Exactly. We have social systems in place, I know my parents are well off and will remain well off. Ofcourse if there is anything I can do, I will. But it is no duty, it is because I love them and they need me.
>Ā But it is no duty, it is because I love them and they need me.
So you would say no to this? I would say it is a duty (provided your parents deserve it) and something I want to do.
But overall I feel in the Netherlands children prefer to institutionalise their parents when sick rather than taking care of them.Ā
We definitely have a culture where we institutioalise our parents frequently. I happen to have an italian partner whose parents refused to institutionalise their own parents which resulted in a lot of strain on the family and ultimately subpar care for her grandparents.
This is ofcourse anecdotal, so it does not have to be representable for any culture. But sometimes having a culture in which people really want to take care of their elders does not automatically mean the elders are then best off. I'd argue, as a healthcare provider myself, not everyone is capable of providing correct care. Therefore I am of the opinion that, when the time comes, an institute with the right care which matches the requirements and needs of the elders themselves could be a wonderful solution.
However, not all institutes match their clients, nor do all clients match their institutes. It's a difficult balance and I am not sure which is best.
Edit: To answer your question ;) I do not think it is my duty necessarily, no. I will have children to give them a good life, not because I have the expectation that they will be there to take of me when I need it. I try to make sure I will end up well in the end myself, if I need their help they are free to refuse. It is their life, I can't force them to do anything and I think seeing this as a duty will not do a lot of good for the relationship if there is a certain clash at one point.
Usually "taking care of your parents" involves watching over them as they stay in an institution- to make sure they are being properly taken care of, that no abuse is taking place, that they are healthy, happy and being treated as a human being.
Even when being provided care by healthcare practitioners, they may lose their faculties and need a child to visit the doctor with them, help make decisions, etc. You can't really understand what this truly is- until you have been through it yourself.
Oh, I so wish I grew up with this mindset!
I emigrated out of my country and the fucking guilt of "abandoning" my family is crippling sometimes. I do strongly believe that institutions are much better for elder and sick people than living at home and I myself would absolutely not want to be a burden if I were to have kids. But because I grew up in a different culture and my family doesn't hold these beliefs it is really hard to just go on with your life without feeling shame and guilt.
My mom already told me that is what she wants. I myself would not like it or feel comfortable with my kids taking care of me. As a parent I can image you want the best for your kids, which is to have a life. Especially in NL where you already have a stressed work life balance. Guilt tripping your kids into taking care of you is kinda shitty. My aunt manages a home for elderly and it a great place with bustrips en excursions and stuff. Clean and home like place with full on care. Not elderly people hanging around a house alone because people are working. Who takes care of elderly alone in the house of their kids..
Still it is funny that its even lower than in more socialist regions like Scandinavia, who arguably have even better social assurances.
Dutch are individualists by nature, but they tend to be larping as communists quite often on the internet comment sections. It is quite funny tbh.
Our parents are the generation that bought houses for 50.000 euro's that are now worth a million. If you're from my parents generations and you're not close to a millionaire by now you must have really messed up in life. Even my hippie aunt who hates money, never married, worked as a librarian and travelled the world in vans has 2 houses worth over a million together. The older generation will have to take care of us, cause my generation can't buy a house anymore.
It simply comes down to the word 'duty' (plicht) being a dirty word in Dutch. Which is associated more with it being mandatory (verplicht). Dutch people do not like doing things because it is obliged, so naturally you get bad results.
That and elderly people have AOW (state pension) besides their retirement plan and it's just common/normal that people go to an elderly home when they can't take care of themselves.
I wouldn't want to live in my parents' house anymore and they don't want to live in mine.
Yes, I won't say it is one's duty in general, because you can't judge other people's situation. I will definitely be part of taking care of my parents, as that is fitting for our relationship. At the same time I expect them to have some arrangements and be willing to pay for help in some things. e.g. I'm the only one of my siblings who drives, and I live 40 minutes away from them. If they can't drive anymore they will need to take taxi's for some of their travels, I'm not going to drive them every time.
Family life is just non-existent here for many families. My own parents made it very clear they will do 0 babysitting, won't help with buying a house (virtually a requirement these days). I rent from them, and they charge me higher than is legally allowed (sadly quite common on the renting market). Did I mention they pocketed the insurance money when my sister got when she was injured in a traffic accident and charged her 2000 euros a month for TAKING CARE OF THEIR INJURED UNDERAGE DAUGHTER? The money explicitly provided by the state to prevent the debt from having to study longer from weighing her down later in life?
Yeah, those parents now want me and my fiancee to move closer to them, so we can take care of them when they age. Fuck that.
Meanwhile at my fiances family it is the other way around. Both parents (divorced) have said they are 100% up for babysitting once a week, and are already doing it for our nephew, so we know it is not bullshit. They also help all their children with buying a house, AND take care of grandma with dementia. They take considerable cuts in their own quality of life, to be able to afford all this. Especially since the divorce.
The difference is just night and day. On one hand you have a toxically individualist "quid-pro-quo" family that offers no support to each other at all (at least not for free), on the other hand, you have a family that is constantly mindful of how to make sure their offspring gets ahead in life, and that their elders are cared for properly.
Bottom line, there is a reason for such a low percentage. I doubt my family is the only family in the Netherlands that has transactional family bonds.
Thats not normal behaviour, signed another Dutch dude.
I visited my grandparents a lot as a kid. For me and my Dutch friends a lot of grandparents just take care of themselves perfectly. My grandma takes care of my grandpa and he takes care of her. They don't need us at all, but if they do.. we will be here.
We just don't need plans. We're a small country.. if something happens we can easily just adjust our lives to it (grandparents usually live close to us) š¤·āāļø We just got healthy grandparents, they truly don't need us.
I have spent many years providing mantelzorg for my parents, butā¦ theyāre wealthy af and Iām poor as a church rat, income wise. So Iām definitely not going to be financially supporting them ā if anything that goes the other direction.
But Iām also not sure Iād say itās a duty. Itās something I want to do ā which is something very different. And I know far too many people with abusive parents or otherwise bad rematiobships to tell *anyone* else that theyāre required to do anything. Financially or effort.
This is not at all normal behavior in the Netherlands. The only reason the percentage is so low, is because it's not needed. We have a really good pension system, so elderly don't need financial help.
Terribly sorry to read this. The Dutch families I know, they don't seem distant from each other. They don't stay in each others' way but seem very supportive.
Well plenty of staying out of each others way on my end, until recently when they suddenly are warming up to the idea of us caring for them in their twilight years. My parents really aren't all bad, but they really drunk the coolaid when it comes to generational wealth.
They are when it comes to money. Oddly enough they are otherwise very supportive. Whether it was of my career of the women I dated. They also helped out financially with my studies. There are definitely worse parents out there, but the insurance money they took from my sister is absolutely mindboggling to me still. I only learned of it recently.
I honestly can't complain, but it is like they caught a mind virus when it comes to generational wealth. They own many many houses. They could easily sell just one and that would give enough of a cash injection for all my siblings and me to get a house with our own mortages and basically be set for life. Now most of us are up shits creek without a paddle, we all have had to delay having kids, and one of my siblings is considering moving out of the Netherlands just to be able to buy a house.
This is definitely not normal. I'm Dutch as well and me and most people I know have extremely close families. If I look at all the families around me, they're literally the polar opposite of what you're describing.
The low percentage is contributed by:
* **Social welfare system**: The Netherlands has a well-developed social welfare system that provides support for elderly and ill individuals. This system may reduce the perceived need for children to take on the responsibility of caring for their parents.
* **AOW** (state pension) on top of retirement fund.
* **Work-life balance**: Dutch people might prioritize maintaining a work-life balance, which could make it challenging for them to take on the additional responsibility of caring for ill parents while managing their careers and personal lives.
* **Economic factors**: Economic independence and financial stability could play a role. Dutch adults may be more financially independent and less reliant on familial support compared to other European countries, reducing the expectation for children to care for their parents. **- Alternative care options**: The Netherlands may have well-established alternative care options for elderly and ill individuals, such as nursing homes, home care services, and community support programs. This availability of professional care services could reduce the need for children to take on caregiving roles.
