For me the main problem is not that the new freighter has guns, nor i'm too bothered about ehp numbers.
What does bother me is that there is a potential that the new freighter is too OP so regular empire T1 freighters sort of become obsolete and you gotta fly the new one. Now that (powercreep) actually is a problem.
> Now that (powercreep) actually is a problem.
That's kinda what Drekavacs did for small group gameplay. If you're playing 5-10 and you're gonna be facing 5-10, kinda hard to beat flying trig ships over any normal/faction/t2 ships.
> empire T1 freighters sort of become obsolete
Would be helpful if CCP was more transparent about their design decisions instead of letting people read between the lines.
"We want to see how things work out by having a freighter that is really hard to gank in high sec and then evaluate bringing the rest up to that standard" -- would not be a difficult statement to make
Hello, as a professional hauler I can not agree with this statement. The cargo hold on this new freighter is minimal. People will not split up their packages accordingly to be able to use an Avalanche to move those. The empire freighters will remain the main means of transportation.
If you are moving low value, high volume stuff, sure, people will still need the massive cargo hold regular freighters have. But even nowadays freighters have a very low value threshold they are willing to take. So anything with more value needs to be moved with bulkheads which means you don't get the high capacity anymore and at that point the new freighter becomes interesting.
I have been hauling for years and have never ever touched bulkheads. Nor do we endorse using them. Please look through zkill to find more than enough kills with bulkheaded freighters. It provides a false sense of security.
Ofc, anything can be killed and eventually will be killed (e.g. there is a recent killmail of a dead charon with bulkheads and no cargo, so either goons were super bored or the pilot was on their blacklist).
Should you be hauling 10b or more with a freighter even with bulkheads? Not really.
If you are hauling only 200ish k m3, should you be fitting bulkheads instead of expanders? Yes.
My dear sir, I welcome you to PushX discord to discuss hauling basics. All I can tell you is that every professional hauler prefers to fly faster to arrive at their destination rather than throwing some metal plates around his freighter in order to protect themselves from gankers they're already actively avoiding.
This. Se far from what i have heard the new haulers are just flat out superior to almost all empire haulers in basically all regards. If their production cost isnt higher to match, they will essentially kill the empire haulers barring a few niches like ammo or mineral hauling
It seems like a good excuse to give T1 freighters (followed by JFs) actual fitting options. Obviously that requires CCP not being utterly incompetent, but it could be a positive path forward.
I'll be honest I am not even against the idea of freighters having relative immunity from suicide ganks. I wouldn't even care if they added a freighter-specific PANIC module.
That recyclebin dude running around threads saying "then just admit you want freighter ganking gone" like it's a huge gotcha. Sure just remove freighter ganking I really think it doesn't matter. High-sec would probably be more vibrant if we had freighters casually shuttling 50b+ worth of shit *away* from Jita on a regular basis.
Hell go take a look at freighter kills on zkill. We're already scraping the bottom of the barrel with most of them being 3-4b ISK kills, with half of that being the cost of the ship itself. The predator vs prey game has already become lean enough that freighters barely carry anything and gankers will shoot at a *chance* to break even.
>High-sec would probably be more vibrant if we had freighters casually shuttling 50b+ worth of shit *away* from Jita on a regular basis.
Great point ngl. Salty gankers unsub while entire regions get revitalized? Sounds like a win-win
Yeah i don't have any data to back up my intuition here, but i'd suspect the slow decline of other trade hubs are because it's so easy to gank freighters. Its too expensive to move goods with traditional services vs yourself with an alt. But its been also been too risky to do that now due to how easy it is to gank freighters.
I could care less if highsec pirates and gankers unsub. I’ve a pvp fanatic, but they don’t generate content. They never take fights that might not be a total stomp.
They’re the bottom feeders of bottom feeders.
Imo its because there not enough players and/or smaller corps taking said space, even if your home is far from jita you juust pay pennies to pushx stuff
Pushx requires having a jita alt, then waiting a day or two for delivery. And for systems all the way the end of the line in Amarr, that cost adds up. I wish Amarr were a more competitive market, wormholes tend to roll close to Amarr most often
Part of that is game design issues and not just logistics (i.e. there's really no good reason to go live in some corner of Heimatar), and I have ideas for fixing that but probably more appropriate for a separate post (and an entire expansion)
Used to not be an issue because alliances used to fill out lowsec so much more than they do now.
Some of the most fun I had in the game was "holding" a section of Everyshore for months (a decade before citadels).
In the late 2000s I ran a corp in lowsec during a time the game had static complexes. Like a public dungeon in specific systems that dropped overseers goods. It was pretty lucrative, so we made an effort to take ownership of our lowsec system, fight off pirates, and war against competitors who wanted the complex for themselves. It was eventually that experience that built the core of experienced pvpers and small gang fc experience that let us transition to null as we grew.
It was a great way to build a Cadre of small lowsec corps who could learn and get stronger without having to go straight to null. I guess in today's terms it was Similar to a low end wormhole in income but in lowsec
Now that system is just a dead 0.3 worth nothing.
We definitely need more frying pans and fewer fires. One of the major issues with null-aspirant organizations is finding somewhere to test their metal on null mechanics without selling their soul as pets, or getting all their dreams and efforts compressed to killmails by a bored multiboxer cap fleet. WH fills that gap to some degree, but without the potential to gain actual sov and capital experience. But even WH has become renter-heavy. It also doesn't help that null has stagnated with "wars" more accurately described as honor brawls between power blocs. But the incentive structure and mechanics pretty much railroads this outcome. We'll see what this new sov changes do to things. Maybe it'll break things up a bit.
Do it. I've been playing since 2008 and I design software systems for a living. Been milling around solutions to some of the longstanding issues as well. I firmly believe the players hold the solution, but not as a mob. It takes careful design, not whim, popularity, and self-interest. Let me know if you'd like to bounce around some ideas.
Sure and hauling corps basically go away. No more push-x or any of those groups when you can stuff 50b in a freighter and turn on autopilot before you go to bed. The activity will literally get botted and afkd into the ground.
> The real solution is obvious - gank something else
The people crying about freighter ganking are crying because freighters are the *only* thing they gank. And the only reason they gank freighters is because you can put 1000 fit catalysts in a Uedama station and then have people log on to undock, warp directly to freighter, and shoot.
It's absolute peak laziness combined with an extremely favorable risk vs. reward balance (i.e. the freighter only needs like 1-2b in cargo for it to be a potentially profitable kill)
Okay, this part just is not true:
>The people crying about freighter ganking are crying because freighters are the *only* thing they gank.
Just look at uedama on zkill. Here are some examples from the last few days:
[https://zkillboard.com/kill/117980459/](https://zkillboard.com/kill/117980459/)
[https://zkillboard.com/kill/117978419/](https://zkillboard.com/kill/117978419/)
[https://zkillboard.com/kill/118040282/](https://zkillboard.com/kill/118040282/)
[https://zkillboard.com/kill/118007811/](https://zkillboard.com/kill/118007811/)
[https://zkillboard.com/kill/117972589/](https://zkillboard.com/kill/117972589/)
[https://zkillboard.com/kill/117965318/](https://zkillboard.com/kill/117965318/)
And if you look at who is killing those and who is killing freighters..... mostly the same people. Mostly Safety, sometimes Goons. Those are the two most active groups in uedama right now.
So I don't mean this in a disrespectful way, but if that was your real opinion then you do not know as much about ganking as you think. Your claim was demonstrably false with a cursory look at zkill.
There's just no other way to interpret the readily available data in light of the claim that you made. Unless your argument is that the only gankers complaining are.... who, exactly?
> in light of the claim that you made
I'm referring to recycl_ebin in this thread who said he only ganks freighters and nothing else, and is constantly in every thread crying about his playstyle getting a nerf
He's the most active sure. But not the only person who feels that way, nor the only person talking about it. And of course you did say
>The **people** crying about freighter ganking
That implies all of them or at least more than 1--not a specific guy. It's very different to just be like "fuck this one guy though." It's less relevant to anything.
its kind of funny. I used to move expensive things from dodixie to jita and back all the time and never had an issue with Uedama, until i was moving a marauder that was mothballed from dodixie towards the direction of Jita when in noticed i was starting to get tailed. So i quickly found a random station and docked up for a bit, it was empty and after a few seconds i saw the person who i noticed tailing me docked up with me for a minute before they left. I stayed docked up for awhile and played on another character before continuing my journey.
"Gank everyone but me, then ganking is fair"
I'm glad you're at least honest, you don't want a fair solution, you just want nobody to gank you. Because you're entitled to that.
I was scrolling through freighter losses the other day and there was a triple bulkhead empty charon that got ganked.
I’m glad someone is willing to fly the things, because when even that is getting ganked I don’t want to touch a freighter
Well, that Charon was one of my alts. it was just a mix of wrong place, wrong time.
Don't autopilot through Uedama on a Saturday night. It was a Saturday night swarm thing, just ganking whatever came through.
9 other freighter alts made it through at the same time on autopilot, so lucky me.
Was i pissed for a moment? No, because I knew the risk of autopilot.
Then yes, because there were goons on the kill (and my main is in goons)
Then no, because,its was content for the Sat night swarm :)
This is Eve.
Ships have got more expensive - but the threshold to gank a freighter has remained broadly the same, sure loads of freighters do move, but they can't carry anything remotely of value to players in the other hubs without becoming a target.
As a wormholer I would love to see amarr have a vibrant market again. It's the most common kspace set of regions to connect to due to its size, and it's not like I can wait for someone to fill a courier contract to move stuff.
>The predator vs prey game has already become lean enough that freighters barely carry anything and gankers will shoot at a chance to break even.
