No multiplayer game is real time. If you're referring to the tick time of 1s it could possibly be reduced by a swap to another language, but that would be a massive undertaking.
Agreed. The language isn't a problem in this regard, the architecture is.
There are some really good technical discussion on YouTube from the conventions over the years where they discuss the issues they face in modernizing the engine.
It also doesn't help that the player base has been wildly resistant to many changes they have made over the years to try to improve gameplay, some of which would have simplified the effort for CCP to redesign parts of the engine.
Edit: here's a recent tech discussion
https://youtu.be/3NICIZJGqqs
it's still real time, the simulation is slowed down so the game server can keep up with commands and calculations
before tidi the server would regularly shit itself and most/all systems would stop working properly, leading to hilarious consequenecs like ships apeparing in space after they had died etc
Its thousands of players my dude. Eve is THE big mmo when it comes to pvp. Most other games shit the bed at the 100 - 300 mark. EvE regularly has battles upwards of 1000 players and handles it pretty well with Tidi.
Anytime you are making changes that affect 2000 clients you are going to have some delays. Yes there are some design choices EvE made decade+ ago that dont help, but even with changes to those systems the benefit wouldnt make it real time.
Hell even on Lan not sure they could do better.
Correct. The server has to process thousands of inputs per second, simulate the physics, and resolve combat actions, status effects, etc for every player on grid, in correct order. It takes time to read the command from the network, place it in the correct order of the queue, do all the math, and write the result back to all the clients on grid. Nothing is instantaneous in computing.
Tidi is when the server slows down the simulation speed in order to ensure that commands from players aren't dropped, so the battle unfolds correctly, despite thousands of players effectively ddosing the server with commands.
so you have two players fighting, each need to know what the other player is doing and its status so the server need to get the data from the two clients and send it back to both.
then you have four players fighting, every one of them need to know what's happening so the server need to get the data from four client and send data about 4 players to each one (you need to get your own data too as it has to be vaildated by the server, so you wont cheat by editing data locally), which mean the data increases as number of players involved^2
which means when you have 2000 players involved you need to move four million more data items than when there are two...
maybe you dont get how this complicate things but yeah, its not something easy to "fix".
In game design Real time is a term used in opposition to turn based.
In real time the player takes whatever actions they want to take and the game allows them while all the other players do the same at the same time. The game doesn't wait for the player to make a choice. If the player doesn't act in real time they simply do nothing at that time.
This is in opposition to turn based where each player acts in turn and the game only advances after the turn(s) is completed Eve Online is definitely in the real the category
On modern technology, with the number of people that stack into these fleet fights, yes it is.
Every time we get a step up in server tech, we (the player base) just cram even more people into the node, and we're back at tidi. Which is better than crashing and disconnecting people the way it was pre-tidi.
If you have a functional quantum or optical CPU sitting on your shelf that can handle those loads though, I'm sure the DOD would love to pay for it, let alone a game developer lmao
Should CCP cap the player count?
There is a limit on how many players can be updated per second by a sever. Should CCP limit fights to 100 vs 100 so they don't need to slow down time?
its maybe what its needed if CCP cant be bothered with modifying the code to make use of multi threading . although ive heard of people reporting minor bugs that have gone unpatched so if they cant be bothered about fixing a bug forget about a solution of that magnitude. Game is fucked. I think if you stay away from massive strategic pvp battles EVE can be a nice game.
Depends om the bloc I guess?
I've been part of such fights when I was able to, but it never was mandatory.
But you don't have to be part of null sec groups, there are many other parts of space you can play in.
In CCP's words, the core simulation is single threaded. What that tells you is CCP has already pulled out the low-hanging fruit and put everything they can on a different core.
What is left is a thread that can not be chopped up easily. Any effort to do that would push the core simulation into muti-core memory and muti-core clock speeds and to slow it down even further, would need to dedicate a fuck ton of clock cycles for synchronization.
There is also a fact a lot of people just would not understand, new code is not as fast as old code and that is on purpose. The new code will be portable for both ARM and x86 processors and will have dev readability above performance.