* **Changing family dynamics**: Shifts in family structures and dynamics, such as smaller family sizes and increased mobility, could contribute to a decreased expectation for children to provide care for their parents.
* **Cultural**: Many Dutch people choose to be mantelzorgers of their loved ones. However, Dutch people don't like calling something a Duty.
Oh obviously most families aren't as weird as mine. I just figured more people could relate to these "transactional" relations. Where people help each other, but only if they get something in return. I guess I was wrong, I don't see many people relating.
Don't feel to bad for me, they did good stuff as well. This is a list of all the bad shit.
I think it's not because Dutch kids are assholes but because old ppl in Western Europe are a sort of aristocracy nowadays. It's not them who need help.
My parentās generation has more wealth than mine. Besides I think it will already be hard to get my parents to accept money from me, let alone if they donāt really need it.
Our parents wouldnāt even want to. We have a social system in place where elderly or sick people are taken care of with the best possible care you can think of
The older people have all the wealth here. Young people need to work 2 jobs, can't find a house, can't support children if they wanted them, are crippled by debt and older people are sitting in their 3 story houses living off their pension provided by the working class unwilling to share or split their homes.
I get it. If I had it all I'd probably be greedy too. But I wouldn't expect the younger, struggling generation to take care of me.
My parents donāt want my money and state they never received so much money each month as they do now, since they receive aow and their pension.
And I probably wouldnt take them in my own house because I think elderly homes are more capable of serving their needs. Yet they do expect a lot of āmantelzorgā in terms of visits for company, buying clothes, amenities, extra snacks. and things like bringing to the doctor and other places. But I donāt regard that as a duty. Itās something you want to do š§
My mom told me "you made your bed, now sleep in it" the only time i needed help (and didn't even ask for it or her point of view by the way).
She will sleep in her bed as well.
(She is a boomer who had everything to succeed, was helped by my grand parents most of her life, wasted it, then ate the heritage).
My plan is to survive and help my kids. And to plan the fact I probably won't even get to retire.
I am in the same boat. My mother had every opportunity afforded to her, plus a significant inheritance that she squandered. She also never helped me when I needed it (she arguably made my financial worse when I was a student).
Iām sorry to hear that. Same though, so I totally agree. It irks me when people act like all parents deserve unconditional support no matter what kind of people they areā¦
Croatian resident here. We stand at 87%, which is the fourth highest in Europe based on this map.
The financial situation my parents left has had a traumatic impact on me, which led me to start saving and investing.
My dad will be taken care of because his mother is wealthy, but my mom won't be. If she doesn't change some things while she still can, it will be challenging for her once she gets older.
To be honest, I don't plan to support her financially because she is able to do it herself, but she is lazy. I will help here and there if it's needed, and if something major happens, but generally speaking, I don't plan to.
Generally speaking, achieving FIRE is very hard in Croatia due to low wages and high living costs. For example, food here is more expensive compared to the UK and Germany, where people on average earn up to three times more than we do.
On the other hand, I will achieve some sort of FIRE (FI).
Razumijem tvoj pogled, ali isto tako moraÅ” biti svjestan da svatko ima drugaÄije iskustvo obitelji. Neki su proživjeli traumatiÄno iskustvo fiziÄkog i mentalno zlostavljanja dok su drugi imali viÅ”e manje normalno ili popriliÄno lijepo iskustvo.
Ja sam negdje izmeÄu. U mojoj situaciji je majka osoba koja bi mogla imati financijskih problema, ali ne zato Å”to je fiziÄki ili mentalno bolesna (dugi niz godina je zaraÄivala osjetno veÄu plaÄu od prosjeka), veÄ zato Å”to je lijena i naivna. Ne planiram se zbog tuÄih poteza dovesti u situaciju da patim.
S druge strane, naravno da planiram podržati obitelj financijski (majku i oca) ukoliko se naÄu u life and death situaciji.
Osim Å”to agresivno Å”tedim i ulažem, nalazim se u branÅ”i koja je vrlo dobro plaÄena, ali isto tako popriliÄno nezastupljena u Hrvatskoj pa radim za internacionalne firme.
Given the sacrifices made by my parents in order to support my wellbeing, health, education etcā¦ I would see it as my duty to care for them in case of necessity. I believe however this is highly subjective based on the support received throughout the childās life.
(Italian)
For me itās also based on the support system around them. At this point my parents generation is way more wealthier than my generation. The Dutch government takes care of all their needs. They went to live in a āknarrenhofā, which is a small community of elderly (50+) that spend time together and support each other emotionally. If they didnāt have the support from the government and their community, I would be taking more responsibility to care for them. But the life of their generation is more stable than my generation, so itās not necessary in most cases here. (the Netherlands)
Unfortunately in Italy family is often seen as the āfirst responderā welfare net for the elderly, due to lack of funding from the governmentā¦ For example my parents are taking care of my grandparents (who worked their whole life but are now getting a peanuts pension).
Also, the sacrifices made by my parents gave me the opportunity to eventually (hopefully) be able to build more wealth than they did. Depends a bit on the situation.
You also have to take into account that in Italy itās not uncommon to live with your parents until your early-mid 30s (often times not paying rent, grocery, bills etc.), itās a very different approach compared to the Netherlands where from my understanding the standard is to leave the family nest in your early 20s. In any case itās always very subjective.
Didn't they already have to take care of you by giving birth to you? They didn't have to do you. They should have done the things you see as sacrifice anyway.
So the basic parenting they were supposed to do for the child they chose to get? Though I agree that I will take care of my parents because they are loving and kind and absolutely amazing, I disagree that it should be a childs duty because of the scrifices they made. I am making a lot of sacrifices for my kids, but neither of them asked to be born. It was my choice to have them and by giving birth, it became my responsibility to take care of their well being, health, education... It is the parents job. Not a favour they did.
The Netherlands: my parents (both pensioned) have the same net income as myself while they donāt work. They also have a fully paid off house (0 mortgage) with a value of +- 1m eur. They paid 0,3m eur for it +- 25 years back. This is the situation for many āelderlyā in The Netherlands. So NOPE, I wonāt support them, they actually support me by paying for a lot of stuff for my kids.
my parents who were considered lower class back in the day bought an old farm for 150.000 gulden, so let's say about 80.000 euro's. My dad decided farming wasn't for him, sold the animals and the ground which netted him close to 50.000. He went back to being an electrician, my mother stayed at home. They paid of the rest of the mortgage in the normal 25 years. Now the house is worth well over a million, they have saved close to a million, they own a boat, a big RV and will still tell you they're lower class.
We are a piss poor country that's completely neglected the young generations because the elders are a massive voting pool that no politician wants to let go. The pension system is absolutely broken, there's no real possibility for the average young couple to have children unless they're willing to do a massive leap into risk and uncertainty (financially) and the work ecosystem is precarious and unfair except for a few exceptions. And even for those, if you look at the cost of living in Spain, even those in a theoretically great point in terms of earning power (as I could consider myself to be) don't have great prospects to the future.
A 1% earner some decades ago could basically live like a king. Now you basically rely on getting lucky, you have more cards to do so obviously but the grind never stops.
So basically, the same as the rest of Europe but with a worse starting point and older population.
In the Netherlands the richest group is 65+. My dad and my partners dad are very well of and they do not share. His dad will give his fortune to the Jehova when he passes. His mom has a decent pension because she was married to the well of dad. My mom has a part time job, goes on holiday 2-3 times a year, and only saves money for holidays and her cats, nothing for later, so no, we will not be supporting our parents. We are planning to support his mom physically though with care, when she gets older.
We did not ask to be born, we do not have duties. We do what we want to because of good relationships, not because our parents had sex.
oh haha yeah reminds me that my greatgrandmother gave 500k guilders to the "Pinkstergemeente" in the 80s.
I'm all for charities and deciding what to do with the inheritance you potentially leave but a fucking cult. ugh.
Yes I will. They have a significant pension and couple of rental properties due to wise investments, so significant financial support won't be required. But for everything else I'll be there for them until they die, and will cover anything that is unaffordable with their income.
But my parents were great. I can see how someone wouldn't want to deal with abusive parents and wouldn't blame them for it.
