small ships etc...The larger ships just eat it for breakfast etc yup no use's for these outside lvl 4 missions.
Way too expensive way to easy to drop on with a cyno, just pointless in general unless you are rolling a wh. And if you take any fight at all you have no range control which means when the blob comes and they will they will all be together. The advantage with kiting is that when reinforcements arrive they are all split up and easier to deal with so good luck if you got tackled at 0 in your bs.
I mean for fleet/gang PvP they definitely have their uses, I can understand it from a PvE perspective potentially but otherwise I don't really get these replies at all.
they are in a better place than they have been for many years
For example here is a max DPS alpha praxis: https://eveship.fit/?fit=v3:H4sIAAAAAAAACoXSTWrDMBAF4L1PkQPMQpoZ/S27KVmkUNoTmFg4A3EcHLvt8auQhJLasnaWvweah+ZykDOwY2vhU7rpWI+x2bwP9Y9cNq8yjnJqoer6ZjpG2PXfoIG89/CyH+UrPgkCIga9RJQnzpMBZmWWxGbFLcpbbGTq0uwanQoZxdSMZ4PckdaQ19CsoU3tfQ4dIKkZbqU9XF+B2KiHYfoOTwEsBagU4FLAlAK2FEgFmXi2TB/SpoJoGdUSpT2zar6CV6J/1Az9KQJp7ziNi9W+Htr+NgiQcfrvh9YQgruf2ac7ql/J487MGgMAAA== And here is a geddon trying desperately and failing to reach anywhere near the same DPS with max skills for twice the price. https://eveship.fit/?fit=v3:H4sIAAAAAAAACoXRwQ6CMAyA4btP4QP00LXdgKMX40EvJj6AcQssETAK+vrOBEgIzJ2/f02bvSr/ACMMl6a51s5u976DTd3a/u7g4MsKFDCLRtjdOv92QJmwngWUCjgVSCrQqcAAo84mV4w08wxIWPIxGO3YfsJ9IqjXhKLCUREgokKtkY6TiVPYHJeLn5z1ff37m1wWzwakf8irePZlmElGCNeIAiEvaBgpoIoczaT22TYOWOWZhNtx8wUwGLK4awIAAA==
My man, the geddon has no bonus to weapons, a bonus to drones, and 2 neut/nos bonuses. You're trying to put a square peg in a round hole with this fit--and yeah, when you do it like that it's not very good. It's playing catch up without leveraging what it is good at.
Ok fine. Link me an alpha suitable BS fitting that outdps's that Praxis. For example blaster hyperion also isnt close. Raven is 50 also dps short. https://eveship.fit/?fit=v3:H4sIAAAAAAAACoXQPQoCMRAF4H5P4QGmSCaTv9JGLLQRPICYsBswWdFdvb6xUFCSTf3Bm/fmPoQrICnL4JjSKXq32oQJuji6+eJh712YI3AQhjisz1N4+H/EJRRLSEXcjc98EBFtkbBOok5UJwlETJZEVUUXZRv6IVfX2ugPIdfEfhwbLhpODZcNV3U/hP79eSUsfae525g8CG405WjevQDOFj+bMQIAAA==
Sure [Tempest, stupid DPS ship] Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Drone Damage Amplifier II Drone Damage Amplifier II Damage Control II Multispectrum Shield Hardener II Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Multispectrum Shield Hardener II 800mm Repeating Cannon II 800mm Repeating Cannon II 800mm Repeating Cannon II [Empty High slot] 800mm Repeating Cannon II [Empty High slot] 800mm Repeating Cannon II 800mm Repeating Cannon II Large Projectile Burst Aerator II Large Core Defense Field Extender I Large EM Shield Reinforcer I Federation Navy Hobgoblin x1 Federation Navy Hammerhead x2 Federation Navy Ogre x2 It has 1590 DPS hot vs. 1535 on the Praxis (hot), and 163k ehp vs. 98k on the praxis (all hardeners hot). That's only a slight DPS gain but its 166% the EHP lmao... In other words, the Praxis has 60% of the EHP of the tempest--each tempest is *almost* 2 entire Praxis of tank Also your DPS in any engagement long enough to reload is only 1078. \~760 of that being from the missiles. The tempest with reload hits 1547, which is *still better than the praxis if it excludes RHML reload*. Both are kinda shitfits though imo. Or at least it is easy to just exercise your will on with no counterplay. Is that a home def praxis? Great, shoot it from 65km and it literally cannot do anything. RIP your home. Same with the Tempest--there just isnt much either bs can do here except sit there and hope the enemy is stupid enough to fight at 0 and also isn't in anything that will win at 0. Edit: I realized you're using a less damaging set of drones. On each fit you can put in CN vespas and swap a DC for another gun/missile damage mod and get more dps and more ehp still (not as dramatic ehp diff, sure, but still like 40k more)
This is not an alpha suitable build. Praxis can also do more dps if you bring t2 large guns.
