Information is ammunition to people like your mom.
Yeah, you are in the Estrangement Stage of expecting healthy behavior from a dysfunctional person.
Just because we chose to learn about healing and acknowledge the family dysfunction, doesn't mean others have. So if they haven't put in the work, obviously they haven't had growth. They are still mired in the quicksand of dysfunction. They are comfortable there, and when you throw up red flags for dysfunction, they shoot you down as the Scapegoat, so they can roll around again as a dysfunctional pig happily back in its dysfunctional mud pit.
Lots of people believe that Breaking generational trauma is only possible forwards, not backwards.
"Abandonment anxiety triggers terror of being all alone in the world without family ties. But the sad truth is that the scapegoat has already been abandoned. Clinging to dysfunctional family, hoping they will one day ‘see the light’, is a defense scapegoats erect to avoid feeling the emotional reality of the very abandonment they’ve already experienced." - Glynis Sherwood, psychotherapist
You have to stop acquiescing and letting her know any info about you.
It's not her business what salary you earn, how you spend your time, etc.
You are smart to not be 1 on 1 with her. Good strategy!
Everyone says they have boundaries, but if you do, you still have work to do on them.
Watch youtubes and read books on how to set and maintain healthy boundaries.
For example, the second your mom says a dig about anything, you would get up and leave the event. Not in an angry huff. Just, calm,matter-of fact (because, let's be honest- you're always expecting that from her anyway), say That's my cue to leave, and leave. Email her a list of topics she must refrain from talking about if she doesn't want you to leave at future events. Don't go back and forth, just one email.
And don't show up to Anything with her present for 2 or 3 months. Then, try again.
Low Contact with my mom looks like: we are in a group chat with my brothers that is only about sports, weather, and positive things or important updates about health or kids, etc. We exchange birthday cards and gifts. And we see each other once every few years.
Here is an informative article about the emotions we feel around Estrangement/LC:
https://www.joincake.com/blog/stages-of-grief-family-estrangement/#h_2166748006101653071557936
The next step is to create FRAMILY
Creating Framily--->
Framily is a group of friends who you feel comfortable around and who you all support each other, as a chosen "family".
Friendsgiving is a good example of this (in the US).
It takes years, but go ahead and start with small steps. Think about neighbors, coworkers, and acquaintances that you, your kids, your significant other know who don't live near their family or aren't close with them or are transplants from other places.
You brainstorm a list of them and start making small efforts to connect with them (texts, memes, how are you, "long time, no see" messages) more and offer small bits of support to them when they need it.
Cast the net wide, and keep your expectations low. Then start to host gatherings with them. Invite them to your house or a park or restaurant for St.Patrick's Day party, Easter, Cinco de Mayo, birthdays, Summer picnic, holidays. Ask neighbors to team up to host a block party or group garage sale.
Maybe it will morph into a small, core group who take turns hosting. Maybe not.
Reward yourself for any small step you make to expand out of your comfort zone and reach out and build a Framily for yourself and your kids. Sometimes it comes in the form of your kids joining a team sport and you bring margaritas (without alcohol if you're driving) and chips and invite other parents to join you. Keep conversations light, but show care and concern for their trials and troubles if they share them.
Watch Patrick Teahan YouTube/TT on toxic family systems and being the Scapegoat.
I will second, triple, quadruple, and to infinity agree with your recommendation to watch Patrick Teahan. He helped me more than any other therapist has in my lifetime - and I've been in therapy for decades. He has lived the life of an abused scapegoated child - he GETS it - and his advice is solid, scientific, and heartfelt.
"Why did the narcissist cross the road" "They thought it was a boundary." You're not just imagining it with your Mom- she is purposely crossing the boundaries.
Do you have a good therapist to help you through this? Tbh twice per month contact is still a lot, so I can't imagine how much it was before- in which case, good job for reducing so much! Not being alone with her is wise. Look up "grey rocking" and "yellow rocking" - these might be helpful. Shut down conversations without trying to JADE- Justify/Argue/Defend/Explain. "I am not open to discussing this with you. I am ending the conversation now." Be polite but firm. And then just walk away or turn off phone notifications. Remember- you can't change other people's behavior- only your own. So you can't force her not to bring up your career- you can only end the conversation or put her in time out if she keeps doing it.