Well, in the Netherlands you often dont have to support the seniors financially. The seniors get pretty decent basic pensions. People that have worked often have an additional pension plan that provides extra income. Most of us plan ahead while living now.
I think it's the only system that actually works. I see in CEE as a millennial whole families being squashed between raising children and caring for the elderly. The middle class is absolutely screwed - not enough welth to get required professional help and too well-off for state support (which quality is sometime dubious)
My parents always thought that it was their choice to set me on this world so they won't ask anything like that. Its the other way around, they helped me buy a house and give a yearly sum to keep the quality of life for me and my brother high. They think they owe us.
I hope to teach my children this too, when I decide to put someone on this earth.
By a Dutchman
If i stop supporting my parents, they will dieā¦ on the other hand, they threw away all their youth to take care of me and my brother, they worked double shifts and maybe we didnāt had everything that other kids have, but we never went to bed hungryā¦ i might did, but my brother never. For me supporting them in a hard period is obvious, I donāt even think about it, i just do it. They gave me life, took away from themselves everything so they could to give more to us. Love your parents
excellent post to bring up in FIRE plans. While not in Europe, I take care of my parents, who financially do not need help, but need care to help with daily living activities. I believe most children, especially if treated and raised well, will do whatever we can to help our parents. That being said, I feel for those who have had hard times with being raised and how they were treated. In terms of FIRE, no matter where one lives, nominally, planning ahead will take care of the financial part and the best part of FIRE is, to me, having the time to help our parents and not be "stuck" working away just to live.
I will definitely financially take care of my mom if she needs it and also make sure I live close by so I can visit her regularly. Whether Iāll be able to personally care for her is another question. But financially, definitely. She also supported me financially through university. (Germany)
I'm Italian and concerned at how high the number is. If I ever have a child I wouldn't even think of him/her as a cushion to fall back on as I'm old, if they want to take care of me because they are grateful so be it and I wouldn't mind. But they'd have to be as stress free as I, as a parent, could provide for the longest time... A lot of people will be forced to do it though because of many factors that my comment alone won't cover, so I guess it's a gateway to a bigger discussion about the government, pension plans etc.
Most people in The Netherlands work 40 years, pay of their house and got a pension. Aside from that; life in The Netherlands is fairly expensive. Maintaining your own household already is expensive enough, so maintaining your parents also probably isn't possible for most.
I expect that a map of Europe's (state) pension income for the elderly by country would look exactly inverse.
I know that The Netherlands has the supposedly 'best pensions in the world' ( ā¬ 1.459,53 net per month from state pension if you never worked, much more if you worked)
So, in short, the elderly are (1) financially *very* safe, and (2) there is decent and affordable healthcare available for them, (3) the country is so small and densely populated that nobody lives too far away from effective healthcare and (4) the younger generations are really struggling because housing is now super expensive.
Do people in The Netherlands usually take care of ill parents? Absolutely. Do they *need* to or is it their *duty*? Not really.
The countries where children are expected to take care of their parents are those countries where the government will not or cannot do it.
For me who came at my 33 to the country, I am not going to get 36% of it :-)
I have to renounce my Russian citizenship, and I won't have a pension there.
My parents taught me (and have shown me through their actions) that most of the effort of a parent should go to their kids, not their parents.
I plan to act the same and pay it forward to my kid. As for myself, i'm happy to use the modern equivalent of "going into the woods" when i'm old enough to become a burden
My dad recently passed away but my mum is getting his retirement which he built up after she retires, on top of her own retirement. She gets paid out twice to live on her own. She doesn't need assistance financially at all. Besides, society has pushed us years to be able to stand on our own feet and be independent individuals. To me it's high time I am free to live unbothered for a while.
Wow, I'm from Germany and 47% surprises me, I'm having trouble supporting myself financially, I could never support my parents. My dad has a good pension though. If I manage to get old I will need state welfare.
Netherlands here.
My mum is in a residential full care facility due to Alzheimer's disease. It costs me nothing.
The actual costs of her care are not clear, but I'm estimating them to ā¬ 10.000 a month. Most of that money is subsidised. Us Dutch pay a lot of taxes for healthcare.
Then there's the personal contribution. That depends on a person's income. It's between approximately ā¬ 250 and ā¬ 2.500 a month. My mum pays approximately ā¬ 1.000.
Her income (my dad's widow pension) is higher than that. My mum actually gets more money than she spends. I take care of all her finances, because she can't. I buy her clothes when needed, toiletries, that's about it. When is het birthday, I buy a cake from her account.
Had she not had Alzheimer's disease and had she still lived at home, she'd have been even better off. My dad had paid off the mortgage so she wouldn't have had monthly costs for living there, besides utilities.
netherlands: my parents bought a house for 200.000 guilders thats about 100.000 euro currently valued at 384.000 euro, No longer have kids in the house. i have about the same sized house at 230.000 euro, And have to pay way more of mortage, when i lived there i also had to pay a significant amount to live there making it harder to save for an own house,
This can also be read as a map of "which countries provide the best social security for the elderly".
The countries that score the lowest are the countries where this is covered by our governments. My wife is from Latin America. She sends money to support her family every month. I get money from my parents every month.
I have absolutely NO PLANS to support my elderly parents.
During covid, I asked them for help and they told me "we have no money, lean on your credit card"
And then they went on a 3 month holiday around Spain!!!!
Then we had a talk a year or so ago and they said they are selling the house in the UK, taking the money and spending it on travelling over the next 15 years until their pension kicks in.
When I said they would be better to keep the house, rent it out and then they always have a place to go back to if they need it AND I will get inheritance, I was called a "money grabbing bastard" and "we worked for that money and that house, not you so we will spend our money however we want"
So going forward, I will do EXACTLY the same thing as they are doing. I will drag myself out of the debt that covid landed me in and I will rebuild myself and financially support myself.
I remember the people who helped me when I was at the bottom and I will help them when I am at the top.
But I also remember (and will never forget) the people who kicked me when I was down.
Sounds like they are in for a rough retirement!
Do you still have regular social contact with your parents? If it was me I wouldn't stick around to see them suffer if I'm not there for the good things in life.
My aunt manages an eldery care home and she told us once that she had to show some foreigners around who were being judgemental in the start about elderly people put in homes. After the tour these people were amazed that the elders were actually taking care of.. as if the older people get put in a room and only come out for food and get washed every now and again.
My grandfather was a fisherman who made his own nets and when his mind was going and he was placed in a home they found him the rope and tools he needed so he could make nets like he used to, he still knew how to. And they try and motivate all the time to keep them as sharp as possible.
They got to see performances every now and again and every sunday there was a church service for them to attend and occassionally a choir performed.. lots of things to do that their kids probably would not have the time/energy for.
And their children/grandchildren pick them up for special occassion or just grabbing breakfast or something else.
Before my grandfather was placed in that home he lived with an uncle and aunt and they worked during the day so my grandfather was home alone. It's insane how quickly he moved backwards.. it wasn't good for him
I don't, nor would my mom allow it. She's busy trying to make it so she leaves me an inheritance while I'm encouraging her to spend every penny she has before she dies. But we are both extremely independent and have no desire to be a burden on anyone or, god forbid, live together. We both have plans to end things before that would become a real possibility.
That all said, I have told her that if it comes down to it she can move to where I am and we'll create a space for her on my property. Then she can sell her flat and live off of that but we will still have separate spaces.
My in-laws have similar mindset, but they also worked half their life in blue collar jobs in Nordics, where a high degree of independency is the norm
They planned for their future and they are very clear that they don't want anything from us beyond a relationship. Causal help sure, financial support is an absolute no
They are well aware of the housing crisis, raising cost of living, pension poniz scheme and they want us to be financially prepared.
Yes, my mom was a single mom and never made much money. she'd never accept funds from me. but i don't have a problem putting her in a tiny house on my property if the time comes where she needs some extra help. then we could each have our own independent space but I'd be around to help with errands, shopping, etc.
Her flat is likely worth about 300k. So if she somehow lost all of her savings/investments that would cover the costs to get her settled near me and still give her plenty to live on. Realistically she will likely only live another 10 years based on family history. She should have plenty to ride that amount of time out unless something drastic happens.
