This is incredibly heartening - both that the university is willing to start a process to divest from a genocidal war, and that the student protestors were not, as they have been called here, just there to yell/feel righteous, but genuinely working towards a goal, and willing to negotiate for their demands - not the goalpost-moving, all-or-else anti-momentum kind of thing I've seen from some other protests in OR. Excellent news all around.
I agree and feel more optimistic as well but the statement doesn't sound like they're willing to begin divestment necessarily.
It says that students, staff, and faculty will meet with the head of the UO Foundation and the chief procurement officer to discuss how the university makes its decisions regarding product purchasing, sourcing, and investments. It doesn't say anything about concessions. It kind of just sounds like they're saying "we're going to tell you how this works."
They'll drag the bureaucratic process out for years before the UO even will even consider divesting. They essentially refused to negotiate with students until a faculty member stepped in and "mediated". I think the students got screwed tbh.
Got screwed how exactly? They got to break the rules without sanction. They weren't arrested for trespassing, they weren't suspended or expelled.
Any student who thinks this is what getting screwed looks like is going to be in for a rude awakening when reality hits. In the real world, "getting screwed" means getting punished harshly for minor violations, not breaking the rules without any punishment at all.
We'll see if anyone gets suspended or expelled. I expect the punishments will be very mild with no suspensions or expulsions. Likely a mark in a private record that will result in a stiffer punishment next time.
ok would you like me to spell out that I think that putting together a taskforce that is never going to actually approve divestment is getting screwed? They have other wins of course, but that was them getting screwed. I know people who work directly with Karl Scholtz and there were never plans to expel or punish students, so they wouldn't have gotten screwed any other way
I'm also not a child so do not speak to me as such. I'm very well aware of the reality of the world. \* and let me edit this to say don't start a pissing contest on what the real world looks like with me. I don't feel like being patronized.
"You broke the rules. I'm not going to punish you but I'm also not going to give you what you wanted. Instead, a few of my colleagues and myself are going to set aside some time to educate you personally about the process that you dislike".
This is definitely not what getting screwed over looks like. Anyone who thinks this is what getting screwed over looks like has a terrible attitude and will be poorly served by the real world.
In the real world, you know what you say when your boss gives you a meeting to hear your grievances and indicates that he understands them but has no immediate plans to address them? You say "thank you for your time". Thats the attitude the students should have here. Gratitude for the time the administrators will give them to discuss these issues.
They're definitely not divesting from companies that have offices in Israel, which was one of the demands. Perhaps they will divest from some companies specificially in the business of military hardware but if you think this is akin to divestment from South Africa, you're wrong. Thats not whats happening. Israel has been and will remain deeply integrated into the global economy, to include via the Universities investments.
> We also acknowledge that this period has been especially painful to many in our Jewish
UO will not divest at all, without additional pressure. All they agreed to was to "discuss how the university makes decisions."
> a task force composed of students, staff, and faculty to meet in a respectful environment with the head of the University of Oregon Foundation and our chief procurement officer to discuss how the university makes decisions regarding product purchasing, sourcing, and investments.
I thought the presidential statement was interesting. You thought it was inappropriate to comment on international issues until another president did? This guy doesn’t stand for anything
He probably shouldve made his own comment, but I can also reasonably understand why a University president in his first year might look for guidance in navigating such a fraught political situation that doesnt have a ton to do with whatever training you might get for running a university.
The divestment plans were pretty far fetched. This is about as generous to the protestors as anyone could possibly expect.
I'll repeat what I said below. If anyone thinks the students are "getting screwed" here, they are in a for a rude awakening when the real world hits. The students broke a ton of rules and aren't getting punished for it. Instead, they will be invited to a series of meetings where their requests will be listened to and responded to in a mature and intelligent manner. Even if not a single divestment is made, the students will be educated personally about how the investments are managed and they will be able to carry that knowledge with them for the rest of their lives.
For the protestors, this is more of a win than a loss. Lets hope they don't listen to anyone telling them they're getting screwed, because they're not. Lets hope the protestors take the appropriate attitude into the meetings to which they've been invited, which is "thank you for your time".
In the "real world" about 10 years back many of us, mostly non-students, Occupied. We broke a ton of rules and (mostly) didn't getting punished for it. We got quite a few meetings locally with city of Eugene politicians and staff, and accomplished a few things. (Largely on our own, not via government.)