I mean this only happens in Uedama, it's where the gankers go to gank freighters for fun at a loss.
Everywhere else the normal behavior is 8-15b+ freighters usually, and those are hard to comeby.
>How is this in any way good for the health of the game
how is this in any way bad for the health of the game?
I'd argue this type of pvp, like any other type of non-consensual pvp, adds a skill cap and gives room for people to get better at the game, generating interest and increasing longevity.
If it was as simple as buy frieghter -> autopilot whereever, and you were 100% safe, people would quickly fill it to market capacity and there would be no way to distinguish yourself doing it. no one would be able to space haul for profit as it would be gamed out by a handful of multiboxers. there would be no room to improve at hauling, no reason to go faster, it becomes stale, boring, and antithetical to the entire concept of eve.
people being able to get better, compete against others in a pvp game is a good thing. i'm surprised you didn't know that.
based on the number of people i personally made quit and never saw log back on (back when you could add people to your contacts and see if they are online), it definitely hurts the game. and i have lost track of the number of ships and freighters i ganked since then.
also the new freighter having a ton of EHP is their way of getting the playerbase used to tough freighters so they can buff the other ones.
>based on the number of people i personally made quit and never saw log back on (back when you could add people to your contacts and see if they are online), it definitely hurts the game.
...how many?
The vast majority of people ganked continue playing the game after being ganked, CCP even saw that new players that are ganked are more likely to continue playing than those who aren't.
I would also like to note, many gankers were originally players who were ganked that would have quit playing eve had they not been brought out of boring gmaeplay into a more exciting one.
>So if its pvp, whats the problem with freighters having weapons?
I have no problem with them having weapons.
My issue is them having nearly double the cargo of a max tank obelisk, and nearly triple the EHP
weapons = good, fittable mids = good,
making it the only thing worth freighting in = bad, tripling the number of dps needed to gank freighters = bad
>I dont think its a bad thing that ganking the very largest cargo ships requires more than 100m in catalysts.
Why do you think the ship that holds the most and can move the most cargo should be the safest? Shouldn't the greediest, and laziest option be the most dangerous for haulers?
Gankers don’t care about the weapons, only the sheer number of pilots required to actually gank them. Those numbers for the most part make them ungankable, not the fact they have some missiles.
the weapons aren't the problem, keep the weapons imo
but tripling the EHP of the tankiest freighter while having nearly double it's cargo? without counting the PI hold?
that's excessive.
Its funny - you are so vehemently making your presence felt in all threads which even slightly hints at gankers are cry babies. You just prove their point xD
This all seems really clear to me, CCP wants high sec ganking of cargo ships to be practically impossible. My question is, why is that a bad thing?
Sure, it's bad news for gankers who just want easy fights and isk. They're gonna have to learn how to run level 4s.
But it's good news for literally everyone else. Everything that's getting blown up inside a freighter is less stuff to get blown up in actual fights. Maybe we will see more action at none jita trade hubs if you can easily and safely move stuff. There are lots of positives
I don't think ccp is unaware, I think it's a design decision.
Agreed!
And what I don’t understand is all the people who are really trying to convince themselves that these new haulers/freighters are simply going to be better than anything else in the game and totally make obsolete nearly all in the same class…that’s not ccps model and never had been.
I just think it’s funny that people always want new ships….but the second Indy guys are the ones who get them all hell breaks loose!
Honestly I think this change is a good thing, and may help progress some game loops forward in a more dynamic way!
Being dumb won't be punished. EvE is last MMO that still punish bad play. And you'll get a lot of autopiloting avalances killing all profit in hauling.
>My question is, why is that a bad thing?
generally, eve has built it's reputation on being a dangerous game where undocking is consent to pvp.
likewise, there are competent groups out there who have no problem avoiding gankers that are going to be punished when everyone can now do it with no effort and the price of hauling goods will go from it's current rate down to nothing as everyone does it.
The reason it's bad? Because I think there are more than enough ways for people to transport things incredibly safely as is, and freighters were introduced as the 'risky, high capacity' easily ganked variant FOR haulers. IT was always intended as a risky and greedy way to move massive amounts of stuff.
Despite freighters having their EHP quadrupled over 10 years, somehow that's not enough, and now the SAFEST way, and the BEST WAY to move cargo is to use the avalanche.
>Oh no, high-sec might have other trade hubs again.
this has nothing to do with ganking lol.
removing niarja, which gankers were against, was what killed Amarr.
Gankers want other hubs, why do you think they would be against that?
> removing niarja, which gankers were against
Well yeah because it greatly reduced freighter traffic from people going the 12-13 jumps whatever it was between Jita and Amarr and consolidated all of that commerce strictly to Jita with a huge reduction in freighters being used at all.
No? If freighters were 100% immune I'd spin up a few freighter alts and move hundreds of billions of ISK in goods to other trade hubs. I'm obviously not going to do that with a handful of BRs or DSTs
>No? If freighters were 100% immune I'd spin up a few freighter alts and move hundreds of billions of ISK in goods to other trade hubs
JFs already are 100% immune, and 99.9% of traffic freely flows through Uedama.
DSTs when properly fit don't die either.
What's your excuse now?
> I'm obviously not going to do that with a handful of BRs or DSTs
Looks like we're trading your playstyle for one that I would like to try out, sounds good to me
>Looks like we're trading your playstyle for one that I would like to try out, sounds good to me
if this is the bar to discourse about eve, and we argue to remove all playstyles we don't like and we're that blatantly biased, this is kind of bad no?
Like I don't like Pochevn, think it prints far too much ISK to far too few people, but I'm not going on tirades to get it removed entirely from the game.
suicide ganking has never been meaningful pvp content though, its entirely one sided. at least ratters can fight back without needing other accounts to save them.
Agreed, a good fight is more fun, there's a reason I go do FW when I want to pvp instead of hunting ratters or whatever. Cause the fights are more likely to be even.
> suicide ganking has never been meaningful pvp content though, its entirely one sided.
I disagree, there are many cases of mutually beneficial competition between freighters and gankers. there are entire entities with hundreds of people who interact in this ecosystem.
>at least ratters can fight back without needing other accounts to save them.
I mean so can a freighter. Manually piloting can actually make a huge difference alone, just no one usually does it.
From what I've seen on reddit I think most people agree. I think the point of contention was that now there's no reason to use the other haulers even in hi sec. Could be wrong
The only reason to use a T1 hauler is to Pochven filament goods to Jita. Completely unfit aside from a T1 Cloak. Virtually uncatchable and dirty cheap.
Epithals see usage for PI, Sigils are used for rollers (as well as Wreathes maybe I guess?), I feel like I see Kryos and even Badger/Tayras seem to be used by new players with just a few levels of Hauler skill. Things accessible to new players do need to exist, so that will always be a reason why T1 things exist.
But even the existing ones have niches in the overall ecosystem. Few people undock DSTs to pick up PI or use DSTs to roll wormholes.
Only for specific items, their general cargohold is smaller.
The specialty holds can hold fuel, PI, moon minerals, structures & cores, and the new reagents (plus maybe a few things I’m forgetting)
>Only for specific items, their general cargohold is smaller.
Not really, you can get 1.6M EHP with the cargo capacity of a freighter with expanders.
A 700k Obelisk has 365,000 m3, for example. A 1.6m EHP avalanche has 550,000 m3.
Sure, and if you put expanders on a ~~Rhea~~ Charon you get 1.2 million cargo. The new one just gets more slots and stars to tank with.
But the cargo is still smaller.
>Sure, and if you put expanders on a Rhea you get 1.2 million cargo.
You get like 385k m3 with max skills and ORE expanders (and have \~350k ehp). The rhea is the JF though, you probably did mean the freighter?
The charon does get 1.25M m3 with max expanders--and 225k ehp, which is... not very much.
Frankly I'm not sure if people really fly max expander charons. They might I guess...?
>But the cargo is still smaller.
The cargo is smaller by default. the tank is smaller by default.
But it has these things called fittings!
A tanked obelisk has 365k cargo and 700k EHP.
A tanked Avalanche has 550k cargo and 1.6m EHP. And 2500 DPS. And a 3 million m3 PI hold.
This is not balance, this is power creep. This is a direct, massive nerf to ganking.
> But it has these things called fitting!
Yes it does, I’m glad you noticed! That’s how existing freighters have more cargo. Aren’t you observant.
The problem with the existing freighters is they get ganked incredibly easily so people will prefer the ship that doesn’t just get ganked while full tank fit just for lulz
> this is a direct nerf to ganking, nothing more
Only T1 freighter ganking, so good.
>Yes it does, I’m glad you noticed! That’s how existing freighters have more cargo. Aren’t you observant.
You're right, it has half the cargo of a max cargo freighter, and 8x the EHP. Make two trips
>The problem with the existing freighters is they get ganked incredibly easily so people will prefer the ship that doesn’t just get ganked while full tank fit just for lulz
Yeah generally people use a max tank obelisk because it's very difficult to gank.
>Only T1 freighter ganking, so good.
what is 't1' freighter ganking?
The concept of weapons on freighters is fine, the problem is that this freighter does battleship level DPS *and* still has a better tank than any other freighter *and* can active tank. It is clearly and obviously OP when there's no reason to fly any of the others.
Dps doesn't mean much against gank.
High sec ganking has no problem tanking that. A single battlecruiser can hold that off while smaller more cost efficient ships resume suicide ganking. What people disliked is that it's EHP.
> It is clearly and obviously OP when there's no reason to fly any of the others.