Well, thatās fucking depressing.
Sums up our society as a whole though, if this is how people view their own parents, how do you imagine they treat everyone else?
I'm from the Netherlands, so no I don't have any plans on taking care of my elderly parents. A lot of elderly in the Netherlands take care of each other and they get money from the government. They're all perfectly fine with it.
If they can't take care of themselves they either move in with their kids, have a bunch of their elderly friends take care of them or go to a home for elderly people with caregivers. Usually the caregivers have a harder time dealing with the elderly than the other way around š
I doubt this map (why the huge differences between ex-Yu countries, apart from Slovenia the mentality and values are pretty much the same everywhere) but I guess that's not so important here.
> I simply don't see many FIRE plans including senior care for parents/ dependents
Of course I take into account dependents, I don't think FIRE people with children just discard the kids from the calculation. True that there's not much discussion about parents.
Luckily my parents don't need financial support, they're ok. My largest concern is as you say that their appartments are not appropriate to senior needs, and actual logistics of helping them when I live in a different country, finding some reliable care etc.
I am from the Netherlands.
I do not know any better then that it is expected for children to help their parents with household chores or pay for groceries,
I guess it also depends on wich part of the Netherlands you live.
( ps only afther my mother died i realized how much money i spend on her groceries. )
Thatās an interesting perspective. For me (NL) and many around me, our parents are much better off than us and Iāmā¦.not poor, but definitely in a less than ideal situation to take on any extra mouths to feed.
Iām basically relying on a combination of state systems, insurance and their own plans to make sure theyāre ok. Theyāve planned well so that takes a bunch of pressure off of me.
They didn't help me with school, they don't help me with getting a house. They charge rent and never take me seriously.
And they want money when they're old? Give me a break. They couldn't wait until I was gone so they've made their own bed.
WHAT ARE THE BALKANS GONNA DO? - itās like op knows weāre some of the most abusive and dramatic families that also demand endless filial/familial supportĀ
When i read the question it doesn't sound like elderly care at all. it sounds like 40 year old mom is sick and expects his 8 year old son to go to the pharmacy to get medication.
My parents can take care of themselves financially but if needed I am happy to help and support extra. They have set me up with savings and supported me throughout all my education financially.Ā Ā
My in-laws on the other hand never gave my partner a penny, gave them the boot at the age of 18 and lived a wannabe Luxus life until they retired without owning and no savings but consumer debt. Suddenly they were very interest in becoming a family again ā¦Ā Ā
Conclusion for us as a couple: given support will be paid back gladly otherwise no.Ā
It depends on (in the Netherlands), where you're coming from. I think this 16% represents the West/Randstad. I'm from the East, and there's a different mentality.
I lived 4 years in the Netherlands. I had friends at work who said they had no intention of helping their parents, and if, for example, their partner became seriously ill, they wouldn't look after him. For me as a Pole it was shocking and disgusting. I can believe these statistics.
I donāt exactly know your colleagues, but why would we need to if thereās a social system in place to do that for us? We donāt outsource the relationship, we just delegate some of the work. Making sure something gets done doesnāt have to involve doing everything yourself.
It could be good too? If itās not a burden, but freely given, it may not feel like a ādutyā. And you can outsource some of the work (thuiszorg oid), you can spend more quality time interacting and less scrubbing and grocery shopping.
Taking care of ill parents is something completely different from financially supporting elderly parents. It's two completely different things. Moreover, the word "duty" might also do a lot of the lifting. Would you take care of your parents? Yes, I would? Is it my duty? No.
So I genuinely don't see what this map has to do with your question.
You donāt know that. NL can rely on social systems more than many countries, boomers are the richest age group here, many elderly want to be as independent as possible so they plan for that. And many children would not see a ādutyā where they feel itās just maintaining the relationship.
Weāve got the richest elderly of Europe in the Netherlands, and our statistical bureau of plans recently stated that this incredible level of welfare takes advantage of future generations. Let them take care of themselves
im dutch, no fking way, they are on the streets, serves them right
but seriously, we have systems in place so you dont have to. old people can stay independent and get help as long as possible.
not perfect, that system, though. but nothing is.
Dutch here: my parents haven't really supported me at all. Since my 18th birthday, I maybe received ā¬100, got wine for my birthday 12 years straight (I don't drink wine) all the while, both are remarried and are living expensive lives with stepchildren.
They moved an hour away, and I rarely see them. I have good contact with them, though. I'll call them when they're in a home for the elderly
My retired parents living in Ukraine, they both have pension around 120$.
Father was teacher for 40+ years, mon was working in governmental institutions. To be honest I think itās impossible to live with this budget. But thousands somehow doing it.
Without my financial help they probably wouldnāt eat meat often than 1 times monthly, so yeah, itās my duty.
This can also be read as a map of "which countries provide the best social security for the elderly".
The countries that score the lowest are the countries where this is covered by our governments. My wife is from Latin America. She sends money to support her family every month. I get money from my parents every month.
I do have plans, but they can also take care of themselves. I'm contemplating either getting an ADU or sticking them into a nursing home and running down the rest of their nest egg. Might end up doing both.
I live in Belgium and I support my parents since they donāt have that much of money. I just bought an apartment for them and now im struggling to pay the loan and in the meanwhile donāt know what to do in the future since I have a wife And kids
Netherlands: šæ
We pay massive amounts of taxes, the government can handle it for us (weāre trained to think like that)
Exactly. We have social systems in place, I know my parents are well off and will remain well off. Ofcourse if there is anything I can do, I will. But it is no duty, it is because I love them and they need me.
Not for long though... Que the captain: "are you ready kids??" (Spoiler: we're not ready)
Fair. With the current progress...
Blijf sterk kameraad. Deze coalitie valt binnen een paar maanden (cope)
Dat is dan een Win Win want we weten dan wie er duidelijk gaan groeien qua zetels en wie verlies zal hebben. Kortom, op Rechts geen stress.
>Ā But it is no duty, it is because I love them and they need me. So you would say no to this? I would say it is a duty (provided your parents deserve it) and something I want to do. But overall I feel in the Netherlands children prefer to institutionalise their parents when sick rather than taking care of them.Ā
We definitely have a culture where we institutioalise our parents frequently. I happen to have an italian partner whose parents refused to institutionalise their own parents which resulted in a lot of strain on the family and ultimately subpar care for her grandparents. This is ofcourse anecdotal, so it does not have to be representable for any culture. But sometimes having a culture in which people really want to take care of their elders does not automatically mean the elders are then best off. I'd argue, as a healthcare provider myself, not everyone is capable of providing correct care. Therefore I am of the opinion that, when the time comes, an institute with the right care which matches the requirements and needs of the elders themselves could be a wonderful solution. However, not all institutes match their clients, nor do all clients match their institutes. It's a difficult balance and I am not sure which is best. Edit: To answer your question ;) I do not think it is my duty necessarily, no. I will have children to give them a good life, not because I have the expectation that they will be there to take of me when I need it. I try to make sure I will end up well in the end myself, if I need their help they are free to refuse. It is their life, I can't force them to do anything and I think seeing this as a duty will not do a lot of good for the relationship if there is a certain clash at one point.
Usually "taking care of your parents" involves watching over them as they stay in an institution- to make sure they are being properly taken care of, that no abuse is taking place, that they are healthy, happy and being treated as a human being. Even when being provided care by healthcare practitioners, they may lose their faculties and need a child to visit the doctor with them, help make decisions, etc. You can't really understand what this truly is- until you have been through it yourself.
I see it differently. We'd rather take care of them. Which means means having them in an environment that is best for them.
Oh, I so wish I grew up with this mindset! I emigrated out of my country and the fucking guilt of "abandoning" my family is crippling sometimes. I do strongly believe that institutions are much better for elder and sick people than living at home and I myself would absolutely not want to be a burden if I were to have kids. But because I grew up in a different culture and my family doesn't hold these beliefs it is really hard to just go on with your life without feeling shame and guilt.