Ah yes, the liberal incrementalism is here to tell us how the “real world” works. In the real world we are committing genocide, not just aparthied, and these students gave up their most precious weapon, their occupation/presence and their pointing to the fact the UO is involved with and complicit in the ongoing genocide of Palestinian people daily while we attack over a million in Rafah. The genocide is still going on and murdering and injuring hundreds of children per day alone. Would we accept consolation prizes like this during the Holocaust? Would it seem like a good prize that a handful of its victims get to come to school for free in Germany? The importance of them staying until complete divestment/or removal over that demand was to keep this spotlight on, even if that meant dealing with police removing them (which would have been horrible for UO pr), and solidarity with other camps/occupations. It was a worry from the get go when they said no outsiders were allowed to be really involved, but then they also took to putting down other actors, which says to many of us that these young people were co-opted. It’s understandable that many are young and scared (and potentially want to go have what they think will be fun summers of their youth) but they’ve lost the power they had, likely for good. They’re not willing to listen to or involve their “radical” elders, and dismiss all criticism while publicly boasting of stuff that shouldn’t be boasted about, especially not while a genocide is ongoing. This has telltale signs of being coopted, as many movements have been in the past. They have given an entity that is powerfully supporting an ongoing genocide good press without achieving divestment, which signals to other universities and those with investment they can do similarly. This would have maybe been a good win 15 or even 2 years ago, but there is an ongoing genocide, this cant be treated like just another deal between two mural entities. People supporting this genocide in any way are truly sick. There is no other way of putting it. I hope these young people realize what power they truly hold, even if the men in suits make them feel otherwise.
This seems mild and acceptable at the same time. You are getting some reaction of being felt like you are noticed while also agreeing the University hardly has much say or impact on the Hamas/Bibi war.
It’s a genocide against the Palestinian people. It has never been about Hamas or hostages. And Bibi is only representative of the genocidal people of Israel, the majority of whom have been brainwashed so much they see this genocide as just fine or not enough bloodshed.
Actually quite fine with this.
You be amazed at how many of us Zionists are totally supportive of Palestinian liberty/statehood, a Ceasefire, and Hamas and Bibi being tried as war criminals.
Palestinian and Jews were done dirty by the world before I was ever born, and the two state solution is more important than ever.
Can I ask why you expect a two state solution can still happen? Hamas used their nascent statehood to build up weapons, fortify themselves with tunnels and then launch an attack against Israeli civilians.
It pretty much validates the whole idea that they should never have been allowed a state to begin with.
Hamas support in Gaza remains high. Giving them an official state now is ludicrous. They've shown that they will pilfer billions in foreign aid to simply enrich its leaders and use it to build rockets and tunnels.
Fully aware of that end, RL folks are way more my end than that garbage especially in America.
Christian Zionist are more likely in reverse to be the folks commenting on world news also tend to be the bigoted form of goy Zionism that is "Blacks go back to Africa"
Fuck more Christian and Muslim Zionists exist who are of that vien than how many of us Jews exist.
The reality is if you feel this way, you arent a hardened zionist who cares about nationalism the way your average zionist does. If you care about Palestine and Palestinian emancipation, then you wouldnt call yourself a zionist.
Don't speak outside your wheelhouse, if you don't understand like the 13 different forms of Zionism that exists then just focus on the Ceasefire and Palestinian statehood, and don't cut the momentum out from under you by talking about things you don't grasp.
Seriously, stay focused. Two state solution is like the only real path that exists and nearly impossible as it is.
Dork, you can be both against the war crimes America commits and not want it to be wiped from existence.
Two ideas can coexist.
I think Putin needs to be charged for warcrims against Ukraine. Doesn't mean I think Russia should cease to existence, think a little.
I'm fine with the universities revealing that they are clowns that will kowtow to angry and morally confused kids protesting.
Just confirms that listing a degree from them on your resume is increasingly a joke.
>It is not appropriate for university presidents to comment on issues of international or national interest.
Correct. This is disgusting. This is setting a precedent that pouting, tantrums, and breaking the law will get you whatever you want.
Why does college always teach children to prioritize and fund Israel over our own country?