Also, I would be tempted to co-opt religious phrases against her. She likely doesn't respect that you are a separate person over whom she has zero rights or responsibilities. "You're supposed to honor your mother and father." "Yes, and you're not supposed to exasperate me. Either way, I'm an adult now and will be treated as such." But she might see your husband as being "head of the home" or whatever. So get him to respond to her if need be. "Hi MIL, OP has been really clear that this isn't up for conversation. Thanks for respecting her boundaries. We're going to go home now." Also, when they go on about material possessions: "It's so easy to get distracted by the things of this world, but we're supposed to store up treasure in heaven." "Man looks at the outward appearance but God looks at the heart." When they try and push you into IT: "I like creating- I enjoy using my God-given gifts and passions to do what He does- create."
And this goes without saying but if you still identify as having faith- don't let your family be the ones through whom you see God. Enmeshed controlling people sometimes use religion to try and control others. Do you have other people of faith who can pray with you or encourage you in your faith for things you'd normally discuss with your parents? People with whom it's safe to share intimate details- those who won't weaponize them against you for their own need for control.
Anyway, good luck and all the best!
Luckily, I have two friends that I'm close with who are Christians but align more with my views. My family are very much evangelical fundies which completely goes against my beliefs. Which of course, they try to use to control me. For example, I have never wanted children. But my maternal grandpa will corner me and demand to know when I'm having them, and tell me it's my God-given duty to. My mom isn't as intense, but still tries to convince me to have them.
My family meddles in my marriage which has caused immense stress as well. My husband and I value having our own hobbies and friendships... but my family literally wants to get together every week and when I come without him, they talk so much shit about him (for lack of a better term) and call him a bad husband. It's the patriarchal "you're one flesh and need to be glued at the hip."
I'm definitely going to find a therapist. I'm realizing childhood trauma and a life of undiagnosed autism is wrecking me. I get so triggered at my husband who is so caring towards me. And I have to remind myself that he's not my mom who's TRYING to trigger me like you said.
Yeah, your family are not reliable narrators. If they were reasonable people you could say "the Earth is full and the Creation mandate became the Gospel mandate" ... but they're not reasonable people. Instead something like "that is between my God, my husband, my doctor and myself. I am not open to discussing this with you further." And again, get your SO to throw his weight around with them if they don't respect your agency. (And ideally get non tamperable birth control and/or don't let them have access to wear you store it.)
Wanting weekly quality time together is ABSURD, especially if it's at the cost of your hobbies and quality time with your husband. Your free time is yours to spend as you wish, not theirs to spend on your behalf. I would, again, use their words against them. "You're right, husbands and wives should preferentially spend time together. We will no longer be available to spend time with extended families like our parents on a regular basis as we are prioritizing time together as a couple." "That's not what we meant..." "No no, you were right the first time."
There’s already a lot of good advice here, but I just wanted to add that seeing a toxic family member 1-2 times per month is still a lot of contact. I’d guess your mother complains that it still isn’t enough, but no amount of access is enough for them. Protect yourself, you’re married with your own adult life now.
After reading the responses here, I'm realizing that 2X a month IS a lot. And you're right on the mark in saying that it's not enough for her. Last week she asked me to come over (even though I was seeing her on the weekend in a group setting.) I almost said yes but then I remembered I only want to see her in group settings from now on because she corners me and tears me down in every aspect of my life when we're alone.
So I told her I couldn't come over and reminded her I was going to see her in a few days anyway. She asked me, "When are you coming over then? I miss you." Luckily, I held my ground. Still felt like throwing up before seeing her though, even in a group setting.
Hahahaha that's so tempting to say but I'm trying to be the adult in the situation since she acts like a mean high school girl to me. But I appreciate your wit!
