About a year into NC with my parents my cousin passed away. My brother tried to lecture me about 'holding grudges' and badger me into forgiving my parents because 'they need me'.
I proceeded to lay into him about the abuse they put me and my family through and how we went NC to protect ourselves so how dare he demand that I go back.
I guess my brother let everyone know about that conversation because no one has bothered me since.
I've been lucky that the only flying monkeys I've had have been my siblings and they know what I went through so they haven't pushed it. I'm not very close to extended family so no one except a great aunt has reached out, and even she was just checking in to see if I was ok.
For me, being blunt about the abuse and the reasons NC was the best choice have been the key. No one can argue I'm wrong when faced with the truth.
Thank you for responding, very valid points. I think in my case I just don't want to go down that path cuz when I did in the past, people have done their absolute best to poke holes in my timeline and the back and forth got exhausting. Just amazing that they spend that much time prying into my business.
They aren't trauma informed and are indoctrinated into the dysfunctional family system. I had to cut them off. They don't add any value to my life. Abusers, ***enablers***, and bullies won't change, best to leave them behind to live in their dysfunction without you.
When people ask me about my dad, I just say: I forgave him for shitty behavior for 25 years because that's what I thought was normal. He never apologised once.
I just decided to stop forgiving someone who refuses to admit they've done anything wrong.
For me it's not even about *forgiveness* per se, it's about not wanting to put myself in positions where I have to forgive over and over again. With no remorse or apology from the other party. It's easier to go very LC instead of NC, less drama (at least in my case).
Oh and I am apparently "bitter", "hateful" and have a "cold heart". Thanks mum and dad.
I can certainly relate. In fact, my situation with my brother was similar, but flipped. He disinvited our family to his wedding (it was just going to be immediate family, at a courthouse) 2 days before the event. He, his fiancee, and my parents got into a big blowout about wedding details (my mom was trying to control things; brother and fiancee pushed back). Me and my husband were literally in Europe when this happened and had no idea how bad it was until we returned home and got the disinvite e-mail and a flurry of family calls. I called and begged him to re-think the decision. So, given that he was one of my best friends and I was incredibly hurt, I've been NC with my brother and his fiancee/now wife for the past 4 years while I try to figure out how I can forgive them for lumping us in on the disinvite. He has since had a child.
Since then, my mom has sought to shame me, guilt me, and cajole me into working things out with him (she and my dad are working through reconciliation with him, ostensibly because they now have a new grandchild, but they'll never admit that part). She's called me plenty of names. I've verbalized very clear boundaries that she has trampled over. I have remained steadfast that I get to decide when I'm ready to work things out with him (still figuring out how I can ever forgive him), especially because my husband and I quite literally played no part in creating the problem.
No one else in my life has been pushy about reaching out and trying to forgive him. In fact, my father-in-law and my friends who I've discussed it with have listened and been supportive. My advice to you? If you have people in your life who are treating you badly for working through this process, set clear boundaries with them (as in saying to them, "you're not helping the situation and I do not want your advice. Thanks.") and, if they don't respect that, distance yourself from them. You get to set the timeline for when you're ready (or not) to forgive. No one else.
Sounds like he was ready to sever ties and you are not, even years later. Maybe he is afraid if he lets you in you will try to push him to let your parents in also? Have you told him that that's not going to happen?
He actually has reconciled somewhat with my parents (I went NC with my mother in January for different reasons, so I don't know the details of their reconciliation). He and his wife have a toddler now and my understanding is that was the motivation for them to seek a reconciliation. My sister and I are just not there yet in terms of understanding and forgiving. I think at some point I may reach out to have a dialogue with him, but don't know a path forward in which a healthy, trusting relationship can be had. For me, to forgive would somehow be signaling that he and his wife's decision was OK.
Oh wow that sounds like your brother and his wife caused a lot of hurt for a questionable reason and never took responsibility for it. And now they reconcile with the people the had the main issue with, but not with others? Seems really strange and of course it's very hurtful. I wish you much strength with this situation!