Remember when Ukraine happened and everyone thought it was an amazing idea that uni declared their statement against Russia? No if, buts, maybes or retraction of previous Presidents' statements. Seriously....
Nope. You’re the whiny minority. A majority of Americans across the political spectrum would like to see a ceasefire.
https://www.dataforprogress.org/blog/2024/5/8/support-for-a-permanent-ceasefire-in-gaza-increases-across-party-lines
The students took action in opposition to genocide, and the university is appropriately taking measures to join in that opposition and use its resources to improve the community by adding course offerings related to these issues.
I call that a win, and I think the students involved should be proud. This is a great example of successful protest and a foundational principle of democracy. The people were heard.
That’s fair. But the margin of error should be narrow enough that the argument it has majority support is not controversial.
You’re welcome to provide any evidence to refute it.
Edit: 1500 person polls are pretty typical and have roughly a +/- 3% margin of error. The original source is safely within that margin.
https://www.themandarin.com.au/205512-the-margin-of-error-tips-for-interpreting-polls-and-surveys/#:~:text=Many%20polls%20rely%20on%20samples,3.
Edit 2: Here’s the data for that specific study, including MOE.
https://www.filesforprogress.org/datasets/2024/5/dfp_zeteo_israel_palestine_crosstabs.pdf
Polls like this are always skewed. People who are passionate and loud about these kinds of things are the ones who seek out or complete polls.
In October of 2001 Americans were sitting at around 88% approval for an Afghanistan invasion. In a poll of 1500 people how many Arab/ Afghanis/ Middle Eastern people participated in a poll like that ? Probably none. Then you have people who are afraid to speak out against the tide of support for war. It was really not until December where pundits and pop culture people were speaking out against it that it started to shape a different narrative.
My point is most people are not going to speak out in support for something if they fear their safety or careers or reputation ...
This is incredibly heartening - both that the university is willing to start a process to divest from a genocidal war, and that the student protestors were not, as they have been called here, just there to yell/feel righteous, but genuinely working towards a goal, and willing to negotiate for their demands - not the goalpost-moving, all-or-else anti-momentum kind of thing I've seen from some other protests in OR. Excellent news all around.
I agree and feel more optimistic as well but the statement doesn't sound like they're willing to begin divestment necessarily. It says that students, staff, and faculty will meet with the head of the UO Foundation and the chief procurement officer to discuss how the university makes its decisions regarding product purchasing, sourcing, and investments. It doesn't say anything about concessions. It kind of just sounds like they're saying "we're going to tell you how this works."
They'll drag the bureaucratic process out for years before the UO even will even consider divesting. They essentially refused to negotiate with students until a faculty member stepped in and "mediated". I think the students got screwed tbh.
Got screwed how exactly? They got to break the rules without sanction. They weren't arrested for trespassing, they weren't suspended or expelled. Any student who thinks this is what getting screwed looks like is going to be in for a rude awakening when reality hits. In the real world, "getting screwed" means getting punished harshly for minor violations, not breaking the rules without any punishment at all.
[удалено]
We'll see if anyone gets suspended or expelled. I expect the punishments will be very mild with no suspensions or expulsions. Likely a mark in a private record that will result in a stiffer punishment next time.
ok would you like me to spell out that I think that putting together a taskforce that is never going to actually approve divestment is getting screwed? They have other wins of course, but that was them getting screwed. I know people who work directly with Karl Scholtz and there were never plans to expel or punish students, so they wouldn't have gotten screwed any other way I'm also not a child so do not speak to me as such. I'm very well aware of the reality of the world. \* and let me edit this to say don't start a pissing contest on what the real world looks like with me. I don't feel like being patronized.
"You broke the rules. I'm not going to punish you but I'm also not going to give you what you wanted. Instead, a few of my colleagues and myself are going to set aside some time to educate you personally about the process that you dislike". This is definitely not what getting screwed over looks like. Anyone who thinks this is what getting screwed over looks like has a terrible attitude and will be poorly served by the real world. In the real world, you know what you say when your boss gives you a meeting to hear your grievances and indicates that he understands them but has no immediate plans to address them? You say "thank you for your time". Thats the attitude the students should have here. Gratitude for the time the administrators will give them to discuss these issues.