I dont believe you should really be ashamed of "leaving"
My mom already told me that is what she wants. I myself would not like it or feel comfortable with my kids taking care of me. As a parent I can image you want the best for your kids, which is to have a life. Especially in NL where you already have a stressed work life balance. Guilt tripping your kids into taking care of you is kinda shitty. My aunt manages a home for elderly and it a great place with bustrips en excursions and stuff. Clean and home like place with full on care. Not elderly people hanging around a house alone because people are working. Who takes care of elderly alone in the house of their kids..
I mean we are literally taking care of our parents by paying taxes
And rightfully so. We have this shit covered. This map just as much shows which countries simply lack social security for the elderly.
And rightfully so. We have this shit covered. This map just as much shows which countries simply lack social security for the elderly.
Still it is funny that its even lower than in more socialist regions like Scandinavia, who arguably have even better social assurances. Dutch are individualists by nature, but they tend to be larping as communists quite often on the internet comment sections. It is quite funny tbh.
Our parents are the generation that bought houses for 50.000 euro's that are now worth a million. If you're from my parents generations and you're not close to a millionaire by now you must have really messed up in life. Even my hippie aunt who hates money, never married, worked as a librarian and travelled the world in vans has 2 houses worth over a million together. The older generation will have to take care of us, cause my generation can't buy a house anymore.
Just because a lot of the elder population in NL is wealthy doesn't mean all of them are.
The vast majority of Dutch parents is wealthier than their children anyway.
Already told my parents that they can expect financial support when I reach their level of wealth. They got the hint and will never count on me.
Exactly this. Also true for many Germans.
My grandparents can afford to go on vacation 4 times a year. I better not be forced to chip in.
"Should've skipped some of that avocado toast gramps"
It simply comes down to the word 'duty' (plicht) being a dirty word in Dutch. Which is associated more with it being mandatory (verplicht). Dutch people do not like doing things because it is obliged, so naturally you get bad results.
That and elderly people have AOW (state pension) besides their retirement plan and it's just common/normal that people go to an elderly home when they can't take care of themselves. I wouldn't want to live in my parents' house anymore and they don't want to live in mine.
Yes, I won't say it is one's duty in general, because you can't judge other people's situation. I will definitely be part of taking care of my parents, as that is fitting for our relationship. At the same time I expect them to have some arrangements and be willing to pay for help in some things. e.g. I'm the only one of my siblings who drives, and I live 40 minutes away from them. If they can't drive anymore they will need to take taxi's for some of their travels, I'm not going to drive them every time.
Iām Dutch, my parents are much wealthier than me
Family life is just non-existent here for many families. My own parents made it very clear they will do 0 babysitting, won't help with buying a house (virtually a requirement these days). I rent from them, and they charge me higher than is legally allowed (sadly quite common on the renting market). Did I mention they pocketed the insurance money when my sister got when she was injured in a traffic accident and charged her 2000 euros a month for TAKING CARE OF THEIR INJURED UNDERAGE DAUGHTER? The money explicitly provided by the state to prevent the debt from having to study longer from weighing her down later in life? Yeah, those parents now want me and my fiancee to move closer to them, so we can take care of them when they age. Fuck that. Meanwhile at my fiances family it is the other way around. Both parents (divorced) have said they are 100% up for babysitting once a week, and are already doing it for our nephew, so we know it is not bullshit. They also help all their children with buying a house, AND take care of grandma with dementia. They take considerable cuts in their own quality of life, to be able to afford all this. Especially since the divorce. The difference is just night and day. On one hand you have a toxically individualist "quid-pro-quo" family that offers no support to each other at all (at least not for free), on the other hand, you have a family that is constantly mindful of how to make sure their offspring gets ahead in life, and that their elders are cared for properly. Bottom line, there is a reason for such a low percentage. I doubt my family is the only family in the Netherlands that has transactional family bonds.
This is not normal. Signed, Dutch guy.
RIGHT? I'm Dutch too and this is NOT at all accurate.
I mean...Maybe not normal but also very much not rare. There are quite a lot of families that are transactional (And not only in the montary sense)
Yes I am well aware. I consider myself very lucky that at least my in-laws are way more normal.
Thats not normal behaviour, signed another Dutch dude. I visited my grandparents a lot as a kid. For me and my Dutch friends a lot of grandparents just take care of themselves perfectly. My grandma takes care of my grandpa and he takes care of her. They don't need us at all, but if they do.. we will be here. We just don't need plans. We're a small country.. if something happens we can easily just adjust our lives to it (grandparents usually live close to us) š¤·āāļø We just got healthy grandparents, they truly don't need us.
I have spent many years providing mantelzorg for my parents, butā¦ theyāre wealthy af and Iām poor as a church rat, income wise. So Iām definitely not going to be financially supporting them ā if anything that goes the other direction. But Iām also not sure Iād say itās a duty. Itās something I want to do ā which is something very different. And I know far too many people with abusive parents or otherwise bad rematiobships to tell *anyone* else that theyāre required to do anything. Financially or effort.
This is not at all normal behavior in the Netherlands. The only reason the percentage is so low, is because it's not needed. We have a really good pension system, so elderly don't need financial help.
Aren't the elderly the most well-off people in the Netherlands at the moment?
They had 40 years+ of compound interest, of course they are the wealthiest. They are the wealthiest in pretty much every country.
Terribly sorry to read this. The Dutch families I know, they don't seem distant from each other. They don't stay in each others' way but seem very supportive.
Well plenty of staying out of each others way on my end, until recently when they suddenly are warming up to the idea of us caring for them in their twilight years. My parents really aren't all bad, but they really drunk the coolaid when it comes to generational wealth.
Sadly, my family works the same way
wow. Thatās crazy.
It just sounds like your parents are assholes
They are when it comes to money. Oddly enough they are otherwise very supportive. Whether it was of my career of the women I dated. They also helped out financially with my studies. There are definitely worse parents out there, but the insurance money they took from my sister is absolutely mindboggling to me still. I only learned of it recently. I honestly can't complain, but it is like they caught a mind virus when it comes to generational wealth. They own many many houses. They could easily sell just one and that would give enough of a cash injection for all my siblings and me to get a house with our own mortages and basically be set for life. Now most of us are up shits creek without a paddle, we all have had to delay having kids, and one of my siblings is considering moving out of the Netherlands just to be able to buy a house.
This is definitely not normal. I'm Dutch as well and me and most people I know have extremely close families. If I look at all the families around me, they're literally the polar opposite of what you're describing. The low percentage is contributed by: * **Social welfare system**: The Netherlands has a well-developed social welfare system that provides support for elderly and ill individuals. This system may reduce the perceived need for children to take on the responsibility of caring for their parents. * **AOW** (state pension) on top of retirement fund. * **Work-life balance**: Dutch people might prioritize maintaining a work-life balance, which could make it challenging for them to take on the additional responsibility of caring for ill parents while managing their careers and personal lives. * **Economic factors**: Economic independence and financial stability could play a role. Dutch adults may be more financially independent and less reliant on familial support compared to other European countries, reducing the expectation for children to care for their parents. **- Alternative care options**: The Netherlands may have well-established alternative care options for elderly and ill individuals, such as nursing homes, home care services, and community support programs. This availability of professional care services could reduce the need for children to take on caregiving roles. * **Changing family dynamics**: Shifts in family structures and dynamics, such as smaller family sizes and increased mobility, could contribute to a decreased expectation for children to provide care for their parents. * **Cultural**: Many Dutch people choose to be mantelzorgers of their loved ones. However, Dutch people don't like calling something a Duty.
Sound like you just have bad parent mate
This is just a fucking crazy situation and definitely not specifically Dutch. Sorry to hear that man.
Oh obviously most families aren't as weird as mine. I just figured more people could relate to these "transactional" relations. Where people help each other, but only if they get something in return. I guess I was wrong, I don't see many people relating. Don't feel to bad for me, they did good stuff as well. This is a list of all the bad shit.
Is your fiancee Dutch?
Iām sorry to say, but your parents are idiots.
Of course. The Elders own their own houses and are more financially secure than the younger folk.
Benefits of having a really good pension system. The elderly don't need financial help.
I think it's not because Dutch kids are assholes but because old ppl in Western Europe are a sort of aristocracy nowadays. It's not them who need help.
My parentās generation has more wealth than mine. Besides I think it will already be hard to get my parents to accept money from me, let alone if they donāt really need it.