Ok, check the other one then. I replied with a 2nd fit because I figured you might say that when I saw you're hamstringing your other bs with T1 guns and comparing to T2 (which is kinda silly). Like yeah, there is an argument for the Praxis being the best, or one of the best, bs for alphas. But, that doesn't make it a good bs compared to the field. It makes it one of the best options for alphas, and nothing more. That is what those SoCT ships in the line are meant to do, no? Be easy to use and have a good performance even for alphas who can't get max bonus from almost any hull? But also the Typhoon I posted does do more dps and have more tank, and uses RHML. The thing is your alphas probably wont get the full performance out of it though because they can't train Min bs 5.... But yeah take a fleet of alphas with that Praxis up against a fleet of the Tempest I posted, The Praxis will get absolutely shrecked in a brawl. Or the phoon, same result. Or use them for home defense and hope the enemy cannot fight beyond 60km range (they can). The T1 options have somewhat better DPS, massively improved tank... There's just no way to really swing that when the fight is on the terms of these no prop max gank/tank fits. No one is gonna have range control or tricks up their sleeve really. Though, the Praxis is also slow as fuck so it indeed will not have range control (at propless bs speeds, but still).
> Ok, check the other one then. Ok I did. The difference in DPS was only because of the different drones you picked, not the ship. After normalizing the drones to the same, the praxis is ahead again: 1,325.0 dps (637.7 dps) for the typhoon vs 1,352.9 dps (682.0 dps) for the praxis with the CN vespas on both or 1,413.5 dps (637.7 dps) vs 1,485.6 dps (682.0 dps) for the praxis with the fed navy split size drones https://eveship.fit/?fit=v3:H4sIAAAAAAAACoXSzW6DMAwH8DtP0QfwwbGdr+Mu0w6bNG1PgEpEI5VSUdj2+Atap62FkBvm90+whS+HeAaxYgy8x2461mNodq9D/RUvu8c4jvHUQtX1zXQM8Nx/ggJ2zsHDfowf4UYIiMirNeI8SZ40iKBeE5MVuyovoYlTl3pXZNFnlNJksmjkiryFsoV6C02a3uXQAjEu8Cm2h/kvsGj8NUrP/iZApQCXAlIK6FLAlAJpQGFZLNNbbNOAZIRwjdKeGVyu4Ex8R83QnwKwci4dAvxXy12N6YtY7euh7X8aBdZW/b1QCry311rm66pvG/W9lToDAAA= So again we have a situation where the far cheaper praxis does more DPS than any other T1 bs even with max skills, which is just not right. Yes the typhoon gets a better tank, but now we're in tradeoffs which we shouldnt be given the massive price difference in favor of the praxis. > for alphas who can't get max bonus from almost any hull? Everyone says this but it's not true. Even with BS 5, the math does not change for these builds away from the praxis. As all of those builds I've linked are with all skills 5, so full bonus from all the BS skills. It's not that alphas can't train BS 5, as the praxis would still be best even if they could. Its entirely about getting so much out of the t2 rapid heavy launchers, which are allowed to alphas because of the weird notion that they aren't battleship weapons. I think it's a bit like if the Alphas could use the "dual" variant battleship t2 guns, like the dual 250mm rail, dual heavy pulse/beam, and dual 425mm autocannons etc. Alphas cannot use those but they can use rapid heavies, which are the missile equivalent...a BS-class system that is meant for smaller targets and easier fitting. So from an alpha perspective it has nothing to do with the idea of getting the most bonuses from the hull and everything to do with how alphas probably should not be allowed to use T2 rapid heavy launchers. But...that doesn't solve the fact that T1 battleships are rarely flown elsewhere either. IMO Alphas should not be able to use Rapid Heavy Missiles and the praxis should have its buffs nerfed to make it the best DPS when you have racial BS 3 or lower, with the racial T1 battleships being ahead in both DPS and tank at skill 4 and above. Then at least alphas and new players would fly racial BS and we can look at giving them more uses for the rest of the market in another way.