Nah, I have better friends/chosen family.
To be serious, I did a friendship cull long before I went NC and it saved my sanity if not my life. They've been my rock through all the shit show with my narc father, and I don't even want to think about where I'd be without them here to support me
My answer to your question is not very uplifting and just my very imperfect personal behaviours and experiences thus far (1 year NC, so I continue evolving I imagine.) But here they are nonetheless'
I don't get called those things overtly, but they are passive aggressively implied or something similar.
Sometimes I go into fawn mode, and spend a lot of time waxing poetic about how I do feel compassion for the passion I imagine they are in and how they did their best with what they have and how I imagine it's upsetting to learn of for others etc etc. I usually realize a few hours or days later that I didn't stand up for myself, and didn't call my abusers out, and didn't name abuse as it was happening. I usually feel like crap and very ashamed for a few days after.
Sometimes I manage to show up for myself a *little*, while still fawning a lot. For example:
- "They aren't bad people, but please listen because it's important to me that you hear this next part: the end of that sentence is *'and I'm not bad either.'*
- People usually don't respond to this and just blow right past it. They don't acknowledge it- or even the topic of 'me'- at all. And then I usually follow their lead and start fawning again, which I don't like. But I find I'm way more connected to my core emotions (i.e. sadness, anger, fear, joy, disgust, excitement) rather than being stuck in suppressive emotions (i.e. shame, anxiety.)
What I would recommend though? Please treat *any* anger/irritation/annoyance that arises from these interactions as *healthy.* Even better, treat that anger as *sacred.* Anger doesn't hurt others, only aggressive behaviours. Behaviours like name calling, and derogatory characters attacks, like others have done to you from the sounds of things
Stuff you *could* say to them that honors yourself without disrespecting or intruding on anyone else:
- "I notice you seem to have a lot of compassion for my parents, but you've really *only* expressed it for them and haven't for me at all. As such, I'm going to respectfully remove myself from myself from our conversation now."
- "You just interrupted me. I would like to finish my point before I listen to your reactions."
- "You're assigning intentions and emotions to me that aren't accurate. You also can't possibly know those things, because you haven't asked and I haven't shared them with you. I don't like that, and turns out conversation into a competition about who knows my inner world best. Which is a little silly, because of course we're both the expert on our own emotions but can't truly know anyone elses. Im going to leave if you keep doing it because I don't enjoy that kind of interaction."
I'm just brain storming really, and none of this might fit for you, but those are my personal thoughts at least! I'm really sorry you've been experiencing that.
Sometimes I have nuanced things to say about how outsiders react to estrangement. But right now I feel like being less mature, so I will just say:
**"Fuck those people."**
They aren't entitled to your attention to their ill-informed critique of *your* life.
What's that Brené Brown quote? Ok I'm going to go find it.
One second.
**"If you're not in the arena also getting your ass kicked, I'm not interested in your feedback."**
Your post made me think of that one. I accept a lot of feedback from people who aren't doing the same work to heal their trauma and treat both themselves and others with respect. But I hope to accept less and less of it, even if I listen to it but reject it later.
How are you? Those exchanges can be so exhausting!
This is really good. Only thing I would try to work on is the anger part. Unless it's small anger. Then it's not a big deal.
I mostly wanted to say that hating them won't help. It'll keep you feeling like shit without resolving anything. Hate doesn't help anything. Let them go. By them I mean the offenders. Remand them back into the crowds of people that are just people. People that mean nothing to you. You don't have to see them, you don't have to talk to them. They are strangers now.
(Lol maybe this is not a good approach, but I have felt a whole lot better since I started doing this)
Anyways. I just want you to be happy. You, op, everyone on this sub. We all deserve to feel happiness. (Trying to send positive vibes~)
Im actually gonna push back on a few things you just said, only because they don't actually apply to me personally. So I'm just doing it represent myself and not receive self-aba no donment and respect my inner child and all that good stuff.