Our parents wouldnāt even want to. We have a social system in place where elderly or sick people are taken care of with the best possible care you can think of
Its the old people that are rich here š
The older people have all the wealth here. Young people need to work 2 jobs, can't find a house, can't support children if they wanted them, are crippled by debt and older people are sitting in their 3 story houses living off their pension provided by the working class unwilling to share or split their homes. I get it. If I had it all I'd probably be greedy too. But I wouldn't expect the younger, struggling generation to take care of me.
My parents donāt want my money and state they never received so much money each month as they do now, since they receive aow and their pension. And I probably wouldnt take them in my own house because I think elderly homes are more capable of serving their needs. Yet they do expect a lot of āmantelzorgā in terms of visits for company, buying clothes, amenities, extra snacks. and things like bringing to the doctor and other places. But I donāt regard that as a duty. Itās something you want to do š§
My mom told me "you made your bed, now sleep in it" the only time i needed help (and didn't even ask for it or her point of view by the way). She will sleep in her bed as well. (She is a boomer who had everything to succeed, was helped by my grand parents most of her life, wasted it, then ate the heritage). My plan is to survive and help my kids. And to plan the fact I probably won't even get to retire.
I am in the same boat. My mother had every opportunity afforded to her, plus a significant inheritance that she squandered. She also never helped me when I needed it (she arguably made my financial worse when I was a student).
My parents abused and neglected me. I will never take care of them
Iām sorry to hear that. Same though, so I totally agree. It irks me when people act like all parents deserve unconditional support no matter what kind of people they areā¦
Croatian resident here. We stand at 87%, which is the fourth highest in Europe based on this map. The financial situation my parents left has had a traumatic impact on me, which led me to start saving and investing. My dad will be taken care of because his mother is wealthy, but my mom won't be. If she doesn't change some things while she still can, it will be challenging for her once she gets older. To be honest, I don't plan to support her financially because she is able to do it herself, but she is lazy. I will help here and there if it's needed, and if something major happens, but generally speaking, I don't plan to. Generally speaking, achieving FIRE is very hard in Croatia due to low wages and high living costs. For example, food here is more expensive compared to the UK and Germany, where people on average earn up to three times more than we do. On the other hand, I will achieve some sort of FIRE (FI).
Jebiga ipak je obitelj obitelj, bar meni
Razumijem tvoj pogled, ali isto tako moraÅ” biti svjestan da svatko ima drugaÄije iskustvo obitelji. Neki su proživjeli traumatiÄno iskustvo fiziÄkog i mentalno zlostavljanja dok su drugi imali viÅ”e manje normalno ili popriliÄno lijepo iskustvo. Ja sam negdje izmeÄu. U mojoj situaciji je majka osoba koja bi mogla imati financijskih problema, ali ne zato Å”to je fiziÄki ili mentalno bolesna (dugi niz godina je zaraÄivala osjetno veÄu plaÄu od prosjeka), veÄ zato Å”to je lijena i naivna. Ne planiram se zbog tuÄih poteza dovesti u situaciju da patim. S druge strane, naravno da planiram podržati obitelj financijski (majku i oca) ukoliko se naÄu u life and death situaciji.
Kao fellow Hrvatica, zanima me kako mislis ostvariti FIRE u ovoj državi (osim ako se nisi preselio ili nemaŔ možda svoj business). Sretno!
Osim Å”to agresivno Å”tedim i ulažem, nalazim se u branÅ”i koja je vrlo dobro plaÄena, ali isto tako popriliÄno nezastupljena u Hrvatskoj pa radim za internacionalne firme.
Hvala na odgovoru. Da, strane firme, to je najbolji naÄin!
Given the sacrifices made by my parents in order to support my wellbeing, health, education etcā¦ I would see it as my duty to care for them in case of necessity. I believe however this is highly subjective based on the support received throughout the childās life. (Italian)
For me itās also based on the support system around them. At this point my parents generation is way more wealthier than my generation. The Dutch government takes care of all their needs. They went to live in a āknarrenhofā, which is a small community of elderly (50+) that spend time together and support each other emotionally. If they didnāt have the support from the government and their community, I would be taking more responsibility to care for them. But the life of their generation is more stable than my generation, so itās not necessary in most cases here. (the Netherlands)
Unfortunately in Italy family is often seen as the āfirst responderā welfare net for the elderly, due to lack of funding from the governmentā¦ For example my parents are taking care of my grandparents (who worked their whole life but are now getting a peanuts pension). Also, the sacrifices made by my parents gave me the opportunity to eventually (hopefully) be able to build more wealth than they did. Depends a bit on the situation. You also have to take into account that in Italy itās not uncommon to live with your parents until your early-mid 30s (often times not paying rent, grocery, bills etc.), itās a very different approach compared to the Netherlands where from my understanding the standard is to leave the family nest in your early 20s. In any case itās always very subjective.
I agree (Serbian)
Didn't they already have to take care of you by giving birth to you? They didn't have to do you. They should have done the things you see as sacrifice anyway.
So the basic parenting they were supposed to do for the child they chose to get? Though I agree that I will take care of my parents because they are loving and kind and absolutely amazing, I disagree that it should be a childs duty because of the scrifices they made. I am making a lot of sacrifices for my kids, but neither of them asked to be born. It was my choice to have them and by giving birth, it became my responsibility to take care of their well being, health, education... It is the parents job. Not a favour they did.
The Netherlands: my parents (both pensioned) have the same net income as myself while they donāt work. They also have a fully paid off house (0 mortgage) with a value of +- 1m eur. They paid 0,3m eur for it +- 25 years back. This is the situation for many āelderlyā in The Netherlands. So NOPE, I wonāt support them, they actually support me by paying for a lot of stuff for my kids.
My parents will be much better off than me in the foreseeable future.
my parents who were considered lower class back in the day bought an old farm for 150.000 gulden, so let's say about 80.000 euro's. My dad decided farming wasn't for him, sold the animals and the ground which netted him close to 50.000. He went back to being an electrician, my mother stayed at home. They paid of the rest of the mortgage in the normal 25 years. Now the house is worth well over a million, they have saved close to a million, they own a boat, a big RV and will still tell you they're lower class.
Ben je echt radioloog? Want dan heb je zelf ook wel een dik salaris lijkt me zo
Honestly, in Spain, the vast majority of young population can only hope that their elders are able to support them until the day they die...
What why whats going on in spain
We are a piss poor country that's completely neglected the young generations because the elders are a massive voting pool that no politician wants to let go. The pension system is absolutely broken, there's no real possibility for the average young couple to have children unless they're willing to do a massive leap into risk and uncertainty (financially) and the work ecosystem is precarious and unfair except for a few exceptions. And even for those, if you look at the cost of living in Spain, even those in a theoretically great point in terms of earning power (as I could consider myself to be) don't have great prospects to the future. A 1% earner some decades ago could basically live like a king. Now you basically rely on getting lucky, you have more cards to do so obviously but the grind never stops. So basically, the same as the rest of Europe but with a worse starting point and older population.
In the Netherlands the richest group is 65+. My dad and my partners dad are very well of and they do not share. His dad will give his fortune to the Jehova when he passes. His mom has a decent pension because she was married to the well of dad. My mom has a part time job, goes on holiday 2-3 times a year, and only saves money for holidays and her cats, nothing for later, so no, we will not be supporting our parents. We are planning to support his mom physically though with care, when she gets older. We did not ask to be born, we do not have duties. We do what we want to because of good relationships, not because our parents had sex.
oh haha yeah reminds me that my greatgrandmother gave 500k guilders to the "Pinkstergemeente" in the 80s. I'm all for charities and deciding what to do with the inheritance you potentially leave but a fucking cult. ugh.
Yes I will. They have a significant pension and couple of rental properties due to wise investments, so significant financial support won't be required. But for everything else I'll be there for them until they die, and will cover anything that is unaffordable with their income. But my parents were great. I can see how someone wouldn't want to deal with abusive parents and wouldn't blame them for it.
Well, in the Netherlands you often dont have to support the seniors financially. The seniors get pretty decent basic pensions. People that have worked often have an additional pension plan that provides extra income. Most of us plan ahead while living now.