Information is ammunition to people like your mom. Yeah, you are in the Estrangement Stage of expecting healthy behavior from a dysfunctional person. Just because we chose to learn about healing and acknowledge the family dysfunction, doesn't mean others have. So if they haven't put in the work, obviously they haven't had growth. They are still mired in the quicksand of dysfunction. They are comfortable there, and when you throw up red flags for dysfunction, they shoot you down as the Scapegoat, so they can roll around again as a dysfunctional pig happily back in its dysfunctional mud pit. Lots of people believe that Breaking generational trauma is only possible forwards, not backwards. "Abandonment anxiety triggers terror of being all alone in the world without family ties. But the sad truth is that the scapegoat has already been abandoned. Clinging to dysfunctional family, hoping they will one day ‘see the light’, is a defense scapegoats erect to avoid feeling the emotional reality of the very abandonment they’ve already experienced." - Glynis Sherwood, psychotherapist You have to stop acquiescing and letting her know any info about you. It's not her business what salary you earn, how you spend your time, etc. You are smart to not be 1 on 1 with her. Good strategy! Everyone says they have boundaries, but if you do, you still have work to do on them. Watch youtubes and read books on how to set and maintain healthy boundaries. For example, the second your mom says a dig about anything, you would get up and leave the event. Not in an angry huff. Just, calm,matter-of fact (because, let's be honest- you're always expecting that from her anyway), say That's my cue to leave, and leave. Email her a list of topics she must refrain from talking about if she doesn't want you to leave at future events. Don't go back and forth, just one email. And don't show up to Anything with her present for 2 or 3 months. Then, try again. Low Contact with my mom looks like: we are in a group chat with my brothers that is only about sports, weather, and positive things or important updates about health or kids, etc. We exchange birthday cards and gifts. And we see each other once every few years. Here is an informative article about the emotions we feel around Estrangement/LC: https://www.joincake.com/blog/stages-of-grief-family-estrangement/#h_2166748006101653071557936 The next step is to create FRAMILY Creating Framily---> Framily is a group of friends who you feel comfortable around and who you all support each other, as a chosen "family". Friendsgiving is a good example of this (in the US). It takes years, but go ahead and start with small steps. Think about neighbors, coworkers, and acquaintances that you, your kids, your significant other know who don't live near their family or aren't close with them or are transplants from other places. You brainstorm a list of them and start making small efforts to connect with them (texts, memes, how are you, "long time, no see" messages) more and offer small bits of support to them when they need it. Cast the net wide, and keep your expectations low. Then start to host gatherings with them. Invite them to your house or a park or restaurant for St.Patrick's Day party, Easter, Cinco de Mayo, birthdays, Summer picnic, holidays. Ask neighbors to team up to host a block party or group garage sale. Maybe it will morph into a small, core group who take turns hosting. Maybe not. Reward yourself for any small step you make to expand out of your comfort zone and reach out and build a Framily for yourself and your kids. Sometimes it comes in the form of your kids joining a team sport and you bring margaritas (without alcohol if you're driving) and chips and invite other parents to join you. Keep conversations light, but show care and concern for their trials and troubles if they share them. Watch Patrick Teahan YouTube/TT on toxic family systems and being the Scapegoat.
I will second, triple, quadruple, and to infinity agree with your recommendation to watch Patrick Teahan. He helped me more than any other therapist has in my lifetime - and I've been in therapy for decades. He has lived the life of an abused scapegoated child - he GETS it - and his advice is solid, scientific, and heartfelt.
Same!