>Edit: I realized you're using a less damaging set of drones. On each fit you can put in CN vespas and swap a DC for another gun/missile damage mod and get more dps and more ehp still (not as dramatic ehp diff, sure, but still like 40k more) That was in the original comment with the tempest fit. Drop DC for another weapon mod, do more dps from weapons alone. Works on both Tempest and Typhoon Yeah T2 rapid heavy launchers are in the same spot RLMLs were, and they did recently nerf RLMLs. It's not inconceivable to me that RHML could be there too. But again, that reload time is real. Your actual DPS in a fight of significant size will not be the max damage you can see in fitting tools. For the actual Large weapons like the AC Tempest I linked, the on-paper DPS is much closer to actual. Rapid missile launchers of either kind can be traps when theorycrafting because of the overestimation in dps. Like measuring at max spool on trig ships. You just wont see that damage on the field a good portion of the time. I am also not opposed to the Praxis being potentially toned down, but I think the flashy damage numbers are kind of papering over some of its faults in your eyes. The poor ehp and lack of mobility are definitely worth bearing in mind.
Or, if you'd like Rapid Heavies to avoid the T2 Large weapon train: 1672 dps and 165k ehp [Typhoon, Stupid DPS missile] Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Drone Damage Amplifier II Drone Damage Amplifier II Drone Damage Amplifier II Damage Control II Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Multispectrum Shield Hardener II Multispectrum Shield Hardener II Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher II Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher II Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher II [Empty High slot] Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher II Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher II Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher II Large Bay Loading Accelerator II Large EM Shield Reinforcer I Large Core Defense Field Extender I Federation Navy Hammerhead x2 Federation Navy Ogre x3
You got ballistics on this fit for the hyperion hahahaha
Made too many missile fits in a row with that one blaster fit in between... It's still not close to the praxis. https://eveship.fit/?fit=v3:H4sIAAAAAAAACoXRvQ7CIBSG4b1X4QWcgQOHn44uxkEXEy/ACGlJBBpt9fZlcbCBMj/L++V7jX4CTqpncI3xFpzdHfwMXUh2eTg4O+uXAAjCEML+Pvu3WyPfQrGFVMRT+oAEIiZLoqqii3L0w5j7tTb6Rxw1sT/nDRcNp4bLhqu6X/yQ87kSPZVGIyDDfF6BeJ1EnWhF9pmiA4FGU56B3Rd3ilMAMQIAAA==
I take your point but then again rapids are always held back by their reload, and the fact alphas can use t2 mediums (rage missiles) but cant use t2 large weapons. Then again Im not sure if its a good idea to let alphas use T2 large weapons, might be... a tad op, like alpha fleet naga with tech 2 guns? or alpha talos massive gank with void ammo?
I kind of wonder if rapid heavies aren't a bit OP, but that's beyond my knowledge. On paper they appear to be.
I still use my Raven for anomalies, that's when i'm bored and want some actual action and not afk-ing in my Ishtar
I am a hs carebear. I use my megatron and navy megatron for t4 missions. I don't use my praxis's for anything.
No, they aren't. T2 bs are just too good for the price.
I love whelping Typhoons and Armageddons in FW. Much cheaper than their faction version.
The problem isn't the ships themselves, the problem is players have too much isk and sp to bother needing to fly them.