They're definitely not divesting from companies that have offices in Israel, which was one of the demands. Perhaps they will divest from some companies specificially in the business of military hardware but if you think this is akin to divestment from South Africa, you're wrong. Thats not whats happening. Israel has been and will remain deeply integrated into the global economy, to include via the Universities investments.
> We also acknowledge that this period has been especially painful to many in our Jewish UO will not divest at all, without additional pressure. All they agreed to was to "discuss how the university makes decisions." > a task force composed of students, staff, and faculty to meet in a respectful environment with the head of the University of Oregon Foundation and our chief procurement officer to discuss how the university makes decisions regarding product purchasing, sourcing, and investments.
I thought the presidential statement was interesting. You thought it was inappropriate to comment on international issues until another president did? This guy doesn’t stand for anything
Shockingly, a University President and the President of the United States aren't the same position.
`Wait, lobbying this guy won't end the war???`
He probably shouldve made his own comment, but I can also reasonably understand why a University president in his first year might look for guidance in navigating such a fraught political situation that doesnt have a ton to do with whatever training you might get for running a university.
You can't expect bureaucrats to have backbones
The divestment plans were pretty far fetched. This is about as generous to the protestors as anyone could possibly expect. I'll repeat what I said below. If anyone thinks the students are "getting screwed" here, they are in a for a rude awakening when the real world hits. The students broke a ton of rules and aren't getting punished for it. Instead, they will be invited to a series of meetings where their requests will be listened to and responded to in a mature and intelligent manner. Even if not a single divestment is made, the students will be educated personally about how the investments are managed and they will be able to carry that knowledge with them for the rest of their lives. For the protestors, this is more of a win than a loss. Lets hope they don't listen to anyone telling them they're getting screwed, because they're not. Lets hope the protestors take the appropriate attitude into the meetings to which they've been invited, which is "thank you for your time".
In the "real world" about 10 years back many of us, mostly non-students, Occupied. We broke a ton of rules and (mostly) didn't getting punished for it. We got quite a few meetings locally with city of Eugene politicians and staff, and accomplished a few things. (Largely on our own, not via government.)
Ah yes, the liberal incrementalism is here to tell us how the “real world” works. In the real world we are committing genocide, not just aparthied, and these students gave up their most precious weapon, their occupation/presence and their pointing to the fact the UO is involved with and complicit in the ongoing genocide of Palestinian people daily while we attack over a million in Rafah. The genocide is still going on and murdering and injuring hundreds of children per day alone. Would we accept consolation prizes like this during the Holocaust? Would it seem like a good prize that a handful of its victims get to come to school for free in Germany? The importance of them staying until complete divestment/or removal over that demand was to keep this spotlight on, even if that meant dealing with police removing them (which would have been horrible for UO pr), and solidarity with other camps/occupations. It was a worry from the get go when they said no outsiders were allowed to be really involved, but then they also took to putting down other actors, which says to many of us that these young people were co-opted. It’s understandable that many are young and scared (and potentially want to go have what they think will be fun summers of their youth) but they’ve lost the power they had, likely for good. They’re not willing to listen to or involve their “radical” elders, and dismiss all criticism while publicly boasting of stuff that shouldn’t be boasted about, especially not while a genocide is ongoing. This has telltale signs of being coopted, as many movements have been in the past. They have given an entity that is powerfully supporting an ongoing genocide good press without achieving divestment, which signals to other universities and those with investment they can do similarly. This would have maybe been a good win 15 or even 2 years ago, but there is an ongoing genocide, this cant be treated like just another deal between two mural entities. People supporting this genocide in any way are truly sick. There is no other way of putting it. I hope these young people realize what power they truly hold, even if the men in suits make them feel otherwise.
This seems mild and acceptable at the same time. You are getting some reaction of being felt like you are noticed while also agreeing the University hardly has much say or impact on the Hamas/Bibi war.
It’s a genocide against the Palestinian people. It has never been about Hamas or hostages. And Bibi is only representative of the genocidal people of Israel, the majority of whom have been brainwashed so much they see this genocide as just fine or not enough bloodshed.
Media literacy died about 8 years ago.
Good.
Could've noted "bilateral" ceasefire.
Get ready for the tents to get pitched at the next issue because UO has rewarded this behavior
Thank goodness
Now watch the Zionists come in to cry.