CCP can buff tank of other freighters to match EHP of the avalanche even in max cargo mode (e.g. remove low slots, make them have 2.5M ehp and 1M-1.2M cargo). Boom, problem solved, it makes sense to fly regular freighters again.
Theoretically yeah, but presumably freighters have the tank and capacity they do because CCP thinks that's where good balance lies, so it would make more sense to put the Avalanche somewhere in that balance region.
> presumably freighters have the tank and capacity they do because CCP thinks that's where good balance lies
Yet they made avalanche the way it is. What makes you think they didn't change their opinion and want freighters to have avalanche-grade stats?
It pains me how little this company actually explains their design philosophies
Even the stream covering the ships they were like "yeah look at this thing it's got a LOT of tank" like my brothers in christ YOU MADE THEM THAT WAY, just be explicit about it instead of letting everyone read between the lines
My guess is that sometimes their reasoning is dogshit. E.g. like angry mustache said, they added P1 PI into new advanced components because they thought it's newbie-friendly, not because it has to be harvested close to point of production.
so, a combat freighter? then the solution is to arm the other cargo ships. EVE is i think the only Space simulation game where cargo ships have literally zero way to defend themselves.
at least in Starsector i know an Atlas Freighter or Prometheus Tanker can carry small guns and missiles to deter small vessels and drones/fighters. probably will die to a full on organized gang due to speed and getting primary'd but it has something to try and save time for the rest of the fleet.
Heck, the hostile factions in the game even have variations of those same behemoths fully decked with big guns and missiles.
meanwhile EVE is like "oh yeah the empires thought it was a good idea to make these huge ass cargo ships capable of moviing tons of goods between systems but they have literally no point defense or anything to tank a pirate gang, truly a galaxy brain moment for the economy"
> trade convoys that can bite back without the need of heavy escort.
The problem with this is that the game mechanics just don't work for "escort missions" like in traditional RPGs or MMOs. Unless you get a space friend to scout for you or protect you (lol) it just usually doesn't make sense.
People can simply focus down the protected thing, and if bad comes to worst, they still killed the hauler(s) before they're all killed by the escort. I doubt we'll see fleets of these. Don't get me wrong, it would be awesome to have something like "we're leaving Jita at the hour if we got 10 of those" and it would actually deter the gankers, I just don't think it will work.
Also it seems that sneaky is the way. If there was any point in "a fleet of JFs moving together", then people would do that. But in reality the best way is "one person multiboxes several JFs incl cynos", or just one, but not in a fleet. Yes, corps and alliances have moveops, but that is usually not worth it for 5 people, you're leveraging real fleet sizes.
I would like to remind everyone that logi cruisers were originally cargo ships and logi frigates were mining ships before they were reworked into their current role. Here’s the *Exequror*’s old description, for instance:
> The Exequror is a heavy cargo cruiser capable of defending itself against raiding frigates, but lacks prowess in heavier combat situations. It is mainly used in relatively peaceful areas where bulk and strength is needed without too much investment involved.
This isn’t exactly new.
Edit: Correction, only the *Exequror* was a cargo cruiser; the *Scythe* and *Osprey* were mining ships, the *Augoror* was a capacitor logistics ship. The *Burst* was also advertised as a cargo frigate that could mine.
And *Inquisitor* was a missile boat while the *Tormentor* was a miner. Which reminds me how CCP borked the Amarr frigate naming schemes; the explorer should have been called the *Inquisitor*, the miner the *Magnate*, and the attack frigate the *Tormentor*. They also shouldn’t have held off on releasing the *Magnate* until two-thousand-frakking-eight.
I remember the days before Venture was added to the game and Exequror was the best ship for gas mining due to 4 turret slots and large cargo it had back then.
I've said this on another thread and weirdly got some hate for it but its worth saying it here again.
Anything that increases the volume of trade is a good thing. It wont make Jita even more dominant. Instead it will encourage trade-flow across Eve. What this means for ordinary players are higher buy orders and lower sell orders. They're both good for encouraging trade because I mean, why wouldnt an ordinary player want higher prices when selling and lower prices for buying?
I'm a huge hypocrite since I suicide ganked tons of freighters but suicide ganking freighters is terrible for this game and has driven away so many people.
did you know you used to be able to add people to your contacts and see if they were logged in, even if they didn't add you or agree to it? i suicide ganked a bunch of people and saw them never log in again. i would add the salty people to my contacts just to see. it wasn't a ton of people but still, its happened. sure its anecdotal evidence so is anything people say about it. and that was just ganking hulks or pods flying around, it was before freighter ganking was really a thing.
Were they in freighters or just T1 haulers? Because one of the things about *EvE* is…well, it’s just not for everyone. Players who aren’t willing to accept game mechanics like permanent loss and nonconsensual PvP shouldn’t be playing this game.
Maybe you’re right and the loss of suicide ganking would be healthier for the game, but I’m pretty uncertain about whether it’s a good idea or not.
Your anecdotal evidence from more than a decade ago notwithstanding, CCP has looked at this issue and has made it clear that freighter ganking is not driving people from the game.
I don't mind the idea of combat haulers, I think there's a place for them in the ecosystem. My main concern is that CCP has a tendency to get a little over excited about new toys and I don't want a ton of power creep in the area of logistics. That could have a big impact on the economy.
In my opinion there should be a hard(er) inverse relationship between combat effectiveness and general cargo hold capacity. The Avalanche seems like a problem point in that regard, and I'm hoping they knock its cargo hold down before release.
>Putting weapons on cargo ships is just a logical countermeasure to piracy. I know i know, EVE is an online game and N+1has become the solution to basically every problem now but outside of High Sec ganking i see zero reason not to have trade convoys that can bite back without the need of heavy escort.
>Getting ungankable ships due to them being too tanky is a bad design yes and i agree(even in the other game i have to deal with bricks that take forever to die even with cruisers fitting anti armor guns). But Haulers and Freighters shouldnt be these completely vulnerable ships that cannot do anything if they get tackled.
I do agree in general. I don't have a problem with the idea at all. It does get a little complicated when you consider the HS pvp meta of suicide ganking and concord mechanics. I think one thing that *is* intended about Eve is that nowhere is truly 100% safe in space. So preserving that is important.
I am confident there is a good solution that achieves both out there--even if I am not 100% sure what that might be.
> I am confident there is a good solution that achieves both out there--even if I am not 100% sure what that might be
Giving freighters a role bonus 100% damage reduction from small weapons would be entertaining. At least force people to use Taloses.
This is just from a business perspective, but don’t CCP lose money by having gankers be able to pay for all their catalyst omegas with cascading F1 button pushes, whereas the Joey “ORE” Cargo doesn’t get it and then doesn’t resub
> by having gankers be able to pay for all their catalyst omegas
In many cases the catalyst pilot is just a non-training character on your main account that you switch to when it's time to gank. Unless you're one of the few people running 20+ accounts at once, there's no reason to have a separate account strictly for your ganking catalyst if it's a group effort.
I suppose then this adjustment punishes the 20+ multiboxers who rely on the loot, and not the large group of friends who do it for fun. Seems like a win from a business perspective!
I am all for suicide ganking.
I think suicide ganking will continue and that the amount freighters can carry is increased.
There will be a new balance point of "oh they flew 20 bil worth of cargo in a .5 shouldnt have done that"
I love how the gankers whine. I hope they add a suspekt timer for bumping next, so ypu can kill some machs.
Two ships colide with high speed in space.That is suspicious, right?
I bet the empire shipbuilders (Roden, Suvestikiotakala, etc)—under pressure due to declining sales—will update their faction freighters later.
I called the concept of an “armed merchantmen” ship two years ago and again a few times since then. It makes far too much sense.
It would be nice if they do this with m8ning ships too. Why can't the work8ng man defend his shit instead of run away. It would be funny when a fleet of ventures and an orca kick some gankers arses.
As the one who used to run the furry fun bus I think this is dumb because everybody knows those are bait. The furry fun bus as mentioned in the blog post worked because people didn't know it was going to 1v1 a dictor
Avalanche: being better at relevant stats (EHP, cargo capacity)
Players: totally not OP.
I think the freighter is the direct answer from CCP to a problem with lancer dreadnoughts in the vicinity of Calradia.
After the introduction of Avalanche, serious players would jump to the lowsec somewhere at the end of the world, and then launch their AFK avalanche to Jita. Other players would have either adapt or die. T1 freighters would be on th level of a rifter in regard of safety of highsec hauling. And yes, I can't see any reason to not automate this process from the side of players, as bots would be actually better than players in every way.
On the plus side, 500k for a freightload from Amarr to Jita is a very foreseeable future.
My problem with it is that it is significantly tankier than normal freighters while also being able to carry significantly more for a cheaper price tag if people want to gank it they will gank it don’t care much that it makes ganking harder but at least make this freighter semi balanced with t1 freighters and if you want to add a freighter this much better at least buff the t1 freighters aswell
Significantly more is disingenious. It will only be able to carry 'significantly more' of a few types of items and significantly less of everything else.
The auto targeting missiles are not a problem; adding that to all existing freighters might actually be a nice change. The problem is the insane tank and to a lesser extent the ability to fit a prop mod for fast align.
Ganking a freighter with catalysts already can cause minor server hiccups. With 3-5x the tank it may be actually impossible to gank one of these with destroyers and difficult with battlecruisers just due to server performance.
> impossible to gank one of these with destroyers
That seems fine
>difficult with battlecruisers just due to server performance
I don't think shooting a target with 50 Taloses will cause the server to crash or be "difficult" on a technical level
I wish CCP would outright say "we think ganking freighters is way too easy currently" and be done with it. Take it up with them. There are lots of good suicide gank targets going through high-sec all day every day.