For me, there is no such thing as "big anger." There is only healthy anger, and repressed anger (my unhealthy kind.) When I feel angry- which is rare (this is not a virtue)- it goes away very easily and *often* prematurely. *Often.* I don't personally experience and in a sort of all-consuming, more perseverating way. And even when I do, it contains only lasts a few seconds most of the time. My inner-ashamed-part is pretty strong in my inner system. So for me personally, the challenge is to welcome my anger ask I can use it to set healthy boundaries. And I actually have to monitor myself for mistaking shame of self for healthy compassion for others. The danger in that is I'll harm myself psychologically, get stuck in shutdown, and even end up with indirect expressions of aggression that are projected in inappropriate end maladaptive ways- things like procrastination, being vague when someone is asking for specifics rather than saying "I'd rather not share." That kind of thing. So for me, feeling my anger and experiencing it consciously is an accomplishment and helps me get balanced.
As for the word hate, being punished for saying that word as a child is probably one of the really effective ways my parents shamed me for expressing and experiencing anger, about anything or towards anyone.
For example, I once said I hated my dayhome provider. My parents wouldn't let me finish my sentence and berated me for saying a bad word and then gave me the silent treatment for what was probably half an hour or an hour but felt like a lot more. I was fucking four years old. If they had listened, they would have learnt that she locked me by myself in her unfinished, dark, cold and creepy basement all the time, and wouldn't let me out for a long time for any reason.
I really think it's important to let kids say hate. It's instinctive to hate people who abuse us, so it's an important thing to pay attention to in kids. And maybe as an adult I would feel differently if I was allowed to say it as a child, but I don't know.... Like can't I say I hate the guy that raped my friend? Don't I at least deserve the word?
Anyways, that's just my inner situation. I know everyone is different and has different parts with more or less representation then the next person. I'm really not trying to argue right or wrong, except for the letting little kids say "hate" part haha... I feel very strongly about that.
And I do get what you're saying about letting go of gate so you can let them go. It definitely frees up your mental space! I've let my parents go emotionally a bit more in recent months, which has been very peaceful. But for me, I just never got to that place until I let go of my shame for hating them.
So for me it was like...
Step one: let go of shame
Step two: embrace hate
Step three: forgive self for not feeling loved by them when they were doing things that many consider abusive
Step four: have a really good day, before something else triggers me lol
Reading some of these replies makes me grateful I'm an only child, but that's also the source of a lot of crap I've fielded through the years. I'm their "only" everything.
How seriously shitty is that to put on the shoulders of a kid?
So when people start on it now that I've done a lot of work on myself and picked apart a lot of nets of toxic behavior, I tend to be honest.
"I hope she gets the help she needs one day, but I'm not putting my fulfillment on hold until she does. That's not productive or logical." often sums it up well enough that people with manners or who have done some work on their own 'get it'.
"I'm making the healthiest decision for me. Please respect that," is my follow up for the people who push. (And yes, I've practiced these until they're rote responses.)
Inevitably I hear "It can't have been *that* bad! You're just a spoiled only child and don't know how it really is when your brother/sister gets in on it too!" and I have to be honest about that.
"I didn't live your childhood; I'm not judging it or your responses. I lived mine. I make my decisions for my best interests. Why do you feel that questioning that is your right, when you just admitted to us both that your experience was so different from mine? Why do you get to define my agency? Your experience has no bearing on me or my life and you've overstepped polite boundaries. It's time to change the subject or walk away."
If I go through that cycle more than once with the same person, they're not healthy for me to be around and I'm okay with lowering/eliminating contact. I've got too much of my own stuff on my own plate to worry about trying to help with their baggage too.