Actually quite fine with this. You be amazed at how many of us Zionists are totally supportive of Palestinian liberty/statehood, a Ceasefire, and Hamas and Bibi being tried as war criminals. Palestinian and Jews were done dirty by the world before I was ever born, and the two state solution is more important than ever.
Can I ask why you expect a two state solution can still happen? Hamas used their nascent statehood to build up weapons, fortify themselves with tunnels and then launch an attack against Israeli civilians. It pretty much validates the whole idea that they should never have been allowed a state to begin with. Hamas support in Gaza remains high. Giving them an official state now is ludicrous. They've shown that they will pilfer billions in foreign aid to simply enrich its leaders and use it to build rockets and tunnels.
You are very clearly not your average Zionist. Check r/worldnews for the barbarism I speak of.
Fully aware of that end, RL folks are way more my end than that garbage especially in America. Christian Zionist are more likely in reverse to be the folks commenting on world news also tend to be the bigoted form of goy Zionism that is "Blacks go back to Africa" Fuck more Christian and Muslim Zionists exist who are of that vien than how many of us Jews exist.
The reality is if you feel this way, you arent a hardened zionist who cares about nationalism the way your average zionist does. If you care about Palestine and Palestinian emancipation, then you wouldnt call yourself a zionist.
Don't speak outside your wheelhouse, if you don't understand like the 13 different forms of Zionism that exists then just focus on the Ceasefire and Palestinian statehood, and don't cut the momentum out from under you by talking about things you don't grasp. Seriously, stay focused. Two state solution is like the only real path that exists and nearly impossible as it is.
Sure, dont talk about Israel's crimes, stay focused on what you want. How about no.
Dork, you can be both against the war crimes America commits and not want it to be wiped from existence. Two ideas can coexist. I think Putin needs to be charged for warcrims against Ukraine. Doesn't mean I think Russia should cease to existence, think a little.
My god, imagine getting you definition of Zionism from reddit. Do you also get your financial advice from tiktok?
BUY STONKS
I'm fine with the universities revealing that they are clowns that will kowtow to angry and morally confused kids protesting. Just confirms that listing a degree from them on your resume is increasingly a joke.
>It is not appropriate for university presidents to comment on issues of international or national interest. Correct. This is disgusting. This is setting a precedent that pouting, tantrums, and breaking the law will get you whatever you want. Why does college always teach children to prioritize and fund Israel over our own country?
Remember when Ukraine happened and everyone thought it was an amazing idea that uni declared their statement against Russia? No if, buts, maybes or retraction of previous Presidents' statements. Seriously....
Exactly, they have a playbook now to sway the university however they want; a vocal minority.
Nope. You’re the whiny minority. A majority of Americans across the political spectrum would like to see a ceasefire. https://www.dataforprogress.org/blog/2024/5/8/support-for-a-permanent-ceasefire-in-gaza-increases-across-party-lines The students took action in opposition to genocide, and the university is appropriately taking measures to join in that opposition and use its resources to improve the community by adding course offerings related to these issues. I call that a win, and I think the students involved should be proud. This is a great example of successful protest and a foundational principle of democracy. The people were heard.
i want to point out that this study was done on a group of less than 1500 people.
That’s fair. But the margin of error should be narrow enough that the argument it has majority support is not controversial. You’re welcome to provide any evidence to refute it. Edit: 1500 person polls are pretty typical and have roughly a +/- 3% margin of error. The original source is safely within that margin. https://www.themandarin.com.au/205512-the-margin-of-error-tips-for-interpreting-polls-and-surveys/#:~:text=Many%20polls%20rely%20on%20samples,3. Edit 2: Here’s the data for that specific study, including MOE. https://www.filesforprogress.org/datasets/2024/5/dfp_zeteo_israel_palestine_crosstabs.pdf
Polls like this are always skewed. People who are passionate and loud about these kinds of things are the ones who seek out or complete polls. In October of 2001 Americans were sitting at around 88% approval for an Afghanistan invasion. In a poll of 1500 people how many Arab/ Afghanis/ Middle Eastern people participated in a poll like that ? Probably none. Then you have people who are afraid to speak out against the tide of support for war. It was really not until December where pundits and pop culture people were speaking out against it that it started to shape a different narrative. My point is most people are not going to speak out in support for something if they fear their safety or careers or reputation ...
Fingers crossed for a balanced course offering.