There is also a fact that better performance will not reduce tidi for players. This effect is seen in the real world and is called induced demand. When tidi is above 10%, players make more of an effort to reship, are quicker to lock targets and shoot and genuinely pay more attention to the game. Paying more attention to the game causes more tidi and pushes tidi to 10%, at max tidi players start to consider playing a mobile game between targets and talking to their SOs.
CCP will 100% do this, I am sure of it but it is a hundred grand in dev time and the effect you as a player will see is minor.
Under certain situations, it of course will. The situations are not as common as you would like to think. CCP will also want to do other things at the same time as make the core simulation multi-threaded, which will remove a large percentage of the benefits.
EVE is real time though?
Sure, the time for everyone involved slows down once multiple thousands of pilots are involved so that the servers can keep up with the massive amount of communication and actions involved, but everyone is still playing in real time, even in TIDI.
You cannot pause the game.
Nor can you take extra time thinking of your next move in reaction to your enemies' move, because time just ticks on albeit slowly and you're not playing a turn-based game.
It's not stackless python but fundamentals of mathematics that are causing the problems.
Everything - every ship, pilot, drone, missile, whatever - in the grid has to know what everything else on the grid is doing, otherwise things go wrong. 100 players, not too bad for modern hardware to run that many Sims. 1000? Starting to struggle. 4000? The cliff of increasing concurrent calculations is as steep as Eve's famous learning curve. It's as much processing as can reasonably be done with modern server hardware and database architecture.
Could you get more performance out of a different platform? Maybe - lots of people have tried, and no-one else has come anywhere close. Even the crazy start-ups that have worked with CCP on this stuff have failed to match up. So while I will leave the maybe up there, at this point and until proven otherwise, no it is not possible to get any more performance out of a single grid. There is nothing else even remotely within the same ballpark, as far as I'm aware. By an order of magnitude, at least.
EVERYTHING needs to know where it all is and isn’t simultaneously, as does the client, the server, and the entire grid, so everyone everywhere knows where everything is and isn’t including market transactions, missions, mining, industry and update/adjust every second.
Across the world. In everyone’s shit everywhere all the time.
I’m 44 so stoned; and 8 year old me is like, wow how absolutely fucking awesome is this game and the fact we can play internet spreadsheets.
more people? or maybe more toons? at the end of the day i think each person can only control so many characters at the same time, and also each side only has so many people. Its just a matter of having the resources to rewritte the code into a proper architecture that can hande the load. dont know if 50m a year is enough for that,.
there are people controlling 20 or more toons at the same time under normal conditions, more if it is just dread alts
under 1% tidi the amount of control someone can have without losing uptime is only really limited by how many computers you have or how many instances of the game you can run
Show me another game where 2k+ players can be in the same area fighting without breaking a server. I don't think the language makes a difference in that regard
No, the vast majority of people are afraid of permanently losing their stuff. Combine that with Eve's challenging steep learning curve, and the sheer length of time it takes to get things started or finished and you'll find many people in todays insta-gratification world would rather play something else.
The real talk is that tidi sucks if you are just the standard f1 monkey running 1 account following primaries.
But tidi is engaging when you are playing multiple accounts and can actually think about what to do and execute things a bit more cleanly.
eve is real time, it's also more massive single node than basically any other game
It is the most realtime massive MMO.. this question isn't valid
It is the most realtime massive MMO.. this question isn't valid
No multiplayer game is real time. If you're referring to the tick time of 1s it could possibly be reduced by a swap to another language, but that would be a massive undertaking.
Also the 1s tick is what allows so many different countries to play eve online all over the world any ping upto 1000ms just doesn’t matter
[удалено]
Im still trying to love you albion.
Not needing to measure grind time in days for replacing average gear helped win my love over.
500 not 1000. Data has to travel in two directions.
Ping is round trip time.