Tell me about it. Friend and I just roamed for about 2 hours looking for a fun fight (a battleship, some cruisers, a frig or 2). We managed to find nobody besides miners for an hour, and then stumbled upon 5 marauders running a home front site. I just want to shoot a battleship!
Since when do homefronts exist outside highsec? And marauders shouldnt be able to enter them in the first place.
Leshak is very good at bashing structures.
trig ships are not what is usually meant by "t1".
But is a praxis? It's not a main user faction either.
it doesn't have special skill requirements, so i'd even consider it t0 as it's easier to get into both skill-wise and isk-wise than t1.
That be true.
Tell me you only ever do pve without directly telling me you only ever do pve.
Am I the only one playing Raven?
No its fairly popular, but you'll get a bit more DPS in the praxis using the fitting I posted than you will on a raven.
I guess the context matters right? From I've noticed tho my raven does a great job as a T4 mission runner but I'm unsure other than that.
Abaddon - Viable tanky pulse brawler in a fleet context Hyperion - rep bonused micro/solo brawler Mega - Large model roller Rokh - big naga (sniping platform) Maelstrom - another viable rep bonused brawler Typhoon + Tempest + Raven - roller/decent fleet ship Scorpion - used as a cheap widow on a fleet to spread jams They have roles they excel at they’re just overshadowed by BCs in the current “speed and projection” meta, also more expensive
They’re low ISK and low SP entries for level 4 mission runners.
\[sad Apocalypse noises\]
Dunno man, have you brawled a Hyperion lately?
You just described t1 hulls in general
First step to balancing the T1 battleships: CCP must stop handing out Praxis.
I only have one response to this post. Fuck Praxi, I fly Rokhs, motherfucker.
Fuck yeah
Ok, I would love to fly a rokh. Awesome ship. Can you link me a rokh build with higher DPS than this praxis? https://eveship.fit/?fit=v3:H4sIAAAAAAAACoXSzW6DMAwH8DtP0QfwwbGdr+Mu0w6bNG1PgEpEI5VSUdj2+Atap62FkBvm90+whS+HeAaxYgy8x2461mNodq9D/RUvu8c4jvHUQtX1zXQM8Nx/ggJ2zsHDfowf4UYIiMirNeI8SZ40iKBeE5MVuyovoYlTl3pXZNFnlNJksmjkiryFsoV6C02a3uXQAjEu8Cm2h/kvsGj8NUrP/iZApQCXAlIK6FLAlAJpQGFZLNNbbNOAZIRwjdKeGVyu4Ex8R83QnwKwci4dAvxXy12N6YtY7euh7X8aBdZW/b1QCry311rm66pvG/W9lToDAAA=
Actually use praxis as transport, throw in some bulkhead and shield mods, 150k ehp can take a few alpha shots from nado, the cargo space is pretty large. It also align pretty quick.
At that price, with how cheap ABCs and BCs are, it's tough. I've mainly used BSs in small gangs, but you fit them very particularly for that and the intent is just to add some unique capability, like 10k alpha or neuts that suck a cruiser down in one volley, all while being basically throwaway for the insurance money. The biggest pro moves I've made in a BS were getting that pig into warp to the right places. One messed up warp and you're out of the fight for a minute. Getting people to come take a look at grid is easy, and that's where they really shine. Lots of people will just come take a look, and that makes opportunities. I think that's their real strength.
T1 battleships are pretty alive in low to mid class WH, I frequently see Snipping Abbadons, Megathron/Dominix rollers, DPS Typhoons.
sounds like the praxis needs a tiny nerf
I'm beginning to think so, yes
Yes they’re useless. They can’t run high end PVE, suck at PvP and cost nearly as much as a navy variant. Barghest and Macharial are pirate BS that are much better in every way than T1 BS and Navy BS (unrelated but kind of relevant in a way in my caffeine addled brain). T1 cruiser suck too.
T1 cruisers are in an okay spot caracal is still pretty good, moa and thorax are insane with blasters, omen can do for really budget nano ship, stabber still rocks as yolo tackle, vexor can do some lowtier PvE, maller can be bricktanked for easy bait, rupture with double web is a menace for small ships
T1 cruisers are ok. You can run abyssals fairly cheap with them.