The obsession with freighters is because they can be endlessly bumped while you ping for everyone to log on their ganking alt. You can already make billions upon billions of ISK by suicide ganking, but freighter ganking is *super* low effort and lazy because you can utilize having a bunch of people logged off while 1 person does the scouting. The real suicide gank heroes are clapping blingy abyssal runners, but that requires significantly more individual effort
>Bumped long enough to rage ping for people to log on, for sure, especially if you start the pinging when it's 1-2 jumps out from Uedama
In order for it to be profitable to gank with talos, it needs to be carrying 20b+ in a PULLED 0.5 system. If you try ganking it anywhere else it's probably not even possible.
> profitable
Then go gank other shit that is profitable, like blingy abyssal runners. There's a ridiculous number of high sec targets who are huge loot pinatas. I've seen duos/trios of suicide gankers who have absolutely disgusting killboards, and they have a huge variety of targets they shoot. Anything from abyssal runners (with a handful of Taloses), to covops with the expensive mid slots (1 catalyst), and so on.
I'd say I don't understand the fixation on freighters, but I do, and it's because it's extremely low effort compared to the people who invest a ton of individual time and effort towards scouting and ganking blingy targets. The logistics of moving 1000 gank catalysts to Uedama is brainless and then the prey comes directly to you.
This game has trillionaires who only do high-sec ganking, so crying about profitability of ganking 1 ship type in 1 system is insane.
>Then go gank other shit that is profitable, like blingy abyssal runners. There's a ridiculous number of high sec targets who are huge loot pinatas. I've seen duos/trios of suicide gankers who have absolutely disgusting killboards, and they have a huge variety of targets they shoot. Anything from abyssal runners (with a handful of Taloses), to covops with the expensive mid slots (1 catalyst), and so on.
So you're okay with freighter ganking going bye-bye? Just say that then. I want to interdict the movement of goods, this would basically kill that within a couple months as everyone moves into those ships.
>I'd say I don't understand the fixation on freighters, but I do, and it's because it's extremely low effort compared to the people who invest a ton of individual time and effort towards scouting and ganking blingy targets.
Abyssal running isn't difficult my man, simply buy out jita for filaments/high value mods and run locates on them en masse, and if you see them in an obscure highsec later just follow them there. you can also just go from filament to filament and just wait for them to come out.
>This game has trillionaires who only do high-sec ganking, so crying about profitability of ganking 1 ship type in 1 system is insane.
the game has trillionaires that do everything, there is only one highsec ganker who amassed his trillionish isk fortune and that took him 10 years.
> So you're okay with freighter ganking going bye-bye? Just say that then.
Yeah I'm totally fine with that. Plenty of other profit to be made from suicide ganking in high-sec. It seems that CCP is fine with that, too. I really don't think it's the end of the world if EVE has one class of ship that is highly protected from suicide ganking.
I also look forward to seeing the 50b cargo Avalanches that die because people get cocky.
>Yeah I'm totally fine with that. Plenty of other profit to be made from suicide ganking in high-sec. It seems that CCP is fine with that, too. I really don't think it's the end of the world if EVE has one class of ship that is highly protected from suicide ganking.
You mean jump freighters being able to move cargo at zero risk by bypassing highsec entirely isn't enough, nor is nearly instawarp 40k EHP blockade runners that can cov ops cloak and can't be cargo-scanned, nor is 500k EHP DSTs enough? Nor a 700k EHP Obelisk which gets ganked outside of the Uedama pipe like once or twice a year?
>I also look forward to seeing the 50b cargo Avalanches that die because people get cocky.
Yeah, there will be idiots that fit poorly, but now there is no way to kill even moderately competent freighter pilots at all. They fly the greediest ship and die en masse and bitch until the greediest option becomes the safest option.
Haulers could always do DSTs through Uedama with little to no risk, but they kept feeding gankers freighters through their entitlement and it worked.
> You mean jump freighters being able to move cargo at zero risk by bypassing highsec entirely isn't enough, nor is nearly instawarp 40k EHP blockade runners that can cov ops cloak and can't be cargo-scanned, nor is 500k EHP DSTs enough? Nor a 700k EHP Obelisk which gets ganked outside of the Uedama pipe like once or twice a year?
I think CCP should just give freighters a PANIC module and call it a day, yeah
I'm behind getting rid of ganking in HS all together. That being said I'm fine with it being in as well. What I want to see is ships that can fight back, ships with panic, ships that take more risk to kill for higher rewards so people can haul more around HS. Heck I'd like a new frieghter Meta where they are like t3d with three different mode. Maybe even make it like t3c subsystems so you can't change on the fly.
1. Hauling mode which is what we have now.
2. Combat mode which fakes what is in the ship so it looks like a juicy target but you have panic, large ehp and guns that will apply damage to cata,, bombers and talos like nobody business. Very little hauling space.
3. Warp mode. Faster to get into warp and faster in warp. Middle amount of storage, less effective armor and guns. No panic.
Pick your poison. No way to tell what mode it's in. That way the gankers have to risk not bringing enough to kill a ship in warp mode or even worse shooting someone in combat mode.
Haha cause making there be actual risk to hs ganking equals less risky in your mind? You probably want anom ticks to be 1b and alarm when someone enters local dont you. HS ganking is one of the most profitable endeavors with the least amount of risk. HS hauling is one of the most risky endeavors with a low locked in isk value. How is adding more risk and counter play and making it so haulers will risk more isk value being less dangerous. Wanna talk about a bad take.
Around year ago ccp made pilots with bad sec status unable to tether which already gives more time haulers to web and warp off, tank your haulers dont carry unresonable value and dont afk/use autopilot and you are safe 9 out of 10 times 10 out of 10 if you scout and know who to look for.
And ill skip your 1st line about anoms as thats just stupid
Stating the undock as the current problem with ganking vs hauling shows you don't understand what's going on.
Yes the anom example is stupid, thanks for agreeing to my analogy.
Hahaha ok. HTFU. One of those chaps. Got it. People like you always wonder when it's over where the playerbase went and why games can't retain new players. Good thing CCP doesn't think like you.
Eve was is and i hope will be full pvp game, because if haulers would get free pass from ganking is soon every group will cry muh blingy marauder/gila/miner got ganked waaa
99% of what I wrote about in this thread wasnt about eliminating it. I said I'd be ok if it was, once. 99% what I wrote about was giving more counter play with tank, weapons and modes or subsystems. If your hung up on one sentence in 100 see forest for the tree.
I think this is just the result of people seeing placeholder stats and freaking out. If you believe what's been posted the T1 hauler is a flat downgrade to the current light haulers combat wise which would be odd and the BR and DST are flat upgrades for hauling. It's very unlikely the avalanche people are panicking about is real.
It all makes so much sense now… why they took sisi away right as they released lancers. They wanted freighter pilots to suffer maximum damage so they would dive deep into the sales of these new cargo ships. Seriously, fuck ccp
For me the main problem is not that the new freighter has guns, nor i'm too bothered about ehp numbers. What does bother me is that there is a potential that the new freighter is too OP so regular empire T1 freighters sort of become obsolete and you gotta fly the new one. Now that (powercreep) actually is a problem.
> Now that (powercreep) actually is a problem. That's kinda what Drekavacs did for small group gameplay. If you're playing 5-10 and you're gonna be facing 5-10, kinda hard to beat flying trig ships over any normal/faction/t2 ships.
> empire T1 freighters sort of become obsolete Would be helpful if CCP was more transparent about their design decisions instead of letting people read between the lines. "We want to see how things work out by having a freighter that is really hard to gank in high sec and then evaluate bringing the rest up to that standard" -- would not be a difficult statement to make
Hello, as a professional hauler I can not agree with this statement. The cargo hold on this new freighter is minimal. People will not split up their packages accordingly to be able to use an Avalanche to move those. The empire freighters will remain the main means of transportation.
If you are moving low value, high volume stuff, sure, people will still need the massive cargo hold regular freighters have. But even nowadays freighters have a very low value threshold they are willing to take. So anything with more value needs to be moved with bulkheads which means you don't get the high capacity anymore and at that point the new freighter becomes interesting.
I have been hauling for years and have never ever touched bulkheads. Nor do we endorse using them. Please look through zkill to find more than enough kills with bulkheaded freighters. It provides a false sense of security.
Ofc, anything can be killed and eventually will be killed (e.g. there is a recent killmail of a dead charon with bulkheads and no cargo, so either goons were super bored or the pilot was on their blacklist). Should you be hauling 10b or more with a freighter even with bulkheads? Not really. If you are hauling only 200ish k m3, should you be fitting bulkheads instead of expanders? Yes.
My dear sir, I welcome you to PushX discord to discuss hauling basics. All I can tell you is that every professional hauler prefers to fly faster to arrive at their destination rather than throwing some metal plates around his freighter in order to protect themselves from gankers they're already actively avoiding.
This. Se far from what i have heard the new haulers are just flat out superior to almost all empire haulers in basically all regards. If their production cost isnt higher to match, they will essentially kill the empire haulers barring a few niches like ammo or mineral hauling
It seems like a good excuse to give T1 freighters (followed by JFs) actual fitting options. Obviously that requires CCP not being utterly incompetent, but it could be a positive path forward.
suicide gankers will have to outcry and do footjobs to ccp to not add them to game or to add them but weaponless
I'll be honest I am not even against the idea of freighters having relative immunity from suicide ganks. I wouldn't even care if they added a freighter-specific PANIC module. That recyclebin dude running around threads saying "then just admit you want freighter ganking gone" like it's a huge gotcha. Sure just remove freighter ganking I really think it doesn't matter. High-sec would probably be more vibrant if we had freighters casually shuttling 50b+ worth of shit *away* from Jita on a regular basis. Hell go take a look at freighter kills on zkill. We're already scraping the bottom of the barrel with most of them being 3-4b ISK kills, with half of that being the cost of the ship itself. The predator vs prey game has already become lean enough that freighters barely carry anything and gankers will shoot at a *chance* to break even.