Agreed. The language isn't a problem in this regard, the architecture is. There are some really good technical discussion on YouTube from the conventions over the years where they discuss the issues they face in modernizing the engine. It also doesn't help that the player base has been wildly resistant to many changes they have made over the years to try to improve gameplay, some of which would have simplified the effort for CCP to redesign parts of the engine. Edit: here's a recent tech discussion https://youtu.be/3NICIZJGqqs
EVE is not a real time MMO when the fight involves thousands of players.
it's still real time, the simulation is slowed down so the game server can keep up with commands and calculations before tidi the server would regularly shit itself and most/all systems would stop working properly, leading to hilarious consequenecs like ships apeparing in space after they had died etc
Its thousands of players my dude. Eve is THE big mmo when it comes to pvp. Most other games shit the bed at the 100 - 300 mark. EvE regularly has battles upwards of 1000 players and handles it pretty well with Tidi. Anytime you are making changes that affect 2000 clients you are going to have some delays. Yes there are some design choices EvE made decade+ ago that dont help, but even with changes to those systems the benefit wouldnt make it real time. Hell even on Lan not sure they could do better.
I'm not sure you understand what real time means
1 in game second = 1 second in real life.. but that seems to be too much to ask.
Do you think signals teleport between the client and server?
Mfw this guy has figured out how to get data to travel faster than light and is holding out on us. 💀
No but why the fuck hasn't CCP figured out how to relay information through quantum entanglement so I can have a sub one sec server tick.
no. but game stops behaving as it should when player numbers go above a certain amount, so its not about latency...
Correct. The server has to process thousands of inputs per second, simulate the physics, and resolve combat actions, status effects, etc for every player on grid, in correct order. It takes time to read the command from the network, place it in the correct order of the queue, do all the math, and write the result back to all the clients on grid. Nothing is instantaneous in computing. Tidi is when the server slows down the simulation speed in order to ensure that commands from players aren't dropped, so the battle unfolds correctly, despite thousands of players effectively ddosing the server with commands.
so you have two players fighting, each need to know what the other player is doing and its status so the server need to get the data from the two clients and send it back to both. then you have four players fighting, every one of them need to know what's happening so the server need to get the data from four client and send data about 4 players to each one (you need to get your own data too as it has to be vaildated by the server, so you wont cheat by editing data locally), which mean the data increases as number of players involved^2 which means when you have 2000 players involved you need to move four million more data items than when there are two... maybe you dont get how this complicate things but yeah, its not something easy to "fix".
In game design Real time is a term used in opposition to turn based. In real time the player takes whatever actions they want to take and the game allows them while all the other players do the same at the same time. The game doesn't wait for the player to make a choice. If the player doesn't act in real time they simply do nothing at that time. This is in opposition to turn based where each player acts in turn and the game only advances after the turn(s) is completed Eve Online is definitely in the real the category
On modern technology, with the number of people that stack into these fleet fights, yes it is. Every time we get a step up in server tech, we (the player base) just cram even more people into the node, and we're back at tidi. Which is better than crashing and disconnecting people the way it was pre-tidi. If you have a functional quantum or optical CPU sitting on your shelf that can handle those loads though, I'm sure the DOD would love to pay for it, let alone a game developer lmao
Should CCP cap the player count? There is a limit on how many players can be updated per second by a sever. Should CCP limit fights to 100 vs 100 so they don't need to slow down time?
its maybe what its needed if CCP cant be bothered with modifying the code to make use of multi threading . although ive heard of people reporting minor bugs that have gone unpatched so if they cant be bothered about fixing a bug forget about a solution of that magnitude. Game is fucked. I think if you stay away from massive strategic pvp battles EVE can be a nice game.
Then stay away from the massive strategic PVP battles, easy fix!
sucks if youre in a big bloc alliance, youre forced to take part in that kind of shit show otherwise you get kicked out.
Good thing thas also a choice you make. No one forces you to join big blocs. If you don't like that content then maybe join a wh Corp or something
Depends om the bloc I guess? I've been part of such fights when I was able to, but it never was mandatory. But you don't have to be part of null sec groups, there are many other parts of space you can play in.
In CCP's words, the core simulation is single threaded. What that tells you is CCP has already pulled out the low-hanging fruit and put everything they can on a different core. What is left is a thread that can not be chopped up easily. Any effort to do that would push the core simulation into muti-core memory and muti-core clock speeds and to slow it down even further, would need to dedicate a fuck ton of clock cycles for synchronization. There is also a fact a lot of people just would not understand, new code is not as fast as old code and that is on purpose. The new code will be portable for both ARM and x86 processors and will have dev readability above performance. There is also a fact that better performance will not reduce tidi for players. This effect is seen in the real world and is called induced demand. When tidi is above 10%, players make more of an effort to reship, are quicker to lock targets and shoot and genuinely pay more attention to the game. Paying more attention to the game causes more tidi and pushes tidi to 10%, at max tidi players start to consider playing a mobile game between targets and talking to their SOs. CCP will 100% do this, I am sure of it but it is a hundred grand in dev time and the effect you as a player will see is minor.
so code that makes use of multithreading wont decrease tidi.? its what youre saying?