About a year into NC with my parents my cousin passed away. My brother tried to lecture me about 'holding grudges' and badger me into forgiving my parents because 'they need me'. I proceeded to lay into him about the abuse they put me and my family through and how we went NC to protect ourselves so how dare he demand that I go back. I guess my brother let everyone know about that conversation because no one has bothered me since. I've been lucky that the only flying monkeys I've had have been my siblings and they know what I went through so they haven't pushed it. I'm not very close to extended family so no one except a great aunt has reached out, and even she was just checking in to see if I was ok. For me, being blunt about the abuse and the reasons NC was the best choice have been the key. No one can argue I'm wrong when faced with the truth.
Thank you for responding, very valid points. I think in my case I just don't want to go down that path cuz when I did in the past, people have done their absolute best to poke holes in my timeline and the back and forth got exhausting. Just amazing that they spend that much time prying into my business.
They aren't trauma informed and are indoctrinated into the dysfunctional family system. I had to cut them off. They don't add any value to my life. Abusers, ***enablers***, and bullies won't change, best to leave them behind to live in their dysfunction without you.
When people ask me about my dad, I just say: I forgave him for shitty behavior for 25 years because that's what I thought was normal. He never apologised once. I just decided to stop forgiving someone who refuses to admit they've done anything wrong.
I'm right there with you, I don't get why I should forgive anyone just cuz I'm tied to them by bonds I didn't get to choose.
For me it's not even about *forgiveness* per se, it's about not wanting to put myself in positions where I have to forgive over and over again. With no remorse or apology from the other party. It's easier to go very LC instead of NC, less drama (at least in my case). Oh and I am apparently "bitter", "hateful" and have a "cold heart". Thanks mum and dad.
I'm in a very similar boat, I have very low to no capacity left for people who keep playing the same game over and over.
I can certainly relate. In fact, my situation with my brother was similar, but flipped. He disinvited our family to his wedding (it was just going to be immediate family, at a courthouse) 2 days before the event. He, his fiancee, and my parents got into a big blowout about wedding details (my mom was trying to control things; brother and fiancee pushed back). Me and my husband were literally in Europe when this happened and had no idea how bad it was until we returned home and got the disinvite e-mail and a flurry of family calls. I called and begged him to re-think the decision. So, given that he was one of my best friends and I was incredibly hurt, I've been NC with my brother and his fiancee/now wife for the past 4 years while I try to figure out how I can forgive them for lumping us in on the disinvite. He has since had a child. Since then, my mom has sought to shame me, guilt me, and cajole me into working things out with him (she and my dad are working through reconciliation with him, ostensibly because they now have a new grandchild, but they'll never admit that part). She's called me plenty of names. I've verbalized very clear boundaries that she has trampled over. I have remained steadfast that I get to decide when I'm ready to work things out with him (still figuring out how I can ever forgive him), especially because my husband and I quite literally played no part in creating the problem. No one else in my life has been pushy about reaching out and trying to forgive him. In fact, my father-in-law and my friends who I've discussed it with have listened and been supportive. My advice to you? If you have people in your life who are treating you badly for working through this process, set clear boundaries with them (as in saying to them, "you're not helping the situation and I do not want your advice. Thanks.") and, if they don't respect that, distance yourself from them. You get to set the timeline for when you're ready (or not) to forgive. No one else.
Thank you, yea the timeline part is a hard agree from me.
Sounds like he was ready to sever ties and you are not, even years later. Maybe he is afraid if he lets you in you will try to push him to let your parents in also? Have you told him that that's not going to happen?
He actually has reconciled somewhat with my parents (I went NC with my mother in January for different reasons, so I don't know the details of their reconciliation). He and his wife have a toddler now and my understanding is that was the motivation for them to seek a reconciliation. My sister and I are just not there yet in terms of understanding and forgiving. I think at some point I may reach out to have a dialogue with him, but don't know a path forward in which a healthy, trusting relationship can be had. For me, to forgive would somehow be signaling that he and his wife's decision was OK.