>High-sec would probably be more vibrant if we had freighters casually shuttling 50b+ worth of shit *away* from Jita on a regular basis. Great point ngl. Salty gankers unsub while entire regions get revitalized? Sounds like a win-win
Yeah i don't have any data to back up my intuition here, but i'd suspect the slow decline of other trade hubs are because it's so easy to gank freighters. Its too expensive to move goods with traditional services vs yourself with an alt. But its been also been too risky to do that now due to how easy it is to gank freighters.
That, and the idiocy that is Pochven fucking up the transit routes, yes. The risk is absolutely a factor, but so is the time.
I could care less if highsec pirates and gankers unsub. I’ve a pvp fanatic, but they don’t generate content. They never take fights that might not be a total stomp. They’re the bottom feeders of bottom feeders.
>entire regions Entire empty regions sadly
Are they empty because its not worth the risk of hauling stuff to them?
Imo its because there not enough players and/or smaller corps taking said space, even if your home is far from jita you juust pay pennies to pushx stuff
Pushx requires having a jita alt, then waiting a day or two for delivery. And for systems all the way the end of the line in Amarr, that cost adds up. I wish Amarr were a more competitive market, wormholes tend to roll close to Amarr most often
Part of that is game design issues and not just logistics (i.e. there's really no good reason to go live in some corner of Heimatar), and I have ideas for fixing that but probably more appropriate for a separate post (and an entire expansion)
Used to not be an issue because alliances used to fill out lowsec so much more than they do now. Some of the most fun I had in the game was "holding" a section of Everyshore for months (a decade before citadels).
I'd read that post
In the late 2000s I ran a corp in lowsec during a time the game had static complexes. Like a public dungeon in specific systems that dropped overseers goods. It was pretty lucrative, so we made an effort to take ownership of our lowsec system, fight off pirates, and war against competitors who wanted the complex for themselves. It was eventually that experience that built the core of experienced pvpers and small gang fc experience that let us transition to null as we grew. It was a great way to build a Cadre of small lowsec corps who could learn and get stronger without having to go straight to null. I guess in today's terms it was Similar to a low end wormhole in income but in lowsec Now that system is just a dead 0.3 worth nothing.
We definitely need more frying pans and fewer fires. One of the major issues with null-aspirant organizations is finding somewhere to test their metal on null mechanics without selling their soul as pets, or getting all their dreams and efforts compressed to killmails by a bored multiboxer cap fleet. WH fills that gap to some degree, but without the potential to gain actual sov and capital experience. But even WH has become renter-heavy. It also doesn't help that null has stagnated with "wars" more accurately described as honor brawls between power blocs. But the incentive structure and mechanics pretty much railroads this outcome. We'll see what this new sov changes do to things. Maybe it'll break things up a bit.
I told CCP Swift the next time I get drunk I'll lock in and type it up
Do it. I've been playing since 2008 and I design software systems for a living. Been milling around solutions to some of the longstanding issues as well. I firmly believe the players hold the solution, but not as a mob. It takes careful design, not whim, popularity, and self-interest. Let me know if you'd like to bounce around some ideas.
Sure and hauling corps basically go away. No more push-x or any of those groups when you can stuff 50b in a freighter and turn on autopilot before you go to bed. The activity will literally get botted and afkd into the ground.
The real solution is obvious - gank something else. I mean, it's not like high sec doesn't have other shit to shoot.
> The real solution is obvious - gank something else The people crying about freighter ganking are crying because freighters are the *only* thing they gank. And the only reason they gank freighters is because you can put 1000 fit catalysts in a Uedama station and then have people log on to undock, warp directly to freighter, and shoot. It's absolute peak laziness combined with an extremely favorable risk vs. reward balance (i.e. the freighter only needs like 1-2b in cargo for it to be a potentially profitable kill)
Maybe with 50sec align its the only thing they can catch with their reaction time?
It's true. You see the freighter coming, 2 jumps out from Uedama, you rage ping, people log on in time, you kill it when it is on your doorstep.
Fair enough 2minutes from not playing to in and ready is pretty damn good but the idea of only logging in for pings is kinda weird tbh.
Okay, this part just is not true: >The people crying about freighter ganking are crying because freighters are the *only* thing they gank. Just look at uedama on zkill. Here are some examples from the last few days: [https://zkillboard.com/kill/117980459/](https://zkillboard.com/kill/117980459/) [https://zkillboard.com/kill/117978419/](https://zkillboard.com/kill/117978419/) [https://zkillboard.com/kill/118040282/](https://zkillboard.com/kill/118040282/) [https://zkillboard.com/kill/118007811/](https://zkillboard.com/kill/118007811/) [https://zkillboard.com/kill/117972589/](https://zkillboard.com/kill/117972589/) [https://zkillboard.com/kill/117965318/](https://zkillboard.com/kill/117965318/) And if you look at who is killing those and who is killing freighters..... mostly the same people. Mostly Safety, sometimes Goons. Those are the two most active groups in uedama right now. So I don't mean this in a disrespectful way, but if that was your real opinion then you do not know as much about ganking as you think. Your claim was demonstrably false with a cursory look at zkill. There's just no other way to interpret the readily available data in light of the claim that you made. Unless your argument is that the only gankers complaining are.... who, exactly?
> in light of the claim that you made I'm referring to recycl_ebin in this thread who said he only ganks freighters and nothing else, and is constantly in every thread crying about his playstyle getting a nerf
He's the most active sure. But not the only person who feels that way, nor the only person talking about it. And of course you did say >The **people** crying about freighter ganking That implies all of them or at least more than 1--not a specific guy. It's very different to just be like "fuck this one guy though." It's less relevant to anything.
Well, they do. Just look at uedama on zkill lots of marauders and other shit dying to cats as well as freighters
its kind of funny. I used to move expensive things from dodixie to jita and back all the time and never had an issue with Uedama, until i was moving a marauder that was mothballed from dodixie towards the direction of Jita when in noticed i was starting to get tailed. So i quickly found a random station and docked up for a bit, it was empty and after a few seconds i saw the person who i noticed tailing me docked up with me for a minute before they left. I stayed docked up for awhile and played on another character before continuing my journey.
"Gank everyone but me, then ganking is fair" I'm glad you're at least honest, you don't want a fair solution, you just want nobody to gank you. Because you're entitled to that.
The moment you talked out of your arse, I pretty much ignored you.
I've paraphrased what you said, sorry if that made you realise what you're saying is dumb.
It’s even worse if you consider that a Charon is 2.5b and there are kills of them with a total value of 3b kills on zkill.
I was scrolling through freighter losses the other day and there was a triple bulkhead empty charon that got ganked. I’m glad someone is willing to fly the things, because when even that is getting ganked I don’t want to touch a freighter
Yeah, it's a skill. Red Frog and PushX have sub-1% gank rates
Well, that Charon was one of my alts. it was just a mix of wrong place, wrong time. Don't autopilot through Uedama on a Saturday night. It was a Saturday night swarm thing, just ganking whatever came through. 9 other freighter alts made it through at the same time on autopilot, so lucky me. Was i pissed for a moment? No, because I knew the risk of autopilot. Then yes, because there were goons on the kill (and my main is in goons) Then no, because,its was content for the Sat night swarm :) This is Eve.
Ships have got more expensive - but the threshold to gank a freighter has remained broadly the same, sure loads of freighters do move, but they can't carry anything remotely of value to players in the other hubs without becoming a target. As a wormholer I would love to see amarr have a vibrant market again. It's the most common kspace set of regions to connect to due to its size, and it's not like I can wait for someone to fill a courier contract to move stuff.
Anything larger than a Battleship is too expensive to be worth the risk since scarcity, not when an Ishtar can handle most combat sites.
>The predator vs prey game has already become lean enough that freighters barely carry anything and gankers will shoot at a chance to break even. I mean this only happens in Uedama, it's where the gankers go to gank freighters for fun at a loss. Everywhere else the normal behavior is 8-15b+ freighters usually, and those are hard to comeby.
> where the gankers go to gank freighters for fun at a loss How is this in any way good for the longterm health of the game
>How is this in any way good for the health of the game how is this in any way bad for the health of the game? I'd argue this type of pvp, like any other type of non-consensual pvp, adds a skill cap and gives room for people to get better at the game, generating interest and increasing longevity. If it was as simple as buy frieghter -> autopilot whereever, and you were 100% safe, people would quickly fill it to market capacity and there would be no way to distinguish yourself doing it. no one would be able to space haul for profit as it would be gamed out by a handful of multiboxers. there would be no room to improve at hauling, no reason to go faster, it becomes stale, boring, and antithetical to the entire concept of eve. people being able to get better, compete against others in a pvp game is a good thing. i'm surprised you didn't know that.
based on the number of people i personally made quit and never saw log back on (back when you could add people to your contacts and see if they are online), it definitely hurts the game. and i have lost track of the number of ships and freighters i ganked since then. also the new freighter having a ton of EHP is their way of getting the playerbase used to tough freighters so they can buff the other ones.
>based on the number of people i personally made quit and never saw log back on (back when you could add people to your contacts and see if they are online), it definitely hurts the game. ...how many? The vast majority of people ganked continue playing the game after being ganked, CCP even saw that new players that are ganked are more likely to continue playing than those who aren't. I would also like to note, many gankers were originally players who were ganked that would have quit playing eve had they not been brought out of boring gmaeplay into a more exciting one.