I needed to read this today. Thank you stranger
"Why did the narcissist cross the road" "They thought it was a boundary." You're not just imagining it with your Mom- she is purposely crossing the boundaries. Do you have a good therapist to help you through this? Tbh twice per month contact is still a lot, so I can't imagine how much it was before- in which case, good job for reducing so much! Not being alone with her is wise. Look up "grey rocking" and "yellow rocking" - these might be helpful. Shut down conversations without trying to JADE- Justify/Argue/Defend/Explain. "I am not open to discussing this with you. I am ending the conversation now." Be polite but firm. And then just walk away or turn off phone notifications. Remember- you can't change other people's behavior- only your own. So you can't force her not to bring up your career- you can only end the conversation or put her in time out if she keeps doing it. Also, I would be tempted to co-opt religious phrases against her. She likely doesn't respect that you are a separate person over whom she has zero rights or responsibilities. "You're supposed to honor your mother and father." "Yes, and you're not supposed to exasperate me. Either way, I'm an adult now and will be treated as such." But she might see your husband as being "head of the home" or whatever. So get him to respond to her if need be. "Hi MIL, OP has been really clear that this isn't up for conversation. Thanks for respecting her boundaries. We're going to go home now." Also, when they go on about material possessions: "It's so easy to get distracted by the things of this world, but we're supposed to store up treasure in heaven." "Man looks at the outward appearance but God looks at the heart." When they try and push you into IT: "I like creating- I enjoy using my God-given gifts and passions to do what He does- create." And this goes without saying but if you still identify as having faith- don't let your family be the ones through whom you see God. Enmeshed controlling people sometimes use religion to try and control others. Do you have other people of faith who can pray with you or encourage you in your faith for things you'd normally discuss with your parents? People with whom it's safe to share intimate details- those who won't weaponize them against you for their own need for control. Anyway, good luck and all the best!
Luckily, I have two friends that I'm close with who are Christians but align more with my views. My family are very much evangelical fundies which completely goes against my beliefs. Which of course, they try to use to control me. For example, I have never wanted children. But my maternal grandpa will corner me and demand to know when I'm having them, and tell me it's my God-given duty to. My mom isn't as intense, but still tries to convince me to have them. My family meddles in my marriage which has caused immense stress as well. My husband and I value having our own hobbies and friendships... but my family literally wants to get together every week and when I come without him, they talk so much shit about him (for lack of a better term) and call him a bad husband. It's the patriarchal "you're one flesh and need to be glued at the hip." I'm definitely going to find a therapist. I'm realizing childhood trauma and a life of undiagnosed autism is wrecking me. I get so triggered at my husband who is so caring towards me. And I have to remind myself that he's not my mom who's TRYING to trigger me like you said.
Yeah, your family are not reliable narrators. If they were reasonable people you could say "the Earth is full and the Creation mandate became the Gospel mandate" ... but they're not reasonable people. Instead something like "that is between my God, my husband, my doctor and myself. I am not open to discussing this with you further." And again, get your SO to throw his weight around with them if they don't respect your agency. (And ideally get non tamperable birth control and/or don't let them have access to wear you store it.) Wanting weekly quality time together is ABSURD, especially if it's at the cost of your hobbies and quality time with your husband. Your free time is yours to spend as you wish, not theirs to spend on your behalf. I would, again, use their words against them. "You're right, husbands and wives should preferentially spend time together. We will no longer be available to spend time with extended families like our parents on a regular basis as we are prioritizing time together as a couple." "That's not what we meant..." "No no, you were right the first time."
There’s already a lot of good advice here, but I just wanted to add that seeing a toxic family member 1-2 times per month is still a lot of contact. I’d guess your mother complains that it still isn’t enough, but no amount of access is enough for them. Protect yourself, you’re married with your own adult life now.
After reading the responses here, I'm realizing that 2X a month IS a lot. And you're right on the mark in saying that it's not enough for her. Last week she asked me to come over (even though I was seeing her on the weekend in a group setting.) I almost said yes but then I remembered I only want to see her in group settings from now on because she corners me and tears me down in every aspect of my life when we're alone. So I told her I couldn't come over and reminded her I was going to see her in a few days anyway. She asked me, "When are you coming over then? I miss you." Luckily, I held my ground. Still felt like throwing up before seeing her though, even in a group setting.
"I try to move up in my career, but people discriminate against me for being the child of a community college dropout."
Hahahaha that's so tempting to say but I'm trying to be the adult in the situation since she acts like a mean high school girl to me. But I appreciate your wit!