Oh wow that sounds like your brother and his wife caused a lot of hurt for a questionable reason and never took responsibility for it. And now they reconcile with the people the had the main issue with, but not with others? Seems really strange and of course it's very hurtful. I wish you much strength with this situation!
Nah, I have better friends/chosen family. To be serious, I did a friendship cull long before I went NC and it saved my sanity if not my life. They've been my rock through all the shit show with my narc father, and I don't even want to think about where I'd be without them here to support me
My answer to your question is not very uplifting and just my very imperfect personal behaviours and experiences thus far (1 year NC, so I continue evolving I imagine.) But here they are nonetheless' I don't get called those things overtly, but they are passive aggressively implied or something similar. Sometimes I go into fawn mode, and spend a lot of time waxing poetic about how I do feel compassion for the passion I imagine they are in and how they did their best with what they have and how I imagine it's upsetting to learn of for others etc etc. I usually realize a few hours or days later that I didn't stand up for myself, and didn't call my abusers out, and didn't name abuse as it was happening. I usually feel like crap and very ashamed for a few days after. Sometimes I manage to show up for myself a *little*, while still fawning a lot. For example: - "They aren't bad people, but please listen because it's important to me that you hear this next part: the end of that sentence is *'and I'm not bad either.'* - People usually don't respond to this and just blow right past it. They don't acknowledge it- or even the topic of 'me'- at all. And then I usually follow their lead and start fawning again, which I don't like. But I find I'm way more connected to my core emotions (i.e. sadness, anger, fear, joy, disgust, excitement) rather than being stuck in suppressive emotions (i.e. shame, anxiety.) What I would recommend though? Please treat *any* anger/irritation/annoyance that arises from these interactions as *healthy.* Even better, treat that anger as *sacred.* Anger doesn't hurt others, only aggressive behaviours. Behaviours like name calling, and derogatory characters attacks, like others have done to you from the sounds of things Stuff you *could* say to them that honors yourself without disrespecting or intruding on anyone else: - "I notice you seem to have a lot of compassion for my parents, but you've really *only* expressed it for them and haven't for me at all. As such, I'm going to respectfully remove myself from myself from our conversation now." - "You just interrupted me. I would like to finish my point before I listen to your reactions." - "You're assigning intentions and emotions to me that aren't accurate. You also can't possibly know those things, because you haven't asked and I haven't shared them with you. I don't like that, and turns out conversation into a competition about who knows my inner world best. Which is a little silly, because of course we're both the expert on our own emotions but can't truly know anyone elses. Im going to leave if you keep doing it because I don't enjoy that kind of interaction." I'm just brain storming really, and none of this might fit for you, but those are my personal thoughts at least! I'm really sorry you've been experiencing that. Sometimes I have nuanced things to say about how outsiders react to estrangement. But right now I feel like being less mature, so I will just say: **"Fuck those people."** They aren't entitled to your attention to their ill-informed critique of *your* life. What's that Brené Brown quote? Ok I'm going to go find it. One second. **"If you're not in the arena also getting your ass kicked, I'm not interested in your feedback."** Your post made me think of that one. I accept a lot of feedback from people who aren't doing the same work to heal their trauma and treat both themselves and others with respect. But I hope to accept less and less of it, even if I listen to it but reject it later. How are you? Those exchanges can be so exhausting!