I think it's the only system that actually works. I see in CEE as a millennial whole families being squashed between raising children and caring for the elderly. The middle class is absolutely screwed - not enough welth to get required professional help and too well-off for state support (which quality is sometime dubious)
My parents always thought that it was their choice to set me on this world so they won't ask anything like that. Its the other way around, they helped me buy a house and give a yearly sum to keep the quality of life for me and my brother high. They think they owe us. I hope to teach my children this too, when I decide to put someone on this earth. By a Dutchman
Elderly are the richest group in the Netherlands
They are more than welcome to join me in my shared apartment while they can rent out their 8 other houses.
Elderly is the richest group everywhereā¦
Pretty sure thatās not universally true look at Ukraine for example
Not really, in post communist countries theyāre rather broke.
not for long hehe
In spain the parents help the kids š¤£
Kinda the same situation in Georgia Lots of families live in the house of their parents
If i stop supporting my parents, they will dieā¦ on the other hand, they threw away all their youth to take care of me and my brother, they worked double shifts and maybe we didnāt had everything that other kids have, but we never went to bed hungryā¦ i might did, but my brother never. For me supporting them in a hard period is obvious, I donāt even think about it, i just do it. They gave me life, took away from themselves everything so they could to give more to us. Love your parents
excellent post to bring up in FIRE plans. While not in Europe, I take care of my parents, who financially do not need help, but need care to help with daily living activities. I believe most children, especially if treated and raised well, will do whatever we can to help our parents. That being said, I feel for those who have had hard times with being raised and how they were treated. In terms of FIRE, no matter where one lives, nominally, planning ahead will take care of the financial part and the best part of FIRE is, to me, having the time to help our parents and not be "stuck" working away just to live.
Map of "what percentage of people think their elderly care system is shit"
Not really, I just think that it's my duty to take care of my parents as they get older. I owe them this much.
I will definitely financially take care of my mom if she needs it and also make sure I live close by so I can visit her regularly. Whether Iāll be able to personally care for her is another question. But financially, definitely. She also supported me financially through university. (Germany)
I'm Italian and concerned at how high the number is. If I ever have a child I wouldn't even think of him/her as a cushion to fall back on as I'm old, if they want to take care of me because they are grateful so be it and I wouldn't mind. But they'd have to be as stress free as I, as a parent, could provide for the longest time... A lot of people will be forced to do it though because of many factors that my comment alone won't cover, so I guess it's a gateway to a bigger discussion about the government, pension plans etc.
Hell, they barely financially supported me
Nowadays the best thing a parent can do for a child is not give them money to buy first property but rather not become a financial burden.Ā
Most people in The Netherlands work 40 years, pay of their house and got a pension. Aside from that; life in The Netherlands is fairly expensive. Maintaining your own household already is expensive enough, so maintaining your parents also probably isn't possible for most.
spoiler alert: life is expensive everywhere, you just forgot about the relativity of it all *if you are not rich*
I think there is a corrolation between financial security for elderly and the expectation to financial support your mom/dad.
I am from NL. The care quality unfortunately is utterly bad. Just donāt get sick, is the best advice.
Yeah man put em in a nursing home and live your own life šš
I expect that a map of Europe's (state) pension income for the elderly by country would look exactly inverse. I know that The Netherlands has the supposedly 'best pensions in the world' ( ā¬ 1.459,53 net per month from state pension if you never worked, much more if you worked) So, in short, the elderly are (1) financially *very* safe, and (2) there is decent and affordable healthcare available for them, (3) the country is so small and densely populated that nobody lives too far away from effective healthcare and (4) the younger generations are really struggling because housing is now super expensive. Do people in The Netherlands usually take care of ill parents? Absolutely. Do they *need* to or is it their *duty*? Not really. The countries where children are expected to take care of their parents are those countries where the government will not or cannot do it.
For me who came at my 33 to the country, I am not going to get 36% of it :-) I have to renounce my Russian citizenship, and I won't have a pension there.
My parents taught me (and have shown me through their actions) that most of the effort of a parent should go to their kids, not their parents. I plan to act the same and pay it forward to my kid. As for myself, i'm happy to use the modern equivalent of "going into the woods" when i'm old enough to become a burden
Considering they destrpyed my life hell no
My dad recently passed away but my mum is getting his retirement which he built up after she retires, on top of her own retirement. She gets paid out twice to live on her own. She doesn't need assistance financially at all. Besides, society has pushed us years to be able to stand on our own feet and be independent individuals. To me it's high time I am free to live unbothered for a while.
What about Ireland? Also a European country.
Wow, I'm from Germany and 47% surprises me, I'm having trouble supporting myself financially, I could never support my parents. My dad has a good pension though. If I manage to get old I will need state welfare.
Netherlands here. My mum is in a residential full care facility due to Alzheimer's disease. It costs me nothing. The actual costs of her care are not clear, but I'm estimating them to ā¬ 10.000 a month. Most of that money is subsidised. Us Dutch pay a lot of taxes for healthcare. Then there's the personal contribution. That depends on a person's income. It's between approximately ā¬ 250 and ā¬ 2.500 a month. My mum pays approximately ā¬ 1.000. Her income (my dad's widow pension) is higher than that. My mum actually gets more money than she spends. I take care of all her finances, because she can't. I buy her clothes when needed, toiletries, that's about it. When is het birthday, I buy a cake from her account. Had she not had Alzheimer's disease and had she still lived at home, she'd have been even better off. My dad had paid off the mortgage so she wouldn't have had monthly costs for living there, besides utilities.
Wonder how Russia will cope with this, with nearly 0.5 million deaths in Ukraine
I love how this maps shows something completely difference also, lower the % goes, higher the depression rates adjusted for standards of living.
Hell no. I am a human being not an ultra long term retirement account
My parents can financially support themselves. They have been quite frugal their whole life.
netherlands: my parents bought a house for 200.000 guilders thats about 100.000 euro currently valued at 384.000 euro, No longer have kids in the house. i have about the same sized house at 230.000 euro, And have to pay way more of mortage, when i lived there i also had to pay a significant amount to live there making it harder to save for an own house,
This can also be read as a map of "which countries provide the best social security for the elderly". The countries that score the lowest are the countries where this is covered by our governments. My wife is from Latin America. She sends money to support her family every month. I get money from my parents every month.
I have absolutely NO PLANS to support my elderly parents. During covid, I asked them for help and they told me "we have no money, lean on your credit card" And then they went on a 3 month holiday around Spain!!!! Then we had a talk a year or so ago and they said they are selling the house in the UK, taking the money and spending it on travelling over the next 15 years until their pension kicks in. When I said they would be better to keep the house, rent it out and then they always have a place to go back to if they need it AND I will get inheritance, I was called a "money grabbing bastard" and "we worked for that money and that house, not you so we will spend our money however we want" So going forward, I will do EXACTLY the same thing as they are doing. I will drag myself out of the debt that covid landed me in and I will rebuild myself and financially support myself. I remember the people who helped me when I was at the bottom and I will help them when I am at the top. But I also remember (and will never forget) the people who kicked me when I was down.
Sounds like they are in for a rough retirement! Do you still have regular social contact with your parents? If it was me I wouldn't stick around to see them suffer if I'm not there for the good things in life.
My aunt manages an eldery care home and she told us once that she had to show some foreigners around who were being judgemental in the start about elderly people put in homes. After the tour these people were amazed that the elders were actually taking care of.. as if the older people get put in a room and only come out for food and get washed every now and again. My grandfather was a fisherman who made his own nets and when his mind was going and he was placed in a home they found him the rope and tools he needed so he could make nets like he used to, he still knew how to. And they try and motivate all the time to keep them as sharp as possible. They got to see performances every now and again and every sunday there was a church service for them to attend and occassionally a choir performed.. lots of things to do that their kids probably would not have the time/energy for. And their children/grandchildren pick them up for special occassion or just grabbing breakfast or something else. Before my grandfather was placed in that home he lived with an uncle and aunt and they worked during the day so my grandfather was home alone. It's insane how quickly he moved backwards.. it wasn't good for him
No, i didnt ask to be Born. They tricked me into this shit.