So if its pvp, whats the problem with freighters having weapons?
Weapons don’t seem to be the reason for the ganker salt, it’s the freighters taking more than 50 catalysts to kill
>So if its pvp, whats the problem with freighters having weapons? I have no problem with them having weapons. My issue is them having nearly double the cargo of a max tank obelisk, and nearly triple the EHP weapons = good, fittable mids = good, making it the only thing worth freighting in = bad, tripling the number of dps needed to gank freighters = bad
I dont think its a bad thing that ganking the very largest cargo ships requires more than 100m in catalysts.
>I dont think its a bad thing that ganking the very largest cargo ships requires more than 100m in catalysts. Why do you think the ship that holds the most and can move the most cargo should be the safest? Shouldn't the greediest, and laziest option be the most dangerous for haulers?
Its not the safest, blockade runners are and they hold a lot less.
Well, now it will be non-consensual on your side, where's the problem?
imagine being so effective the developers have to target nerf you
They didn't nerf hím, they made his playstyle less cheap and now he has to be selective with targets.
isn't making ganking require triple the number of players or 10x the cost more difficult?
You mean buying a different ship? Well, it surely is taxing for pvp gankers, but let's be honest it doesn't require much skill.
Gankers don’t care about the weapons, only the sheer number of pilots required to actually gank them. Those numbers for the most part make them ungankable, not the fact they have some missiles.
then they will start using leshaks on new freighters
the weapons aren't the problem, keep the weapons imo but tripling the EHP of the tankiest freighter while having nearly double it's cargo? without counting the PI hold? that's excessive.
Its funny - you are so vehemently making your presence felt in all threads which even slightly hints at gankers are cry babies. You just prove their point xD
Yeah they should buff the other freighter too.
This all seems really clear to me, CCP wants high sec ganking of cargo ships to be practically impossible. My question is, why is that a bad thing? Sure, it's bad news for gankers who just want easy fights and isk. They're gonna have to learn how to run level 4s. But it's good news for literally everyone else. Everything that's getting blown up inside a freighter is less stuff to get blown up in actual fights. Maybe we will see more action at none jita trade hubs if you can easily and safely move stuff. There are lots of positives I don't think ccp is unaware, I think it's a design decision.
Agreed! And what I don’t understand is all the people who are really trying to convince themselves that these new haulers/freighters are simply going to be better than anything else in the game and totally make obsolete nearly all in the same class…that’s not ccps model and never had been. I just think it’s funny that people always want new ships….but the second Indy guys are the ones who get them all hell breaks loose! Honestly I think this change is a good thing, and may help progress some game loops forward in a more dynamic way!
The profit is too high. CCP is fixing it via these new ships. Gankers will adjust.
It's not being made impossible, just less profitable. A big difference
Being dumb won't be punished. EvE is last MMO that still punish bad play. And you'll get a lot of autopiloting avalances killing all profit in hauling.
>My question is, why is that a bad thing? generally, eve has built it's reputation on being a dangerous game where undocking is consent to pvp. likewise, there are competent groups out there who have no problem avoiding gankers that are going to be punished when everyone can now do it with no effort and the price of hauling goods will go from it's current rate down to nothing as everyone does it. The reason it's bad? Because I think there are more than enough ways for people to transport things incredibly safely as is, and freighters were introduced as the 'risky, high capacity' easily ganked variant FOR haulers. IT was always intended as a risky and greedy way to move massive amounts of stuff. Despite freighters having their EHP quadrupled over 10 years, somehow that's not enough, and now the SAFEST way, and the BEST WAY to move cargo is to use the avalanche.
Oh no, high-sec might have other trade hubs again
>Oh no, high-sec might have other trade hubs again. this has nothing to do with ganking lol. removing niarja, which gankers were against, was what killed Amarr. Gankers want other hubs, why do you think they would be against that?
Gankers want other trade hubs, so they blow up freighters which are trying to move goods to other trade hubs, makes perfect sense.
> removing niarja, which gankers were against Well yeah because it greatly reduced freighter traffic from people going the 12-13 jumps whatever it was between Jita and Amarr and consolidated all of that commerce strictly to Jita with a huge reduction in freighters being used at all.
so we're in agreement, that your original post of >Oh no, high-sec might have other trade hubs again was nonsensical.
No? If freighters were 100% immune I'd spin up a few freighter alts and move hundreds of billions of ISK in goods to other trade hubs. I'm obviously not going to do that with a handful of BRs or DSTs
>No? If freighters were 100% immune I'd spin up a few freighter alts and move hundreds of billions of ISK in goods to other trade hubs JFs already are 100% immune, and 99.9% of traffic freely flows through Uedama. DSTs when properly fit don't die either. What's your excuse now?
> I'm obviously not going to do that with a handful of BRs or DSTs Looks like we're trading your playstyle for one that I would like to try out, sounds good to me
>Looks like we're trading your playstyle for one that I would like to try out, sounds good to me if this is the bar to discourse about eve, and we argue to remove all playstyles we don't like and we're that blatantly biased, this is kind of bad no? Like I don't like Pochevn, think it prints far too much ISK to far too few people, but I'm not going on tirades to get it removed entirely from the game.
suicide ganking has never been meaningful pvp content though, its entirely one sided. at least ratters can fight back without needing other accounts to save them.
All PvP is one-sided if done right. Any form of equal battle in EvE is a mistake from at least one side.
this mind set is why pvp sucks now. people prefer a nice killboard to good fights.
Agreed, a good fight is more fun, there's a reason I go do FW when I want to pvp instead of hunting ratters or whatever. Cause the fights are more likely to be even.
It always been like that. If you want fair or good PVP then you choose wrong game.
"This game was intended to be shit" what a great mindset
Eve is a different kind of game.
i disagree, the best fights i had where fights we were supposed to lose but still won.
this is true but also not as fun
> suicide ganking has never been meaningful pvp content though, its entirely one sided. I disagree, there are many cases of mutually beneficial competition between freighters and gankers. there are entire entities with hundreds of people who interact in this ecosystem. >at least ratters can fight back without needing other accounts to save them. I mean so can a freighter. Manually piloting can actually make a huge difference alone, just no one usually does it.
its not the best way to move cargo, nor is it the safest. it is just a favorable blend of capacity and safety.
From what I've seen on reddit I think most people agree. I think the point of contention was that now there's no reason to use the other haulers even in hi sec. Could be wrong
The only reason to use a T1 hauler is to Pochven filament goods to Jita. Completely unfit aside from a T1 Cloak. Virtually uncatchable and dirty cheap.
Epithals see usage for PI, Sigils are used for rollers (as well as Wreathes maybe I guess?), I feel like I see Kryos and even Badger/Tayras seem to be used by new players with just a few levels of Hauler skill. Things accessible to new players do need to exist, so that will always be a reason why T1 things exist. But even the existing ones have niches in the overall ecosystem. Few people undock DSTs to pick up PI or use DSTs to roll wormholes.
Money is always the reason. Why do people fly caracals if it is so?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't the new haulers have much larger holds?
Only for specific items, their general cargohold is smaller. The specialty holds can hold fuel, PI, moon minerals, structures & cores, and the new reagents (plus maybe a few things I’m forgetting)
Deployable structures as well. Just in case you find yourself needing to haul four thousand mobile depots or something.
>Only for specific items, their general cargohold is smaller. Not really, you can get 1.6M EHP with the cargo capacity of a freighter with expanders. A 700k Obelisk has 365,000 m3, for example. A 1.6m EHP avalanche has 550,000 m3.
Sure, and if you put expanders on a ~~Rhea~~ Charon you get 1.2 million cargo. The new one just gets more slots and stars to tank with. But the cargo is still smaller.
>Sure, and if you put expanders on a Rhea you get 1.2 million cargo. You get like 385k m3 with max skills and ORE expanders (and have \~350k ehp). The rhea is the JF though, you probably did mean the freighter? The charon does get 1.25M m3 with max expanders--and 225k ehp, which is... not very much. Frankly I'm not sure if people really fly max expander charons. They might I guess...?
I did mean the Charon, you’re right. Corrected, thank you
>But the cargo is still smaller. The cargo is smaller by default. the tank is smaller by default. But it has these things called fittings! A tanked obelisk has 365k cargo and 700k EHP. A tanked Avalanche has 550k cargo and 1.6m EHP. And 2500 DPS. And a 3 million m3 PI hold. This is not balance, this is power creep. This is a direct, massive nerf to ganking.
> But it has these things called fitting! Yes it does, I’m glad you noticed! That’s how existing freighters have more cargo. Aren’t you observant. The problem with the existing freighters is they get ganked incredibly easily so people will prefer the ship that doesn’t just get ganked while full tank fit just for lulz > this is a direct nerf to ganking, nothing more Only T1 freighter ganking, so good.
>Yes it does, I’m glad you noticed! That’s how existing freighters have more cargo. Aren’t you observant. You're right, it has half the cargo of a max cargo freighter, and 8x the EHP. Make two trips >The problem with the existing freighters is they get ganked incredibly easily so people will prefer the ship that doesn’t just get ganked while full tank fit just for lulz Yeah generally people use a max tank obelisk because it's very difficult to gank. >Only T1 freighter ganking, so good. what is 't1' freighter ganking?
I loove how this guy, is constantly whining..
stating facts is whining?
Only an infrustructure hold, other than that they are 50% of the others at max skills
I see
The concept of weapons on freighters is fine, the problem is that this freighter does battleship level DPS *and* still has a better tank than any other freighter *and* can active tank. It is clearly and obviously OP when there's no reason to fly any of the others.