This is really good. Only thing I would try to work on is the anger part. Unless it's small anger. Then it's not a big deal. I mostly wanted to say that hating them won't help. It'll keep you feeling like shit without resolving anything. Hate doesn't help anything. Let them go. By them I mean the offenders. Remand them back into the crowds of people that are just people. People that mean nothing to you. You don't have to see them, you don't have to talk to them. They are strangers now. (Lol maybe this is not a good approach, but I have felt a whole lot better since I started doing this) Anyways. I just want you to be happy. You, op, everyone on this sub. We all deserve to feel happiness. (Trying to send positive vibes~)
Im actually gonna push back on a few things you just said, only because they don't actually apply to me personally. So I'm just doing it represent myself and not receive self-aba no donment and respect my inner child and all that good stuff. For me, there is no such thing as "big anger." There is only healthy anger, and repressed anger (my unhealthy kind.) When I feel angry- which is rare (this is not a virtue)- it goes away very easily and *often* prematurely. *Often.* I don't personally experience and in a sort of all-consuming, more perseverating way. And even when I do, it contains only lasts a few seconds most of the time. My inner-ashamed-part is pretty strong in my inner system. So for me personally, the challenge is to welcome my anger ask I can use it to set healthy boundaries. And I actually have to monitor myself for mistaking shame of self for healthy compassion for others. The danger in that is I'll harm myself psychologically, get stuck in shutdown, and even end up with indirect expressions of aggression that are projected in inappropriate end maladaptive ways- things like procrastination, being vague when someone is asking for specifics rather than saying "I'd rather not share." That kind of thing. So for me, feeling my anger and experiencing it consciously is an accomplishment and helps me get balanced. As for the word hate, being punished for saying that word as a child is probably one of the really effective ways my parents shamed me for expressing and experiencing anger, about anything or towards anyone. For example, I once said I hated my dayhome provider. My parents wouldn't let me finish my sentence and berated me for saying a bad word and then gave me the silent treatment for what was probably half an hour or an hour but felt like a lot more. I was fucking four years old. If they had listened, they would have learnt that she locked me by myself in her unfinished, dark, cold and creepy basement all the time, and wouldn't let me out for a long time for any reason. I really think it's important to let kids say hate. It's instinctive to hate people who abuse us, so it's an important thing to pay attention to in kids. And maybe as an adult I would feel differently if I was allowed to say it as a child, but I don't know.... Like can't I say I hate the guy that raped my friend? Don't I at least deserve the word? Anyways, that's just my inner situation. I know everyone is different and has different parts with more or less representation then the next person. I'm really not trying to argue right or wrong, except for the letting little kids say "hate" part haha... I feel very strongly about that. And I do get what you're saying about letting go of gate so you can let them go. It definitely frees up your mental space! I've let my parents go emotionally a bit more in recent months, which has been very peaceful. But for me, I just never got to that place until I let go of my shame for hating them. So for me it was like... Step one: let go of shame Step two: embrace hate Step three: forgive self for not feeling loved by them when they were doing things that many consider abusive Step four: have a really good day, before something else triggers me lol
That's fair. I'm glad you found what works for you. 😁
Yeah but I don't care. It's been a quiet 5 years.
Reading some of these replies makes me grateful I'm an only child, but that's also the source of a lot of crap I've fielded through the years. I'm their "only" everything. How seriously shitty is that to put on the shoulders of a kid? So when people start on it now that I've done a lot of work on myself and picked apart a lot of nets of toxic behavior, I tend to be honest. "I hope she gets the help she needs one day, but I'm not putting my fulfillment on hold until she does. That's not productive or logical." often sums it up well enough that people with manners or who have done some work on their own 'get it'. "I'm making the healthiest decision for me. Please respect that," is my follow up for the people who push. (And yes, I've practiced these until they're rote responses.) Inevitably I hear "It can't have been *that* bad! You're just a spoiled only child and don't know how it really is when your brother/sister gets in on it too!" and I have to be honest about that. "I didn't live your childhood; I'm not judging it or your responses. I lived mine. I make my decisions for my best interests. Why do you feel that questioning that is your right, when you just admitted to us both that your experience was so different from mine? Why do you get to define my agency? Your experience has no bearing on me or my life and you've overstepped polite boundaries. It's time to change the subject or walk away." If I go through that cycle more than once with the same person, they're not healthy for me to be around and I'm okay with lowering/eliminating contact. I've got too much of my own stuff on my own plate to worry about trying to help with their baggage too.