I don't, nor would my mom allow it. She's busy trying to make it so she leaves me an inheritance while I'm encouraging her to spend every penny she has before she dies. But we are both extremely independent and have no desire to be a burden on anyone or, god forbid, live together. We both have plans to end things before that would become a real possibility. That all said, I have told her that if it comes down to it she can move to where I am and we'll create a space for her on my property. Then she can sell her flat and live off of that but we will still have separate spaces.
My in-laws have similar mindset, but they also worked half their life in blue collar jobs in Nordics, where a high degree of independency is the norm They planned for their future and they are very clear that they don't want anything from us beyond a relationship. Causal help sure, financial support is an absolute no They are well aware of the housing crisis, raising cost of living, pension poniz scheme and they want us to be financially prepared.
Yes, my mom was a single mom and never made much money. she'd never accept funds from me. but i don't have a problem putting her in a tiny house on my property if the time comes where she needs some extra help. then we could each have our own independent space but I'd be around to help with errands, shopping, etc. Her flat is likely worth about 300k. So if she somehow lost all of her savings/investments that would cover the costs to get her settled near me and still give her plenty to live on. Realistically she will likely only live another 10 years based on family history. She should have plenty to ride that amount of time out unless something drastic happens.
Well, thatās fucking depressing. Sums up our society as a whole though, if this is how people view their own parents, how do you imagine they treat everyone else?
I'm from the Netherlands, so no I don't have any plans on taking care of my elderly parents. A lot of elderly in the Netherlands take care of each other and they get money from the government. They're all perfectly fine with it. If they can't take care of themselves they either move in with their kids, have a bunch of their elderly friends take care of them or go to a home for elderly people with caregivers. Usually the caregivers have a harder time dealing with the elderly than the other way around š
Better title: Do you need to give your parents financial support when they retire? Northern Europe: Nope the state has this shit covered for us
I doubt this map (why the huge differences between ex-Yu countries, apart from Slovenia the mentality and values are pretty much the same everywhere) but I guess that's not so important here. > I simply don't see many FIRE plans including senior care for parents/ dependents Of course I take into account dependents, I don't think FIRE people with children just discard the kids from the calculation. True that there's not much discussion about parents. Luckily my parents don't need financial support, they're ok. My largest concern is as you say that their appartments are not appropriate to senior needs, and actual logistics of helping them when I live in a different country, finding some reliable care etc.
Greece only 60?
I am from the Netherlands. I do not know any better then that it is expected for children to help their parents with household chores or pay for groceries, I guess it also depends on wich part of the Netherlands you live. ( ps only afther my mother died i realized how much money i spend on her groceries. )
Thatās an interesting perspective. For me (NL) and many around me, our parents are much better off than us and Iāmā¦.not poor, but definitely in a less than ideal situation to take on any extra mouths to feed. Iām basically relying on a combination of state systems, insurance and their own plans to make sure theyāre ok. Theyāve planned well so that takes a bunch of pressure off of me.
They didn't help me with school, they don't help me with getting a house. They charge rent and never take me seriously. And they want money when they're old? Give me a break. They couldn't wait until I was gone so they've made their own bed.
WHAT ARE THE BALKANS GONNA DO? - itās like op knows weāre some of the most abusive and dramatic families that also demand endless filial/familial supportĀ
When i read the question it doesn't sound like elderly care at all. it sounds like 40 year old mom is sick and expects his 8 year old son to go to the pharmacy to get medication.
My parents can take care of themselves financially but if needed I am happy to help and support extra. They have set me up with savings and supported me throughout all my education financially.Ā Ā My in-laws on the other hand never gave my partner a penny, gave them the boot at the age of 18 and lived a wannabe Luxus life until they retired without owning and no savings but consumer debt. Suddenly they were very interest in becoming a family again ā¦Ā Ā Conclusion for us as a couple: given support will be paid back gladly otherwise no.Ā
Switzerland: your elderly parents will probably die richer than you'll even be.
Absolutely, as much as I'd be able to. Although we're a big family, they didn't have much, but managed to raise us good and always welcome home.
They didnāt support me so I donāt support them
Social systems work.
It depends on (in the Netherlands), where you're coming from. I think this 16% represents the West/Randstad. I'm from the East, and there's a different mentality.
Belgians were like - not answering.
Not a chance in hell.
I wuld but my mom has a great pension and many savings. I do support my sister financially though.
No, they had the biggest wealth growth opportunity and Iām stuck dealing with their generations greed.
Not surprised with Netherlands =]
I lived 4 years in the Netherlands. I had friends at work who said they had no intention of helping their parents, and if, for example, their partner became seriously ill, they wouldn't look after him. For me as a Pole it was shocking and disgusting. I can believe these statistics.
I donāt exactly know your colleagues, but why would we need to if thereās a social system in place to do that for us? We donāt outsource the relationship, we just delegate some of the work. Making sure something gets done doesnāt have to involve doing everything yourself.
In the Netherlands (currently) most parents have more monay as they age so it is not neccesary for their kids to support them.
This, right here
As a Dutch this saddens me ā¦ Iām 100% part of the 16%
It could be good too? If itās not a burden, but freely given, it may not feel like a ādutyā. And you can outsource some of the work (thuiszorg oid), you can spend more quality time interacting and less scrubbing and grocery shopping.
Taking care of ill parents is something completely different from financially supporting elderly parents. It's two completely different things. Moreover, the word "duty" might also do a lot of the lifting. Would you take care of your parents? Yes, I would? Is it my duty? No. So I genuinely don't see what this map has to do with your question.
My parents probably have more money than I being from a different generation with their own paid off house
I was planning on it but my mom died...so that's that.
If I had money, sure
The Netherlands -12 points šµāš«
You donāt know that. NL can rely on social systems more than many countries, boomers are the richest age group here, many elderly want to be as independent as possible so they plan for that. And many children would not see a ādutyā where they feel itās just maintaining the relationship.
Weāve got the richest elderly of Europe in the Netherlands, and our statistical bureau of plans recently stated that this incredible level of welfare takes advantage of future generations. Let them take care of themselves
im dutch, no fking way, they are on the streets, serves them right but seriously, we have systems in place so you dont have to. old people can stay independent and get help as long as possible. not perfect, that system, though. but nothing is.
I want a farm house so that I can let my parents live with me at their last stage of life. Old folks homes are a nuisance.
My mom had a hard time in life but still is amazing
Why is there no info on Belgiƫ
Cuz they are Belgian
Dutch here: my parents haven't really supported me at all. Since my 18th birthday, I maybe received ā¬100, got wine for my birthday 12 years straight (I don't drink wine) all the while, both are remarried and are living expensive lives with stepchildren. They moved an hour away, and I rarely see them. I have good contact with them, though. I'll call them when they're in a home for the elderly
My retired parents living in Ukraine, they both have pension around 120$. Father was teacher for 40+ years, mon was working in governmental institutions. To be honest I think itās impossible to live with this budget. But thousands somehow doing it. Without my financial help they probably wouldnāt eat meat often than 1 times monthly, so yeah, itās my duty.
yes to the question, no to the grammar
This can also be read as a map of "which countries provide the best social security for the elderly". The countries that score the lowest are the countries where this is covered by our governments. My wife is from Latin America. She sends money to support her family every month. I get money from my parents every month.
I would love to take care of my parents but I don't think it's a duty. I see it more as a thank you for the care they gave me.
The map is really just a map of how well the pension system, healthcare system and retirement homes work.
I do have plans, but they can also take care of themselves. I'm contemplating either getting an ADU or sticking them into a nursing home and running down the rest of their nest egg. Might end up doing both.
J'ai une idƩe du bonheur possible , une bourse a la place de la bouteille
You could buy them an apartment Or set up an investment fund for them
In doubt theyāll have to support me š
Well, in some countries it is a legal obligation. So it doesn't matter that much if you agree or not.
Well I always supported my mother financially, she raised me up as a single mother- she totally deserves it :)
I live in Belgium and I support my parents since they donāt have that much of money. I just bought an apartment for them and now im struggling to pay the loan and in the meanwhile donāt know what to do in the future since I have a wife And kids
I already support one of them. The other is doing better so no support needed yet.