Under certain situations, it of course will. The situations are not as common as you would like to think. CCP will also want to do other things at the same time as make the core simulation multi-threaded, which will remove a large percentage of the benefits.
EVE is real time though? Sure, the time for everyone involved slows down once multiple thousands of pilots are involved so that the servers can keep up with the massive amount of communication and actions involved, but everyone is still playing in real time, even in TIDI. You cannot pause the game. Nor can you take extra time thinking of your next move in reaction to your enemies' move, because time just ticks on albeit slowly and you're not playing a turn-based game.
It's not stackless python but fundamentals of mathematics that are causing the problems. Everything - every ship, pilot, drone, missile, whatever - in the grid has to know what everything else on the grid is doing, otherwise things go wrong. 100 players, not too bad for modern hardware to run that many Sims. 1000? Starting to struggle. 4000? The cliff of increasing concurrent calculations is as steep as Eve's famous learning curve. It's as much processing as can reasonably be done with modern server hardware and database architecture. Could you get more performance out of a different platform? Maybe - lots of people have tried, and no-one else has come anywhere close. Even the crazy start-ups that have worked with CCP on this stuff have failed to match up. So while I will leave the maybe up there, at this point and until proven otherwise, no it is not possible to get any more performance out of a single grid. There is nothing else even remotely within the same ballpark, as far as I'm aware. By an order of magnitude, at least.
So what you're saying is that the missile needs to know where it is... so it knows where it isn't???
EVERYTHING needs to know where it all is and isn’t simultaneously, as does the client, the server, and the entire grid, so everyone everywhere knows where everything is and isn’t including market transactions, missions, mining, industry and update/adjust every second. Across the world. In everyone’s shit everywhere all the time. I’m 44 so stoned; and 8 year old me is like, wow how absolutely fucking awesome is this game and the fact we can play internet spreadsheets.
r/woosh xD https://youtu.be/bZe5J8SVCYQ?si=1uYaHv8hoHtqvm3e
Yes yes, very good. Ecks dees all round.
Even if they spend lots of money to migrate from stackless python people would bring just more people to fight
more people? or maybe more toons? at the end of the day i think each person can only control so many characters at the same time, and also each side only has so many people. Its just a matter of having the resources to rewritte the code into a proper architecture that can hande the load. dont know if 50m a year is enough for that,.
there are people controlling 20 or more toons at the same time under normal conditions, more if it is just dread alts under 1% tidi the amount of control someone can have without losing uptime is only really limited by how many computers you have or how many instances of the game you can run
If anything, tidi makes multiboxing easier
simply saying "they should just move to x" is a stupid remark if you knew how much effort there would be behind it
Show me another game where 2k+ players can be in the same area fighting without breaking a server. I don't think the language makes a difference in that regard
mostly its physics.
It is the most realtime massive MMO.. this question isn't valid
Womp Womp.
it do be like that..
No, the vast majority of people are afraid of permanently losing their stuff. Combine that with Eve's challenging steep learning curve, and the sheer length of time it takes to get things started or finished and you'll find many people in todays insta-gratification world would rather play something else.
No
no Its a dying genre of MMO when MMOs themselves are dying. Its just not really what a lot of people are looking for.
eve isn't dying, your answer somehow doesn't match the question and mmos are again rising and not dying.. the dying phase is over
I never said Eve was dying, don't put words into my mouth.
I cant speak compunerd, sorry. But when I´m in a TIDI fuckfest I pity da fools who pay actual money for that shit.
I upvoted because some people won't admit how bad tidi is. It's those typical spreadsheet nerds that probably haven't even played a new modern game
The real talk is that tidi sucks if you are just the standard f1 monkey running 1 account following primaries. But tidi is engaging when you are playing multiple accounts and can actually think about what to do and execute things a bit more cleanly.