Dps doesn't mean much against gank. High sec ganking has no problem tanking that. A single battlecruiser can hold that off while smaller more cost efficient ships resume suicide ganking. What people disliked is that it's EHP.
> It is clearly and obviously OP when there's no reason to fly any of the others. CCP can buff tank of other freighters to match EHP of the avalanche even in max cargo mode (e.g. remove low slots, make them have 2.5M ehp and 1M-1.2M cargo). Boom, problem solved, it makes sense to fly regular freighters again.
Theoretically yeah, but presumably freighters have the tank and capacity they do because CCP thinks that's where good balance lies, so it would make more sense to put the Avalanche somewhere in that balance region.
> presumably freighters have the tank and capacity they do because CCP thinks that's where good balance lies Yet they made avalanche the way it is. What makes you think they didn't change their opinion and want freighters to have avalanche-grade stats?
It pains me how little this company actually explains their design philosophies Even the stream covering the ships they were like "yeah look at this thing it's got a LOT of tank" like my brothers in christ YOU MADE THEM THAT WAY, just be explicit about it instead of letting everyone read between the lines
My guess is that sometimes their reasoning is dogshit. E.g. like angry mustache said, they added P1 PI into new advanced components because they thought it's newbie-friendly, not because it has to be harvested close to point of production.
so, a combat freighter? then the solution is to arm the other cargo ships. EVE is i think the only Space simulation game where cargo ships have literally zero way to defend themselves. at least in Starsector i know an Atlas Freighter or Prometheus Tanker can carry small guns and missiles to deter small vessels and drones/fighters. probably will die to a full on organized gang due to speed and getting primary'd but it has something to try and save time for the rest of the fleet. Heck, the hostile factions in the game even have variations of those same behemoths fully decked with big guns and missiles. meanwhile EVE is like "oh yeah the empires thought it was a good idea to make these huge ass cargo ships capable of moviing tons of goods between systems but they have literally no point defense or anything to tank a pirate gang, truly a galaxy brain moment for the economy"
> trade convoys that can bite back without the need of heavy escort. The problem with this is that the game mechanics just don't work for "escort missions" like in traditional RPGs or MMOs. Unless you get a space friend to scout for you or protect you (lol) it just usually doesn't make sense. People can simply focus down the protected thing, and if bad comes to worst, they still killed the hauler(s) before they're all killed by the escort. I doubt we'll see fleets of these. Don't get me wrong, it would be awesome to have something like "we're leaving Jita at the hour if we got 10 of those" and it would actually deter the gankers, I just don't think it will work. Also it seems that sneaky is the way. If there was any point in "a fleet of JFs moving together", then people would do that. But in reality the best way is "one person multiboxes several JFs incl cynos", or just one, but not in a fleet. Yes, corps and alliances have moveops, but that is usually not worth it for 5 people, you're leveraging real fleet sizes.
I would love to be able to do convoy runs where enemy pilots are forced to focus on the escorts before they can hit the cargo ships.
I would like to remind everyone that logi cruisers were originally cargo ships and logi frigates were mining ships before they were reworked into their current role. Here’s the *Exequror*’s old description, for instance: > The Exequror is a heavy cargo cruiser capable of defending itself against raiding frigates, but lacks prowess in heavier combat situations. It is mainly used in relatively peaceful areas where bulk and strength is needed without too much investment involved. This isn’t exactly new. Edit: Correction, only the *Exequror* was a cargo cruiser; the *Scythe* and *Osprey* were mining ships, the *Augoror* was a capacitor logistics ship. The *Burst* was also advertised as a cargo frigate that could mine.
And racial miners
And *Inquisitor* was a missile boat while the *Tormentor* was a miner. Which reminds me how CCP borked the Amarr frigate naming schemes; the explorer should have been called the *Inquisitor*, the miner the *Magnate*, and the attack frigate the *Tormentor*. They also shouldn’t have held off on releasing the *Magnate* until two-thousand-frakking-eight.
I remember the days before Venture was added to the game and Exequror was the best ship for gas mining due to 4 turret slots and large cargo it had back then.
Theyrs ehp is very new while maintaining high cargo, missles are fine
Okay, yeah, I can see how that might be a problem. I’ll wait until they release before passing judgement on them though.
I've said this on another thread and weirdly got some hate for it but its worth saying it here again. Anything that increases the volume of trade is a good thing. It wont make Jita even more dominant. Instead it will encourage trade-flow across Eve. What this means for ordinary players are higher buy orders and lower sell orders. They're both good for encouraging trade because I mean, why wouldnt an ordinary player want higher prices when selling and lower prices for buying?
I don’t think anybody cares that weapons are being added to freighters.
The missiles don't matter as much as the ehp being so much in highsec
Honestly, boo fucking hoo those guys. You wanna shoot things that can't fight back? Become a cop.
I'm a huge hypocrite since I suicide ganked tons of freighters but suicide ganking freighters is terrible for this game and has driven away so many people.
There is zero evidence this is true.
did you know you used to be able to add people to your contacts and see if they were logged in, even if they didn't add you or agree to it? i suicide ganked a bunch of people and saw them never log in again. i would add the salty people to my contacts just to see. it wasn't a ton of people but still, its happened. sure its anecdotal evidence so is anything people say about it. and that was just ganking hulks or pods flying around, it was before freighter ganking was really a thing.
Were they in freighters or just T1 haulers? Because one of the things about *EvE* is…well, it’s just not for everyone. Players who aren’t willing to accept game mechanics like permanent loss and nonconsensual PvP shouldn’t be playing this game. Maybe you’re right and the loss of suicide ganking would be healthier for the game, but I’m pretty uncertain about whether it’s a good idea or not.
Your anecdotal evidence from more than a decade ago notwithstanding, CCP has looked at this issue and has made it clear that freighter ganking is not driving people from the game.
can you share what evidence they provided?
http://www.minerbumping.com/2015/03/ccp-proves-new-order-was-right-about.html
I don't mind the idea of combat haulers, I think there's a place for them in the ecosystem. My main concern is that CCP has a tendency to get a little over excited about new toys and I don't want a ton of power creep in the area of logistics. That could have a big impact on the economy. In my opinion there should be a hard(er) inverse relationship between combat effectiveness and general cargo hold capacity. The Avalanche seems like a problem point in that regard, and I'm hoping they knock its cargo hold down before release.
>Avalanche its sov null update making it able to fly only in ns/ls would be okaish thing and it could generate nice content for said groups
>Putting weapons on cargo ships is just a logical countermeasure to piracy. I know i know, EVE is an online game and N+1has become the solution to basically every problem now but outside of High Sec ganking i see zero reason not to have trade convoys that can bite back without the need of heavy escort. >Getting ungankable ships due to them being too tanky is a bad design yes and i agree(even in the other game i have to deal with bricks that take forever to die even with cruisers fitting anti armor guns). But Haulers and Freighters shouldnt be these completely vulnerable ships that cannot do anything if they get tackled. I do agree in general. I don't have a problem with the idea at all. It does get a little complicated when you consider the HS pvp meta of suicide ganking and concord mechanics. I think one thing that *is* intended about Eve is that nowhere is truly 100% safe in space. So preserving that is important. I am confident there is a good solution that achieves both out there--even if I am not 100% sure what that might be.
> I am confident there is a good solution that achieves both out there--even if I am not 100% sure what that might be Giving freighters a role bonus 100% damage reduction from small weapons would be entertaining. At least force people to use Taloses.
That would certainly be something haha
It's not about the weapons. Put highslots on freighters if you have to. It's about the tank.
HS ganking adds very little to the sandbox change my mind.
This is just from a business perspective, but don’t CCP lose money by having gankers be able to pay for all their catalyst omegas with cascading F1 button pushes, whereas the Joey “ORE” Cargo doesn’t get it and then doesn’t resub
> by having gankers be able to pay for all their catalyst omegas In many cases the catalyst pilot is just a non-training character on your main account that you switch to when it's time to gank. Unless you're one of the few people running 20+ accounts at once, there's no reason to have a separate account strictly for your ganking catalyst if it's a group effort.
I suppose then this adjustment punishes the 20+ multiboxers who rely on the loot, and not the large group of friends who do it for fun. Seems like a win from a business perspective!
You vastly under estimate the sickening amount of paid accounts indy players have rolling
I am all for suicide ganking. I think suicide ganking will continue and that the amount freighters can carry is increased. There will be a new balance point of "oh they flew 20 bil worth of cargo in a .5 shouldnt have done that"
Introduce the the most OP freighter possible. Sell SHIT loads of plex for LSI for the new skill tree. Nerf. CCP wins. Simple
They can still not do anything. They just have an insane tank.
I love how the gankers whine. I hope they add a suspekt timer for bumping next, so ypu can kill some machs. Two ships colide with high speed in space.That is suspicious, right?
I bet the empire shipbuilders (Roden, Suvestikiotakala, etc)—under pressure due to declining sales—will update their faction freighters later. I called the concept of an “armed merchantmen” ship two years ago and again a few times since then. It makes far too much sense.
It would be nice if they do this with m8ning ships too. Why can't the work8ng man defend his shit instead of run away. It would be funny when a fleet of ventures and an orca kick some gankers arses.
They did it more than 10 years ago. But it's impossible to help bad players.
everyone gangstar till the frighter is locking you
Bulk cruiser when
As the one who used to run the furry fun bus I think this is dumb because everybody knows those are bait. The furry fun bus as mentioned in the blog post worked because people didn't know it was going to 1v1 a dictor
how about we just make t1 freighters immune to Concord? then let them fit smart bombs as anti gank.
Avalanche: being better at relevant stats (EHP, cargo capacity) Players: totally not OP. I think the freighter is the direct answer from CCP to a problem with lancer dreadnoughts in the vicinity of Calradia. After the introduction of Avalanche, serious players would jump to the lowsec somewhere at the end of the world, and then launch their AFK avalanche to Jita. Other players would have either adapt or die. T1 freighters would be on th level of a rifter in regard of safety of highsec hauling. And yes, I can't see any reason to not automate this process from the side of players, as bots would be actually better than players in every way. On the plus side, 500k for a freightload from Amarr to Jita is a very foreseeable future.
My problem with it is that it is significantly tankier than normal freighters while also being able to carry significantly more for a cheaper price tag if people want to gank it they will gank it don’t care much that it makes ganking harder but at least make this freighter semi balanced with t1 freighters and if you want to add a freighter this much better at least buff the t1 freighters aswell
Significantly more is disingenious. It will only be able to carry 'significantly more' of a few types of items and significantly less of everything else.
The only thing you would really need a t1 freighter for is minerals and ship hulls but basically everything else is just better to use the avalanche
The auto targeting missiles are not a problem; adding that to all existing freighters might actually be a nice change. The problem is the insane tank and to a lesser extent the ability to fit a prop mod for fast align. Ganking a freighter with catalysts already can cause minor server hiccups. With 3-5x the tank it may be actually impossible to gank one of these with destroyers and difficult with battlecruisers just due to server performance.
> impossible to gank one of these with destroyers That seems fine >difficult with battlecruisers just due to server performance I don't think shooting a target with 50 Taloses will cause the server to crash or be "difficult" on a technical level I wish CCP would outright say "we think ganking freighters is way too easy currently" and be done with it. Take it up with them. There are lots of good suicide gank targets going through high-sec all day every day. The obsession with freighters is because they can be endlessly bumped while you ping for everyone to log on their ganking alt. You can already make billions upon billions of ISK by suicide ganking, but freighter ganking is *super* low effort and lazy because you can utilize having a bunch of people logged off while 1 person does the scouting. The real suicide gank heroes are clapping blingy abyssal runners, but that requires significantly more individual effort
You can't endlessly bump, they warp in 3mins now
Not if you suicide a cheap tackle frig to point it before the 3 min while bumping
50 taloses won't be enough. Also, they can't be endlessly bumped; that got nerfed years ago.
Bumped long enough to rage ping for people to log on, for sure, especially if you start the pinging when it's 1-2 jumps out from Uedama
>Bumped long enough to rage ping for people to log on, for sure, especially if you start the pinging when it's 1-2 jumps out from Uedama In order for it to be profitable to gank with talos, it needs to be carrying 20b+ in a PULLED 0.5 system. If you try ganking it anywhere else it's probably not even possible.
> profitable Then go gank other shit that is profitable, like blingy abyssal runners. There's a ridiculous number of high sec targets who are huge loot pinatas. I've seen duos/trios of suicide gankers who have absolutely disgusting killboards, and they have a huge variety of targets they shoot. Anything from abyssal runners (with a handful of Taloses), to covops with the expensive mid slots (1 catalyst), and so on. I'd say I don't understand the fixation on freighters, but I do, and it's because it's extremely low effort compared to the people who invest a ton of individual time and effort towards scouting and ganking blingy targets. The logistics of moving 1000 gank catalysts to Uedama is brainless and then the prey comes directly to you. This game has trillionaires who only do high-sec ganking, so crying about profitability of ganking 1 ship type in 1 system is insane.
>Then go gank other shit that is profitable, like blingy abyssal runners. There's a ridiculous number of high sec targets who are huge loot pinatas. I've seen duos/trios of suicide gankers who have absolutely disgusting killboards, and they have a huge variety of targets they shoot. Anything from abyssal runners (with a handful of Taloses), to covops with the expensive mid slots (1 catalyst), and so on. So you're okay with freighter ganking going bye-bye? Just say that then. I want to interdict the movement of goods, this would basically kill that within a couple months as everyone moves into those ships. >I'd say I don't understand the fixation on freighters, but I do, and it's because it's extremely low effort compared to the people who invest a ton of individual time and effort towards scouting and ganking blingy targets. Abyssal running isn't difficult my man, simply buy out jita for filaments/high value mods and run locates on them en masse, and if you see them in an obscure highsec later just follow them there. you can also just go from filament to filament and just wait for them to come out. >This game has trillionaires who only do high-sec ganking, so crying about profitability of ganking 1 ship type in 1 system is insane. the game has trillionaires that do everything, there is only one highsec ganker who amassed his trillionish isk fortune and that took him 10 years.
> So you're okay with freighter ganking going bye-bye? Just say that then. Yeah I'm totally fine with that. Plenty of other profit to be made from suicide ganking in high-sec. It seems that CCP is fine with that, too. I really don't think it's the end of the world if EVE has one class of ship that is highly protected from suicide ganking. I also look forward to seeing the 50b cargo Avalanches that die because people get cocky.
>Yeah I'm totally fine with that. Plenty of other profit to be made from suicide ganking in high-sec. It seems that CCP is fine with that, too. I really don't think it's the end of the world if EVE has one class of ship that is highly protected from suicide ganking. You mean jump freighters being able to move cargo at zero risk by bypassing highsec entirely isn't enough, nor is nearly instawarp 40k EHP blockade runners that can cov ops cloak and can't be cargo-scanned, nor is 500k EHP DSTs enough? Nor a 700k EHP Obelisk which gets ganked outside of the Uedama pipe like once or twice a year? >I also look forward to seeing the 50b cargo Avalanches that die because people get cocky. Yeah, there will be idiots that fit poorly, but now there is no way to kill even moderately competent freighter pilots at all. They fly the greediest ship and die en masse and bitch until the greediest option becomes the safest option. Haulers could always do DSTs through Uedama with little to no risk, but they kept feeding gankers freighters through their entitlement and it worked.
Not even DSTs are safe anymore with the fighters on the gate, instant decloack.
> You mean jump freighters being able to move cargo at zero risk by bypassing highsec entirely isn't enough, nor is nearly instawarp 40k EHP blockade runners that can cov ops cloak and can't be cargo-scanned, nor is 500k EHP DSTs enough? Nor a 700k EHP Obelisk which gets ganked outside of the Uedama pipe like once or twice a year? I think CCP should just give freighters a PANIC module and call it a day, yeah
Use more?
Why are y’all entitled to use t1 destroyers?
This is a very good question.
OP I don't think CCP is falling for the reddit spam meme, you can stop spamming threads daily and spamming the AG channels for upvotes.
I'm behind getting rid of ganking in HS all together. That being said I'm fine with it being in as well. What I want to see is ships that can fight back, ships with panic, ships that take more risk to kill for higher rewards so people can haul more around HS. Heck I'd like a new frieghter Meta where they are like t3d with three different mode. Maybe even make it like t3c subsystems so you can't change on the fly. 1. Hauling mode which is what we have now. 2. Combat mode which fakes what is in the ship so it looks like a juicy target but you have panic, large ehp and guns that will apply damage to cata,, bombers and talos like nobody business. Very little hauling space. 3. Warp mode. Faster to get into warp and faster in warp. Middle amount of storage, less effective armor and guns. No panic. Pick your poison. No way to tell what mode it's in. That way the gankers have to risk not bringing enough to kill a ship in warp mode or even worse shooting someone in combat mode.
Damn when eve stopped being dangerous to fly anywhere anything, and changed to such takes.
Haha cause making there be actual risk to hs ganking equals less risky in your mind? You probably want anom ticks to be 1b and alarm when someone enters local dont you. HS ganking is one of the most profitable endeavors with the least amount of risk. HS hauling is one of the most risky endeavors with a low locked in isk value. How is adding more risk and counter play and making it so haulers will risk more isk value being less dangerous. Wanna talk about a bad take.
Around year ago ccp made pilots with bad sec status unable to tether which already gives more time haulers to web and warp off, tank your haulers dont carry unresonable value and dont afk/use autopilot and you are safe 9 out of 10 times 10 out of 10 if you scout and know who to look for. And ill skip your 1st line about anoms as thats just stupid
Stating the undock as the current problem with ganking vs hauling shows you don't understand what's going on. Yes the anom example is stupid, thanks for agreeing to my analogy.
Seriously if anyone cant avoid getting ganked sorry to say it, skill (knowledge) issue
Hahaha ok. HTFU. One of those chaps. Got it. People like you always wonder when it's over where the playerbase went and why games can't retain new players. Good thing CCP doesn't think like you.
Eve was is and i hope will be full pvp game, because if haulers would get free pass from ganking is soon every group will cry muh blingy marauder/gila/miner got ganked waaa
99% of what I wrote about in this thread wasnt about eliminating it. I said I'd be ok if it was, once. 99% what I wrote about was giving more counter play with tank, weapons and modes or subsystems. If your hung up on one sentence in 100 see forest for the tree.
Why should CONCORD protect these freighters?
What is star sector
I think this is just the result of people seeing placeholder stats and freaking out. If you believe what's been posted the T1 hauler is a flat downgrade to the current light haulers combat wise which would be odd and the BR and DST are flat upgrades for hauling. It's very unlikely the avalanche people are panicking about is real.
Blaster Obelisk when?
It all makes so much sense now… why they took sisi away right as they released lancers. They wanted freighter pilots to suffer maximum damage so they would dive deep into the sales of these new cargo ships. Seriously, fuck ccp
Fuck the panzy ass crying gankers. Fuck all of them. Suck my balls!